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Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:43 AM

Everybody talks gun control, but nobody talks about increasing funding for mental health services

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Reply Everybody talks gun control, but nobody talks about increasing funding for mental health services (Original post)
tawadi Dec 2012 OP
Brickbat Dec 2012 #1
tawadi Dec 2012 #3
we can do it Dec 2012 #9
TwilightGardener Dec 2012 #25
we can do it Dec 2012 #33
Robyn66 Dec 2012 #84
janlyn Dec 2012 #95
Robyn66 Dec 2012 #110
tawadi Dec 2012 #99
Robyn66 Dec 2012 #108
Posteritatis Dec 2012 #116
TwilightGardener Dec 2012 #100
Robyn66 Dec 2012 #109
marble falls Dec 2012 #86
AverageJoe90 Dec 2012 #11
Auggie Dec 2012 #47
shireen Dec 2012 #82
TwilightGardener Dec 2012 #2
tawadi Dec 2012 #7
TwilightGardener Dec 2012 #35
tawadi Dec 2012 #44
SheilaT Dec 2012 #91
TwilightGardener Dec 2012 #106
bettyellen Dec 2012 #51
TwilightGardener Dec 2012 #105
bettyellen Dec 2012 #107
TwilightGardener Dec 2012 #111
bettyellen Dec 2012 #112
TwilightGardener Dec 2012 #113
bettyellen Dec 2012 #118
treestar Dec 2012 #83
TwilightGardener Dec 2012 #101
treestar Dec 2012 #120
Posteritatis Dec 2012 #117
alcibiades_mystery Dec 2012 #4
tawadi Dec 2012 #12
alcibiades_mystery Dec 2012 #26
tawadi Dec 2012 #28
alcibiades_mystery Dec 2012 #30
tawadi Dec 2012 #37
alcibiades_mystery Dec 2012 #40
tawadi Dec 2012 #43
alcibiades_mystery Dec 2012 #45
tex-wyo-dem Dec 2012 #79
primavera Dec 2012 #89
Kolesar Dec 2012 #13
FarPoint Dec 2012 #5
tawadi Dec 2012 #8
AverageJoe90 Dec 2012 #6
whathehell Dec 2012 #60
Kolesar Dec 2012 #10
tawadi Dec 2012 #15
Kolesar Dec 2012 #23
tawadi Dec 2012 #31
liberal_at_heart Dec 2012 #92
Kolesar Dec 2012 #97
AverageJoe90 Dec 2012 #16
dembotoz Dec 2012 #14
AverageJoe90 Dec 2012 #17
tawadi Dec 2012 #18
cbdo2007 Dec 2012 #19
tawadi Dec 2012 #21
bettyellen Dec 2012 #55
tawadi Dec 2012 #70
bettyellen Dec 2012 #103
ejpoeta Dec 2012 #58
tawadi Dec 2012 #68
cbdo2007 Dec 2012 #85
HappyMe Dec 2012 #42
Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2012 #53
HappyMe Dec 2012 #57
cbdo2007 Dec 2012 #90
Posteritatis Dec 2012 #114
Lifelong Protester Dec 2012 #20
tawadi Dec 2012 #24
Lifelong Protester Dec 2012 #50
tawadi Dec 2012 #67
Lifelong Protester Dec 2012 #73
riverwalker Dec 2012 #22
tawadi Dec 2012 #27
Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2012 #49
FedUpWithIt All Dec 2012 #52
Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2012 #59
Live and Learn Dec 2012 #93
HappyMe Dec 2012 #29
tawadi Dec 2012 #32
Lizzie Poppet Dec 2012 #34
tawadi Dec 2012 #36
Lizzie Poppet Dec 2012 #39
dembotoz Dec 2012 #38
tawadi Dec 2012 #41
HappyMe Dec 2012 #46
Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2012 #48
Posteritatis Dec 2012 #115
Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2012 #119
RomneyLies Dec 2012 #54
Zoeisright Dec 2012 #56
FarCenter Dec 2012 #61
rbrnmw Dec 2012 #62
Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2012 #63
HappyMe Dec 2012 #66
dave502d2 Dec 2012 #64
hrmjustin Dec 2012 #65
Fearless Dec 2012 #69
underpants Dec 2012 #71
arthritisR_US Dec 2012 #72
Celebration Dec 2012 #74
littlemissmartypants Dec 2012 #75
caraher Dec 2012 #76
geckosfeet Dec 2012 #77
Spitfire of ATJ Dec 2012 #78
treestar Dec 2012 #80
shireen Dec 2012 #81
AndyA Dec 2012 #87
Live and Learn Dec 2012 #94
mettamega Dec 2012 #88
coalition_unwilling Dec 2012 #96
xxxsdesdexxx Dec 2012 #98
AldoLeopold Dec 2012 #102
John2 Dec 2012 #104

