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Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:07 PM

The USA needs to confront its true history, genocide and slavery, guns and wars.

The USA was built on armed invasion and the genocide of uncounted Native Nations.

Guns made it possible to steal land from unarmed Natives.
Guns made it possible to steal people from Africa for enslavement in the USA.
Guns made it possible to throw off English rule and invade Ohio.
Guns made it possible to kill every Indian in sight and settle Oregon.
Guns made it possible to steal half of Mexico from Native peoples.
Guns made it possible to force surviving Natives into their concentration camps.

Confronting this history requires doing something about the Native Peoples in the Concentration Camps (reservations).
Confronting this history requires doing something about the stolen lands which rightfully belong to others.
Confronting this history requires doing something about the false history and false idea that the USA is great.

There is one just place where people think the USA is great, inside the USA. The rest of the world knows the facts.
It is about time the people inside the bubble did too.

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Reply The USA needs to confront its true history, genocide and slavery, guns and wars. (Original post)
Coyotl Dec 2012 OP
Cleita Dec 2012 #1
niyad Dec 2012 #2
Coyotl Dec 2012 #5
iemitsu Dec 2012 #28
malaise Dec 2012 #40
cali Dec 2012 #3
Edweird Dec 2012 #4
Libertas1776 Dec 2012 #7
Coyotl Dec 2012 #8
Edweird Dec 2012 #9
Coyotl Dec 2012 #11
byeya Dec 2012 #33
Coyotl Dec 2012 #6
former9thward Dec 2012 #10
Coyotl Dec 2012 #12
former9thward Dec 2012 #13
Coyotl Dec 2012 #15
former9thward Dec 2012 #17
Coyotl Dec 2012 #18
former9thward Dec 2012 #19
Coyotl Dec 2012 #20
former9thward Dec 2012 #21
Coyotl Dec 2012 #22
former9thward Dec 2012 #24
Coyotl Dec 2012 #27
former9thward Dec 2012 #30
a la izquierda Dec 2012 #23
Coyotl Dec 2012 #25
a la izquierda Dec 2012 #29
Coyotl Dec 2012 #37
a la izquierda Dec 2012 #38
cpwm17 Dec 2012 #32
byeya Dec 2012 #35
cpwm17 Dec 2012 #39
Coyotl Dec 2012 #36
liberalhistorian Dec 2012 #14
Coyotl Dec 2012 #16
Coyotl Dec 2012 #26
Zoeisright Dec 2012 #31
byeya Dec 2012 #34

Response to Coyotl (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:10 PM

1. If we did that we would have to make right a lot of the wrongs from our history and most

white Americans are unwilling to do so, let alone admit the crimes of their ancestors.

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Response to Coyotl (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:11 PM

2. don't be surprised at reactions to this post

despite things like howard zinn's "the people's history", many still believe the myths, lies and distortions of the history of this country.

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Response to niyad (Reply #2)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:19 PM

5. A People's History Of The United States by Howard Zinn

A People's History Of The United States
by Howard Zinn - http://www.historyisaweapon.com/zinnapeopleshistory.html

A Note and a disclaimer.

The Note: This great book should really be read by everyone. It is difficult to describe why it so great because it both teaches and inspires. You really just have to read it. We think it is so good that it demands to be as accessible as possible. Once you've finished it, we're sure you'll agree. In fact, years ago, we would offer people twenty dollars if they read the book and didn't think it was completely worth their time. Of all the people who took us up on it, no one collected.

The disclaimer: This version is made from OCR. That is a fancy way of saying that we scanned in and coded over six hundred fifty pages. There will be a few small occasional errors: spelling mistakes, odd punctuation, and the like. If you see any, please contact us. We have posted it in spite of these mistakes for two simple reasons. First, the book is worth a mistake or two because it really deserves the widest audience possible. Second, we are sure that once you new people begin reading it, you'll go out and get a physical copy. You should go and get it (and ones for your friends and family). At this point, A People's History Of The United States is available in regular form, read aloud on audio, on posters, in a teaching edition, and as just the twentieth century chapters (we have all but the posters). And now here. Please Enjoy!

