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Mon Dec 17, 2012, 12:42 PM

Motion to the Members of DU

I am making a motion, and for the record, let me say I am not whining about DU, and I apologize for violating the rule of no gun topics in the General Discussion. However, I am not violating it in spirit. I am making a motion that we ask the management to remove the topic forum for Guns. The arguments are obvious, but I think many of us feel that a NRA cheering room here at DU is massively inappropriate.

Therefor, I ask you to vote to either ask Management to keep, or remove the gun forum from this site. As is obvious, when Guns are in the news, usually followed by constantly increasing numbers of the dead, it falls into General Discussion, or Latest Breaking News anyway.
89 votes, 0 passes | Time left: Unlimited
I vote to ask Management to remove the Gun Forum from DU
30 (34%)
I vote to ask Management to keep the Gun Forum on DU
59 (66%)
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Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

99 replies, 4606 views

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Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 99 replies Author Time Post
Reply Motion to the Members of DU (Original post)
Savannahmann Dec 2012 OP
ChisolmTrailDem Dec 2012 #1
Lasher Dec 2012 #3
ChisolmTrailDem Dec 2012 #6
stevenleser Dec 2012 #13
ChisolmTrailDem Dec 2012 #29
stevenleser Dec 2012 #36
closeupready Dec 2012 #65
Little Star Dec 2012 #8
Earth_First Dec 2012 #2
HappyMe Dec 2012 #4
pipoman Dec 2012 #5
ChisolmTrailDem Dec 2012 #9
axetogrind Dec 2012 #14
ChisolmTrailDem Dec 2012 #22
axetogrind Dec 2012 #27
OffWithTheirHeads Dec 2012 #7
intheflow Dec 2012 #33
stevenleser Dec 2012 #10
Recursion Dec 2012 #28
stevenleser Dec 2012 #34
Recursion Dec 2012 #45
KamaAina Dec 2012 #38
datasuspect Dec 2012 #11
Savannahmann Dec 2012 #42
RomneyLies Dec 2012 #12
cynatnite Dec 2012 #15
Gregorian Dec 2012 #50
KamaAina Dec 2012 #16
Earth_First Dec 2012 #30
Savannahmann Dec 2012 #95
KamaAina Dec 2012 #96
Savannahmann Dec 2012 #98
KamaAina Dec 2012 #99
GermanSmoker Dec 2012 #17
JVS Dec 2012 #18
Jack Rabbit Dec 2012 #19
RomneyLies Dec 2012 #20
virginia mountainman Dec 2012 #21
Lizzie Poppet Dec 2012 #92
Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2012 #23
Earth_First Dec 2012 #26
DocMac Dec 2012 #84
axetogrind Dec 2012 #32
Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2012 #49
axetogrind Dec 2012 #53
intheflow Dec 2012 #40
Walk away Dec 2012 #55
intheflow Dec 2012 #57
Walk away Dec 2012 #64
intheflow Dec 2012 #71
Walk away Dec 2012 #91
intheflow Dec 2012 #89
davsand Dec 2012 #24
marlakay Dec 2012 #25
Still Sensible Dec 2012 #31
Marrah_G Dec 2012 #35
earthside Dec 2012 #37
FredStembottom Dec 2012 #39
intheflow Dec 2012 #41
actslikeacarrot Dec 2012 #43
SecularMotion Dec 2012 #44
NewMoonTherian Dec 2012 #51
Savannahmann Dec 2012 #56
SecularMotion Dec 2012 #60
NewMoonTherian Dec 2012 #63
SecularMotion Dec 2012 #66
NewMoonTherian Dec 2012 #67
SecularMotion Dec 2012 #68
lpbk2713 Dec 2012 #46
jody Dec 2012 #47
Savannahmann Dec 2012 #54
jody Dec 2012 #58
Savannahmann Dec 2012 #97
CreekDog Dec 2012 #88
Walk away Dec 2012 #48
LP2K12 Dec 2012 #52
peace13 Dec 2012 #59
Springslips Dec 2012 #61
RomneyLies Dec 2012 #62
PavePusher Dec 2012 #69
RomneyLies Dec 2012 #72
PavePusher Dec 2012 #74
RomneyLies Dec 2012 #78
PavePusher Dec 2012 #93
nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 #75
RomneyLies Dec 2012 #79
Earth_First Dec 2012 #70
nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 #73
abelenkpe Dec 2012 #77
nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 #85
HereSince1628 Dec 2012 #76
Rider3 Dec 2012 #80
graham4anything Dec 2012 #81
Little Star Dec 2012 #82
renie408 Dec 2012 #83
CreekDog Dec 2012 #86
sdfernando Dec 2012 #87
closeupready Dec 2012 #90
llmart Dec 2012 #94