Response to tawadi (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:45 AM

1. Or changing the culture of stigmatization against getting help for one's self or family when it

comes to mental health care. Or changing the culture of violence through governmental, private and nonprofit work to break the cycle of violence in families. Or respecting anti-bullying initiatives instead of laughing them off. Or fixing our child welfare infrastructure. Or funding education in a way that fewer kids fall through the cracks and they all get the help they need. It's all connected.

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Response to Brickbat (Reply #1)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:47 AM

3. All of the above

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Response to Brickbat (Reply #1)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:51 AM

9. I got my head bitten off earlier for suggesting family notice the shooter needed help.

Other students he went to school with noticed he was at least odd, why not the family? Not condemning just asking? This also applies to the other shooters, like Gabby Gifford's. What will it take for other families to speak up?

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Response to we can do it (Reply #9)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:59 AM

25. His brother had mentioned several diagnoses (Aspergers,

personality disorder)--obviously, the family had taken him in for help in the past, and reports say now that the mom stayed home with him--so they knew he was not right. It wasn't enough in the face of a small arsenal of guns right in the family home, waiting for a mentally disturbed 20-year-old to have a psychotic break and kill the only person that seemed to care about him (his mom) and then take out an elementary school of little kids he didn't know. Mental illness is one part of the equation--availability of guns is the other.

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Response to TwilightGardener (Reply #25)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:08 AM

33. Thanks for filling me in. Just wondering why she had the guns knowing about his problems.

Also, how the medical industry (yes, I meant that) failed him and his family and community. How do they continually underestimate the severity of these troubled persons?

I still think the easy access to guns is the big problem.

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Response to TwilightGardener (Reply #25)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:00 PM

84. Aspergers isn't a personality disorder

He may have had Apergers with a personality disorder but it is dangerous to characterize Autism like that, I'm not saying you are I heard the news was calling it a personality disorder so this is basically an FYI.

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Response to Robyn66 (Reply #84)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:41 PM

95. Thank you Robyn

I have aspberger's. I am NOT mentally ill. I am NOT violent. I am ordinary in everyway..

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Response to janlyn (Reply #95)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:41 PM

110. Yes you are extrodinary!

as is my wonderful daughter! I think Aspies are our next evolutionary step!

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Response to Robyn66 (Reply #84)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:08 PM

99. Never even heard the word "Aspergers" in any of the news sources I read. Only "Personality Disorder"

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Response to tawadi (Reply #99)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:39 PM

108. I have heard different news reports mixing the two

Not good, although it will get cleared up I'm sure. I have kind of radar for that because my beautiful daughter has Aspergers.

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Response to tawadi (Reply #99)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:38 PM

116. I've heard it a couple of times, rather stupidly used synonymously with "personality disorder." (nt)

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Response to Robyn66 (Reply #84)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:14 PM

100. No, I know that--I have a relative with Aspergers. I thought this

guy had both Aspergers AND a personality disorder, two separate diagnoses. But it is important that people understand they are not the same thing, you are right.

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Response to TwilightGardener (Reply #100)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:40 PM

109. Its too bad how these things can get mixed up

we just have to stay vigilent and keep people educated

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Response to we can do it (Reply #9)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:13 PM

86. The gun control only crew are way too upset to discuss this calmly.

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Response to Brickbat (Reply #1)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:52 AM

11. All very good.

Sadly, though, right-wing talking heads and those in the MSM who enable them, don't want to talk about ANY of this. Instead, they'll blame hip-hop, or violent video games, etc.

In fact, Michael Moore wrote a damn good article on the subject just this last summer:

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/mike-friends-blog/its-guns-we-all-know-its-not-really-guns

I might just end up reposting this. It's that important.

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Response to Brickbat (Reply #1)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:30 AM

47. +1,000,000

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Response to Brickbat (Reply #1)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:55 PM

82. +1,000,000

Yes. Exactly.
Gun control talks have been going in circles for decades now. It has to be addressed.

But mental health support is far more urgent.

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Response to tawadi (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:46 AM

2. In this case, this kid didn't need funding for mental health services--

his family was fairly wealthy and he almost certainly had access to care. What this kid needed was someone to make sure he couldn't access guns. Instead, his mom bought four of them.

