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Mon Dec 17, 2012, 10:58 PM

President Obama, Democrats need to disavow the rumored offer.

They know and have acknowledged that Social Security does not add to the deficit.

White House: Social Security should be off limits in "fiscal cliff" talks

It appears another issue of disagreement has surfaced in regard to the negotiations over the so-called "fiscal cliff".

White House spokesman Jay Carney said Monday that Social Security is one entitlement program that should be addressed on a "separate track."

"We should address the drivers of the deficit and Social Security currently is not a driver of the deficit," Carney told reporters today. The senior retirement program is solvent for another 21 years, at which time recipients could see a reduction in benefits.

It's a similar position taken by Sen. Richard Durbin, D-Ill, the number two Democrat in the Senate, on Sunday. "Social Security does not add one penny to our debt -- not a penny. It's a separate funded operation, and we can do things that I believe we should now, smaller things, played out over the long term that gives it solvency," Durbin said on ABC's "This Week."

- more -

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-34222_162-57554437-10391739/white-house-social-security-should-be-off-limits-in-fiscal-cliff-talks/

Why on earth would the President or any Democrat drag Social Security into the deficit negotiations?

84 replies, 5471 views

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Arrow 84 replies Author Time Post
Reply President Obama, Democrats need to disavow the rumored offer. (Original post)
ProSense Dec 2012 OP
teddy51 Dec 2012 #1
jberryhill Dec 2012 #2
teddy51 Dec 2012 #4
jberryhill Dec 2012 #8
spanone Dec 2012 #82
In Truth We Trust Dec 2012 #62
Scootaloo Dec 2012 #76
SidDithers Dec 2012 #79
Honeycombe8 Dec 2012 #3
teddy51 Dec 2012 #5
Cha Dec 2012 #18
HiPointDem Dec 2012 #24
Cha Dec 2012 #37
HiPointDem Dec 2012 #50
Cha Dec 2012 #52
AldoLeopold Dec 2012 #66
Cha Dec 2012 #67
sheshe2 Dec 2012 #56
Cha Dec 2012 #57
sheshe2 Dec 2012 #59
CakeGrrl Dec 2012 #70
Cha Dec 2012 #73
AldoLeopold Dec 2012 #69
freshwest Dec 2012 #72
forestpath Dec 2012 #9
BeyondGeography Dec 2012 #13
forestpath Dec 2012 #17
HiPointDem Dec 2012 #29
BeyondGeography Dec 2012 #31
HiPointDem Dec 2012 #34
BeyondGeography Dec 2012 #38
HiPointDem Dec 2012 #41
BeyondGeography Dec 2012 #53
HiPointDem Dec 2012 #55
sabrina 1 Dec 2012 #68
Doctor_J Dec 2012 #28
HiPointDem Dec 2012 #30
forestpath Dec 2012 #36
leftstreet Dec 2012 #61
Cha Dec 2012 #11
jberryhill Dec 2012 #19
Cha Dec 2012 #22
jberryhill Dec 2012 #26
Cha Dec 2012 #40
jberryhill Dec 2012 #81
Cha Dec 2012 #84
Cha Dec 2012 #27
jberryhill Dec 2012 #33
freshwest Dec 2012 #78
SidDithers Dec 2012 #83
BeyondGeography Dec 2012 #14
teddy51 Dec 2012 #15
BeyondGeography Dec 2012 #21
Cha Dec 2012 #20
HiPointDem Dec 2012 #6
Doctor_J Dec 2012 #35
blkmusclmachine Dec 2012 #7
DJ13 Dec 2012 #10
SidDithers Dec 2012 #12
treestar Dec 2012 #16
HiPointDem Dec 2012 #39
SidDithers Dec 2012 #42
HiPointDem Dec 2012 #44
SidDithers Dec 2012 #46
eridani Dec 2012 #23
Blaukraut Dec 2012 #25
Doctor_J Dec 2012 #32
former-republican Dec 2012 #48
ProSense Dec 2012 #49
Doctor_J Dec 2012 #77
In Truth We Trust Dec 2012 #65
jsr Dec 2012 #43
Jack Sprat Dec 2012 #45
John2 Dec 2012 #47
Hekate Dec 2012 #51
SidDithers Dec 2012 #54
ProSense Dec 2012 #58
LeftInTX Dec 2012 #71
Overseas Dec 2012 #60
on point Dec 2012 #63
Union Scribe Dec 2012 #64
aandegoons Dec 2012 #74
whistler162 Dec 2012 #75
ananda Dec 2012 #80

Response to ProSense (Original post)


Response to teddy51 (Reply #1)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 11:08 PM

2. "More" phony tears?