Response to Savannahmann (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 12:43 PM

1. "no gun topics in the General Discussion"???

That's almost all that's been posted in GD since this tragedy happened. I think the no guns in GD rule was thrown out the window.

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Response to ChisolmTrailDem (Reply #1)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 12:46 PM

3. The rule has been suspended to promote discussion about the Newton School tragedy.

It has not been thrown out.

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Response to Lasher (Reply #3)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 12:48 PM

6. Yes it has been thrown out. It's not in effect, so it's thrown out.

Discussions of gun belong in the Gun Forum, not in GD.

That is the rule.

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Response to ChisolmTrailDem (Reply #6)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 12:53 PM

13. It is an admin rule, not a rule that is subject to member consensus. We can debate it all we want

but that debate is ultimately pointless. You can message skinner and earlg if you have an issue.

The admin point of view is that with the exception of major gun incidents, those discussions belong in the gungeon. When something like Newtown happens, they permit gun discussion in GD for a week or so.

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #13)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 01:01 PM

29. Thanks Steven.

So I guess we can count on gun threads ad infinitum as long it's in the context of Sandy Hook?

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Response to ChisolmTrailDem (Reply #29)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 01:05 PM

36. You're Welcome. It will last for a week or so.

Just when you think you cannot stand it any longer, Skinner and EarlG will reassert the rule.

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #36)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:08 PM

65. Can't come soon enough for me.

There is a time and place for things, and it's become excessive here, almost malingering. Certainly, lots of hysteria here.

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Response to ChisolmTrailDem (Reply #1)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 12:49 PM

8. The SOP for GD says no posts about guns unless there is really big news....

The Sandy Hook Elementary shooting was really big news thus allowing gun topics out of the gungeon for now.

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Response to Savannahmann (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 12:46 PM

2. The problem is, it *is* a part of the Party platform...

One, that I do not particularly ahere to or support; just a head's up to let you know what you are up against.

In this instance, if they want to have their gun porn; have it over at the gungeon, I want nothing to do with it in GD.

I vote to keep it over; just overe there...

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Response to Savannahmann (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 12:47 PM

4. I think it should be left.

Otherwise GD will turn into Gun Discussion permanently.

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Response to Savannahmann (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 12:48 PM

5. No debate, no consensus

Quieting debate is the antithesis of Democratic ideals..

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Response to pipoman (Reply #5)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 12:49 PM

9. Gun discussions belong in the Gun Forum. That is the rule. eom

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Response to ChisolmTrailDem (Reply #9)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 12:53 PM

14. But the OP said to get rid of the Guns Forum.

 

I don't go there but why stifle debate? Isn't debate, even contentious debate, good?

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Response to axetogrind (Reply #14)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 12:59 PM

22. Debate can happen in the Gun Forum (while it exists). But I've been schooled

that the rule doesn't really apply sometimes. So whatever.

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Response to ChisolmTrailDem (Reply #22)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 01:01 PM

27. I agree.

 

Gun debate should be in the proper place.
I just disagree that the Guns Forum should be removed.

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Response to Savannahmann (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 12:48 PM

7. Do we have to take the Grover Norquist "purity" pledge too?

I don't think ANYTHING should be banned from discussion. If you can't discuss things, you can't learn. I have no interest in turning DU into tea party left.

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Response to OffWithTheirHeads (Reply #7)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 01:04 PM

33. This. +1. n/t

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Response to Savannahmann (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 12:51 PM

10. I am not sure how I will vote and let me say why.

First, I think I was one of the first in Meta to say that I was going to vote to hide any pro-gun post I was called on to adjudicate as part of a jury, and would vote to keep any anti-gun post that did not also contain bigotry.

