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Tue Dec 18, 2012, 09:28 PM

 

So it all begins: DWI for pot even though driver not at fault....

I-502 In Action: Cops Say Driver 'Technically At Fault' Because He Had THC In His System

Before Washington state "marijuana legalization" Initiative 502 passed last month, some in the community, Toke of the Town included, publicly worried about the fallout from the measure's section on driving under the influence of cannabis. It appears those concerns were not groundless -- a driver, not at fault in a fatal accident, has been charged with DUI-marijuana in a deadly crash which ended the life of a pedestrian.

According to the Vancouver Police Department, this is probably the first deadly crash involving marijuana since it became legal in Washington. The driver was not at fault, but was charged anyway, since police "believed him to be under the influence of marijuana."

The victim, a male in his 50s, was believed to have been walking back home from a grocery store and stepped out into the middle of traffic around 5:50 p.m. at East Mill Boulevard and Andresen Road on Monday, according to police.

Officials said the victim was close to two different lit and controlled intersections, "but chose to step out into the middle of traffic, which would clearly put him at fault," reports KPTV.

But because the cops at the scene of the accident "believed" driver Scott Rowles to be "under the influence of marijuana," he was charged with DUI anyway. If his blood test shows that he was over five nanograms per milliliter (5 ng/ml) THC blood level, he will be considered automatically guilty; that's the legal effect of an arbitrarily set "per se" THC limit, as unscientific and as unfair it may be.


MORE AT LINK:

http://www.tokeofthetown.com/2012/12/so_it_begins_not-at-fault_driver_charged_with_mari.php

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Reply So it all begins: DWI for pot even though driver not at fault.... (Original post)
Bennyboy Dec 2012 OP
Lil Missy Dec 2012 #1
morningfog Dec 2012 #8
Lil Missy Dec 2012 #23
morningfog Dec 2012 #41
qazplm Dec 2012 #128
kestrel91316 Dec 2012 #133
pnwmom Dec 2012 #145
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Response to Bennyboy (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 09:32 PM

1. Same thing would happen with alcohol, why should pot be different?

Note he was only charged with DUI (which he was) and not vehicular homicide.

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Response to Lil Missy (Reply #1)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 09:54 PM

8. The two drugs are completely different with respect to how long they can be dected in your body.

THC remains long after any effects.

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Response to morningfog (Reply #8)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 01:29 AM

23. he was judged to be under the influence "at the scene", which means

he must have appeared to be impaired.

On the flip side, are you suggesting that a stoned driver should get a free pass?

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Response to Lil Missy (Reply #23)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 10:43 AM

41. I'm suggesting THC in the blood does not an impaired driver prove.

Which is why he was given the DUI.

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Response to morningfog (Reply #41)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 12:49 PM

128. well he hasn't been given anything yet

there's the whole court thing...so if he can prove he wasn't under the influence, and he gets a fair trial (which is always a consideration in any case) then he can get acquitted.

But yes, if you are going to smoke marijuana, just like if you are going to drink alcohol, then you probably shouldn't get anywhere near a car until well after.

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Response to qazplm (Reply #128)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 02:16 PM

133. Most of us DON'T. But it stays in the blood for A MONTH after use.

The effects only last a few hours.

So blood tests and actual impairment bear virtually no relationship to each other.

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Response to morningfog (Reply #41)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 04:26 PM

145. What does? He failed the sobriety tests at the scene.

If he admitted to drinking and failed sobriety tests, would you be against blood tests, too?

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Response to morningfog (Reply #41)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 08:56 PM

161. It's against the law to drive under the influence. Whether you cause an accident or not. nt

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Response to morningfog (Reply #41)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 06:31 PM

202. If he was not impaired, then "and so it begins," indeed--the medical establishment will have

to do a better job of determining what levels constitute impairment, now.

Previous to this, all they needed to determine was "presence."

Sounds like a great test case, to get the ball rolling. Unless, of course, the cops smelled a little weed about the guy, and they had an actual reason to wonder if he was impaired, because he was...

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Response to morningfog (Reply #8)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:36 AM

51. Yes, but they are testing for a specific level

which is not going to be around for very long after major use, and which has been shown to be associated with greater driving risk.

This test is completely different from a standard type of drug screening test used by companies, which will indeed show "positive" long after use.

From a link another person posted:
http://www.newapproachwa.org/sites/newapproachwa.org/files/I-502%20Backgrounder%20-%20Science%20Behind%20the%20Per%20Se%20-%20092912%202.pdf

“For drivers with blood THC concentrations of 5 ng/ml or higher the odds ratio was greater and more
statistically significant (OR 6.6, 95% CI 1.5–28.0). The estimated odds ratio is greater than that for drivers
with a blood alcohol concentration (BAC) of 0.10–0.15% (OR 3.7, 95% CI 1.5–9.1).” Drummer, O. H.,
Gerostamoulos, J., Batziris, H., Chu, M., Caplehorn, J., Robertson, M. D., & Swann, P. (2004). The
involvement of drugs in drivers killed in Australian road traffic crashes. Accident, Analysis and Prevention,
36(2):239-248.


What they are testing for is a blood limit that appeared to produce worse driving results than a blood alcohol content of 0.10% - 0.15%.

The good news is that even a heavy marijuana smoker wouldn't test at those levels the day after smoking, and almost certainly wouldn't test at those levels 6-8 hours after use.

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Response to morningfog (Reply #8)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:08 PM

74. And that is precisely why a cheap, accurate, non-invasive field test MUST be developed

It protects the smoker and society.

I am 1000% for across the board, nation-wide, full legalization the day AFTER that is accomplished.

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Response to Lil Missy (Reply #1)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 10:12 PM

17. because THC can stay in your system for more than a few hours.

upwards of 40 days at the max end.

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Response to JesterCS (Reply #17)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 01:45 AM

24. it was determined at the scene that he was "under the influence",

that's how I read this. As though he was obviously impaired at the scene of the accident.

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Response to Lil Missy (Reply #24)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 02:03 AM

25. Determined by whom?

 

Oh yeah, the cops! Bwahahaha

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Response to Lil Missy (Reply #24)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 10:51 AM

43. The article says nothing about how that determination was made.

It could have been that they smelled weed and found some in his car. They may have smelled it on him. Without more details, you can't jump to the conclusion that he was obviously impaired at the scene.

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Response to Lil Missy (Reply #24)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:02 PM

80. There is a big difference between judging someone to being high and proving it

Tests for the presence of THC don't show that someone was high at a particular time, but rather that they were under the influence some time in the past 4-6 weeks. There's nothing analogous to a brethalyzer.

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Response to Lil Missy (Reply #24)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 09:49 AM

168. the determination is this "The officers believed."

no other test was administered at the arrest, as I recall from the original article I read about this incident.

There will be a flurry of these as the states try to figure out their responsibilities and limitations and I fear as you imply that police corruption and/or desire for revenue will cause a spike in DWI arrests.

This is quite predictable. I'm sure the MJ lawyers will be on this & other cases to curb abuses of the system.--but it will take a long time.

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Response to JesterCS (Reply #17)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 02:26 AM

29. But it wouldn't cause you to fail the physical sobriety tests for 40 days.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #29)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 06:20 PM

155. Some people can't pass the field sobriety test when they are perfectly sober.

 

For example, some have poor balance due to illnesses. Others, such as some dyslexics can't recite the alphabet forwards or backwards. I am not sure that there exists other conditions that could cause such failures while normal.

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Response to Yavapai (Reply #155)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 08:53 PM

160. True, and I'm guessing I'm one of them. So I'd be extra careful

to make sure I didn't drive if I'd smoked recently, or if I was a chronic user who might have chronically high blood levels.

If someone already has issues with balance or physical coordination, putting pot in the system before driving isn't a great idea.

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Response to Bennyboy (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 09:33 PM

2. k & r! nt

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Response to Bennyboy (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 09:34 PM

3. They finally have a marijana related death. It took a legalization bill to accomplish that.

He probably wasn't stoned enough. A few more tokes and he would have been going slower and maybe a little paranoid, looking around more. He might have spotted the guy in time.

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Response to Bennyboy (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 09:39 PM

4. you thought police would give up any of their welfare drug money without a fight? nt

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Response to msongs (Reply #4)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 09:46 PM

5. Spot on, msongs. Expect a lot more of this bullshit.

It's crazy, out here (NorCal).

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Response to msongs (Reply #4)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 10:02 PM

13. +1!

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Response to Bennyboy (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 09:52 PM

6. And this is wrong because.....?

DUI is DUI. If there was THC in his blood stream he should not have been driving. I would expect to receive a ticket if I was over the legal alcohol limit and had the same thing happen to me.

Is it the lack of definition of a legal limit of THC or a scientifically reliable method to determine the level that upsets you?

From my standpoint - I do not want to share the road with anyone who is drunk or high.

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Response to Generic Brad (Reply #6)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 09:57 PM

10. THC remains in the blood long after any effects.

Someone can have THC in the blood for weeks after getting high one time. It is not an indicator that the person is intoxicated. It would be like if you drank 4 beers at dinner tonight and got charged with a DUI two weeks from now and had drank nothing in between. Totally different.

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Response to morningfog (Reply #10)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 02:27 AM

30. But it wouldn't remain at that level for weeks, at least for occasional users.

Chronic users are the ones who might have a problem, from what I've read.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #30)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 10:46 AM

42. It stays at varying levels for varying users.

THere are a lot of variables. How much you smoked, how often, how long since the last time, amount of body fat, amount of exercise you do, hydration levels, etc.

