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Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:03 PM

 

Asperger’s/Mental Illness/Gun control are Red Herrings? Adam was taking controversial drug FANAPT

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by REP (a host of the General Discussion forum).

"Adam Lanza's mother had been increasingly concerned over her son's well-being in the weeks before the tragedy, telling a friend just a week before that he was "getting worse" and that "she was losing him," the New York Daily News reported. That report makes no mention of Asperger's syndrome, but it cites Adam's uncle who said he was taking an anti-psychotic drug called Fanapt."
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2012/12/aspergers-is-a-red-herring-to-explain-newtown.html

If this were the case, it would not be the first time....


School Shooting Prozac WITHDRAWAL 2008-02-15 ** 6 Dead: 15 Wounded: Perpetrator Was in Withdrawal from Med & Acting Erratically

School Shooting Prozac Antidepressant 2005-03-24 Minnesota **10 Dead: 7 Wounded: Dosage Increased One Week before Rampage

School Shooting Paxil Antidepressant 2001-03-10 Pennsylvania **14 Year Old GIRL Shoots & Wounds Classmate at Catholic School

School Shooting Zoloft Antidepressant & ADHD Med 2011-07-11 Alabama **14 Year Old Kills Fellow Middle School Student

School Shooting Zoloft Antidepressant 1995-10-12 South Carolina **15 Year Old Shoots Two Teachers, Killing One: Then Kills Himself

School Shooting Med For Depression 2009-03-13 Germany **16 Dead Including Shooter: Antidepressant Use: Shooter in Treatment For Depression

School Hostage Situation Med For Depression 2010-12-15 France **17 Year Old with Sword Holds 20 Children & Teacher Hostage

School Shooting Plot Med For Depression WITHDRAWAL 2008-08-28 Texas **18 Year Old Plots a Columbine School Attack

School Shooting Anafranil Antidepressant 1988-05-20 Illinois **29 Year Old WOMAN Kills One Child: Wounds Five: Kills Self

School Shooting Luvox/Zoloft Antidepressants 1999-04-20 Colorado **COLUMBINE: 15 Dead: 24 Wounded

School Stabbings Antidepressants 2001-06-09 Japan **Eight Dead: 15 Wounded: Assailant Had Taken 10 Times his Normal Dose of Depression Med

School Shooting Prozac Antidepressant WITHDRAWAL 1998-05-21 Oregon **Four Dead: Twenty Injured

School Stabbing Med For Depression 2011-10-25 Washington **Girl, 15, Stabs Two Girls in School Restroom: 1 Is In Critical Condition

School Shooting Antidepressant 2006-09-30 Colorado **Man Assaults Girls: Kills One & Self

School Machete Attack Med for Depression 2001-09-26 Pennsylvania **Man Attacks 11 Children & 3 Teachers at Elementary School

School Shooting Related Luvox 1993-07-23 Florida **Man Commits Murder During Clinical Trial for Luvox: Same Drug as in COLUMBINE: Never Reported

School Hostage Situation Cymbalta Antidepressant WITHDRAWAL 2009-11-09 New York **Man With Gun Inside School Holds Principal Hostage

School Shooting Antidepressants 1992-09-20 Texas **Man, Angry Over Daughter's Report Card, Shoots 14 Rounds inside Elementary School

School Shooting SSRI 2010-02-19 Finland **On Sept. 23, 2008 a Finnish Student Shot & Killed 9 Students Before Killing Himself

School Shooting Threat Med for Depression* 2004-10-19 New Jersey **Over-Medicated Teen Brings Loaded Handguns to School

School Shooting Antidepressant? 2007-04-18 Virginia **Possible SSRI Use: 33 Dead at Virginia Tech

School Shooting Antidepressant? 2002-01-17 Virginia **Possible SSRI Withdrawal Mania: 3 Dead at Law School

School Incident/Bizarre Zoloft* 2010-08-22 Australia **School Counselor Exhibits Bizarre Behavior: Became Manic On Zoloft

School/Assault Antidepressant 2009-11-04 California **School Custodian Assaults Student & Principal: Had Manic Reaction From Depression Med

School Shooting Prozac Antidepressant 1992-01-30 Michigan **School Teacher Shoots & Kills His Superintendent at School

more
http://ssristories.com/index.php?p=school


If it were these anti-depressants causing psychotic episodes, would you trust the corporate media to report on it?

I hardly watch any TV but when I do it is obvious that Big Pharma pays most of the corporate media's bills, would they really bite the hand that feeds?

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Reply Asperger’s/Mental Illness/Gun control are Red Herrings? Adam was taking controversial drug FANAPT (Original post)
No Compromise Dec 2012 OP
RomneyLies Dec 2012 #1
Squinch Dec 2012 #116
AtheistCrusader Dec 2012 #160
Squinch Dec 2012 #161
AtheistCrusader Dec 2012 #164
No Compromise Dec 2012 #174
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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:05 PM

1. Could have been he stopped taking it, too.

 

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Response to RomneyLies (Reply #1)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:23 PM

116. Or it could be that this is an unsubstantiated internet rumor posted by a very new poster who has an

anti gun control agenda and wants to deflect attention from the guns.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #116)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 04:37 PM

160. I don't see anything relevant to firearms regulation in this line of questioning.

Adam was able to access the firearms.
He was able to use them
They have a certain cyclic rate, capacity, and portability.


None of these items are called into question or dismissed by determining what the blue fuck was wrong with his mindset.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #160)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 04:41 PM

161. The title is saying that gun control is a red herring.

And the Daily News has withdrawn the story that the shooter was on this drug.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #161)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 04:47 PM

164. I guess I dismissed the subject line as meaningless babble.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #161)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 05:10 PM

174. The story I posted is still there- why are you saying that please?

 

??

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Response to No Compromise (Reply #174)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 05:33 PM

186. Googling "FANAPT" and "Newtown shooter", or "FANAPT and

Lanza" shows no credible sources for the story. Googling "Daily News" and "FANAPT" and "Newtown shooter" or "Lanza" shows an article that has been updated to omit any reference to FANAPT.

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Response to No Compromise (Reply #174)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 06:04 PM

194. The story you posted used another as its source and that source has recanted or at least doesn't

say he was on fanapt. nymag says it got the info from a source with the link on that page and going to that link shows NOTHING about fanapt or an uncle. They got punked. And did you. There is no source beyond "someone told me" because going back to that "someone" there is no reference to it.


Article that says he was (http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2012/12/aspergers-is-a-red-herring-to-explain-newtown.html) links their source as http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/nancy-lanza-feared-son-adam-worse-article-1.1221505 which has nothing about fanapt or an uncle.

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #194)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 06:35 PM

203. or someone paid them to remove it- let the media call the uncle in question and find out

 


This is the job of the media?

What has the media been doing? Their reporting was absolutely horrible, first blaming a teacher, unintentionally I am sure.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #116)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 05:02 PM

170. look I hate guns, won't have one in the house, I am a vegetarian for God's sake

 

but, I remember reading here on DU that violence in the US is actually down, even with the bad economy, people have not been resorting to gun violence.

It is only these bizarre incidents that are on the rise, and I want to know why, beyond the fact that the gun exists.


I do find it odd, that no one is talking about saving Social Security anymore. I have seen more passionate posts about getting rid of guns forever, than protecting our seniors and the needy among us from the vultures in Washington DC.

Republicans were losing the argument badly, now The media has completely changed the subject. The party has completely changed the focus, now we're all about introducing gun legislation.

This issue is a non starter, meant to divide and conquer. Having lost on the gays and abortions, they are headed for the gun issue. Surely they have find a way to keep us bickering meanwhile they allow corporations to loot our treasury and steal from the least of us.

I read it put best here on DU 'The Democratic Party is attempting to steal defeat from the jaws of victory"

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Response to No Compromise (Reply #170)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 07:02 PM

209. "people have not been resorting to gun violence"

That is so fucking rich.

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Response to RomneyLies (Reply #1)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 04:30 PM

157. Lawyer DeCamp worked on Columbine and judge would not allow evidence on drugs

 

and these episodes. He said the drug trials showed 1 in 4, that's 25% of people will be homicidal or suicidal, when taking these drugs. Yes...this crap is KNOWN by the drug companies. Judge said it was not admissable evidence during the Columbine trials.

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:08 PM

2. Anti-psychotic drugs are probably not the chief cause of psychosis.

And anti-depresant drugs are not the main cause of suicide either.

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Response to cthulu2016 (Reply #2)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:12 PM

8. Clearly anti-psychotic drugs do not CAUSE psychosis,

they are PRESCRIBED (by physicians) to ameliorate symptoms of psychosis, suggesting that he had been diagnosed with such condition. More facts due, in this matter, clearly.

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Response to elleng (Reply #8)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:25 PM

31. When you hear the ads for these drugs, listen when they list side effects.

The drugs can make psychosis worse, according to the drug makers.

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Response to louis-t (Reply #31)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:47 PM

67. Studies on the NIH.GOV website concur

 

NIH.GOV: Antidepressants and Violence-Problems at the Interface of Medicine & Law

Both clinical trial and pharmacovigilance data point to possible links between these drugs and violent behaviours. The legal cases outlined returned a variety of verdicts that may in part have stemmed from different judicial processes. Many jurisdictions appear not to have considered the possibility that a prescription drug may induce violence.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1564177/

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022008133

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Response to green for victory (Reply #67)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:01 PM

85. +1

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Response to green for victory (Reply #67)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:21 PM

114. But an anti-depressant and an anti-psychotic are two different things. nt

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #114)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 06:05 PM

196. True...but, I'm going to post to you what I did below..Re: Paradoxical Reactions to Drugs

Paradoxical reaction
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

A paradoxical reaction or paradoxical effect is an effect of medical treatment, usually a drug, opposite to the effect which would normally be expected.

An example of a paradoxical reaction is when a pain relief medication causes an increase in pain. Some sedatives prescribed for adults actually cause hyperactivity in children.

