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Sun Dec 16, 2012, 01:04 AM

Connecticut Shootings: The Lessons From Dunblane, Scotland - Where 16 Children Were Massacred In '96

Last edited Sun Dec 16, 2012, 10:09 AM - Edit history (1)


=snip=
Massacred
What happened on 13 March 1996 was the worst school shooting ever perpetrated in Britain. Sixteen children were killed - most of them just five years old. Their teacher was also shot.

= snip=

Out of the massacre came a determination that something should be done to prevent a similar horror in future.

There was the Snowdrop Campaign, calling for a ban on the private ownership and use of handguns in Britain. The campaign was named after the small spring flowers which had already begun to come out on that cold March morning. Some 700,000 people signed the Snowdrop petition and the law was changed.

There was legislation too, raising standards of school security across the UK. No longer would it be easy for an unauthorised adult to wander into a primary school gymnasium with four handguns and 700 rounds of ammunition, as Thomas Hamilton had done in Dunblane.

In Scotland, the link between the availability of guns and the number of people shot dead every year is accepted. Since Dunblane, the public have remained firmly in favour of keeping firearms out of private hands.

This year, five people have been killed by guns in Scotland. That's in line with the rest of the UK per head of population and a death rate 50 times lower than in the United States

Full article: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-20736167


Dunblane school massacre

=snip=

Gun Control Network was founded in the aftermath of the shootings and was supported by some parents of victims at Dunblane and of the Hungerford Massacre. Bereaved families and their friends also initiated a campaign to ban private gun ownership, named the Snowdrop Petition (because March is snowdrop time in Scotland), which gained 705,000 signatures in support and was supported by some newspapers, including the Sunday Mail, a Scottish newspaper whose own petition to ban handguns had raised 428,279 signatures within five weeks of the massacre.

The Cullen Inquiry into the massacre recommended that the government introduce tighter controls on handgun ownership and consider whether an outright ban would be in the public interest. The report also recommended changes in school security and vetting of people working with children under 18. The Home Affairs Select Committee agreed with the need for restrictions on gun ownership but stated that a handgun ban was not appropriate.

In response to this public debate, the then-current Conservative government introduced a ban on all cartridge ammunition handguns with the exception of .22 calibre single-shot weapons in England, Scotland and Wales. Following the 1997 General Election, the Labour government of Tony Blair introduced the Firearms (Amendment) (No. 2) Act 1997, banning the remaining .22 cartridge handguns in England, Scotland and Wales, and leaving only muzzle-loading and historic handguns legal, as well as certain sporting handguns (e.g. "Long-Arms") that fall outside the Home Office Definition of a "Handgun" due to their dimensions. The ban does not affect Northern Ireland, the Isle of Man, or the Channel Islands.

More: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_school_massacre#Gun_control

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Reply Connecticut Shootings: The Lessons From Dunblane, Scotland - Where 16 Children Were Massacred In '96 (Original post)
Turborama Dec 2012 OP
Turborama Dec 2012 #1
HiPointDem Dec 2012 #2
RetroLounge Dec 2012 #3
HiPointDem Dec 2012 #5
arthritisR_US Dec 2012 #15
HiPointDem Dec 2012 #16
arthritisR_US Dec 2012 #17
RetroLounge Dec 2012 #18
Cha Dec 2012 #4
HiPointDem Dec 2012 #6
FunkyLeprechaun Dec 2012 #7
HiPointDem Dec 2012 #8
Turborama Dec 2012 #9
HiPointDem Dec 2012 #10
Turborama Dec 2012 #11
HiPointDem Dec 2012 #12
Turborama Dec 2012 #13
HiPointDem Dec 2012 #14

Response to Turborama (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 01:36 AM

1. Piers Morgan cites Dunblane as he lashes out at US gun control failure after Connecticut massacre

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Response to Turborama (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 01:45 AM

2. and gun crime continued rising in the uk, reaching a high circa 2005, when it began to drop.

 

but since gun crime wasn't very high in the first place, neither the rise nor the drop were very spectacular. gun homicide rate currently is about what it was in 1983.

there's no much evidence that this legislation made much difference as the rise and fall mirrors patterns in the rest of europe.

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #2)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 01:47 AM

3. or you can cover your ears

and yell "I can't hear you"

same difference

RL

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Response to RetroLounge (Reply #3)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 02:06 AM

5. i hear you perfectly well. yes, the uk tightened gun laws after the dunblane shooting. But it

 

didn't stop the next mass shooting.

The Cumbria shootings was a killing spree that occurred on 2 June 2010 when a lone gunman, Derrick Bird, killed 12 people and injured 11 others before killing himself in Cumbria, England. Along with the 1987 Hungerford massacre and the 1996 Dunblane massacre, it is one of the worst criminal acts involving firearms in British history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumbria_shootings

UK didn't have anything like the US rate of mass shootings (or gun violence generally) before dunblane or the tighter legislation, and it still doesn't.

perhaps you could consider the possibility that the availability of firearms isn't the only factor involved in gun crime or mass shootings.

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #5)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 10:32 AM

15. Terrific, cite one case from 2005 and then another

from 5 years later. Neglect to point out that there have been 16 mass shootings in the U S in 2012 alone and none in Scotland.