The point is, even if it were a chronic user, THC in the blood or urine at any level is not an indicator of intoxication.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #30)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 10:57 AM

46. Anyone, I smoked some swag at 7:30 this morning...

two and a half hours later I can guarantee you any effects are long gone but my blood would tell a different story

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #30)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:11 AM

102. One cannot state that with any certainty.

Until real research and studies are done (as was with alcohol and driving impairment to get the .08 limit) with THC, there is no evidence to support any position on the subject.

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Response to Generic Brad (Reply #6)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 09:58 PM

11. You share the road with impaired drivers much more often than not.

 


At my place of employment, they don't think twice about putting drivers on the road after an 18 hour shift.

Having experienced marijuana, I will tell you in all honesty, that alcohol is not a fair comparison. Sleep deprivation would more closely approximate the influence of marijuana than alcohol.

If you are willing to share the road with sleep deprived drivers, then you shouldn't have an issue with marijuana.


I would also add that I believe the body chemistry likely changes when a person is deprived of sleep. Someone with expertise prove me wrong. Perhaps all drivers should be tested for that as well?

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Response to mick063 (Reply #11)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:28 PM

56. Sleep deprivation can actually be the most deadly of all.

Of course, as with anything, the amount is key as well. I saw a study where sober drivers, drivers who have had a .1 BAC, drivers who had no sleep for 24 hours and drivers who had just smoked a joint where compared. The sober drivers and joint drivers were pretty much equal at the top of the back. Then came the .1 BAC drivers at a distant third and the sleep deprived drivers came a fair bit behind the drunk ones. Sleep deprivation can really turn you into a different person.

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Response to mick063 (Reply #11)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:29 PM

58. Completely fucking wrong.

I don't want to share the road with ANY impaired drivers. I don't give a fuck how they're impaired.

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Response to Generic Brad (Reply #6)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 10:04 PM

14. Because of a lot of reasons.....

 

One is there is not testing whatsoever that suggest that any amuont of pot is more harmful than fast food and cell phones. n some testing, done in other countries of course due to scheduling in the US that do not allow for any testing at all to be done. suggest that in some people, males under 30 especially, it is beneficial. (Slows them down and makes them more ware)

Pot is NOT ALCOHOL. It's effects are NOTHING AT ALL LIKE ALCOHOL. It does not affect your reaction time, your motor skills etc. It is a mind expansion thing and personally I would prefer that people's minds were expanded a bit when it comes to driving.

The number is arbitrary, not based in science. I guarantee, that after i wake up I will have that much in my blood stream. it is nothing at all and does not have any basis in science or testing. And now the cops will be testing everyone that gets pulled or has an accident.





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Response to Bennyboy (Reply #14)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 10:08 PM

16. That is an excellent response

Thank you.

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Response to Bennyboy (Reply #14)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 10:16 PM

18. That was part of the initiative.

The voters approved it and while it is totally arbitrary it is now the the law. Too bad nobody questioned this before approving it.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #18)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 10:36 PM

19. plenty of people questioned it prior to it's passing

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Response to frylock (Reply #19)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 02:36 AM

33. I wouldn't have voted for it without some limit.

Having been in a car with people who were high (a long time ago), I disagree with those who think it has no effect on driving skills.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #18)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:14 AM

105. It was questioned, and this arrest was anticipated.

Both NORML and the ACLU stated that they knew this would happen, and that the limit set by I-502 had no scientific basis at all, and that fact alone will get it overturned.

Legalizing pot was more important than squabbling over an arbitrary limit that can be argued as invalid by any 1st year lawyer.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #105)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:51 AM

120. You are being optimistic.

Judges don't overrule limits that have been set by law because they are "unscientific". The 0.08 limit on alcohol is arbitrary also. Many experienced drinkers are just fine at 0.12 while someone inexperienced is trashed at 0.03. In general men can handle higher limits than women. People who are heavier can handle higher limits than people who are light. But a line is set by law and the courts follow it. I would love to see the legal precedent the ACLU plans to use.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #120)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 12:44 PM

123. Indeed, I am, and for good reason.

I attended a legal symposium hosted by NORML and the ACLU this past summer where this scenario was THE topic being discussed.
While my summation is elementary at best, it does represent the concensus of legal experts. NORML and the ACLU both stated that they would be providing legal assistance to the first cases. We will see what happens, I guess.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #123)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 04:07 PM

139. If it is true that Scott Rowles failed the sobriety test and admitted to smoking

within 90 minutes of the accident, as the police reports say, do you still think the ACLU will have a good case?

I think they'd wait for a better opportunity to go after this law.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #139)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 05:44 PM

153. If that is the case, I see no way for him to be acquitted.

Not would I want him to be, if that is how it happened.

No one, especially me, is advocating driving while high, but having the ability to fail a blood test hours, days, even weeks after using is rediculous.

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Response to Bennyboy (Reply #14)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 02:32 AM

31. Even smoking one modern marijuana cigarette reduces reaction time by 40%.

I voted for legalization, but I don't think people who are high on pot should be driving.

From the University of Oregon:

http://uodos.uoregon.edu/SupportandEducation/SubstanceAbusePreventionandStudentSuccess/MarijuanaDidYouKnow/tabid/84/Default.aspx

Today's marijuana is 10 to 15 times stronger than it was in the 60's.

Reaction time for motor skills, such as driving is reduced by 41% after smoking 1 joint and is reduced 63% after smoking 2 joints.

Data has shown that people high on marijuana show the same lack of coordination on standard "drunk driver" tests as do people who have had to much to drink.

The daily use of 1 to 3 marijuana joints can produce the same lung damage and potential cancer risk as smoking five times as many cigarettes.

Marijuana is the second most common drug, after alcohol, present in the blood stream of non-fatally and fatally injured persons.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #31)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:34 PM

59. There's TONS of misinformation at that link, some might call them lies.

Regarding today's MJ being 10 to 15x more potent, well that's just ludicrous. The most potent bud today contains about 25% THC. And while that is pretty damned potent, it's certainly not anywhere near 10x as potent as the stuff from the 60s. Today the great bulk of the stuff you see is about 4%, the same as the great bulk of stuff in the 60s. Of course, you could still get the really good stuff like Thai Stick in the 60s and that was far closer to the 20+% we see today in the well bred strains. Also, it's incredibly stupid to think that more potent MJ is a bad thing. More potent simply means that people stop smoking quicker, yes? People are capable of self titration if you weren't aware.

Also, there's just tons of bullshit in that link with absolutely NOTHING in terms of data to back it up. I've heard that cancer risk bullshit over and over again, yet the actual scientific studies show that cannabinoids have an ANTIcarcinogenic effect, even when smoked. Your link is just loaded with ridiculous bullshit.

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Response to EOTE (Reply #59)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:48 AM

91. US Government patent #6,630,507

 

Cannabinoids as antioxidants and neuroprotectants

Cannabinoids have been found to have antioxidant properties, unrelated to NMDA receptor antagonism. This new found property makes cannabinoids useful in the treatment and prophylaxis of wide variety of oxidation associated diseases, such as ischemic, age-related, inflammatory and autoimmune diseases. The cannabinoids are found to have particular application as neuroprotectants, for example in limiting neurological damage following ischemic insults, such as stroke and trauma, or in the treatment of neurodegenerative diseases, such as Alzheimer's disease, Parkinson's disease and HIV dementia....

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=6630507.PN.&OS=PN/6630507&RS=PN/6630507

While the Feds bust dispensaries they patented the use of the main ingredient.

They have to protect their patent after all!

You'd think a reporter could ask once in a while about this but apparently they're too used to reading press releases

An Oakland Attorney gets it:

Oakland cites surprise medical pot backer

In papers filed late Tuesday with the magistrate who is considering the fate of the Harborside Health Center, lawyers for Oakland said patent and research records reveal that "the government believes in the medical efficacy of cannabis" - contrary to the Justice Department's insistence that marijuana is a dangerous drug with no legitimate use.

Cedric Chao, a lawyer for the city, cited a 2003 patent application by the U.S. government that said cannabis compounds are "useful in the treatment and prophylaxis (prevention) of a wide variety of oxidation-associated diseases," including certain types of strokes and immune-system disorders.

http://www.sfgate.com/default/article/Oakland-cites-surprise-medical-pot-backer-4113767.php

*Note that the article said "application" and not that it was awarded

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #31)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:16 AM

108. Nonsense.

The Dean of Students at UofO is just peddling anti-pot propaganda. Those same "studies" he refers to can be used to show exactly the opposite of what is stated on that page.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #108)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:21 AM

109. So which side do you think it's safest to come down on?

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Response to randome (Reply #109)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:26 AM

114. On the side of science.

Real studies and research need to be done to determine impairment at the time of the accident or incident (just like we have for alcohol).

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #114)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:29 AM

117. You just said the same studies can be interpreted differently.

I would rather cops erred on the side of caution, especially when someone, as the driver is alleged to have done, show evidence of impairment.

We don't know what 'impairment' the cop referred to so it's all speculation at this point.

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Response to randome (Reply #117)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:48 AM

119. No, we need real studies. New ones, that use the scientific method to determine blood level

impairment.

Please do not misconstrue what i have stated.

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Response to Bennyboy (Reply #14)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 02:39 AM

36. There aren't studies

Because it wasn't legal before. Marijuana impairs cognitive functioning. Using it as a legal substance does not absolve people of responsibility.