I do not want gun posts here. That is one part of how I feel about this.

The other part is that where there are dungeons, I understand the wisdom of the admins in having them. The gun dungeon and the woo woo dungeon, the Israel/Palestinian dungeon and any others I cant think of serve an important purpose. People will want to discuss these things, they get heated and overwhelming and generally the same things are said by folks on both sides over and over again such that the discussions become stale and repetitive and uninteresting very quickly.

I'm not sure how I will vote on this poll.

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #10)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 01:01 PM

28. Woo woo? (nt)

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Response to Recursion (Reply #28)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 01:04 PM

34. The Creative Speculation Forum. 'Woo woo' is a slang term for crazy talk

Creative Speculation Forum Here - http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1135

Woo Woo definition in urban dictionary - http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=woo+woo :


1. woo woo
183 up, 56 down

extraordinary beliefs for which it is felt there is insufficient extraordinary evidence, and people who hold those beliefs.

The date was going fine, then she started to talk about taking her cat to her Pet Psychic for an aura adjustment. Just a bit woo woo for me.

2. woo woo
231 up, 85 down

Unfounded or ludicrouse beliefs

Belief in talking to the dead, belief in telikenesis, in fact any belief not founded on good evidence, the poorer the evidence the more Woo Woo the belief.

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #34)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 01:21 PM

45. Oh, right. I knew its earlier incarnation

Didn't realize it had changed.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #28)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 01:06 PM

38. Conspiracy theory ("creative speculation"!)

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Response to Savannahmann (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 12:51 PM

11. motion?

 

you DO realize this an internet discussion board and not a legislative or deliberative body?

lighten up.

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Response to datasuspect (Reply #11)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 01:12 PM

42. Oh I understand.

However, I was both curious as to how the members would feel, how many would agree with me. Second, I wanted to approach Skinner with the consensus of opinion expressed here. As a request, not as a demand. I am in a position to demand nothing from this site. Even if I was, I doubt I would do it, because that just isn't my nature.

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Response to Savannahmann (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 12:52 PM

12. Kick n/t

 

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Response to Savannahmann (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 12:54 PM

15. Removing the forum solves nothing. n/t

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Response to cynatnite (Reply #15)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 01:27 PM

50. True.

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Response to Savannahmann (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 12:55 PM

16. Nice avvie

Stewie with... a gun?!

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Response to KamaAina (Reply #16)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 01:02 PM

30. +1

Veeerrry interesting...

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Response to KamaAina (Reply #16)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 08:47 PM

95. I love the show Family Guy

But choosing a charictor from it was tricky. I picked what I considered the least appropriate for me, call it tongue in cheek if you will. I've considered replacing it since the Sandy Hook massacre, but haven't. I don't like to change with the winds, but after taking time to consider the matter fully. I don't really identify with any charictor, with the possible exception of Meg. I'm not attractive, and I'm not popular. But I was loved and supported by my family, so that would be flawed to about the extreme.

So Stewie it was. Stewie with his dreams of global domination, and the only one he can speak to is other babies, and the dog Brian. He can build a time machine, but can't figure out how diapers work. I love the duality involved there. Silly certainly, but not indicitive of my feeling towards the actual harming of people.

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Response to Savannahmann (Reply #95)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 08:52 PM

96. I do, too

but there must be some pix of Stewie sans gun.

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Response to KamaAina (Reply #96)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 09:30 PM

98. So if I change my avatar, then can we discuss the issue?

I'm just wondering, because I can't figure out why it's an issue otherwise.

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Response to Savannahmann (Reply #98)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 10:19 PM

99. Fair enough. The Gungeon is far from "an NRA cheering room".

That's why it's the Gungeon, because without it, the gun nuts would be all over GD, and those of us whould risk getting banned if we responded to them intemperately.

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Response to Savannahmann (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 12:56 PM

17. Overreaction

Voted no.

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Response to Savannahmann (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 12:57 PM

18. I don't read the gungeon, but it is a useful quarantine measure for a topic that could be...

a constant source of GD flamewars that push other content out. Guns are in GD now, but that will subside in a few weeks.

