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Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:08 PM

Why do people think the whole school shooting problem would be solved if guns were taken away?

Don't get me wrong. I've been saddened reading the news reports. I choke up and nearly cry at work, and then I have to pull myself together.

That said, I don't think removing all guns from civilians having only cops and other authority have the guns(who we often are skeptical to trust).

I think there's a problem with mental illness. We need to do more public funding to assist those with mental problems. I'm not excusing murderers, but mental illness is obviously a problem.

I hate to say it, but we're going to have to have even more security in the schools. Lots of schools have a cop. They probably need a cop to guard the front door or any other unlocked door and asking for ID.

We also need to pray. Sorry to offend those who don't believe.

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Reply Why do people think the whole school shooting problem would be solved if guns were taken away? (Original post)
musical_soul Dec 2012 OP
hrmjustin Dec 2012 #1
atreides1 Dec 2012 #8
DainBramaged Dec 2012 #17
dionysus Dec 2012 #28
bettyellen Dec 2012 #40
Loudly Dec 2012 #2
ProgressiveProfessor Dec 2012 #15
Zax2me Dec 2012 #3
Nay Dec 2012 #4
baldguy Dec 2012 #41
HooptieWagon Dec 2012 #5
Deep13 Dec 2012 #6
pnwmom Dec 2012 #12
RetroLounge Dec 2012 #29
quaker bill Dec 2012 #38
eppur_se_muova Dec 2012 #7
randome Dec 2012 #9
Jonny Dec 2012 #10
Politicalboi Dec 2012 #11
Squinch Dec 2012 #13
riderinthestorm Dec 2012 #19
AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #14
CTyankee Dec 2012 #18
AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #21
CTyankee Dec 2012 #22
AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #37
CTyankee Dec 2012 #45
downandoutnow Dec 2012 #34
CTyankee Dec 2012 #35
randome Dec 2012 #24
AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #39
DainBramaged Dec 2012 #16
rainlillie Dec 2012 #20
DevonRex Dec 2012 #23
lanlady Dec 2012 #25
jillan Dec 2012 #26
HockeyMom Dec 2012 #27
Skidmore Dec 2012 #30
RetroLounge Dec 2012 #31
cynatnite Dec 2012 #32
bhikkhu Dec 2012 #33
riverwalker Dec 2012 #36
live love laugh Dec 2012 #42
cthulu2016 Dec 2012 #43
Floyd_Gondolli Dec 2012 #44

Response to musical_soul (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:11 PM

1. I don't think we are saying it would be solved but improved if we had good gun control laws.

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #1)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:18 PM

8. Good gun control laws are one thing.

But many here on DU, especially those that have a long history of being anti-gun are calling for the repeal of a Constitutional Amendment...they keep insisting that no guns at all, except for military and law enforcement, would solve the problem.

Some have even hinted that killing fellow Americans who don't feel the same is completely acceptable to them...one thread I just looked at a DUer was saying that a few Waco like incidents would be a good thing!

Those calling for repeal and insisting that the only way to go is no guns, are in the same category as the Tea Party, and the religious fanatics...thinking that their way is the right way!!!!

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Response to atreides1 (Reply #8)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:35 PM

17. Proof and links you make strong accuastions

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Response to DainBramaged (Reply #17)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:15 PM

28. i can't find the post but i saw them

a poster did advocate using drones to take out the homes of people who refused to surrender their firearms.
another suggested that people should have a finger blown off in order to be able to buy them.

sadly, the poster isn't making anything up.

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Response to dionysus (Reply #28)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 07:14 PM

40. i saw those responses as tongue in cheek replies that the police would be attacked by citizens

if they tried to take their guns.
I'm surprised anyone took it literally.

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Response to musical_soul (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:13 PM

2. The only Constitutional argument for RKBA is armed resistance against the government.

 

And that argument doesn't hold water anymore in our postbellum society.

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Response to Loudly (Reply #2)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:30 PM

15. Yet another Zombie contribution from Shares United

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Response to musical_soul (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:16 PM

3. Maybe lower body counts, but you are right.

 

You are not going to erase evil in the world. You can manage around/protect against it - even ban firearms but evil will remain.

And lower body counts aren't for certain. If someone wanted to find a way to mass kill without them, they could.
Explosives. Group attacks. Black market grenades or guns/rob a legal collector.

Most here would flip out if the police state they wish for without private ownership of weapons was introduced in full.
Just imagine such a state with a Repub Presidency, Congress and Senate all at the same time - which is going to happen sooner or later in our cyclical system.

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Response to musical_soul (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:16 PM

4. They think that way because Australia solved their school shooting problem in just that manner.

Now, here, it'll be more difficult because of the Constitution, not because the solution wouldn't work.

