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Mon Dec 17, 2012, 04:14 PM

Cultural seismic shift

We are seeing it folks. We are seeing it.

It will not be now...but change is coming. I think the extreme views are now no longer socially acceptable.

For once I dare hope.

61 replies, 4475 views

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Arrow 61 replies Author Time Post
Reply Cultural seismic shift (Original post)
nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 OP
we can do it Dec 2012 #1
Lindsay Dec 2012 #2
Warpy Dec 2012 #3
doc03 Dec 2012 #4
nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 #5
doc03 Dec 2012 #7
nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 #9
doc03 Dec 2012 #17
nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 #19
Chemisse Dec 2012 #42
MadAnne Dec 2012 #28
flamingdem Dec 2012 #6
malaise Dec 2012 #8
AndyA Dec 2012 #10
nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 #14
Chorophyll Dec 2012 #11
nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 #15
Chorophyll Dec 2012 #18
nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 #23
reformist2 Dec 2012 #12
Chorophyll Dec 2012 #13
MissMarple Dec 2012 #16
nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 #20
reverend_tim Dec 2012 #61
ragemage Dec 2012 #21
Chemisse Dec 2012 #45
AtheistCrusader Dec 2012 #22
LittleGirl Dec 2012 #24
MissMarple Dec 2012 #50
geckosfeet Dec 2012 #25
graham4anything Dec 2012 #26
RKP5637 Dec 2012 #27
Demobrat Dec 2012 #29
nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 #31
heaven05 Dec 2012 #30
nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 #32
HereSince1628 Dec 2012 #33
nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 #35
Surya Gayatri Dec 2012 #34
nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 #36
Surya Gayatri Dec 2012 #37
maindawg Dec 2012 #47
nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 #48
bossy22 Dec 2012 #53
Surya Gayatri Dec 2012 #55
bossy22 Dec 2012 #59
nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 #57
bossy22 Dec 2012 #58
nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 #60
zonkers Dec 2012 #38
maindawg Dec 2012 #39
nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 #40
Lifelong Protester Dec 2012 #41
taxpayer2000 Dec 2012 #43
nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 #46
Hamlette Dec 2012 #44
maindawg Dec 2012 #49
cynatnite Dec 2012 #51
nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 #52
liberalla Dec 2012 #54
nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 #56

Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 04:18 PM

1. I will hope along with you.

I did sense a change while out canvassing this time, too.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 04:19 PM

2. I hope you're right.

The only thing that gives me hope is that there are tipping points, and you never know where or what they'll be until they've been reached.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 04:19 PM

3. I will always put the tipping point at the Katrina disaster

Even Pox News was showing the callousness of the response, the inadequacy of it that "small government" promised.

But yeah, you can feel it. The air doesn't feel as oppressive as it has for decades.

It will be a long battle to rid ourselves of the entrenched fascists.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 04:28 PM

4. The world must be ending when of all people this morning Sen. Joe Manchin agreed something

needs to be done about guns. It's the first time he has ever done anything that wasn't politically expedient for him.

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Response to doc03 (Reply #4)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 04:29 PM

5. And he is not alone.

Morning Joe, he is for an AWB right at the moment.

There are more.

We are on shifting sands now.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #5)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 04:36 PM

7. How long will they stand their ground once the Teabaggers

and the NRA threaten to primary them? This will make Joe Manchin enemy number one in WV in 2014.

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Response to doc03 (Reply #7)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 04:43 PM

9. I suspect this will be more lasting.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #9)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 04:55 PM

17. Sen Joe Manchin ad from first campaign

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Response to doc03 (Reply #17)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 04:57 PM

19. Oh I know.

Any democrat with an A or B rating from the NRA...I won't vote for them.

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Response to doc03 (Reply #7)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 07:00 PM

42. I am thinking they may be losing their power.

This seemed a possibility following the last elections.

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Response to doc03 (Reply #4)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 05:51 PM

28. I think

This will be politically expedient for him. Lots,of people can feel the shift.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 04:35 PM

6. I agree. The only way to manage this horror is change

and now more people see the Republicans and NRA toadies for who they are a lot more after the last election.

We know Obama can do this if the pressure is on, normal humans support it, now is the time.

edit for wave!

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 04:37 PM

8. 100% correct

The NRA will lie side by side with Grover as they drown in his bathtub.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 04:43 PM

10. We know there are going to be more mass shootings, unfortunately

They aren't going to stop now, but people are paying attention and with each one more and more people will demand something be done.

Having a gun is no longer cool, it's dangerous for society.

It's about time.

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Response to AndyA (Reply #10)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 04:48 PM

14. Of course they are.

But we need to keep the pressure...that's it.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 04:44 PM

11. I hope so, Nadin.

I think we've had some disagreements in the past, but I so, so, so hope you're right.