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Response to TwilightGardener (Reply #2)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:48 AM

7. Somewhere along the line, he didn't get the help he needed

Don't know if he possible could have gotten more help in school as he was growing up. Like the post above talks about, there is the stigma.

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Response to tawadi (Reply #7)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:09 AM

35. He got help. But in a mental health crisis, it's pretty important

not to have guns and ammo sitting around. You don't hand car keys to a drunk. End of story.

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Response to TwilightGardener (Reply #35)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:22 AM

44. I really cannot comprehend this

If a child has a mental illness severe enough to be medicated, why would a parent keep ammo and guns accessible? Wtf? The words of the older brother are revealing. Upon hearing the news, he said "If its my brother, then my mother's dead."

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Response to tawadi (Reply #44)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:29 PM

91. I realize I have no idea what the mother was

thinking, keeping the guns and ammo around, but I'm going to speculate that despite all of the mass shootings that happen with sickening regularity in this country, she simply made no connection between guns and her son. Never ever in a million years considered the possibility that he might gain access to the guns and do something with them. As if such a thing never happens.

While this is on a very different level, think of all the times that a child gets hold of a family gun and "accidentally" shoots someone, often fatally. I put the word accidentally in quotes because every single time the public reaction is that what happened was a totally unforeseen tragedy. No. When guns are so readily available, such things will happen. And happen again.

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Response to SheilaT (Reply #91)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:29 PM

106. You bring up a good point--surely they watched the tragedies

unfold in CO and Oregon, and saw that it was mentally troubled young men--why did this mother and father not see the possibility of their own son at least committing suicide at home, with psychiatric problems and accessibility to guns? I would hope that this tragedy causes some families to do some soul-searching about the young men in their lives, and maybe decide that having a gun isn't worth the risk of suicide and violence.

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Response to TwilightGardener (Reply #35)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:42 AM

51. you think its so easy to get help for a young adult? you cannot force the police to take them

you can't force them to take meds or commit them unless there's imminent danger. hospitals will take you for a month and spit you out when coverage ends.

http://www.nami.org/template.cfm?Section=Family-to-Family&lstid=751

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #51)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:24 PM

105. I didn't say that. I said it's crucial not to allow them to have

guns and ammo in a mental health crisis. I'm not saying that the mental health system in this country is functioning well, or accessible. I'm saying this kid probably had more access to help than others, and had been receiving treatment at some point. And this still happened, because he was able to get a hold of four firearms right from his own house, while his violent impulses were fresh.

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Response to TwilightGardener (Reply #105)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:38 PM

107. and your totally right about that. Just saying access doesn't mean he would willingly accept

treatment, and you can't get outside help until the endangering behavior is happening. And usually then you get a 3-4 week stay until insurance runs out.
Parents literally have very few options if they are afraid of future violence except to put them out of the street.
Education, support with earlier interventions are key. Right now, the system makes it hell for families.

The guns were foolish if she didn't have them secured. But our society leaves parents in a position where they try to be full time caregivers to young people who should instead be getting out into the world forging a life. The resentment and despair can build up on both sides.

It's not working. Less demonization of mental illness, and much more support and education is desperately needed. For every killer like him, there's thousands of quietly ill hiding at home that we choose not to think about.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #107)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:51 PM

111. I understand--I am going through similar issues in my

own family, and trying to find a loved one some good counseling and treatment. So I see the mental health side of it, and the difficulty that families have in coming to grips with illness and adequate treatment--but I do believe that the number one thing you do FIRST is make sure you don't have assault rifles and handguns and ammo at arm's reach. We agree that that was just an obvious mistake, and I think maybe some tighter gun restrictions might help in the future. But it's kind of heartbreaking to know that his mom probably tried her best to help him, and it was too much for one parent--his dad was off married to another woman in another state, his older brother hadn't dealt with him in years. She alone had a tremendous burden to deal with, and in the end, she was shot in the face and killed despite her devotion.

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Response to TwilightGardener (Reply #111)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:12 PM

112. If you aren't using Nami as a resource, it's worth a looksee.

http://www.nami.org/template.cfm?Section=Family-to-Family&lstid=751

It's an awful position this woman found herself in. When my brother was ill, all my mother could do was watch for was signs he would hurt her other kids. It's no way to live. He went through the revolving door of the system for four or five years before opting to take his life. It was a truly hopeless situation back then. But people are still so ignorant forty years later, it's awful.
Good luck to you.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #112)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:34 PM

113. Thanks--I just looked at their website this week and found it

helpful.

