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Tue Dec 18, 2012, 10:59 AM

It's more dangerous to be a pre-schooler in America than it is to be a cop on duty

ALMOST TWICE AS MANY PRESCHOOLERS ARE KILLED BY GUNS AS ARE COPS | According to the Children’s Defense Fund, nearly twice as many preschoolers were killed by guns in 2008-2009 as there were law enforcement officers killed in the line of duty:




http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/12/17/1343291/almost-twice-as-many-preschoolers-are-killed-by-guns-as-are-cops/

82 replies, 4457 views

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Reply It's more dangerous to be a pre-schooler in America than it is to be a cop on duty (Original post)
MrScorpio Dec 2012 OP
Fumesucker Dec 2012 #1
slackmaster Dec 2012 #2
cynatnite Dec 2012 #4
slackmaster Dec 2012 #6
cynatnite Dec 2012 #9
slackmaster Dec 2012 #10
cynatnite Dec 2012 #15
cleanhippie Dec 2012 #20
laundry_queen Dec 2012 #27
cleanhippie Dec 2012 #48
99Forever Dec 2012 #53
cleanhippie Dec 2012 #54
99Forever Dec 2012 #57
cleanhippie Dec 2012 #60
99Forever Dec 2012 #62
cleanhippie Dec 2012 #65
99Forever Dec 2012 #67
cleanhippie Dec 2012 #70
99Forever Dec 2012 #71
cleanhippie Dec 2012 #72
laundry_queen Dec 2012 #81
cynatnite Dec 2012 #30
99Forever Dec 2012 #21
slackmaster Dec 2012 #28
99Forever Dec 2012 #35
slackmaster Dec 2012 #45
99Forever Dec 2012 #51
slackmaster Dec 2012 #55
99Forever Dec 2012 #58
99Forever Dec 2012 #74
slackmaster Dec 2012 #76
99Forever Dec 2012 #79
Bake Dec 2012 #73
The Magistrate Dec 2012 #36
ProdigalJunkMail Dec 2012 #37
slackmaster Dec 2012 #46
ProdigalJunkMail Dec 2012 #47
99Forever Dec 2012 #52
ProdigalJunkMail Dec 2012 #69
H2O Man Dec 2012 #64
CreekDog Dec 2012 #78
FarCenter Dec 2012 #3
cynatnite Dec 2012 #5
mainer Dec 2012 #7
FarCenter Dec 2012 #11
mainer Dec 2012 #16
FarCenter Dec 2012 #42
Arkansas Granny Dec 2012 #8
coalition_unwilling Dec 2012 #12
FarCenter Dec 2012 #13
coalition_unwilling Dec 2012 #17
RZM Dec 2012 #14
laundry_queen Dec 2012 #31
Fumesucker Dec 2012 #18
cleanhippie Dec 2012 #22
Fumesucker Dec 2012 #25
cleanhippie Dec 2012 #49
Fumesucker Dec 2012 #56
cleanhippie Dec 2012 #59
Lizzie Poppet Dec 2012 #63
cthulu2016 Dec 2012 #23
Fumesucker Dec 2012 #26
bongbong Dec 2012 #29
Fumesucker Dec 2012 #34
bongbong Dec 2012 #44
cthulu2016 Dec 2012 #19
coalition_unwilling Dec 2012 #24
Recursion Dec 2012 #32
Ikonoklast Dec 2012 #38
bongbong Dec 2012 #33
RZM Dec 2012 #40
bongbong Dec 2012 #43
The Magistrate Dec 2012 #39
Lizzie Poppet Dec 2012 #41
Robb Dec 2012 #50
Lizzie Poppet Dec 2012 #61
WastedSaint Dec 2012 #66
HiPointDem Dec 2012 #68
Logical Dec 2012 #75
slackmaster Dec 2012 #77
OneTenthofOnePercent Dec 2012 #80
Raine Dec 2012 #82

Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 11:01 AM

1. Clearly this shows that we need to arm preschoolers

/gun nut

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 11:02 AM

2. Nice exercise in creative arithmetic

 

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #2)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 11:14 AM

4. How so? Can you be specific?

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Response to cynatnite (Reply #4)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 11:15 AM

6. Here's a hint: Are there as many police officers in this country as there are pre-school children?

 

Or is one group significantly larger than the other?

