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Tue Dec 18, 2012, 01:49 PM

I am not a gun person. But for the gun persons, how about you speak out?

I recall, way back when, kids my age going hunting. I grew up not far from Newtown, actually, and kids used to go with their Dads up into Monroe and Shelton, and, yes, Newtown, to hunt.

My Dad always told me he had enough of guns in Italy and France in the early and mid 1940s, during that big shooting incident they had over there. He never spoke about it specifically. It was understood he would not be a Dad who took his kids hunting.

When I turned 16, I joined the NRA, took my gun safety course, and bought a single shot 16 ga Savage shotgun. One of my sons still has it. No tradition involved. He just wanted it. It's a pretty benign gun as gun erotica goes.

When I was in the Navy, I had to learn to shoot a .45 automatic. I qualified pretty highly on it earned some award or other. It was more than 40 years ago, so I don't recall what it was, exactly. I also shot a lot of other shipboard-typical weaponry, both small arms and heavy stuff, up to a 40mm AA gun. Big booms! Yeah, it was visceral and in some ways kind of exciting. Cool. Big mechanical things making big noises. There's something in all that that seems to appeal to the testosterone rich among us.

To this day, I love the sound of unmuffled airplanes flying low and fast at air shows, of jets going vertical with afterburners flaming. Of cars going very fast. I love the concussion of the sound as it hits you, washes over and envelops you. I love that shit. I can see how guns hit that same spot.

Anyway, I'm not a gun guy. I hunted a few times, usually with borrowed weapons. Meh. I was more disgusted than not, killing something.

But I guess I can understand the allure of hunting. My younger son hunts. not so much anymore, but he still has a few long guns. no pistols, though. While it holds no appeal for me, I actually do think I understand hunting, and to some extent, owning a gun.

I also understand the familial pride of a Dad taking his kid hunting. Teaching him the skills needed, both gun skills and otherwise. I do. I get it. I also recall not feeling too good about my dad not taking me. I understand now, to be sure. But back then, he was Superman. Why wouldn't he take me?

So yeah, I think I understand hunting and hunters and some of the allure. And basically, I am fine with it. I prefer it not happen, but that's just me. I can be tolerant, though. I can also understand the need for guns, beyond and pride or pleasure. A rancher warding off a marauding predator. Law enforcement. I get all that.

But then you get into the perversion of guns. The fetishistic aspects.

Since I'm not a gun person, whatever I say becomes suspect. I have an agenda. I'd be just as happy - no, probably happier - if all guns simply disappeared.

But hunters, genuine sportsmen, honest gun users, responsible gun owners, why not speak out about gun fetishists. You know who I mean, so don't say you don't; you'd be lying. The survivalists. the castle people. those who fear crime from those of other skin colors. Why not treat the fetishists among you as society did to drunk drivers, smokers, wife beaters, etc. Societal pressures were applied to those activities. You know how the smokers now claim to be respectful and go outside to smoke. Many report being ashamed they still smoke. Millions, like me, have quit. It simply isn't cool anymore.

Why can't honest gun owners, the kind I describe above, why can't they put social pressure on the (okay, I'll go there) "gun nuts" to stop being so . . . . . I dunno, nutty?

It seems to me you'd do yourselves a service. Guns would be seen as they once were. Reasonable ownership restrictions could put in place without harm to the responsible owners. Police yourself.





93 replies, 5183 views

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Reply I am not a gun person. But for the gun persons, how about you speak out? (Original post)
Stinky The Clown Dec 2012 OP
HERVEPA Dec 2012 #1
Brickbat Dec 2012 #2
Stinky The Clown Dec 2012 #3
Brickbat Dec 2012 #4
WilliamPitt Dec 2012 #5
OneGrassRoot Dec 2012 #9
Brickbat Dec 2012 #10
bvar22 Dec 2012 #74
Fumesucker Dec 2012 #7
ellisonz Dec 2012 #20
IDoMath Dec 2012 #27
ThatPoetGuy Dec 2012 #33
Zoeisright Dec 2012 #54
DrDan Dec 2012 #29
spin Dec 2012 #46
friendly_iconoclast Dec 2012 #60
spin Dec 2012 #71
Raine Dec 2012 #75
bossy22 Dec 2012 #6
Stinky The Clown Dec 2012 #13
bossy22 Dec 2012 #23
spin Dec 2012 #73
HERVEPA Dec 2012 #14
sarisataka Dec 2012 #8
ellisonz Dec 2012 #22
AlexSatan Dec 2012 #61
sarisataka Dec 2012 #63
ellisonz Dec 2012 #64
AlexSatan Dec 2012 #67
ellisonz Dec 2012 #72
AlexSatan Dec 2012 #78
sarisataka Dec 2012 #62
ellisonz Dec 2012 #65
sarisataka Dec 2012 #69
ThatPoetGuy Dec 2012 #35
sarisataka Dec 2012 #68
ThatPoetGuy Dec 2012 #70
doc03 Dec 2012 #11
gkhouston Dec 2012 #12
Stinky The Clown Dec 2012 #15
GreenPartyVoter Dec 2012 #16
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #32
former9thward Dec 2012 #17
Bucky Dec 2012 #87
former9thward Dec 2012 #88
Bucky Dec 2012 #89
former9thward Dec 2012 #90
Aerows Dec 2012 #91
former9thward Dec 2012 #92
ellisonz Dec 2012 #18
PD Turk Dec 2012 #19
HERVEPA Dec 2012 #21
bossy22 Dec 2012 #24
HERVEPA Dec 2012 #28
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #37
Stinky The Clown Dec 2012 #26
PD Turk Dec 2012 #43
Stinky The Clown Dec 2012 #57
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #38
JohnnyRingo Dec 2012 #25
Stinky The Clown Dec 2012 #30
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #34
JohnnyRingo Dec 2012 #51
Stinky The Clown Dec 2012 #58
friendly_iconoclast Dec 2012 #59
JohnnyRingo Dec 2012 #66
JohnnyRingo Dec 2012 #47
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #80
HERVEPA Dec 2012 #31
JohnnyRingo Dec 2012 #50
marions ghost Dec 2012 #53
JohnnyRingo Dec 2012 #55
marions ghost Dec 2012 #79
JohnnyRingo Dec 2012 #82
marions ghost Dec 2012 #83
JohnnyRingo Dec 2012 #84
marions ghost Dec 2012 #85
slutticus Dec 2012 #86
NickB79 Dec 2012 #36
hootinholler Dec 2012 #39
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #42
ManiacJoe Dec 2012 #40
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #41
Stinky The Clown Dec 2012 #45
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #77
Kaleva Dec 2012 #52
ancianita Dec 2012 #44
Bake Dec 2012 #56
ancianita Dec 2012 #81
aikoaiko Dec 2012 #48
marions ghost Dec 2012 #49
ileus Dec 2012 #76
bettyellen Dec 2012 #93

Response to Stinky The Clown (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 01:55 PM

1. Don't consider hunters as sportsmen.

The other side (the animals) are not willing participants in the sport. They are just people going out and (sometimes) tracking animals and killing them and getting some perverse pleasure from it.

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Response to HERVEPA (Reply #1)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 01:56 PM

2. Here's your answer right here, Stinky, as to why hunters get tired of speaking up.

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Response to Brickbat (Reply #2)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:00 PM

3. Yeah, I see that and hear that.

I'm not a "Bambi" type, even as I don't hunt. I think that view is also a minority view. I also know that if the white tailed rats . . . er deer . . . who overran our old place and are even thicker here where we are now were to somehow not come back, I'd be thrilled. They're destructive and a nuisance.