For example, there are serious complications occurring in conjunction with the use of sedatives creating a series of effects in some people, that are the total opposite of those expected. The paradoxical reactions may consist of depression, with or without suicidal tendencies, phobias, aggressiveness, violent behavior and symptoms sometimes misdiagnosed as psychosis.

ONE EXAMPLE:
Benzodiazepines

Benzodiazepines, a class of psychoactive drugs called the "minor" tranquilizers, have varying hypnotic, sedative, anxiolytic, anticonvulsant, and muscle relaxing properties, but they may create the exact opposite effects. Susceptible individuals may respond to benzodiazepine treatment with an increase in anxiety, aggressiveness, agitation, confusion, disinhibition, loss of impulse control, talkativeness, violent behavior, and even convulsions. Paradoxical adverse effects may even lead to criminal behaviour. Severe behavioral changes resulting from benzodiazepines have been reported including mania, schizophrenia, anger, impulsivity, and hypomania. Self aggression has been reported and also demonstrated in laboratory conditions in a clinical study. Diazepam was found to increase people's willingness to harm themselves. Paradoxical effects of benzodiazepines appear to be dose related, that is, likelier to occur with higher doses. In a letter to the British Medical Journal, it was reported that a high proportion of parents referred for actual or threatened child abuse were taking drugs at the time, often a combination of benzodiazepines and tricyclic antidepressants. Many mothers described that instead of feeling less anxious or depressed, they became more hostile and openly aggressive towards the child as well as to other family members while consuming tranquilizers. The author warned that environmental or social stresses such as difficulty coping with a crying baby combined with the effects of tranquilizers may precipitate a child abuse event. Benzodiazepines can sometimes cause a paradoxical worsening of EEG readings in patients with seizure disorders. Paradoxical rage reactions due to benzodiazepines occur as a result of an altered level of consciousness, which generates automatic behaviors, anterograde amnesia and uninhibited aggression. These aggressive reactions may be caused by a disinhibiting serotonergic mechanism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradoxical_reaction

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Response to KoKo (Reply #196)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 06:08 PM

197. And, My Personal Reactions to Two Drugs:

"Paradoxical Effects" on some people with Anti-Depressents......

View profile
(I'm a person who has had paradoxical effects from drugs. I don't like to fly and am prone to panic attacks so I got a prescription for one of the Benzodiazepine drugs. I took a pill and freaked out heading to the airport with a panic attack along with violent shaking. It was a good thing I wasn't driving. I never took another pill and stopped flying because it freaked me out so bad. Many years later I had an minor operation but became so agitated in the recovery room they had to hold me down because part of the the anesthesia had some derivative of a benzodiazepine in it and caused me to have a reaction. The hospital actually refunded me the money for my anethesia on my bill because I had put on my Patient information chart that I was allergic to Benzodiazepines and someone didn't check when they gave me the particular anesthesia that they did.

So this can happen. Plus both my daughter and I can't take Benadryl for colds or allergy. We both freak out instead of becoming drowsy. No one else in our family has that contrarian reaction. I found out about it when she was little and screamed all night when she was prescribed it for a mild ear ache...and years later I took it for a sinus infection (not thinking that my daughter had a former reaction) and became horribly agitated with palpitations and cold sweats.

Different Meds for Different Folks...can cause some strange stuff.

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Response to louis-t (Reply #31)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:25 PM

119. People here are mixing up anti-depressants and anti-psychotics. They're not the same.

His uncle said he was taking an anti-psychotic, which means he was having symptoms of psychosis. And the purpose of the drug was to treat those symptoms. One of the biggest problems with anti-psychotics is compliance -- those who need them often refuse to take them. They can lead to weight gain, tremors, and other unpleasant symptoms.

On the other hand, anti-depressants and anti-depressant withdrawal have been linked to suicide and other acts of violence -- but that isn't what the uncle said he was taking.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #119)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 05:12 PM

175. "unpleasant symptoms" include neuro-malignant syndrome, diabetes, and so on. Official PDR reports

And the new generation of anti-psychotic meds may be even more dangerous than the first and second generation drugs. .And the pharma companies are pushing doctors to give this class of drugs to children.

More profit though

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Response to Cetacea (Reply #175)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 06:17 PM

201. I think there are two different issues.

One is whether this particular drug is a good drug. From what I've read, it isn't as effective as other drugs in its class and so it isn't recommended. Also, I agree with you that they shouldn't be marketing anti-psychotic drugs to people without psychosis -- and that goes double for children. They all have significant side effects and should only be used when really needed.

OTOH, I haven't seen anything that would indicate that this drug -- apart from its relative ineffectiveness -- would have caused Lanza to have psychotic symptoms.Unfortunately, it obviously wasn't effective enough, or he wasn't taking it (compliance is a major problem among people with these disorders).

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #201)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 06:34 PM

202. But...don't confine this to one particular drug..He must have been on others

throughout his life. And, all of these drugs can manifest themselves in different ways do to differences in body chemistry.

I've tried to post about this here...I think above in this post.

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Response to KoKo (Reply #202)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 06:59 PM

208. But schizophrenia and psychosis has existed forever . . . if drugs or something

environmental were causing it, it should be on the upswing.

(Mass murders may be on the upswing, but that's probably due to the easy availability of killing machines. Pistols didn't use to come with 30 bullet clips.)

You're right that various drugs have different effects in different people. So do other substances. Schizophrenics and people with autism are more likely to have Celiac disease and gluten intolerance, for example.

But why limit the discussion to one set of drugs? If you're going to implicate an anti-psychotic, why not an anti-histamine? Benadryl can cause neurological symptoms in some people. Could Benadryl have caused him to go around the bend?

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #208)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 07:08 PM

210. And, My Personal Reactions to Two Drugs: (Benadryl being One)

. And, My Personal Reactions to Two Drugs:

View profile

Last edited Mon Dec 17, 2012, 06:11 PM USA/ET - Edit history (1)
"Paradoxical Effects" on some people with Anti-Depressents......

View profile
(I'm a person who has had paradoxical effects from drugs. I don't like to fly and am prone to panic attacks so I got a prescription for one of the Benzodiazepine drugs. I took a pill and freaked out heading to the airport with a panic attack along with violent shaking. It was a good thing I wasn't driving. I never took another pill and stopped flying because it freaked me out so bad. Many years later I had an minor operation but became so agitated in the recovery room they had to hold me down because part of the the anesthesia had some derivative of a benzodiazepine in it and caused me to have a reaction. The hospital actually refunded me the money for my anethesia on my bill because I had put on my Patient information chart that I was allergic to Benzodiazepines and someone didn't check when they gave me the particular anesthesia that they did.

So this can happen. Plus both my daughter and I can't take Benadryl for colds or allergy. We both freak out instead of becoming drowsy. No one else in our family has that contrarian reaction. I found out about it when she was little and screamed all night when she was prescribed it for a mild ear ache...and years later I took it for a sinus infection (not thinking that my daughter had a former reaction) and became horribly agitated with palpitations and cold sweats.

Different Meds for Different Folks...can cause some strange stuff.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #119)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 07:26 PM

211. Remeber though that some have reactions to Penicillin and some to Sulfate drugs

the two most commonly prescribed "old drug" and yet the "New Drugs" are put out fast with it taking time to figure out who has a problem...because the drugs are considered "Life Saving" and the interactions and consequences are just considered "Collarteral Damage" because the need for drugs/medication is so overwhelming in need in our society/culture/medical problems...that INSTANT fulfills needs.

Therefore FDA releases drugs "SOONER rather than LATER" with "Patient Benefit" Being the over-riding reason.

It's not up to me to judge the "Public Need" and "outcry" VERSUS the "SAFTY STATS of these DRUGS....

Just saying this to you.

Just so you know both Hubbie and Me have been involved with BIG PHARMA since Hillary and Bill were at Yale Law School. We were there in MED TECH at that time..........They were in Law School there while we were at Yale Med School a couple of years behind.

Doesn't mean we know more...but, it's important here on DU to try to at least give some info about your experience to have some kind of credibility in all this that goes on these days.

Just saying........for what it's worth...

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Response to elleng (Reply #8)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:49 PM

69. side effects of Fanapt

Phychiatric side effects of Fanapt (iloperiodone)

http://www.drugs.com/sfx/fanapt-side-effects.html

Psychiatric side effects including restlessness, aggression, and delusion have been reported frequently. Hostility, decreased libido, paranoia, anorgasmia, confusional state, mania, catatonia, mood swings, panic attack, obsessive-compulsive disorder, bulimia nervosa, delirium, polydipsia psychogenic, impulse-control disorder, and major depression have been reported infrequently.

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #69)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:00 PM

84. and someone prescribed this to him???

Think we'll hear about that?

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Response to elleng (Reply #84)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:09 PM

99. Eventually we should hear. Some of us have thought he might have been on

a new medication and these medications affect people differently. The drug warnings on these meds are enough to cause concern.

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #69)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:10 PM

101. that's just about everything!

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #69)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:33 PM

126. This is like people saying that hospitals are dangerous places because people die of cancer there.

People are given Fanapt because of psychotic symptoms. Psychotic people often have a myriad of other co-existing problems. When they're given medicines to reduce psychosis, the medicines don't always eliminate every symptom and so these symptoms get reported.

It's like when they report that Tylenol has been linked to cold symptoms. Of course it has, because people take Tylenol when they're sick.

It IS possible that in a susceptible person, an anti-psychotic could make things worse. But just seeing a list of symptoms like this isn't proof of anything; these symptoms could be a true side effect of the medication, or they could be a lingering effect of the original mental illness.

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #69)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 04:46 PM

163. Holy Moly, Mother of God....

I read the article at the link. I don't see anything there about dosage. It would be nice if we could see a more recent picture of Adam. I think he looks emaciated in the only picture I've seen (beside the sketch). In that picture, I couldn't believe how thin he looked, or rather how big his shirt was. I think I read somewhere that he was vegan, which also might explain his frailty. Could they not find any better photos of Adam? (Maybe there weren't any more.) Well, if he was taking this drug for a week or more, and he was experiencing even a few of those side affects, and then topped it off with some illicit drugs and/or alcohol? Bingo. Did anyone read that Psychology Today article the other day on the affects of illicit drugs on top of this kind of drug he had been prescribed? Lordy, Lordy, I just hope there are no more perfect storms of this kind ready to blow out there in our society. But, sadly, there probably are...

