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Sun Dec 16, 2012, 02:51 PM

Please someone explain to me how a parent can live in the same house with a child they have raised

their entire life and not know that the person sitting across the table from you, or sleeping down the hall from you, and can have such contempt for you to the point that they are capable of shooting you in the face, does not pose a danger to himself and to society. I don’t think it’s possible. I think lots of parents are in denial. I see it all the time.

My experience, having raised three kids who are now well into adulthood, has been that parents whose kids have the type of contempt for their parents that they are capable of doing harm to them have demonstrated those behaviors previously, and are usually out of control; and rather than dealing with it, they try and hide it as if they are doing their kids or themselves a favor.

I realize that our lives are complicated, but I find it impossible to believe that parents can have children (or adult kids) living with them who are capable of committing atrocities and those parents be oblivious to that fact. My experience with kids has been that they leave all kinds of clues of what they are up to, what they are thinking, if they are angry, if they are sad. I have never had to search my kids personal belongings to find out. Teens leave a paper trail, and plenty of clues, or you over hear things. What we choose to do with that information is up to us.

My husband and I have lived in middle class neighborhoods all ofour adult lives though we were both born into poor families. We worked ourselves up out of the circumstances in which we were born into good neighborhoods and our kids went to good schools.

I recall that after the Columbine killings, the parents of the kid that was primarily responsible for planning the killings for over the year stated that their son spent all his time down in their basement and they hadn’t been down in the basement in over a year. I’m sorry, but what a recipe for disaster.

While I realize that most of these kids will not commit mass murder, several kids I know personally in our community where I have lived for the past 19 years, and which I believe is a typical middle class city and community, and who went to our local schools with our kids over the years, or are friends of our children have driven drunk and were involved in accidents which cause the deaths of others, one committed suicide, several attempted suicide, several accidentally overdosed on drugs and the parents hid this from friends and authorities at their schools; several kids have attacked their parents physically when they didn’t get their way (though these parents never spanked their children so they didn’t learn violence at home); one threatened to kill her mother and was held on a suicide watch, only to be released 3 days later and the mother bought her a car so the daughter would forgive her for having allowed her to be locked up for 3 days. And all of these families were intact, two parent families.

A common thread I find in most of these situations was that almost all of these kids , even the ones who didn’t get into trouble with the law but had troubles at home, was that they had too many things, too much spending money, and too little responsibilities; their parents were too busy trying to be their kids friend, rather than being their kids parents; and the parents would do anything to keep peace in the household and therefore the kids were running the house because the parents simply didn’t have the time and energy to deal with the conflict.

Having children creates conflict. Raising responsible productive members of society, creates conflict. It’s not for the timid or the faint at heart. If you’re not equipped for being an active participant in what’s going on in your kid’s lives on a day to day basis, and parenting them; than don’t have them, get a pet instead.

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Reply Please someone explain to me how a parent can live in the same house with a child they have raised (Original post)
politicaljunkie41910 Dec 2012 OP
lunatica Dec 2012 #1
politicaljunkie41910 Dec 2012 #4
elehhhhna Dec 2012 #10
Mel Content Dec 2012 #29
u4ic Dec 2012 #30
Michigan Alum Dec 2012 #33
u4ic Dec 2012 #39
Michigan Alum Dec 2012 #48
u4ic Dec 2012 #53
Cetacea Dec 2012 #62
truebluegreen Dec 2012 #61
loyalsister Dec 2012 #73
valerief Dec 2012 #2
KittyWampus Dec 2012 #3
politicaljunkie41910 Dec 2012 #7
coalition_unwilling Dec 2012 #32
Fumesucker Dec 2012 #5
politicaljunkie41910 Dec 2012 #14
TwilightGardener Dec 2012 #6
Happyhippychick Dec 2012 #8
politicaljunkie41910 Dec 2012 #12
galileoreloaded Dec 2012 #15
Happyhippychick Dec 2012 #17
politicaljunkie41910 Dec 2012 #19
Happyhippychick Dec 2012 #21
FarCenter Dec 2012 #54
Happyhippychick Dec 2012 #57
Manifestor_of_Light Dec 2012 #31
Michigan Alum Dec 2012 #35
cali Dec 2012 #34
Michigan Alum Dec 2012 #36
rrneck Dec 2012 #9
oldhippie Dec 2012 #11
politicaljunkie41910 Dec 2012 #13
Michigan Alum Dec 2012 #37
ileus Dec 2012 #16
TwilightGardener Dec 2012 #18
politicaljunkie41910 Dec 2012 #20
SmileyRose Dec 2012 #22
Corgigal Dec 2012 #23
politicaljunkie41910 Dec 2012 #24
marlakay Dec 2012 #25
The Velveteen Ocelot Dec 2012 #26
OneGrassRoot Dec 2012 #46
Honeycombe8 Dec 2012 #27
intaglio Dec 2012 #28
lbrtbell Dec 2012 #38
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #40
politicaljunkie41910 Dec 2012 #42
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #44
Sheldon Cooper Dec 2012 #41
politicaljunkie41910 Dec 2012 #43
Sheldon Cooper Dec 2012 #47
ieoeja Dec 2012 #56
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #45
Marrah_G Dec 2012 #68
loyalsister Dec 2012 #75
Enrique Dec 2012 #49
libdem4life Dec 2012 #58
Jamastiene Dec 2012 #74
Tommy_Carcetti Dec 2012 #50
Flabbergasted Dec 2012 #51
libdem4life Dec 2012 #52
Cetacea Dec 2012 #63
libdem4life Dec 2012 #66
Cetacea Dec 2012 #69
libdem4life Dec 2012 #71
pecwae Dec 2012 #70
libdem4life Dec 2012 #72
nolabear Dec 2012 #55
libdem4life Dec 2012 #59
nolabear Dec 2012 #60
susanr516 Dec 2012 #64
libdem4life Dec 2012 #67
abelenkpe Dec 2012 #78
KoKo Dec 2012 #65
riverwalker Dec 2012 #76
Tumbulu Dec 2012 #77

