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Tue Dec 18, 2012, 01:10 AM

Repeal the 2nd Amendment petition at whitehouse.gov. No more special rights for guns. Enough!

http://wh.gov/Rord

Are Americans as civilized as Aussies? Do we love our children as much as the British do?

Do we?

Are we able to rise up and demand effective action to stop the carnage of gun massacres? Will we?

The first step is to repeal the second amendment. Make it no more of a constitutional right to own a gun than to own a car.

It's a long process to amend the constitution, requiring passage by Congress and then ratification by 3/4th of the states, so let's start now. Once we remove this anachronistic, poorly written, flawed 'right' from the constitution, we can hope to stop the regular gun massacres we now must live with as a routine occurrence.

Then, we can follow the lead of countries like Switzerland, UK, and Australia and require guns to be stored in extremely secure lockers at gun ranges and hunting clubs and armories. Make licenses to keep guns at home be based on need, with stringent requirements and frequent reviews. Require liability insurance for gun owners, as we require it for car owners.

Law abiding gun owners in these civilized countries lined up to turn in their guns, as required by the laws democratically passed by their people. If current gun owners are actually law abiding citizens, they will do the same, if these laws pass one day. Are they?

I am trying to be optimistic and hopeful that Americans can and will take real and meaningful action, because we do indeed love our children as much as the Brits and the Aussies.

Please help start a real, serious conversation about ending the carnage of gun massacres in America. Sign the petition at

http://wh.gov/Rord

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Reply Repeal the 2nd Amendment petition at whitehouse.gov. No more special rights for guns. Enough! (Original post)
Dems to Win Dec 2012 OP
kelly1mm Dec 2012 #1
Recursion Dec 2012 #2
Dems to Win Dec 2012 #3
Recursion Dec 2012 #4
hack89 Dec 2012 #52
Dems to Win Dec 2012 #63
hack89 Dec 2012 #65
Quisutdeus Jan 2013 #96
Quisutdeus Jan 2013 #97
bossy22 Dec 2012 #5
Dems to Win Dec 2012 #9
bossy22 Dec 2012 #10
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bossy22 Dec 2012 #14
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bossy22 Dec 2012 #17
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Voice for Peace Dec 2012 #56
thebard77 Dec 2012 #55
Voice for Peace Dec 2012 #54
WastedSaint Dec 2012 #6
Hugabear Dec 2012 #7
rl6214 Dec 2012 #8
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friendly_iconoclast Dec 2012 #13
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bossy22 Dec 2012 #19
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NickB79 Dec 2012 #51
Dems to Win Dec 2012 #64
forthemiddle Dec 2012 #47
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GreenStormCloud Dec 2012 #69
Dems to Win Dec 2012 #73
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David__77 Dec 2012 #18
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cali Dec 2012 #23
Dems to Win Dec 2012 #31
Bad_Ronald Dec 2012 #24
cali Dec 2012 #25
Bad_Ronald Dec 2012 #26
cali Dec 2012 #27
Bad_Ronald Dec 2012 #29
NickB79 Dec 2012 #44
Abq_Sarah Dec 2012 #28
Quisutdeus Dec 2012 #30
Dems to Win Dec 2012 #32
Bacchus4.0 Dec 2012 #33
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X_Digger Dec 2012 #35
Dems to Win Dec 2012 #37
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hughee99 Dec 2012 #36
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NickB79 Dec 2012 #42
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thebard77 Dec 2012 #53
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Ter Dec 2012 #66
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Ter Dec 2012 #77
Skip Intro Dec 2012 #80
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Dems to Win Dec 2012 #87
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Quisutdeus Dec 2012 #91
Quisutdeus Dec 2012 #92
Quisutdeus Dec 2012 #94
SoutherDem Sep 2013 #98

Response to Dems to Win (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 01:15 AM

1. Need 3/4 of the states. That means 13 states can block it. Need 38 to pass. That is AFTER

getting it through congress. Yep, you better start now, that is going to be a LONG haul.

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Response to Dems to Win (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 01:28 AM

2. Its legal importance has been essentially nil

There have only been a handful of supreme court decisions referring to it, and all of them have found that Congress and the states have very broad powers in deciding who can and can't have what kind of firearm (basically anything but an outright ban on ownership, with much lower standards of scrutiny than for example restraints on speech).

It might be a cultural coup of sourts, but it wouldn't directly have much effect.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #2)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 01:43 AM

3. States / towns ought to have the right to outright ban ownership of handguns if they choose.

We do need to repeal the 2nd amendment if we want to be a modern civilized country.

No more special rights for guns!!

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Response to Dems to Win (Reply #3)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 01:48 AM

4. DC did that for 30 years

Didn't exactly work.

But, yes, that's about the only effect of the 2nd Amendment: other cities can't emulate DC's gun laws.

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Response to Dems to Win (Reply #3)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 03:23 PM

52. Can states/towns have the right to ban abortion and gay marriage if they choose?

or should every American have the same Constitutional rights?

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Response to hack89 (Reply #52)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 04:52 PM

63. I reject the idea that owning a gun should be a constitutional right.

The founders were wrong about this, the same way they were wrong about calling our president 3/5ths of a person.