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Response to TwilightGardener (Reply #113)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:48 PM

118. wonderful. i wish you all the strength and luck you'll need for this task.

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Response to TwilightGardener (Reply #2)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:56 PM

83. Yes, and making the point above about

too much shame for seeking mental health services and refusing to admit they are needed.

I have a relative who won't deal with his son's asperger's/autism and keeps insisting he is OK. That is even another issue. We have to get over this as a society.

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Response to treestar (Reply #83)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:17 PM

101. I think nobody wants their kid to have a "mark" against them

for life. You just deny it and hope they grow out of it, is the plan. It is a shame, because there is therapy and treatment for just about everything.

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Response to TwilightGardener (Reply #101)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 11:04 AM

120. That's another thing, we need to quit seeing such things

as marks against people for life. Dammit, getting treatment for psychological problems is a responsible thing to do, only the ignorant would hold that against somebody, and in effect, allow the untreated people with the same problem access to whatever it is that the treatment is supposed to be a negative mark for.

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Response to treestar (Reply #83)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:39 PM

117. Yep. Denial of mental health issues, or fearing them as a black mark, are both Bad Things. (nt)

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Response to tawadi (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:47 AM

4. I'm quite sure that most people understand we need both

The attempts by the gun lobby to completely change the subject to mental illness, however, is usually recognized for exactly what it is: a fucking dodge of the worst sort. There are mentally ill people in all cultures and countries, distributed randomly as part of the population. In the US, we provide them with the "tools" to engage in fairly easy mass murder. That's an issue.

Of course we need a more comprehensive mental health system, and that means lots of spending and higher taxes. We also need comprehensive gun control that makes it damn near impossible for the mentally ill to murder dozens of people in two or three minutes.

No shit.

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Response to alcibiades_mystery (Reply #4)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:52 AM

12. Answer me this

Do you think there was a CT gun law requiring the mother's guns be locked away safely? I wonder. I wonder if any gun law could have prevented this tragedy.

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Response to tawadi (Reply #12)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:00 AM

26. A law preventing her from owning multiple ridiculous guns of that kind certainly could have

You're not being imaginative enough. Our gun laws are a velvet glove gift to the gun lobby. Lock the guns up? How about nobody possesses firepower sufficient to the task? Or it's so prohibitive to get that firepower that few can be bothered? Lock up the guns? If that's your idea of gun laws, it's no wonder you think they'll be ineffective. You imagine our weak ass do nothing gun laws, then inform us that they are weak ass and do nothing. No fucking shit. We need them multiplied by a thousand fold in restrictiveness. Then we'll talk about effectiveness. We need actual restrictive gun laws. You ain't seen nothing yet.

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Response to alcibiades_mystery (Reply #26)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:02 AM

28. Don't you think it's late for that, in our country?

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Response to tawadi (Reply #28)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:04 AM

30. No

I don't. And I recognize claims that "we can't possibly do anything about that" to be another fucking useless dodge of the gun manufacturers and their flunkies. We can do anything we damn well please legislatively. That's what progressive government is all about. And if you're ready to bring up the 300 million guns already out there, I'm perfectly happy to start talking legislation for confiscation, also completely possible and probably desirable. Nothing is impossible, despite the bullshit dodges of the gun manufacturers and their flunkies. We are in a public health emergency, and the crisis has to be dealt with.

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Response to alcibiades_mystery (Reply #30)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:12 AM

37. The right to bear arms & all that

You are proposing changing our constitution?

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Response to tawadi (Reply #37)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:15 AM

40. That would be ideal

Barring complete repeal, restrictions up the wazoo, making it damn near impossible to possessing the kind of firepower sufficient to the task. Firepower necessary to kill a deer from a hunting blind, by the way, is far different from the firepower necessary to mow down twenty kindergarteners in a five minute span of time. Once the ridiculous money-hungry gun lobby and their sucker flunkies are forced to get that through their skulls, we'll stop having little kids getting bullets through their skulls.

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Response to alcibiades_mystery (Reply #40)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:19 AM

43. I hope you're right. I hope gun laws can and would save lives.

Unfortunately the problems run deeper.