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #6)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 11:20 AM

9. So it's not creative arithmatic...

Gotcha.

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Response to cynatnite (Reply #9)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 11:22 AM

10. Do you understand the difference between a rate and a raw count?

 

Have you ever taken a course in statistics?

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #10)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 11:41 AM

15. This was not creative arithmatic...

It was actual numbers.

You feel that that the number of preschoolers killed is larger because it's a larger group than the number of cops. I'm not arguing that.

I'm arguing that in no way should a civilized society accept more children killed by gun violence than cops killed no matter which group is larger.

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Response to cynatnite (Reply #15)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 11:56 AM

20. Actual numbers, like < 1 mil cops and >60 mil children (under 14)

Now, do the math, and what is more dangerous? Who is more likely to be shot?


You're right, it's not creative arithmetic, it's food for the ignorant. Put. Down. The. Fork.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #20)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 12:06 PM

27. preschoolers, dude.

read the OP. 'preschoolers' are a fraction of children. Namely those that are 3-4 years old. Not all children under 14. Sheesh. Creative arithmetic indeed.

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Response to laundry_queen (Reply #27)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 01:38 PM

48. Does google not work for you?

There are millions more preschoolers than cops.

Again, put down the fork.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #48)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:05 PM

53. Does Google say how ...

...many of those "millions more preschoolers than cops" have chosen occupations that put them directly in the line of fire?



Please educate me, as I can't seem to find any.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #53)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:06 PM

54. Hahaha! Now you're moving the goalposts.

Classic.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #54)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:23 PM

57. Way to shuck and jive.

How did I know you wouldn't have the integrity to honestly answer to question?

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #57)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:30 PM

60. There is no honesty or integrity in the question to begin with.

But you can keep rationalizing if you want. It's pretty entertaining.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #60)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:33 PM

62. So you have nothing.

I accept your surrender, and I didn't need a gun to get it.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #62)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:41 PM

65. Yes, for nothing you get nothing.

The only surrender here is your intellect to ignorance.

You have a nice day.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #65)


Response to 99Forever (Reply #62)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 03:28 PM

70. Damn. I missed your post before you self deleted.

Why did you self delete?

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #70)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 03:43 PM

71. I stop engaging...

... when it's an exercise in futility. You clearly don't have the integrity to honestly answer a completely relevant question. As such, you make yourself irrelevant to further conversation.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #71)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 03:52 PM

72. Ahh, I see. You recognized that all you have left is projection.

So you deleted. Got it. You should delete your lady post, too. It's all projection.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #48)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 08:40 PM

81. Read downthread genius.

Way ahead of you. Your stats are still wrong.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #20)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 12:17 PM

30. I'm not arguing the actual numbers at all...

It's preschoolers. PRESCHOOLERS!

I don't care that there are more preschoolers than cops in this country. I care that more kids than cops are being killed.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #10)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 11:57 AM

21. So mr slack...

... precisely what "rate" or "raw count" of shot dead and seriously wounded preschoolers is it that we are supposed to find acceptable? How many of those preschoolers decided to pursue activities or an occupation that knowingly put them into the line of fire?

What the fuck is wrong with you?

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #21)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 12:10 PM

28. Rates and raw counts of zero would be acceptable to me.

 

How about you?

ETA I also believe that critical thinking should be taught in public schools.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #28)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 12:22 PM

35. Then why are you pimping the NRA talking points?



And it's also not surprising that you completely FAILED to address the rest of my response. How many of those preschoolers knowingly put themselves in the line of fire. Feel free to use either "rate" or "raw count" in your response. You want an apples to apples comparison? There it is.

Speak up. I can't hear you.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #35)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 01:10 PM

45. The difference between a statistical rate and a raw count is now an "NRA talking point?"

 

DU has fallen down a rabbit hole.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #45)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 01:55 PM

51. Going to answer the questions or just..

... keep dancing around them?