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Response to arthritisR_US (Reply #15)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 10:38 AM

16. that's true. but uk had way lower rates of mass shootings than the us even before they

 

tightened their laws.

my point is that even the tightest laws in the world didn't prevent a mass shooting.

and even a near-total ban on guns, as in china, doesn't prevent mass murders.

these kind of mass shootings took a sharp jump in 1980 and have become increasingly common since. doesn't that make you wonder about anything but guns?

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #16)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 11:41 AM

17. Just because you can't prevent something 100%

doesn't mean you shouldn't proceed to attempt. I can't prevent all collisions at a 4 way intersection but lights certainly have prevented many a collision and deaths.

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #5)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 12:32 PM

18. How can you hear anything?

Your ears are plugged up with NRA talking points.



RL

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Response to Turborama (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 01:53 AM

4. Yes, I just saw this Tweet on the obama diary..

amk4obama

@amk4obama Hey america. Here is something you can learn from the brits. #nra. pic.twitter.com/7g4bt9Oz




http://theobamadiary.com/2012/12/15/how-long-to-sing-this-song/

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Response to Cha (Reply #4)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 02:19 AM

6. but there *was* another mass shooting...2010

 

The Cumbria shootings was a killing spree that occurred on 2 June 2010 when a lone gunman, Derrick Bird, killed 12 people and injured 11 others before killing himself in Cumbria, England. Along with the 1987 Hungerford massacre and the 1996 Dunblane massacre, it is one of the worst criminal acts involving firearms in British history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumbria_shootings


UK had only a handful of mass shootings before the tighter legislation, and the tighter legislation didn't end mass shootings in the uk.

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #6)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 04:24 AM

7. Derrick Bird

Legally owned his shotgun, I had also heard that he had a rifle as well, that was also legally owned. He shot dead his brother and his lawyer first. Reloaded. Then a co-worker at a taxi rank. He then drove around shooting people at random. Other than Seascale (3 victims there), he shot dead two people at each location with his double-barreled shotgun and after shooting people he drove off and reloaded and did the same thing again until he drove to Boot and killed himself.

If Bird had something like the AR-15 the death toll would be higher. After the shooting, the UK imposed tighter restrictions on owning legal guns.

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Response to FunkyLeprechaun (Reply #7)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 04:33 AM

8. the fact remains: at the time he did the shooting, the uk had among the tightest laws in the

 

world (already tightened after another mass shooting) and he killed 12 people, which is a high body count.

The UK has a low murder rate and a low mass murder rate *before* the laws were tightened, and it still does. There's no strict correspondence between the availability of guns and murder or mass murder using guns.

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #8)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 08:59 AM

9. Where there are more guns there is more homicide

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Response to Turborama (Reply #9)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 09:11 AM

10. read the fine print:

 

We found that across developed countries, where guns are more available, there are more homicides. These results often hold even when the United States is excluded.


in other words, if we select 'developed countries' (whatever that means, probably western europe and japan) and compare them to the us, there will be a strong relationship.

if we exclude the us (a big outlier), we either won't find a relationship, or won't find a strong relationship.

and if we include "non-developed countries" we won't find a relationship.


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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #10)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 10:12 AM

11. Faulty analysis

The fact remains the same.

More guns = more homicides.

Fact.


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Response to Turborama (Reply #11)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 10:15 AM

12. fact -- depending on how you select the data you analyse. if we compare the us & costa rica,

 

for example, we won't find that relationship.

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #12)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 10:19 AM

13. Fact - You haven't provided one citation

To back up your "facts".

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Response to Turborama (Reply #13)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 10:31 AM

14. fact: i've provided lots of citations in other posts, like this one:

 

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021997746

and here's some data from it, including the factoid about costa rica:

The key facts are:

The US has the highest gun ownership rate in the world - an average of 88 per 100 people. That puts it first in the world for gun ownership - and even the number two country, Yemen, has significantly fewer - 54.8 per 100 people

But the US does not have the worst firearm murder rate - that prize belongs to Honduras, El Salvador and Jamaica. In fact, the US is number 28, with a rate of 2.97 per 100,000 people.

Puerto Rico tops the world's table for firearms murders as a percentage of all homicides - 94.8%. It's followed by Sierra Leone in Africa and Saint Kitts and Nevis in the Caribbean.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/jul/22/gun-homicides-ownership-world-list


Countries with higher murder by gun rates than the US & lower rates of gun ownership:
gun murders/100,000 + guns/100

(US = 2.97/100,000 + 88/100)


Argentina: 3.02/100,000
10.2/100

Bahamas: 15.2/100,000
5.3/100

Barbados: 2.99/100,000
7.8/100

Belize: 21.82/100,000
10/100

Brazil: 18.1/100,000
8/100

Colombia: 27.9/100,000
5.9/100

Costa Rica: 4.59/100,000
9.9/100

Dominican Republic: 16.3/100,000
5.1/100

Ecuador: 12.73/100,000
1.3/100

etc....


The Small Arms Survey is an independent research project located at the Graduate Institute of International and Development Studies in Geneva, Switzerland. It provides impartial and public information on all aspects of small arms and light weapons, as a resource for governments, policy-makers, researchers, and activists, as well as research on small arms issues.

The Survey monitors national and international initiatives (governmental and non-governmental), and acts as a forum and clearinghouse for the sharing of information. It also disseminates best practice measures and initiatives dealing with small arms issues.

The Small Arms Survey mandate is to look at all aspects of small arms and armed violence. It provides research and analysis to support Governments to reduce the incidence of armed violence and illicit trafficking through our evidence-based analysis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_Arms_Survey

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