But more to the point, the hunters need not speak up to that viewpoint. They need to speak up to their fellow gun owners. The nutters in their midst.

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Response to Stinky The Clown (Reply #3)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:02 PM

4. Understood.

Just found it frustrating that the first response to the thread went there. Not your fault.

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Response to Brickbat (Reply #4)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:04 PM

5. This is DU.

What annoys one the most will invariably come first. It's axiomatic at this point.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Reply #5)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:10 PM

9. "What annoys one the most will invariably come first."

Yep. Well said.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Reply #5)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:10 PM

10. The damn truth, right there.

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Response to Stinky The Clown (Reply #3)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 06:12 PM

74. I don't consider myself or my wife as "gun people".

We live in a very rural area (Ouachita Mountains, Arkansas) surrounded by National Forest.
We are committed to living as sustainably, independently, and Green as possible.
We grow most of our own food,
keep chickens and Honey Bees,
Veggies, Fruit Trees and various cultivated Berries.
Next year, we are going to add either a few yearling calfs, or pigs, or sheep (haven't decided which yet).

We are Liberal FDR Working Class Democrats who own several long guns, and a hand gun.
We maintain them, and shoot them at least twice a year on our rural property.
We keep them all loaded, readily accessible,
but out-of sight and covered on a wall rack in the back hallway.
(We have no children or adolescents in our home.)

I have used them to protect ourselves, our property, our stock and our pets,
and will do so again if the need arises,
though I prefer to Live Trap & Relocate.

At the current time, we are not hungry enough to hunt,
but would do so if the need arises,
and will have the necessary skills to do so effectively and efficiently.
We recently raised a rescue fawn,
and LOVE her dearly,

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1182456
but we also have venison in the freezer (gift from a neighbor)
and would hunt deer if necessary, though I prefer Game Birds.
Such is LIFE.


We have chosen to live in a very rural area, and most of our neighbors are Fox News Republicans, though we maintain good neighborly relationships based on our love of the land here.
They HAVE been brainwashed into believing that Alan Colmes is representative of all "Democrats",
and continually express their amazement that this old Oil Field Roughneck,
*who can crawl under a truck and change a transmission,

*who is firmly Pro-UNION and unafraid to say so,

*who spends most of the day with dirty hands,

*who builds everything himself using mostly hand tools,

*who wears the old scars of youthful Bar Room Brawls on his face

*who calls straight Up Bullshit when he hears it,

*who owns and shoots guns,

*who runs into burning houses with the other FireFighters on our department,

is an unashamed Liberal Democrat.


As an unashamed Liberal Democrat living among Fox News Republicans,
I am glad my neighbors KNOW that we are armed and competent.

I have continually reassured my neighbors out here that
"The Democrats aren't going to take your guns. The only want to take them from criminals and nuts in the cities."
They seem to understand that.
The recent hysterical threads on DU calling for a total Banning of all guns is not helpful.

My Wife & I have given MORE lifetime Republicans permission to vote FOR the Democrat (even the *gasp* Black One) than we ever did in Big Blue Minneapolis.

I am not a Gun Nut, though some here would label me as one.
In 11 years at DU, I have never visited the Gun Forum and have no desire to do so.
I have never been a member of the NRA,
and have nothing but contempt for the drivers of vehicles with the little NRA stickers on the back.

I am one of the many, many responsible Liberal Democrats who own guns,
and will continue to do so.


As far as speaking up to the "nutters",
well, we have some of those out here.
There are more than a couple who are certain that we are in the End Times,
and can't wait for the day that they can shoot hungry people ("Survivalists").
They Live and Dream that shit.
We avoid them where ever possible.
They ARE crazy and dangerous.
We will be leaving them completely alone,
and pray they will return the favor.


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Response to Brickbat (Reply #2)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:07 PM

7. A family member shot a 12 point buck on the property here a couple of weeks ago

Watching a thirty five year old man act like he was going to wet himself with excitement because he just killed something wasn't a pleasant experience. He drove the poor dead animal around to all his friends to show them.

It wasn't about the meat, that was the third of five deer he's shot here this year but it was his first ever buck.

FWIW, I don't own the property so I have no say, I just live here.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #7)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:24 PM

20. Some people take hunting way too far...

No respect for the animals. No respect for sportsmanship. No respect for the law. It's all about them. And that's why we should fund our game warden departments extremely well so that when they go over that line where the law says they can't kill that animal that way, they get busted, and then they will know, it's not all about them and theirs.

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Response to Brickbat (Reply #2)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:49 PM

27. yep. That sums it up.

 

For the record, I don't regard hunters as sportsmen either. Hunters eat/use what they kill. They participate in the cycle of life. Sport killers. Call them sportsmen if you like. I just call them murderers.

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Response to Brickbat (Reply #2)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 03:01 PM

33. I went hunting once, with a friend.

Before we went hunting, we stopped in at a hunting store. It was HUGE, and lots of the toys and clothes were really cool, outdoorsman-style stuff.

But the customers -- good lord. I'd never SEEN so many obese people in one place. It was like a convention of people who eat only at McDonald's.

Yeah, I go to fast-food places occasionally. And the body fat percentage at the hunting shop had to be twice as high as the body fat of customers at Burger King.

I didn't kill anything, but my friend killed a small deer. We had venison for days.

And I returned to the hunting shop and bought a fishing vest, since it had all these cool pockets and pouches I could use to hold batteries and SD cards and other gear for my outdoor photography.

And again, the most out-of-shape people I've ever seen.

If you consider video gaming a sport, then I'd accept, by your definition, hunting would be a sport too. Video gaming and hunting both require less athleticism than shooting pool.

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Response to Brickbat (Reply #2)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 04:41 PM

54. Well, arm the animals and you can consider it a "sport".

As it stands now, it's a bunch of sickos getting off by killing animals. When kids do that, it's considered a sign of mental illness.

Gee, I wonder why?

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Response to HERVEPA (Reply #1)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:53 PM

29. agree completely - it's only the hunters who consider this a "sport" and themselves as "sportmen"

something wrong when killing is considered a sport.

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Response to HERVEPA (Reply #1)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 03:48 PM

46. In the poor rural area of Florida where I live ...

hunters shoot feral hog and deer to provide food for their family.

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Response to spin (Reply #46)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 05:08 PM

60. Don't they know that it's only ethical to have someone *else* kill their food for them...

...after it lived out its life in a factory farm?

I'll start taking the tender feelings of anti-hunting types a lot more seriously
when the majority of them become vegans...

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Response to friendly_iconoclast (Reply #60)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 06:01 PM

71. That's a good idea. If you don't like hunting you should be a vegan!!! ...

than you have a right to express your dislike of hunting. If you eat meat and dislike hunting and hunters than you are a hypocrite.

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Response to HERVEPA (Reply #1)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 06:14 PM

75. Totally agree. nt

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Response to Stinky The Clown (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:06 PM

6. Because it's impossible for anyone to shake the label that is unfairly thrown upon us

Most people who are very pro-gun have preconcieved ideas and notions. Whatever I say will not change their minds. Anytime I mention a "key" word I will be automatically labled a nut. For example, if propose a "bill" that would allow for a nationwide shall issue concealed carry law, automatically I will be called a nut, and I will be tuned out. Nevermind that if I was allowed to finish- my bill would create a system where to get such a permit you would have to go through classroom and range training (like police recruits) and have to requalify with your weapon at the range everytime you wanted to renew your permit.