Response to politicaljunkie41910 (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 02:54 PM

1. If his mother had known she was going to be killed do you really think

she wouldn't have done something about it? You're entire argument falls apart right there. You write as if she knew she was in mortal danger all along.

Not one single person has come forward to say he was violent in any way.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #1)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 03:04 PM

4. I don't believe anyone who has that level of contempt for someone who can shot them in the face

is capable of concealing that contempt on a day to day basis. Now that's my opinion. You don't have to agree with it, but it's my opinion and I'm sticking with it.

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Response to politicaljunkie41910 (Reply #4)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 03:23 PM

10. good point, worth considering, but you still made that up. it's plausable, not factual.

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Response to politicaljunkie41910 (Reply #4)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 01:32 AM

29. how do you know that it was deep-seated contempt...?

 

and not just an emotional snap?

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Response to politicaljunkie41910 (Reply #4)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 01:35 AM

30. Is it clearly known he hated her?

An alternative explanation: http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/12/14/conneticut-school-gunman.html watch the video

Some have killed family members before the fact because "they would have been embarrassed or suffered" after their shooting rampage.

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Response to u4ic (Reply #30)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 04:39 AM

33. Shooting a person in the face is a sign of deep hate.

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Response to Michigan Alum (Reply #33)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 11:55 AM

39. so is shooting a child 5,6,7, times

but he didn't know any of them.

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Response to u4ic (Reply #39)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 04:15 PM

48. Yes - that is hate or anger. These kids represented something to him.

Perhaps they symbolized either himself as a child or children that maybe teased him, didn't accept him, or that he was envious of (because he saw them as "normal" and "happy") when he was having difficulties.

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Response to Michigan Alum (Reply #48)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 05:07 PM

53. Two posts above, I offered another possible explanation why he could have murdered his mother

from Joseph Lieberman's work. A few other school shooters have reported that they killed their parents so they didn't have to endure the shame or embarrassment of what their child was going to do. There would be no doubt shooting her in the face would kill her.

It's obvious there was hate involved, but my question still remains - was there hate towards his mother, or was he just full of anger/hate towards everyone? Kids can be nasty to each other, never mind ones that don't fit in/are different, and perhaps he was bullied; that may be one of the reasons he was taken out of school and homeschooled.

Or perhaps, like many who were abused/bullied in some way, they just take it out on someone more vulnerable than they are.

Perhaps more about him will unfold. Maybe he was just a psychopath and all this is a moot point.



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Response to Michigan Alum (Reply #33)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 05:50 PM

62. Why the deep hatred?

How do we know wht she was doing with her child? Hate doesn't just happen for no reason.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #1)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 05:48 PM

61. Actually a former baby-sitter, from maybe 10 years ago,

has come forward and stated that his mother told him to never turn his back on her son; that even she wouldn't do it.

Just what she was referring to I don't know but that's a tad ominous.

But it seems she was far more concerned about the end of the world as we know it.

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Response to truebluegreen (Reply #61)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 01:59 PM

73. So that he wouldn't get hurt?

A kid who doesn't feel pain is an unintentional danger to themselves. I'm sure that limitation would have been frustrating. It wouldn't be surprising if he tested the limits.

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Response to politicaljunkie41910 (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 02:58 PM

2. Anyone who feels the need to store an arsenal in their home is in denial of something, that's for

sure.

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Response to politicaljunkie41910 (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 03:01 PM

3. First of all, contempt may have had nothing to do with his mind state.

Second, there is such a thing as denial which is extremely common in families. You could ask the same question of all the families who put up with alcoholics, drug addicts, molesters etc.

Many DU'ers don't seem to grasp that this is less about a killer's thought process than it is about his mind state.

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Response to KittyWampus (Reply #3)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 03:09 PM

7. Whatever his state of mind, I doubt it developed overnight. There were clues. Even his older

brother said that he had issues.

Look, I laid out my case for my opinion, based on my experiences raising three kids over 31 years and watching a whole host of friends, neighbors, co-workers, and community of kids who got into trouble with the law or had behavioral issues. If you've got a theory, lets hear it.

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Response to politicaljunkie41910 (Reply #7)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 04:27 AM

32. "I doubt it developed overnight" - While there may have been signs of problems before

 

the massacre occurred, an actual acute schizoid break could indeed have happened overnight, such that Mr. Lanza perceived the school as a threat. If you saw the movie "A Beautiful Mind," it gives a taste of what can be going through a schizophrenic's mind while they are in the grip of their delusions.