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Response to cthulu2016 (Reply #2)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:30 PM

39. Some anti-depressants have suicidal thoughts as a side effect

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Response to KittyWampus (Reply #39)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:46 PM

66. 'I used to be depressed, now I just want to kill myself'

That's what I think whenever I see those anti-depressant medication ads, where they list suicidal thoughts as a side effect. WTF.

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Response to KittyWampus (Reply #39)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:34 PM

129. But this isn't an anti-depressant, according to the uncle. It's an anti-psychotic.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #129)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 05:05 PM

171. C'mon. It's got the word "anti" in it...

so it must be the same.



Sid

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Response to cthulu2016 (Reply #2)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:40 PM

58. But if they are prescribed, and if that is the case here, it means someone diagnosed

this person as being psychotic. If that is the case, then why were all those guns kept in the house? I have a family member who has been diagnosed as paranoid schizophrenic and other personality disorders. His family removed all weapons from their home after he showed signs of becoming violent. He was definitely not encouraged to 'learn how to use a gun safely' even though he was interested in guns. Nor were his fantasies about surviving civil unrest entertained by anyone close to him. It was hard to get help as we have no worth while services available for the mentally ill. But eventually with a lot of hard work and time he is now in a stable situation and seems to have the right combination of meds. But his parents were fully aware and lived in fear of him doing something violent so they worked hard to try to prevent it. Without much help from our HC system.

We found out that the last mass murderer had been seen for mental health issues also, and the one before that.

The problem is we never hear the whole story. The story dies down before the public ever learns much about the causes of these tragedies. It's as if they are deliberately being ignored, because either the gun lobby or big pharma has too much of a financial stake in letting the facts come out.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #58)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:03 PM

92. Some of it may be due to

doctor/patient confidentiality.

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Response to HappyMe (Reply #92)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 04:30 PM

158. True, but my point was that the family knows and it is then their responsibility to take steps

to prevent such a person from access to deadly weapons. I think that happens more often than not and we don't hear about it because it works.

The mother in this case apparently did know her son had problems. And if the reports are true that she was arming herself against potential civil unrest due to an economic collapse, then she too had some problems of her own, imo. So probably she wasn't the best person to have been responsible for her son. Fear is strong emotion and someone who has the kind of fears she is reported to have had, could not give up their weapons as they should if they have a psychotic family member living with them.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #58)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:40 PM

133. What you said, in spades

And if a person suffering mental illness is stabilized by a powerful drug, and a bad case of stomach flu purges his gut of the medication....boom! Right back where you started.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #58)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 05:09 PM

173. It sounds like the mother may have had her own issues.

She's being described as a gun fanatic and a survivalist who was preparing for economic collapse.

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:08 PM

3. IIRC I saw a set of articles similar to this published by the Scientologists.

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Response to cliffordu (Reply #3)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:15 PM

12. maybe this is crazy? But let's force the media to pursue this....

 

this media cannot be trusted. They get paid huge sums by Big Pharma.

If this is at issue...I want to know about it. Anything the media is currently doing is a diversion, count on it. Limbaugh says it is about video games and movies, so we know now that has absolutely nothing to do with it.

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Response to No Compromise (Reply #12)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:14 PM

107. We need to end Big Pharma

ads on TV, this used to be illegal. Bring back the Big Pharma payoffs to the media.

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Response to mikeysnot (Reply #107)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:34 PM

128. Yes, get rid of the ads

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Response to No Compromise (Reply #12)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:24 PM

118. But if guns are at issue, that must be a red herring. OK.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #118)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 05:20 PM

180. I am sorry that I upset you with that headline- I was just adding to the NY Mag headline

 

I see that you are against assault weapons and I read everyone discussing legislation to eliminate assault weapons, but didn't the murderer leave the assault weapon in the trunk and not actually use it? I have no idea.

I actually could care less about the gun issue because I think there is more at play here. Everyone keeps asking 'how could someone be so evil?' 'How could someone shoot little children so many times?'

This person never should have had access to guns (very irresponsible parent knowing he had issues)...BUT these drugs might explain why he did this, how he could do this, the kind of zombie non feeling mentality that would allow someone to carry this out.

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Response to No Compromise (Reply #180)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 06:12 PM

199. Except there is no credible source that he was.

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #199)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 06:41 PM

204. NY magazine still has it up, guess they haven't been paid off yet

 

that quote came from somewhere, and I want the corporate media to look into what drugs this 20 year old was on.

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Response to cliffordu (Reply #3)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:19 PM

20. If the stories are true, what matters who publishes them? J/S.

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Response to WinkyDink (Reply #20)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:57 PM

75. the publisher might be a good indication the stories are not true

 

I'm not going to believe information on psychiatry from Scientologists any more than I'm going to believe the NRA on the safety of automatic weapons, or Exxon/Mobil on environmental impact.

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Response to FreeBC (Reply #75)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:19 PM

111. will you believe the US GOV?

 

"Both clinical trial and pharmacovigilance data point to possible links between these drugs and violent behaviours. The legal cases outlined returned a variety of verdicts that may in part have stemmed from different judicial processes. Many jurisdictions appear not to have considered the possibility that a prescription drug may induce violence.

"......In these trials, hostile events are found to excess in both adults and children on paroxetine compared with placebo, and are found across indications, and both on therapy and during withdrawal.

"...Several reports published since 1990 have linked SSRI intake with the production of emotional blunting, detachment, or an amotivational syndrome, described in one report as the equivalent to a

“chemical lobotomy”

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1564177/

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:09 PM

4. The One and Only time I ever took anti depressants within two weeks

I was thinking of ways to kill my family.

Pharmaceuticals are fucking dangerous.

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Response to CBGLuthier (Reply #4)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:25 PM

34. Dangerous for some, for others they save lives, and lives around them.

Your experience illustrates why they should always be prescribed only with medical supervision that includes deliberate and meaningful follow-up care.



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Response to CBGLuthier (Reply #4)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:28 PM

36. you are joking?

 

I do know someone who was taking Zoloft and had a violent fight with her husband.

She was not in her right mind, he provoked her then used it to get custody of their son.

It might affect people's lives more than they realize.

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Response to No Compromise (Reply #36)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:01 PM

88. and I took Zoloft for post-partum and it helped immensely

Doctor supervision is key.

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Response to CBGLuthier (Reply #4)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:21 PM

113. My daughter was on depression meds throughout high school, Lexapro and the lowest dosage possible.

It helped her get through that time but now she says she remembers almost nothing of that time. Our family will be talking about things that happened then and she doesn't have any recollection of it.

Looking back, I often wish I would have looked into the meds and maybe some counseling more before letting her take them.

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Response to CBGLuthier (Reply #4)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 06:04 PM

195. And so is

 

schizophrenia! Adam was at the perfect age (late teens and early 20's) for the disease to strike. Obviously he had other mental and emotional problems for most of his life.

I just wonder if he had the genetic marker for schizophrenia as well.

When my cousin first displayed the disease, he heard voices telling him that a young woman had been raped and he had to beat the hell out of these 2 dudes....which he tried to do. That is when he was diagnosed. Maybe Adam told no one of the voices?

Maybe Adam NEVER showed any signs of violence in his life. But with schizophrenia, the voices are real and one feels a compulsion to do as they say.

I don't know if a DNA test could determine schizophrenia in Adam.

We'll probably never know what happened to this family. But the mother and father were married for 28 years until 3 years ago. The father makes very big $$$$ working for GE Capital in taxes. The mother had been awarded over $250,000 in alimony last year.

Given that the median income in Newtown is over $100,000, I am sure very little in the way of crime occurs there. I hope a more seasoned law enforcement agency takes over the investigation.

It appears that Dad can buy privacy and isn't saying much.

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:09 PM

5. Sometimes it isn't the LACK of access to mental health care, it's the ACCESS itself

And by that, I mean drugs. This society has completely conflated "mental health care" with "use of psychiatric drugs" and I think that is the actual problem.

Bring back ACTUAL mental health care, not just drug dispensing!

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Response to Duer 157099 (Reply #5)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:16 PM

13. You don't even have to be depressed for a doctor to

want to put you on an antidepressant. I have metal rods and screws in my back and a doctor wanted to give me Paxil for back pain. All I wanted was a mild muscle relaxer to take occasionally. The doc got angry when I refused the Paxil. If you have fibromyalgia many docs want to give you antidepressants. Insomnia - antidepressant. Some doctors think they are a friggin' cure all.


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Response to ohheckyeah (Reply #13)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:25 PM

32. Yes. This is something many people don't realize

SSRIs--and other psychotropic drugs--are prescribed for many other symptoms, including chronic pain. "Off label" they call it.

It's often their first suggested treatment.

Very dangerous to society and humans, imho.

Treated for pain and before you know it, you're brain has adapted itself to needing SSRIs.

Because god forbid you actually get pain meds!

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Response to Duer 157099 (Reply #32)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:34 PM

45. I fell for it once - right after

my surgery. It was a nightmare coming off the anti-depressants but it was so worth it. I'd rather be in pain than be numb, anxious or angry.

I still have pain from the back surgery, still have fibrocytis pain, still have insomnia. but I deal.

Something some people don't know is some SSRIs can cause anxiety disorder for which they then give you Xanax. Xanax can cause depression which they treat by then upping your SSRI which causes more anxiety and requires more Xanax.......you get the picture. I went through that craziness for about 1 year and eventually got off all the medication. If the pain gets unbearable again I'll use pot, which of course could get my ass thrown in jail.

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Response to ohheckyeah (Reply #45)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:44 PM

62. I'm starting to get it!

 

Pot makes people feel good. No one argues that, it's why good stuff costs as much as gold.