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Response to Savannahmann (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 12:57 PM

19. Let's keep the gun forum

It's the attic for our lunatic uncle.

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Response to Savannahmann (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 12:58 PM

20. Voted to kill it. Cesspool that attracts RWNJs. n/t

 

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Response to Savannahmann (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 12:58 PM

21. If you cannot win the debate....simply ban the topic....

Very undemocratic...

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Response to virginia mountainman (Reply #21)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 05:45 PM

92. hit.nail.head

Looks like the Chicken Little faction is losing, though...

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Response to Savannahmann (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 12:59 PM

23. Somehow you've managed to bring out all the gun-loving freaks. lol nt

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #23)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 01:01 PM

26. :manical laugh:

a clearinghouse thread for the Ignore List feature...

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Response to Earth_First (Reply #26)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:48 PM

84. I thought the same thing.

Clicked "show names" and wasn't surprised. I'm gonna have to bookmark this thread.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #23)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 01:04 PM

32. We're gun loving freaks

 

because we have a difference of opinion? Respectfully, I disagree.
Debate, no matter how heated it may get, is good.

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Response to axetogrind (Reply #32)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 01:26 PM

49. And you're a POF member since yesterday? nt

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #49)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 01:31 PM

53. So what?

 

I'm not allowed to have an opinion different from yours? Have I been rude or hostile to anyone here?
I'm trying to have a meaningful debate and you come back with the hostility, perhaps we all need to tone it down and work towards workable solutions instead of the hate filled comments from both sides of this issue.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #23)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 01:09 PM

40. I'm not a gun-loving freak.

I don't own guns, have never shot a gun. But I don't believe shutting down the gungeon will solve gun debates on DU or help move the country toward more regulated gun ownership. Censorship is rarely the answer - unless it's an obvious troll. Owning a gun or supporting gun rights does not an automatic troll make. Just as protesting war or wanting single payer healthcare doesn't automatically make someone a socialist or communist. None of these discussions are black and white, life comes in many shades of gray.

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Response to intheflow (Reply #40)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 01:36 PM

55. Have you ever spent any time in the gungeon? 90% of it's posts are extreme NRA...

talking point bulletins or gloating about people shooting and killing intruders. Posting anything about increasing gun controls is like throwing a sirloin into a pool of piranhas!

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Response to Walk away (Reply #55)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 01:43 PM

57. Hell no!

Why would I want to spend my time in there? I don't like bars, either. Doesn't mean I think they should all be banned, or that all people who go into bars are alcoholics. Like reproductive rights advocates say, if you don't like abortions, don't get one. Likewise, if you don't like guns, don't go into the gungeon.

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Response to intheflow (Reply #57)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:06 PM

64. But what if you have a sincere interest in gun control? What about those of us who...

have supported the Brady Bill for years? What about people like myself who have lost love ones at the point of a legal gun in the hands of someone who "lost his temper"? How does your facetious bar comparison stand up to that? There is no debate in the gungeon, there is just 2nd Amendment authority.

You are basically telling us we have no place to go and discuss how to go about organizing and advocating for gun control if we don't want to be bullied and berated by a group that is clearly overrun by many non-Democrats and NRA advocates.

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Response to Walk away (Reply #64)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:16 PM

71. I am saying nothing of the sort.

I am not saying you have no place to go to discuss organizing and advocating for gun control.

Nothing stopping you from rallying your friends to go into the sink hole with you.

You can petition Skinner to open a gun control group on DU that is dedicated only to gun control organizing, and exclude DUers who own guns from your group, like the LGBTQ group has rules against homophobic posters.

Also, nothing stopping you from visiting other web sites specifically dedicated to gun control.

Or continuing your work within the real world gun control community.

You are not going to change anyone's mind on either side in the gungeon. But shutting down people who disagree with you is never the answer. You're acting helpless, like you don't have any options or the right to exercise your right to free speech. That is, quite honestly, bullshit.

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Response to intheflow (Reply #71)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 05:34 PM

91. Believe me, I have other outlets for my interests. It just seems a little sad that a forum...

that is filled with jolly posts about people being shot is the forum that every gun discussion ends up (except on special national tragedy weeks). There are simply no standards when it comes to guns on DU. Free speech is a poor excuse for what goes on in that forum.