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Response to Bennyboy (Reply #14)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:28 AM

50. Pot does affect your motor reactions

http://www.parl.gc.ca/Content/SEN/Committee/371/ille/library/Wheelock-e.pdf
The main potential adverse acute effects of cannabis use arise from its effects on psychomotor performance. Intoxication produces dose-related impairments in a wide range of cognitive and behavioural functions that are relevant to a skilled performance such as driving an automobile or operating machinery104. These include slowed reaction time and information processing, impaired perceptual/motor coordination and motor performance, impaired short-term memory, attention, signal detection and tracking
behaviour, and slowed time perception 105.


The reason why is contained in the full report, which was done for the Canadian Parliament.

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Response to Yo_Mama (Reply #50)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:14 PM

75. Thanks. I voted for legalization in Washington,

and the reason I felt comfortable was because of the blood level tests and the research I'd read about it.

No one wants more impaired drivers on the roads.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #75)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 08:44 PM

78. Right - drink or toke at home

But don't mix it with driving.

I think a lot of people in WA state voted for the legalization because of the DUI measures - which do seem to be an attempt to only detect people who are truly slammed while driving.

Surely legalization with some safeguards is better than the alternative?

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Response to Yo_Mama (Reply #50)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 12:47 PM

125. No one should be saying it doesn't, and that is not the issue.

The issue is the objective ability to determine if a person is impaired and unable to operate a motor vehicle. The limit set in I-502 does not represent that ability at all. That is the issue.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #125)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 04:09 PM

140. Do you not believe in sobriety tests either? For any drivers, or just for possibly

stoned ones?

Because this driver failed a sobriety test, according to the police. And he admitted to recent use.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #140)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 05:46 PM

154. You and I have several subtreads going.

I'm gonna end this one, I think I answered your questions is another.

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Response to Bennyboy (Reply #14)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 10:07 AM

175. My THC content stays at 200 nanograms

I took a drug test in Albama, at ten in the morning, had not smoked all night because I was sleeping. The report came back I was 50 times over the legal DOT cut off limit. I have neuropathy and I use marijuana lots daily. I am not impaired at all. Now my buddy who hadn't smoked in lets say a month, would probably be quite high after 2 tokes for an hour. A DUI test for marijuana means nothing to me, but revenue.

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Response to Generic Brad (Reply #6)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 10:04 PM

15. People shouldn't drive for 30 days after getting high?

That's harsh, but I guess that's fat solubility for you.

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Response to Generic Brad (Reply #6)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 10:15 AM

177. Thats rediculous. Seriously , educate yourself.

THC can be detected for quite a long time after use that does not mean the person is impaired.

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Response to Bennyboy (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 09:53 PM

7. This hasn't run it's legal course yet.

 



We have to see how the courts handle this. Since this is a precendent setting case, I would hope that there is some money behind it as well as some a preconceived defense awaiting such a predictable event. Tackling this type of case should have been thought out in advance as well as financed.


If this man is left on an island, a lot of effort will go down the drain. Hopefully the legal response is proactive as opposed to reactionary.

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Response to Bennyboy (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 09:56 PM

9. If you drive under the influence,

You should be charged and arrested, and automatically lose the privilege of driving. There simply is no excuse for driving while impaired. My heart does not bleed.

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Response to djg21 (Reply #9)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 10:37 PM

20. and if you get in an accident a few weeks after having a couple of beers..

then you should also be charged with DUI.

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Response to frylock (Reply #20)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 02:37 AM

34. Why should the level be this high if the person hasn't smoked in a few weeks? n/t

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #34)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 10:53 AM

44. It could be this high from smoking yesterday or even early in the morning to night.

There are far too many variables for this to ever be a reliable indicator of intoxication.

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Response to morningfog (Reply #44)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 05:59 PM

71. Not according to the research that supported this limit,

that the YES on 502 pro-legalization group campaigned on.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #34)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:36 PM

60. You should educate yourself on the matter before blindly providing ridiculous links.

THC is very fat soluble and stays in your body for MANY days after consumption. There are also many factors which determine how long it will stay there. One person could smoke two weeks ago and have a much higher level of metabolites in their system than someone who smoked very recently.

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Response to EOTE (Reply #60)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 05:52 PM

68. You should educate yourself on the research that supports the law's blood levels.

This is from the YES on 502 campaign -- the group supporting legalization in Washington.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2027925

And here's another link to information that might educate you, from another pro-legalization source.

http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2012/02/24/sorry-medical-marijuana-activists-your-study-doesnt-prove-that-i-502-will-nab-sober-drivers-for-duis/

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Response to Bennyboy (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 10:00 PM

12. The driver may have been charged regardless...

In Wisconsin, we have a moving violation called "Inattentive Driving"

(1) No person while driving a motor vehicle shall be so engaged or occupied as to interfere with the safe driving of such vehicle.

It's the ticket they give you when they can't think of an actual violation. A few years back, a kid on a bike came out of nowhere and hit my car broadside while I was going through an intersection. The officer didn't cite me, but said that if his Sergeant make a stink or the kid's family complained, he might still have to cite me for inattentive driving.

In some jurisdictions, there's presumption that pedestrians and cyclists (but especially pedestrians) are never at fault.

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Response to Bennyboy (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 10:41 PM

21. Some science...............

 

Marijuana and Driving: A Review of the Scientific Evidence

Cannabis and Driving
STATE DUID LAWS

It is well established that alcohol increases accident risk. Evidence of marijuana’s culpability in on-road driving accidents is much less convincing.

Although cannabis intoxication has been shown to mildly impair psychomotor skills, this impairment does not appear to be severe or long lasting. In driving simulator tests, this impairment is typically manifested by subjects decreasing their driving speed and requiring greater time to respond to emergency situations.

Nevertheless, this impairment does not appear to play a significant role in on-road traffic accidents. A 2002 review of seven separate studies involving 7,934 drivers reported, “Crash culpability studies have failed to demonstrate that drivers with cannabinoids in the blood are significantly more likely than drug-free drivers to be culpable in road crashes.” This result is likely because subject under the influence of marijuana are aware of their impairment and compensate for it accordingly, such as by slowing down and by focusing their attention when they know a response will be required. This reaction is just the opposite of that exhibited by drivers under the influence of alcohol, who tend to drive in a more risky manner proportional to their intoxication.

Today, a large body of research exists exploring the impact of marijuana on psychomotor skills and actual driving performance. This research consists of driving simulator studies, on-road performance studies, crash culpability studies, and summary reviews of the existing evidence. To date, the result of this research is fairly consistent: Marijuana has a measurable yet relatively mild effect on psychomotor skills, yet it does not appear to play a significant role in vehicle crashes, particularly when compared to alcohol. Below is a summary of some of the existing data.

MORE AT LINK: http://norml.org/library/item/marijuana-and-driving-a-review-of-the-scientific-evidence

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Response to Bennyboy (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 11:10 PM

22. How long can THC stay in your blood?

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Response to B Calm (Reply #22)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 02:12 AM

26. it's never NOT in a regular user's blood.

literally, weeks.

and the measurement of THC in blood is not an indicator of impairment. we simply need a roadside impairment test. problem is, we'd then have to bust ALL impaired drivers, even if their impairment is just stupidity.

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Response to Bennyboy (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 02:20 AM

27. As I understand it, driver 'hits' someone/thing,

driver is at fault. Some states' statutes contain options to do % of fault, between/among the parties, and this sounds like such would be appropriate, so driver ?30% fault because he 'hit,' was unable to stop, and pedestrian ?70% fault? 'Under the influence' not relevant here, probably, imo.

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Response to Bennyboy (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 02:24 AM

28. Wouldn't he have been charged under the old law, too?

So it means that marijuana smoking is only okay as long as your blood levels, while driving, stay within the statutory limits.

Right?

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #28)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 02:33 AM

32. not necessarily

 

Washington Marijuana DUI Law To Take Effect on December 6, 2012
Submitted by tcmilios on Wed, 11/28/2012 - 12:04pm

On November 6, 2012, the voters of the State of Washington passed Initiative 502 on marijuana reform. From the broader public perspective, the passage of this measure legalizes the adult possession of small amounts of marijuana for personal use and creates both a system to tax the sale of marijuana and marijuana products and a revenue stream designated for substance abuse education and treatment. From a DUI perspective, I-502 creates a very specific legal standard for Marijuana DUI setting a per se limit of active THC of 5 nanograms per milliliter of blood.
Marijuana DUI prosecution in Washington State after I-502

Prior to the passage of I-502, there was no set legal limit for THC as it related to Washington DUI law. If the state believed an individual had been driving while impaired by the use of marijuana, it had to prove actual impairment irrespective of the actual level of THC in driver’s system. Under the new law, set to go into effect on December 6, 2012, the presence of 5 nanograms of THC in a state approved blood test within two hour of driving creates a per se DUI akin to a .08 level of alcohol....

more
http://www.washingtondui.com/blog/I502-washington-marijuana-dui-law-changes

DUID: The New Drug War
You Are Going Directly To Jail: What It Means, Who's Behind It, and Strategies to Prevent It
http://norml.org/library/item/you-are-going-directly-to-jail

Some of us tried to warn of this and we were accused of being growers, or cops, which is ironic because cops supported this "legalization" which is more appropriately called decrim
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decriminalization

So now enjoy your "legal" pot, and good luck with getting the Fed Banks to accept the marijuana stores (that don't exist yet) cash.

The media kept saying this is legalization and hordes of people bought it without even reading the text of 502.

Good luck!