Yes, we have our fair share of nuts, those who are survivalists and government insurrectionists. I don't agree with them. But if you would give us a chance to explain ourselves- without calling us gun nuts, gun fetishists, gun worshippers, you might find out that we are not as nutty as you think.

You have deamonized and entire group of people unfairly (not saying some individuals and subsects don't deserve it but we all know how well stereotypes work) and this is what has become of it. You through people like us out with these nuts.

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Response to bossy22 (Reply #6)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:16 PM

13. Part of that probelm is your of your own making.

The face of the "gun culture" (more on the quotes in a bit) is the NRA and The Gun Owners Association and Charleton Heston and Ted Nugent.

The non gun people didn't allow those people and organizations to be out there. They're there with not a small amount of popular support.

I put the words "gun culture" in quotes. The responsible gun owners are not to be included in that. The people who *are* included are the fetishists I mention in the OP. It includes Wayne LaPeirre. It includes Ted Nugent. It includes families who use superguns as props in their Christmas card pictures.

It probably doesn't mean you.

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Response to Stinky The Clown (Reply #13)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:29 PM

23. I don't disagree- we deserve our fair share of the blame

but the debate has become so divisive. You are either with the "brady campaigns" or the "NRAs". Like my Concealed Carry example, the second I'd mention that in a debate- i'm automatically thrown into the NRA corner- even though the NRA advocates unrestricted non-permit necessary carrying of handguns and I'm advocating a licensing and training system which just gets rid of the "need" requirement.

Also the problem is that our crazy minority "lives" for this stuff. Yes, I'll say it, they are obsessed with weapons. I'll be honest, I like guns, I like shooting my AR-15, I keep a handgun for self defense and home protection (though i'll admit I do not need it at this time. It's just a personal belief that i'd rather not need it and have it than need it and not have it). The thing is, I don't think about guns 24/7, I don't drool over them, I don't spend hours of my days looking at them. It's a hobby (actually, people who know me would consider me more of a "tea" nut; I must have 60 different types in my apartment). But to get back to the point, these individuals put more time to this than I do and therefore their voices are heard louder than mine.

I'll admit it as well, I do agree with some of the NRA's positions. I think they do stop some misguided legislation (though for the wrong reasons). I also think they need to drop the insurrectionist movement.

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Response to bossy22 (Reply #23)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 06:05 PM

73. The tea I like the most is lapsang souchong. Love the smokey taste. (n/t)

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Response to bossy22 (Reply #6)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:19 PM

14. Thinning the herd

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Response to Stinky The Clown (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:08 PM

8. Unfortunately

if you own a gun you are considered a gun nut.

For the most part, any attempt a dialogue is met with a chorus of 'nra talking points!!!' The discussion we heard about is wanted to be a one way discussion.

There are exceptions and some good ideas have been exchanged about what could be effective gun control and within the meaning and current ruling of the 2A.

My fear is that the issue is so divisive here, where the majority hold similar values, how is it ever going to make headway in Congress that is more polarized than has been seen since the 1860s...

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Response to sarisataka (Reply #8)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:26 PM

22. You'd be more convincing if you didn't lead with a straw man.

That you chose to lead with that sort of argument suggests you're not learning one damned thing from the productive discussions you are having.

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #22)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 05:09 PM

61. Would you like me

 

to provide links to how many times I have been called a gun nut in the past 2 days?

And I own 1 shotgun. That I have fired three times in 10 years.

And that's it.

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Response to AlexSatan (Reply #61)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 05:18 PM

63. Case in point

Stay safe AlexSatan

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Response to AlexSatan (Reply #61)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 05:18 PM

64. If you're defending the NRA-line on this topic...

...you've brought it on yourself.

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #64)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 05:27 PM

67. Hey, there's the other one

 

I was going to also mention that I've been accused of supporting NRA talking points.

But that is not correct.

Considering I've never read any of their literature or gone to their site (despite eating in their cafeteria on Waples Mill Rd), I don't know what their talking points are.

Apparently they agree with at least some of my positions on the topic. So I guess the NRA is apparently using my talking point on at least on aspect of the issue.

Since I don't know the NRA's positions (I imagine they are more extreme than mine) it is hard to know on what positions we apparently agree.

But it still is funny how all of the anti-gun people immediately accuse anyone who supports the 2nd amendment as using NRA talking points. Silly me, I actually meant it when I swore to support and defend that thing.

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Response to AlexSatan (Reply #67)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 06:03 PM

72. Good denial.

So you're denouncing the NRA positions even if they're the same one's your argue?

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #72)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 07:00 PM

78. I didn't realize I denounced them

 

Please read what I write, not what you want me to write.

I don't know what their positions are so I can't denounce them.

If you feel strongly enough about them to look them up, feel free to ask my opinion on them.

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #22)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 05:16 PM

62. I have seen several posts

calling a DUer who claimed to own one gun and is in favor of gun control a gun nut. A person who had inherited a family rifle but was not going to turn it in 'had blood on his hands too'

So no- no straw man

Would you care to address any of the posts calling for gun owners to be killed... with drones? I've seen at least two

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Response to sarisataka (Reply #62)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 05:19 PM

65. Yes. I denounce them completely.

Violence is never the answer to our problems. At the same time, you know very well that this does not represent even a small minority of thought on this topic.

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #65)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 05:34 PM

69. Agreed...

but those are the voices (pro or anti gun or control) that will keep the deadlock in place. {Yes, I knowingly chose that term. I believe it is appropriate}

Violence, gun or otherwise, is a complex issue. It is going to take a complex solution; but we need to make the first step somewhere.
It appears even the NRA may agree. I will patiently wait for their contribution. If it sucks, move on without them. December 14th will be a tipping point in many ways...

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Response to sarisataka (Reply #8)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 03:04 PM

35. The majority hold similar values, and yet a small contingent of RKBA-worshippers,

many of them racists, shouts down the majority.

Several of the loud minority are here only to prevent meaningful dialogue from taking place.

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Response to ThatPoetGuy (Reply #35)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 05:28 PM

68. I agree

yet any liberal gun owner is considered a nut. The number of people ignoring me has doubled this weekend; never have I advocated arming teachers-- horrible idea.

Yet I see very few pro-control members shushing their extremists.

Both sides are going to have to accept their anathema and speak with those holding opposing viewpoints. I like to think I am moderate but have sinned in the discussions . I am willing to try and try hard. If we fail, we know who will pay the price of that failure.

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Her favorite stuffed animal was a lamb; pink and purple were her favorite colors.
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"I never saw her without a smile," said Aimee Seaver, mother of a first-grader.
Hochsprung lived in Woodbury, Connecticut, with her husband, two daughters and three stepdaughters.
The longtime career educator majored in special education for her bachelor's and master's degrees in the 1990s and had just entered the Ph.D. program at Esteves School of Education at the Sage Colleges in New York last summer. Hochsprung led a school district's strategic planning panel and was the recipient of a national school grant.
Her accomplishments included overseeing the installation of a new security system requiring every visitor to ring the front entrance's doorbell after the school doors locked at 9:30 a.m.
"My mom, Dawn Hochsprung, was taken tragically from me. But she went down in a blaze of glory that truly represents who she was," her daughter, Cristina Hassinger, tweeted.