That's why I want to repeal the 2nd amendment. We the people CAN decide that owning a gun is NOT a constitutional right, and we should do exactly that.

I don't want to repeal any civil rights of anyone. They are covered in different amendments.

Clear?

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Response to Dems to Win (Reply #63)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 05:01 PM

65. So get back to us when it has been repealed. nt

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Response to Dems to Win (Reply #63)

Mon Jan 7, 2013, 01:11 PM

97. Right 2 bear arms reserves against government arming itself against citizenry, as today.

The right to bear arms was/is a precaution against government using weapons against the citizenry to enforce government policy in contradiction of the founding principles of The Constitution.

There is a plague of such weaponised/militarised enforcement of un-Constitutional "Government" policy sweeping across USA (and indeed elsewhere in the world under the momentum of US Foreign Policy), routinely directed against peaceful and UNARMED folk doing nothing more threatening than growing rare orchids or making goats milk cheese.

Don't believe it? Have a read of this article:

"Government Violence: The Missing Link in the Gun Control Debate".
http://www.informationliberation.com/?id=42203

When the US government is so violently prosecuting its unlawful policies both domestically and abroad, why on earth would anyone imagine that peace can be found without first disarming the biggest culprit - i.e. the overly weaponised and violent US government.

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Response to Dems to Win (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 01:48 AM

5. shouldn't we focus our efforts on things that are actually reasonably possible at this moment?

These ideas are no help to the debate. You might as well petition the government for them to develop "pre-crime" technology.

on edit: I'm finding a component in the majority of posts with gun control proposals- that component is the belief of ultimate moral authority. Put it simple, you do not have it, the NRA doesn't have, President Obama doesnt have it. Realize what you have and work with it. You're going to have to compromise and that's a fact.

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Response to bossy22 (Reply #5)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:41 AM

9. You can accept continued recurring gun massacres, I will work for effective action

None of the proposals under consideration will make a dent in the death toll.

No more fig leaves.

No more special rights for guns! Enough!

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Response to Dems to Win (Reply #9)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:45 AM

10. and neither will the OP's proposal

because it has no chance in hell of actually passing- nor even being proposed by any member of congress.

I want proposals that are well-thoughtout and actually feasable. because if it doesnt pass congress, IT WON'T DO A DARN THING.

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Response to bossy22 (Reply #10)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 03:02 AM

12. If we're afraid to ask for the real solution, we damn sure won't get it. No more fig leaves

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Response to Dems to Win (Reply #12)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 03:09 AM

14. and if you seem way out of mainstream

no one will listen to you anymore.

You may not realize it, but your view of a solution is held by a small minority of registered voters in this country.

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Response to bossy22 (Reply #14)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 03:18 AM

16. It was once a novel idea that women should have the right to vote.

I'm working for an end to the carnage. Nothing less is acceptable.

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Response to Dems to Win (Reply #16)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 03:24 AM

17. Well I'm working for a reduction in the carnage

that would happen in my lifetime

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Response to bossy22 (Reply #17)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 03:37 AM

20. Good luck to us both.

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Response to bossy22 (Reply #14)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 03:28 PM

56. It's VERY possible that it can get into the mainstream.

It's not as extreme a measure as it seems on the surface.
The more people who become informed, the better the
chances.
So.. I signed. Can't hurt. Easy to do.
And I'll invite others to think about this possibility.

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Response to bossy22 (Reply #10)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 03:26 PM

55. You're right

 

People are living in a dream world if they think any attempts to repeal the 2nd amendment will bare any fruit. This is never going to happen.

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Response to bossy22 (Reply #5)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 03:25 PM

54. yes but it can't hurt to sign a petition, doesn't take much time or effort.

I think it's a good idea.. Doable? I have no idea, but signed.

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Response to Dems to Win (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:14 AM

6. Fuck it, signed. And Fuck THE NRA!!

 

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Response to Dems to Win (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:25 AM

7. At one time, the idea of eliminating slavery would have seemed just as impossible

After all, slavery was written into the Constitution, and with half of the country being slave-owning states, it seemed that it might never go away.

Hopefully it won't take a war to eliminate the 2nd Amendment.

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Response to Dems to Win (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:27 AM

8. Someone doesn't know what it takes to repeal an amendment

 

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Response to rl6214 (Reply #8)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:50 AM

11. if you follow the link, it asks the president to petition congress and the states to repeal the 2nd

I'm aware it takes 2/3 vote in both houses of Congress.

I call on President Obama to deliver a resounding speech, asking both houses to vote to repeal the deadly 2nd amendment NOW and send it for ratification to the states, for approval post haste.

Nothing less is a fitting response to the ongoing carnage.


The petition at whitehouse.gov is a way to start a serious conversation about effective action to end the gun slaughters.

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Response to Dems to Win (Reply #11)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 03:07 AM

13. It also takes 3/4 of the states to ratify it. That will not happen.

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Response to friendly_iconoclast (Reply #13)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 03:12 AM

15. Are there not parents and grandparents in all 50 states? Do they not love their children?

Do Americans truly not love their children as much as in Australia? Is that what you believe?

We're willing to accept, forever, regular gun massacres?

I say it's time to end this nightmare. Let's start now.