I see, and when were the last ones?

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #2)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 11:10 PM

4. Go away!

 

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Response to teddy51 (Reply #4)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 11:22 PM

8. Tell me about Obama's "phony tears"

And I'll go away.

Just which "phony tears" were you referring to?

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Response to teddy51 (Reply #4)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 03:23 PM

82. i think you will go away.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #2)


Response to jberryhill (Reply #2)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 05:58 AM

76. Don't mind him, he seems to be trying to commit suicide by Jury tonight

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #76)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 10:00 AM

79. Looks like he succeeded...nt

Sid

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Response to teddy51 (Reply #1)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 11:10 PM

3. WTF? nt

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #3)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 11:13 PM

5. So your ok with having Social Security cut because he can't stand up to those on the other

 

side? Sorry, I've had enough of the great bargaining power that we are seeing here. Fire him and let someone else bargain for him.

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Response to teddy51 (Reply #5)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 11:30 PM

18. You're okay with going with RUMORS about Social Security Cuts and

Smearing the President with "more phony tears".

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Response to Cha (Reply #18)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 11:34 PM

24. "rumors" being reported by the washington post, among other reputable sources. but they're

 

always 'rumors' to you.

this is the same offer obama made in round one, it's nothing new for him.

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #24)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 11:43 PM

37. As I said.. "Smearing the President with "more phony tears"

over Rumors. Even if it wasn't a Rumor it's a nasty Lying thing to say..

The post got deleted it was so Ugly.

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Response to Cha (Reply #37)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 11:53 PM

50. if you're concerned about rumors take it up with the wapo, etc. ezra klein, paul krugman also

 

spreading the rumors.

i.e. democrats spreading the rumors. bad democrats, bad!

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #50)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 11:57 PM

52. I'm concerned about someone posting "more phony tears".. The corporate

media gets a lot of things wrong.. I will wait see to what actually happens.

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Response to Cha (Reply #52)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 01:49 AM

66. Michelle

You know why I know that he doesn't shed "phony tears?" Michelle. I know women, and I know people, and I'm telling you that if he did that she would jerk a knot in his ass and you'd know it right off.

She's got that look about her. She doesn't put up with that kind of shit. I'll wager this whole First Lady thing sticks in her craw like a bone from an underdone chicken.

In fact I know she didn't want this from the beginning.

So no more of this phony tear shit. He's the real deal. This was as fucked up to him as it was to the rest of us. Even the republicans, even if they won't admit it 99% of the time.

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Response to AldoLeopold (Reply #66)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:00 AM

67. PBO's the real deal alright.. and I

know it from living through these last 5 year of observation.

But, yeah, Michelle is real, too.. and they don't do "phony'.. tears or otherwise. It was an especially cruel bogus insult.

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Response to Cha (Reply #18)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 12:04 AM

56. For me...I will withhold judgment til the fat lady sings!

I want to see the cards on the table...the full deck.
Not the rumors.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #56)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 12:09 AM

57. Yeah, I've learned after

4 years to trust the President.. in that I know he's doing the very best he can to watch our backs.

As Yogi said.. "It's not over till it's Over.. And, it's far from over now.

I think some writers like to portray the President as a weak negotiator when it's the opposite.

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Response to Cha (Reply #57)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 12:16 AM

59. Aaah...You are so right!

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Response to Cha (Reply #18)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:28 AM

70. Interesting about the "phony tears" smear

I saw a Fox news-watching 'winger say the same thing on another blog about POTUS' reaction to Sandy Hook.

Funny how some people devolve so quickly and easily into the flipside of the same RW coin in their rush to insult this President.

And very telling.

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Response to CakeGrrl (Reply #70)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 03:17 AM

73. Yeah, the rwingers would say that..

it's the stupidest thing possible. Assholes.

CakeGrrl

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Response to teddy51 (Reply #5)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:23 AM

69. Teddy whatsup man?

I've looked into your posts in the past and nothing would indicate this sort of hatred for the President.

What's with the hostility?

Because Social Security is on the table?

I suppose I would be pretty scared, too. But we're kind of screwed financially. Whether it be by overspending on the past for whatever reason, constant wars, foreign aid. Lots of things.

Things change, and we all get screwed sometimes.

So, what's with the hostility? I actually want to know what you're pissed about. There's nothing about this man, that I can see, that would indicate that he's simply under the gun in a really bad situation.