Jesse Lewis, 6
Jesse loved math, riding horses and playing at his mom's farm, his father told the New York Post.
"He was just a happy boy," said Neil Heslin. "Everybody knew Jesse."
He told the newspaper his son was to make gingerbread houses at school Friday. Heslin was planning to help.
Instead, the last time he saw his son was when he dropped him off at school at 9 a.m.
"He was going to go places in life," Heslin told the Post.

Ana Marquez-Greene, 6
"1, 2, 3, ready and go," Ana counts down in a homemade video provided to CNN affiliate WTIC.
The girl in pigtails stands in front of a piano as her brother plays. Her voice is clear, bigger than her size. Ana smiles and waves.
Her father, Jimmy Greene, is a jazz musician. His representative released a statement on Ana's death, describing the little girl as "beautiful and vibrant."
"The family has requested privacy at this time of heartbreaking loss," it read. They "have asked us to relay their sincere gratitude for the outpouring of support and sympathy locally, nationally and internationally."

Grace McDonnell, 7
The ultimate "girly girl." Grace loved wearing pink and playing dress-up with jewelry, her grandmother told the Boston Herald.
As Mary Ann McDonnell spoke, she was surrounded by Christmas presents meant for Grace, Gracie, as she was sometimes called.
The little girl loved art, gymnastics, soccer and her small spaniel, Puddin', her grandmother said.
"She was a wonderful little girl. She was always smiling," McDonnell told the newspaper. "I think everybody should know about these beautiful children whose lives were cut short."

Anne Marie Murphy, 52
A hero. That's how a first responder reportedly described Murphy to her father.
He told Newsday that authorities told him her body was found in a classroom, covering young children killed in the shooting in an apparent attempt to shield them.
"She died doing what she loved. She was serving children and serving God," Murphy's mother, Alice McGowan, told the newspaper.
A married mother of four, Murphy was artistic and hardworking, her parents said.
"She was a happy soul," her mother told Newsday. "She was a very good daughter, a good mother, a good wife."

Emilie Parker, 6
She could "light up a room," Emilie's father said about his oldest daughter.
Robbie Parker described her as "bright, creative and very loving." Emilie was always willing to try new things, he said, except food. Her laugh was infectious.
"My daughter Emilie would be one of the first ones to be standing up and giving her love and support to all of those victims, because that is the type of person she is," said Parker.
He said she was "an exceptional artist and she always carried around her markers and pencils so she never missed an opportunity to draw a picture or make a card for someone."
"This world is a better place because she has been in it," Parker said.
Emilie's aunt described her niece as the "sweetest little girl I've ever known."
The family is devastated that "someone so beautiful and perfect is no longer going to be in our lives and for no reason," said Jill Cottle Garrett.
Emilie's father, who works as a physician's assistant in the newborn unit at the Danbury hospital, recalled his last conversation with his daughter was in Portuguese, a language he was teaching her.
"She said that she loved me, and I gave her a kiss and I was out the door," he said.

Noah Pozner, 6
"He had a huge heart and he was so much fun, a little bit rambunctious, lots of spirit," Noah's aunt told CNN. "He was really the light of the room."
Victoria Haller said her nephew loved playing with his cousins and siblings, especially his twin sister.
"He was a gorgeous, gorgeous boy and he could really get what he wanted just by batting those long eyelashes and looking at you with those big blue eyes. You really couldn't say no to him," she said.
His siblings don't know yet the exact way in which Noah passed away, Haller said.
"How do you tell them that's how their brother died?" she asked. "It's the unthinkable really."

Jessica Rekos, 6
Jessica loved everything about horses -- horse movies, horse books, drawing horses and writing stories about them.
She asked Santa this year for new cowgirl boots and a cowgirl hat. Her family had promised she could get her own horse when she turned 10.
"She was a creative, beautiful, little girl," her family said in a statement, describing Jessica as their "rock."
"She had an answer for everything, she didn't miss a trick, and she outsmarted us every time. We called her our little CEO for the way she carefully thought out and planned everything," they said. "We can not imagine our life without her."
Jessica also loved orca whales and playing with her two little brothers.
"We are mourning her loss, sharing our beautiful memories we have of her, and trying to help her brother Travis understand why he can't play with his best friend," her family said.

Lauren Rousseau, 30
Rousseau, a permanent substitute teacher at Sandy Hook Elementary, "wanted to be a teacher from before she even went to kindergarten," her mother said in a written statement Saturday. "We will miss her terribly and will take comfort knowing that she had achieved that dream," Teresa Rousseau said.
She grew up in Danbury, Connecticut, and earned a bachelor's degree from the University of Connecticut and a master's degree in elementary education from the University of Bridgeport.
Rousseau "worked as a substitute teacher in Danbury, New Milford and Newtown before she was hired in November as a permanent substitute teacher at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown," her mother said.

Mary Sherlach, 56
Sherlach, Sandy Hook Elementary's school psychologist, was with Hochsprung when they heard a "pop, pop, pop" sound around 9:30 a.m., a parent with both women at the time told CNN. Sherlach was shot to death after heading into the hall to find out what was happening.
"I ... am always ready to assist in problem-solving, intervention and prevention," Sherlach wrote on her website.
Sherlach earned her undergraduate degree in psychology at SUNY Cortland and a master's degree at Southern Connecticut State University. She worked as a rehabilitation assistant at a group home for disabled adults and as a community mental health placement specialist before becoming a school psychologist.
She worked in three Connecticut school systems before moving to Sandy Hook Elementary in 1994. During her time in Newtown, Sherlach kept busy as a member of numerous groups such as the district conflict resolution committee, safe school climate committee, crisis intervention team and student instructional team.
Sherlach and her husband for more than three decades lived in Trumbull, Connecticut, and, together, they were "proud parents" of two daughters in their late 20s. Her website listed her interests as gardening, reading and going to the theater.

Victoria Soto, 27
Soto, a first-grade teacher at Sandy Hook Elementary, moved her students away from the classroom door when she heard gunfire, which students initially "thought were hammers falling," according to the father of one of her students.
"That's when the gunman burst in, did not say a word, no facial expressions, and proceeded to shoot their teacher," said Robert Licata, whose 6-year-old son, Aiden, escaped by running past the shooter.
Soto's mother said her daughter was selfless.
"She would not hesitate to think to save anyone else before herself and especially children. She loved them more than life, and she would definitely put herself in front of them any day," Donna Soto told CNN's Piers Morgan.
Soto wanted to be a teacher since she was 3 and talked about her students with "such fondness and caring," her mother said.
Soto's cousin, James Wiltsie, said Soto "instinctively went into action when a monster came into her classroom and tried to protect the kids that she loved so much."
"We just want the public to know that Vicki was a hero," he said.
Soto had a dog she loved. The black lab Roxie spent Saturday wandering around Soto's apartment, apparently looking for her, relatives said.

Other victims
Daniel Barden, 7; Josephine Gay, 7; Madeleine Hsu, 6; Catherine Hubbard, 6; Chase Kowalski, 7; James Mattioli, 6; Jack Pinto, 6; Caroline Previdi, 6; Avielle Richman, 6; Benjamin Wheeler, 6; Allison Wyatt, 6.


I will refuse to ever name the murder of such as these. They are lower than animals and no longer deserve the dignity of an indentity.

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Response to sarisataka (Reply #68)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 06:00 PM

70. Assuming there is any actual equivalency between "extremists" on

both sides of this debate, which I would consider false, why would the anti-gun extremists need any more shushing than they already receive?