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Response to tawadi (Reply #43)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:24 AM

45. All problems run deeper

In 1981, the problems of HIV/AIDS ran deeper than simply the amplification effect of the bath houses. But we closed the bath houses, and that helped. A lot. It helped in changing the culture, and helped in changing individual practices, and it slowed the spread of the virus. And don't think there weren't thousands ho viewed the closure as an affront to liberty. they slowed closure by three years in the midst of the epidemic, and cost many thousands of people their lives, just as the gun manufacturers and their sucker flunkies are doing today. We are currently in a public health epidemic as serious as that. of course it is multifactorial. No shit. that doesn't mean we don't act meaningfully. It means we act multiply.

The idea that problems are multifactorial and complex is not particularly original or insightful. Of course they are. Every adult knows that. The dodge, the fucking despicable dodge, is when we use the complexity of problems as a reason for doing NOTHING.

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Response to alcibiades_mystery (Reply #45)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:51 PM

79. +1000, alcibiades_mystery!

Couldn't agree with you more. This is a multifactorial problem. Almost every problem is due to multiple factors, but this fact shouldn't be used as an excuse to do nothing.

Changing the culture of violence and guns is a biggie and can be started by changing the laws.

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Response to tawadi (Reply #12)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:29 PM

89. I think you are looking too technically at the role of law

Law isn't just about creating technical offenses for which punishment can be enforced. It's about contributing to a culture and a social norm with respect to a particular area of behavior. Sure, part of the reason that we have mass shootings is because it's all too easy for a mentally unstable person to obtain weapons capable of inflicting massive harm in a very short period of time. But another part of the reason is that our culture glorifies guns. We embrace them as part of our rugged, frontiersman identity; the bold, self-reliant American, who can solve any problem and set to rights any injustice with his good heart and his trusty six shooter. It's like we're all taught that we should want to be John Wayne, who would never set foot out the door without his faithful Winchester with which to fight off the evil Injuns. That culture of perceiving the world as an inherently hostile place, against which one must arm one's self, I believe plays an important role in the staggering number of gun deaths that occur each year in this country. I suspect that, on some subconscious level, perpetrators believe themselves to be kindred souls with Charles Bronson, Clint Eastwood, Keifer Sutherland, Michael Douglas, or Robert de Niro - courageous antiheroes who recognize injustice and will accept the burden of responsibility for doing what it takes to remedy it in the face of an inept and corrupt government's inefficacy.

I think that cultural message can be influenced by law. If we pass laws aimed at emphasizing the responsibilities that accompany gun ownership, rather than focussing exclusively on the perceived right of every American to own their own .45 as soon as they pop out of the womb, that could, over time, influence our culture that presently encourages gun violence.

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Response to alcibiades_mystery (Reply #4)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:52 AM

13. +1 and +1 ... eom

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Response to tawadi (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:47 AM

5. Inpatient services are currently bare bones status.

Agreed that such services need a huge upgrade.

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Response to FarPoint (Reply #5)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:50 AM

8. Even some of wealthy can't keep a troubled teen in an institution when its needed.

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Response to tawadi (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:47 AM

6. Exactly!

Funny how a lot of these same people out there whining about "gun-grabbing" are often the very same people complaining about how dangerous violent video games supposedly are, or how today's kids have a supposed "lack of discipline", etc.

Sadly, it seems that there's a few people on this site who buy into the former, and yes, blaming "violent media" IS a right-wing talking point, there's NO two ways about it.

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Response to AverageJoe90 (Reply #6)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:53 AM

60. You may be a big fan of GTA, but you can hardly argue against the idea

that violent video games are NOT part of the "culture of violence", because they are.

OBVIOUSLY they are not a singular "cause" of tragedies like this latest massacre,

and no one of sanity would say they are, BUT it's ridiculous to assert that they're not

part of that culture.


By the way, did GTA, after the protests of misogyny, finally do away with the "rape 'em and kill 'em" part of the game?

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Response to tawadi (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:51 AM

10. The weaponeers seem to be running with this "mental health and antidepressants" meme lately

I am pretty sure that it is RW-think-tank and focus-group tested.

It's like climate change deniers--every year they are launching different propaganda and feigning concern about the victims.

From yesterday: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021985614

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Response to Kolesar (Reply #10)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:54 AM

15. Weaponeers?

I don't even own a gun. But even if they were illegal, since they are everywhere in the US, I could certainly get my hands on one if I wanted.

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Response to tawadi (Reply #15)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:59 AM

23. We had a two year debate on mental-health care coverage that ended with Obamacare

Yes, it was broader than mental health care, but you cannot say that we are ignoring the mental health care debate in the USA.