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Response to teddy51 (Reply #5)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:58 AM

72. 'Fire him'- a Clint Eastwood quote? 'Phony tears' - an Alex Jones quote?

Doesn't seem appropriate here.


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Response to teddy51 (Reply #1)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 11:25 PM

9. I feel the same way. How can the same man who can shed tears over children then

 

turn around and stick it to other vulnerable groups?

It's a legitimate question that deserves an answer, instead of an attack.

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Response to forestpath (Reply #9)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 11:28 PM

13. The shooting deaths of 6-year-olds vs. 5% monthly cuts for retirees

Yeah, I see your point.

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Response to BeyondGeography (Reply #13)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 11:30 PM

17. He is hurting vulnerable people who have little. No wonder you can't defend him.

 

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Response to BeyondGeography (Reply #13)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 11:38 PM

29. 5% cuts for *all* social programs that have colas, + regressive tax increases on the lower &

 

middle classes.

average SS benefit is currently about $1200.

yeah, what's not to like about reducing that further?

more people will die because of this than were killed in connecticut.

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #29)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 11:41 PM

31. Stop with this insane equivalency

Just stop.

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Response to BeyondGeography (Reply #31)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 11:42 PM

34. more people will die from benefit cuts than died in the shooting in connecticut.

 

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #34)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 11:43 PM

38. More six-year-olds will die?

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Response to BeyondGeography (Reply #38)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 11:47 PM

41. do you know how many people on social security support or contribute to support of children &

 

grandchildren? do you know anything about SS survivors' benefits?

not to mention that chained cpi will apply to *all* social programs with an inflation calculation, not just SS.

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #41)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 11:57 PM

53. Yes

And it's a shame Obama is taking a Bushmaster to all of them. Isn't it?

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Response to BeyondGeography (Reply #53)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 11:59 PM

55. if people don't have income, they die.

 

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Response to BeyondGeography (Reply #38)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:02 AM

68. Yes, one in six American children go to bed hungry every night.

Some of them are the children of disabled parents. Those children receive SS benefits, nearly 4 million of them actually. So yes, a cut like that to a family dependent on SS for food, clothing and every other need a six year old child has, would most likely be the tipping point for some of this 4 million.

We should be INCREASING those benefits, it is cruel to even think of cutting the pittance that the most vulnerable people, the disabled, the children of the disabled, widows and the elderly receive which they cannot live on as it is. It is beyond cruel.

But worse, that money is a fund paid for by the people. It is NOT part of the Federal Budget so it is a theft of the people's pension fund which will have devastating effects on many of the most vulnerable people in this country, to pay the gambling debts which they had nothing to do with, of the wealthiest and most corrupt of Americans.

Anyone who supports this is not a Democrat. I am truly hoping it is not true because if it is, there will be one of the biggest backlashes against the party we depend on to protect that fund from the corrupt and greedy Republicans.

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Response to forestpath (Reply #9)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 11:38 PM

28. He gained a lot of political capital with the speech last night

there is lots of fawning today, even though he said nothing about gun control. He going to to use the goodwill garnered with the speech to cut benefits for the needy, knowing that many of his apologists will believe and repeat that last night's performance more than makes up for a budget deal that Reagan would have been proud of.

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Response to Doctor_J (Reply #28)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 11:40 PM

30. not with me. i don't give points for words.

 

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Response to Doctor_J (Reply #28)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 11:43 PM

36. Exactly.

 

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Response to Doctor_J (Reply #28)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 01:31 AM

61. If only he'd been so passionate over the Public Option

Tossing us all over the cliff

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Response to teddy51 (Reply #1)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 11:26 PM

11. What are you talking about? "More phony tears"?

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Response to Cha (Reply #11)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 11:31 PM

19. Do you smell something... odd?

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #19)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 11:34 PM

22. I was hoping this was

an answer to what he meant about "more phony tears". But, we ain't gettin' that.

Not, that I don't like hearing from you, jberryhill.

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Response to Cha (Reply #22)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 11:37 PM

26. Missed me so much you shed "phony tears" I bet

Lol

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #26)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 11:46 PM

40. We've all shed so many tears over the last few days..



And, I'm sure we're not finished.

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Response to Cha (Reply #40)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 03:22 PM

81. Some of us are...

Teddy51 sleeps with the fishes.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #81)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:04 PM

84. Thanks for

letting me know, jberry. It was beyond the pale of disrespect.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #19)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 11:38 PM

27. Update: Oh, I see

he lost his privileges to post anymore on this thread.