I'm not excusing Mr. Lanza's behavior nor saying that you're wrong, just that the breakdown into full-blown paranoid schizophrenia can appear to outsiders and even family members as a 'sudden break' that 'develops overnight.' (I saw it happen with my own younger brother when he was in his late teens. In retrospect, there were signs that he was going crazy. But those only became obvious after the fact when he had already been hospitalized.)

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Response to politicaljunkie41910 (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 03:07 PM

5. I'm gathering that this young man was quite uncommunicative

There are some people who are an open book and others who are far more reticent about revealing what they are thinking.

No birth control method other than sterilization is foolproof and people very often don't have any idea what they are getting into being a parent, our culture is not good at looking at such things realistically and tends strongly to idealize parenthood (among a lot of other things).


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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #5)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 04:03 PM

14. Most kids are. As parents we've got to find ways to get them to open up.

My mother talked to us all the time about anything and everything. Sometimes we didn't want to listen, but it didn't stop her from saying what she thought we needed to hear. I became her. I talked to my children all the time. They may not always have talked back but I know that they always "heard" me.

Sometimes, they spoke out when I least expected them to and I certainly knew they didn't always agree with me, but I was the adult. I always allowed them to speak their piece but I made them do so respectfully. Respect is a two way street.

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Response to politicaljunkie41910 (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 03:08 PM

6. It sounds like both mother and son were pretty isolated--

kid was possibly estranged from dad and older brother. It may be that this woman had her own troubles, was not coping well herself. But it's no surprise that the kid went after her first--sounds like he was home with her, no contact with peers, no college, no future, just video games, guns, and computers. For a bright but mentally disordered person, that doesn't sound healthy. Maybe he blamed her.

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Response to politicaljunkie41910 (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 03:18 PM

8. I'm curious why you bolded the part about no spanking

I think that you make some valid points. I think that it boils down to this: if parents didn't have accessible guns in their home then there would be fewer school shootings.

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Response to Happyhippychick (Reply #8)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 03:44 PM

12. Because I was trying to convey that these kids were out of control. Their parents didn't believe

in spanking or much discipline in my opinion. I personally happened to believe in spanking and I spanked my children and I was spanked as a child as was my husband. However, I recognize that you can't spank your children in todays society. I believe that disciplining children (to include spanking) has been much maligned in our society, and wrongfully so, and many kids with behavioral problems are the products of overworked parents, an too little discipline.

I also know that I don't fear my parents having been spanked, and my kids don't fear me. I also think there is a difference between spanking and abuse. I was not an abusive parent, rather I was a firm disciplinarian. My kids may not have liked it then, but they tell me all the time, that had we not been the types of parents we were, than they would more likely than not been in the same situations as their friends, schoolmates, and neighbors.

I did work outside the home, as did my husband, and raising kids and being a disciplinarian is hard work. When a child is grounded, you are grounded as well. I lost a lot of sleep as a parent. I volunteered at my kids school. I drove them and their friends to events an picked them up. I was involved in thier lives and their activities, and I never lied for them to keep them out of trouble as many of their friends parents did. My kids understood from a very early age that their actions had consequences, and they were held accountable. At the time it was happening, I wasn't sure how the story was going to play out. I just know how I was raised and how I turned out, and I wanted to do what was best for my kids. I also knew that my kids would not know what I knew, and that it might take them many, many years and maybe never, that what I did, what they may have thought was mean, was out of love for them and because I wanted them to be responsible, productive adults.

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Response to politicaljunkie41910 (Reply #12)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 04:10 PM

15. You can't spank your kids? Since when?

 

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Response to politicaljunkie41910 (Reply #12)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 04:15 PM

17. May I just add one thing?

I am a parenting consultant and I just need to clarify the very big difference between "no spanking" and "no discipline" as they are worlds apart. Discipline technically means "to teach" whereas spanking is punishment, not discipline. I have never spanked any of my children, howepver I did discipline them 24 hours a day and there were and continue to be very high standards of behavior and meaningful consequences to misbehavior.

In answer to what you posted about, and I love the conversation that you began and hope that others will remain respectful, I believe that what you and I feel is missing is exactly the same thing: a meaningful connection between the parents and the child. When you question how two people can cohabitate and the parent can be so disconnected from such a disturbed child, I completely agree. I also completely agree that growing up in a home with no discipline is terribly detrimental to a child. I just disagree that it has anything to do with spanking, I think if anything spanking further jeapordizes the connection.

Thanks for opening up the dialogue, I think it's an important topic.

With respect.

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Response to Happyhippychick (Reply #17)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 04:51 PM

19. I appreciate the respectful post. I also understand the distinction between discipline and

spanking. However, I don't have a problem with spanking as a means of discipline, since as I mentioned I was spanked, and my husband was, and we could not come from more loving families. Heck Ward Cleaver spanked the Beaver, though we never saw it, but you could deduce that from the conversations, and no one ever doubted that Ward and June Cleever loved their children. I realize that in this day and age (2012) spanking would not be permitted in most communities and that is just a fact so a parent will have to have other means of instilling discipline which may not include spanking. However, as a parent I remain adament that sometimes I think as a parent you may need to get your child's attention, moreso than a timeout, or a grounding.