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Response to Coyotl (Reply #5)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 01:07 PM

28. Zinn's book is excellent and should be read by everyone who wants to

considered a responsible citizen. Paperback copies are inexpensive, new, and copies, both soft and hard, can be found at the Goodwill and other secondhand stores (I have bought dozens of copies and given them to students and others who show an interest in the past).
If one hasn't completed Christmas shopping this book is a valuable and worthy gift.

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Response to Coyotl (Reply #5)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 08:27 PM

40. Best book I've read on the History of the USA

by a distance

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Response to Coyotl (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:12 PM

3. this is just shallow and silly

sophomoric at best. I've long thought the polar opposite of American rah rah exceptionalism is the America is pure evil jargon.

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Response to Coyotl (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:15 PM

4. Well at least you're not perpetuating the "we weren't violent before" BS.

 

We are violent. Always have been. Not just the USA but the whole world. Humans are violent. Nature is violent.

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Response to Edweird (Reply #4)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:27 PM

7. +1

morbidly enough, what the OP claims is sort of a form of American exceptional-ism....in that we are some how exceptionally evil. Yes we have an ugly history, and Americans need to learn to face it. Other Western countries have equally if not uglier histories, but the difference is they learned or are learning to face it. But the idea that we are somehow unique in those atrocities, particularly against slaves and aboriginal people, is a farce.

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Response to Edweird (Reply #4)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:14 PM

8. Culture determines violence moreso than instinct.

The whole of humanity is NOT equally violent, and human behavior and cultural programming is under our control.

The problem today in the USA may well be that control of culture has been ceded to the media and corporatism and is oriented towards consumerism rather than directed towards a better human future.

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Response to Coyotl (Reply #8)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:03 PM

9. Whatever helps you sleep at night......

 

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Response to Edweird (Reply #9)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:21 PM

11. I can tell which culture you are from. Defensive yet?

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Response to Coyotl (Reply #11)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 02:26 PM

33. Anthropology informs us that there are cultures where violence within it is virtually

 

unknown. But, the culture is fully capable of reacting violently when confronted with an invading culture.

Militarism greatly increases the incidence of violence within a society as well as increases the incidence of spousal abuse.

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Response to Coyotl (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:25 PM

6. Mass Shootings In U.S. Since 2005 (MAP)

Mass Shootings In U.S. Since 2005 (MAP)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/14/mass-shootings-around-the-us-amp_n_2303432.html

In the last 30 years, there have been 61 shootings across the country in which at least four people have been killed. Eleven of those incidents, according to Mother Jones, took place at schools.

Friday's shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary is the second deadliest school shooting in the country's history, after only Virginia Tech, ......

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Response to Coyotl (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:08 PM

10. "The rest of the world knows the facts."

Please name another country in the world that does not have a history of blood and horrific violence as part of recorded history.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #10)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:23 PM

12. O.K.

In Cuzco on Sept. 18, 1589, the last survivor of the original conquerors of Peru, Don Mancio Serra de Leguisamo, wrote in the preamble of his will the following in parts:

"We found these kingdoms in such good order, and the said Incas governed them in such wise that throughout them there was not a thief, nor a vicious man, nor an adulteress, nor was a bad woman admitted among them, nor were there immoral people. The men had honest and useful occupations. The lands, forests, mines, pastures, houses and all kinds of products were regulated and distributed in such sort that each one knew his property without any other person seizing it or occupying it, nor were there law suits respecting it...