On an ordinary day, if an anti-gun extremist, or an anti-gun moderate, posts anything anti-gun in GD, it will get shushed into the Gungeon.

In the Gungeon, if an anti-gun extremist, or an anti-gun moderate, posts anything anti-gun, it will get shushed by perhaps a dozen people, each of them posting fifteen or twenty times in every thread. It is already an obscene degree of piling-on, and it would be unethical to chastise someone who is in the middle of being bullied into silence.

(Yes, I've seen people expressing anti-gun sentiments that seem ridiculous, but they are seldom as inflexible as the pro-gun extremists, and far more willing to listen to reason, so long as they aren't being bombarded with propaganda.)

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Response to Stinky The Clown (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:12 PM

11. I am a lifetime gun ouner, shooter and hunter. I have no problem with sensible gun

laws. I think any semi auto gun and large capacity magazines should be treated like full autos are under the 1934 law. I think evey gun sale should have to
go through the same proces as sales today by license firearms dealers do. Now someone from the gungeon will say itcan't be done, it's too hard, it won't work,
so we do nothing.

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Response to Stinky The Clown (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:15 PM

12. To me, this is very much like the "why don't DU Christians do something about fundy nutjobs"

argument. Sharing some of the same beliefs and activities as another, more radicalized group of adults does not make you any more responsible for them than run-of-the-mill DUers. As with the fundies, it's the extremists among gun owners who get the press, leaving the impression that all gun owners are nutjobs... and they're going to get the press, because they're more "interesting" than people who hunt now and then or who enjoy target shooting but don't break out in a cold sweat if they can't have a gun within 12 inches of their hand.

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Response to gkhouston (Reply #12)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:19 PM

15. There is a massive difference between "being responible for them" being **hurt** by them.

I don't think all gun owners are gun nuts or NRA talking pointers.

I AM suggesting that responsible gun owners are, individually, being HURT by the gun nuts. I am not asking for defense of their positions. I am suggesting they ought to be thrown over as the face of guns in the country.

eta: And yes, Christians ARE being hurt by religious nutjobs.

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Response to gkhouston (Reply #12)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:20 PM

16. I was thinking the same thing.

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Response to gkhouston (Reply #12)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:57 PM

32. yup

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Response to Stinky The Clown (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:22 PM

17. It turns out Sandy Hook is something else we can blame Israel for.

Iran’s state-run news network blames ‘Israeli death squads’ for Sandy Hook shooting

PressTV portrays Adam Lanza as a “patsy” – their word – who is taking the fall for an Israeli special forces squad sent to punish President Obama for not better supporting Israel. The ongoing investigation is in fact, they argue, a concerted U.S. government “cover-up.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2012/12/18/irans-state-run-news-network-blames-israeli-death-squads-for-sandy-hook-shooting/

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Response to former9thward (Reply #17)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 02:32 PM

87. Keep the crazy shit out of serious threads, please

A secret Israeli hit squad did not shoot up some randomly selected elementary school.

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Response to Bucky (Reply #87)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 07:04 PM

88. I have seen the Iran state news agency quoted here many times.

When its says Iran has no nuclear weapon ambitions.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #88)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 07:06 PM

89. I'm sure you had a point when you started typing your response

but the relevance of Iran's nuclear ambitions to a non-discussion of phantom Israeli hit squads in Connecticut eludes me.

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Response to Bucky (Reply #89)

Sat Dec 22, 2012, 02:00 PM

90. My only point, poorly made, is the official Iran news agency has no credibility.

On any issue.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #90)

Sat Dec 22, 2012, 02:08 PM

91. I see your point.

But I have no idea why you chose this particular venue to articulate this point, which is probably why most people went, WTF?

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Response to Aerows (Reply #91)

Sat Dec 22, 2012, 02:25 PM

92. Good question. That is why it was poorly made.

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Response to Stinky The Clown (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:22 PM

18. Amen.

You said it well, Stinky the Clown.

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Response to Stinky The Clown (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:23 PM

19. I guess maybe I have a "fetish"

I have a collection of antique/historic guns, I picked most of them in the early-mid 80s at a fraction of whet they are worth now. I particularly like what you might call "cowboy guns". I have some SAA Colt "Peacemakers" and Lever action Winchesters, and I also have some modern replicas of those weapons. I also have a M-1 Garand and a Colt 1911 .45 auto. They are all in excellent working condition and I get them out and put a few rounds through them from time to time but I don't shoot them a lot.

I have a couple modern arms, A Ruger Mini 30 and Ruger 10-22. The 10-22 is my new favorite shooter, .22 ammo is cheap and a lot of fun to shoot, sometimes I'll spend a nice weekend afternoon just tearing some tin cans up.

I have no problem with passing tougher restrictions on sales and no problem with laws requiring safe storage. If high capacity box magazines are banned, eh, it wouldn't bother me that much either. I also have a daughter in 1st grade... what this latest animal did is beyond horrific to me. I understand there is a need to try and keep these things from happening and I'm open to measures to accomplish that end.

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Response to PD Turk (Reply #19)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:26 PM

21. Yup, you do. You have a collection of things that have the primary purpose of hurting or killing

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Response to HERVEPA (Reply #21)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:33 PM

24. You have proven my point quite well

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Response to bossy22 (Reply #24)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:52 PM

28. Glad to be of service.

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Response to bossy22 (Reply #24)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 03:10 PM

37. yup

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Response to PD Turk (Reply #19)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:47 PM

26. For the sake of this discussion, you're not a fetishist.

Since it is my OP, I can set the rules as to what is or isn't.

Anyway . . . . I see little wrong with what you own. I once had a British Enfield .308 bolt action from WWII. Cool looking gun. Flash arrestor muzzle on it. It was given to me as a gift. I soon enough sold it because I though the ammunition was too expensive. This was about 30 years ago, maybe longer. But I get your point. I collect old stuff too.

The sour graper also replying to you is way off base.

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Response to Stinky The Clown (Reply #26)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 03:22 PM

43. .303 Lee Enfield

Served the British well for decades, I'd love to have one for my collection.

The sour grapers don't bother me, I have a pretty thick skin

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Response to PD Turk (Reply #43)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 04:52 PM

57. :snap: You're right. .303, not .308 - hence the difficulty of finding ammo.

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Response to PD Turk (Reply #19)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 03:11 PM

38. I use that Ruger when I go trailrunning

It's a nice light, capable pistol.

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Response to Stinky The Clown (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:44 PM

25. I'm caught in the middle.

I'm called a murderer and a nut here for owning a couple pistols, but I have a few friends who take their guns way too seriously and had to run out and get CCW permits after the last election. Those people call me a liberal nut who wants to take their rights away because I supported Obama and other (gun grabbing) democratic candidates.

I've had endless arguments with them over the recent years about how these weekend warriors will be more likely to hurt an innocent, than protect themselves or others. I've begged them if someone tries to rob them to please not go for their gun, but indeed offer the gun to the robber as well. I have to point out that owning a gun doesn't make them James Bond, after all.

Now I come to DU and see endless headlines telling me I'm in the same boat as my gun fetish friends and that I should be banned forever from this site because I lived a long life around firearms.

These are the same people here who condemned others for overreacting after 9/11, for demanding a purge of anyone who had a middle east accent. The good DUers called for the govt to stop writing special laws and regulations that took away the rights of everyone because of what a few might do, but when it dovetails with their personal beliefs, they demand blanket legislation. They want my 100 year old Colt turned into slag and used to make Smart Cars because they foresee a utopian Nerf World where they'll finally be safe from the likes of me.