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Response to Walk away (Reply #64)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 04:04 PM

89. I just reread your post and want to add...

I'm so sorry for your loss. I, myself, have lost a loved one to someone in a "fit of passion." My husband was killed with a knife, but I know if a gun had been available, the asshole who killed him would have used it. he'd used them before in armed robberies but came from a well-connected family that repeatedly kept him out of jail with various legal wranglings. So please understand that I understand your passion and applaud any and all work you do for gun control. I am just as passionate about free speech, that's really my dog in this thread's hunt.

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Response to Savannahmann (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 01:00 PM

24. Refusal to discuss something does NOT remove it as a problem.

Everybody is in pain right now. Censorship is never right, but it is particularly unpalatable when the issues are important to us as a society.

I pray I don't see a time when DU refuses to discuss issues simply because they make somebody uncomfortable.



Laura

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Response to Savannahmann (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 01:01 PM

25. Even if its hard we need open communication

just like in a marriage. If you try to pretend you don't have a problem it won't go away.

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Response to marlakay (Reply #25)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 01:02 PM

31. + 1 n/t

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Response to Savannahmann (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 01:05 PM

35. I think there needs to be a place for guns to be discussed

I think a good solution would to be to have two separate groups.

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Response to Savannahmann (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 01:06 PM

37. Confusing censorship contentions.

Let's see ...

If you advocate for examining the role of video games and their relationship to gun violence you are pounced on as advocating for censorship.

But removing the gun forum completely is .... what?

We are not dissent-stifling, closed-minded, illiberal, intolerant people here ... are we?

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Response to Savannahmann (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 01:08 PM

39. Gun fetishism is America's Really Big Disease.

Diseases need to be quarantined or they spread making all else dysfunctional.
Keep the dungeon.

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Response to FredStembottom (Reply #39)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 01:09 PM

41. Well put! n/t

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Response to Savannahmann (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 01:14 PM

43. i agree we need more gun control...

...disagree with getting rid of the rkba forum. Obviously democrats disagree on the topic of guns so there should be a place to debate and discuss.

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Response to Savannahmann (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 01:16 PM

44. Keep the gun forum - Remove RKBA

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Response to SecularMotion (Reply #44)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 01:27 PM

51. Do you mean...

Change the group name and SoP to ban expression of pro-gun opinions, or are you making a broader statement about removing the 2nd amendment to the US constitution?

EDIT: In the event of the latter, it would be more accurate to say "Remove the 2nd amendment." The right to keep and bear arms is a basic human right that can't be revoked. The 2nd amendment simply codifies it in federal law.

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Response to NewMoonTherian (Reply #51)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 01:43 PM

56. Really?

In the event of the latter, it would be more accurate to say "Remove the 2nd amendment." The right to keep and bear arms is a basic human right that can't be revoked. The 2nd amendment simply codifies it in federal law.


A basic human right that can't be revoked? It has been revoked in many nations, and those nations all enjoy a much higher standard of living, and more peaceful existence than we do. They are far less likely to endure violence, and far more likely to live out their days peacefully. Yet you claim it is a basic human right. How so? Is there some divine writing from a Deity that says we are free to arm ourselves? If so, does that divine directive limit the right in any way? Are you free to have a machine gun? Or are you limited by this basic human right that can't be revoked in any way? Does this basic human right accept any limits?

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Response to NewMoonTherian (Reply #51)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:00 PM

60. What is a "pro-gun opinion"?

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Response to SecularMotion (Reply #60)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:05 PM

63. An opinion that favors relaxing gun restrictions, or opposes new ones. n/t

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Response to NewMoonTherian (Reply #63)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:15 PM

66. Democrats support gun control

Find a right wing forum to oppose gun control.

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Response to SecularMotion (Reply #66)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:49 PM

67. This isn't the place to discuss that.

I was just trying to better understand your earlier post.

Because I can't help myself, though, many Democrats oppose gun control. Gun policy isn't a defining characteristic of the party anymore.