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Response to green for victory (Reply #32)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 02:39 AM

35. But this driver was exhibiting signs of being under the influence.

So he would have been charged under the old law, too.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #35)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 10:59 AM

48. The article doesn't say exhibiting signs. It says the cop believed he was under the influence.

THis could have been due to the smell of weed or finding some in the car. Without more details, that can't be said.

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Response to green for victory (Reply #32)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 06:43 PM

158. Why?

 

So now enjoy your "legal" pot, and good luck with getting the Fed Banks to accept the marijuana stores (that don't exist yet) cash.


U.S. banks don't seem to have any problems accepting Mexican drug cartel's cash.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #28)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 02:48 AM

37. Good point. n/t

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #38)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 03:16 AM

39. Here's an article about it.

Publishing their work in December 2009, the researchers measured levels of active THC, the psychoactive compound in marijuana, in 25 heavy, long-term marijuana users over a seven-day period. The report finds that only one of the participants had active THC levels above 5 ng/mL on "admission (day 1)," which suggests that the woman was high when she arrived, and the rest had levels lower than 5 ng/mL. The woman had reported smoking four blunts per day. However, despite Martinelli's claims, the day after smoking, her THC levels had dropped to 2.9 ng/mL. Every other participant's THC levels had dropped even lower by day two. By day six, the levels were undetectable in most of the participants—and all of them were far below 5 nanograms. (And for the record, this research concerns active THC, not inactive THC metabolites.)

In short: According to the study they cite, none of the heavy pot users showed THC levels above the cut-off that I-502 would establish for drivers, except for one person on the same day she was admitted. Meanwhile, other studies show drivers with more than 5ng/mL of THC have a higher risk for crashes.

As the anti-legalization campaign repeatedly points out, the science on THC and driving is minimal. That's true, and per se cutoffs are imperfect. I agree with them on these counts. But the science that does exist shows significant potential for impairment among drivers over 5ng/mL. "At concentrations between 5 and 10 ng/mL approximately 75-90% of the observations were indicative of significant impairment in every performance test," reported Ramaekers et al in 2006.

Likewise, Grotenhermen et al found in 2005: "The crash risk apparently begins to exceed that of sober drivers as THC concentrations in whole blood reach 5–10 ng/mL." But THC levels drop rapidly after smoking marijuana. "THC concentrations in serum typically drop to 1–4 ng/mL within 3–4 hours after consumption," the researchers reported (the concentrations in serum are equivalent of about 0.6 to 2.5 ng/mL of THC in blood, the report says, which is obviously even lower).

So here's what we can glean: The claim that THC will persist in high levels a day after people are high, even in chronic users, appears unfounded. Further, active THC levels above 5 ng/mL are associated with higher risk of accidents, but the THC levels tend to drop below that level within a few hours after smoking pot.

http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2012/02/24/sorry-medical-marijuana-activists-your-study-doesnt-prove-that-i-502-will-nab-sober-drivers-for-duis/

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Response to Son of Gob (Reply #39)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 03:54 AM

40. Thank you! So it seems that 5 nano grams is a reasonable standard.

"In short: According to the study they cite, none of the heavy pot users showed THC levels above the cut-off that I-502 would establish for drivers, except for one person on the same day she was admitted. Meanwhile, other studies show drivers with more than 5ng/mL of THC have a higher risk for crashes."

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #40)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 10:57 AM

47. If his blood results come back under 5 ng, will they drop the DUI?

They should.

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Response to morningfog (Reply #47)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 05:53 PM

69. That was my understanding from reading the article. I guess we'll have to see. n/t

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Response to Bennyboy (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 10:55 AM

45. So what's the answer, then? Always assume that anyone with pot in their system is OK?

Or always assume it's from a long, long time ago because, you know, anyone who smokes pot doesn't lie, right?

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Response to randome (Reply #45)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:41 PM

62. When in doubt, throw the fucker in jail.

I'm pretty sure that's what our forefathers sake. Fuck the presumption of innocence.

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Response to EOTE (Reply #62)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:44 PM

64. So you don't have an answer.

He was said to appear to be under the influence. Absent evidence of a frame-up, that should be all we need to know. If his reaction time had been 'normal', maybe he would not have hit the guy.

When you drive a car, you should be on the alert for pedestrians. Apparently, the drive in this article was not.

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Response to randome (Reply #64)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:51 PM

65. I know what the answer ISN'T and that's a presumption of guilt. That's antithetical to decency.

Really? The word of an officer is enough for you? Yeah, your honor, randome appeared to be under the influence. Judge: GUILTY!

Fuck the field sobriety test, we've got an officer's word. And what more does a fascist society need than that?

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Response to EOTE (Reply #65)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 05:58 PM

70. No, the answer is the blood test that the people in the state voted for.

Which research shows is unlikely to "nab" unimpaired drivers.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #70)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:02 AM

85. "Unlikely", what a fucking great standard.

I hope you're fine knowing that your son or daughter is unlikely to be thrown in jail and have their lives ruined for something they did which is completely legal. Get a fucking grip.

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Response to EOTE (Reply #85)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:50 AM

92. And you are apparently fine with the unlikely possibility

that some guy will drive while stoned and kill you or someone you love.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #92)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:05 AM

98. Uhhh, no. What I want would have zero bearing on that.

I've just got this wild notion that someone should actually do something wrong or at least show signs of impairment before having their blood drawn. Wild, huh?

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #92)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 12:50 PM

129. Well, yes, because that happening is, well, UNLIKELY!

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #129)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 03:49 PM

135. If you'd read the rest of the thread, you'd understand the point I was making.

It is also UNLIKELY that unimpaired drivers will be stopped who have blood levels that high. For one thing, studies have shown that a driver with that blood level is very likely to be impaired. For another, if the driver IS driving well, he is unlikely to be stopped.

And yes, it is unlikely that someone I love will be injured or killed by a stoned driver. Of the two unlikely possibilities, though, this is the possibility that disturbs me a lot more.

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Response to EOTE (Reply #85)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:53 AM

94. Put some of that anger to better use.

If you're driving while impaired, it's against the law. Now whether or not this guy wants to contest it is his choice. It's not up to you or I to determine guilt or innocence.

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Response to randome (Reply #94)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:07 AM

99. No shit that's against the law, did I say it wasn't?

Evidence of impairment should come well before any blood is drawn, first and foremost. If there was no evidence the man was in any way responsible for the accident, why the fuck should he have his blood drawn? Considering how likely it is for unimpaired drivers to be flagged by this test, that should be very obvious.

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Response to EOTE (Reply #99)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:08 AM

100. Maybe he DID show evidence of being impaired.

None of us were there so why make the assumption that because pot was involved, he's somehow innocent?

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Response to randome (Reply #100)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:12 AM

103. So one step closer to cops being judge, jury and executioner. Fantastic.

Being forced to take the cops word for it is bullshit. So you believe that ANY cop has the right to pull over ANY motorist and force him/her to have blood drawn. Nice to meet you Mr. Dredd.

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Response to EOTE (Reply #103)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:15 AM

106. How do you think tickets are handed out these days?

Do you think a judge and jury follow every cop around 24/7? No one is forced to take anyone's word for anything. But the cop's word is a piece of evidence. A blood test would be another piece of evidence. How fast the driver was going before he ran over someone is another piece of evidence.

Just the involvement of pot makes some people foam at the mouth here on DU.

Do you put this much effort into disproving other DUIs in the world? My guess is No.

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Response to randome (Reply #106)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:23 AM

110. I would still have an issue with this if it were alcohol involved, but there would be many

differences. First of all, alcohol intoxication can be detected by a simple breathalyzer. Second of all, IF alcohol were involved, evidence of intoxication would most likely have presented itself at the scene of the accident. And with pretty much every case with DUI for alcohol, evidence of intoxication in terms of one's driving ability is the reason the person is stopped in the first place. Do you think that cops at roadside checkpoints should have the right to draw blood from any rando as well? I do think there has to be a very concrete reason for drawing blood for someone, this case doesn't even come close. Just going by some cop's hunch is utter bullshit.

On edit: Basically, it boils down to this as being a case of incarceration roulette. While this cop is waiting for the blood test to return, he doesn't know if there's even been a crime. He seems to admit that there's no evidence of any wrong doing at the scene, he's just hoping he can bust the guy on something irrelevant (which it is because he's not at fault in the accident). The fact that he wasn't at fault is all that should matter in this case.

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Response to EOTE (Reply #110)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:25 AM

113. Neither you nor I know what the cop's 'hunch' was.

Maybe the driver was going 12 miles an hour. Maybe he hit the guy on the wrong side of the road. Maybe he didn't notice he'd hit someone until after he'd driven another 40 yards.

Neither you nor I know why the cop suspected the driver was impaired and the article does not mention it.

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Response to randome (Reply #113)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:27 AM

116. Yes, I do. The cop's hunch was that the guy was intoxicatied by marijuana.

The details of the article make it very clear that the man wasn't at fault in the accident And the cops didn't arrive until AFTER the accident occurred. So yeah, their hunch was that a guy who was obviously in a horrendous state after being involved in a fatal accident appeared to be under the influence of marijuana.

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Response to randome (Reply #100)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 04:25 PM

144. I'm with you. He failed the sobriety tests and admitted to smoking pot within 90 minutes

of the accident.

If this guy failed the sobriety tests and admitted to recent drinking, would anyone object to his blood being checked?

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #70)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 12:49 PM

127. That is just plain false. Both NORML an ACLU disagree with you on that.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #127)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 03:51 PM

136. If so, then they disagree with the YES on 502 committee that supported legalization.

By the way, do you have links for that?