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Response to 99Forever (Reply #51)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:08 PM

55. Your questions are insulting, and the math issue is plain as day to anyone who finished sixth grade.

 

I will not indulge your juvenile attempts to smear me.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #55)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:29 PM

58. Honesty is insulting?

Really?

You still haven't answered the question:


How many preschoolers have taken occupations that put them directly in the line of fire?

You bitched about the framing of the OP. I set up an absolute apples to apples comparison and you won't take the challenge it presents.

So, going to keep dodging or get honest?

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #45)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 06:05 PM

74. No smartguy...

... the stupid fucking NRA talking point that preschoolers and cops are at equal risk of being shot is a stupid fucking NRA talking point. But go right ahead and pretend that isn't what I said. It's all NRA apologists have left.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #74)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 07:00 PM

76. Obviously police officers are at much greater risk of getting shot than preschoolers are.

 

To claim otherwise is simply ridiculous.

... the stupid fucking NRA talking point that preschoolers and cops are at equal risk of being shot is a stupid fucking NRA talking point. But go right ahead and pretend that isn't what I said. It's all NRA apologists have left.

I can't make heads or tails of this post.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #76)


Response to 99Forever (Reply #35)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 05:00 PM

73. You're just wrong, that's why slack didn't answer

Let me spell it out for you. Your question is irrelevant to the OP's assertion that it's more dangerous to be a preschooler than to be a cop. Doesn't matter whether one "chooses" to be a preschooler or a cop. If one is more dangerous than the other, it doesn't matter whether it's "voluntary." What does matter is population size and deaths per 1,000 (or some similar statistical measure).

If you don't understand that, you need to go back to school. I'm done with you.

Bake

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #28)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 12:23 PM

36. Expect To See You Make This Comment, Sir

Any time someone from 'Team NRA' trots out claims it is more dangerous to live in Chicago then to be a soldier in Afghanistan....

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #10)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 12:27 PM

37. why do people post stats

to support some point and then get mad when their statistics turn out to be not very supportive of their point and begin stating that looking at the statistics is unimportant?


sP

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Response to ProdigalJunkMail (Reply #37)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 01:12 PM

46. Because they are too proud to admit that they have been caught at a deception, I suppose

 

Or too embarrassed to admit that they don't understand basic math.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #46)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 01:14 PM

47. i am guessing the latter...

deception seems to be a motive more often than not... leading to a willful ignorance of math.

sP

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Response to ProdigalJunkMail (Reply #47)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:01 PM

52. Seems that your "math" pal isn't really interested in...

.. an actual apples to apples comparison, as shown in his reply to my #35. Perhaps you have more integrity and will.


I await your "mathy" response. Thanks.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #52)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 03:26 PM

69. actually, you are the one not interested in apples to apples

but that wouldn't serve your argument. using two different populations and then comparing individual counts between the populations is a nasty habit you should really look at working on. if not watched carefully, you might end up posting something that, in actuality, refutes your own point... oh, wait... you already did that.

sP

OnEdit : sorry, you're not the OP in this thread...but you're touting the same garbage mathematics

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #2)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:36 PM

64. Correct.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #2)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 07:06 PM

78. thank you for stepping in so quickly to protect the reputation of the lowly gun

ever the victim of so many horrible insults, the reputation of the gun must be protected at all costs.

oh the humanity. that a gun's feelings might be hurt!

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 11:09 AM

3. They are almost always killed at home by family members, not at preschool

Homicides of children in school are quite rare.

The home is by far the most dangerous place for children.

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Response to FarCenter (Reply #3)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 11:15 AM

5. I think the point is that guns kill more children than cops. n/t

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Response to FarCenter (Reply #3)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 11:16 AM

7. Yes home is dangerous. Why make it more dangerous with guns?

I'm pretty shocked by this statistic, that so many preschoolers are killed by guns.

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Response to mainer (Reply #7)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 11:26 AM

11. In 2011 there were 385 homicides of children aged 0 to 4.

So considering that some of the 173 deaths by gun includes some accidents, somewhat less than 50% of the 385 homicides would be with guns.