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Response to NewMoonTherian (Reply #67)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:58 PM

68. Democratic Party platform on guns

We recognize that the individual right to bear arms is an important part of the American tradition, and we will preserve Americans' Second Amendment right to own and use firearms. We believe that the right to own firearms is subject to reasonable regulation. We understand the terrible consequences of gun violence; it serves as a reminder that life is fragile, and our time here is limited and precious. We believe in an honest, open national conversation about firearms. We can focus on effective enforcement of existing laws, especially strengthening our background check system, and we can work together to enact commonsense improvements--like reinstating the assault weapons ban and closing the gun show loophole--so that guns do not fall into the hands of those irresponsible, law-breaking few.

http://www.issues2000.org/celeb/Democratic_Party_Gun_Control.htm

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Response to Savannahmann (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 01:21 PM

46. Definitely not.




For the record I have only visited the gun forum a handful of times since I have been a DUer. IMO banning a DU forum for what is discussed there would be antithetic to everything DU stands for. Let it be.


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Response to Savannahmann (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 01:22 PM

47. One can not ignore divisive, polarizing political issues and hope to win elections. Thatís

 

why the Second Amendment, abortion, religion, LGBT et al are in our Democratic Party Platform.

To even suggest banning discussion of one of those issues implies one is not very serious about electing our candidates and controlling Congress, the Executive Branch, and appointing justices to the Supreme Court.

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Response to jody (Reply #47)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 01:33 PM

54. Fair enough, but I ask this question

What is the purpose of gaining that power? We are now fighting to raise taxes on the rich, because that is something we campaigned for, and won an election on. We are also fighting to maintain funding for Social Security, Medicare and a number of other programs to help the needy, because we stand for that. But are you saying we don't dare restrict firearms because we would lose the power we have won in a landslide election?

I stand for restricting firearms. Because I want to make events like the Sandy Hook Massacre a thing of the past, not an inevitable part of our future. Are you telling me that simple statement would cause us to lose to Rethugs?

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Response to Savannahmann (Reply #54)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 01:54 PM

58. Holding political power under our form of democracy does not mean a simple majority can impose its

 

will upon the minority.

The Bill of Rights obligates government to protect preexisting rights of even a minority of one against the tyranny of the majority.

SCOTUS has navigated the treacherous straits between individual rights and rights of society by allowing infringement of individual rights but never abolishing a right.

You say "I stand for restricting firearms" but you should also acknowledge that there are probably more laws restricting the Second Amendment than any other enumerated right.

Instead of invective and plea for separation, I vote for open discussion and serious efforts to find a solution that will prevent another Sandy Hook Tragedy.

IMO those who disagree with my position are part of the problem and not a solution.

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Response to jody (Reply #58)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 09:27 PM

97. Nuts

The entire reason for having political power is to improve the nation, and the conditions of existence for the people. We don't get power just to have it to lord around, but to make real improvements in the lives of the people. Now, how can we improve the lives of the people. We've done that to an extent with the ACA, and we will see the lives of the people improve, not as much as if we had a true single payer, but its a start. Now, for the ACA to help the people, they have to live long enough to take advantage of it. That means we have to guarantee their security, and safety. We have dozens of Federal agencies that restrict the rights of the minority, when those rights impact the well being of the majority.

You don't get to cut down any old tree you want on YOUR property, property owners rights be damned if there is an endangered species in those woods that must be protected. You don't get to dump any old toxic waste you want on YOUR property as is your right because that impacts our lives. That is the Endangered Species Act, and the EPA. You don't get unlimited freedom of speech, and you will still have all those other rights you seem to ignore without your precious gun.

So don't tell me that we have no moral standing, and claiming that those of us who think you gun nuts should be regulated, and stripped of your firearms are part of the problem. That is flatly asinine. We didn't shoot anyone at Sandy Hook, or Aurora, or anywhere else. We haven't robbed, raped, shot, stabbed, or otherwise harmed another. We don't stand by and scream that there is nothing anyone can do, and stick our tongues out at those demanding change. We expect to hand our children, and grand children a better nation than we have now and a better world.