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Response to Dems to Win (Reply #15)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 03:30 AM

19. For what you talk about would require such a seismic change

that not even 9/11 produced

You want to know a hard truth: that there a great many people who truly believe that this isn't "that much" related to gun accessability. It's true, look at the polls. And why is that? Because most people don't really think about it that much- they have their pre-concieved notions and they aren't going to put in the effort to rethink them. That's the sad fact of reality. How many people do you think still have 9/11 in the front of their minds throughout the day? Probably not many; sadly that is the course this horrible tragedy will take in peoples minds.

So work for change you can actually attain. It's good to dream but you must also wake up.

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Response to bossy22 (Reply #19)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 03:42 AM

21. 9/11 caused us to spend $2 trillion and many precious lives on two pointless wars

Seismic change on guns can happen if we make it happen.

I prefer to try for the real solution rather than resigning myself to continued gun massacres for all time.

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Response to Dems to Win (Reply #21)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 03:22 PM

51. It also shows what happens when we respond with emotion

Instead of calm, logical thought. We swing blindly at those who aren't our enemies and waste precious time and resources fighting pointless battles.

Look to the Patriot Act for starters.

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Response to NickB79 (Reply #51)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 05:01 PM

64. Calm logical thought REQUIRES that we get rid of the guns to end the gun slaughter

All statistics and scientific studies prove it.

Going along to get along will only get us continuing endless gun massacres.

The NRA and their ilk ARE the enemy. They love making money from weapons more than they love their own children. It's time to fight them with as much ferocity as they fight to continue the carnage for their own profits.

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Response to Dems to Win (Reply #15)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 03:16 PM

47. I am a parent in one of the 50 States

And I love my child with every single cell of my being. But having said that, there is no way in HELL I would sign up for the repeal.

I find it extremely juvenile that over the past few days, people here are pulling at heart strings trying to make their point. Yes I know 20 children were killed with a gun. Yes, my heart bleeds for them. I also know that the worst laws are made out of fear.

"It's for the children". BS!

I read the same BS on right wing forums after 9/11. They blamed people that even dared to criticize the War on Terror as unpatriotic. Now here I am reading the same crap. "If you aren't for the total ban of guns, you want more children dead".

GROW UP PEOPLE.

And yes, I do have a low post count. Go ahead and call me a troll, or whatever. I have been here quite a while, I just usually agree with what is written, and I am not a "me too" poster, so I have an abnormally low count. I usually let others say what I feel, because they can say it much better than I can. But in this case I had to speak up.

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Response to forthemiddle (Reply #47)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 04:45 PM

62. All the statistics and scientific studies tell us that gun availability equals gun deaths.

I'm grown up enough that I'm willing to see reality and act upon it.

I'm grown up enough that I'm willing to look at the examples of what has worked in other countries and want that positive change for my own country.



No more special rights for guns!!! Enough!

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Response to Dems to Win (Reply #62)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 06:28 PM

69. Gun deaths have been dropping for years...

...as the number of guns in America has skyrocketed.

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #69)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 09:36 PM

73. I'm sure that is of great comfort to the Sandy Hook parents.

Only 8775 gun murders last year! USA! USA!

I aspire to a number of gun murders each year similar to the UK, 58.

I want REAL change. The only way we can stop the carnage is to take the critical first step of repealing the 2nd amendment.

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #69)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 10:11 PM

74. Guns have skyrocketed, but gun availability has not, really.

More homes have 50 and 100 and 1000 weapons, as the gun nuts stock up rabidly, but the number of gun owning homes has not changed dramatically. Lanza only needed his mom to buy 3 guns to have all he needed to slaughter dozens of people, but she kept on buying. The rest of her purchases didn't really change the availability of guns to the killer.

'Declining' gun deaths have not declined to anywhere near what a civilized society would tolerate. And they won't as long as arsenals are in private homes.

Repeal the 2nd Amendment now.

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Response to Dems to Win (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 03:29 AM

18. So much for the Bill of Rights...

Now I'm not saying that the Bill of Rights is somehow the pinnacle of humanity, but I do think that opposing it as an integral entity will definitely be unpopular, and will definitely lead to terrible things.

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Response to David__77 (Reply #18)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 03:48 AM

22. If it doesn't work, it is our obligation and duty to change it.

The Founders expected us to adapt the Constitution to make it work for us through time. They wrote in the amendment process.

I refuse to believe they would prefer we accept continued unending gun massacres in the streets and schools.

No more special rights for guns!! Enough!

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Response to Dems to Win (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 04:50 AM

23. Yes, vain grandstanding efforts are so effective.

Sorry, I don't engage in them.

I prefer to grapple with reality like banning clips with a shitload of bullets and reinstating the assault weapon ban.

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Response to cali (Reply #23)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 11:27 AM

31. Weak half measures have been tried, and the gun slaughter continued unabated

Assault Weapons Ban: 1994 - 2004

Columbine High School gun massacre: 1999

I am calling for REAL action to STOP the gun slaughter



No more special rights for guns! Enough!!

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Response to Dems to Win (Original post)


Response to Bad_Ronald (Reply #24)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 05:48 AM

25. you do grasp that not supporting this pointless gesture is not

the same as supporting the NRA, right?