I do agree that we ought to have a rigorous mental health system in place AND a restructuring of society so it's a lot less "I've got mine and FUCK YOU", but that's a multi-decade project and, frankly, there are too many people who still think others should just fuck off and die if they can't 'compete.'

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Response to Nay (Reply #4)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 07:14 PM

41. Old saying: "The Constitution is not a suicide pact".

Even though gun worshipers think it is - and desperately want it to be.

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Response to musical_soul (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:17 PM

5. Maybe because prohibition and cannibus illegalization worked so well?

Oh wait...

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Response to musical_soul (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:17 PM

6. there would be nothing to shoot with. nt

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Response to Deep13 (Reply #6)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:23 PM

12. +1000. n/t

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Response to Deep13 (Reply #6)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:16 PM

29. +1000

RL

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Response to Deep13 (Reply #6)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 07:09 PM

38. +1000

Beat me to it.

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Response to musical_soul (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:17 PM

7. Most people aren't saying that. Not even gun control advocates.

They're just saying we are presently too far to the opposite extreme. There need to be some kind of reasonable limits on firearms, particularly handguns, and the few controls we have are full of such big loopholes as to be nearly ineffective.

The "taking away all guns" meme is likely to get you accused of putting up a straw man on behalf of the NRA and the gun lobby. I'd advise not using that in any discussion with reasonably informed people.

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Response to musical_soul (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:18 PM

9. Sorry but this still sounds like climate change denial.

We can't PROVE that anything we do will have an effect so don't bother.

If greater gun control prevents the frequency of mass killings, I'm all for that. It's a straw man argument to say we're looking for something that is foolproof.

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Response to musical_soul (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:21 PM

10. Couldn't disagree with you more

 



Why will taking away GUNS stop SHOOTINGS?

No guns = nothing to shoot with. Get it?

This would not stop bad people from doing bad things, no.

It would lessen the availability of guns, and thus reduce the damage done by the nuts.

The more we can reduce the availability of guns, the better the situation gets.

Look at other countries.

The USA is unique in its gun freedom... pretty much total freedom to get any kind of gun and do anything with it.

The USA also has more gun violence by far than any other country.

Yes other countries have violence and some gun violence. You can go cite your examples.

The carnage in the USA, especially in this last year, outpaces all other countries by far ( not including where war or civil war is happening).

Does that add up for you now?

Or would you rather ask kindergarten kids everywhere to be brave in the face of gunman and make a sacrifice so that we can keep our gun freedoms. 'cause it sounds like thats what you are asking them to do.





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Response to musical_soul (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:22 PM

11. It would help

And new guns need to have chips that can locate the gun at anytime. Make the chips mandatory for ALL guns new and old. And those that refuse to comply, lose their paranoia, I mean lose their guns. You MUST register your gun EVERY year, and the chip gets a reading to tell if you shot your gun, and what the reason was for it. Make schools have laser systems that can tell if a gun is within 50 to 100 yards of the school. Cops aren't so reliable, and they don't belong guarding schools.

And make gun owners buy annual insurance for their killing machines. Just like cars. Make the rates according to population. But the lowest premium should be $200.00 a year. If you think it's worth all the time and money, then you can have you precious guns.

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Response to musical_soul (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:26 PM

13. This family could well afford any mental health treatment they wanted. It didn't stop the slaughter

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Response to Squinch (Reply #13)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:39 PM

19. +1. If the family didn't have guns, it wouldn't have been this kind of execution style slaughter nt

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Response to musical_soul (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:32 PM

14. Good question.

 

But when you ask it, I suspect that some are going to falsely accuse you of being heartless, falsely accuse you of being a right-winger or spreading right-wing and/or NRA talking points, and even engage in name calling. Some may even misrepresent what you've said to satisfy their own agendas.

Why can't such people engage in respectful discussions as a way to work together to solve problems?

I agree with you that this country has a problem with mental illness.

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Response to AnotherMcIntosh (Reply #14)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:36 PM

18. Every country in the world has a problem with mental illness. But when those countries

limit the availability of guns, they have fewer people with mental illness shooting others. That's how that works, see?

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Response to CTyankee (Reply #18)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:55 PM

21. We should look for rationally-related solutions. If you are one of those who doesn't agree,

 

and otherwise prefers name-calling and falsely misstating what others have said, that's up to you.

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Response to AnotherMcIntosh (Reply #21)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:02 PM

22. Gee, I didn't call names or falsely misstate anything!

And to me a rationally related solution is more, tighter gun control laws and repeal of the 2nd amendment, along with public health programs that promote mental wellness and recovery from illness.

Now, there. I didn't call any names and I didn't falsely misstate anything.