ETA: sorry if I just sounded obnoxious. Eek. It was unintentional.

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Response to Chorophyll (Reply #11)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 04:49 PM

15. No problem, as long as we disagree and are not disagreeable.

Which we are.

But we need to keep the pressure.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #15)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 04:56 PM

18. Absolutely.

I spent the morning writing letters to the President, my senators, and my congresswoman. I've promised to do so every week. And I've been joining like-minded groups as they pop up. The important thing is to make something big and cohesive out of it.

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Response to Chorophyll (Reply #18)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 05:33 PM

23. Funny, that is what a congresswoman told me yesterday

People need to do.

I need to sit down and do the same, for my congressman elect, my delegation and POTUS.

I intend to include state reps. I want even tougher laws, and plant smart gun technology in their minds.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 04:45 PM

12. We live in a world where Barack Obama just got re-elected. We can be allowed to be hopeful.

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Response to reformist2 (Reply #12)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 04:46 PM

13. Indeed.

And the ACA, while flawed, was passed and UPHELD. Never thought I'd see the day. The pendulum is swinging back.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 04:55 PM

16. I told some conservative lady acquaintences a couple of months ago that we were in a cultural shift.

They were not smiling.

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Response to MissMarple (Reply #16)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 05:04 PM

20. I think we are.

A deep one.

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Response to MissMarple (Reply #16)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 04:10 AM

61. Only if we make it happen

we can not leave it to the politicians

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 05:17 PM

21. Change is coming...

This time is different. The images that come to mind when you hear of kids in kindergarten gunned down are visceral...people can relate to children. They feel empathy and pain for them. We were all children once. Changes will happen because of this. This time feels different, is different. I truly hope that is the good (if any) that can come out of this tragedy. We can only hope.

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Response to ragemage (Reply #21)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 07:12 PM

45. You are so right that this was different.

I have not been so stricken by a tragedy in this nation since 9/11, and I think that is true for many of us.

This was highly personal; the little victims represented our children or grandchildren, or the cute kindergartener down the street, or just the sweetness and innocence of any small child. The national grief seemed palpable. Many, many of us shed tears for these children.

I am also hopeful. I am hoping this grief will morph into a common sense of purpose, and the will to get things done, damn the political consequences.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 05:31 PM

22. AS a gun owner,

I tend to agree with you. And it makes sense. I mean, shit, we have people trying to weaponize civilian drones.

I don't personally know where it is 'right' to draw a line in the sand, but something weird is happening here, society-wise. Something is going to give.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 05:37 PM

24. To be honest

The mall shooting last week had me on my last nerve. I thought, NOT AGAIN! I decided not to pay attention to it and I succeeded in blocking it out of my week. BUT and that's a HUGE BUT, the school shooting at Sandy Hook blew me away. I decided that children should not hear bullets and screams as they take their last breath on this earth. THAT was the final straw for me. I do agree with you. I think the senseless murder of these children has made a serious dent in the chest thumping gun owners.

The fact that the NRA took down their facebook page means you could be spot on.

Beautiful speech last night by the President too.

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Response to LittleGirl (Reply #24)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 01:41 AM

50. We will move past this...we will, we always have.

That is why we are still here. This is a true thing. We have survived many tragic and desperate times. In the end we will prevail.

That may sound a bit sappy.. however, it still holds to be a true thing.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 05:38 PM

25. I think so. But still a LOT of education is still needed on both sides of the fence.

I spoke with a friend at work today and there seems to be a very basic misconception among gun control advocates that guns can just be banned with a presidential decree. They can't. There is this thing called the second amendment, and centuries of historical and legal precedent. Any ban needs to be written within the framework of the constitution.

One thing that came out in the Heller case is that certain classes (read that as assault weapons) of firearms and large capacity magazines CAN be regulated when "related to an important governmental interest". And that interest is the public safety. The core of the second amendment is preserved and public safety is maintained.


In the District of Columbia

The D.C. government has indicated it will continue to utilize zoning ordinances to prevent firearms dealers from operating and selling to citizens residing in the District, meaning it will continue to be difficult for residents to legally purchase guns in the District. Additionally, the District enacted new firearms restrictions in an effort to cure the constitutional deficits that the Supreme Court had identified in Heller, specifically three new provisions: (1) the firearms registration procedures; (2) the prohibition on assault weapons; and (3) the prohibition on large capacity ammunition feeding devices. In response, Dick Heller challenged these new restrictions filing a civil suit named Heller v. District of Columbia (Civil Action No. 08-1289 (RMU), No. 23., 25) where he requested a summary judgment to vacate the new prohibitions. On March 26, 2010, the D.C. District Judge Ricardo M. Urbina denied Dick Heller's request and granted the cross motion, finding that the court "concludes that the regulatory provisions that the plaintiffs challenge permissibly regulate the exercise of the core Second Amendment right to use arms for the purpose of self-defense in the home."