A lot of good blue collar democrats hunt and own guns, and if the Democratic Party (and DU) wants to shun them and push them over to the GOP, they'll make the same over-opinionated mistake the republicans (and Freeps) did when they pushed out pro-choice and fair tax moderates.

Like so many, I believe in stronger gun regulation, not an outright pipe dream ban that would be impossible to implement. I wouldn't mind seeing an end to flea market sales and increasing the level of background checks. I bought all my guns legally through registered gun dealers and even went through a five day waiting period for one. I didn't feel my rights were abridged by such regulations, but now I'm nothing but a sicko waiting for the right moment to commit mass murder according to far too many on my favorite website where I used to find camaraderie.

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Response to JohnnyRingo (Reply #25)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:54 PM

30. There are extremes. My OP wasn't aimed at the. It was aimed at YOU.

You're called a gun nut because they have been so loud and obnoxious. You're called a gun nut because they feel this stupid need to protect themselves from harm with a gun. Harm from who, I would ask. They, or people just like them, are the mind of George Zimmerman, really, fearing black people in white neighborhoods.

The point of my OP is to start to speak out against the gun nuts.

I dare say people like you, responsible people, even enthusiastic collectors, outnumber the nuts.




By the way . . . . a harder question: is there any upper limit to the sheer number of guns one can/should own?

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Response to Stinky The Clown (Reply #30)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 03:04 PM

34. But when we speak out, we are often called a gun nut

And whatever else. I am very liberal, I loathe the NRA (see my current OP about that), I own several gins and hold a CCW, the later for when I go running and when I travel by myself on lonely stretches of interstate. As current as last night, I was sneered and ridiculed and yelled out on here. Including correcting posters who post wrong facts about firearms.

THAT is why most of us don't speak out. When we do, for any reason, we are almost always attacked in some way, and generally group with the Gunegeoners. As my OP on the NRA stated, it is possible to be a gun owner and loathe teh NRA. It's also possible to be a gun owner and be liberal. There are a lot of us.

Frankly, it is unfair to US to expect us to prove a negative. As someone else said, it's like asking a Christian to speak out about Fundies.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #34)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 04:27 PM

51. I feel your pain.

Some people can't tell the difference between an owner and a cold blooded killer. With a sense of character recognition like that, I wouldn't crawl out from under the bed, even on a good day.

Tell this lovely young lady she's a far right gun nut who should be banished to the fringes of society:

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Response to JohnnyRingo (Reply #51)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 04:55 PM

58. Is that who it appears to be????

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Response to Stinky The Clown (Reply #58)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 05:00 PM

59. Yep, it's Rachel Maddow:

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Response to Stinky The Clown (Reply #58)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 05:19 PM

66. Her first date with her spouse was at an NRA shooting meet.

I don't carry, and I advise my friends not to either because they aren't well trained enough to defend themselves (or others), but if I got the death threats Ms Maddow does, I might be inclined to change my mind.

That pic came from her interview in Rolling Stone where she outlined her stance on responsible ownership. You'll hear her call for stricter regulation and background checks (which she'd pass), but she doesn't advocate an outright ban as so many here do.

Keep in mind that she labels herself as a "liberal, which is to say an Eisenhower Republican". As one who grew up in the Ohio rust belt where people hunt, unions rule, and we vote 2 to 1 for democrats, I guess I identify with that.

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Response to Stinky The Clown (Reply #30)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 03:53 PM

47. Certainly, there's a limit to how many guns one needs.

...but what about the quiet collector?

I'm talking about people who buy certain antiques that will never see a round fired because it hurts the value, then use it as an IRA or hand them down to heirs. How can you put a number on how many of those one should be able to own? No one has ever gone on a deadly shooting spree with a 19th century lever action Henry rifle like the one pictured below.

Collector guns are like antique cars where condition is everything. Avid car collectors are wont to add miles to their investment because the value diminishes with each drive, and guns can only be fired so many times before the violent internal explosion turns it into a rattling worn out hunk of metal. For most quality guns (read expensive), 5,000 times is the absolute life span, after which it's ready for the scrap yard. For what we used to call "Saturday Night Specials", it's much much less, but they aren't designed for anything but killing someone and tossing it in the river. The country could well do without those (and Yugos).

I sold most of my collection back in the '90s when I needed the money. Some of the antique single action Colts were in velvet lined presentation cases and unfired (a collector can tell). a couple were gold plated. Those particular guns were never built to kill anyone or anything. They were built as an investment, though deciding which ones will appreciate over time can take the shrewdness of Jim Cramer and the wherewithal of Bill Gates. As in every investment, some are blue chips, and others are penny stocks, cheap reproductions sold behind a smoke screen of hype and sentiment.

Right wing gun nut?... or enthusiast/collector?:



It'd be hard to tell unless you know her. Personally, I wouldn't worry about Rachel Maddow...nor would I assume she's defenseless.

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Response to Stinky The Clown (Reply #30)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 07:26 PM

80. Any gun owners not a LEO or rancher

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2024583


Others in that thread agree with that poster. THIS is why we don;t speak out.

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Response to JohnnyRingo (Reply #25)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:54 PM

31. Interesting choice for a screen name. Doesn't glorify violence or anything like that.


Johnny Ringo was a surly, bad-tempered man who was worse when he was drinking, and that his main claim to fame was shooting the unarmed Louis Hancock in an Arizona territory saloon in 1879 for ordering beer after Ringo told him to order whiskey.

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Response to HERVEPA (Reply #31)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 04:20 PM

50. You don't know my reason for choosing that handle twelve years ago.

I could go into it if I felt I had to, but it's rather personal. My closest friends know, but that's not you.

Now quit being a dumbass knee jerk, jump on the bandwagon, finger pointer, and I'll treat you with more respect by letting you drink all the beer you want.

You're grasping at straws here to make some offhanded accusatory point I don't even care to understand.

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Response to JohnnyRingo (Reply #25)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 04:32 PM

53. You've been tarred with the bad rep of others

sorry bout that but...

"I wouldn't mind seeing an end to flea market sales"... this is just not good enough. Why not come out and be strong against those who abuse the lax laws and regulations? If you're a responsible gun owner, why not join the voices of those crying out for better laws and better enforcement? That would make you a really responsible gun owner, instead of a defensive whiner. Don't take that as an insult--we whine and complain about a lot of things around here.

If you don't get respect from your gun fetish friends for being a more responsible gun owner, maybe you can ditch them and find some more like yourself? If you're a single issue voter, then maybe you might consider going with the GOP, since you'll never have any worries with them? Just a suggestion.

It's good to see gun owners with some conscience left, as you appear to be. But don't come here and expect to get a whole lot of support today. Unrealistic.

If "comraderie" here depends on how the majority opinion goes about guns...well sorry, but you will have to take a break from DU and let posters here have one of the few opportunities where we can speak out safely and emphatically on the subject, and it's not even buried in the Gungeon.

Can't compare the gun issue to pro-choice. Lame comparison. If guns are where it's at for you--the most important political issue for you--then GOP is where to go. Dems are way too split on the subject. I don't think you'll convince anybody around here who is against guns to your POV. Not gonna happen.

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Response to marions ghost (Reply #53)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 04:50 PM

55. My issue is labor

As a second generation retired union member, that's always been my primary focus in politics.