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Response to cali (Reply #25)


Response to Bad_Ronald (Reply #26)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 06:17 AM

27. Nope. Not an NRA member, hon. Or an apologist or a syncophant

The comparison to the civil rights movement is fatuous. It's not an uphill climb. It's one that can't reasonable be achieved. It's just not going to be proposed by a single person in Congress, nor will the alternative method of convention with 2/3 of the states happen.

Seriously, why not focus efforts on the possible? A starting point can and should be reinstating the assault weapons ban and banning mega clips.

I understand the urge to get rid of the 2nd Amendment, and if that's what you choose to waste your oh so evident brainpower on, go for it, sweetie. I'm sure you'll be just such an effective little advocate as you run around insanely screeching.

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Response to cali (Reply #27)


Response to Bad_Ronald (Reply #29)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:59 PM

44. The kicker is, the ban didn't ban anything

It just went after cosmetic features. The manufacturers just removed the "evil-looking" features like bayonet lugs and folding stocks, and sold them as "target rifles" or "varmint rifles" instead. And they sold MILLIONS of them in the 1990's AFTER the ban went into effect because of the publicity the AWB gave them.

The NRA didn't have to lift a finger; the manufacturers did it themselves.

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Response to Dems to Win (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 06:18 AM

28. Traditionally, the bill of rights

Is not considered to be a government grant of specific rights. It would be very difficult to repeal any right that is seen as protected by government, not granted by government. People will accept some limitations on inherent rights but will draw the line at government attempts to remove a right it never had the power to grant in the first place.

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Response to Dems to Win (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 09:21 AM

30. Switzerland: virtually no gun crime: higher rate of gun ownership than US!

As can be seen from the Swiss example, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland , a higher rate of gun ownership amongst the people is not the issue. The solution utilised by the Swiss militia lies in the requirement of education in responsibility of ownership of such weapons.

The worst of these gun-massacres may have been prevented simply by the weapons being securely kept out of the reach of the perpetrators such as Danza. Just how did a young man with an alleged history of disturbance in his personal life, come to be in possession of such a weapon - answer: apparently from his mother, the gun's owner. This indicates the real cause is a serious failure in the responsibility of the gun's owner to keep their weapons secure from the possession of those other than owner, or those untrained in the associated responsibilities.

Targeting the constitutional right to bear arms doesn't clear-up the problem, and is a red-herring, as can be seen from recent and continuing history of terrible gun-massacres in places where gun control is historically extremely tight, such as the UK, Australia, et al.

The problem isn't the right to bear arms (by which means the people reserve to be sufficiently armed to protect themselves against the unlawful USE OF DEADLY FORCE by any authority, inc. "government"). The only time to get rid of guns, is if everyone gets rid of guns, including the so-called "authorities", who's historical and recent catalogue of deadly error and abuses of power are not to be ignored, much less be used as grounds for trusting the authorities to carry weapons, but not the people.

The Swiss seem to have it got it right - high rates of personal gun ownership with proper training in the associated responsibilities = neglible gun crime.

Indeed, it may be argued that if the right to carry arms were more openly and keenly supported, with appropriate training in responsible ownership and use (as in the Swiss example), it is conceivable to imagine a similar situation where, instead of as this aweful massacre, Danza was stopped in his tracks before he could fire a single shot, stopped by a bullet from the gun of a teacher, a gun the teacher was accustomed to legitimately carrying in her handbag, because responsible gun-ownership was promoted and encouraged (as in the Swiss example).

But lets suppose the right to bear arms has been removed from law-abiding, right-minded folk who believe in the vision and principles enshrined by the founding fathers in the specific terms of The Constitution for the People. Are we then going to remove the right to travel by car, because those who are driven to commit these atrocities, must seek an alternative method and so resort to hijacking cars/buses/trucks and driving them into groups of children as they pour out of school at the end of the day?

Clearly, preventing the access to guns isn't going to prevent murderous individuals from doing what murderous individuals do.

If knee-jerk, baseless reactions is your thing, you might find it more profitable to investigate if there's any truth to allegations of a connection between such massacres, and high-ranking paedophile groups who are desparate to cover their tracks, as has been alleged in the Dunblane massacre (in the UK, where most people only get to see a gun when they're watching television, or at the picturehouse).

Or, perhaps it is simply more rational to realise, that guns are not the problem, but rather, it is the lack training in responsible ownership - Danza should not have been able to have access to his mother's arsenal.

Removing peoples' right to bear arms is no more a solution than removing peoples' right to use a car after someone has murderously driven through a crowd of kinder-garten attendees standing at the roadside.

I can't help but wonder - "would the children still be alive today, if his mother had kept the guns in a secure-locker for which only she knew the combination? Or, if at least one those poor teachers had been more accustomed to carrying a weapon because society at large, as in the Swiss example, encouraged and promoted RESPONSIBLE gun ownership?

But mostly, I wonder if weapons would even have been around in a world where society at large adopted values which prizes and expounds the principles of social responsibility, inclusiveness, compassion, love, consideration, understanding, and welcome, instead of encouraging the politics of the "Self", "acquisitiveness", "consumerism", and "greed". Would weapons be necessary in a world where where those whose appearance or manner may not immediately place them at the front of the pack in the "popularity-stakes" are not progressively excluded or victimised. Or, if every child were guided in the principles of compassion sufficiently to really understand what it means to say "to care for another, is to care for oneself, and to harm oneself is to harm another".