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Response to Kolesar (Reply #23)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:06 AM

31. I don't know what the answer is

If gun laws change, and if people still go on rampages, I guess then we'll know.

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Response to Kolesar (Reply #23)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:33 PM

92. My husband had to beg a psychiatrist on the phone to get an appointment

My husband was sufferring from severe depression and borderline bipolar. He wanted help and it took two months to get it. None of the psychiatrists he contacted had room in their schedule. He had to beg for his life on the phone before one of them finally agreed to find room in his schedule. Yes, we do ignore mental health care in this country. Obamacare did not magically fix everything.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #92)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:04 PM

97. that isn't what I said...eom

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Response to Kolesar (Reply #10)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:54 AM

16. The RWers have been blaming violent video games, too.

There's an ambulance-chasing Rethuglican crook named Jack Thompson whose exploits are particularly well-known to the GTA fan community, because of all the shit he's pulled. (A quick Google search can help you get started.). And he's far from alone.

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Response to tawadi (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:53 AM

14. seriously what are the odds???

we have trouble getting cancer treatment paid for

half the fricken country thinks obamacare is socialist

people do not understand mental illness
they think it is a personality flaw
that the person just needs to pray harder
or work harder

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Response to dembotoz (Reply #14)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:55 AM

17. Or stop playing GTA or CounterStrike. n/t

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Response to dembotoz (Reply #14)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:55 AM

18. So sad. But true.

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Response to tawadi (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:57 AM

19. You have to want help.....to get help.

No matter how much money and resources you throw into it, you can't force people who are simply depressed or have non-violent mental health issues to get treatment.

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Response to cbdo2007 (Reply #19)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:58 AM

21. I thought there were laws about "if a person is a danger to himself or others"?

No?

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Response to tawadi (Reply #21)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:44 AM

55. only at the time of danger, the episode passes and you're back to square one

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #55)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:31 PM

70. Don't know that. Thanks. eom

Last edited Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:32 PM - Edit history (1)

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Response to tawadi (Reply #70)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:21 PM

103. you have to get the consent of the mentally ill which is difficult to do when its full blown

and basically they put them on meds and 3-4 visits to check how they are working a year. Families need much more support readily available before things get too far. And the ill need more attention and support too. They often don't have jobs, or much outside their family - who might be at their wits end not knowing how to cope and fractured badly.
It's very difficult to predict who is going to hurt anyone or when.
I'm shocked to hear how people assume this stuff has an easy solution the mother overlooked.

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Response to tawadi (Reply #21)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:48 AM

58. i think in my state (ny) you have to have 2 family members and a doctor

to put someone in against their will. i have a friend who can't get his anorexic wife help because her family refuses to believe she has a problem. they think HE is the problem. so she is wasting way to nothing.

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Response to ejpoeta (Reply #58)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:30 PM

68. Sad

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Response to tawadi (Reply #21)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:09 PM

85. Yeah.....go to Walmart today and make a list of all the people who are a danger to themselves

or others.

I'm guessing you're thinking "How the hell would I know that??". Exactly!

Besides, having suicidal or homicidal ideation is one thing.....acting on it is completely different and many times it isn't the ones who have been vocal about their thoughts who are the ones who pull it off successfully.

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Response to cbdo2007 (Reply #19)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:18 AM

42. That's when caring family members and friends step up.

If people had the right information to know what to look for, and provide a gentle non-judgemental support system it would make all the difference in the world.

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Response to HappyMe (Reply #42)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:43 AM

53. We "stepped up" and for our efforts got a stack of restraining orders

Our relative needed a padded cell and a fuck-ton of pharmaceuticals, not a group hug.

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Response to Sen. Walter Sobchak (Reply #53)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:47 AM

57. Then that situation and it's

laws and regulations need to be looked at.

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Response to HappyMe (Reply #42)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:29 PM

90. Good, so now it's the family member's fault they didn't get help for their sick

family member???

Do you live here in the USA and see what's going on?!?! I bet we have a better chance of banning all the guns than getting family members to actually pay attention to one another based on some public service announcement.

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Response to cbdo2007 (Reply #19)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:36 PM

114. You also have to be able to get help to get help.

Someone staring $1,000/mo in prescription costs in the face, or health "coverage" that will only cover their condition for sixty days, is not likely to bother.

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Response to tawadi (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:58 AM

20. I agree. How about for starters we take the subsidies

given to big Oil and use that to fund mental health care and clinics? As a school administrator, I see a lot of kids and families that need MH care, but can't afford it or cannot find a clinic nearby.