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Response to Cha (Reply #27)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 11:42 PM

33. Yeah

I'm sure we'll be seeing more of him elsewhere but, alas, we may never know about the phony tears.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #33)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 11:57 AM

78. Don't make me post the Infowars link. That's the most common search results.

But then, that bunch of racist, libertarian patriots have made an industry of Obama hatred since 2008 and they can't give up now. And we know where the 'Fire him,' line came from, straight from the GOP convention. Strange that neither of those care abour the vulnerable. In fact they demand Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid money be ripped from our pockets to pay their masters, but they will do anything they can get away with to demoralize Democrats.


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Response to Cha (Reply #27)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 03:23 PM

83. Further update: He lost his privileges to post anymore on this board...nt

Sid

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Response to teddy51 (Reply #1)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 11:28 PM

14. Fuck you

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Response to BeyondGeography (Reply #14)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 11:30 PM

15. And right back at ya...

 

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Response to teddy51 (Reply #15)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 11:32 PM

21. Freeper bullshit

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Response to BeyondGeography (Reply #14)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 11:31 PM

20. When the hysteria gets going ..it

gets real Ugly.

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Response to ProSense (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 11:19 PM

6. he reportedly negotiated, made the offer himself. why would he disavow it?

 

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #6)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 11:43 PM

35. Exactly. Why would he back away from his own offer?

absurd premise to this OP

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Response to ProSense (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 11:22 PM

7. Austerity Now! Austerity Forever!

It's the bipartisan thing to do.

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Response to ProSense (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 11:25 PM

10. I guess "shared sacrifice" really means

We do all the sacrificing, the 1% continues to take all the share all the wealth they can get away with.

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Response to ProSense (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 11:27 PM

12. Key phrase being "rumored"...nt

Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #12)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 11:30 PM

16. +1

The need to have him disavow every rumor gives rumormongers undue power over his time.

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #12)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 11:45 PM

39. so far the rumor is being reported by the wa po, la times, reuters, marketwatch,

 

atlanta constitution...

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #39)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 11:47 PM

42. Let us know when it get to wsws, Hannah...nt

Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #42)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 11:48 PM

44. i'll ignore you hereafter.

 

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #44)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 11:49 PM

46. I won't ignore you...

Welcome back, btw.

Sid

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Response to ProSense (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 11:34 PM

23. Ask him that by phone, fax or email, ASAP! n/t

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Response to ProSense (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 11:37 PM

25. I thought he was done negotiating with himself?

I want to believe this is just a rumor, but it's beginning to look like the chained CPI really is a part of Obama's counter offer, albeit with "protection of the vulnerable". What really aggravates me is that he's moved his 250k line in the sand to 400k now. An Boehner is STILL not happy.

Boehner and his ilk have zero leverage, but once it was reported that he and Obama moved to one on one negotiations, I figured the President was going to give away the store again.

http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entry/obama-makes-boehner-new-offer?ref=fpa

The details, via a source familiar with the negotiations, include: a movement on revenue demands to $1.2 trillion from an initial $1.6 trillion, a permanent extension of Bush-era tax rates for incomes less than $400,000 (Obama initially set the threshold at $250,000), $1.2 trillion in spending cuts, a "fast track process" for corporate and individual tax reform once the new Congress convenes, permanent extension of tax extenders and the alternative minimum tax, an extension of unemployment benefits set to expire at the end of the year, additional stimulus in the form of infrastructure spending and a two-year debt limit increase.

The White House proposal would also allow the payroll tax cut to expire, and call for $130 billion in savings from Social Security benefits by adjusting the program's inflation index. The offer would include protections for the most vulnerable recipients, the person said.

Boehner's office welcomed the offer as positive movement, yet still characterized it as an unbalanced proposal.

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Response to ProSense (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 11:41 PM

32. Because he's not really a Dem

or a leader. Maybe the wingers were right about him being a Manchurian candidate - let into office so that a bunch of Dems would get behind Republican proposals just because he proposed them.

If he gives in on this, it will disintegrate the party.

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Response to Doctor_J (Reply #32)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 11:49 PM

48. in coming

 

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Response to Doctor_J (Reply #32)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 11:52 PM

49. Please, cut the bullshit

I'm in a heavily Democratic state, and a union here is about to endorse a friggin Republican: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022014860

And it's not like it hasn't happened before: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021310588

People do stupid things, and this is still only a rumor.