Note that the most dangerous age is less than 1 year old. It certainly doesn't take a gun to kill someone that age.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-2
Murder Victims
by Age, Sex, and Race, 2011

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Response to FarCenter (Reply #11)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 11:42 AM

16. Yeah, but that "somewhat less than 50%" needn't have happened at all

If there were no guns in the house.

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Response to mainer (Reply #16)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 12:33 PM

42. Your assuming that the perpetrator would not have used other means

Pre-schoolers are pretty easy to kill with a knife, by strangulation, blunt force trauma, etc.

Are we going to remove kitchen knives, drapery pulls, and hammers?

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Response to FarCenter (Reply #3)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 11:16 AM

8. If that's the case, doesn't it make sense to have better gun control laws to prevent

those family members who are so mentally unstable that they would kill a child from acquiring guns in the first place?

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Response to FarCenter (Reply #3)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 11:29 AM

12. Are you disputing the OP or agreeing with it? I'm having trouble

 

figuring out your point. Those numbers speak for themselves, methinks.

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Reply #12)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 11:37 AM

13. The title would leave the impression that pre-school is a dangerous place, which is wrong.

Note that the comparison is between gun deaths of pre-schoolers and cops "on-duty".

The correct comparison would be gun deaths of pre-school aged individuals versus cops on and off-duty weighted by populations, e.g. gun deaths annually per 100,000 persons. Otherwise, as noted above, the comparison is pretty meaningless.

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Response to FarCenter (Reply #13)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 11:51 AM

17. I got you. Absolute numbers of deaths in the respective populations say

 

nothing about the respective chances of death in each population, since there are many more pre-schoolers than on-duty cops.

Sorry, haven't had enough coffee yet this a.m.

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 11:38 AM

14. Totally meaningless stat

 

There are at least 10 times as many preschool age children in this country as law enforcement officers.

Not only that, but if you restrict it to the types of police officers who are shot (i.e., those who are out on the street), the disparity is even greater. It's far more dangerous to be a police officer than a preschool-age child.

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Response to RZM (Reply #14)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 12:17 PM

31. So I looked it up

and found that there are nearly a million police officers in the US, and preschool, which is generally defined as 3 to 4 year olds, is not counted for separately in US statistics, so all we have to go on is the population for under 5 is 19 milion - so nearly 20 times.

Still doesn't mean it's a meaningless statistic. It's still horrific, and minimizing it is shocking to me.

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 11:54 AM

18. Forget about the naysayers and carpers, this is a powerful statement

The gun nuts have absolutely no compunction at all about lying with statistics, I don't mind the occasional exaggeration on our side.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #18)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 11:58 AM

22. Sure, it's powerful if one subscribes to ignorance.

For those with the ability to think critically, it's meaningless garbage designed to stoke the emotions of the ignorant.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #22)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 12:03 PM

25. Well, that's about five percent of the population and I think I'm being generous with that

I'm reminded of Adlai Stevenson's reply to the woman who told him he had the support of every thinking American.

Madam, that is not enough, we need a majority.

Politics is indeed about emotion far more than it is logic or rationality, that's why we've been losing so badly for so long.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #25)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 01:41 PM

49. If we have to surrender critical, rational thought and logic to emotion in order to "win"

Then we have already lost.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #49)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:12 PM

56. As I said, that's about five percent of the population that will respond to rational thought

How do you suggest we get the rest to see things our way when the other side is constantly using what works with them, emotion?

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #56)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:29 PM

59. We keep trying. Lowering ourselves to that level is regressive, not progressive.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #59)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:33 PM

63. +1

Superb point...

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #18)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 11:59 AM

23. Great. So neither side need be taken seriously.

I feel much more strongly about such bullshit on my side than on the other side.

I have expectations of intellectual honesty on my side.

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Response to cthulu2016 (Reply #23)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 12:06 PM

26. Politics isn't about facts and logic nearly as much as it is about emotion and tribalism

Depends whether you think the issues are important enough to go for the jugular or not.

On this one I think they are.

Man is not a rational animal, man is an animal that rationalizes.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #18)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 12:16 PM

29. It's not exaggeration

 

When you consider that cops' job is to be in the line of fire. Their JOB.

