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Sun Dec 16, 2012, 04:03 PM

The 2nd Amendment is an anachronism.

The Founders were opposed to permanent standing armies because at the time they were associated with monarchical absolutism and instead expected state militias to do the job of defense, that is the context of the 2nd Amendment. It says people have a right to own weapons so they can serve in the militia need be. it has nothing to do with an absolute right to own guns.

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Arrow 52 replies Author Time Post
Reply The 2nd Amendment is an anachronism. (Original post)
Odin2005 Dec 2012 OP
Turbineguy Dec 2012 #1
aristocles Dec 2012 #2
kelly1mm Dec 2012 #3
xchrom Dec 2012 #5
kelly1mm Dec 2012 #7
xchrom Dec 2012 #9
kelly1mm Dec 2012 #14
xchrom Dec 2012 #27
kelly1mm Dec 2012 #29
xchrom Dec 2012 #32
kelly1mm Dec 2012 #36
Lizzie Poppet Dec 2012 #11
hack89 Dec 2012 #4
backwoodsbob Dec 2012 #6
Dems to Win Dec 2012 #8
X_Digger Dec 2012 #10
aristocles Dec 2012 #13
X_Digger Dec 2012 #23
Dems to Win Dec 2012 #15
X_Digger Dec 2012 #25
Dems to Win Dec 2012 #26
X_Digger Dec 2012 #28
aristocles Dec 2012 #30
X_Digger Dec 2012 #31
aristocles Dec 2012 #33
X_Digger Dec 2012 #35
Dems to Win Dec 2012 #34
X_Digger Dec 2012 #37
Dems to Win Dec 2012 #38
elleng Dec 2012 #51
jeff47 Dec 2012 #39
X_Digger Dec 2012 #42
jeff47 Dec 2012 #43
X_Digger Dec 2012 #44
jeff47 Dec 2012 #46
X_Digger Dec 2012 #47
jeff47 Dec 2012 #48
X_Digger Dec 2012 #49
jeff47 Dec 2012 #50
JustABozoOnThisBus Dec 2012 #16
X_Digger Dec 2012 #24
Poiuyt Dec 2012 #12
aardvark401 Dec 2012 #17
jeff47 Dec 2012 #40
napkinz Dec 2012 #18
napkinz Dec 2012 #19
davidn3600 Dec 2012 #20
jeff47 Dec 2012 #41
humblebum Dec 2012 #21
fordgmman1966sel Dec 2012 #22
Riftaxe Dec 2012 #45
jberryhill Dec 2012 #52

Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 04:09 PM

1. That may be

but the NRA which used to celebrate the 2nd amendment and what the founders meant by it has been taken over by terrorists.

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 04:11 PM

3. Perhaps so and maybe it should be repealed, although the SC disagrees with your overall

interpretation on the right to own guns (although the SC did not find an ABSOLUTE right to own guns)

Do you think the congress has enough votes to repeal? And more importantly, will enough states ratify?

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Response to kelly1mm (Reply #3)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 04:15 PM

5. Throwing the net of the SC doesn't answer anything

Re the 2a.

Who were they?

Their affiliations?

What was the dissent?

And last but not least - it can be revisited.

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Response to xchrom (Reply #5)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 04:22 PM

7. Sure it can be revisited. Usually it takes a generation or two to overcome the power of precident

though, Lawrence v Texas being the latest - that only took 17 years to overturn Bowers v Hardwick, which is the fastest overturning of precident in USSC history.

Again, do you think there are enough votes in congress to pass an amendment to repeal the 2nd? And will enough state ratify it?

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Response to kelly1mm (Reply #7)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 05:16 PM

9. I think there are lots of things that can and should've

Been done without visiting 2a.

You build success -

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Response to xchrom (Reply #9)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 05:28 PM

14. On that we may agree! However, the OP was about how the 2nd amendment was an anachronism

and I asked questions concerning repeal of the amendment described as an anachronism - fair game, no?