But that was in a densely populated urban area - trying to sell that in rural Montana is going to be a different story.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 05:43 PM

26. Patience is paying off.I always said 2013 will be the year President Obama can bring forth everythig

 

as he is now free from running for relection again

and I also fully expect to hear one of the bad scotus will be retiring come June

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 05:43 PM

27. I think there's an awakening within the masses about many things, like a national

WTF is going on. I really do think many are getting fed up with the extreme views on anything/everything. Maybe it'll be a new renaissance, or whatever one terms it ...

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 06:00 PM

29. Won't happen

Obama is backing down already. As long as there is money to be made from guns lost lives will count for nothing.

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Response to Demobrat (Reply #29)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 06:04 PM

31. He is, nooz to the rest of us.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 06:03 PM

30. I'm

in that hope boat too. Just being out in public, the level of awareness one must have now is almost like a combat zone.

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Response to heaven05 (Reply #30)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 06:08 PM

32. Exactly.

I find myself scanning all locations for cover.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 06:09 PM

33. Yes, the angst against the mentally ill is palpable...

I know you are talking regulation on high capacity firearms.

I wish I were kidding about the other sentiments...I know that's mostly the fear of the unknown, but then, that's also what all the mental health advocates say is the underlying cause of stigma.

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Response to HereSince1628 (Reply #33)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 06:14 PM

35. Well short term we need to deal with the guns

Mental health most become a national priority

We also need to address the culture of violence we live in where guns are glorified. Oh and my field needs to stop sanitizing the news.

But a step at a time.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 06:13 PM

34. Has the tipping point been reached--will this latest outrage finally catalyze a critical mass

Last edited Mon Dec 17, 2012, 07:38 PM - Edit history (1)

in public opinion? As I said earlier in another thread:

"Just as other social revolutions have taken root and grown in the nation's psyche (abolitionism, universal suffrage, civil rights, same-sex marriage, etc.) this too will come...

Hearts, minds, and behaviors will be changed, not over weeks and months, but over years and decades.

I believe you may be surprised at the ground swell of grass-roots revulsion and growing clamor for 2nd Amendment revision which is about to engulf all of you euphemistically-termed "gun enthusiasts".

This latest outrage may just prove to be the drop that makes the glass overflow--to paraphrase an apt French expression.

P.S. And let go of that "Dems-never-elected-again" boogeyman. That's what the reactionaries and status-quo believers said when LBJ pushed through the '64 Civil Rights Act."

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Response to Surya Gayatri (Reply #34)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 06:19 PM

36. I think so

And I prefer we start going back to 1791 and the context of the second amendment.

It does not need a revision, it needs a correct interpretation

In modern parlance, you want an infantry rifle, you join the guard.

Well regulated was lost somewhere.

As well the fact that the amendment speaks of the needs of the state...individuals come dead last...in the 18th century it makes sense. You had a Kentucky Long Rifle, you served with the local militia.

That's what I want to see. A return to what they really meant...and contemporaneous papers are legion. They meant Switzerland, not the current mayhem.

Hamilton was even prophetic in Federalist 29.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #36)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 06:29 PM

37. Agree, "well-regulated militia" needs serious reinterpretation...

And Switzerland is indeed an excellent modern example of what is meant by a "militia" for the common defense.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #36)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 07:25 PM

47. we had no standing army

Washington knew that we were not safe yet. He knew we had no Army, he was the General of the Army that did not exist.
The newly independent Americans , of the day were a rough and tumble people. America was a giant forest. A jungle. The brits were actually fighting with just about everyone, you might say they were even conducting a perpetual war for the sake of profit. For money.
And we were the crown jewel. We did not defeat might England the mother country all alone. They were over employed.
America was broke. Dirt poor, and without the power to asses a tax ,,,Nary a tariff ,lest the entire commercial district have cause to riot.
To arms ,meant everyone. We were a semi-primeval ,we did not have indoor plumbing. You had to survive. We have to survive.
If the britts came back , and we thought they might, we had to keep vigilant. So we put that right up front. It was no bluff.

Americans are bad. they are also crazy. They are also brilliant, funny and we have a bad temper. We have a short temper and we are very paranoid.

I must take advantage of this opportunity to tell my tale. I walk ,with my dog , everyday, in the fields behind the school. Here in semi rural Ohio. Sat night , it was like a shooting gallery out there. Every redneck felt the burning desire to fire off a few rounds. they probly drank some beer, smoked and dreamt of tar and feathers got up went to church and well, you know the rest.....

I know that the supreme court ruled on this issue in 1932, and it was resolved that the intent of the founders was not that the general public should own just any weapons.

We should apply that law.