I know that the child psychologists like to say that if you spank your children you only make them fear you, but I'm comfortable with that. I know I feared my parents. My parents said what they meant and they meant what they said. The good thing is that they didn't have to spank me very often because I quickly learned the error of my ways. The same with my children. I had no problems with peer pressure, because no one could talk me into or pressure me into doing anything that I didn't want to do. I have no problem with knowing that my kids feared me. My kid also had no problem with peer pressure, and turned out to be leaders and not followers. I could not be more proud of them. And I still to this day hear from people all the time, often strangers about what great kids I have, but than I know that.

As a women of color, I knew that if I didn't discipline my children, the police would. I could not risk losing my children to the streets. I also know that my children would be held to a different standard than their white friends, schoolmates, and neighbors; but that is another subject altogether. I know non-minorities have trouble understanding this, but it's a burden that we bear, and I understand that life is not fair.

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Response to politicaljunkie41910 (Reply #19)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 06:29 PM

21. I understand your position and have great respect for you.

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Response to Happyhippychick (Reply #21)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 05:11 PM

54. How would you discipline a child with Schizoid Personality Disorder?

- Schizoid Personality Disorder: These individuals avoid social intimacy, have little interest in relationships, and have limited emotional range - often manifest as blunted affect. It is not the same as schizophrenia, although there is a familial association between the two. There is also a familial association between schizophrenia and insensitivity to pain.


http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2012/12/diagnosing-adam-lanza/266322/

In Adams case, spanking would not work because he was insensitive to pain.

"Time outs" don't work for these types because they don't want to play or communicate with others anyway. In fact, some view time outs as a reward.

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Response to FarCenter (Reply #54)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 05:26 PM

57. I don't believe in spanking or time outs, I use positive discipline. In your case I am

not familiar with children with schizoid personality so I couldn't say what would work for sure, have you tried ABA (behavioral therapy)?

Here's a link with some info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applied_behavior_analysis

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Response to Happyhippychick (Reply #17)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 04:12 AM

31. I can still feel my brain burn from the fear of my parents. And the sting of a bamboo switch.

For Political Junkie:
They chased me down the sidewalk, screaming, with a bamboo switch in their hand. I could run faster than they could.

What had I done to invoke their wrath?

I had left the house to play with the neighbor kids.

They called it "running off" like it was a big sin.

That's right, I was not supposed to play with the neighbor kids. Did they give me any alternatives, such as Girl Scouts?? No.

And they were educated, supposedly sensible people.My mother was a jailer.
They were insane. They didn't want me to have friends. They wanted to keep me enmeshed and co-dependent with them.

No boundaries.



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Response to Manifestor_of_Light (Reply #31)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 04:55 AM

35. Spanking and causing fear in children actually changes their brain chemistry. It also teaches them

that violence is the way to resolve problems. As a kid who was frequently "spanked" with a yardstick for many years - it took me a long time to get over it. Same thing with my brother who has alcoholism and al kinds of mental health issues. You probably didn't spank your kids as hard as my mother did - she would leave large welts on us.

An adult should be able to figure out a better way to discipline a child. I understand a bit more if you might be living in a dangerous environment.

People don't realize the ramifications that spanking can have but most in the psych field DO know.

You CAN have your children taken away for spanking them - especially if it is hard enough to leave marks. In the end, they would probably send you to parenting classes and return the child once they feel that you have learned better methods.

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Response to politicaljunkie41910 (Reply #12)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 04:52 AM

34. ugh. You are so wrong. Hitting teaches hitting. It teaches that force is a solution.

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Response to cali (Reply #34)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 04:56 AM

36. Yes - you are very correct.

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Response to politicaljunkie41910 (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 03:18 PM

9. Well said.

After Columbine one of the best explanations I saw was that the parents of those boys treated them like furniture. It has been noted elsewhere that these shooters seem to come from middle to upper middle class backgrounds. Could such materialism come to dominate the parent child relationship? I think so.

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Response to politicaljunkie41910 (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 03:24 PM

11. Have you ever tried to get someone referred for psych eval?

Ever tried to get someone you considered dangerous committed or forced to be evaluated?

I haven't either, but I know several people who have tried. No-go in each case. Until someone commits a crime there isn't much anybody can do.

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Response to oldhippie (Reply #11)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 03:51 PM

13. Not personally, but as I mentioned I know someone who threatened to kill her mother. This was a

girl who lived down the street from us, and had been a playmate of my daughter's growing up. This girl had been out of control for a long time, and was one whose parents were always trying to buy her cooperation with things. When she attacked her mother and the police were called and took her away, and her mother had her committed for 72 hours, her mother bought her a car after she got out to keep her from being mad at her.

I can tell you that what this girl needed was not a car, but the mother had no parenting skills, and the horse had left the barn many years ago.

But in response to your original question, I would have moved heaven and earth to get my child committed if I thought they needed professional help.

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Response to oldhippie (Reply #11)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 05:03 AM

37. The police have to be concerned that the person is a harm to themselves or others. The words suicide

or homicide are pretty key words that get a person sent in for evaluation. I used to work at a receiving facility. If the petition is signed by a mental health professional - especially a psychiatrist - that is usually pretty much a go.

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Response to politicaljunkie41910 (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 04:14 PM

16. Parents know...but it's still your "child"

Most everyone around can point to one or 10 kids/young adults like the monster from CT.

