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Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:50 PM

What is it in the psychological make up of honor students that causes a small percentage

Last edited Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:53 PM - Edit history (3)

of them to react in such a violent, cold blooded manor in so many of these instances?


Almost every time one of these school shootings occur it's been someone highly intelligent who was an outcast and seemed to be unbalanced. In most cases it sounds like they came from good families too.

It seems like abused kids may tend to lash out at their own families or own children once they get older but kids who are outcasts at school perhaps feel a need to lash out at "schools" because that is the source of their pain?

Since honor students do get bullied a lot perhaps there should be more emphasis on group counseling in gifted classes as well as classes for kids who struggle with their grades? Allow the kids to talk about what they are going through more? Verbalizing their feelings and getting them out in the open and guided by a professional before all the hurt manifests into rage.

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Reply What is it in the psychological make up of honor students that causes a small percentage (Original post)
Quixote1818 Dec 2012 OP
Harmony Blue Dec 2012 #1
SharonAnn Dec 2012 #16
RobinA Dec 2012 #55
dkf Dec 2012 #2
Democracyinkind Dec 2012 #8
alcibiades_mystery Dec 2012 #35
leftstreet Dec 2012 #38
Arugula Latte Dec 2012 #50
dawg Dec 2012 #3
Quixote1818 Dec 2012 #4
Speck Tater Dec 2012 #5
magical thyme Dec 2012 #22
Azathoth Dec 2012 #6
DBoon Dec 2012 #32
jody Dec 2012 #7
white_wolf Dec 2012 #10
jody Dec 2012 #11
OhioChick Dec 2012 #21
liberal_at_heart Dec 2012 #46
FarCenter Dec 2012 #9
jody Dec 2012 #13
white_wolf Dec 2012 #29
liberal_at_heart Dec 2012 #47
alcibiades_mystery Dec 2012 #36
Quixote1818 Dec 2012 #40
mcar Dec 2012 #49
FSogol Dec 2012 #54
FSogol Dec 2012 #12
Quixote1818 Dec 2012 #15
FSogol Dec 2012 #42
Quixote1818 Dec 2012 #45
FSogol Dec 2012 #53
Quixote1818 Dec 2012 #14
rrneck Dec 2012 #17
backscatter712 Dec 2012 #18
Quixote1818 Dec 2012 #19
white_wolf Dec 2012 #30
undeterred Dec 2012 #20
JVS Dec 2012 #31
leftstreet Dec 2012 #39
kestrel91316 Dec 2012 #23
intaglio Dec 2012 #24
Quixote1818 Dec 2012 #44
intaglio Dec 2012 #48
green for victory Dec 2012 #25
patrice Dec 2012 #27
pnwmom Dec 2012 #43
liberalhistorian Dec 2012 #26
Dawson Leery Dec 2012 #51
bettyellen Dec 2012 #28
patrice Dec 2012 #33
LiberalEsto Dec 2012 #34
fizzgig Dec 2012 #37
jody Dec 2012 #41
Peacetrain Dec 2012 #52

Response to Quixote1818 (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:53 PM

1. Young men are often bullied

if they are compassionate, or show empathy. They are bullied for not conforming to what a "man" is supposed to be. Ironically what makes a boy into a man is being a responsible adult (not different than what makes a girl into a woman). They don't learn this, and learn all the wrong lessons of what it is to being a man by bullies.

Our culture of violence is very much to blame. I have been an avid gamer since '88, but when I see CoD and how engaged kids are with that game I am stick in my stomach.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Reply #1)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:35 PM

16. And it is nearly always young men. Occasionally it's younger teenage boys, but it's nearly always

young men. What does that say to us? Think about it.

And several of them began their violent attack after having some kind of argument with a woman (mother, girl friend, co-worker or co-student). Think about it.

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Response to SharonAnn (Reply #16)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:08 PM

55. The Age & Gender Issue

One reason for the incredible similarities in these shooters is that this is the age that major mental illness tends to overwhelm the defenses. Males tend to act out more than women, hence to killing.

The thing I find interesting is the racial similarity. Not an African-American thing, these rampages, despite the same gun culture, video game culture, media exposure, and mental illness profile. Curious.

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Response to Quixote1818 (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:53 PM

2. I'd guess they had a healthy regard for their own intelligence and felt under appreciated.

 

Thus the need for a grand murder-suicide.