In contrast, pre-schoolers shouldn't have jobs; I thought the Child Labor Laws took care of that.

In light of this fact, the death rate per-capita by guns of pre-schoolers vs. cops should be on the order of 1/1000 or less.

The NRA and it's bots will probably endorse buying body armor for American kids soon.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #34)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 12:50 PM

44. Yep!

 

The Delicate Flowers will do ANYTHING but address the real problem: guns.

I can see their point, however. They are too scared to leave the house without a gun, preferably many guns that fire many bullets very quickly. They would run out of Cheetos and starve.

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 11:56 AM

19. Wow. That's headline is just FALSE.

It is obviously not "more dangerous." There are many more pre-schoolers than cops.

And we can now dismiss anything childrensdefense.org has to say since they are an intellectually dishonest outfit to present such a silly stat in hopes of deceiving people as to its meaning.

Just don't lie or distort.

Ever.

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Response to cthulu2016 (Reply #19)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 12:02 PM

24. I think the disconnect comes in the title of the OP vs. the material the OP cites. The

 

absolute numbers of fatalities speak for themselves but do not convey any information about the degree of 'danger' each population faces.

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 12:19 PM

32. It's orders of magnitude safer to be in a preschool than to be a police officer

Arithmetic fail.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #32)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 12:29 PM

38. The weight the two categories respective to the relative exposure to danger.

Bet the police number pales in comparison.

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 12:19 PM

33. Amazing

 

Amazing how the NRA-bots are whining about the OP.

Cops have a job; it involves being in the line of fire. I forgot where it says pre-schoolers are supposed to be in mortal danger just because they live in America (as opposed to those nasty socialist dumps like Germany, Sweden, or France).

The death rate for pre-schoolers, due to some clown needing a Precious to bolster his self-esteem, should be zero.

Amazing....

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Response to bongbong (Reply #33)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 12:30 PM

40. You know full well the headline doesn't pass statistical muster

 

You know that's the reason people are 'whining about the OP.' You also know that none of this has anything to do with the NRA.

What's so hard about stating your opinion without needless shit-stirring?



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Response to RZM (Reply #40)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 12:48 PM

43. Nope

 

> You know full well the headline doesn't pass statistical muster

Except for the fact it isn't a statement of statistics. It's a value statement. Thus, you're wrong. My point(s) stand.

Don't worry, gun-apologists are always wrong. Their religion (Worship of The Precious) blinds them.

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 12:30 PM

39. Hell, Sir, It is More Dangerous To Be a Truck Driver Than A Police Officer....

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 12:33 PM

41. Patently false.

You do realize there are many times more cops than there are preschoolers, right?

According to Census Bureau stats, there are approximately 21 million kids 4 years old and under in the US. There are a little under one million police officers. I trust you can do the math from here...

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Response to Lizzie Poppet (Reply #41)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 01:43 PM

50. It is only 10 times more dangerous to be a cop than a preschooler.

That where you're going?

That number OK with you?

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Response to Robb (Reply #50)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:31 PM

61. I'd certainly like to see a wider gap, obviously.

I was simply taking exception to the demonstrably false claim in the OP headline.

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:53 PM

66. This would be a great post if your science wasn't bunk. Do better next time.

 

Understand the difference between rates & raw numbers.

I agree with the premise though, no more dead kids at any cost.

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 03:14 PM

68. no it's not, since there are way more preschoolers than cops.

 

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 06:07 PM

75. Math is hard!

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Response to Logical (Reply #75)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 07:03 PM

77. I think I see what you did there

 

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 07:38 PM

80. Statistics failure... there are probably about 10x more preschoolers than cops.

 

the important figure to look at would be the murder/death *RATES*. The populations would need normalized and the police deaths extrapolated to do a direct numerical incident comparison.

I hope someone smarter than this is working on the gun control legislation or were're liable to end up with "Gun Control" that mandates we buy guns along with our mandated health insurance.

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 09:07 PM

82. How many cops are there vs. how many preschoolers are there in this country? nt

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