That means we have to get the guns off the streets, and out of private hands. That is the solution, one used all around the world by every civilized nation. Nobody else lets their citizens run around with guns. Nobody else has our rates of gun violence either. Nobody else buries tens of thousands of their citizens because of the right to bear arms. In any other nation where tens of thousands die from guns you would find a civil war going on. Only in America is it business as usual. Have you considered that for even a moment? The only other nations with that many people getting shot and killed are in the midst of civil war. Yet we don't dare discuss stripping you of your precious right to keep and bear arms, because you never know when the Militia will call and beg you to take command.

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Response to jody (Reply #47)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:56 PM

88. ah, you don't like the idea.

it's sounding better and better all the time!

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Response to Savannahmann (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 01:24 PM

48. I would have voted to keep it but only as the "Pro-Gun forum"

it should be called what it is. Then there could be a "Pro-Gun Control forum". After all, the Pet Forum is maintained as a pro-pet forum. Anyone going there to advocate banning pets would be kicked right out.

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Response to Savannahmann (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 01:28 PM

52. Voted...

to keep it.

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Response to Savannahmann (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:00 PM

59. What will this accomplish?

I rarely visit most of the forums here. If you aren't interested don't go there! What's next? Don't get me wrong, I am not a gun person. I'm not gay, of ethnic origin or interested in religion. Some of that may bother me. Should we ban those as well?

The solution to our violent society is not so much about the hardware but that we as a people go about the planet killing indiscriminately! We tell ourselves that other cultures don't value family like we do. That some are bred to kill. This justifies our drones and bombs. When violence hits us at home we are so surprised that death could find us. We need help all right. It starts with our global policy and ends on Main Street!

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Response to Savannahmann (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:03 PM

61. I vote no.

(Note: I think it's a bit ironic that the OP's avatar is a baby holding a sci-fi gun. If the OP is really concern with gun culture I suggest he/she change her avatar. It is too easy to point elsewhere in times like these than to look at yourself first.)

My view of the Democratic Party is one of a big tent where disagreement happen and should be discussed in rational way. ( which is an epic fail by both sides in the current mud-ball match on-going over guns.) Although, there are certain attitudes one can not have to be a Dem ( racists ones, blatant sexism and hatred of women, homophobia, anti-union, ect) the gun issue has never been one of them. To band a group because one says it has NRA talking points is problematic, as that in itself is an ad homonym and strawman attack:being a point made by the NRA doesn't make the point automatically wrong; a point is wrong or right because of its level of soundness or validity--which can be pointed out in a point-counter point argument without need of using logical fallacies.

The need to band a group based on logical fallacies gives me the impression that the OP side hasn't the ability to argue their views effectively, are losing the battle and have decided that the best way to impose their views is by gagging the opposition--a strategy that goes counter to the democratic belief and conversation and the spirit of free speech. The gun control faction needs to temper their emotional outbursts and activate their reasoning part of their mind if they choose to advance their cause.( to be fair, the gun group people are also acting emotionally with bad arguments but this post was started by a control advocate.)

I do not own guns, have no attraction to them, and I don't have a side. Though we need to have some better control of guns, I support the second amendment. So I haven't decided what change I would support? The discussion here on DU about it hasn't helped me decide; both sides sound like ranting maniacs, and both need their act together.

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Response to Savannahmann (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:04 PM

62. The gungeoneers have a thread asking gungeoneers to Freep this poll

 

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Response to RomneyLies (Reply #62)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:15 PM

69. Are you trying to imply that people shouldn't be allowed to speak on an issue

 

that affects them?

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #69)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:17 PM

72. No, I'm laughing at people so desperate as to want to freep an internet poll on the same site

 

It's silly and really just makes me

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Response to RomneyLies (Reply #72)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:22 PM

74. "freep" a poll? So glad you came for a rational discussion.

 

Have a really good day.

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #74)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:32 PM

78. Just using the terminology of the average gungeoneer.

 

Never will you find a more wretched hive of RMNJs and idiocy.

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Response to RomneyLies (Reply #78)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 06:54 PM

93. RMNJ? Help me out, I didn't get the code book..... n/t

 

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Response to RomneyLies (Reply #62)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:25 PM

75. Call me surprised.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #75)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:34 PM

79. Yeah, I need a shower

 

I feel nearly as icky as one of my infrequent visits to Free Republic or Redstate.