As a parent my wife and I work hard everyday to raise well rounded, active, and engaging children.

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Response to ileus (Reply #16)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 04:42 PM

18. Your kid can be well rounded, active, engaging, and still

suffer from mental illness--same as he or she could be all those wonderful things and still suffer a broken leg or the flu or thyroid problems.

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Response to ileus (Reply #16)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 05:09 PM

20. And I imagine as the parents, you would have done anything to help them.

If you suspected they there were mental impairments, I doubt that yuo would have complicated the matter further by introducing firearms into the mix. Now parents of troubled children may not be able to prevent them from gaining assault weapons on their own, but surely, you don't light the keg yourself.

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Response to politicaljunkie41910 (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 11:59 PM

22. 2020 hindsight

If it was so easy to connect the dots on a kid's behavior or so easy to be the parent of model adults the world would be a mighty different place.

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Response to politicaljunkie41910 (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 12:23 AM

23. this might blow your mind

however if we are going with theories, he might have shot her because he loved her the bestthat he could. He knew what he planned to do and didn't want her to go through the aftermath. Did a head shot because it was quick and over. It's happened before

This is what forensic post mortem investigations are all about, in time they may be able to tell us more.

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Response to Corgigal (Reply #23)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 12:39 AM

24. Then if he loved her so much and wanted to spare her, than why not just NOT DO IT.

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Response to politicaljunkie41910 (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 12:46 AM

25. My counselor told me once long before this

that people can't control themselves when they snap and have a episode. At the time we were talking about someone with anger issues and depression and I was asking her about it. The person said to me I would never hurt you no matter what.

But my counselor said you can't trust that, that they can't control themselves then.

My oldest daughter in high school was wild and told me she hated me, it was a very rough time. Now she is hard working manager making good money, doing a great job raising two kids and we are very close.

So how do you know what is normal rebellion and what is more? I wouldn't have known back then.

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #26)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 01:46 PM

46. Read that last night. Very powerful. n/t

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Response to politicaljunkie41910 (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 12:59 AM

27. I watch a lot of those true crime shows. This happens more often than you'd think.

I can think of several instances off the top of my head where children killed their parents. In fact, if a teen kills anyone, it seems they most often kill one or more in the family.

The Amityville horror guy killed his whole family, the family in the northeast whose son Chris drove home from college and beat his father to death with a bat or something and also his mother (but his mother didn't die), those two brothers who killed their parents (the two dark haired teens whose parents were filthy rich, and there was a televised trial....what were their names?). Then there was a teen girl who got some boys she knew to kill her father and stepmother for money (again, they were beaten to death...and the stepmother's throat was slashed). Then there was the girl who got her low class boyfriend to kill her parents because they didn't think he was good enough for her - they were killed for the money (otherwise, they would have just run away together).

Then there was another instance where the boy who attends a famous ivy league college in another town and is dating an ivy league girl (both of them nerds), concocts an elaborate plan to drive home in the night, go in, and kill his parents, then go back to school and pretend to be shocked at the deaths (he did not pretend to be sad, the cops noticed). It was for the money. Parents were apparently good, nice people. His plan wasn't good enough, though. The cops caught on quickly.

And many more instances. Happens a lot, apparently. In none of those instances, obviously, did the parents suspect their child would kill them. And in most instances, the deaths were very violent and painful...beating them to death, stabbing them, etc.

The kids can be rich or poor. The kids can have a troublesome past with their parents, or have a past of being good kids with loving relationships with their parents. I find it hard to believe that parents can't tell their kids have this dark side. How could Ted Bundy's parents and friends not see SOMETHING wrong with him? And yet, I hear it over and over again, that parents and family members and friends never suspected the kid could do such a thing.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #27)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 01:28 AM

28. In Reply to "those two brothers who killed their parents"

The Menendez brothers

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Response to politicaljunkie41910 (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 05:07 AM

38. Read the Yahoo story about his mother

She was aware of his problems, but apparently trying to deal with them by herself. She even tried homeschooling him. The fact that she was "taking care" of him when he was 20, living at home, shows that she was doing what she thought was best for him.

His parents' divorce was not a bitter one, and the father took good financial care of his ex and kids, even giving them the 3100 sq ft home he had bought, so that the mother would never have to work again.

Nancy Lunza was a relatively new gun owner; clearly she didn't take a course on gun safety, because she would have had plenty of money to buy a gun safe. That was obviously a huge mistake, knowing her son's problems. Who knows, maybe one reason she got the guns was that she was secretly afraid of him, too. It's not unusual for parents to fear their severely mentally ill offspring, even as they love them. And they don't want to tell anybody, for fear their kids will go to jail or prison--because, thanks to St. Ronnie, that's where the authorities prefer to dump people who desperately need mental health care.

I'm going to start a thread with a story written by one of these moms, who was told she would have to wait until her 13-year-old boy committed a crime before they could do anything about him.

But for now, this story provides some insight:
http://news.yahoo.com/gunmans-mother-kept-trials-home-life-hidden-010414000.html

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Response to politicaljunkie41910 (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 12:01 PM

40. So, Adam Lanza's parents should have hit him

So he wouldn't have killed people.

One of the biggest posts on here over this, that's for sure.