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Response to dkf (Reply #2)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:20 PM

8. The day that the two of us agree on something has finally arrived.

That's why the people that do this kind of shit should not get ANY attention at all. The media should just refer to "the shooter" or "the maniac" and not delve into any simplistic accounts of their biographies in order to come up with some half-assed answer to the "why him" question. Let the authorities sort that out - if the shooter lives that is. If not, forget him and thereby give him the opposite of what he wants.

Kinda stupid that it takes a tragedy to realize that there is common ground even among opposites on the liberal spectrum.

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Response to dkf (Reply #2)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:59 PM

35. I'd call that an unhealthy regard

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Response to alcibiades_mystery (Reply #35)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:05 PM

38. +1

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Response to dkf (Reply #2)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:38 PM

50. I think so. My guess is it's likely a toxic mix of

mental illness, intelligence, ego, testosterone and feeling the need to control and punish other people (after feeling powerless) for their own unhappiness.

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Response to Quixote1818 (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:54 PM

3. Maybe we should try to have fewer outcasts.

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Response to dawg (Reply #3)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:55 PM

4. Agree! nt

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Response to Quixote1818 (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:00 PM

5. They are bullied and excluded from the social network

 

Hence they develop no social ties and no empathy for others, since the "others" in their lives are nothing more than the source of pain and humiliation.

When people won't allow them to get close they begin to see people as things not worthy of their respect.

Some of us get lucky and find enough fellow nerds to bond with and form normal human connections. Those who aren't so lucky end up filled with nothing but hatred and contempt for those who deride and humiliate them.

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Response to Speck Tater (Reply #5)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:10 PM

22. ^^^^ this. nt

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Response to Quixote1818 (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:01 PM

6. Intelligent people are better able to function with and conceal potentially-violent mental illness

It's not that they are innately more prone to this kind of behavior, it's that they are able to go much longer before being identified and treated.

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Response to Azathoth (Reply #6)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:51 PM

32. and they are more capable of the planning required for truly horrific massacres

a less intelligent killer would snap and maybe take down one or two people who happen to be nearby

An intelligent killer can plan to amass weapons and strike where they do most harm

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Response to Quixote1818 (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:10 PM

7. Students with high IQ are often bullied while a lower IQ athlete is placed on a pedestal. That

 

speaks volumes for society, none of it good.

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Response to jody (Reply #7)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:23 PM

10. We actually agree on something.

I'm in shock.

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Response to white_wolf (Reply #10)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:26 PM

11. When you are right, we will always agree.

 

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Response to jody (Reply #7)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:49 PM

21. This n/t

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Response to jody (Reply #7)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:23 PM

46. bullying kids with high IQs needs to be stopped but sometimes sports are all kids with low IQ have

so I wouldn't say that we need to treat students with low IQs who find a place they belong in sports differently. We just need to treat the high IQ students better. My own son is autistic and has a boderline low IQ. He often feels stupid in his general education classes and feels like he doesn't fit in. He just started wrestling and really, really loves it. In fact, while the other wrestlers have a very serious competitive look on their face, my son is all smiles and laughs because he is just having so much fun he can't help but smile.

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Response to Quixote1818 (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:23 PM

9. Maybe we should have programs for gifted and talented kids that value them.

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Response to FarCenter (Reply #9)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:29 PM

13. For every $11 we spend on children with learning needs, we spend 2 cents on gifted students. I don't

 

want to take away funding for special needs students but I do demand equal funds for the gifted.

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Response to jody (Reply #13)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:50 PM

29. +100.

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Response to jody (Reply #13)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:25 PM

47. I agree with you

I have a son in special education. They don't spend enough money on special education, but they spend even less on gifted programs. That is not right. Our entire educational system needs more funding.

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Response to FarCenter (Reply #9)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:03 PM

36. ROFL

I'm guessing you're not being sarcastic, but the statement itself is deeply funny:

Maybe we should have programs for gifted and talented kids that value them.

Like, for example, separate classes beginning as young as age five that tell them that they're better than all the other kids! Maybe we could call it a "Gifted and Talented Class."

Hell, why not a whole school, just for them?

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Response to alcibiades_mystery (Reply #36)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:08 PM

40. I had the same reaction as you did. nt

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Response to alcibiades_mystery (Reply #36)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:35 PM

49. Yeah, educating kids to the best of their ability

What a concept. I have two gifted kids and I am here to tell you that gifted programs do not tell them they are better than other kids. They simply give these kids a chance to spend some very limited time learning at their ability level, which is frequently not their grade level.