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Response to Savannahmann (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:15 PM

70. Glad to see that common sense is prevailing on this one... n/t

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Response to Savannahmann (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:20 PM

73. I voted yes

Not because gun ownership is a problem, but gun fetishism is.

And we need to make NRA derived talking points, which are actually divorced from reality, need to be made as socially unacceptable as drunk driving.

I think that seismic shift in the culture is underway and regulations are forthcoming.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #73)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:32 PM

77. I agree

And I hope you are right about change coming. There was a caller on Stephanie Miller this morning. A gun owner and military member. He said seven day waiting periods, psychological evaluations and doing away with gun shows would be okay with him. He supports the right to own a gun and the second amendment but did think more should be done to make gun owners more responsible. Personally gave me hope that sanity will prevail.

I'd like to see a ban on automatic weapons though.

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Response to abelenkpe (Reply #77)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:54 PM

85. Being technically correct matters

Automatics have been illegal since 1934, but limiting the clip sized of semi automatics, smart gun technology, closing the loopholes and getting rid of toned down infantry weapons, sure.

It goes without saying, background checks...and I would like to make them more stringent.

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Response to Savannahmann (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:27 PM

76. It's an important political topic, going to be more important going forward

If we can keep it open to ALL SIDES in the conversation, I think we should.

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Response to Savannahmann (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:35 PM

80. This is a topic that MUST be discussed

This is the reality of today's world. I'd rather have the conversation here, with adults typing back and forth, than on various TV channels, where children (and people who are not very stable) can easily see them and be affected.

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Response to Savannahmann (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:35 PM

81. I did NOT vote either way because I would like to see a second ANTI-GUN forum group in same place

 

I do think its unfair that anti-gun, anti-Nra posters like myself have on our transparency record that I am in that group often, but it don't say I am ANTI GUN ANTI NRA

therefore a reader might think I am one of the Pro GUN people which I am not

that said-
I am very uncomfortable with outright dropping the group, would like a more happy compromise.

Can there be subsections of that group-perhaps a second group of ANTI GUN with their own group leader

so that anti-gun can feel they are on home turf, not just visiting???

that is the one problem. I feel like I am a visitor and not on equal footing when I go there to argue.

But I am not one to censor, so I am not going to vote to remove it. But I do not that there are not as many posters there as they might want you to believe, just that they are quick to respond to any negative gun post and all

Btw-Most of the posters there have treated me decently, which is something I can't say for another group on this board who account for 99% of those ignoring me(so they won't be reading this I guess). (Me, I ignore no one.)

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Response to Savannahmann (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:38 PM

82. Keep the group get rid of the gun nuts so we can have the...

discussion our president wants us to have.

There is no problem solving discussion with people who will live and die for the right to own assault rifles and extended clips. They will do anything to avoid what they see as a slippery slope just so they can keep a rifle or handgun.

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Response to Savannahmann (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:39 PM

83. Can we have a motion to stop bugging everybody with ridiculous motions?

Cause now THAT I could get behind.

Is there any chance, any chance at all, that some of you people could just grow up the tiniest bit? OH MY GOD!! There are people here who disagree with you!! There are people here who do not have the same specific definition of liberal or progressive that you have!! How WILL you or the DU survive such a horror!!

Well, we have for quite awhile now. Do I agree with just about ANYTHING the leading lights of the gungeon say?? Not really. Do I think we should remove their forum? No.

Do I think the 'management' of the DU gives a rat's ass about these ridiculous polls? Not on your life. And nor should they.

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Response to Savannahmann (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:55 PM

86. my vote is related to it being a haven (or is it "hive") for right wingers on DU

well, mostly them, and a few brave souls that argue with them.

the regulars, mostly stay in there and venturing out into GD is mostly limited to anti-black and/or gun control topics.

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Response to Savannahmann (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:56 PM

87. I abhor guns and would never own one

but I don't see how removing the gun forum is helpful. Open communication and discuss is vital to finding a way to preventing tragedies like Newtown.

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Response to Savannahmann (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 04:04 PM

90. Threadstarter, you have 282 posts under your belt.

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Response to Savannahmann (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 07:26 PM

94. It's the main reason I stopped reading DU for a couple of years....

Only got back into it right before the election.

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