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Response to kelly1mm (Reply #14)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 06:30 PM

27. I strongly believe it is antique.

And I think it self evident - it is doing us damage as a nation.

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Response to xchrom (Reply #27)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 06:33 PM

29. So is it safe to assume you support repeal? If so, do you believe we have enough members of

congress to repeal and, more importantly, enough states to ratify the repeal to make it law? It only takes 13 states to stop it.

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Response to kelly1mm (Reply #29)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 07:06 PM

32. Not yet. But framing is everything.

There is no excuse for being inarticulate and building your case at times like this.

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Response to xchrom (Reply #32)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 08:19 PM

36. I agree. It will be A SHIT LOAD of work to get society to a place where the congrees would repeal

the 2nd amendment. Further, I doubt I will see 38 states in my lifetime (40ish more years) that would ratify a repeal. But maybe, after I am gone, the 2nd amendment will be a true relic.

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Response to kelly1mm (Reply #3)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 05:20 PM

11. As do linguists. But an amendment repealing it could render that moot.

Not addressing whether that would be a good idea or not, but it would be possible, at least as a longshot.

Personally, I expect a fragmentation of the Union long before then, though.

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 04:13 PM

4. So garner enough public support to amend or repeal it.

and no one says there is an absolute right - even Scalia in Heller said that government regulation is ok.

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 04:16 PM

6. repeal it

simple enough

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 05:06 PM

8. It's time to REPEAL the second amendment.

I just sent this to my (retiring) congresswoman:

Dear Congresswoman Woolsey:

Repeal the Second Amendment Now.

It is irrational that we have a constitutional right to own a gun but not a car. A car has utility and purpose, transporting us to where we need to go, and occasionally tragically causing death. Guns have the sole purpose of causing death. They have no other utility.

Please, I beg of you, in your final days in Congress, make the most courageous stand of your life. Introduce a bill to amend the Constitution, striking the second amendment from the Bill of Rights. Take the one real, bold, sane action that will be a fitting memorial to the children and adults massacred in Newtown.

Only after the second amendment is repealed can we have meaningful regulation of guns, which rationally needs to be much stronger and more rigorous than the licensing and insurance requirements for cars, rather than far weaker as is currently the case. It is disingenuous to pretend otherwise.

Challenge your congressional colleagues to pass your bill and send the amendment to the states for ratification. Stand up to the bloodthirsty, moneyhungry NRA. Trust that in all states of our union, there are enough people who love children more than they love guns. Let us have a REAL, meaningful conversation about rights and guns and death.

Challenge your colleagues to exhibit as much courage as a kindergarten teacher or an elementary school principal.

Repeal the Second Amendment Now. It is obvious what we need to do to have any hope of preventing further Newtowns. No other response is proportional to this ongoing catastrophe.

Repeal the Second Amendment Now.

Respectfully,

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Response to Dems to Win (Reply #8)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 05:18 PM

10. Seious question for you:

Do you think the right protected by the second amendment disappears with repeal of the second amendment?

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Response to X_Digger (Reply #10)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 05:27 PM

13. Yes. n/t

 

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Response to aristocles (Reply #13)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 06:00 PM

23. No, it would go from being an enumerated right, to an unenumerated right protected by the ninth.

The Bill of Rights did not create rights- it protects pre-existing rights.

Read your Hobbes, Locke, and Rousseau (not to mention 220+ years of court precedent).

eta: And you'd have to remove the right from 49 or 50 state constitutions, and argue it doesn't exist in every court district in the US.

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Response to X_Digger (Reply #10)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 05:29 PM

15. What do you mean?

If you prefer, we can replace the language of the second amendment to:

There is no right to possess or manufacture weapons in the these United States.

That specific enough for you?