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Response to maindawg (Reply #47)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 07:26 PM

48. Nor did we trust standing armies.

That was settled in 1812

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Response to Surya Gayatri (Reply #34)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:21 AM

53. so far the evidence is not supporting your prediction

While there is a shift going on, it's not as drastic as you may think. Go look at the recent polls- and i mean really look at them, go look at the expanded view not just the headlines. You will see key things- mainly that people still by a majority believe stricter gun control laws would not prevent such a shooting, handguns should be generally legal..etc.

These things indicate to me that society feels that there needs to be some "tweaking" of the status quo.

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Response to bossy22 (Reply #53)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 03:41 AM

55. The ground swell is just beginning to rise...

"Hearts, minds, and behaviors will be changed, not over weeks and months, but over years and decades."

As some point in the not-too-distant future, it will be as socially unacceptable to flash your Bushmaster as it is to light up a butt.

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Response to Surya Gayatri (Reply #55)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 04:05 AM

59. You are forgetting a key componenet

a connection. American generally don't make the connection betwee gun control, gun massacres, availability of weapons, etc...so they may say they want more gun control but in the next question say they don't think it will have much effect on these type of incidents.

Unless you can seriously change that...and I mean signficantly change it...your seismic shift won't happen.

Even professional pollsters are commenting that it remains to be seen if this will be a long term trend.

Again, you may end up being right, but at the moment the evidence is not on your side

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #57)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 04:01 AM

58. There has always been controversy surrounding big chains selling those guns

I'm not surprised.

I wouldn't consider it a ground swell.

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Response to bossy22 (Reply #58)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 04:10 AM

60. It's a start.

But if you think things are just like they always been.

I can't argue with that logic.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 06:41 PM

38. The internet made it happen.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 06:48 PM

39. this is a knee jerk reaction

they will ban scary looking rifles.

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Response to maindawg (Reply #39)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 06:50 PM

40. So outside of the guard you really need to have an infantry riffle?

If you do, universal conscription into the guard.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 06:58 PM

41. I will dare hope with you, too.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 07:10 PM

43. Yall are idiots ...

 

Yes, I am new but please consider this inside info if I were your PR guy ...

1. Easy access to guns is NOT the problem.
2. Easy access to "assault weapons" is NOT the problem.
3. Easy access to ammo IS the problem.
4. Easy access to hi-cap magazines IS the problem.
5. Easy access to guns and ammo is a 10-20 year fix.

A gun without ammo is a club. Guns do not kill people, bullets kill people. Hi-cap mags enable killing many people.

TAX THE SHIT OUT OF AMMO! Quadruple or worse its price at local Walmart! Use its revenues for meaningful violence reduction. Drive them into the ground like tobacco.

STOP hi-cap magazine manufacture, importation, and resale. Neither sportsman nor hunters need more than 5-10 rounds in any rifle, handgun, or shotgun action.

Do not invest all your emotional and political capital in "Assault Weapons" ban. Its legal and moral teeth are very loose, and its effectiveness is mostly inconclusive.

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Response to taxpayer2000 (Reply #43)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 07:14 PM

46. Son...the ban on high cap magazines is a no brainer

Regardless...this is a tipping point.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 07:12 PM

44. this might be the long game Obama supporters talk about

We watched the "three dimensional chess" game during the 2008 primary. I thought Obama had lost a few times during those that election.

Sullivan and others keep talking about Obama playing the "long game". That he needs 4 more years to make "a real difference". I 'm not sure exactly what they mean but I'm seeing part of it today.

Could be true. What would be going on with Romney as prez? I suspect we liberals would be more angry and alienated. That the NRA would NOT have taken down their facebook page. That Romeny would be sounding like Gohmert ("think how great it would have been if the principal had a gun and could have killed the shooter before he killed those children"). America doesn't seem to be buying into that as evidenced by the NRA taking down its facebook page. And Bloomberg would not have been able so credibly to mock the NRA ("their number one goal was to get rid of Obama but Obama won they are not as powerful as some think"...or words to that effect).

Obama being in office will help make the difference. We have to keep fighting but sanity may be coming back to America.

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Response to Hamlette (Reply #44)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 07:33 PM

49. we are as sane as we ever were, we just decided to vote

thats all

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 01:45 AM

51. I felt it at work today...

We have a couple of hardcore RWer birther types. In the past, they would gloat about their guns and their right to own them.

Today, they were very subdued and wouldn't even touch the subject when we talked about this tragedy.

I agree. Change is happening. I hate this is what it took.

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Response to cynatnite (Reply #51)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 01:48 AM

52. Me too.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 03:36 AM

54. I'm of the same mind.

It's happening. The sacred cows are less holy. Won't be as fast as we would like, but it's coming. I like to imagine Grover Norquist and Wayne LaPierre crying in their beer, feeling powerless and swapping stories of "how it used to be..."

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