I've been fighting for my kids educations for decades, and have watched in despair as funding for gifted and talented programs get cut and cut and cut.

I define education as learning something one doesn't already know. GT kids often languish in regular classrooms being "taught" material they've known for a long time, but there often is little to nothing in place for them because the schedule and test prep are more important than the kids.

That's not being taught that you are better or special. It's being taught you are not important. That's been our experience.

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Response to alcibiades_mystery (Reply #36)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:57 PM

54. You just gotta shake your head sometimes here.

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Response to Quixote1818 (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:28 PM

12. Holy Oversimplification Batman!

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Response to FSogol (Reply #12)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:32 PM

15. Care to enlighten us? nt

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Response to Quixote1818 (Reply #15)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:27 PM

42. Where to start?

You entire "premise" is laughably flawed.

First you seem to think Honor Students are nerds. While some might be, have you ever noticed how many athletes and other students are in IB, AP, or Honors courses?

BTW, The dictionary lists a nerd as:

1. a stupid, irritating, ineffectual, or unattractive person.
2. an intelligent but single-minded person obsessed with a nonsocial hobby or pursuit: a computer nerd.

Nowhere does the word gifted or highly intelligent appear.

Secondly, you seem to take the praise adults give children as fact. A statement like, "He was bright" becomes a "Honor Student Nerd" in your mind. Adults, especially teacher tend to not criticize kids. No one will say, he was a scary awkward kid. They'll say he was smart and quiet.

Third, how many shootings are done by nerds? Most of these shootings appear to be the work of social misfits with undiagnosed or borderline mental issues, not nerds.

Fourth, your statement of "Since gifted kids do get bullied a lot ..." is hilarious. Gifted kids don't get bullied, they are quite often the most popular kids in a school. The kids that get bullied are the socially inept, the immature, and anyone who is different.

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Response to FSogol (Reply #42)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:15 PM

45. I used the term "nerd" in quotes because I had just read a Huffington post article that did so

Last edited Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:47 PM - Edit history (1)

Here is the article: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/15/adam-lanza-newtown-school-shooter-honors-student_n_2306736.html

I was making my point the same way as Huffington Post did. Are they wrong too?

And where did you get that definition for nerd? Here is one more in line with what 99% of the population thinks nerd means:

A nerd (adjective: nerdy) is a person, typically described as being overly intellectual, obsessive, or socially impaired. They may spend inordinate amounts of time on unpopular, obscure, or non-mainstream activities, which are generally either highly technical or relating to topics of fiction or fantasy, to the exclusion of more mainstream activities. Additionally, many nerds are described as being shy, quirky, and unattractive, and may have difficulty participating in, or even following, sports. "Nerd" is a derogatory, stereotypical term, but as with other pejoratives, it has been reclaimed and redefined by some as a term of pride and group identity.



The fact is the bulk of recent shootings were done by gifted, honor students:

Newtown - Honors student who was outcast

Columbine - Honors students who were outcast

Virgina Tec - Honors student who was outcast


Other very recent shootings that were not at schools but were done by honor students who were outcast

Gabriella Gifford's - Honors student

Aurora theater shooting - Honors student


Yes, some gifted kids do get bullied and many don't but it's a higher percentage on average than say "jocks". Thats just a fact.

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Response to Quixote1818 (Reply #45)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:56 PM

53. Not true: "Columbine - Honors students" and "Virgina Tec - Honors student"

Last edited Sun Dec 16, 2012, 09:28 AM - Edit history (1)

Seung-Hui Cho (the VA Tech shooter) was in the special education program in Fairfax County. He was not an honors student.

Likewise, Jared Lee Loughner was on academic probation. Not a honor student.

I'm sure the rest of the "facts" you made up are equally truth-deficient.

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Response to Quixote1818 (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:31 PM

14. moved to op


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Response to Quixote1818 (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:41 PM

17. Their parents treat them like furniture. nt

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Response to Quixote1818 (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:42 PM

18. A lot of it is chronic stressors.

People don't "just snap". These things build for a long time.

One article I dug up suggested that it can be any combination of stressors. Bad home, bad parenting, disabilities, bullying, bad boss at work, fights with the spouse or significant other. These things build up for years, and then something happens - a bad bullying incident, or a firing from a job, or a divorce, or some humiliation, that turns the chronic strain into an acute situation that causes this person to crack. In these cases, there's almost always a planning stage, where the killer acquires weapons, plans his assault, and usually leaks out hints that he's about to go postal. Finally, there's the attack...

http://jacklevinonviolence.com/articles/abslevin.pdf

Amazing what you can dig up by searching in scholar.google.com. Especially if you're a college student with access to most of the paywalled articles through your university library.