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Response to Dems to Win (Reply #15)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 06:04 PM

25. No exceptions? You've just removed the military and police.. n/t

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Response to X_Digger (Reply #25)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 06:28 PM

26. I don't have a 'right' to own a car, yet I own one. End the special privileges for guns.

Once the 2nd amendment is gone, we can set reasonable rules for gun ownership and enforcement, just like we do for all other items we deem worthy of regulation. Just because we repeal the 2nd amendment doesn't mean we make all gun ownership illegal (though we could choose to do just that, through our legislatures), it just means we can set the rules of ownership without bowing to the Supreme Court's interpretation of a very badly worded amendment creating a 'right' that does not serve us well in our modern, crowded world.

Police and army don't need the 2nd amendment to be armed -- we can set up any new rules we want in a post-2nd-amendment country, after repeal.

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Response to Dems to Win (Reply #26)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 06:31 PM

28. See post #23. Not as easy as you imagine. n/t

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Response to X_Digger (Reply #28)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 06:43 PM

30. See post #2. n/t

 

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Response to aristocles (Reply #30)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 06:55 PM

31. This is constitutional law, nothing to do with the NRA.

I don't think you understand how rights work, how our constitution protects rights, or how constitutional jurisprudence works.

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Response to X_Digger (Reply #31)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 07:09 PM

33. And I suppose our rights come from God? n/t

 

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Response to aristocles (Reply #33)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 07:14 PM

35. They do pre-date the constitution.

I'm not a religious person, but if you read your Locke / Rousseau, they speak of a 'creator'. Certainly the folks who wrote the constitution and bill of rights thought that rights existed before they finished writing those documents.

That's why the ninth amendment still applies.

A good example: Do you have the right to travel? Of course you do. It's been established in case law that such a right exists. Where do you find that right ensconced in the constitution or amendments? Nowhere. It isn't there.

The "right of privacy" (as opposed to the right to be free from unreasonable search and seizure) is similarly a right that you won't find in the constitution- it's protected by the ninth amendment (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roe_v._Wade#Right_to_privacy )

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Response to X_Digger (Reply #28)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 07:11 PM

34. I didn't say it would be easy, I said we CAN do it. And we CAN, if only we have the will.

We the people control the constitution, the courts, the whole shebang.

Are we as civilized as Scotland after Dunblane? Can we take effective action, even if it might be hard and might take a long time?

TODAY is the day to start.

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Response to Dems to Win (Reply #34)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 08:24 PM

37. It's not as simple as rolling back the second amendment.

I've seen a lot of folks propose that, as if that would make the right go away. It's a bit naive, to be honest.

I'm saying it's a lot harder than you seem to think it is, for various reasons. And if you spend all your effort on repealing the second amendment, burning bridges and blowing political capital, it would be a hell of a slap in the face when it doesn't result in what you think it would.

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Response to X_Digger (Reply #37)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 09:00 PM

38. It is the NECESSARY FIRST STEP in achieving responsible gun laws. Period.

Nowhere did I say repealing the 2nd amendment will itself solve the problems. We then have to go on and craft strict laws and enforce them. But that cannot even be attempted while saddled with the 2nd amendment.

Obama will never run for re-election. He should USE his political capital for good purpose. And preventing the slaughter of more 5-year-olds is a worthy purpose.

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Response to Dems to Win (Reply #26)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 12:49 AM

51. We can set rules of ownership NOW, WITH the 2d amendment.

It just takes guts to do so.

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Response to X_Digger (Reply #25)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 09:09 PM

39. Soldiers and police don't buy their guns.

The government does, and issues them to soldiers and police.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #39)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 09:18 PM

42. Soldiers? No. But quite a few police do. n/t

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Response to X_Digger (Reply #42)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 09:24 PM

43. Quite a few buy additional guns

But "department issue" exists.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #43)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 09:31 PM

44. "Department issue" doesn't exist in every department.

Thank states' dwindling budgets for that reality.

Just like teachers are buying school supplies for their classes, many departments have their officers purchase their own weapons.