Pot is made illegal. Then when people want to feel good they're supposed to pay this guy to write a permission slip so they can go to this store and present their permission slip to buy something that is made in a lab by guys wearing masks that hasn't been tested in any human for longer than 20 or 30 years.

That makes sense!

Oh, and while everyone that is using pot to feel good is getting arrested the US Government patents the use of the main ingredient in pot- patent #6630507

http://www.google.com/patents/US6630507

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Response to Duer 157099 (Reply #32)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:34 PM

127. zyban = wellbutrin, sarafem = prozac. it's criminal.

 

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Response to ohheckyeah (Reply #13)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:38 PM

53. Different antidepressants work in different ways

Some antidepressants and anti-seizure drugs work in the pain pathways of the body and are especially effective in managing chronic pain. Different antidepressants (like Trazadone and Elavil) cause sleepiness, so taking a low dose at night can be effective for insomnia without dependance issues that are common with sleep medication.

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Response to TexasBushwhacker (Reply #53)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:59 PM

80. I understand that -

I worked in a VA pharmacy.

Antidepressants CAN have terrible side effects for some people. Many people don't know what those side effects include because they aren't told....side effects like anxiety and panic attacks. When I had those side effects the doc didn't change my medication he just added Xanax, which by the way can cause anorexia and agoraphobia which you most likely won't be told.

Even after I told doctors I had bad side effects and wasn't interested in taking an antidepressant they kept insisting. I fired those doctors and finally gave up. I deal the best I can.

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Response to ohheckyeah (Reply #80)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 05:26 PM

183. "I had bad side effects and wasn't interested in taking an antidepressant they kept insisting"

 


what is up with that?

Why are doctors pushing this crap on people, even for unrelated conditions?

Grandma always warned us about the 'drug pushers' on the street corner, but no one warned us about the ones on the TV and at the doctor's office.

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Response to No Compromise (Reply #183)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 06:12 PM

198. I wonder if they get kick backs

on the drugs. I had a pharmacist tell me they get kickbacks on Premarin.

They get in a mindset, IMO, and tend to push the latest thing the drug reps are pushing.

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Response to ohheckyeah (Reply #198)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 06:43 PM

205. Don't doctors already make enough $$ ? What kind of sick bastard would push crap

 

that harms their patients ?

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Response to No Compromise (Reply #205)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 07:31 PM

212. Greedy bastards.

I sometimes lie to doctors now instead of fighting with them. Want me to take Premarin (estrogen from horse urine)? I tell them I'm allergic to horses.

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Response to Duer 157099 (Reply #5)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:16 PM

14. What is your experience with mental health treatment?

I suffer from depression, anxiety and ADHD.
I have been taking meds since 1994 and have only positive outcomes as do millions of people around the world.
I don't think you have valid ground to speak from. I could be wrong.

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Response to upaloopa (Reply #14)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:20 PM

22. Maybe you should read more of the SSRI effects on young people.

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Response to WinkyDink (Reply #22)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:30 PM

38. You didn't answer my question. I could read books and

articles on both sides then I would have to choose which to believe and built in bias most likely would lead me to my conclusion.

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Response to WinkyDink (Reply #22)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 04:14 PM

150. He was 20

Not a child. Amazing the lengths people will go to protect their WMD.

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Response to upaloopa (Reply #14)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:20 PM

23. It is clear that (some) meds offer tremendous help to (some) people

And I have much more experience than you could possibly imagine, in several ways.

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Response to Duer 157099 (Reply #23)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:32 PM

42. I work for county alcohol drug and mental health services and you?

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Response to upaloopa (Reply #14)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:24 PM

30. You say "I suffer from depression, anxiety and ADHD . . . meds since 1994" Do they affect your

 

decision making?

I ask because you imply "you have valid ground to speak from"?

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Response to jody (Reply #30)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:33 PM

44. Yes they do if I don't take the meds.

I would not have any kind of "normal" life without the meds.

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Response to upaloopa (Reply #44)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:39 PM

55. Thanks for the reply and I'm so glad you found meds that help you live a normal life. I have several

 

friends all veterans with PTSD, and their lives have been wrecked.

One is a retired USN Commander and SEAL with a fantastic record, two Purple Hearts and Navy Cross among those friends.

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Response to jody (Reply #55)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:45 PM

63. I had trouble when I got back from Vietnam

I can't say what effect the war had on my mental health. I'm sure it has something to do with my depression and anxiety. I've had ADHD all my life but they called what I delt with character defects when I was a kid.

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Response to upaloopa (Reply #63)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:58 PM

78. I to was in Vietnam. Have happy holidays brother.

 

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Response to jody (Reply #78)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:06 PM

94. Same to you

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Response to jody (Reply #30)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:37 PM

50. Are you trying to say that people with mental health challenges do not have valid or

grounded opinions, or that they're decision-making is automatically suspect?

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Response to Care Acutely (Reply #50)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:10 PM

102. If you are asking me I am not saying that

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Response to Care Acutely (Reply #50)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 05:39 PM

188. A lot of other people seem to be implying that. The amount of discrimation and insensitivity is wack

But again, it's all about being educated.

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Response to upaloopa (Reply #14)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:36 PM

49. Actually I've been treated for all three.

I took Deseryl which then caused anxiety which they gave me Xanax for. That aggravated the ADD for which they gave me Dexedrine. I was taking uppers, downers and anti-depressants. I got off all three drugs and I'm doing well except for physical pain from my back, for which I either take ibuprofen or get in the hot tub.

I don't do well on drugs, if they work for you that's great, but everyone is different.

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Response to ohheckyeah (Reply #49)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:39 PM

57. I agree everyone is different and so does the medical

community. They would be the first to tell you that.

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Response to upaloopa (Reply #14)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:00 PM

83. I agree, upaloopa

I suffer from generalized anxiety disorder, some depression and SAD. Thank G-d for medication, along with cognitive therapy. I used to have terrible panic attacks and the meds have helped. I also am sure to follow up with my doc when I'm supposed to. Millions (maybe more?) take anti-depressants and don't go around killing people.

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Response to Duer 157099 (Reply #5)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:18 PM

16. +111111

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Response to Duer 157099 (Reply #5)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:36 PM

48. The drugs are being given in lieu of more costly counseling and hospitalization.

They remove the human factor, the chance the person has to work out their feelings with another human being. This has been a growing problem since Reagan, and then the GOP cut mental health funding to the bone. They equate the illnesses with sin and moral lapses and we have not been able to get parity in coverage since the 1990s. A slew of alleged doctors on talk radio have demonized the mental health profession to the point that it's seen as a scam or liberal mind control.

Tossing out people and replacing them with pills enriches big pharma and dehumanizes the process. They've impoverished the professionals who want to help in exchange for the quick fix. Very little humanity is being shown when a person is packed off with a bottle of pills as the only solution they will be offered.

It's a more sophisticated way of saying 'shut up' so we also see others will self-medicate with alcohol and street drugs. It doesn't help in the long run and substitutes substance for a solution.

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Response to freshwest (Reply #48)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:42 PM

61. Completely agree n/t

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Response to Duer 157099 (Reply #5)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:39 PM

56. Agree 100%. Bring back the human side of the equation.

People need other people to helop them. Pills may help, but they are no substitute for human beings interacting with each other.

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Response to Duer 157099 (Reply #5)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:31 PM

124. +++1 Careful now, there's NO way, Pharma isn't lurking this issue. & You've just proposed revolution

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:11 PM

6. I blame these shooting on mercury in vaccines...

...or maybe these kids are so disillusioned when they find out the moon landing was faked they go on a rampage.

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Response to cthulu2016 (Reply #6)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:59 PM

79. you are completely ignoring the possibility of alien possession

 

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Response to cthulu2016 (Reply #6)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:01 PM

86. By any name, still a one-trick pony. nt

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:12 PM

7. Even factoring that possibliity in, the numerous

acts of gun violence in this nation cannot all be attributed to medication side effects. There are still way too many guns in our society and there is no reason under the sun why anyone who isn't in the military should possess a military grade weapon.

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:12 PM

9. Millions take anti depressants including myself and don't

kill people. I think that needs to be said since your list seems to be making the case that meds caused the shootings.

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Response to upaloopa (Reply #9)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:18 PM

17. If you take'em, they're the cause, and if you don't take 'em, they're the cause...

the withdrawal hypothesis is perfect for crackpot non-science. These folks say the drugs cause anything bad people do on them, and that if people stop taking them then anything they do the following year is due to withdrawal!

So every bad thing done by almost any person who has seen a psychiatrist for anything serious is caused by the treatment... which begs the question how the person got in the psychiatrist's office in the first place. Wrong turn, probably.

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Response to cthulu2016 (Reply #17)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:42 PM

60. Exactly. They were in mental health care and its the cause (meds), or they weren't and its the cause

The only commonality in ALL of those scenarios is the GUNS!!

Its as though everyone wants to ignore the elephant in the room and NOT see that whatever other mitigating factors may have precipitated the violence, the access to guns means a slaughter.

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Response to upaloopa (Reply #9)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:18 PM

18. Millions have guns and never shoot anybody but yet

the board is full of blaming all gun owners and guns for the shootings.

Anti-depressants affect people in different ways especially people of different ages.

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Response to upaloopa (Reply #9)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:19 PM

19. Of course, it only has these negative consequences in a small percentage of the population

 

But this drug in particular has a crazy history, and our FDA is not looking out for us...

Fanapt: the rise and fall of an antipsychotic


Fanapt is born

Cooked up in the labs of Novartis Pharmaceuticals, Fanapt was intended as a replacement for Clozaril, a true blockbuster with, unfortunately, an expired patent. That meant Clozaril could be sold cheaply, generically, and Novartis could no longer command the high prices they had come to count on. Enter Fanapt.

Fanapt is dumped

During the development process, Novartis ran into problems. Whatever they found, it wasn’t good, because they basically tossed Fanapt into the garbage.

