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Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:22 PM

 

I now see the point of the RKBA emphasis on mental illness & not gun control laws

I think I see now the point the Delicate Flowers (gun nutz) are making. That this is about mental illness and it has nothing to do with gun control.

The mental illness that I'm talking about is the mental illness that results in somebody thinking guns will help them out of their various issues, or will save them from all their imaginary foes, or that they will become Rambo and be acclaimed as a Mighty Warrior.

64 replies, 2615 views

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Reply I now see the point of the RKBA emphasis on mental illness & not gun control laws (Original post)
bongbong Dec 2012 OP
Recursion Dec 2012 #1
bongbong Dec 2012 #2
Recursion Dec 2012 #3
bongbong Dec 2012 #6
Recursion Dec 2012 #7
bongbong Dec 2012 #13
Recursion Dec 2012 #17
bongbong Dec 2012 #23
bayareamike Dec 2012 #52
bongbong Dec 2012 #57
nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 #8
Recursion Dec 2012 #9
nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 #10
Recursion Dec 2012 #11
nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 #12
bongbong Dec 2012 #14
Recursion Dec 2012 #18
nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 #19
Recursion Dec 2012 #20
nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 #21
Recursion Dec 2012 #22
nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 #28
Recursion Dec 2012 #30
nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 #38
former-republican Dec 2012 #43
nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 #44
former-republican Dec 2012 #46
nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 #48
former-republican Dec 2012 #49
nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 #50
former-republican Dec 2012 #54
nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 #56
Warren Stupidity Dec 2012 #32
bongbong Dec 2012 #24
nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 #29
bongbong Dec 2012 #34
nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 #37
bongbong Dec 2012 #40
nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 #42
former-republican Dec 2012 #26
Recursion Dec 2012 #27
former-republican Dec 2012 #33
Recursion Dec 2012 #35
former-republican Dec 2012 #36
Squinch Dec 2012 #4
riderinthestorm Dec 2012 #47
RomneyLies Dec 2012 #5
bongbong Dec 2012 #16
Cali_Democrat Dec 2012 #15
jeff47 Dec 2012 #25
bongbong Dec 2012 #31
Gregorian Dec 2012 #39
Skittles Dec 2012 #41
RoccoR5955 Dec 2012 #45
RetroLounge Dec 2012 #51
patrice Dec 2012 #53
ellisonz Dec 2012 #55
Zoeisright Dec 2012 #59
RegieRocker Dec 2012 #58
bongbong Dec 2012 #61
RegieRocker Dec 2012 #64
libdem4life Dec 2012 #60
bongbong Dec 2012 #62
libdem4life Dec 2012 #63

Response to bongbong (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:23 PM

1. It was already illegal for a 20 year old to have a handgun.

What "it's about" is the fact that a lot of us don't believe gun control laws will actually make guns more difficult to acquire in any meaningful way.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #1)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:25 PM

2. Oh yeah!

 

Just like speed limits don't stop anybody from speeding. When I drive, I'm always dodging people doing 120 (which pretty much every car, even a Civic, will do nowadays.

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Response to bongbong (Reply #2)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:27 PM

3. Well, drug laws are my usual example. It's very easy to get pot or coke.

But, your example hits on the important difference between banning things and banning behavior. One works and the other doesn't.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #3)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:30 PM

6. The rhetorical devices that Delicate Flowers use to worship their Precious

 

> and banning behavior. One works and the other doesn't.

Such an important "distinction" when the possession of guns is for one purpose only - the behavior of killing people.

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Response to bongbong (Reply #6)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:31 PM

7. Let me grant that point entirely: guns are completely evil and only useful for killing people

(I disagree, but I'm granting this for the sake of argument.)

Even so, banning them won't get rid of them any more than banning marijuana and cocaine got rid of them.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #7)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:36 PM

13. Fantasyland

 

> Even so, banning them won't get rid of them any more than banning marijuana and cocaine got rid of them.

I guess when England banned guns it didn't work either.

Another example of the alternate reality, fantasy-based, that Delicate Flowers live in.

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Response to bongbong (Reply #13)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:40 PM

17. They're an island without 300 million guns in private hands

We're a continent with two of the longest unguarded borders in the world with 300 million guns in private hands.