(and, sociopaths are manipulators and emotional chameleons)

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #40)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 01:35 PM

42. If that's all you took from what I said than so be it.

I spent a lot of time with my children talking, listening, teaching, correcting, playing and loving them, not just warehouseing them. I knew what was going on in their lives and I didn't just drop them off at the movies or amusement parks because I wanted to play Bunko. Raising kids is hard work and there's conflict, but I know many parents who will do anything to pacify their kids, just so they don't have to deal with them. Spanking is not the same as abusing them, and my generation was and I make no apologies for doing so. My kids love me, respect me and visit often, as I do with them. I have plenty of co-workers who have pictures of their pets on their desks, and never hear from their children. I'm not concerned with other people's opinion here.

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Response to politicaljunkie41910 (Reply #42)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 01:42 PM

44. You really need to study up on sociopaths

They fool experts.

And, if you advocate spanking in an OP, of course you will be called on it.

I am still rather that you declare if Lanza's parents had hit him, he wouldn't have murdered 20+ people. Just astounding.

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Response to politicaljunkie41910 (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 12:09 PM

41. As uncomprehending as you may be, the fact is you

can't possibly know what's going on in someone else's home. Until you raise a child with disabilities, you can't begin to understand their situation. Try a little compassion instead of blame, why don't you.

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Response to Sheldon Cooper (Reply #41)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 01:38 PM

43. I'll reserve my compassion for the 26 victims who were shot at the school, thank you.

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Response to politicaljunkie41910 (Reply #43)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 01:50 PM

47. It's not surprising that you can't feel for both.

It's easier when things are black and white, isn't it? No reflection needed.

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Response to Sheldon Cooper (Reply #47)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 05:24 PM

56. +1 n/t

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Response to Sheldon Cooper (Reply #41)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 01:43 PM

45. +1

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Response to Sheldon Cooper (Reply #41)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 11:00 PM

68. I was trying to find a polite way to say the same thing

Thank you for finding the right words.

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Response to Sheldon Cooper (Reply #41)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 02:55 PM

75. A child with disabilities

No convincing evidence of it here. What we do see is violence beyond anything we can imagine. Would we automatically dx someone with mental illness if they shot the boss who fired him for reasons the shooter believed unfair? Typically not- it seems possible to see a trail of logic to understand such an event. We can comprehend extreme rage to events we also see as realistic to our own experience.

We have no clue what was happening in the family. A sense of self hate, rage, and other precipitating factors of violence can be hidden. When I was in high school a friend shot himself, to the shock of everyone- especially the family.


Crisis counseling and suicide prevention has taught me that what appears to be a simple misunderstanding between parent and child can lead to suicide. It's not unusual for parents to be caught completely by surprise when one of their children attempts suicide.
http://www.parenting-healthy-children.com/counseling-and-suicide.html

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Response to politicaljunkie41910 (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 04:19 PM

49. read "I am Adam Lanza's mother"

an amazing article and completely relevant to your OP

http://gawker.com/5968818/i-am-adam-lanzas-mother

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Response to Enrique (Reply #49)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 05:38 PM

58. Yes, I'm guessing there are few here eloquently passing judgment that have actually been emotionally

involved in this type of situation. And the information is sketchy. A real psych eval say for a divorce case...parent or child...can cost $5,000 - $10,000. And then what you get is a high-priced diagnosis, talk therapy at $150 for 45 minute and meds.

Mothers don't routinely throw their kids out on the street because there are problems, and there was no where else for him to go but prison. Pretty sure he couldn't work.

I never hear any options or suggestions as to what she should have done, except get him therapy and probably meds, which I'm pretty sure she did. He was or had been in counseling. And, the school likely told her he had to take some pretty strong psychotropic meds to stay. They can be deadly dangerous themselves. Adderall just for ADHD was a mess, for the most part.

Dad left with a new woman...what's that about? And Mom's dead...and getting horrible blame. Stop with the "she asked for it" already, which is just another version of "she should have".

Imagine the 24-year-old Ryan, even after being falsely taken in for questioning in handcuffs, grieving his brother, listening or reading about his dead mother.

For shame. Monday Morning Quarterbacking is inappropriate in this situation.

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Response to Enrique (Reply #49)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 02:38 PM

74. And don't forget to read some other posts from that same mother.

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Response to politicaljunkie41910 (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 04:20 PM

50. Wasn't there a recent movie about this? "We Need to Talk About Kevin"?

It's actually in my DVR queue as we speak. I was planning on watching it in the next couple of days, but Friday's events were a little too real for it to be considered an escape.

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Response to politicaljunkie41910 (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 04:36 PM

51. Essentially you are just insisting your knowledge must apply to everyone else. Doesn't seem very

wise to me. You can insist you are right but you might as easily be wrong.

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Response to politicaljunkie41910 (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 04:45 PM

52. How about we talk about psychotropic drugs. They can CAUSE schizophrenic-like behavior.

I am getting very tired of people acting like Judge and Jury who havent a clue other than a couple of Lifetime movies. Oh, and spanking...back to Dr. Spock. Get a grip, people.

They are called drug cocktails, for the more "severely disturbed". Can you tell me about that? Do you have evn the slightest experience with a child or adolescent with behavior on the autistic scale, developmentally and emotionally disturbed? Have y ou lived with it? Had to take them to doctor after doctor and drug after drug?