But another pharmaceutical company, Vanda, snatched it up and ran with it - all the way to the FDA.

Vanda goes to the FDA - and loses

In July 2008, the FDA issued a “not approvable” letter on the new drug. (In other words: no dice, Vanda.)


Vanda ignores the FDA - and wins

Vanda did none of those things. Instead, in November, they simply resubmitted the drug to the FDA, using leftover data from the original clinical trials.

It was such a jaw-dropping long shot that Vanda’s investors couldn’t get rid of stock fast enough. Stock prices fell below $1, and the company’s worth plummeted to less than cash on hand. At Vanda, there were layoffs and cutbacks, followed by a proxy fight trying to force Vanda to shut down, sell off its assets, and give any remaining money back to the shareholders.

Then, on May 6, 2009, stock analyst Adam Feuerstein observed something strange: “Hell froze over Wednesday night, right before a squadron of flying pigs took to the sky.”

For reasons only clear to the FDA, the new schizophrenia drug had been approved.

...

http://www.examiner.com/article/fanapt-the-rise-and-fall-of-an-antipsychotic

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Response to No Compromise (Reply #19)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:13 PM

106. I'm sure it had something to do with $$$$. nt

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Response to upaloopa (Reply #9)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:21 PM

25. My 88-yr-old mother has smoked since 25, and doesn't have lung cancer. WHAT'S YOUR IRRELEVANT POINT?

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:12 PM

10. Sadly, when it comes to treating mental illness, the doctors often don't know what they're doing.

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:13 PM

11. From drugs.com: psychiatric side effects of fanapt.

Psychiatric side effects including restlessness, aggression, and delusion have been reported frequently. Hostility, decreased libido, paranoia, anorgasmia, confusional state, mania, catatonia, mood swings, panic attack, obsessive-compulsive disorder, bulimia nervosa, delirium, polydipsia psychogenic, impulse-control disorder, and major depression have been reported infrequently

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Response to s-cubed (Reply #11)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:16 PM

15. The treament sounds worse than whatever would be treated by this drug. nt

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Response to s-cubed (Reply #11)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:20 PM

21. That particular drug seems to have a shady if not corrupt history.

From a post by Catherina.



http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2009948Fanapt: the rise and fall of an antipsychotic


Fanapt is born

Cooked up in the labs of Novartis Pharmaceuticals, Fanapt was intended as a replacement for Clozaril, a true blockbuster with, unfortunately, an expired patent. That meant Clozaril could be sold cheaply, generically, and Novartis could no longer command the high prices they had come to count on. Enter Fanapt.

Fanapt is dumped

During the development process, Novartis ran into problems. Whatever they found, it wasn’t good, because they basically tossed Fanapt into the garbage.

But another pharmaceutical company, Vanda, snatched it up and ran with it - all the way to the FDA.

Vanda goes to the FDA - and loses

In July 2008, the FDA issued a “not approvable” letter on the new drug. (In other words: no dice, Vanda.)


Vanda ignores the FDA - and wins

Vanda did none of those things. Instead, in November, they simply resubmitted the drug to the FDA, using leftover data from the original clinical trials.

It was such a jaw-dropping long shot that Vanda’s investors couldn’t get rid of stock fast enough. Stock prices fell below $1, and the company’s worth plummeted to less than cash on hand. At Vanda, there were layoffs and cutbacks, followed by a proxy fight trying to force Vanda to shut down, sell off its assets, and give any remaining money back to the shareholders.

Then, on May 6, 2009, stock analyst Adam Feuerstein observed something strange: “Hell froze over Wednesday night, right before a squadron of flying pigs took to the sky.”

For reasons only clear to the FDA, the new schizophrenia drug had been approved.



More on link.

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Response to Uncle Joe (Reply #21)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:01 PM

89. I will be waiting to hear from the first MSM source to develop this angle...and waiting no doubt

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Response to Uncle Joe (Reply #21)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:12 PM

104. The FDA works for the good...lNOT!!!!!

Good lord......are there any organizations that are looking out for the citizens?

We need to follow the approval of this drug...

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:21 PM

24. Yeah, right, it's the drugs, it's the illness, IT'S NEVER THE GUNS.

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Response to TwilightGardener (Reply #24)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:22 PM

26. Nobody is saying that. But SSRI drugs + side effects + guns can = homicide/suicide.

There is PLENTY of literature on this.

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Response to WinkyDink (Reply #26)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:32 PM

40. Actually, that is what this poster is saying. Gun control as "red herring".

Keep the gun away from someone who has not proven mentally or emotionally fit to own it first. Then examine all other factors that may lead to violence. That is my position.

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Response to TwilightGardener (Reply #40)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:52 PM

70. some people have guns and don't behave this way, so normally we look at cause and effect

 

Normal scientific course of examination would have people ask 'what was different'

If we find what was different, we look at it as a causal factor.

If these drugs are triggering psychotic episodes that result in mass murder, I believe we all deserve an answer on this!!


It is slightly over reactive to fly off the handle as some are and say now no one can have guns. The gun did not act alone.

If a mind can be warped enough to kill dozens of innocent children, a gun is not the only way to do it.

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Response to No Compromise (Reply #70)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:59 PM

81. Actually, I'm perfectly fine with "no one can have guns" as a first

resort. I'm being charitable when I espouse tighter restrictions rather than complete repeal of the 2nd.

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Response to No Compromise (Reply #70)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:20 PM

112. "some people have guns and don't behave this way." Right. Like Mrs. Lanza. She was a responsible

gun owner. And then her son took her responsible guns and shot up a grade school.

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Response to TwilightGardener (Reply #24)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:45 PM

64. +1000. The gunners truly don't want to examine THAT nexus

Saying its their "right" or "hobby".

Why does unfettered access to the weapons of their "hobby" get precedence over someone's life? We already know there's a dangerous intersection here but the gunners refuse to accede ANY bit.

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Response to riderinthestorm (Reply #64)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:57 PM

76. Yes--completely agree.

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Response to TwilightGardener (Reply #24)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:46 PM

138. Yes, well. Haven't you heard? Guns are a red herring. Says this brand new poster. Who is

spreading an unsubstantiated internet rumor...

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:22 PM

27. The drugs are very bad.

Personal experience following the loss of my son was put on effexor, shaved my head on impulse, would become violently angry for no reason, felt like lightning was going off in my head, never again, none of them.

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Response to Puzzledtraveller (Reply #27)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:36 PM

47. Paxil ended the drugs for my bi-polar daughter

Don't remember what she was taking before, but her doctor put her on the PAXIL. She started hallucinating, bad dreams, couldn't go to work, slept all the time, and even gained 50 lbs.

She went back to the doctor asking for meds to be changed. The doctor REFUSED. INSISTED on the Paxil. My daughter walked out of that office, threw the Paxil down the toilet, and hasn't taken ANY meds for the last 7 years.

She went back down to 125 lbs, and as she said, learned to CRY into her pillow when LIFE, and life has thrown her a lot of curves, happened. You know, come to think of it, I don't remember her EVER having a good cry when she was growing up.

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Response to HockeyMom (Reply #47)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:11 PM

103. I'm bipolar. I was on Paxil.

Unbelievable side effects.

I was so wired I ground my teeth down to nubs.

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Response to HockeyMom (Reply #47)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 05:32 PM

185. she was lucky

I have a friend who's been hung up on them for over a decade. She goes on and off different anti-depressants and the period of adjustment to a new one is hell. I don't know why her doctors don't try to get her off them.

Here's the way I feel about anti-depressants--they can be useful for a few months to help get over a bad period of depression or grief. But then the talk therapy should address going drug free and learning how to get past psychic pain and down feelings without drugs. There are some cases where this is not possible but I believe those are relatively few.

I do not feel this way about other mental problems or psychoses at all, where pharmaceuticals can be a huge benefit. Only when depression is the main issue and anti-depressants have been prescribed. I think this should be considered a short-term solution.

Beyond the serious side effects in the case under discussion, people who have been on them for a long time can lose a sense of perspective and sometimes do not exhibit normal emotional responses. They become less capable of feeling empathy for others.

for your daughter.

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:23 PM

28. Bingo. He killed 26 people with a barrage of Fanapt

We should at least put a ban on rapid-fire pill dispensers.

Look, I'm aware that some psychiatric drugs have side-effects so alarming that they should just be called "effects." But any notion that guns are a "red herring" here is a pure product of Gun Corp, an even more toxic interest than Big Pharma.

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:23 PM

29. FINALLY.

Thank you for this.

What is long term exposure to these attention/mood/anti-depressant/drugs doing to our children?

Are we creating a generation of Manchurian Candidate zombies, unable to feel when they're on the meds, and unable to deal with real emotions when they're off the meds?

My fear is, yes, we are.

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Response to Myrina (Reply #29)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:37 PM

51. I've been on and off anti-depressants since I was 15

I've never killed anyone--tried to kill myself a couple of times but never outwardly violent because that's not the kind of depression I suffer from. When I went off Zoloft about 6 years ago, I had a weird tingly feeling for about 2 months and slightly lethargic but not much else. I just recently went back on anti-depressants because I was having a difficult time mustering the energy to do anything...like leave the house.

My point isn't that meds don't harm kids but I think misdiagnosis does. If you give a kid (or an adult) a drug they don't need or for something they don't have, that can be problematic. And not all meds work for all people. When I first went on anti-depressants, it took a few tries to get one that worked for my body chemistry coupled with counseling.

I think this Adam Lanza fella was more than depressed. He was probably psychotic, which is wholly different than depression. If he was being treated for depression but not psychosis, then no wonder the medication wasn't helpful, even possibly harmful because his underlying condition wasn't being treated at all. That'd be like putting me on vitamins when I'm going through a suicidal episode... not helpful at all and wouldn't be surprising if I attempted to kill myself.

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Response to justiceischeap (Reply #51)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:45 PM

65. I've been on WellButrin for 6 years ...

... first few months I *was* a zombie. Felt like I was sleepwalking.
They pulled the dosage back and with counseling I worked thru (most of) my depression.
It still sneaks up on me, especially at this time of year, though.