Banning didn't get rid of marijuana. It didn't even make it particularly hard to find. Guns wouldn't be any different.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #17)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:51 PM

23. Oh yeah!

 

I bet those are the exact things that would make banning guns impossible!

Just like how Germany has close to zero gun violence but it shares a continent with the gun-crazy land of Russia.

Again, the alternate fantasyland you Delicate Flowers live in is quite a disgusting place.

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Response to bongbong (Reply #2)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:29 PM

52. Um, are you saying that speed limits actually prevent people from speeding? You obviously

haven't driven in CA have you? Officially the speed limit is usually 65, typically people drive at least 80 - 85 around here.

Perhaps we are agreeing that speed limits don't actually prevent speeding, but I'm likely interpreting your comment incorrectly.

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Response to bayareamike (Reply #52)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:57 PM

57. Nope

 

> but I'm likely interpreting your comment incorrectly.

Yep, you are.

80-90 is not speeding. My current car can do 160 MPH and I WANT THAT RIGHT, just like Delicate Flowers want their "right" to kill anybody they want to.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #1)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:31 PM

8. The evidence is not with you

States with tougher laws have lower gun violence, like direct correlation and shit.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #8)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:33 PM

9. States with tougher gun laws are richer and more liberal

I also notice you have to use "states" so that you can ignore the inconvenient results of DC's complete ban.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #9)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:34 PM

10. Enjoy your fantasies.

You live in it, seriously.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #10)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:35 PM

11. You do realize you're advocating for the US to have Connecticut's gun laws, right?

Just think about that.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #11)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:36 PM

12. Which statistically has less, not more, incidents.

Live your fantasy, you gun nut. And I rarely use that term.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #12)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:38 PM

14. Coincidences

 

Looks like we independently came to the same conclusion, fantasy-wise, about this fellow.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #12)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:41 PM

18. And we have the lowest murder rate in 40 years, nationally

Whatever we're doing now we're doing right, if you're just concerned about the number of people killed by guns.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #18)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:42 PM

19. And a mass shooting a month

Keep throwing statistics.

Here is a backhoe, use it liberally.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #19)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:43 PM

20. More than that, recently

I don't get it either. It's particularly awful because this is exactly the kind of shooting that laws are pretty much powerless to stop.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #20)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:46 PM

21. So let's throw our hands up

In despair and arm everybody!!!!

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #21)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:51 PM

22. Neither I nor anybody else is talking about arming everybody

And it's really disingenuous to keep saying that.

And I'm not throwing my hands up; I'm trying to pull your head away from the pointless windmill-tilting of trying to ban guns and focus on something constructive like access to mental health.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #22)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:01 PM

28. I am not talking of taking your precious away

You want to own them...fine...I want you to be licensed, and that includes background checks far more extensive than the joke we have in multiple states, at the least California, and range time. it also includes registration. if you lose it, and you don't report it to the cops, and it is used in the commission of a crime, guess what you delicate flower, that should be a felony, with jail time.

Stand your ground has to go...castle doctrine is more than fracking enough.

You want to own a military grade infantry weapon, see the bushmaster, fine...report for drill once a month with your local guard unit, that is the intent of the second amendment and Scalia made an ass of himself with Heller. Any careful read of it, in the historical context, with the contemporary letters and all point to...Switzerland as something they would approve. None of them would recognize the NRA (and yours) talking points.

I want the gun show loophole closed, like now...I want a ban of all extended clips nation wide, and once smart gun technology gets to very reliable, all civilian weapons should be back fitted, period.

But no, I don't want to take your precious away...go hug it. I know you cannot live without it.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #28)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:02 PM

30. Well, I was reserve, not Guard, and since I am law-abiding DC resident I don't own a weapon

But other than completely projecting a bunch of false bullshit on me out of your own head, good job.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #30)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:12 PM

38. You asked what I wanted done

Notice you go for projection.

I guess any rational...never mind. Have a good life...like most gun nuts. There is no reasoning...goodbye.

The iggy list grows every incident.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #38)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:28 PM

43. The point of this is to discuss common sense gun control .

 



He didn't do anything to warrant a attack like this.