Thom Hartmann was talking about this kind of thing yesterday. Not directly referencing this article, but mentioning that with our country having a record level of inequality, a culture where "kicking people while they're down" is tolerated and encouraged, and people are struggling to eat and pay bills, well, that turns the stress level up, and some people are likely to crack.

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #18)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:44 PM

19. I heard Thom Hartmann talking about this too.


He was making one great point after another.

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Response to Quixote1818 (Reply #19)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:50 PM

30. Thom is great.

I wish he was on the air around here instead of fucking Rush Limbaugh. God, I hate that blowhard.

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Response to Quixote1818 (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:45 PM

20. Now I'm worried that Bill Gates is going to lash out at all of us.

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Response to undeterred (Reply #20)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:50 PM

31. You don't think that's exactly what his promotion of school "reforms" are?

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Response to JVS (Reply #31)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:07 PM

39. He can harm millions of kids and never go to jail

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Response to Quixote1818 (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:17 PM

23. I was gifted but spared that label (they didn't label us back in the day).

I had to put up with teasing/minor bullying. I shed a few tears and wanted to punch a couple kids in the nose or kick them in the shin, but I never did. My parents taught me from an early age that hitting first was NEVER acceptable and they also taught me:

"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can never hurt me."

I guess I actually paid attention.

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Response to Quixote1818 (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:29 PM

24. FFS! use some critical thinking

substitute other descriptives for "honor student nerds" and you will see that your OP is seriously flawed.

Examples (not to be taken seriously)
What is it in the psychological make up of gun owners that causes a small percentage of them to react in such a violent, cold blooded manor in so many of these instances?

What is it in the psychological make up of American men that causes a small percentage of them to react in such a violent, cold blooded manor in so many of these instances?

What is it in the psychological make up of Fundamentalist Christians that causes a small percentage of them to react in such a violent, cold blooded manor in so many of these instances?

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Response to intaglio (Reply #24)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:32 PM

44. Name one recent school shooting that was not by an gifted child

Last edited Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:18 PM - Edit history (1)


Newtown - Honors student who was outcast

Columbine - Honors students who were outcast

Virgina Tec - Honors student who was outcast


Other very recent shootings that were not at schools but were done by honor students who were outcast

Gabriella Gifford's - Honors student

Aurora theater shooting - Honors student

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Response to Quixote1818 (Reply #44)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:32 PM

48. And all but one was white, so what?

All but one was an American male

I am unaware of the religion of the perpetrators of this crimes.

The point is not the intelligence or educational achievements of the criminal but their mental state and their access to some of the deadliest weapons on the planet

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Response to Quixote1818 (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:34 PM

25. the common link without a single doubt

 

http://ssristories.com/index.php

a collection of 4,800+ news stories with the full media article available, mainly criminal in nature, that have appeared in the media (newspapers, TV, scientific journals) or that were part of FDA testimony in either 1991, 2004 or 2006, in which antidepressants are mentioned



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Response to green for victory (Reply #25)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:47 PM

27. +1 for meds & drugs/alcohol used in general INSTEAD OF SOLUTIONS or solution oriented

processes.

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Response to green for victory (Reply #25)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:27 PM

43. Good point. And if he was bi-polar, for example, taking an SSRI instead of

a mood stabilizer could have tipped him into a manic and psychotic state.

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Response to Quixote1818 (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:45 PM

26. Part of it is the dirty little secret

that, in this contemporary society, there is, unfortunately, little place for them other than in a rareified academic world that most people often just don't understand. It's a very real human need to feel connected to and a part of others and a group, whether you recognize it or not, and, for all of our hypocritical lauding of the "innovative" and the "creative" and those who move us forward by using the "American spirit of originality and invention", we don't really practice it in the real world. We want and expect conformity and are suspicious of those who do not fit what we believe to be "normal", and they know that.

People who are different are often made to FEEL that difference constantly, daily, almost everywhere they go. Some, like Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, (and, in earlier times, those like Thomas Edison) embrace it and use it to move forward and make the inventions and changes they envision. Too many others, though, either don't or don't know how, or are constantly being pressured to be "normal" by those around them, including family (as I believe was the case with this shooter), who don't want to deal with such difference.