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Response to CTyankee (Reply #22)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 07:07 PM

37. Really? What would happen if you checked some of your earlier posts.

 

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Response to AnotherMcIntosh (Reply #37)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:21 PM

45. I don't think so.

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Response to CTyankee (Reply #18)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:21 PM

34. But what about Anders Brevik in Norway?

 

Norway has much stricter gun regulations than we do here, and it seems that Brevik first took a trip to Prague specifically to try to buy guns illegally there - he was unable to acquire any that way, so he then decided to jump through all the hoops that Norway requires to acquire firearms instead. Semiautomatics appear to be illegal there, by the way.

And do we really know they have "fewer people" doing these kinds of things? Norway has a population of 5 million - we have one of over 300 million. One Anders Brevik would be the equivalent of 60 such incidents here.

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Response to downandoutnow (Reply #34)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:32 PM

35. He is the outstanding outlier here and obviously devoted a huge amount of time to his

project. We have lots of such projects going on here, don't we? All the time, too...

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Response to AnotherMcIntosh (Reply #14)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:09 PM

24. It's a strawman argument. No one is saying that all gun problems would be solved.

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Response to randome (Reply #24)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 07:10 PM

39. Anyone who says that "all gun problems would be solved" when others haven't, is raising a

 

straw-man argument.

Likewise, anyone who falsely claims or implies that someone else said that "all gun problems would be solved" when they haven't is also raising a straw-man argument.

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Response to musical_soul (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:34 PM

16. If your God was listening, he'd gave stopped the massacre. sorry.

And guns will never be the solution. All we ask is for sane controls, no one wants to grab you guns, just stop you from having massacre magazines and assault rifles.

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Response to musical_soul (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:47 PM

20. Well said, and I agree.

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Response to musical_soul (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:06 PM

23. Keyword shooting.

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Response to musical_soul (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:11 PM

25. No one is saying that the problem would be solved

and no one is saying that all guns should be taken away from civilians. Why are you constructing these strawman arguments? There's plenty that can be done that both respects the rights of responsible gun owners AND make these tragedies less commonplace.

And by the way, who's going to pay for all this beefed up security at schools? You? Teachers are being laid off, but you want to post security guards at schools so that the gun crowd is not inconvenienced?

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Response to musical_soul (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:15 PM

26. You cannot shoot someone with a gun if you don't have one.

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Response to musical_soul (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:15 PM

27. The solution is EVERYONE needs to be ARMED?

mandate EVERYONE in the US must own a gun? No, No, No. Yet, these stupid gun owners think THAT is the solution. MORE GUNS and MORE GUN OWNERS.

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Response to musical_soul (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:17 PM

30. No one is saying that all guns should be removed from civilians.

There needs to be some common sense about who carries a gun though. We have seen way too many of these massacres to justify gunslinger mentality. Guns do kill people...people with guns kill people. Arming everyone is not the answer. There are other nations which manage to live peacefully without guns. Why not learn to see other people as your fellows rather than potential enemies. This streak of paranoia is a national sickness which has been hyped and perpetuated by the gun manufacturers and the war mongers among us. Why can't we just be neighbors or fellow citizens? Why can't we find a way to work together? Is that such a terrible expectation to have of one another?

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Response to musical_soul (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:18 PM

31. Because there's be no guns

Wow, wasn't that easy?



RL

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Response to musical_soul (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:20 PM

32. Fuck praying...it's time for real gun control...

We have had 61 massacres since 1982.

We have a sick culture that glorifies gun ownership, does a piss poor job in cariing for the mentally ill and has a pathetic record in protecting the most vulnerable among us.

The time to do something was before Columbine. The time do something was at the first sign of gun violence reaching epidemic proportions.

I'll say it again. Fuck praying. That's all I've heard since this happened and it's time to stop it.

It's time to stand up against gun violence and do something about it.

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Response to musical_soul (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:20 PM

33. Nobody said the "whole problem" would be solved

but if we can make it harder for nutjobs to get guns, then some of the problem would be solved.

At least it would be looking at the problem realistically, and trying to take it seriously, and doing something. The whole NRA line about "nothing to see here, move on" is certainly not working.

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Response to musical_soul (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:35 PM

36. maybe guns as idols

is a form of mental illness.

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Response to musical_soul (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 07:14 PM

42. Restraint is really working for me right now

Because I am seriously battling the urge to say something else...

Without guns you can't shoot people--or can you?

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Response to musical_soul (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 07:17 PM

43. The OP headline question answers itself, doesn't it?

"Why do people think the whole school shooting problem would be solved if guns were taken away?"

QED

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Response to musical_soul (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 07:20 PM

44. It's a component to a solution

 

Not a complete solution. It would be a complete solution if there weren't 400 million guns in this country, many of them off the books and owned, in some cases, by people who would kill for the right to keep them.

We are past the point of no return with the 2nd amendment. The way to get at this problem now is tighter controls on sales in the future and a serious conversation about mental health in this country followed by ACTION.

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