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Response to Lifelong Protester (Reply #20)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:59 AM

24. As a school administrator, let me ask you a question

If a child appears to have a "personality disorder" is their case followed up by school counselors or left up to the parents?

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Response to tawadi (Reply #24)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:39 AM

50. at school, you can only do so much

Technically, you address what will possibly be an impediment to academic success.

But in reality, we follow up, and, sorry to say, badger the parents as much as possible to seek help. We do have lists of agencies we share with them, heck, I've even been in on meetings where WE phone the agency and then hand the phone to the parent. We do all we can. Always wish we could do more sometimes.

But as it goes, sometimes nobody wants to listen to us, even though at any one time there might be over 100 years of experience (collectively!) in the room, trying to help parents help their kid.

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Response to Lifelong Protester (Reply #50)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:26 PM

67. This is one of many problems. The "it takes a village" concept can't happen

There is no solution when it's left up to the parents and the parents to little or often nothing.

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Response to tawadi (Reply #67)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:38 PM

73. Right, we get it drummed into our heads as educators

that even if we feel it in 'our bones' or gut, or whatever, we CANNOT make anything that sounds like a medical diagnosis. We have to back off on that, so it is left to parents, which is very frustrating.

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Response to tawadi (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:58 AM

22. Agree, but this family had access to the best

care money can buy. Dad making $900K per year, provided for all Adam needed, yet this tragedy still happened.
Imagine poorer families trying to deal with similar situations without resources.

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Response to riverwalker (Reply #22)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:00 AM

27. Like I said above, even the wealthy can't afford to institutionalize some children. eom

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Response to tawadi (Reply #27)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:39 AM

49. It isn't a question of affording it,

There is simply no mechanism to force treatment in most situations.

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Response to riverwalker (Reply #22)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:42 AM

52. I don't think the problem is strictly the ability to afford personal care

I think it's more an issue of the "system", treating our mentally ill, needing the funding to work more effectively. There is no doubt that many of the most dangerous killers in this country already had access to mental health care. The care they received was clearly not helping them or at the very least was ineffective at sorting out those with dangerous tendencies.

The questions then become "Why?" and "How can we change the outcomes?"

I am ALL for gun controls. There is no "but" to that statement. I think it is long past necessary for us to reevaluate and actually do something about that situation. I am also ALL for improved social resources for those who suffer amongst us. I understand that gun controls will not solve the whole problem of violence in this country. These things are NEVER black and white like that. Sick people need care and sick and violent people who are already receiving care should be limited in the harm they can cause.

Our mental health system needs improvements. It is crucial and not only as it relates to these tragedies. It it crucial in so many ways.

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Response to FedUpWithIt All (Reply #52)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:49 AM

59. What access they had and how it might be funded is irrelevant

Until we get back to a point where we recognize again that even if somebody isn't a criminal, they might be too fucked up to be left to their own devices in society.

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Response to FedUpWithIt All (Reply #52)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:37 PM

93. +1 nt

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Response to tawadi (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:03 AM

29. Agreed.

People of all ages fall through the cracks. There isn't much in the way of awareness in terms of signs/symptoms, or anything really. It's a damn shame. So many people's lives could be saved, so many could have their suffering (and that of their family) alleviated.

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Response to HappyMe (Reply #29)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:07 AM

32. More may come out about the shooter's childhood

When it does, I hope people will learn from it.

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Response to tawadi (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:08 AM

34. Another very strong argument for nationalizing healthcare.

Behavioral healthcare is nowhere near as profitable as medical/surgical healthcare. Need I say more...?

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Response to Lizzie Poppet (Reply #34)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:10 AM

36. It will probably never happen in this country

The 1% will make sure of that.

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Response to tawadi (Reply #36)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:14 AM

39. I expect the nation to fragment long before something like nationalized healthcare happens.

I give the Unites States, as currently constitutes, no more than twenty years before it breaks up into smaller regional polities, Soviet-Union-Style. And frankly, the sooner the better...

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Response to tawadi (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:14 AM

38. a problem with mental illness is that there is no physical manifestation

behavior is on a continuum from very normal to somewhat odd to pretty damn nutso

coughing up blood produces a trip to the doctor

feeling angry
sometimes it is justified
i feel angy at michigan for passing anti union laws--am i planning to go there and shoot them??
no

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Response to dembotoz (Reply #38)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:16 AM

41. Don't you think people saw the warning signs?

If the divorce judge ordered parenting classes something was going on.