My GYN and I were talking about pre-menopausal/PMS rage that's setting in and without a second glance, he said he could RX me an anti-depressant (even though I'd already told him about the Wellbutrin) and when I declined, he RX'd me Xanax. Here, crazy lady, have another pill.

My point is that long term use/abuse of drugs like cocaine, crack & meth cause measurable personality changes ... what's to say that the meds we're feeding our kids in order to make them 'manageable' aren't going to do the same thing down the road?

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Response to Myrina (Reply #65)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:48 PM

68. Well, there's the problem.

And kind of what I touched on. You said feeding meds to kids to keep them "manageable." That means to me, those kids don't require the meds. When you give people the wrong meds or meds they don't need, of course it's going to cause problems.

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:25 PM

33. conspiracy woo bullshit. Clue: it was guns that killed those kids.

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:28 PM

35. Thank you for posting this.

I'm sharing it.

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:29 PM

37. His mother had a responsibility to have the firearms locked up.

 

A modest gun cabinet can be purchased for $140 and can be carried home in a car with fold down back seats (Corolla). They take reasonable effort, tools and skill to break into. (No safe is completly safe.) Bolt it to the wall/floor from the inside and it's very difficult to steal it.

Trigger locks are cheap pieces of crap. My dog could chew through some of them and some guns can even be loaded and fired with them in.

Gun cabinets have ample room for putting other things in as well, say birthday and Christmas presents. Valuable fly rods.

Any parent with a teen has a potential problem. Hormones, PMS, grades, rejection, bullying. Sooner or later some kids may even experiment with recreational drugs. Kids also have friends over, a total wild card situation. I was not a perfect kid, I don't expect my kids to be. In fact I expect there to be problems.

This is why I keep my firearms in a gun cabinet and the keys are with me when I go to work. My kids are 18 and 20 now. They've shot with me for years but have never had unsupervised access to their firearms or mine.

I'd bet the mother of this kid just kept them in a case in the closet.

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Response to Remmah2 (Reply #37)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:05 PM

93. and if not possible to protect them from him 100%, obligation to REMOVE FROM THE HOUSE.

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Response to Remmah2 (Reply #37)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:58 PM

146. YES !

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:32 PM

41. Most of the time insurance companies won't cover therapy

unless you are taking antidepressants

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Response to AlphaCentauri (Reply #41)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:06 PM

96. Don't know about 'most of the time.'

BC/BS, in Federal Employees Health Benefits plan, DOES cover therapy, with or without meds.

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Response to elleng (Reply #96)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:13 PM

105. employees in the private sector

under health net may see a different story

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Response to AlphaCentauri (Reply #41)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 04:09 PM

149. Mom was a public school teacher.

 

The public school districts I'm familiar with have decently modest health care including mental health. +1 teachers unions.

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:32 PM

43. Your tinfoil hat's on too tight.

Enough digressions. We were talking about insanely easy access to firearms with ridiculous firepower...

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #43)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:55 PM

73. what is being talked about is when insanely easy access to firearms

 

is coupled with drugs the US Gov says the following about:

"Both clinical trial and pharmacovigilance data point to possible links between these drugs and violent behaviours"

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1564177/

...In 1998, a new family doctor, unaware of this adverse reaction to fluoxetine, prescribed paroxetine 20 mg to DS, for what was diagnosed as an anxiety disorder. Two days later having had, it is believed, two doses of medication, DS using a gun put three bullets each through the heads of his wife, his daughter who was visiting, and his nine-month-old granddaughter before killing himself.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022008133

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Response to green for victory (Reply #73)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 05:53 PM

190. using a gun

that is the common trend here, effects of medications are being wildly thrown about, mentions of "Mental illness" are being mentioned all the time with zero definition, but the one common thread is with a gun.

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:34 PM

46. kr

 

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:38 PM

52. An emotionally unstable person pulled that trigger.

An angry boy. Someone who WAS normal at one point in his life. But someone who didn't get what all humans need.

There is very little that we need to read into this. The causes are economic inequality, parents who don't cherish their child, modern society gone wild, and a bunch of all things which amount to children growing up in a shit world.

It could be avoided, even under the dire circumstances that we call "life" as we know it now.

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:39 PM

54. Top Ten Legal Drugs Linked to Violence

 

10. Desvenlafaxine (Pristiq) An antidepressant which affects both serotonin and noradrenaline, this drug is 7.9 times more likely to be associated with violence than other drugs.

9. Venlafaxine (Effexor) A drug related to Pristiq in the same class of antidepressants, both are also used to treat anxiety disorders. Effexor is 8.3 times more likely than other drugs to be related to violent behavior. (More on Time.com: Adderall May Not Make You Smarter, But It Makes You Think You Are)

8. Fluvoxamine (Luvox) An antidepressant that affects serotonin (SSRI), Luvox is 8.4 times more likely than other medications to be linked with violence

7. Triazolam (Halcion) A benzodiazepine which can be addictive, used to treat insomnia. Halcion is 8.7 times more likely to be linked with violence than other drugs, according to the study.

6) Atomoxetine (Strattera) Used to treat attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD), Strattera affects the neurotransmitter noradrenaline and is 9 times more likely to be linked with violence compared to the average medication.

5) Mefoquine (Lariam) A treatment for malaria, Lariam has long been linked with reports of bizarre behavior. It is 9.5 times more likely to be linked with violence than other drugs.

4) Amphetamines: (Various) Amphetamines are used to treat ADHD and affect the brain’s dopamine and noradrenaline systems. They are 9.6 times more likely to be linked to violence, compared to other drugs.

3) Paroxetine (Paxil) An SSRI antidepressant, Paxil is also linked with more severe withdrawal symptoms and a greater risk of birth defects compared to other medications in that class. It is 10.3 times more likely to be linked with violence compared to other drugs. (More on Time.com: Healthland’s Guide to Life 2011)

2) Fluoxetine (Prozac) The first well-known SSRI antidepressant, Prozac is 10.9 times more likely to be linked with violence in comparison with other medications.

1) Varenicline (Chantix) The anti-smoking medication Chantix affects the nicotinic acetylcholine receptor, which helps reduce craving for smoking. Unfortunately, it’s 18 times more likely to be linked with violence compared to other drugs — by comparison, that number for Xyban is 3.9 and just 1.9 for nicotine replacement. Because Chantix is slightly superior in terms of quit rates in comparison to other drugs, it shouldn’t necessarily be ruled out as an option for those trying to quit, however.

http://healthland.time.com/2011/01/07/top-ten-legal-drugs-linked-to-violence/

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Response to No Compromise (Reply #54)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:02 PM

91. You missed one - ALCOHOL!

Nevertheless, untreated psychosis is linked to violence as well, is it not? SSRIs and SNRIs have had black box warnings for young people for years. For example, here is the warning on Pristiq:

"Antidepressants increased the risk of suicidal thinking and behavior in children, teens, and young adults. Depression and certain other psychiatric disorders are themselves associated with increases in the risk of suicide. Patients of all ages who are started on antidepressant therapy or when the dose is changed should be monitored appropriately and observed closely for clinical worsening, suicidality, or unusual changes in behavior such as becoming agitated, irritable, hostile, aggressive, impulsive or restless. Should these occur, report them to a doctor right away. PRISTIQ is not approved for use in children under 18."

Anyone who is taking psychoactive medication should be monitored and ideally, also getting therapy, but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't take the medication at all. The right medication can make a huge difference. There are people with depression like me that can lead productive lives with the help of medication and therapy. The same can be said for schizophrenics.

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:41 PM

59. How many meds do you see advertised daily on TV which list "suicidal thoughts and actions"

 

as known side-effects? How is this okay? Is that really better than whatever problem the drug is intended to medicate? Some of the side-effects of anti-depressants are so depressing in their long, long list that it's depressing in and of itself. Fuck big pharma.

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Reply #59)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:53 PM

71. my friend wanted to kill herself on Cipro

I take NO drugs


http://doublecheckmd.com/DrugDetail.do?dname=Fanapt&sid=164543&view=e

side effects of Fanapt - aggressive , violent behavior (frequent), Delusions

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #71)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:15 PM

108. We definitely need to go "level up" on big pharma, especially where people's and others' lives are

 

in danger

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Reply #59)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 05:56 PM

192. they also mention to see a doctor is you have them

And yes, the side effects can be better than not taking the drug. All over the counter drugs should be taken under doctor supervision (heck, all drugs should be taken with supervision) Yes, we need to reign in the drug companies, but they do actually serve a purpose when used properly.

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:55 PM

72. So fucking what?

Without those guns he could not have killed 26 people in 5 minutes.

Christ on a crutch. Enough with the straw man shit.

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Response to Zoeisright (Reply #72)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:02 PM

90. You seem to be angry that some want to discuss this

 

Why is that?

NIH.GOV Wants to discuss it too:

"The new issues highlighted by these cases need urgent examination jointly by jurists and psychiatrists in all countries where antidepressants are widely used. The problem is international, and it would make sense to organise an international effort now."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1564177/

Are they building straw men?

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:57 PM

74. I'd be dead without anti-depressants

So would many other people. They are dangerous because they are powerful -- only powerful medication can have this kind of effect. Anti-depressants have positive reasons for being -- assault weapons don't. If we get rid of the guns that are made to kill lots of people, everything will be okay.

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:57 PM

77. holy crap

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:00 PM

82. Once again, if guns were not

so easily obtained, the shooting would not have occurred.

Period.

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Response to SheilaT (Reply #82)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:01 PM

87. Agreed.

n/t

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:06 PM

95. The media has gotten so much wrong with this story.

I wouldn't put much stock in this report. For example, the New York Daily News report that supposedly cites Adam's uncle as saying he was on Fanapt, makes NO mention of his Uncle or Fanapt.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/nancy-lanza-feared-son-adam-worse-article-1.1221505

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Response to GeorgeGist (Reply #95)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:10 PM

100. Right and not unusual,

as the story is 'new,' and all the 'facts' will take a long time to come out.