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #136)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 05:41 PM

151. They did (and do) support 502.

No link. I attended two symposiums this summer where this was discussed by a panel of NORML and ACLU people and lawyers. The symposium at Hempfest was really good. Two hours of Q&A. These questions all came up.

The take away from that was that in the short term, some people will be incarcerated and inconvenienced by the DUI limit in 502, but they were confident that once a few cases got in te system, it would be changed, as it is arbitrary and not based on scientific evidence or studies.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #151)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 08:48 PM

159. Well, this should be interesting then. But if Scott Rowell turns out to have high blood levels

I doubt that he'll turn out to be a good test case. They should wait for someone who didn't fail sobriety tests and admit to using shortly before accidentally killing someone.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #159)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 09:44 AM

167. Agreed.

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Response to randome (Reply #45)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 12:50 PM

130. Field Sobriety Test

duh

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Response to randome (Reply #45)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 02:17 PM

134. How about we prove actual impairment, like the old law?

Can you walk in a straight line?

Recite the alphabet backwards?

Close your eyes and touch your index finger to your nose?

Okay, not impaired, no matter what the level of THC.

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Response to Bennyboy (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:02 AM

49. Put yourself in the driver's position; could you pass a field sobriety test?

You're happily cruising down the road, following all the rules, and then, in an eyeblink...you killed a man.

I don't know about any of you, but I probably couldn't even stand after that let alone walk a straight line.

I think the sobriety test would not be valid given the circumstances, therefore, there would be no probable cause for a blood test.

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Response to Bennyboy (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:41 AM

52. Revenue, baby-Revenue

and no small means of continuing unreasonable laws. Catch-22. Sure you can use it in the privacy of your own home, but don't you dare drive (cars/bikes etc) after consumption.
We Know metabolites stay in your system Weeks after use. We also understand the Effects wear off after 2-3 Hours--but we're gonna get'cha anyway--one way or the other.

I would have voted Against Legalization based upon this One issue. Bad bill and it offers an illusion of "freedom" imo.

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Response to Bennyboy (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:44 AM

53. "believed"

If he was not high, would this be an issue?

he was not at fault.

I would be shaken up if this happened and out of it if this was me, no matter how sober or not I was.

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Response to Bennyboy (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:05 PM

54. Will they be conducting "tests" on the pedestrian ? ? ?

Perhaps this person was also "impaired" and it showed by his lack of observation to his environment and surroundings.

It didn't mention in the article whether or not the police will be conducting tests on the pedestrian. Seems reasonable and logical to me. Perhaps he had smoked, drank, or other medications impaired his judgmental skills.


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Response to Bennyboy (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:06 PM

55. Same thing would happen with prescription drugs

It's driving under the influence, not under the influence of a particular drug.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #55)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 08:53 PM

79. I knew a woman back in the 80s who was busted for DUI for cold medicine - prescription

She was impaired, though. She caused an accident. It was legally correct.

When medicines warn about not driving, people should pay attention.

As for pot, the levels in the WA law seem to be much higher than those that would catch habitual smokers unless they literally were driving stoned.

That 5 ng in whole blood is a very high level. Most people would have used very recently and used heavily. This law shouldn't cause many unfair prosecutions.

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Response to Bennyboy (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:28 PM

57. You're not supposed to drive impaired.

What is so fucking difficult to understand about that?

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Response to Zoeisright (Reply #57)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:43 PM

63. You're supposed to read an article before commenting on it.

What is so fucking difficult to understand about that?

Here's a hint. Having cannabinoid metabolites or even THC in your blood stream does not mean one is impaired.

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Response to EOTE (Reply #63)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:04 PM

73. Having a high level means one is likely to be impaired. Here:

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #73)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:01 AM

84. I keep hearing this word "likely".

You've said that many times. That people who are not impaired are not "likely" to be arrested for DUI. Apparently you're fine with that standard. Also, even the links you provide don't really suggest that at all, they're even more ethereal and less concrete. That slog link you provided is one of the most biased and unscientific articles I've ever read. They talk about their test group and say that only one person tested above 5ng/ml on the first day of the test, then they say that this suggests that the woman was high at the time. Their evidence for this? NOTHING. They just say it and expect one to believe it. Then they say that the day after, her blood levels dropped to 2.9ng/ml . That's a full day later and only about a 40% drop. A marijuana high lasts an hour or two at most. It's utterly asinine to charge people for DUI when there is zero evidence to suggest that they are impaired. Apparently you're just fine with it being relatively unlikely for people to be arrested falsely. I think it's absolutely unconscionable. Some people have no problem sleeping at night knowing that people are to be thrown in jail for doing something completely legal by state standards, I refuse to be like that.

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Response to EOTE (Reply #84)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:52 AM

93. So are you. You think it's likely that people who smoke pot won't ever drive while stoned,

and if they do, it's likely that their driving skills are unimpaired.

Sorry, but I disagree.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #93)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:03 AM

97. No, that's not what I think at all.

I think that before anyone should have a blood test to begin with, they should at the very least be at fault for something or demonstrate an impairment on the road. At that point, then they can administer an FST and then if it is failed a blood test. Pretty simple, no? That would certainly make it hell of a lot less likely that unimpaired drivers lives would be ruined, right?

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Response to EOTE (Reply #97)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 03:53 PM

137. Then you should have no problem with this case,

because he smelled like pot, admitted to using pot, and failed the sobriety test. That's why he got the blood test.

Since you weren't at the scene, how are you so sure he wasn't partially responsible? How do you know he didn't have a delayed reaction time when the victim stepped into traffic?

The victim was standing on the median before he suddenly stepped off. The driver in the left lane stopped in time to avoid hitting him. Scott Rowles, in the right lane, did not.

He failed the sobriety test and admitted to smoking pot within 90 minutes of the incident. Given these circumstances, the police were correct to do the blood test.

http://www.columbian.com/news/2012/dec/19/no-charges-now-east-mill-plain-pedestrian-traffic-/

Just before 5:50 p.m. Monday, Collins crossed the eastbound lanes of Mill Plain in front of Safeway carrying a grocery bag, according to witnesses. He stopped in a median, and then proceeded into westbound traffic. He was not in a crosswalk or an unmarked intersection.

A man driving a black Hyundai Sonata in the left lane slammed on the brakes to avoid hitting Collins. Rowles’ pickup, in the right lane, struck Collins.

Collins was dead when Vancouver police arrived.

Rowles told police that he had smoked “a bowl of marijuana” about one hour to one and a half hours before the collision, according to a probable cause affidavit.

Police said they could smell the pot on Rowles’ breath. He also failed a sobriety test, police said.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #137)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 04:11 PM

141. Only because they let him go.

I DO have a very big issue with him being apprehended and having his blood drawn. But these lines in your article do make me feel quite a bit better:

"Vu said a vehicular homicide conviction requires evidence that the actions of the driver were largely responsible for the victim’s death."

"Scott “Scotty” R. Rowles was released Wednesday because there is not enough evidence to charge him, said Senior Deputy Prosecutor Kasey Vu."

So thanks for providing that article, it shows me that there's at least SOME common sense going on here. I just hope the charging officer gets disciplined/fired. But given how many other things cops get away with, I don't see that happening.

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Response to EOTE (Reply #141)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 04:21 PM

143. He smelled like pot, admitted to using, and failed the sobriety tests.

Another driver, closer to the victim than he was, was able to stop in time. He wasn't.

So why do you have an issue with him having his blood drawn? You aren't supposed to be driving if you're under the influence, as he apparently was. The blood tests will provide more information.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #143)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 04:36 PM

146. The other driver very well could have prevented him from seeing the pedestrian.

Smelling like pot is irrelevant, the smell can stay on you quite a while and also we're just going by the word of the officer. The fact he admitted to smoking pot is also irrelevant as it's legal. Whether or not he was intoxicated at the time is the only thing that matters and if it is determined he didn't cause the accident, he should not have his blood drawn as there is no evidence to suggest he did have something to do with causing the accident.

The blood tests WILL provide more information, that's beside the point. The most important thing is that common sense prevailed and this man is going free.

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Response to EOTE (Reply #146)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 04:47 PM

147. Smoking pot and then driving under the influence isn't legal, whether he was at fault or not.

Just like drinking alcohol and driving under the influence isn't legal. So even if he isn't found at fault with regard to this accident, he could still be charged with a DUI, if the blood tests are over 5 nanograms.

He admitted to smoking recently AND he failed the sobriety tests. That is why he should have had his blood drawn.

Your insisting that there's no evidence to suggest he did something wrong is using circular logic.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #73)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:18 AM

90. How does that defeat the legal doctrine within the court system of "beyond a reasonable doubt"?

The law could be challenged in the court for that alone.

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Response to Selatius (Reply #90)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:56 AM

95. How do you know the behavior of the guy who hit the pededestrian?

It's like I said, absent evidence to the contrary, the arresting officer's word should be good enough for us -and by that I mean, 'us' on DU who only have an article to reference.

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Response to Zoeisright (Reply #57)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 07:12 PM

77. 'cause its herb man, it's from like nature and shit

so its like good and shit.

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Response to Sen. Walter Sobchak (Reply #77)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:14 AM

88. What a surprise to see you come down on the side of the authoritarians!

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Response to Romulox (Reply #88)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 04:34 PM

196. The corollary dogmatic defense of sacred cows are just as unsurprising.

The corollary dogmatic defense of sacred cows are just as unsurprising.

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Response to Zoeisright (Reply #57)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:13 AM

87. Where is the evidence this driver was impaired? I don't want any "common sense"

type equivocations, either.