No one is ever going to "admit" he was on psychotropoics and no doctor will admit to administering them because it is privileged information. Auutism behavior is very internal and also explosive, but not premeditative. That would be the drugs, IMHO. Maybe some can compare to an acid or LSD trip...that can happen, especially when switching the "cocktails". It happened to a whole generation or two of "well-adjusted" kids. As a normally introverted person that he seemed to be, can suddenly be unleashed to the extreme opposite and do heinous things.

So you all tell me. What do you do with a suicidal teenager? What? I'm waiting. Well, first you get a divorce because Dad wants a life and a new wife and Mom is well-paid to be at home. That settles that.

You know what happens when you take a suicidal teenager to a hospital? One of three things. Either s/he changes their mind on the way and shift the tone and talk the parent into having rethought it. Or, they take them in a room, give them something to calm them...either way they go home the same day they got there. For those still over the top, they have small psych wards they will keep them up to 3 days, heavily medicate them so they don't hurt anyone there, then send them home. (Hope you have emergency room health care...this is one pricy visit.)

Oh yeah, and one more thing...head injuries. Many of these kids were in accidents or injuries in school sports (very common) and had Minimal Traumatic Brian Injury...presents a lot like autism. I could keep going...but this self-righteous claptrap about things people know absolutely nothing about is disgsusting.

Got some other ideas? Just about leaves Juvenile Hall. You going to make that decision? Conflict...you want to talk about conflict? Pleases spare me unless you have any personal knowlegde about your ramblings.

For general information...and you can't just take a couple...you have to stay on them for a period of time because sometimes they "settle down" if not, well, here we go again.

These brands come and go...just long enough for the manufacturer to "get their research money back plus thousands of times profit" then the real side effects are allowed to come out, discarded, and another one pops up...rinse, and repeat.


•intramuscular powder for injection, intramuscular powder for injection extended release
Get emergency medical help if you have any of these signs of an allergic reaction while taking olanzapine (the active ingredient contained in Zyprexa) hives; difficulty breathing; swelling of your face, lips, tongue, or throat.

Stop using olanzapine and call your doctor at once if you have any of these serious side effects:

•very stiff (rigid) muscles, high fever, tremors, sweating, confusion, fast or uneven heartbeats, slow heart rate, feeling like you might pass out;

•twitching or uncontrollable movements of your eyes, lips, tongue, face, arms, or legs;

•trouble speaking or swallowing;

•dry mouth, thirst, feeling very hot (with or without sweating), urinating less than usual or not at all;

•high blood sugar (increased thirst, loss of appetite, fruity breath odor, increased urination, drowsiness, dry skin, nausea, and vomiting);

•sudden numbness or weakness, confusion, or problems with vision, speech, or balance;

•fever, chills, body aches, flu symptoms, sores in your mouth and throat;

•swelling in your hands or feet;

•changes in personality, unusual thoughts or behavior, hallucinations, or thoughts about hurting yourself; or

•upper stomach pain, itching, loss of appetite, dark urine, clay-colored stools, jaundice (yellowing of the skin or eyes).

Less serious side effects of olanzapine may include:

•weight gain (more likely in teenagers), increased appetite;

•headache, dizziness, drowsiness, feeling tired or restless;

•memory problems;

•stomach pain, constipation, loss of bladder control;

•back pain, pain in your arms or legs;

•numbness or tingly feeling;

•breast swelling or discharge (in women or men); or

•missed menstrual periods.

This is not a complete list of side effects and others may occur. Call your doctor for medical advice about side effects.

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Response to libdem4life (Reply #52)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 05:52 PM

63. ((crickets)))

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Response to Cetacea (Reply #63)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 10:44 PM

66. Thank you for sharing.

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Response to libdem4life (Reply #66)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 03:25 AM

69. I was referring to the utter lack of response to your excellent point.

I am not anti-meds but there is a reason why SSRIs have black box warnings. And they are being distributed like candy, even my GPs.

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Response to Cetacea (Reply #69)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 01:47 PM

71. So sorry ... kind of new on these boards. The anti-psychotics take it to another level and I'd bet

money he's been on them for quite a while. The former hair cutters described the exact behavior on a kid on heavy medication, and sometimes more than one. Also, the "can't feel pain" is another by-product. Think One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest. We don't even have level of care anymore, so they're drugged and sent home.

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Response to libdem4life (Reply #52)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 05:41 AM

70. Add the sometimes very severe

effects from withdrawal if one has been on certain drugs for a significant period of time. The WD may produce a wide variety of horrible side effects including psychotic events.

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Response to pecwae (Reply #70)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 01:55 PM

72. Absolutely. The psychiatrists admit they have no idea how these powerful drugs will effect the brain

from person to person. It is trial and error...guesswork. Sometimes the kid is so knocked-out, it can cause the lack of feeling physical pain, it can numb his entire being, which sometimes is necessary I guess...and sometimes they decide not to deal with it and go off...really bad idea.

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Response to politicaljunkie41910 (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 05:24 PM

55. With respect, this is pure conjecture. I know you want it to make sense but trust me, you don't know

This young man was living in a reality that was far different from the one people who feel such things as contempt inhabit, if the reports about him are true. It's hard to understand that people can think in ways that are utterly different, can believe in the impossible, the unfathomable. It's entirely possible that he followed this line of thought:

I have to die. Mother says she loves me and if I kill myself she will suffer, so I will prevent her from suffering. I have to save those kids, The world is going to end and they will go through terrible things so we all have to die so we won't suffer.