History has proved that gun control only serves as a weapon in the hands of those who demand gun control, but who themselves do not give up their own guns = totalitarian government. And in these days of burgeoning Orwellian authoritarianism in the name of "The War Against Terror", with the systematic dismantling of civil liberties and wide-spread reduction in the checks and limitations upon government authority at a rate and level not seen in the West since Hitler's Germany, I'd be very concerned to give up the right to defend myself against any deranged person who might still be able to put a gun to my head if I don't like that they want to inject my child with toxin-filled vaccinations, or with liver-destroying cancer drugs.

After all, Danza may himself have been one such child whose brain/body-chemistry was irrevocably altered by an adverse reaction to toxins in vaccinations administered as a child. Such cases are well documented, but the efforts of families to bring this into the public arena have been violently resisted by government, so there is as yet no official research that can state conclusively that such toxin-induced chemical imbalances have no part to play in the psychological make-up of such deranged characters as Danza.

Don't own a gun if you don't want to. I don't own one. But until I am able to live in a world where I don't need to protect myself or my loved ones from attack by deranged individuals, then I'll be happier knowing that I may have access to any means which will allow me, or my children's guardian at the time, to stop any deranged individual in her/his tracks, but BEFORE the damage is done.

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Response to Quisutdeus (Reply #30)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 11:43 AM

32. No, the answer is NOT more guns. Such talk is pure insanity. More bullets flying is not acceptable

I refuse to accept that the only place American children can be safe from gun violence is within the walls of armed fortresses. I refuse to advocate firing teachers and hiring armed guards.

No, school teachers in Switzerland are NOT armed. You are spouting misinformation.

The Swiss aren't willing to accept routine gun massacres in their society, so they have CHANGED how they handle guns -- they are kept in armories, not in people's homes. They have decided they don't want disturbed teenagers to be able to get their parents' guns out of a closet (or gun safe, which any determined teenager will figure out their parents' code just like they figure out the code on the parental block of the TV) and go to the local elementary school to massacre first graders.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/12/14/mythbusting-israel-and-switzerland-are-not-gun-toting-utopias/

Do we love our children as much as the Swiss do? Can we recognize that guns in homes means inevitable recurrent gun massacres and say that we want to CHANGE?



No more special rights for guns!! Enough!

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Response to Dems to Win (Reply #32)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 11:54 AM

33. The Swiss can keep their guns at home and an armed guard at the Sandy Brook

certainly could have made a difference. Look at the alternative.

An off-duty cop just shot a gunman at a movie theatre that potentially saved lives.

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Response to Bacchus4.0 (Reply #33)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 12:14 PM

34. I am not willing to fire a teacher and hire an armed guard at every school in the country just so

gun lovers can keep arsenals at their private homes.

I want this country I love to reach for the sane, rational solutions to recurring gun massacres. Other countries have done it, why can't we?

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Response to Dems to Win (Reply #34)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 03:12 PM

78. countries with tight gun control still suffer gun massacres - banning guns didn't save their kids!!

The sane solution is to direct focus upon the real problem, and not upon red-herrings designed to strip people of their rights to defend themselves against armed oppression/aggression.



The real problem is not the prevalence of guns - if you think it is, just ask the families of the children slaughtered in Dunblane, a place where gun control is one of the strictest in the world.

In a society ("USA") which breeds more than its fair share of murderous killers, the real solution should be how to address that problem - perhaps an omni-lateral programme of a positively led return to values which are centred upon local community cohesiveness, social-inclusiveness, civic responsibility, and a sense of pride in one's civic duty, and a whole-sale departure from the "business-as-usual" politics of greed, materialism, kickbacks, selfishness, the bottomline, and the latest "me-Phone".

Simply blaming the rightful, safe and lawful use of guns by law-abiding, sane people isn't going to stop society in USA from cultivating it's annual crop of murderous killers, nor will it stop those killers from killing (again, I remind you to ask the Dunblane victims whether the strict gun controls in Britain, did anything to help them).

Opportune, reflex murderers like the Danzas of this world can be stopped, so long as weapons are securely stored with access only by the proper owners, who are responsible (as in the Swiss example, see above link) for the secure storage of fire-arms to prevent access by someone who is not the owner (as in Danza's case).

And equally importantly, there's the problem of reducing the astronomically high percentage of murderous killers "Born in the USA" - perhaps a start can be made by addressing the de-humanising effects upon those not naturally equipped to prosper in a society where social-acceptance is measured by the individual's talent for competing in the popularity stakes, or by whether they possess a geometrically balanced facial bone-structure, etc..?

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Response to Quisutdeus (Reply #78)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 03:43 PM

84. You are using a massacre that led to tough

Guns as an example? Now that is hilarious.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #84)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 02:22 PM

89. Gun control historical in UK; cops don't carry. Didn't stop Dunblane

Last edited Fri Dec 28, 2012, 08:19 AM - Edit history (1)

No legislation in UK since Dunblane has made it harder for ordinary folk to get a gun - gun-ownership was already practically impossible without proof of actual and specific need, and with no consitutional right. Still, this didn't prevent the criminal from massacring the defenseless children in Dunblane.