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Response to Romulox (Reply #87)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:00 AM

96. I don't think the charging officer needs to present evidence to DUers.

That's up to a judge to decide. Or a jury if the guy wants to contest it. What puzzles me is why you automatically assume that because pot is involved, the guy is innocent. Do you personally know anything about this case?

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Response to randome (Reply #96)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 12:41 PM

121. A fact-free world view. Typical for you. nt

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Response to randome (Reply #96)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 12:42 PM

122. BTW, "Innocent until PROVEN guilty" is the basis of our entire justice system.

What puzzles me is why you automatically assume that because pot is involved, the guy is innocent.


This HAS to be a bad joke.

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Response to Romulox (Reply #122)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 04:02 PM

138. No one has proven anything. There is a charge.

There is the officer's word that the driver seemed impaired. The guy can contest it if he wants. What is so hard to understand about this? No one here is saying he's guilty. And you weren't there so why do you want so badly to believe he's innocent?

Do you go to this much trouble for every DUI that's issued in the country?

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Response to Bennyboy (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:41 PM

61. Don't have a problem with this. Don't smoke and drive. nt

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Response to Skip Intro (Reply #61)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 01:08 PM

67. It's entirely possible the driver wasn't smoking and driving.

If he smoked a joint the night before, he wasn't impaired at the time of the accident, but the THC is still detectable in his blood.

My question is, why are so many people on this thread apparently unaware of that fact?

My suspicion is that they are aware of it and are leaving it out of their arguments because they have a fucking agenda.

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Response to Occulus (Reply #67)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:01 PM

72. According to the research, it's unlikely it would be that high if he'd just smoked the night before.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #72)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:24 AM

112. Correct! Just because his blood had more than the arbirary limit does not mean impairment.

THAT is the issue, not driving while impaired.

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Response to Skip Intro (Reply #61)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:23 AM

111. Of course you don't have a problem with it. You have no idea what the issue at hand is.

And it is not about smoking then driving. It is about an arbitrary blood limit that has no scientific basis to judge impairment. No one is advocating for smoking pot then driving. Its getting arrested hours, or even days later, because one still has THC in their system, not because they were impaired.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #111)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:27 AM

115. So what do you think would be evidence of impairment for someone who smokes pot?

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Response to randome (Reply #115)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:46 AM

118. Field sobriety test, for starters.

And until real evidence of what constitutes impairment by looking at a blood test is resolved...that is what we have.

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Response to Bennyboy (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:54 PM

66. I am really missing the problem. They believe he was driving impaired.

If one is driving drunk, gets into an accident and is not at fault, they should still get a DUI.

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Response to Bennyboy (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:39 PM

76. true

 

true

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Response to Bennyboy (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:16 PM

81. The actual level in your blood is irrelevant to a DWI charge.

Here in California, our laws state that .08 is the legal limit for your BAC when drinking. Anything over that is automatically illegal.

It's far less well-known that you can be charged, tried, and convicted of DWI with a BAC of only .02 as well, even though that is only 25% of the legal limit. How? Simple...DWI merely requires that an officer proves intoxication via a field sobriety test. If you're a skinny little lightweight and can't walk a straight line at .02, you can still be charged. .08 means you're automatically guilty. .02 means that the officer just has to work a little harder to prove it.

Same should go for pot. If you can't drive safely and you can't pass a field sobriety test, the AMOUNT of THC in your blood is irrelevant. The fact that you couldn't pass the test is sufficient to bring charges. The AMOUNT of THC is merely evidence supporting the officers claim.

It sounds like this guy failed a field sobriety test. I don't know about Washington law, but here in California he could be charged with DWI for that alone (I suspect that Washington is the same). His THC levels are simply supporting evidence.

People are charged and convicted after being arrested for DWI while on legal prescription painkillers all the time. A woman in my hometown will be spending much of her remaining life in prison after killing a man while she was on a prescription psychiatric drug and painkiller that reduced her coordination and perception. She was "under the influence", and was charged and convicted on felony DUI and felony vehicular manslaughter because of it. Her drugs were legal in all 50 states. This is no different.

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Response to Xithras (Reply #81)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 10:21 AM

179. Most informative post in the thread...



In regards to alcohol...some officers may panic if someone blows less than a .08, but if a person is operating a motor vehicle in a public place and their conduct shows impairment from alcohol or any other substance (legal or illicit)...that meets the probable cause requirement for an arrest. (This applies to Texas)

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Response to Bennyboy (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:18 PM

82. Ok DUers, here's your $1 million dollar idea - design a sobriety test for pot usage/drivers

Sounds like there needs to be a kit developed to test field sobriety, THC levels in a blood test etc.

Time is ripe!

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Response to riderinthestorm (Reply #82)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:53 PM

83. Make them stand on one leg and dangle a bag of cheetos in front of their face.

 

if they start salivating and fall/stumble towards the bag of cheetos... they fail sobriety.

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Response to riderinthestorm (Reply #82)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:11 AM

86. Logic problem: why is a special test needed? If you can't tell someone is high,

under existing tests, then why shouldn't they be able to drive?

I can't wait for your answer!

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Response to Romulox (Reply #86)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 06:32 PM

156. The police can stop you for any reason really, at random.

Its not as though they need a reason.

I've been stopped at random checkpoints before and checked for alcohol, seat belt usage etc.





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Response to riderinthestorm (Reply #156)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 09:59 AM

174. Nonsense. Look up "probable cause" and get back to me, Perry Mason.

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Response to Romulox (Reply #174)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 10:51 AM

180. Actually the threshold is lower

You just need reasonable suspicion to detain someone.

I've never worked for an agency that uses them...but I believe that checkpoints are random, which allows them to circumvent the rs/pc threshold.

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Response to Romulox (Reply #174)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 11:03 AM

181. Yeah, well obviously you've never been stopped at a random checkpoint.

Good luck trying to circumvent that by telling the cops they don't have "probable cause".



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Response to riderinthestorm (Reply #181)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 02:47 PM

186. You said "any reason"--a random sobriety checkpoint is a VERY SPECIFIC case.

It does not amount to "any reason".

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Response to Romulox (Reply #186)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 04:15 PM

195. They can and do pull people over because they have 2 screws holding a license plate on, instead of 4

They are then free to pursue any other potentialities they "suspect" including DWB or DUI. Its basically "any reason" including "I observed you swerving" (you weren't). But whatever - this is akin to splitting hairs. If you believe the cops never fabricate reasons to pull people over I'm guessing you are not black.

You appear to have some weird thing going on with me over this. I'm not really interested in debating about the cops and their propensity to zealously pursue stupid shit. If you don't believe that the cops can and will exploit the new law on MJ, especially when it comes to driving, THC and whether a person is intoxicated or not, that's fine. I happen to believe the police work every angle to write their quota of tickets for the month. You don't. Okay.

And random checks are not simply for sobriety either. But you knew that I presume.


Regardless, this is way off topic to my original point.

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Response to Bennyboy (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:17 AM

89. No sympathy from me...

We can argue about whether the threshold level is appropriate, but if the law states what it is (whether from alcohol or drugs), and you've exceeded it, you're legally liable for impaired driving, whether you caused an accident or not. The folks arrested at a sobriety checkpoint haven't caused an accident either.

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #89)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 12:45 PM

124. Marijuana doesn't impair motor skills. *FACT* based community, remember?

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Response to Romulox (Reply #124)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 01:34 PM

132. If my attention to the road is distracted by my mind "being expanded"...that's not an improvement

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #132)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 05:42 PM

152. That's a big "if" though. SCIENCE, (not your "common sense") has to fill in those gaps.

So your guesswork about impairment isn't very useful.

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Response to Romulox (Reply #152)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 06:33 PM

157. so, do you have science to Prove

Marijuana does NOT impede driving skills?

You might want to disprove this:
http://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/drugfacts/drugged-driving

From the article:
Marijuana

THC affects areas of the brain that control the body’s movements, balance, coordination, memory, and judgment, as well as sensations. Because these effects are multifaceted, more research is required to understand marijuana’s impact on the ability of drivers to react to complex and unpredictable situations. However, we do know that—

A meta-analysis of approximately 60 experimental studies—including laboratory, driving simulator, and on-road experiments—found that behavioral and cognitive skills related to driving performance were impaired in a dose-dependent fashion with increasing THC blood levels.12
Evidence from both real and simulated driving studies indicates that marijuana can negatively affect a driver’s attentiveness, perception of time and speed, and ability to draw on information obtained from past experiences.
A study of over 3,000 fatally injured drivers in Australia showed that when marijuana was present in the blood of the driver, he or she was much more likely to be at fault for the accident. Additionally, the higher the THC concentration, the more likely the driver was to be culpable.13
Research shows that impairment increases significantly when marijuana use is combined with alcohol.14 Studies have found that many drivers who test positive for alcohol also test positive for THC, making it clear that drinking and drugged driving are often linked behaviors.


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Response to DonCoquixote (Reply #157)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 09:55 AM

172. That's not how it works. YOUR claim, YOUR burden. And links from drugabuse.org

are from a partisan source.

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Response to Romulox (Reply #172)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 03:20 PM

189. the studies done were done by government agencies

including Australia, which is NOT America..
You are the one trying to make us act as if drivign stoned is no biggie.

It is called driving while INTOXICATED, not drunk.

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Response to Romulox (Reply #172)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 03:21 PM

190. your quote was that science

had to fill in those gaps..