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:06 PM

97. You drug up kids at a young age, take away their recess and play time, give them violent video games

and movies, squash any attempts at creativity and proper socialization, and what do you get?

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:07 PM

98. How much of it is the disease, and how much a reaction to the medication or withdrawal from them?

Hard to say, except that people who are that ill are usually medicated these days. So, the correlation between mental illness and antidepressant use is high, which creates the impression that the link is between the meds and the psychotic behavior, including violence. But, that may be a false correlation.

No doubt, that three-way relationship is real, but something that is inadequately understood by the general public.

Interesting post. Thanks.

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:15 PM

109. Doesn't make gun control a "red herring."

If he had used a knife there would not be 28 dead that is pretty certain.

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Response to yellowcanine (Reply #109)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:24 PM

117. And his mother may have survived to help other mothers learn what to do & what NOT to do.

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:17 PM

110. PHARMA speaking, "No need to change parenting/school/community/culture, just take the right pill!"

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:22 PM

115. I have been on 4 different anti depressants since I was 20.

I have suffered from depression since I was a teen. I would say the fact that one is depressed or psychotic is more of the cause, not the meds. I do know that the meds can have different effects on teens but Adam Lanza was already 20.

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Response to Jennicut (Reply #115)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:37 PM

132. "Paradoxical Effects" on some people with Anti-Depressents......

(I'm a person who has had paradoxical effects from drugs. I don't like to fly and am prone to panic attacks so I got a prescription for one of the Benzodiazepine drugs. I took a pill and freaked out heading to the airport with a panic attack along with violent shaking. It was a good thing I wasn't driving. I never took another pill and stopped flying becauseit freaked me out so bad. Many years later I had an minor operation but became so agitated in the recovery room they had to hold me down because part of the the anesthesia had some derivative of a benzodiazepine in it and caused me to have a reaction. The hospital actually refunded me the money for my anethesia on my bill because I had put on my Patient information chart that I was allergic to Benzodiazepines and someone didn't check when they gave me the particular anesthesia that they did.

So this can happen. Plus both my daughter and I can't take Benedryl for colds or allergy. We both freak out instead of becoming drowsy. No one else in our family has that contrarian reaction. I found out about it when she was little and screamed all night when she was prescribed it for a mild ear ache...and years later I took it for a sinus infection (not thinking that my daughter had a former reaction) and became horribly agitated with palpitations and cold sweats.

----------------



Paradoxical reaction
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

A paradoxical reaction or paradoxical effect is an effect of medical treatment, usually a drug, opposite to the effect which would normally be expected.

An example of a paradoxical reaction is when a pain relief medication causes an increase in pain. Some sedatives prescribed for adults actually cause hyperactivity in children.

For example, there are serious complications occurring in conjunction with the use of sedatives creating a series of effects in some people, that are the total opposite of those expected. The paradoxical reactions may consist of depression, with or without suicidal tendencies, phobias, aggressiveness, violent behavior and symptoms sometimes misdiagnosed as psychosis.

ONE EXAMPLE:
Benzodiazepines

Benzodiazepines, a class of psychoactive drugs called the "minor" tranquilizers, have varying hypnotic, sedative, anxiolytic, anticonvulsant, and muscle relaxing properties, but they may create the exact opposite effects. Susceptible individuals may respond to benzodiazepine treatment with an increase in anxiety, aggressiveness, agitation, confusion, disinhibition, loss of impulse control, talkativeness, violent behavior, and even convulsions. Paradoxical adverse effects may even lead to criminal behaviour. Severe behavioral changes resulting from benzodiazepines have been reported including mania, schizophrenia, anger, impulsivity, and hypomania. Self aggression has been reported and also demonstrated in laboratory conditions in a clinical study. Diazepam was found to increase people's willingness to harm themselves. Paradoxical effects of benzodiazepines appear to be dose related, that is, likelier to occur with higher doses. In a letter to the British Medical Journal, it was reported that a high proportion of parents referred for actual or threatened child abuse were taking drugs at the time, often a combination of benzodiazepines and tricyclic antidepressants. Many mothers described that instead of feeling less anxious or depressed, they became more hostile and openly aggressive towards the child as well as to other family members while consuming tranquilizers. The author warned that environmental or social stresses such as difficulty coping with a crying baby combined with the effects of tranquilizers may precipitate a child abuse event. Benzodiazepines can sometimes cause a paradoxical worsening of EEG readings in patients with seizure disorders. Paradoxical rage reactions due to benzodiazepines occur as a result of an altered level of consciousness, which generates automatic behaviors, anterograde amnesia and uninhibited aggression. These aggressive reactions may be caused by a disinhibiting serotonergic mechanism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradoxical_reaction

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:26 PM

120. SSRI-Induced Psychosis...

Is an indicator for me that a more serious mood disorder was what was actually at play - and for a Bipolar type I or II, the absolute worst thing you can do is treat them with anti-depressant alone, especially SSRIs. A lot of bipolar sufferers are initially misdiagnosed, especially if their is severe depression involved. Case in point: I was prescribed Zoloft by a doctor when I was 19 for depression. Had my first mixed-episode, which is pretty much hell on earth. It induced my first psychotic break and extreme suicidality, (an increase in intensity from before, as in compulsive thoughts telling me to do so).

First of all, I don't believe general practicioners should be able to describe any type of psych medications, an also that any doctor or psychologist thoroughly investigate past and family history, since with most conditions like this it's a trial and error thing. Unfortunately this can have deadly side effects

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:27 PM

121. Your OP would be more credible if you didn't say gun control is a red herring.

Maybe people would read your OP with a more open mind if you didn't try to make it an either-or thing.

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:28 PM

122. Please note: News reports talking about Fanapt have been withdrawn; 'uncle' may be bogus

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #122)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:43 PM

134. Thanks for that....although it's likely he was either on some med or had gone off one

recently. Hopefully we will find out...

It doesn't in any way excuse his access to guns and what he did, but the full picture is worth knowing because if he was on a med that could have caused a reaction because of his particular physical make up or even if he had stopped taking a med and the withdrawl caused him to freak out...it important for people to know that these events can happen with medications that may have different effects on those who have to take them and if they have access to weapons in a manic freak out then it's possible they will harm other or themselves.

We need to do more work on drug intereractions and how they differ with peoples individual chemistry make up.

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Response to KoKo (Reply #134)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 06:57 PM

207. yes, one size does not fit all.

 


Do the people who are so angry about this discussion really want to stop this problem?

We need to be open minded to all possibilities.

We are liberals, remember?

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #122)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:44 PM

135. Ah, the Daily News. Such a fortress of quality journalism.

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:31 PM

123. Yes they are red herrings. All of them.

A response to your red herring crap.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2010604

People with no access to guns, regardless of how insane or drugged up or what degree of Asperger's, have NEVER shot a single person. Not once.

N.O.T. E.V.E.R.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #123)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 04:51 PM

166. +1. They are all red herrings. No access to guns means nobody gets shut up. Ever.

Regardless of their mental health condition, the drugs they are on (or are not on), if they "snap", their abuse history - nada - none of it matters.

The guns are the problem. We must do something about gun control in this country.

Mental health care needs desperate attention too and that's also a conversation that needs to happen but linking them is the wrong thing right now imho.



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Response to riderinthestorm (Reply #166)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 05:02 PM

169. Absolutely!

Is there anyone denying that mental health care (cripes, ALL kinds of health care for the 99%) isn't crap in the USA?

No one I know of, other that the 1% and their sycophants and lapdogs.

But since the bastards aren't in much of a hurry to fix that, then they are going to have to keep the freakin' guns away from the lunatics and if that means the not-quite-so-lunantics also, so be it.

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:31 PM

125. This what they

 

Wanted so they can disarm the public. Librium and valium never caused anything other than suicide. Not mass killings. They don't want to see the truth. Only a gun ban. Not a fix of the problem. Only a gun ban. Not the real cause. Only a gun ban.

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:34 PM

130. Two thoughts

Two thoughts when I read this -
1) Absurdly simple access to this kind of firepower, and a deeply rooted gun culture in this country, seem to me to be much bigger problems.
2) The fact that all these examples you give involve taking drugs for, or getting off of drugs for, mental illness. Could the link be more to the mental illness than the drugs?

And I am absolutely not saying that anything but a very small minority of those with mental illness are prone to violence. But if you're finding a common thread here, maybe it's the conditions they were being treated for?

It seems that I am often straddling the fence when I talk about mental illness and prescription drugs. On the one hand, they are over-prescribed, when therapy or lifestyle changes are more in order. On the other, they are under-prescribed when people who could benefit aren't diagnosed or are discouraged from following that path. On the one hand, these drugs have some uncommon, but very real, side effects in some people. On the other, they have saved countless lives.

I can only speak from my own experience. Until I took an antidepressant 17 years ago, my life was a mess. Agoraphobia, panic attacks, chronic melancholy, kept me from even starting to fulfill my potential. Until I was more specifically and directly diagnosed with ADD 10 years ago (in my late 40s!), I was an underachiever who couldn't finish a damned thing. I now have a very sympathetic psychiatrist to manage my meds, who never pushed meds on me, and works with me to find effective help with as few side effects as possible. And she encourages those other things that can help us so much - exercise, meditation, therapy. But without daily Adderall, I am pretty near useless; with it, I can actually function in this world. Do I worry about long-term effects on my dopamine system? Of course I do - but it's a matter of alternatives.

I worked with my doctor to go off of all psychiatric medication this past summer, just to see if I could do without. And I thought I was doing great. Until I wasn't. It became quite clear that I functioned much better, and was a far better human being, when being responsibly, adequately, medicated. I have never been violent, but my loved ones will tell you I am far easier to live with when adequately medicated.