Both sides have to give, it's not just one sided.
We have members that would like to see all guns outlawed.
not naming names..........

That is just as extreme as the person that wants laxer gun laws.

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Response to former-republican (Reply #43)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:39 PM

44. I want sane laws

And NRA talking points...lead to iggy lists.

And both sides have to give, this is why the US has the loosest gun laws, and the most armed society in the world. One side has been getting their way for too long. Will this be tipping point? I sure hope so, don't expect it.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #44)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:48 PM

46. When I mean both sides have to give

 

I mean we can't let the extremists dictate the conversation. On any side of this issue.

You can't have conversation with an extremist that wants all private ownership of firearms outlawed.

There is no logical reasoning with a person like that.

That is just as extreme as the militia type waiting for the government to take his guns.

Can't reason with a person like that either.

I like your posts and read them often .
We need common sense gun control that will reduce gun violence.

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Response to former-republican (Reply #46)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:52 PM

48. Yeah, but the person that just went to my iggy list

Is that extremist you are talking about. You can't talk to them, just as you can't talk to the let's ban 'me now...first there is no logistical way to do it.

But in my mind things like clip size and even types of guns have to be n the table. My reasoning is not how they look...but how they work. Potential ROF could be a good place to start. 300 rounds/ minute really do not belong in the streets, regardless of how they look.

My question is whether we can limit the receiver to do that, or we simply need to change the design. I think a single shot, not semi auto, aka you need to manually move the bullet to the firing chamber, see bolt action type off might have to be considered.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #48)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:03 PM

49. My personal opinion is a little different

 

I'm more concerned with handguns than rifles.

Most violent crimes and murders in this country are being committed by handguns.

Trying to change the design of a firearm in a mag fed weapon is not hard.
You make it a fixed mag design or have only a floor plate.

Saying all semi auto weapons being banned is not the answer.

It just get's ridiculous to me when they are outlawed by cosmetics alone.( I'm not saying you said that)
That was the 94 ban mostly

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Response to former-republican (Reply #49)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:24 PM

50. I know.

But we all could reduce the lethality, potentially, of that sig sauer 9mm, one of the most popular semis out there, by limiting the size of the clip. The same goes for Glocks. And just the size of the magazine does not work.

Many people who go on assault guns, oh my god! Have never been around them. Why I am focusing on the internal workings. Look at the M-1 Garand. The round is far more lethal than the .223...it just is. But it is limited to five shots, before you need to reload.

We should look at similar mechanism for all civilian weapons. That same Sig Sauer could fire as many as 300/rounds a minute. (Would not recommend it, oh the jamming and hot barrel) so we need to look for ways to reduce how much lead they can push through. The RKBA absolutists are against this. They are also against smart gun technology, which quite honest will be a large part of it. You take my gun away, enjoy the bludgeoning tool.

There are certain attachments, like the forward grip, that makes sense only in military or police forces.

But we need to look at ways to reduce the lethality.

And if anybody wants to have a military grade weapon...I mean it...go drill with the local guard unit. That is what the Founders really meant.

Of course, we need to deal with the larger societal issues.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #50)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:39 PM

54. I think we're pretty close on most views when it comes

 

to high cap mags.

I am very curious to see how the discussion on this will be started by the President
when we have so many other things looming , the dreaded fiscal cliff.

I'm about sick of that also , raise taxes on the rich and get over it.
The majority of the country supports it.



I also think people have a very short memory and so does the media.
Lets see if this is even being talked about a month from now.

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Response to former-republican (Reply #54)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:53 PM

56. I fear we will be having the same discussion

Over another pile of bodies. They are that frequent now.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #22)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:04 PM

32. We should wait until there are 600m guns here, and then think about limits.

Or maybe wait until there are a billion guns floating around, and think that perhaps that really might be a problem.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #21)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:53 PM

24. Walking NRA Talking Point regurgitator

 

I believe we've found a parrot that can type on a keyboard!

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Response to bongbong (Reply #24)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:01 PM

29. Hey my parrots are not that well disciplined

One is on shoulder as I type.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #29)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:04 PM

34. The gungeon

 

Go there if you want to learn how to train parrots.