"...the motive which obliges me to make this statement is the discharge of my conscience, as I find myself guilty. For we have destroyed by our evil example, the people who had such a government as was enjoyed by these natives. They were so free from the committal of crimes or excesses, as well men as women, that the Indian who had 100,000 pesos worth of gold or silver in his house, left it open merely placing a small stick against the door, as a sign that its master was out. With that, according to their custom, no one could enter or take anything that was there. When they saw that we put locks and keys on our doors, they supposed that it was from fear of them, that they might not kill us, but not because they believed that anyone would steal the property of another. So that when they found that we had thieves among us, and men who sought to make their daughters commit sin, they despised us."

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Response to Coyotl (Reply #12)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:30 PM

13. Thanks for the softball.

Inca Sacrifice Victims "Fattened Up" Before Death Children selected for Inca ritual sacrifice were "fattened up" with high-protein diets in the months leading up to their deaths, a new study has found.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/10/071003-inca-sacrifice.html

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Response to former9thward (Reply #13)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:23 PM

15. imperial propaganda organ

not known for caring about facts

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Response to Coyotl (Reply #15)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:27 PM

17. It must be nice to live in alternative universes.

With your own set of comfortable "facts".

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Response to former9thward (Reply #17)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 08:56 PM

18. It is nice to live in a different culture

Last edited Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:56 PM - Edit history (1)

with our own set of real "facts" about ourselves, rather than accepting someone in Washington, D.C. or Spain as a determinative authority on who we are!

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Response to Coyotl (Reply #18)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:40 PM

19. National Geographic is an imperialist publication now!

Who knew?

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Response to former9thward (Reply #19)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:59 PM

20. They certainly share the same racism and cultural biases that enable "othering"

and they really make shit up all the time. If you were from a Native community you would understand these facts. Do Native scholars write about child sacrifice in the USA. Do our Native scholars call you cannibals? No, not even when there is real evidence in our time that a white guy eats people.

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Response to Coyotl (Reply #20)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 12:36 PM

21. Take your anti-science crap elesewhere.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #21)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 12:46 PM

22. Only one problem with that,

I'm a leading scientist in the field.

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Response to Coyotl (Reply #22)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 12:52 PM

24. Anybody can say anything on the internet.

You just proved it. Since you are a "leading scientist" you can link me to a peer reviewed journal article which disproves the link I posted.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #24)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 12:59 PM

27. You are the person promoting this sacrifice idea. Post one peer-reviewed article to back it up.

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Response to Coyotl (Reply #27)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 01:38 PM

30. I am not promoting it. National Geographic did.

Along with countless others that come up on a routine search. The "leading scientist in the field" couldn't come up with anything. I wonder why? You have been exposed.

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Response to Coyotl (Reply #12)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 12:47 PM

23. Sorry, this is BS.

I teach Latin American history (specifically indigenous peoples) for a living. Violence in indigenous communities was different than today, but there sure as hell was violence. They fought wars, they conquered one another, they lived, breathed, and died like any other human community. Do not make an essentialist argument, it does nothing to further your claim.

Read Charles Mann's 1491. The Incas, Mexica, and Mayas had state religions. They exploited the environment. It is not good or bad, it just is.

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Response to a la izquierda (Reply #23)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 12:56 PM

25. But are you an indigineous person?

Or do you teach what the Spaniards wrote about Natives? I recommend you read the guides to ethnohistorical sources and assess the validity of those false stories.

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Response to Coyotl (Reply #25)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 01:08 PM

29. Nope, I'm not. I was raised in a family with members...

of the Anishinabe nation. But I am not, by "blood" a native person. It has never bothered the indigenous communities with which I've worked.
And I teach what native communities said about themselves and their experiences. You cannot teach history from one perspective, by the way. I explain to my students that what the Spanish, Portuguese and other Europeans wrote about native populations was based on racism, misunderstanding, and hatred. I explain that thinking about human sacrifice is not possible from a 21st century perspective, because that perspective can never understand Mexica religious beliefs they way they truly were. I inform my students that I will not tolerate judgments of indigenous religious beliefs because indigenous worldviews are different from EuroAmerican worldviews.