Criminals do not obey gun-laws.

Ron Paul: "Government Security Is Just Another Kind of Violence"
http://www.informationliberation.com/?id=42120

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Response to Quisutdeus (Reply #89)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 02:25 PM

90. And now you use Ron Paul

Our favorite libertarian...

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #90)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 08:28 AM

93. I "quote" Ron Paul, not use him. Common sense respects no master.

Those that manage and control the bi-partisan "electoral" system do a far better job of using Ron Paul, than I ever could.

I might quote you too, if what you say appeals to my sense of right. You are cordially invited to reciprocate, should you happen to find yourself so moved.

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Response to Dems to Win (Reply #32)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 03:31 PM

82. Swiss open-carry,keep guns/ammo home: gun-crime negligible

Time "magazine" says "(Swiss have high rates of gun ownership, open-carry, and have almost negligible gun-crime)...

read it...

http://world.time.com/2012/12/20/the-swiss-difference-a-gun-culture-that-works/

even Hitler didn't invade Switzerland, because every man was required to possess a rifle, and be trained in its use.



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Response to Quisutdeus (Reply #30)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:30 PM

39. You know why?

They have a well regulated militia...universal conscription

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #39)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 03:22 PM

79. 'Cos the Swiss are well-balanced; they also open-carry their guns

http://world.time.com/2012/12/20/the-swiss-difference-a-gun-culture-that-works/

The Swiss have a strong sense of communal and national identity, strong social infra-stucture, excellent education system and do not openly exploit the weaker among them for their own advantage and amusement.

They also open-carry their weapons, which they are also allowed to keep at home, but fully-automatics are outlawed (that would be silly now, wouldn't it?)

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Response to Quisutdeus (Reply #79)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 03:28 PM

81. And a strong safety net

And health insurance, like universal.

And not such a strong problem with societal violence structural crisis.

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Response to Dems to Win (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 12:18 PM

35. Repealing the second amendment would not remove the right.

It would then become a federally protected unenumerated right under the ninth amendment, and *still* protected by various state constitutions *explicitly*.

Rights aren't granted by the constitution. They pre-date the constitution. ("that to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men" ring a bell?)

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Response to X_Digger (Reply #35)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:26 PM

37. Let's have a court battle. Better than accept unending gun massacres, as the gun lovers demand

Let's repeal ALL the special rights for guns. State by state.

I believe that parents love their children in all our 50 states. Let's give those children a better chance of surviving to adulthood in all 50 states.

I refuse to throw up my hands and accept continuing neverending gun massacres.


No more special rights for guns!! Enough!

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Response to Dems to Win (Reply #37)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:30 PM

40. Quixotic measures rarely lead to overturned windmills.

But I won't stand in front of your steed.

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Response to X_Digger (Reply #40)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:48 PM

41. I'm glad Susan B. Anthony didn't listen to people like you.

Votes for women was once a quixotic quest.

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Response to Dems to Win (Reply #41)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:54 PM

43. I'm sorry, did SBA petition to remove the right to vote from men?

Feel free to find precedent for negating a right that has been explicitly protected in the bill of rights.

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Response to X_Digger (Reply #43)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 03:17 PM

48. Perhaps an amendment to guarantee first graders the right to keep their brains in their skulls

without interference from bullets.

It's a new right that we desperately need.

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Response to Dems to Win (Reply #48)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 03:49 PM

58. Such a right already exists, and is protected by criminal penalty for abridging it. n/t

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Response to X_Digger (Reply #58)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 04:12 PM

59. The new 2nd Amendment: All Citizens have the right to airspace free of flying bullets

Also, it's time to give that right to keep one's brains in one's skull some teeth and function. Criminal penalties are meaningless when the cowardly gun nut ends his rampage in suicide, as they often do. Suggestions welcome.

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Response to Dems to Win (Reply #37)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 10:26 AM

95. which gun-lovers "demand...unending gun massacres" (US Gov aside)?

...unless you're making reference to US government and its' on-going and historic Modus Operandi in its approach to foreign policy (illegal and unlawful acts of war, genocide, and crimes against humanity - up to 1+million dead civilian Iraqis, of which one third estimated to be less than 13 years old (doesn't anyone remember the Vietnam War anymore))...

... I'm not really sure of the source of your statement. It seems so extreme as to be of little more than hysterical hype, promoted on the back of a dreadful tragedy which no gun-lover I know could ever have committed, much less supported. The killer in the Newtown tragedy didn't even own a gun, so can't be one of the gun-lovers you're argument is targetting.

Why must you equate this horrific tragedy with the right to be armed against tyranny/tyrannical use-of-deadly-force from any source, whether that source is the government or the matricidal fruit-cake who stole his mother's gun, or the neighbourhood dictator-in-waiting who believes only she has the right to tell her armed representatives to force others to live or die in a manner that suits only her.

If you feel it is insane to want a own/carry a gun, then why do you exercise that right so blindly in allowing your appointed representatives to carry a gun on your behalf - much less, wage illegal wars of aggression indiscriminately targeting thousands of innocent Iraqi and Afghani children no older than the poor souls lost in Newtown.