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Response to bongbong (Reply #34)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:10 PM

37. I trashed the whole gungeon yesterday

Can't wait for them to go back into lockdown.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #37)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:17 PM

40. I'm banned from the gungeon

 

My posts about how Delicate Flowers are cowards and scared children (since they need guns to face the world) made the mod and denizens over there a bit too uncomfortable.

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Response to bongbong (Reply #40)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:24 PM

42. Well, they are delicate flowers.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #11)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:54 PM

26. I would be fine with that.

 

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Response to former-republican (Reply #26)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:56 PM

27. Well... OK but, I mean... they didn't help here, right?

So why?

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Response to Recursion (Reply #27)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:04 PM

33. Of course not

 

We need to go after criminal gangs if the real focus is reducing crime in this country.





FBI: Burgeoning gangs behind up to 80% of U.S. crime


http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-01-29-ms13_N.htm

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Response to former-republican (Reply #33)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:05 PM

35. And the crime rate is half of what it was 20 years ago

We've cut crime rates in half over the past 20 years. Why are we talking about trying new things? This is working.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #35)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:08 PM

36. Because I don't want to see honest law abiding people being afraid to live in

 

their community due to criminal gangs.

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Response to bongbong (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:28 PM

4. This family could afford all the mental health help they wanted. It didn't stop the GUNS.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #4)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:50 PM

47. +1. If the family didn't have guns, it wouldn't have been this kind of execution style slaughter nt

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Response to bongbong (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:28 PM

5. The Right to Kill Babies and Adults crowd will never give up their toys n/t

 

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Response to RomneyLies (Reply #5)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:39 PM

16. THAT's the mental illness I'm talking about

 

"This gun makes me MASTER of everyone around me! I'm not afraid of getting out from under my bed anymore!"

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Response to bongbong (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:39 PM

15. The gun nuts are so delicate, aren't they?

Mentally fragile.

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Response to bongbong (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:53 PM

25. I'm wondering how many of them are concerned about passing

a mental health evaluation in order to keep their guns.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #25)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:03 PM

31. They would highly prefer

 

To be quizzed on NRA Talking Points about how wonderful guns are.

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Response to bongbong (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:16 PM

39. Healthy people don't hate people. It's that simple.

And they don't make guns to use against each other.

Until we aggressively alter the way we use our taxes, we will have unhealthy people, and therefore a gun problem. But we can turn it around. But it will take a quantum change in how people think.

Just know that Germany passed laws making it a crime to use corporal punishment against children. I don't care if the government is peeping into our homes. This is at the heart of the issue. Either we start turning this world around, or we pass gun laws, and still have gun problems.

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Response to bongbong (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:20 PM

41. why can't you understand it is about both?

is that too hard of a concept?

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Response to bongbong (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:47 PM

45. The mental illness is

that the media have been making guns be a substitute for proper genitalia for quite some time in this country.
Too much gratuitous violence in ALL of the media. This has to stop. So does the ready availability of weapons of mass destruction, because that's what ANY gun with more than 6 bullets in it is. Anything that can be rapidly fired in a lethal manner should be banned.

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Response to bongbong (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:29 PM

51. Yup...

+1000

RL

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Response to bongbong (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:36 PM

53. If you think guns MAKE you safe, you're wrong, because you'll devalue other things that will make

the eventual threat of gun violence more and more likely, so that when it comes to a situation in which you do use your gun to make you safe, it's too late, even if you succeed in killing the threat the damage to your life and the lives of your loved ones has already been done, before that particular instance of violence even happened.

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Response to bongbong (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:40 PM

55. The gun scum has got to go!

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #55)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 06:03 PM

59. Gun scum.

Perfect.

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Response to bongbong (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 06:02 PM

58. Really now

 

then your rationale includes law enforcement and the military.

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Response to RegieRocker (Reply #58)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 06:27 PM

61. Funny!

 

> then your rationale includes law enforcement and the military.

That's their job, not their fantasy-life or mental illness.

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Response to bongbong (Reply #61)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 12:19 AM

64. That is a fantasy

 

thought. Stay in the illusion.