I very seldom visit the gungeon because I get shot down there (pun) for being critical to what I consider over the top positions. I don't find much common ground there, and increasingly in this forum. That's why I declared myself "in the middle" on gun ownership. Since I'm in the mood for puns today, one could say I'm caught in a crossfire.

Though I am a bit insulted at your suggestion that I join the GOP, I realize you don't know me. I believe that a lot of good democrats own firearms, and the consensus here doesn't alter that fact. Even some of my "gun fetish" friends are blue collar registered democrats, they just have personal issues that makes them think they have to be armed 24/7. I can't abandon a lifelong friend for that one flaw anymore than I would change the channel because my favorite MSNBC hostess packs heat.

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Response to JohnnyRingo (Reply #55)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 07:20 PM

79. I said...clearly

that IF your big beef with Dems is over guns--then either take a strong stand for change the laws or just go with the GOP. IF guns are your biggest issue. You will never get anywhere with arguing with Dems on this subject. There is too much division. I'm sure I can't convince your gun-loving Dem-voting friends to see it my way.

Your point about the gungeon which I never go to--do you mean you argue with those who are "over the top" in favor of restrictions or the opposite? Since you're in the middle.

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Response to marions ghost (Reply #79)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 03:45 AM

82. I debate the people who see guns as an end all to our social problems.

I don't go there very often because I get eviscerated when I talk common sense regulation.

Guns, as I've pointed out, are not my biggest issue in life though... labor is.

Unlike you, I don't see guns as a partisan issue. Millions of good democrats own guns and will fight for the right to retain them. If the Democrats try to purge the party of gun owners, as you seem to advocate, they will face the same fate as Republicans who shunned pro-abortion and fair tax moderates. I love my party because there is no litmus test (yet) for membership other than racial tolerance.

I don't BTW, plan on surrendering my 100 year old Colt .380 Pocket Model auto to grant someone a false sense of security when they can't tell the difference between a responsible gun owner and a psycho killer. The onus is upon the accuser to provide evidence that anyone and everyone who owns a gun is a complete nut case. When that is accomplished, guns will be banned forever.

You'll never hear this woman call for a unilateral ban, and I'd never use the word "nut" to address her:

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Response to JohnnyRingo (Reply #82)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:57 AM

83. Democrats aren't in lock-step like Republicans

so there will be Dem-voting gun lovers and Dem-voting gun haters. I accept that fact. I don't think one group will change the other. But I reserve the right to criticize anyone who still advocates FOR guns.

No serious hunter thinks they need a Bushmaster. They're not for hunting. They're for killing people. And each one of these massacres takes us further down the ladder of descent into social hell. And what's really depressing is that they only reflect the general level of gun violence in the US.

Gun violence is our American national disease and no matter what party we vote for, we are negligent and complicit if we do not speak out & work against it.

So Dems do NOT have to accept gun violence for fear of turning people away from the party. That is ridiculous. Hell, even Joe Scabro thinks this is shit. Why can't Dem gun owners get the message here?

And Rachel Maddow shooting some kind of antique musket at a target range does not impress me as a serious argument for guns.

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Response to marions ghost (Reply #83)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:04 PM

84. If you lived on a ranch in Montana....

Last edited Thu Dec 20, 2012, 12:33 AM - Edit history (1)

...you may have a different view of a Bushmaster. Though I don't have one, and personally I don't need one, a semi-auto high powered rifle can be a useful tool when out checking remote stretches of fence or searching the wilds for stray livestock. Even having one within close reach around the home for people who live in remote areas, can mean the difference between defense from nature's carnivores and losing a small child.

Certainly if one sees such a weapon in downtown Chicago, it takes on a much more sinister motive, but for those whose job requires lone work beyond the range of cell towers, it can be a life saver. An angry mother bear or a mountain lion can ruin the day for someone who frequents the outer reaches of one's land as a routine matter of necessity. You'd think a couple hits from a .357 revolver or a shotgun would halt such a threat in it's tracks, but you'd be wrong.

The picture I posted came from the interview of Rachel in Rolling Stone Magazine last year. In it she tells of how her and her girlfriend's first date was at an NRA shoot. She agrees with me that we need common sense regulation to keep dangerous ordinance out of the hands of criminals or the mentally deranged, but she'll never call for an outright ban of all firearms that would be logistically impossible to implement and enforce anyway.

That "antique musket", as you referred to it, is a late 1800s Henry lever action repeating rifle. It and it's close cousin, the Winchester '74, were considered the assault rifles of their day. Before they were invented, people used muskets where a single lead ball had to be tamped down into the barrel with a charge of black powder, a primer cap added to the hammer, fired, and repeated. The Henry, using modern brass cartridges, could be fired as fast as one could work the lever, chambering another round until the tube magazine under the barrel was empty.

If someone wants to write common sense laws that curtail mass murders, that's fine with me, but I hope they at least know the difference between a medieval blunderbuss and an M4 military assault rifle with laser sighting.

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Response to JohnnyRingo (Reply #84)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 02:04 PM

85. People lived on Montana ranches for a long time without the

Bushmaster. But let's don't carry this on further. You and I will never agree--but we can both vote Dem because of course we're both for more regulation and elimination of assault weapons from a civilized society.

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Response to JohnnyRingo (Reply #25)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 02:28 PM

86. ^^^this^^^^

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Response to Stinky The Clown (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 03:06 PM

36. Because the guns the nutjobs stockpile

Are also very popular with hunters, target shooters and responsible gun owners?

The vast majority of gun owners don't hunt; that is a dying sport in this country as more people leave the countryside for the suburbs and cities. Sales of bolt-action deer rifles are falling fast; same goes for lever-action and pump-action guns that kick hard and are expensive to feed.

The majority of gun owners DO own semi-automatic firearms, such as handguns and rifles, because they like to shoot targets and keep them for self-defense in their homes. And the features on them that make them so appealing to the nuts also make them good for responsible shooters: low recoil, accuracy, cheap ammo, ergonomics, etc.

That's probably the most likely explanation I could give you.

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Response to Stinky The Clown (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 03:18 PM

39. A couple of reasons

First the gun fetish crowd are basically assholes and we don't hang out together. The ones who are skeered of the others, are racists and again we don't hang out together. They guys I hunt with (and it's been a while since I've been out) are pretty much like me. Several deer rifles, a couple of shotguns and maybe a revolver or a glock to carry while hunting or fishing with a couple of snake loads on top of solid ammo just in case you get into a surprising situation, on the East coast most likely it would be a feral dog pack or a mama black bear who are very protective of the cubs.

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Response to hootinholler (Reply #39)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 03:21 PM

42. and feral pigs

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Response to Stinky The Clown (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 03:18 PM

40. You seem to understand it better than you think.

Big booms! Yeah, it was visceral and in some ways kind of exciting. Cool. Big mechanical things making big noises. There's something in all that that seems to appeal to the testosterone rich among us.

To this day, I love the sound of unmuffled airplanes flying low and fast at air shows, of jets going vertical with afterburners flaming. Of cars going very fast. I love the concussion of the sound as it hits you, washes over and envelops you. I love that shit. I can see how guns hit that same spot.


Mix that with the physical and mental disciplines to be a good shot and you get a fun hobby if you can afford the expenses.

Why can't honest gun owners, the kind I describe above, why can't they put social pressure on the (okay, I'll go there) "gun nuts" to stop being so . . . . . I dunno, nutty?


I think much of this is easily attributed to most "honest gun owners" not knowing any "gun nuts". Your examples of "The survivalists. the castle people. those who fear crime from those of other skin colors" could also be described as "nuts, some of who own guns". If you are not into those main activities, you probably don't know those people.