The science I quote ---->Did<---

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Response to Romulox (Reply #124)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:05 PM

163. The fact is that it does

Which multiple studies have proven. Here's just one:
http://www.parl.gc.ca/Content/SEN/Committee/371/ille/library/Wheelock-e.pdf

Find me a scientific/medical study that says that pot usage doesn't affect motor skills?

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Response to Yo_Mama (Reply #163)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 09:51 AM

170. "Study shows medical marijuana laws reduce traffic deaths"

Study shows medical marijuana laws reduce traffic deaths November 29, 2011 in Health A groundbreaking new study shows that laws legalizing medical marijuana have resulted in a nearly nine percent drop in traffic deaths and a five percent reduction in beer sales.

"Our research suggests that the legalization of medical marijuana reduces traffic fatalities through reducing alcohol consumption by young adults," said Daniel Rees, professor of economics at the University of Colorado Denver who co-authored the study with D. Mark Anderson, assistant professor of economics at Montana State University.

The researchers collected data from a variety of sources including the National Survey on Drug Use and Health, the Behavioral Risk Factor Surveillance System, and the Fatality Analysis Reporting System.

Read more at: http://medicalxpress.com/news/2011-11-medical-marijuana-laws-traffic-deaths.html#jCp

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Response to Yo_Mama (Reply #163)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 09:53 AM

171. "Marijuana Smoking Associated With Minimal Changes In Driving Performance, Study Finds"

Investigators from Hartford Hospital in Connecticut and the University of Iowa Carver College of Medicine assessed the simulated driving performance of 85 subjects in a double-blind, placebo controlled trial. Volunteers responded to various simulated events associated with automobile crash risk — such as avoiding a driver who was entering an intersection illegally, deciding to stop or go through a changing traffic light, responding to the presence of emergency vehicles, avoiding colliding with a dog who entered into traffic, and maintaining safe driving during a secondary (in-the-car) auditory distraction. Subjects performed the tests sober and then again 30 minutes after smoking a single marijuana cigarette containing either 2.9 percent THC or zero THC (placebo).

Investigators reported that volunteers performed virtually the same after smoking cannabis as they did sober and/or after consuming a placebo. "No differences were found during the baseline driving segment (and the) collision avoidance scenarios," authors reported.

http://www.enewspf.com/index.php/latest-news/automotive/16666-marijuana-smoking-associated-with-minimal-changes-in-driving-performance-study-finds-

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Response to Romulox (Reply #171)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 12:46 PM

182. But that is at low levels

A marijuana cigarette containing 2.9% THC would result in a blood level of THC at very low levels - less than 2ng 2 hours after imbibing for occasional users, but very much less than 5ng for even heavy users. Three times that dose will result in very high plasma concentrations while smoking - see the excerpt below. But the blood concentration is approximately half that of the plasma concentration, so the expected peak (pretty much right after smoking) levels for a 2.9% THC dose would be 8 - 34 ng in blood, falling to probably around 1 to 2 ng for chronic users after a couple of hours.

Just as one glass of wine doesn't send you careening into the driver ahead of you, everyone knows that motor task performance effects of marijuana are dose-related. That in no way implies that drinking 5 glasses of wine and driving is safe or driving while stoned is safe. Let me point out that the driver in this accident may well come in below the 5 ng limit.

You are going to exceed the 5 ng limit only if you are driving and smoking or driving a couple of hours after heavy usage.

http://www.nhtsa.gov/People/injury/research/job185drugs/cannabis.htm


Pharmacokinetics: Absorption is slower following the oral route of administration with lower, more delayed peak THC levels. Bioavailability is reduced following oral ingestion due to extensive first pass metabolism. Smoking marijuana results in rapid absorption with peak THC plasma concentrations occurring prior to the end of smoking. Concentrations vary depending on the potency of marijuana and the manner in which the drug is smoked, however, peak plasma concentrations of 100-200 ng/mL are routinely encountered. Plasma THC concentrations generally fall below 5 ng/mL less than 3 hours after smoking. THC is highly lipid soluble, and plasma and urinary elimination half-lives are best estimated at 3-4 days, where the rate-limiting step is the slow redistribution to plasma of THC sequestered in the tissues. Shorter half-lives are generally reported due to limited collection intervals and less sensitive analytical methods. Plasma THC concentrations in occasional users rapidly fall below limits of quantitation within 8 to 12 h.

Blood to Plasma Concentration Ratio: 0.55

Interpretation of Blood Concentrations: It is difficult to establish a relationship between a person's THC blood or plasma concentration and performance impairing effects. Concentrations of parent drug and metabolite are very dependent on pattern of use as well as dose. THC concentrations typically peak during the act of smoking, while peak 11-OH THC concentrations occur approximately 9-23 minutes after the start of smoking. Concentrations of both analytes decline rapidly and are often < 5 ng/mL at 3 hours. Significant THC concentrations (7 to 18 ng/mL) are noted following even a single puff or hit of a marijuana cigarette. Peak plasma THC concentrations ranged from 46-188 ng/mL in 6 subjects after they smoked 8.8 mg THC over 10 minutes. Chronic users can have mean plasma levels of THC-COOH of 45 ng/mL, 12 hours after use; corresponding THC levels are, however, less than 1 ng/mL. Following oral administration, THC concentrations peak at 1-3 hours and are lower than after smoking. Dronabinol and THC-COOH are present in equal concentrations in plasma and concentrations peak at approximately 2-4 hours after dosing.


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Response to Yo_Mama (Reply #182)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 02:46 PM

185. That's not evidence of impairment. You've moved the goalpoasts AND changed the game. nt

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Response to Bennyboy (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:08 AM

101. This case, and the few others that will follow, will be overturned.

The limit set in I-502 was arbitrary and not scientifically based (there are few, if any, scientific studies that measure the lasting effects of THC and impairment). It will be challenged (NORML and ACLU anticipated this happening and said they will be providing legal services) and overturned.

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Response to Bennyboy (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:12 AM

104. Such bullsh*t!

THC stays in your blood at least 30 days after smoking. So, even if you toked on 1/1/2013, didn't touch it again, and were pulled over on 1/30/2013, that means you'd still be considered stoned? Come on, people. Aren't we better than this? Jesus.... We're just going to fill up more jail cells and add to the courts' case loads. F'ing idiots are obviously creating these laws.

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Response to Bennyboy (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:16 AM

107. DUI doesn't require an accident at all

It is possible for a DUI driver not to be the one who was negligent in an accident. Actually that is what is hard for people to get their heads around. It is within the realm of possibility - sober drivers do negligent things while driving too. In an accident between a sober and a DUI driver it is possible that the sober driver's negligence caused the accident. In this case, that has been acknowledged.

But driving under the influence is a criminal offense even without the accident. So it's not inconsistent to be criminally liable to DUI while not civilly responsible for an accident.

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Response to treestar (Reply #107)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 12:47 PM

126. DUI is *supposedly* based on the *science* of observed driver impairment...

You're using it like a "gotcha!"; it's supposedly about safety, remember?

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Response to Romulox (Reply #126)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 01:18 PM

131. A friend of a friend was in an accident - solo, when drunk

And it was being said that it is harder for the cops to get him for DUI there, since he was injured and taken to the hospital. They could not do field sobriety tests and that would give them no ground for the inhalator - they came upon the accident after it happened, and he was already gone, so maybe they can't get evidence. We were thinking the medical records might show it in a blood test, but then the hospital has no reason to order that particular blood test.

But if you are not hurt badly enough and are around for the cops to see evidence of being stoned, they would have something to go on, so the same safety factor would apply as if they'd just seen them driving erratically. I remember a case when I was an intern where the cops stopped at 7-11 and saw a lady drunk off her ass in the parking lot. In police report-ese he related that she tried to embrace him. (The Subject attempted to embrace Officer Jones :rofl He never saw her driving but she and her car were there and that was enough to charge her with drunk driving. So it's a matter of having the evidence mostly.

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Response to treestar (Reply #131)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 04:16 PM

142. The OP leaves out several pertinent points that, if factual,

increase the likelihood that the driver was at fault.

According to police reports, he admitted to using within 90 minutes of the accident.

He failed sobriety tests.

The victim stepped off the median. The driver in the closer lane was able to stop in time to avoid him. Scott Rowles, in the next lane, wasn't.

So, whether Scott Rowles will be found guilty or not, it seems reasonable to me that they took his blood levels and are conducting the investigation. The new law doesn't give marijuana users a free pass to smoke and drive.

http://www.columbian.com/news/2012/dec/19/no-charges-now-east-mill-plain-pedestrian-traffic-/

Just before 5:50 p.m. Monday, Collins crossed the eastbound lanes of Mill Plain in front of Safeway carrying a grocery bag, according to witnesses. He stopped in a median, and then proceeded into westbound traffic. He was not in a crosswalk or an unmarked intersection.

A man driving a black Hyundai Sonata in the left lane slammed on the brakes to avoid hitting Collins. Rowles’ pickup, in the right lane, struck Collins.

Collins was dead when Vancouver police arrived.

Rowles told police that he had smoked “a bowl of marijuana” about one hour to one and a half hours before the collision, according to a probable cause affidavit.

Police said they could smell the pot on Rowles’ breath. He also failed a sobriety test, police said.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #142)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 04:48 PM

148. Imagine that...

DU's knee-jerk defense of a perp was off base.

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Response to Sen. Walter Sobchak (Reply #148)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 05:41 PM

150. "Perps"? Are you role playing your avatar?