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Response to ProSense (Reply #49)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 09:04 AM

77. The president said last week that he's actually a Repuke

It didn't dawn on me at the time, but I am now pretty sure that declaration was made to set us up for the "concessions" (SS cuts and backing off of the tax hikes) that we got this week. And in fact these aren't really concessions. Since the president is a Repuke, they're actually his true ideology. Didn't you ever wonder why he never fights back when attacked? Why he lied about supporting unions (comfortable shoes)? why the "negotiations" always end up be complete capitulations?

The speech Sunday night was brilliant - and more than a few DUers are willing to overlook his disastrous record because of it. Frankly, I think it's time he thought seriously about changing his party affiliation. If these proposals come to pass it will shred the party. At least if he registers as a (R) we can rebuild with some real Dems.

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Response to Doctor_J (Reply #32)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 01:41 AM

65. Bingo! He is a DINO. Can't believe people are actually defending this!

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Response to ProSense (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 11:47 PM

43. No kidding.

Very disturbing development.

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Response to ProSense (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 11:49 PM

45. Why?

 

To placate the masters of money. It's not like earlier decades in America. The rich and wealthy don't want to participate in the general welfare anymore. They consider themselves privileged.

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Response to ProSense (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 11:49 PM

47. No, No No,

 

Social Security, and Medicare are paid into. Most Baby Boomers are still working and paying in. The current Deficit belongs to Defense and other spending. You need to reduce those Drivers. That General that claims he wants to go into Africa, forget it! Get out of Afghanistan now! Reduce our troops in Germany, South Korea, and Japan. We have been in South Korea ever since the 1950s defending them. We have also been in Japan since World War II ended. Now he wants to keep a force in Afghanistan after 2014. He wants to go into Africa also. The only countries we haven't stayed in is South Vietnam and Iraq, and we are talking about Iran. This is the wasteful spending! This is maddening. The U.S. looks for the boogieman in every corner of the World! Our Constitution didn't ask for this crap and I doubt the founders ever imagined it either. Not only this, they are trying to pacify native populations on our backs!

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Response to ProSense (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 11:55 PM

51. If he tried to disavow all the rumors floating around, he'd never get anything else done

I no longer bother trying to follow the leaks and lies, (even though I sign the odd petition or email expressing my opinion). Between the GOP and the MSM, the production and transmission of false leaks and outright lies never ceases. I wait for the end result. So far President Obama has not been perfect, but he has been pretty darn good.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #51)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 11:58 PM

54. Good post...

but DU runs on speculative outrage. It's in the life blood of many posters.

They're not happy unless they're running around with their hair on fire, screaming about something that hasn't happened.

Sid

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Response to Hekate (Reply #51)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 12:14 AM

58. True, but

when the reports say that the President has made an offer, and Boehner is out rejecting it, creating the impression that it's real...

Obama 'cliff' offer is flawed but positive: Boehner aides
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/12/18/us-fiscal-offer-boehner-idUSBRE8BH04A20121218

...what do you think will happen next? Either the President made the offer or he didn't, but with Boehner rejecting it, someone in the WH is going to have to indicate whether or not the offer is real. The media will continue to report that Obama made an offer and Boehner rejected it.

Is this really where the negotiations stand?



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Response to ProSense (Reply #58)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:33 AM

71. The media is all over this. So I think its true

And Boehner rejected the offer. So, it will go lower. I'm bummed.

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Response to ProSense (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 01:28 AM

60. Yes it should be off limits. And why should Democrats feel obligated to match long overdue revenue

from the Top 2% who have benefited so much

with painful cuts to the bottom 90% ?

The Republicans GENERATED the damn deficits with their wars and tax cuts! They should make up the trillions with tax increases at the top and a teeny weeny transaction tax on Wall Street!

Democrats should not have to make any more cuts until the GOP agrees to raise much more revenue-- at least the cost of the Iraq war and the years of top tax cuts.

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Response to ProSense (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 01:38 AM

63. That trial balloon looked like a Lead Balloon. Either off the cliff or the repukes GIVE!!!

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Response to ProSense (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 01:40 AM

64. Is this the chained CPI thing?

Or is that another matter?

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Response to ProSense (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 05:54 AM

74. Thank you.

This coming from you is very helpful.

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Response to ProSense (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 05:57 AM

75. So how the ownership of that bridge in Brooklyn

going for you?

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Response to ProSense (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 10:04 AM

80. Agree. Stand up to the Reeps. Make them own this debacle!

Don't sell out seniors and the poor!

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