HomeLatest ThreadsGreatest ThreadsForums & GroupsMy SubscriptionsMy Posts
DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Main » General Discussion (Forum) » New gunpowder tax proposa...
Introducing Discussionist: A new forum by the creators of DU

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:33 PM

 

New gunpowder tax proposal, $10/pound

If we tax gunpowder ~$10/pound, that will increase the cost per bullet by under 50%.

Take every penny of revenue generated with this tax and put it towards mental health services.

Thoughts?

61 replies, 4318 views

Reply to this thread

Back to top Alert abuse

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 61 replies Author Time Post
Reply New gunpowder tax proposal, $10/pound (Original post)
RomneyLies Dec 2012 OP
slackmaster Dec 2012 #1
RomneyLies Dec 2012 #4
slackmaster Dec 2012 #7
RomneyLies Dec 2012 #10
Comrade_McKenzie Dec 2012 #41
tritsofme Dec 2012 #42
slackmaster Dec 2012 #59
NYC_SKP Dec 2012 #2
RomneyLies Dec 2012 #5
RomneyLies Dec 2012 #52
leftstreet Dec 2012 #3
RomneyLies Dec 2012 #6
leftstreet Dec 2012 #8
RomneyLies Dec 2012 #12
RevStPatrick Dec 2012 #9
RomneyLies Dec 2012 #11
ProgressiveProfessor Dec 2012 #16
Lone_Star_Dem Dec 2012 #45
RomneyLies Dec 2012 #46
Lone_Star_Dem Dec 2012 #49
ProgressiveProfessor Dec 2012 #15
RomneyLies Dec 2012 #57
Matariki Dec 2012 #17
former-republican Dec 2012 #13
Lone_Star_Dem Dec 2012 #14
Marinedem Dec 2012 #18
Lone_Star_Dem Dec 2012 #20
cherokeeprogressive Dec 2012 #19
RomneyLies Dec 2012 #21
Logical Dec 2012 #22
RomneyLies Dec 2012 #23
Logical Dec 2012 #24
hack89 Dec 2012 #25
RomneyLies Dec 2012 #26
hack89 Dec 2012 #28
RomneyLies Dec 2012 #30
hack89 Dec 2012 #31
RomneyLies Dec 2012 #33
2ndamendmentrules Dec 2012 #27
RomneyLies Dec 2012 #29
0rganism Dec 2012 #32
RomneyLies Dec 2012 #34
0rganism Dec 2012 #37
Barkoff Dec 2012 #35
RomneyLies Dec 2012 #36
Lone_Star_Dem Dec 2012 #44
LineLineLineLineReply .
RomneyLies Dec 2012 #48
Politicalboi Dec 2012 #38
DefenseLawyer Dec 2012 #39
RomneyLies Dec 2012 #40
DefenseLawyer Dec 2012 #43
RomneyLies Dec 2012 #47
DefenseLawyer Dec 2012 #53
RomneyLies Dec 2012 #54
RomneyLies Dec 2012 #50
xchrom Dec 2012 #51
Ghost in the Machine Dec 2012 #55
RomneyLies Dec 2012 #56
Kaleva Dec 2012 #58
AlexSatan Dec 2012 #60
RomneyLies Dec 2012 #61

Response to RomneyLies (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:34 PM

1. If a bill to do that was introduced in Congress, it would cause a huge spike in powder sales

 

And other reloading supplies.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to slackmaster (Reply #1)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:36 PM

4. There's a huge spike in gun, powder, ammunition, etc. sales right now any way.

 

It was sparked by the re-election of President Obama.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to RomneyLies (Reply #4)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:40 PM

7. Please don't use words like "sparked" so close to the word "powder"

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to slackmaster (Reply #7)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:41 PM

10. LOL

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to slackmaster (Reply #1)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:24 PM

41. That's why things like this should be passed and disclosed AFTER the fact. nt

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Comrade_McKenzie (Reply #41)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:25 PM

42. lol, now we want Congress to pass secret bills?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Comrade_McKenzie (Reply #41)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 10:44 AM

59. Sorry Comrade, transparency of the law-making process is a cornerstone of any real Democracy

 

Or of a representative republic based on Democratic principles.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to RomneyLies (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:35 PM

2. And the rich would then be better armed.

Nope. Don't like the idea.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #2)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:36 PM

5. So you object to an increase of less than 50% in the price per bullet?

 

That's pretty unreasonable, IMO.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #2)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 06:07 PM

52. Please, do the math.

 

$10/pound

7000 grains/pound

Maximum load on a .45 caliber pistol bullet is 7 grains.