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Response to Romulox (Reply #150)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 12:16 AM

165. No, just recognizing a well worn pattern

some dickhead of a persuasion some DU'ers find sympathetic gets arrested, this is immediately followed by a flurry of "fuck the police" posts, yet more often than not additional details only further implicate the dickhead.

In this case a drug abuser killed a pedestrian.

Yet... when the roles were reversed and it was Occudorks plunging into the path of oncoming traffic and being hit it was always the motorists fault for failing to stop and fuck the police for not arresting the motorist.

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Response to Sen. Walter Sobchak (Reply #165)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 09:49 AM

169. Nonsense. This guy was a LEGAL USER who was NOT AT FAULT.

That you have to twist the facts to suit some twisted authoritarian narrative says everything that need be said.

Most DUers would call themselves "Walter Sobchak" ironically. Not you, though.

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Response to Romulox (Reply #169)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 03:21 PM

191. The facts of this case remain under investigation, so you can't say with certainty

he isn't at fault -- with regard to the death of the victim.

It does appear, however, that at the least he may be guilty of a DUI, since he admitted to smoking within 90 minutes of driving, and he failed the sobriety tests. We'll know more when the blood tests come back.

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Response to Romulox (Reply #169)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 06:05 PM

198. and after failing a sobriety test advised the police he had just "smoked a bowl"

Are DUI's for alcohol also inherently authoritarian? Or is this merely a privilege to be extended to the noble marijuana abuser?

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Response to Sen. Walter Sobchak (Reply #148)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:03 PM

162. Well, it definitely should be investigated

Is there anyone who thinks this doesn't warrant further investigation?

If the guy's blood levels come back pretty low, then that will help him legally rather than hurt him.

But failing a sobriety test at the scene is not a good sign, and sad to say, all the science indicates that this is exactly the type of situation in which a person high on pot would be expected to fail as a driver. They can't respond as quickly as when sober.

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Response to Yo_Mama (Reply #162)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 12:24 AM

166. what needs further investigation? would an alcohol incident be further investigated?

This gentleman:

1. Hit a pedestrian when a motorist closer to the pedestrian successfully stopped.
2. Failed a roadside sobriety test.
3. Volunteered to the police that he had just "smoked a bowl"
4. Was found to have significant THC in his blood.

If you want to martyr a marijuana user go cruise an aids clinic or something, this guy isn't the horse you're looking for.

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Response to Sen. Walter Sobchak (Reply #166)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 09:58 AM

173. I call nonsense on the "failed roadside sobriety test". No details in the articles to

support it, whatever.

This is basic probable-cause-made-up-after-the-fact. Standard cop procedure.

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Response to Romulox (Reply #173)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 03:30 PM

193. here ya go

http://www.yakimaherald.com/news/latestnews/653920-8/marijuana-suspected-in-vehicular-homicide-case

"Police said they could smell the pot on Rowles’ breath. He also failed a sobriety test, police said."

But somehow, i doubt you will care about that.

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Response to DonCoquixote (Reply #193)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 04:44 PM

197. sometimes, a sweet baggie of grass is a seriously delicious sacred cow.

Quite often, we hold our own sacred cows to much lower standards than we hold those who may argue against them. And quite often, a sweet baggie of grass is a seriously delicious sacred cow.

And though I myself may or may not enjoy the occasional indulgence now and then, it certainly doesn't prevent me from seeing the possibilities of safety issues, and a knee-jerk defense of a failed sobriety test.

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Response to DonCoquixote (Reply #193)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 06:26 PM

201. Details, details. Everyone knows after the Missionaries of Charity...

there is no more noble bunch to be found than marijuana using motorists.

Wow, Rowles sounds like a real loser.

Judge Robert Lewis set Rowles’ bail at $50,000, based in part on Rowles’ previous criminal history in Oregon of felony public indecency in 2005 and third-degree theft in 1985... Rowles works at a temp agency and had been staying with a friend for the past two months in Milwaukie.

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Response to Sen. Walter Sobchak (Reply #166)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 10:15 AM

178. The other guy slammed his brakes on though

And had a better chance to see him. The other motorist would have blocked the pot smoker's view.

And the pedestrian failed to look before crossing. Any reasonable pedestrian would see two vehicles coming before stepping off the curb. And he was not in a crosswalk.

The pedestrian can be at fault and often is. As a pedestrian you also have a duty to pay attention and look. Maybe you can't hurt others but you can hurt yourself and cause damage.

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Response to treestar (Reply #178)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 06:15 PM

199. If you tell the police you just "smoked a bowl" after failing a sobriety test...

It doesn't really matter if you were pulled over for playing Frogger or a rolling stop.

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Response to Sen. Walter Sobchak (Reply #166)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 12:49 PM

183. The blood test

An alcohol user would be given the blood test and due process, and so should this user.

I'm not an advocate of driving while drunk or stoned.

The blood test isn't back yet, is it?

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Response to Sen. Walter Sobchak (Reply #166)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 12:52 PM

184. He is being charged with vehicular homicide (but wait)

http://www.columbian.com/news/2012/dec/18/suspect-east-mill-plain-pedestrian-death-appears-c/

I guess he tested at 5 ng or above or very close.

The DA dropped the charges, saying further investigation was needed:
http://salmoncreeklawoffices.com/siteboosters/vancouver-pedestrian-struck-killed/

So I guess the blood test came back below 5 ng.

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Response to Yo_Mama (Reply #184)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 06:20 PM

200. They didn't drop the DUI charge

Only the homicide charge,

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #142)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 10:11 AM

176. IMO MJ driver is not at fault

Pedestrian is at fault. Yes it's tragic, but that doesn't mean one's own negligence can't cause one's death. This pedestrian didn't look to his left before crossing on foot. The other car had to slam on brakes and had the chance to see him before Rowles, the MJ driver, did.

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Response to treestar (Reply #176)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 03:26 PM

192. Pedestrians have the right of way

and people wonder why nobody walks in this country.

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Response to DonCoquixote (Reply #192)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 07:42 PM

203. Depends on state law, but

it is not sensible to just assume. I have the right of way in a crosswalk, but I still look. I value my life, though.

And this guy was not in a crosswalk.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #142)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 02:59 PM

187. Not defending him, but if he was to the right of the other car, he probably

couldn't see the pedestrian, especially if the sun had gone down and the pedestrian was wearing dark colors. This is an all around tragic situation. It's best to avoid drugs, drinking, and any type of texting while driving because if a fatality occurs, you're going to jail regardless of whose fault it is.

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Response to ecstatic (Reply #187)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 03:18 PM

188. That could be an explanation. But there is still the problem

of his admittedly smoking a "bowl" within 90 minutes of driving, and his failing the sobriety tests.

So if he wasn't guilty of manslaughter for killing the victim, he could still be guilty of a DUI.

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Response to treestar (Reply #131)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 05:40 PM

149. And your anecdotes about your alcoholic friends reveal exactly *what* about marijuana?

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Response to Romulox (Reply #126)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 04:05 PM

194. 2 weeks ago: Legal pot newest target for Wash. DUII sting

 

Legal pot newest target for Wash. DUII sting

VANCOUVER – Police in Vancouver are ramping up efforts to keep streets in Washington safe, and with the recent legalization of Marijuana, they have a lot more to look out for.

Nearly three dozen officers were on patrol Friday night processing DUII drivers in a mobile command unit. While police can rely on traditional methods to detect alcohol, detecting impairment from marijuana is not as easy.

“We don’t have any x-ray glasses to look to see anything special. It’s that level of impairment that other people can see that we see as well,” said Sgt. Mark Crandall with Washington State Police. “Maybe they have relaxed inhibitions. Maybe they’re stumbling.”

As the holidays approach, a lot more parties are happening and chances are more people will be drinking and driving.

Authorities in Washington urge those who are drinking or using marijuana to never get behind the wheel. Instead, designate a driver or call a taxi.

http://www.kgw.com/news/Pot-adds-new--182668541.html

edit:there's the magic new buzzword DUID

DUID Legislation
You Are Going Directly To Jail: What It Means, Who's Behind It, and Strategies to Prevent It

DUID, short for "driving under the influence of drugs," is the latest buzzword among politicians and police -- however, in this case, words can be deceiving.

Though billed by its proponents as a necessary tool to crack down on persons who operate a motor vehicle while impaired by illicit drugs, in reality, many newly proposed DUID laws -- in particular "zero tolerance" per se laws -- have little to do with promoting public safety or identifying motorists who drive while intoxicated. Rather, these laws potentially classify many sober drivers as impaired under the law solely because they were presumed to have consumed a controlled substance -- particularly marijuana -- at some previous, unspecified point in time.

DUID Defined

There are various types of DUID laws, some more pernicious than others. Today, every state has DUID legislation on the books. These laws fall into three distinct categories:

Per Se DUID Laws

http://norml.org/library/item/you-are-going-directly-to-jail

after the feds sue to prevent state run stores (Really!) the only things left of this poor attempt at decriminalization (the media lied when they said it was legalization) will be the 1oz tolerance (saves LEO money), no home growing and of course, DUID laws. Next, for public safety, LEO will begin a crackdown on home growers, since they pose a threat to public safety.

No wonder LEO was so supportive. And to all you belligerent rude 502 supporters, maybe you could volunteer some time to drive a medical marijuana patient (who is now most likely PER SE guilty of a DUI the second they sit behind a wheel) to a dispensary. OOops- they're illegal. Maybe you're all tied up and stuff, trying to fix the new law like you said you would. Then hire a taxi.

Good luck!

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Response to Bennyboy (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:06 PM

164. State kidnapping. Injustice. The jury should acquit regardless of the evidence.

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