Methinks "something is rotten in the state of Denmark".

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Response to Dems to Win (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 12:27 PM

36. "special rights" = constitutional rights I don't think other people should have? n/t

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Response to hughee99 (Reply #36)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:29 PM

38. 'special rights' = misguided, asinine amendment that prioritizes gun lovers rights to feel powerful

over first graders rights to survive the school day.


No more special rights for guns!! Enough!

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Response to Dems to Win (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:53 PM

42. I'm going to propose Capt. Kirk just beam away all the guns

And dump them into the sun from the cargo bay of the Enterprise.

And then give us all two-headed alien ponies and bags of gummy bears.

Because that's about as likely to happen in our lifetimes as a repeal of the 2nd Amendment.

But one can dream.

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Response to NickB79 (Reply #42)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 03:07 PM

45. It took 70 years to achieve votes for women. Yet they didn't give up before even starting to try

You can sit back and accept never ending gun massacres. I choose to demand we start acting like children are more important than guns.


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Response to Dems to Win (Reply #45)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 03:10 PM

46. I propose we don't WAIT 70+ years for a repeal of the 2nd Amendment

Like I said, it won't be going away in our lifetimes. As you yourself pointed out, it took OVER a lifetime for women to get the right to vote, and that was by ADDING to the Constitution, not removing something from it. So instead, let's work on solutions that we can actually put into effect NOW or at least in the next few years.

I have a daughter who will be 3 this spring. I'd rather we do something to protect her now, than wait until her grandchildren are entering school and I'm long-dead in the ground.

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Response to NickB79 (Reply #46)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 03:35 PM

57. Quick is better than effective?

The weak measures proposed will almost certainly do nothing to stop the carnage.

During the prior assault weapons ban, 1994 - 2004, gun massacres continued unabated.

As long as there are hundreds of millions of guns and trillions of rounds of ammunition in American homes, there will be periodic 'Oops! Billy figured out the combo to the gun safe and slaughtered a room full of first graders. Just an isolated incident. Who could have predicted?'

If we want real solutions to the carnage, we have to be brave enough to talk about those real solutions. I'm trying to be as courageous as a kindergarten teacher.

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Response to Dems to Win (Reply #57)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 04:42 PM

61. By treating the rest of us Americans as kindergarten students?

Yep, that's courageous, alright.

Here in America, we do not punish the innocent because of the sins of the guilty. Just because Lanza escaped justice doesn't mean you get to take it out on everyone else.

Okay?

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Response to derby378 (Reply #61)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 07:19 PM

70. If you need an arsenal of death in your home to feel like a man instead of a kindergartner,

Last edited Tue Dec 18, 2012, 08:36 PM - Edit history (1)

you have real problems and need appropriate medical help.

Japanese and Australian and British men and women are adults leading happy, productive, fulfilling lives, without guns in their homes.

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Response to Dems to Win (Reply #70)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 09:03 PM

71. You're the one trying to boss everyone else around, not I

Maybe you've got some control issues that need help. Sounds like you're doing a lot of projecting.

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Response to derby378 (Reply #71)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 09:31 PM

72. I am asserting that the Sandy Hook students right to attend school without being gunned down is

far more important than American's right to maintain arsenals in their homes. Far more important.

Important enough to amend the Constitution.

Important enough to put on body armor and learn to operate an AK-47 and join a real citizens militia to 'pry the weapons out of their cold dead hands' if it comes to that, as the gun lovers love to threaten. After all, I've had 52 years on this planet. That's 46 years more than the students at Sandy Hook.

It's an abomination to me that Americans have a constitutional right to own machines of mass death. Plain and simple. Honest and straightforward.

Yes, I want to use the democratic process and constitutional amendment procedure to 'boss you around' and take your arsenal.

I want to live in a country with 58 gun murders a year, as the UK does, not a country with 8,775 gun murders every year. The only way to do that is to dramatically reduce the number of guns in American homes.

It's my right and duty as an American to call for my country to change in a meaningful way, stop the gun carnage, and join the ranks of civilized nations.

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Response to Dems to Win (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 03:17 PM

49. This Petition Can Show our Nation’s Resolve

Even if this petition does not lead to the repealing of the Second Amendment, enough signatures will show to the President and the Congress our nation’s resolve to finally control guns in this country.

If there are enough signatures it will force Congress to act. All this needs is groups like ours to “push it” and let people know that there is such a petition and I guarantee that a lot of people will sign it.

And our goal should include trying to repeal the Second Amendment!!!

Repealing the Second Amendment will not in itself change anything. This will not ban the possession of guns. It will not change any laws. It will have no effect on gun owners or any one else. No one should be afraid to do this.

BUT it will allow our representatives on the federal, state, and local level to work together to finally pass reasonable legislation. It is the Second Amendment that is now in the way.

And for those who say it is impossible so don’t even try… WE have passed major amendments before that some thought were impossible. And today, with the internet and social media it should be easier than in the past.

Like other great moments in our nation's history, this just might be the time to again correct our Constitution to “make this a more perfect union”.

Go to the link. Sign the petition. Spread the word to others.