1000 of those bullets per pound.

That's $0.01/.45 caliber pistol round.

Tell me again how the rich would be better armed. Yeah, I propose increasing the cost of gunpodwer by 50%. Gunpowder is one of the cheapest elements in a cartridge.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to RomneyLies (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:35 PM

3. Only rich people should have gunpowder!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to leftstreet (Reply #3)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:37 PM

6. Good god, you pay $10 for ammo today, you pay less than $15 for the same ammo after tax.

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to RomneyLies (Reply #6)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:40 PM

8. You want to fund healthcare from ammo sales

WAIT WAIT WAIT you might have an idea here.


If we took money from the military and put it....

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to leftstreet (Reply #8)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:43 PM

12. If only that could happen

 

Imagine how healthy we'd be if wo switched the health care budget dollars for the military budget dollars.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to RomneyLies (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:41 PM

9. I started a thread proposing a $100 per bullet tax...

 

And the same idiots came around with the same lame "only the rich will be armed" lines of bullshit. And I've seen the same "arguments" on numerous threads here in the past 24 hours.

RL - please bear in mind that these people DO NOT WANT TO SOLVE THESE PROBLEMS, and that is why they invade every single thread with the same lines of negativity as to why whatever proposal will not work. DO NOT ENGAGE THEM. They are not interested in solutions.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to RevStPatrick (Reply #9)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:43 PM

11. Yesterday I proposed a $10/grain tax on gunpowder.

 

That would make a .45 caliber bullet cost between $40 and $70. It would make an AR-15 round cost $230.

I was roundly condemned by the right to kill crowd.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to RomneyLies (Reply #11)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:52 PM

16. Racist and Classist solutions that do not fix the root causes tend to draw criticism

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to RomneyLies (Reply #11)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:39 PM

45. I hope you're not thinking that's what I meant.

I actually was impressed by your looking for a different type of solution to the problem.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Lone_Star_Dem (Reply #45)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:42 PM

46. You were about the only positive reaction in that thread

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to RomneyLies (Reply #46)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:52 PM

49. That's good to know.

Not that I was one of the few who got what you're trying to accomplish. Just that you understood my intentions.

I'm sometimes not the best at getting my intented meaning across. I just didn't want a misunderstanding between us!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to RevStPatrick (Reply #9)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:52 PM

15. Actually we are interested in solutions, just not Classist and Racist ones

While I do not criticize your motives, the impacts of what you propose are will clearly have such impacts.

We clearly have a violence problem in our society. The same kind of weapons people are enraged about today have been in the US populace since after WWI. We did not have our current level of violence then or for quite some time. What has changed?

I taught firearms mostly to GLBTs. As a group they face a much higher level of threat than most. They did it out of perceived need. They would also be the first ones to disarm when the need goes away. We need to deal with the causes of violence if we truly want to make substantive progress.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #15)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 07:18 PM

57. A 50% increase in the cost of gunpowder tranlsates to a penny increase per .45 caliber bullet.

 

And that's with a heavy load of powder.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to RevStPatrick (Reply #9)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:22 PM

17. Calling people idiots who don't agree with you doesn't further dialog.

The idea of making bullets expensive is a classist fix for the problem. It certainly won't prevent crazy people from going on rampages if they want to.

Restricting ownership of semi-automatic weapons would be more effective. Perhaps instead of banning them altogether, their use could be restricted to licensed gun clubs, where they are kept locked up and only used at a gun club's shooting range?

And certainly the restrictions on buying guns could be tightened up.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to RomneyLies (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:46 PM

13. Pittman–Robertson Federal Aid in Wildlife Restoration Act

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittman%E2%80%93Robertson_Federal_Aid_in_Wildlife_Restoration_Act




In the 1970s, amendments created a 10% tax on handguns and their ammunition and accessories as well as an 11% tax on archery equipment. It was also mandated that half of the money from each of those new taxes must be used to educate and train hunters through the creation and maintenance of hunter safety classes and shooting/target ranges




This piece of legislation has provided states with funding for research and projects that would have been unaffordable otherwise. According to a U.S. Fish and Wildlife Services webpage that was updated in January 2010, over two billion dollars of federal aid has been generated through this program, which in turn means that states have kept up their 25% contributions with over 500 million dollars. The habitat acquisition and improvement made possible by this money has allowed some species with large ranges such as American black bears, elk, cougars, and others, to expand those ranges beyond where they were found prior to the implementation of the act. Important game populations such as white-tailed deer and several Galliformes have also had a chance to recover and expand their populations

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to RomneyLies (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:48 PM

14. It could work.

Bullets aren't a necessity to live. They do cost our society a great deal of money in health care costs and victims services. What's so wrong with taxing the gunpowder like we do tobacco?