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Response to bongbong (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 06:21 PM

60. The mental illness focus is comfortable and convenient...BUT NOT ACCURATE.

forgive me for popping some bubbles around here, but getting help for someone with "mental health issues" is nearly impossible, especially if they have not "acted out". And when they do, they get at most, a 3-day stint in a psych facility and can check themselves out, barring a court order...which is nigh impossible to obtain.

I feel for these divorced parents, as well, as the mutual blame factor to "get revenge" or suspicions or allegations often occur that to influence custody or support...the other parent...either gender...can be enabling and the courts/mental health/Human Services will not take sides. (If it sounds like I've been there, I have.)

After that, they might get to go to a counselor for a few sessions, and maybe even see a psychiatrist...online for 15 minutes...maybe 30 minutes in person with private insurance...for medication. And psychiatric medication is a giant GUESSING GAME as they never know how a person will react to one of many psychiatric meds, and often go through a number of them and combinations of same. Throw in some illegal street stuff or legal alcohol or pot...take your pick, and it becomes a steep and slippery and often deadly slope. Throw in being over 18 with the legal capacity to not take the meds, and it's a lethal Russian Roulette...pun intended.

Court psychiatrists make $500,000 or more, verified by a friend who is a loan officer, at least in California. And Red State mental health services are even worse. This is unaffordable for the society or the individual families.

I am reminded of what happened when we went off the gold standard. It was required that every person who had gold, turn it in. It was law...illegal to hold gold. It also was referred to as a supposed Constitutional Right to own and hold gold...until it wasn't. It worked.

I am also reminded of what we did and are doing with marijuana ... allow reasonable use personal use for those who are addicted or just enjoy the high ... with strict penalties on large traffickers. It has not been perfect, but it is slowly working.

So, same with what is a million times more detrimental to our national safety ... precious first graders and other innocent victims ... versus nuts with guns. Make them illegal...ALL OF THEM. OK, maybe just those with more than single shot capacity. Then, require re-registering of those appropriate to SELF-DEFENSE for those who feel it necessary, and nationalize ammunition sales/production. The rest, confiscate them and turn them over to the military to at least reduce the Pentagon War Budget.

Oh, and make the NRA a rogue, private, KKK-type institution. Gone.

Make an entire new federal agency...plenty of qualified and capable war veterans looking for meaningful jobs...and regulate the hell out of the whole damn mess.

RIP...the little ones and their educators of Newtown, CT.


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Response to libdem4life (Reply #60)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 06:32 PM

62. Absolutely

 

My OP was (hopefully) obviously sarcastic. As you say, the mental health "solution to gun violence" is just another empty NRA Talking Point. First, it would cost billions. Since I'm a Liberal and want America to take care of its people, that isn't a stopper for me, but it would be for a lot of others, including (obviously) the repigs and gun-nuts who are the very ones causing the problems.

But secondly, as you said, it would be unworkable. How could you make a gun-nut continue to take his pills to prevent his murderous impulses? How could you be sure a "talking cure" is taking? How could you be sure when some gun-nut assures a shrink that "no, I don't want to murder a buncha kids anymore!" he isn't just lying?

The whole "lets make the focus mental health" is just another diversion from the scum at the NRA, and anybody who posts it is an NRA parrot.

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Response to bongbong (Reply #62)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 06:56 PM

63. Amazing how it's the only other option to confiscating/re-registering WMD..

How is it possible that rational folks can "logically" state that mass murder does not, by its very nature, refer to insanity, and the propensity to own and commandeer WMD-multi-shot killing devices also refer, to a paranoid parallel of similar mental state. NRA be damned.

Hell, I'd go for compensating them for their "costs" since they could be re-purposed into real military service. And as one other poster mentioned, putting a bar code or something on each bullet/ammo clip...the easier regulation and perhaps lesser of the two evils, IMHO.

Yet, since it is impossible to predict, project or therapeutacally alter the demons required to murder innocents, we can remain a civilized society by rationally controlling and monitoring them. Let's just pretend they are marijuana or cocaine...and fire up the locals with some federal assistance.

Disclosure: I was a public school first-grade teacher in LA County and am a liberal. I'm admittedly biased.

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