Note: I AM NOT CLAIMING I KNOW WHAT HE WAS THINKING. But I am in the field and know how terribly, aberrantly askew thought processes can go. I also know how important it is to feel safe through understanding something and believing someone did something wrong so you can believe it won't happen to those who don't do the wrong thing. But it's not like that.

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Response to nolabear (Reply #55)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 05:41 PM

59. or overdosed or underdosed on Zyprexa or something similar. That would account for it, too.

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Response to libdem4life (Reply #59)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 05:44 PM

60. So many things might, but none do. We can only get as much info as we can and estimate.

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Response to politicaljunkie41910 (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 06:11 PM

64. Schizophrenia often develops in young adults

My ex-husband worked with a guy who just descended into madness in his early 20s. He started mumbling and talking to himself, picked up the phone and "talked" to some imaginary person for 10-15 minutes, finally it got to the point he couldn't do his job anymore and he got fired. I don't what happened to that poor guy after he lost his job. I know he was living at home with his parents at the time, but I don't know what steps they were taking to get him help or if they even realized how bad it was getting. I knew this guy before he got sick; it was just awful to see him fall apart, and there was really nothing we could do.

I realize that Adam Lanza seemed to have had serious problems for some time, but maybe things started to get worse and his mother didn't (or refused to) believe things had gotten that bad.

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Response to susanr516 (Reply #64)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 10:51 PM

67. This is so true. And lots of kids nowdays smoke pot, which helps to mellow out the swings.

but can make it worse. Age 20 ... for real professionals or those truly concerned... is considered a pivotal age, as well. Adult onset schizophrenia is not uncommon. Lots of young folk, mostly boys, have also had high school minor head injuries/concussions from contact sports, drug encounters which aggravates the situation. Stress also, makes it worse. Mental health providers have nothing but medication for this situation.

There are so many factors and it grieves me to experience the ignorance and judgment of people who have no clue.

His mother and father and stepmother may have had a clue and lots of money, but not many real, curative options.

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Response to susanr516 (Reply #64)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 03:06 PM

78. happened to a friend of mine in high school too

He was a normal guy up until around age 19-20. He really came unglued in college. His parents got him help for a while at a facility, but after a few months he seemed to be responding well to medication and they sent him back to college. He hung himself from a tree shortly afterwards. Devastating.

Had a cousin through marriage (not directly related) who also developed schizophrenia in her twenties. She was living at home and her parents were trying to keep an eye on her and get her help. One day she woke up, cut all the cords to every electrical device and left home wearing nothing but her pajamas. She turned up eight years later on the other side of the country in DC living as a homeless person. My aunt helped her out for a while. Got her into a facility where she thrived after getting on proper medications. They moved her to a more relaxed home and she again disappeared. No one has ever heard from her again.

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Response to politicaljunkie41910 (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 06:24 PM

65. It's true...what you say in some respects...but, not All Parents are Equal in

their abilities to cope with things that are "unexpected" that happen to their kids...and the access to medical care varies so much all over this country that we can't expect all parents to have access to a wide variety of options (given their location) or that even the Top Areas for Med Care in this Country (where access is good to great minds) means that a parent can find a way to access the care they need from a doctor that can really drill down into their problem.

It requires carting your kid from doctor to doctor and monitoring day and night and one has to be highly sensitive to differences of treatment to be able to figure out...and if the Doc said it will work...you figure THEY are the Ones WHO KNOW...and an average parent isn't going to be able to question that.

Uneven Medical Care, Uneven Access to Standardized Reviews of what is an appropriate treatment for a condition with kids who have broad spectrums of diagnoses in the ADD/ADT/Asperger's and all kinds of other possible Diagnosis of symptoms means that Parents and Doctors BOTH can be confused and rely on "hit or miss" treatments because who could know with all the New Drugs and Parents demanding and needing help with a child that drives the family crazy and doctors who rely on info from Big Pharmaceutical companies who are just TESTING on their kids because the DEMAND for IMMEDIATE RELIEF is so heart breakingly urgent from these parents trying to cope.

There's a lot to think about our Medicated kids today and how they deal, their family deals and that it's not something every parent can be an expert on when they are trying to do their best to understand something they never expected to see.

Just Saying...we need more Empathy and Sympathy because the rates of all these disorders are rising in our population and to throw the BLAME around isn't going to help anyone. It just makes all feel bad and helpless and BLAMED for something they had no control over.

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Response to politicaljunkie41910 (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 03:01 PM

76. I think he feared his mother

which is why he waited until she was asleep.

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Response to politicaljunkie41910 (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 03:05 PM

77. Well, no one knows any of these things until they have children

and then what? There are no social services for parents- no way to turn a child in for mental health hospitalizations. They can only be arrested and jailed. No other recourses- I am sure you must have read that thread going around titled something like "I am xxx's mother" .

Once parents find themselves with children in this shape the type of help offered is obviously inadequate. There need to be mental institutions for children and young adults who do pose a threat to society of themselves to be put into once again.

I will never forgive Ronald Reagan for starting the shut down of these institutions.

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