In the end the revenue generated may have to go toward victims services, but I don't really see that as a bad thing. There's the added benefit of the dialog it would bring to the floor over the violence associated with firearm related crimes.

I think you're getting warmer with this one.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Lone_Star_Dem (Reply #14)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:51 PM

18. Yeah, totaly.

 

I'm sure if somebody wants to shoot up the mall, a 50% increase in the cost of ammo will stop them.

Get real. A 50% rise in ammo costs wouldn't even dent my target shooting schedule.

By all means though, keep proposing silly ideas that are more punitive reactionary laws, rather than solutions to problems.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Marinedem (Reply #18)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:57 PM

20. I never said it would stop anyone or anything.

It could, however, produce much needed revenue for victims of violent gun crime. There's also the benefit of the dialog it would open up.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to RomneyLies (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:55 PM

19. What then? Tax the chemicals people will use to make it and sell it on the black market?

By the way, Google only returns 11,000,000 hits for "how to make gunpowder".

http://www.instructables.com/id/Gunpowder/

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to cherokeeprogressive (Reply #19)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:07 PM

21. Pretty much the same thing with corn and people making alcohol to sell it on the black market

 

By the way, Google only returns 20,100,000 hits for "moonshine".

http://www.ibiblio.org/moonshine/make/make.html

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to RomneyLies (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:14 PM

22. So you think the shooter would change his mind based on cost? Really?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Logical (Reply #22)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:15 PM

23. No, I think money going to mental health services from the Right to Kill Babies and Adults crowd

 

will help the overall situation, though.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to RomneyLies (Reply #23)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:19 PM

24. I can see that. I have no issue with a tax to pay for gun related issues. n-t

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to RomneyLies (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:34 PM

25. Lets increase the cost of alcohol 50% while we are at it

lets save even more lives.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to hack89 (Reply #25)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:35 PM

26. When was the last time some nut alcohol poisoned 20 babies?

 

Yeah, fuck that stupid assed analogy.

On edit: The Federal Excise Tax on spirits is currently $13.50/100 proof gallon. That's a higher percentage tax rate than I am proposing on fucking gunpowder.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to RomneyLies (Reply #26)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:41 PM

28. So 20 deaths spread out over time are ok?

the annual death toll is irreverent?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to hack89 (Reply #28)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:52 PM

30. Read my edit

 

We already tax alcohol at a higher rate than I propose for gunpowder.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to RomneyLies (Reply #30)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:55 PM

31. Yet alchohol is cheap and affordable

isn't the point of your tax to restrict access by making it too expensive?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to hack89 (Reply #31)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:56 PM

33. Nope, the point of a $10/pound tax on gun powder is to fund mental health services.

 

Gun powder would still be affordable. The Right to Kill Babies and Adults cultists would just have to pay for mental health services.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to RomneyLies (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:40 PM

27. You are wrong

 

The free market will determine the price of gunpowder. Mentally ill people use pills, drugs, blunt and sharp objects to kill. Do you want to tax those too?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to 2ndamendmentrules (Reply #27)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:52 PM

29. Buh Bye

 

One post wonder.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to RomneyLies (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:55 PM

32. much too low. Try $1000/pound

Bullets themselves should be subject to an additional $50/bullet tax.
These aren't toys we're talking about here. Gunpowder is an explosive. Bullets are tools of directed death. Let's put a price on them that shows some goddam respect for their power.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to 0rganism (Reply #32)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:00 PM

34. I proposed a $10/grain tax yesterday, that's $70,000/pound.

 

The Right to Kill Babies and Adults crowd resoundingly thrashed me while nobody defended the proposal.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to RomneyLies (Reply #34)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:06 PM

37. to be fair, i wouldn't want hunting to become completely unaffordable

There are a lot of folks who rely on supplemental venison and elk meat to make it through the year. If they're good shots, their annual costs won't go up more than a few hundred dollars.