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Response to X_Digger (Reply #44)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 09:40 PM

46. Is your argument that this is an un-fixable problem? (nt)

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #46)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 09:45 PM

47. No, that repealing the second amendment wouldn't accomplish what the naive think it would. n/t

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Response to X_Digger (Reply #47)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 09:57 PM

48. .....because the police department would have to buy guns.

Seriously?

If you're just gonna phone it in that badly, why bother posting?

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #48)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 09:59 PM

49. No, because the right would then be an unenumerated right protected by the 9th. n/t

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Response to X_Digger (Reply #49)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 12:43 AM

50. Which isn't what we're talking about in this sub-thread

If you'd like to go there, I'll happily point out that if a right requires the sacrifice of these 20 children, it isn't worth protecting.

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Response to X_Digger (Reply #10)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 05:29 PM

16. That depends on the wording of the amendment that repeals it

"In order to protect the general populace, people are forbidden from owning or carrying firearms. There will, of course, be certain exceptions, such as police, military, national guard, judges, prosecutors, mayors, governors, city council members, private security personnel, aldermen, rich people, celebrities, senators, representatives, employees of mercenary companies, owners of jewelry stores, liquor stores, pawn shops, gas stations, all-night diners, 24-hour party stores. But other than that, all guns are eliminated."

and, voila, no more second amendment

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Response to JustABozoOnThisBus (Reply #16)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 06:02 PM

24. Lol, I see what you did there..

and I approve

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 05:21 PM

12. I agree absolutely

The 2nd amendment has no relevance in today's society. It was written into the Constitution as a way of fighting back against the government, and today it still serves as kind of an antigovernment measure. Witness how fixated the antigovernment types are about their guns. The infatuation some people have about their guns is perverse.

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 05:33 PM

17. A questio for those of you that

 

do not support the right to keep and bear arms. If the words the "right of the people" in the second amendment do not refer to the general population how do you propose defining those words in the 1st and 4th amendments? Are the 1st and 4th amendments only applicable to a select group?? You may attempt a repeal but I don't think enough states would agree.

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Response to aardvark401 (Reply #17)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 09:13 PM

40. A question for you

Are you literate?

I mean, there's nothing here about "right of the people". There's discussion of the environment when the 2nd amendment was written versus today. The founders didn't like standing armies, and felt revolution would be necessary every now and then.

Well, we now have a standing army. And there is absolutely no way a revolution with currently-legal weapons could overcome that army in a a revolution - An F-35 beats an AR-15. Even a really nice AR-15.

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 05:36 PM

19. First Amendment: "Can't Yell Fire" ... Second Amendment: "Can't Open Fire"






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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 05:42 PM

20. The founders wanted the people to have teeth

They believed the best government is one that feared the people. They saw it has the only way to safeguard liberty and prevent tyranny.

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Response to davidn3600 (Reply #20)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 09:15 PM

41. That is no longer possible.

Weapons "normal" people can obtain would be utterly ineffective in a revolution against the US military. Your AR-15 isn't going to work terribly well against an Abrams, Apache or Aardvark.

If you'd like to bring up our adventures in Afghanistan or Vietnam, you should remember the US didn't lose militarily. They lost the political battle back home. That isn't going to apply with a revolution within the US.

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 05:44 PM

21. So, if "it has nothing to do with an absolute right to own guns" then how

 

are they expected to have weapons in order to serve in a militia? you could not have a militia without the right to bear arms. You also could not hunt for food or protect your property and family.

In reality weapons were a necessity for many to survive daily life at that time. Yes, that right was always guaranteed.

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 05:45 PM

22. well said

 

that amendment has been misinterpreted to a great degree

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 09:38 PM

45. Repeal it then

run for office on that platform, or find someone who will.

They will be completely and utterly trounced on election day, but at least you could claim you attempted to do something about the constitution that a small minority of US citizens do not like.

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 12:49 AM

52. I agree

It was written in the context of not having a standing federal army, but preserving state militias.

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