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Response to jimmyzvoice (Reply #49)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 04:40 PM

60. Welcome aboard! You are exactly right

Signing this petition sends a message that we are serious today, plus is the reasonable longterm goal, too.

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Response to Dems to Win (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 03:20 PM

50. The petition for Texas to secede hit over 125,000

Let's see how this does in comparison.

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Response to NickB79 (Reply #50)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 10:42 PM

75. Sign on and help the cause!

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Response to Dems to Win (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 03:25 PM

53. It doesn't matter how many petitions are sent to the president

 

It is never going to happen. The amendment is hard enough to change without adding something so politicially divisive to the mix. I would love to see it happen but I chose to live in reality.

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Response to thebard77 (Reply #53)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 05:25 PM

67. If you'd love to see it happen, why not sign the petition? Only takes a minute.

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Response to Dems to Win (Reply #67)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:43 AM

76. I did

 

I just don't think anything will come from it. Anyway, gun laws wil not solve our problems. We have a culture problem and the government can't fix it. Our problems have been developing for a long time and it will take all of us to fix it. Laws will not stop anything. Murder has been outlawed for a long time...

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Response to Dems to Win (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 05:03 PM

66. You won't even get 3/4ths of DU members to support this

 

Let alone 3/4ths of the states and 2/3rds of both Houses.

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Response to Ter (Reply #66)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 05:58 PM

68. And yet, I continue to try. It's that important and worthwhile and just.

There are worse nicknames than Quixote.

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Response to Dems to Win (Reply #68)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:47 AM

77. There are a lot of Amendments that should be repealed

 

The 2nd isn't one that comes to mind.

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Response to Ter (Reply #66)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 03:27 PM

80. That is reassuring. Only 5 recs for this thread, too. nt

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Response to Skip Intro (Reply #80)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 03:35 PM

83. How does one rec a thread? I'd like to make it 6. (nt)

 

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Response to ehrenfeucht games (Reply #83)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 04:06 PM

85. Welcome to DU. to rec a thread, go back up to the original post that started this thread

At the bottom left of the post, there's a button labeled "DU Rec" Give it a click!

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Response to Dems to Win (Reply #85)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 04:15 PM

86. Thanks! (nt)

 

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Response to ehrenfeucht games (Reply #86)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 04:20 PM

87. Thank you for the rec! Please sign the petition at whitehouse.gov, too n/t

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Response to Dems to Win (Reply #87)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 04:39 PM

88. Signed. (nt)

 

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Response to Dems to Win (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 02:37 PM

91. I agree, provided we're not policed/governed at barrel-point

When the annual deluge of unlawful violence/killings at the hands of law-enforcement agents, whose unlawful acts are backed with the authority of the gun, attracts the same degree of censure as gun-toting criminals (who don't obey gun-laws, anyway), then we can set aside our rights to protect ourselves from armed aggressors whether operating inside or outside the law, in or out of uniform.

Ron Paul: Government Security Is Just Another Kind of Violence

http://www.informationliberation.com/?id=42120

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Response to Dems to Win (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2012, 02:40 PM

92. Ron Paul: Government Security Is Just Another Kind of Violence

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Response to Dems to Win (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 09:42 AM

94. Restricting guns for the law-abiding, arms only the criminal

It is not the right to bear arms that does the harm. No law-abiding gun-owner ever massacred anyone. It is only the criminal who commits gun-crime, not the millions of law-abiding people peacefully exercising their right to bear arms.

The real problem is the extent of the derangement of the pathological, criminal psyche incubated in a culture which has long-since abandoned the fight against the debasement of moral, social and community values. It is a problem which, if left uncorrected, will continue to inflict such atrocities as Newtown, Utoeya, Dunblane, long after the right to bear arms has been removed from those who will still need to protect themselves from such criminals pathologues. (Gun crime is radically on the rise in Britain, where it is almost impossible to get a gun licence: http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/willheaven/100014837/police-patrols-will-confront-gun-crime-not-labours-red-tape/).

Address the real problem. Don't be manipulated into expounding the NWO agenda of disarming the people by exploiting the terrible deaths of these innocents as a means to engineer a society where only criminals on both sides of the law may continue unchecked to use deadly force, but while leaving the innocent and peaceful completely unarmed and defenseless in a country where the Supreme Court has repeatedly ruled that government owes no duty of care to protect the people.

People who obey the law are already of no threat to society, whether or not they have a right to bear arms. Conversely, criminals do not obey gun-laws, and only laugh when law-abiding people vote to remove their own right to bear arms - see: Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot - all "faithful" card-carrying "socialists" (read: "hard-line democrats") http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/fame.html

"This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!" Adolph Hitler, 15 April 1935, in address to the Reichstag

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Response to Dems to Win (Original post)

Mon Sep 30, 2013, 03:38 PM

98. I know this is a old post but I couldn't resist replying

Go ahead, the Republicans and the NRA would love to see President Obama make your suggestion "Dems to Win". But, you would need to change your login name to "Dems always loose".
This would be the "proof" needed to show President Obama and the Democrats want to take away your guns.
Democrats wouldn't win "Dog Catcher" for the next century except in the most liberal areas.
People who otherwise supports gun control, i.e. AWB, mag limits, would start joining the NRA and voting Republican.

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