But there's no reason in the world bullets should come cheap. They should be treated like cherished jewels and kept locked securely away until a time comes when they are desperately needed.

And fuck the Right to Kill crowd. Fuck 'em and forget 'em. They are useless and about to see their viewpoint become the legislative loser it always should have been.



Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to RomneyLies (Original post)


Response to Barkoff (Reply #35)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:03 PM

36. The BEST possible outcome would be for Republicans to propose said tax

 

We already tax alcohol at a higher rate.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to RomneyLies (Reply #36)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:36 PM

44. Member's gone. Read the obit left by Skinner.

You'll like it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Lone_Star_Dem (Reply #44)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:46 PM

48. .

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to RomneyLies (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:07 PM

38. Tax gun powder

And make gun owners have to jump through hoops to hold on to their guns. Yearly registration fees of $50.00, yearly mandatory safety classes $50.00. Proof of insurance, and a yearly mental heath check.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to RomneyLies (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:11 PM

39. That would definitely generate revenue... for organized crime

I doubt they would put much of it toward mental health services though.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DefenseLawyer (Reply #39)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:19 PM

40. IT's a lower rate than is currently put on alcohol

 

I don't think there'd be much of a black market for gun powder since you don't know what the fuck the black marketeers did to make the shit and you determine the grains in your load based upon the type of gunpowder, the cartridge size, and the weight of the projectile.

Using black market gun powder could cost you your life.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to RomneyLies (Reply #40)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:34 PM

43. There would be a huge black market for gunpowder

The reason there isn't much of a black market for legal alcohol, despite the tax is that alcohol is a consumer product, people are buying a brand or at the very least are buying something they plan to consume, thus most consumers aren't going to buy unmarked bottles out of the trunk of a car. Gunpowder is a commodity, and it's not going to be purchased much at all by the end user. It can't be readily identified as legal, taxed gunpowder just by looking at it and so it would be very easy to bring in black market gunpowder at a wholesale level. It's made even easier by the fact that the buyers are going to be small time ammo makers who hate the law to begin with. Black marketeers aren't going to make gunpowder, they'll import it, just like cocaine if the market is there. I actually like your the idea of a tax to raise funds, I just point out that those advocating some really high tax as if that would somehow make ammunition less available are underestimating the black market.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DefenseLawyer (Reply #43)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:45 PM

47. This isn't a high tax, though.

 

I admit $10/ grain is a fucking high tax.

$10/pound is very low and the a margins for a black market simply would not be there vs. the risk and penalties if caught.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to RomneyLies (Reply #47)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 06:08 PM

53. I do think your proposal has merit

As a way to raise funds for mental health, keeping in mind that we can't get carried away. Would you collect it at the wholesale or retail level?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DefenseLawyer (Reply #53)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 06:11 PM

54. Wholesale

 

By the time it reaches retail level it increases the average pistol bullet by about a penny, maybe two.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DefenseLawyer (Reply #43)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:53 PM

50. Here''s another way to look at this $10/pound tax on gun powder.

 

There are 7000 grains per pound.

About the biggest load for a .45 caliber pistol bullet would be 7 grains of gunpowder, so 1000 bullets per pound minimum.

That works out to $0.01/bullet maximum for a .45 caliber pistol bullet.

Yeah, for a .223 bullet it takes more powder, but the cost increase is not that significant.

Remember, this tax approaches 50% on the cost of gunpowder. There are many more other more expensive things that go into bullet manufacture.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to RomneyLies (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 06:04 PM

51. Excellent. Nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to RomneyLies (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 06:19 PM

55. I'm sure the Military Industrial Complex and war profiteers would LOVE it! More money for them,

as they get to charge the Government (ie; TAXPAYERS) more due to this increase...


Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Ghost in the Machine (Reply #55)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 07:17 PM

56. The federal govenrment is exempt from federal taxes

 

So the bastards profiteering from war wouldn't get shit from this tax.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to RomneyLies (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 08:38 PM

58. I don't see a problem with that.

Some ammo costs about 75 cents a round now but many other calibers are available at about 35 cents a round. Your proposal would increase the cost of the cheaper rounds to about 50 cents per bullet. Even a poor person who may go to the firing range every few weeks or months to practice can probably afford that.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to RomneyLies (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 12:41 PM

60. Fireworks are going to get pretty expensive. NT

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to AlexSatan (Reply #60)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 02:41 PM

61. Less than 50% more than they are now

 

Deal with it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink

Reply to this thread