Don't you dare try to pull the crap that only indigenous people can teach indigenous history. I've heard it before and it's an essentialist argument. Do you think only Irish people can teach Irish history? Italian people Italian history? I could go on.

I have a PhD in the ethnohistory of indigenous peoples of Latin America.

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Response to a la izquierda (Reply #29)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 04:34 PM

37. So you know the ethnohistorical writings called Jews cannibals too?

And modern historians who accept the ethnohistorical writings just overlook that "problem" when accepting the writings as sources of their claims.

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Response to Coyotl (Reply #37)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 05:08 PM

38. What the hell sources are you talking about?

Do tell me what ethnohistorians you mean? Those are some vague, vicious claims you made, and you're way of expressing yourself is verging on broadbrushed, racist attacks.

Or don't respond, I don't care. I've wearied of defending myself to someone who will clearly find something new to attack with ( because you're not actually responding to anything I'm writing). Besides I don't really need to defend myself to some anonymous Internet commando.

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Response to Coyotl (Reply #12)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 02:18 PM

32. We live in the most peaceful time in human history



Steven Pinker charts the decline of violence from Biblical times to the present.

It is true that the US has a bad history of aggressive wars and human rights violations; but the native people in the Americas and elsewhere were also perfectly capable of inflicting great amounts of violence against their fellow man.

When graves are uncovered from ancient times, including from various native tribes from around the world, archaeologists find that a large percentage of the bodies show signs of suffering a violent death. People around the world are far safer from violent death now than in any time ever in human history.

Some American politicians and war promoters do need to get the memo that violence is on the way out.

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Response to cpwm17 (Reply #32)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 02:34 PM

35. I wonder how Pinker deals with the lack of graves, but not lack of deaths, from Hiroshima

 

and Nagasaki.

I would not use Pinker as a source on human behavior.

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Response to byeya (Reply #35)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 08:25 PM

39. He used all available sources to determine the violent death rate

This includes all forms of murder: whether from war or from one-on-one conflict.

He shows that the violent death rate has gone down since WWII.

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Response to cpwm17 (Reply #32)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 04:10 PM

36. That depends upon where you live and where in the past you are making a comparison to.

There is no way such a broad brush assertion can be proven.

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Response to Coyotl (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:34 PM

14. Bob Dylan wrote a song, covered by

Joan Baez, that exemplifies this aspect of our history perfectly; it's called "God on our Side" and the lyrics are truly chilling. It goes through our whole history from the Revolution to when he wrote it in the 60's, with each verse ending in "with God on our side." There's one that talks about the pioneer settlers and the war against the Indians that ends with "with their guns in their hands and God on their side." It may be nearly fifty years old, but it sure speaks to today; all true art is timeless.

ETA: okay, I just found a great video on youtube of Joan Baez's cover of the song (the best version, frankly, and the one I first heard and learned, back in the mid-80's, in a Vietnam history class, no less). It has the song with pictures to go along with each verse. I hadn't heard it in almost twenty years, so I'm a bit wrong on some of what I said about it, but the gist is the same. One of the most chilling lines in it, next to "with their guns in their hands and God on their side", is the line that ends the verse regarding World War I: "for you don't count the dead when God's on your side". Kind of reminds you of the RW gun nut attitude, doesn't it?

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Response to liberalhistorian (Reply #14)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:27 PM

16. The Indians died with God on our side.

Thanks for posting this.

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Response to Coyotl (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 12:57 PM

26. Without guns, the Europeans would all likely be very crowded in Europe today.

Guns are tools of genocide all too often. Face it.

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Response to Coyotl (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 01:40 PM

31. Guns, Germs, and Steel is a great book.

Even though I don't like Jared Diamond.

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Response to Zoeisright (Reply #31)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 02:31 PM

34. I don't care for Diamond either. I think Marvin Harris is a better source although GG&S has

 

many interesting points.

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