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Response to ManiacJoe (Reply #40)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 03:20 PM

41. Your last paragraph nails it

I don't know people like that, or racists, or homophobes, or xenophobes.

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Response to ManiacJoe (Reply #40)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 03:30 PM

45. You don't need to know any of the nuts to speak out against the

You have not been served well by the NRA, for example. They are shoulder to shoulder with the nuts and survivalists. You can actually agree with some of their points and still speak against the organization itself.

If I do it, I'm suspect in my reasons for doing so. I am seen to have an agenda.

you, on the other hand, can be a "responsible gun owner" demonstrating your responsibility and telling the NRA extremists they don't speak for you.

Get some non gun nut politicians to take up your cause.

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Response to Stinky The Clown (Reply #45)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 06:42 PM

77. I have an anti NRA OP in GD and still get insulted

Because I own guns and don't see anything wrong with that.

Why the hell should I care what the NRA says??? I don't care about the GOP, Teabaggers, or anyone else like that. I'm not part of any of those organizations.

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Response to ManiacJoe (Reply #40)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 04:30 PM

52. I personally don't know people like that either

I don't hunt anymore and while I have a couple of bolt action rifles, I've never fired them. My former father-in-law has many guns but I've never seen him fire a single one as he has them mainly as collector items.

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Response to Stinky The Clown (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 03:30 PM

44. I've owned and used guns and am not afraid of them. But anything beyond guns for food or

self defense are, to me "the perversion of guns. The fetishistic aspects." I see no reason right now to own a gun, even with 300 million of them floating around. I don't see any good conversations beyond the obvious reasons gun owners stroke each other with about "hunting" defenseless animals for food, or some story about self defense. Those I never heard when I did own guns.

My stance is that gun owners do nothing for society. They are cowardly and deluded by the act of ownership into thinking that they're safe and/or powerful. They're not. They're not facing the realities of dealing with injustices of others who are suffering the erosion of their other constitutional rights in this society.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. When gun owners see their fellow citizens getting beaten up, maced and dragged off to jail for exercising their constitutional right to protest injustices to this society, do they run out with their guns to protect these people from the gubmint? Hell, no. They don't protect anybody from anything. EVER. They're too cowardly. They just want to own guns for the illusion of power they get from it. Period.

Show me some stats -- not blog anecdotes -- to the contrary and I'll reconsider my claims.

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Response to ancianita (Reply #44)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 04:50 PM

56. I own guns to protect my family. Period.

Why don't I go out and shoot a cop for arresting a protester? Are you freakin' SERIOUS??? REALLY?????

Why do I need one to protect my family? Because when seconds matter, the police are minutes away.

You can argue with that after you've been here longer.

Bake

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Response to Bake (Reply #56)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 09:58 PM

81. How much longer? What qualifies you to say? When does a DU'er get to argue life and death matters?

I have as much right as you to criticize the general use of guns no matter how long or short a time I've been here. You're overreacting and personalizing this, which isn't the least bit constructive.

Anyway. Your reason is fair, and if you're representative, why not school me. A small majority of gun owners own guns for hunting and sport. The fight to keep guns for those reasons doesn't outweigh the bloodshed that gun use, overall, has brought. No gun owner I know of has an answer for the children killed since the 70's from guns.

http://www.childrensdefense.org/child-research-data-publications/data/protect-children-not-guns-2012.pdf

If you don't want to protect anyone but your family with your gun, I don't care. But for all the hoo-rah over gun owners' precious constitutional rights, they sure as hell do sound as if everyone else's constitutional rights can go to hell as long as they can still cling to their guns. If they can show up at an Obama speech to show off their rights, they sure as hell can show up at a constitutionally protected assembly to do the same. Are you thinking that gun owners know that they'll always be outnumbered, always outgunned?




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Response to Stinky The Clown (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 03:55 PM

48. I've been keeping a low profile since the Sandy Hook massacre.


I'm not sure most of DU wants to hear much from me. And the grief of all these deaths still has me on edge.

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Response to Stinky The Clown (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 04:08 PM

49. "Since when did hunting become target shooting"

Interesting little article on the subject (excerpt):
http://www.hcn.org/wotr/17388/print_view

"I’ve been a hunter, but never that kind of devoted hunter. It only took one incident to convince me I was not a killer for sport. I was a teenager when I shot a cottontail in the woods of northeastern Ohio, but when I went to pick up the dead rabbit, it was gone. The wounded animal had dragged its bloody body into a dense thicket where I couldn’t reach it. Although I’d never intended to skin the rabbit to bring it home for dinner, the idea of leaving an animal to suffer and die in the underbrush made me feel sick. I decided then that if I wasn’t going to kill for food, I couldn’t be a hunter.

The naturalist Joseph Wood Krutch once said, ”When a man wantonly destroys one of the works of man we call him vandal. When he wantonly destroys one of the works of God we call him sportsman.” I may not be that radical in my assessment of hunters, but I’ve begun to think that hunting doves brings out the worst in people.

A few days after the season began, my dog and I went for a hike in the desert behind a mountain outside of Las Cruces. The first thing I saw was what looked like a tornado of turkey vultures – 15 or 20 birds spiraling at various heights above the desert floor. Then, not 20 yards off the paved road near a new subdivision called Tierra Escondida, we came upon hundreds of 12-gauge shotgun casings, an empty 24-pack of beer and a dozen assorted wings and other body parts of decimated doves. Whoever had hunted here had blasted away, relishing something other than the taste of succulent dove meat.

That’s what’s unsettling. How do you educate these people? And what can be done about them? If officers from New Mexico Game and Fish had made contact with these shooters, the hunters could be cited only if they failed to possess valid licenses and stamps for that specific area. If game wardens returned later and found that the site had not been cleaned properly, the hunters could be cited only for littering. But short of having psychologists doubling as conservation officers, there’s no way to determine a hunter’s motivation. Even if an officer could cite somebody for an illegal motive, what would it be -- taking too much pleasure in the kill?"

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Response to Stinky The Clown (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 06:16 PM

76. My 5 yo son got me back into hunting 3 years ago.

I hadn't went hunting since the fall he was born. I'd only went once or twice a year for the past 20 years.

He reintroduced me to hunting so to speak, I've spent the last 3 seasons hunting with the greatest hunting buddy I've ever had.

My father had zero use for military style firearms and only owned one 25 auto pistol. We only had two pistols in the family until 1986 or so.

Shotguns were the thing in our family, we had 40 or 50 of them among my Grandfather, Father, brother and I. It's down to my brother and I now. Most years go buy without me doing anything with my shotguns except cleaning them.

I do love to coyote hunt with my AR, and I'm currently in hold mode building a deer rifle (6.8, 300blk, or 6.5 I can't decide) with another lower I built early this year.

My wife and kids love shooting my other AR with the CMMG 22lr conversion, it's a load of fun to plink with at the range.

For my EDC I carry a LCP my wife decided on a smith revolver for hers earlier this year.

Anyway....I've put most of my gun funds into Dirt bikes and plan on the bulk of our fun budget to go that direction in the coming year.

Stay Safe..

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Response to Stinky The Clown (Original post)

Sat Dec 22, 2012, 02:32 PM

93. wow, not one "sensible" gun owner thinks they should say anything anti NRA. Lazy chickenshit selfish

attitude. You all need to stop whining about how you're perceived because it's all on you.

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