Just because I have responded well to medication, and think it can help many people, doesn't mean I am a defender of so many aspects of Big Pharma. It's a bad system that sometime results in bad drugs, or useless drugs, and always involves obscene profits. But a lot of us simply need the medication, and reluctantly use the system, as horribly imperfect as it is.

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:37 PM

131. Hoooooold on a second.

How do you know he was taking this drug?



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Response to progressoid (Reply #131)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:44 PM

136. OP, "***IF*** this were the case, it would not be the first time...." (emphasis added). nt

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Response to patrice (Reply #136)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:50 PM

141. OP's title says "Adam was taking controversial drug FANAPT"

Even the Daily News has withdrawn that claim.

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Response to patrice (Reply #136)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:51 PM

143. IF it were guns that killed these children, THAT wouldn't be the first time either.

But, you know, guns are a red herring.

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:44 PM

137. Like saying insulin causes daibetic ketoacidosis since most people who get DKA take insulin.

Insulin is the treatment for DKA. And anti psychotics are the treatment for psychosis.

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:47 PM

139. Anyone prescribed these drugs should be put in the NICS registry.

 

We need to expand the people with mental issues who are included in NICS.

Right now you are only excluded if you have been adjudicated mentally incompetent or if you have been involuntarily committed to a mental institution.

I think if you are on any of these drugs you should also be put into NICS.

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Response to Atypical Liberal (Reply #139)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 04:25 PM

154. Bravo! Excellent post! Now we're talking about real solutions

 

If anyone knows someone taking SSRI's it might be a good thing to IMMEDIATELY get them away from guns- or get the guns away from them

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:47 PM

140. Thank you for your concern.

IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT MADE THEM DO IT.

WHAT MATTERS IS THAT THEY COULD ACCESS THE WEAPONS TO ACHIEVE IT.

Take that to the NRA and give them a big fat, sloppy kiss.

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Response to aquart (Reply #140)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 04:00 PM

147. The original poster says:

"It is slightly over reactive to fly off the handle as some are and say now no one can have guns. The gun did not act alone."

This after he calls guns "a red herring" in the shooting deaths of twenty 6-year-olds. And he quotes an unsubstantiated internet rumor designed to deflect outrage to big pharma. On his 20th post.

Do I smell troll?

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:51 PM

142. So who is

 

the name of this uncle? Somebody also claimed that she had an uncle that was a retired policeman in New York. He supposedly taught her to shoot. That was one of those rumors, that I heard but don't know how true that is. I did hear today though on MS NBC, that she didn't get those guns until a couple years ago. That would be about the approximate time frame she divorced her husband wouldn't it be? She does seem like the Ann Romney type, that depends on a strong man. I'm just wondering why she got so interested in those guns all of a sudden? And her husband did leave her well off apparently to seek a highly paid doctor. He makes over a million dollars. She could have gotten more money for Adam. He was only twenty and not twenty one yet. Families as wealthy as that, usually get the services of the best psychiatrists too.

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:52 PM

144. BINGO! This is the true heart of the matter, not the guns, though instrumental, the issue is big

pharma and the devastating effects of these drugs that go forward because of big money. To hell with safeguards and proper testing for side effects, money trumps everything, including life itself.

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:58 PM

145. Is this drug widely prescribed only in the US?

Is this drug widely prescribed only in the US? If not, it then begs the question as to why last Friday's scenario is not consistently replayed in countries other than the US where the drug is prescribed, available, and used.

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 04:05 PM

148. Well, that's certainly an unimpeachable source.



http://ssristories.com/contact.html

We are sorry, but we almost never respond to any contacts from this site. The lady who maintained the site has passed away, and no one has picked up responsibility for responding to these messages. Thus, you may still contact us as described below, but do not expect a response. However, if you enter your email address and name, we will read every message.

If you would like to contact us, you may do so by using the form below. However, you need to be aware of the following:

We are not medical doctors, so we will not give medical advice.

We are always looking for additional SSRI stories, but they must be published in a publicly available form. We cannot post personal stories on this web site.


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Response to KamaAina (Reply #148)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 04:21 PM

152. each entry is sourced

 

This website is a collection of 4,800+ news stories with the full media article available, mainly criminal in nature, that have appeared in the media (newspapers, TV, scientific journals) or that were part of FDA testimony in either 1991, 2004 or 2006, in which antidepressants are mentioned.

Click on the blue 'What' to access a story. Click on a red column heading to sort the index by that column.

http://ssristories.com/index.php

why don't people want to talk about this?

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Response to green for victory (Reply #152)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 04:29 PM

156. Someone reaching a different conclusion is not indicative

"why don't people want to talk about this..."

Someone reaching a different conclusion is not indicative in any way that no one wants to talk about this topic... we'd simply like to have some valid, objective, peer-reviewed analysis rather than a series of diagnoses based on guesses by laymen.





As an aside, I am curious though: is this drug proscribed outside of the US, and if so, are occurrences such as Friday's Newtown shooting common in those countries?

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #156)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 05:27 PM

184. try this- the database at ssristories is sortable

 

http://ssristories.com/index.php?sort=where&p=

and if you click on the blue link on the left the original story should appear
(it has so far for me but since it's apparently not currently maintained some links may not work)

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 04:17 PM

151. To be clear: Autistics Have Empathy for Others.

They have a harder time reading others' emotions, but once they recognize the emotional state of another person, they are as capable of empathy as anyone.

Lack of empathy manifests in other psychiatric disorders, like psychopathy, not autism spectrum disorders.

Yeah, I think certain new drugs might cause suicidal and homicidal thoughts. I doubt the media has a clue about pharma's role in these kinds of events.

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Response to Ilsa (Reply #151)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 04:46 PM

162. you just explained it in a way I've never heard before

... that people with autism have a harder time reading others' emotions. It's easy to extrapolate that to mean that they have a harder time caring, but now I see the difference, and that explains the kids I know with Asperger's syndrome who are very sweet and pleasant to be around--once they were taught explicitly how other people emote, they were just as empathetic as anybody else.

Thank you for pointing out that really important difference.

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Response to renate (Reply #162)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 06:12 PM

200. You're welcome! My son has been getting training

using these rather expensive photography cards. All kinds of people, men, women, children, across numerous races and ages are photographed with various expressions, including fear, surprise, worry, anger, etc. Some of the emotions make my child very uncomfortable. He can empathize because lots of these kids are very sensitive to sensory inputs.

I compare the problem to being unable to understand a foreign language and having a hard time engaging because you don't understand the interactions around you.

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 04:21 PM

153. Constitutional rights of privacy mean that no one can get at the drug intake of gun owners.

It's that simple. Until there's a gun owner licensing requirement for gun owners to regularly report the drugs used in their immediate family circle, no amount of understanding the drug-gun connection will amount to anything. This also deflects from legitimate political efforts to tighten all gun owner background checks and gun use.

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 04:26 PM

155. So if this were true and not just thought of

by his uncle.. Wouldn't that denote, taking an "anti-psychotic drug" such as fanapt, that one is psychotic?

Psychosis is a symptom or feature of mental illness typically characterized by radical changes in personality, impaired functioning, and a distorted or nonexistent sense of objective reality.

http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/psychosis

Obviously in hindsight.. if she thought she was losing him it would have been helpful To Lose The Guns.

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Response to Cha (Reply #155)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 04:30 PM

159. There was no uncle.

The claims of an uncle and Fanapt have been scrubbed from the daily mail's website.

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Response to progressoid (Reply #159)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 04:49 PM

165. Thanks, progressoid

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Response to progressoid (Reply #159)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 05:07 PM

172. it is linked at the new york daily magazine which has not scrubbed anything

 

what are you talking about?

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Response to No Compromise (Reply #172)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 05:15 PM

177. Feel free to follow your link to the source. Then cut and paste your proof.

NYMag cites the Daily Mail. The Daily Mail has no reference to an Uncle or Fanapt.

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 04:52 PM

167. Thank you for a well-researched post, No Compromise, and WELCOME TO DU!!

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Response to loudsue (Reply #167)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 04:57 PM

168. It is not a well researched post.

There is no credible source that says that Adam Lanza was taking this drug.

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Response to loudsue (Reply #167)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 05:21 PM

181. Oh ffs...

really?

Sid

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 05:14 PM

176. I'm calling bullshit until you come up with a better source...

first, prove that the shooter was taking Fanapt.

Sid

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 05:17 PM

178. No credible sourcing for the claim about Lanza and the drug. This is tinfoil hat CT crap. n/t

 

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 05:18 PM

179. Psychotropic drugs + access to weapons of mass destruction...What could possibly go wrong?

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 05:22 PM

182. 26 people, mowed down in minutes, 3 to 11 wounds in each body...

illustrates to me that Gun Control is certainly no "Red Herring" in the media reporting nor in the explanations of exactly what enabled a massacre of this magnitude to occur.

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 05:34 PM

187. these drugs are being prescribed within the autism community/ parents are floundering

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 05:47 PM

189. Does it bother anyone else that this poster is on a first name basis

with the shooter? "Adam"? "Adam was taking..."?

Then too, the entire OP is evidently based on a report that has since been shown to be bogus.

Drugs or no drugs, mental illness or no mental illness, these children and their adult guardians would not have been shot dead had their not been a firearm available to the shooter.

So no, gun control is not "a red herring." It is at the very heart of this atrocity.

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Response to thucythucy (Reply #189)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 05:53 PM

191. It bothers me since the whole OP based on inacurate information.

Daily news deleted the whole "uncle" interview.

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 05:59 PM

193. NO HE WAS NOT. The article your link uses as its source does not have that on it.

Quit spreading false information. Please check the sources before posting such rumors.

Article that says he was (http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2012/12/aspergers-is-a-red-herring-to-explain-newtown.html) links their source as http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/nancy-lanza-feared-son-adam-worse-article-1.1221505 which has nothing about fanapt or an uncle.

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 06:51 PM

206. could he have killed all those children without his guns?

the guns and the ammunition are the problem.

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Response to No Compromise (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 07:38 PM

213. Locking

This does not fit the SoP of this Forum.

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