My young adult son has Asperger's Syndrome and I've watched him grow up having to deal with it, as he's dealing with it now. He still has yet to find his "groove" and his social impairments make it that much more difficult for him to do so, despite his genius-level intelligence and original way of thinking. Actually, that may very well be WHY, as it intimidated even his own teachers often. If he didn't have a strong foundation of continuing family love, support and acceptance, things might very well be different with him emotionally.

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Response to liberalhistorian (Reply #26)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:43 PM

51. Sports stars are glorified, morons such as the shrub are glorifed,

intellectuals or those who question what is are outcast.

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Response to Quixote1818 (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:48 PM

28. Have had three relatives have psychotic breaks- the smartest and most sensitive people in my family

all fell to schizophrenia, accompanied with depression causing outbursts of antisocial behavior.

All super creative thinkers, A students and very empathetic. During puberty something happens, the not fitting in, and emotional outbursts, and somewhere around 17-19 the horrible voices start in their heads.

They are tortured, and it's undeniably biological.

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Response to Quixote1818 (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:55 PM

33. Group therapy can be a crutch too. & The last time I looked at the research, there's a position

out that says, TTE, "Therapy doesn't work."

Maybe that's a problem with whatever "therapy" is, maybe it's a problem that R.D. Laing would agree with, a problem with whatever "work"/therapeutic success is.

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Response to Quixote1818 (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:58 PM

34. Young women are also bullied, for pity's sake!

I was. Let me tell you what it feels like to be a female bullying victim.

I was considered extremely bright and socially awkward in school.

Part of this was because my parents were immigrants who taught me to speak only in Estonian until I started kindergarten.

My parents were not ignorant; they made a choice to immerse me in their native language. Each spoke at least 4 languages fluently including English, and both had to leave law school because of WW2. They were intelligent, educated people.

I picked up English quickly in school and was skipped a grade; a year later the school wanted me to skip another grade, but my parents had the sense to prevent that.

This left me a year younger and smaller than my classmates, and socially clueless because my parents didn't want me mixing much with American kids. They kept hoping Estonia would be freed from the USSR so they could go back there with me and my younger brother. They thought American ways were horrible.

It was a dysfunctional and abusive home. I think my parents were suffering depression and anger from leaving their homeland, their families, their educations and everything else. They came to the US penniless.

My brother and I were beaten with leather belts any time we stepped out of line.

My parents did not encourage sports activities, so I was also physically awkward and the worst in my class at recess games, PE and so on. We were poor; I wore hideous, eight-years-out-of-style hand-me-downs from a distant cousin.

From the time I was in third grade until perhaps my senior year, I was bullied viciously in school. I wasn't invited to play dates or parties. I never had a date, I was never even asked to dance at our many (almost weekly) school dances.

The few kids I hung out with were also intelligent nerds. We didn't have goths or freaks or nerds per se in the 1960s. We had the chess club and the literary magazine.

All those school years I blamed myself for being such a loser. I was skinny, I wore cheap eyeglasses, I had mean parents, I had awful clothes, I was ugly. I was extremely shy. I was afraid of everyone. I was the last girl in my class to start wearing a bra, and I caught hell about that in PE class every day and I wanted to die. I thought I deserved almost everything I got. I deliberately "dumbed down" in my senior year because I thought if I didn't appear as smart in classes, some boy might ask me out. No such luck.

At some point in my mid-20s I became really angry about the way I'd been treated in school. I started fantasizing about going to a class reunion armed with a machine gun and mowing the bastards all down. However, I am a quiet, peaceful, cowardly person, and I would never act this out in reality. I went to two reunions, was mostly ignored, but two women apologized to me.

If I had been male, and had grown up surrounded by violent television and violent video games, and hung around in school with a group of bullied kids who were into violent fantasies, and perhaps had some experience with firearms and access to them, I might have turned out very differently.

The rage was certainly there inside me. It took many years of therapy to get where I am today.

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Response to Quixote1818 (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:04 PM

37. maybe there should be more emphasis on stopping the bullying

gods know my high school never did anything about it.

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Response to fizzgig (Reply #37)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:12 PM

41. I was bullied until my middle teens when a spurt of growth made it a bad choice for those who

 

previously bulled me.

I took that advantage and became the protector for others who were being bullied.

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Response to Quixote1818 (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:44 PM

52. Just because you are an honor student does not mean you are gifted..

And many gifted are not honor students.

just a simple truth

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