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Response to tawadi (Reply #41)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:25 AM

46. Maybe they saw

and chose to ignore. I'm sure there is some 'what will the neighbors think' attitude going on.

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Response to tawadi (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:35 AM

48. Until you can lock someone up and force treatment it is a moot point

My family could afford caring for a severely disturbed relative, but he refused all care and obtained restraining orders against us with the help of some fucked up lawyers I believe to be linked to Scientology.

Mental insistutions need to be reestablished and filled.

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Response to Sen. Walter Sobchak (Reply #48)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:37 PM

115. And he's clearly synonymous with the entire spread of mental illnesses, right? Oy. (nt)

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Response to Posteritatis (Reply #115)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 07:24 PM

119. He was synonymous with those who are completely unhinged and violent

I don't think those who suffer depression from a lack of sunlight in the winter are shooting up schools or pushing people in front of trains.

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Response to tawadi (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:44 AM

54. So tax the gunpowder and use the revenue for emntal health services

 

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Response to tawadi (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:46 AM

56. Yeah? So?

We need both. This is not an either/or situation.

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Response to tawadi (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:56 AM

61. We could stop locking up perfectly peaceful marijuana and other drug users and use those funds

Instead, we should be moving mentally ill people who are a danger to society to institutional care.

A friend who is a social worker with a degree in psychology has been assaulted and hurt by "clients" of the state supported clinic where he works.

These are cases of assault and battery, but they are not arrested, they are not prosecuted and they are not incarcerated.

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Response to tawadi (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:57 AM

62. Sometimes I can't tell if this DU or Free Republic

Another way to deflect the topic of gun control

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Response to rbrnmw (Reply #62)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:02 PM

63. It isn't a deflection, it is a separate issue

Plenty of violent nutjobs who should have been institutionalized kill without a gun.

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Response to rbrnmw (Reply #62)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:24 PM

66. Sometimes issues are tied together.

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Response to tawadi (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:18 PM

64. Mental Hospital

When i was 30 years old their was 6 Mental Hospital 45 to
100 miles from my city. I'm 60 now and i don't know of any
near my city.

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Response to dave502d2 (Reply #64)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:20 PM

65. Welcome to DU!

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Response to tawadi (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:31 PM

69. I am. n/t

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Response to tawadi (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:32 PM

71. $$$$- how much does the NRA raise vs. MH advocates?

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Response to tawadi (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:33 PM

72. I share your face palm, both issues

must be addressed!

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Response to tawadi (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:43 PM

74. has anything come out about the type of medications he was on?

One huge potential issue is the SSRIs they put everyone on--when they go wrong (and they do!!), violence against self and others is a likely outcome.

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Response to tawadi (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:45 PM

75. LMSP kicking...n/t

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Response to tawadi (Original post)


Response to tawadi (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:49 PM

77. Canard, misdirection, dishonest red herring and simply not true.

Health care in general was a priority in the first Obama administration. You know, That president Obama that the NRA likes to tear down all the time.

And your argument works up to the point where people start crying about their privacy rights. It only works up to that point because requiring mental heath status is private information between a physician and a patient.

Personally I do think it should be a factor in gun ownership and purchase. IMO - full background checks and mental health evaluations should required for any gun purchases anywhere from anyone. Yearly, or at least at license renewal time, all requirements for licensing must be reviewed. That includes mental health status.

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Response to tawadi (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:50 PM

78. As the story unfolds I suspect we will hear about this being a case of a young man who,...

....went home for the holidays and was considered a "failure" by his parents because he didn't have a good job like them.

We don't pressure our females to become "breadwinners" but all males are expected to not only earn their own way but to earn enough to pay for the house, the wife and the kids and if they don't they are called "losers".

It's okay for someone's daughter to work as a cashier but a son is supposed to be the manager.

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Response to tawadi (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:53 PM

80. I agree that may be the bigger problem here

There is plenty of evidence that we don't identify those suffering in the extreme and don't take care of them properly.

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Response to tawadi (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:53 PM

81. THANK YOU

I've been thinking the same thing.

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Response to tawadi (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:16 PM

87. Nobody talks about increasing funding for mental health services

Nor do they talk about why there's such a belief in this country that guns are required for safety.

Why is that?

If citizens feel like they MUST have guns to protect themselves from a government out of control, where are they getting that belief? Who is telling them that there's a secret plot to take everyone's guns away from them and then remove all of their rights and freedoms? Isn't this a mental health concern, that so many would believe such a thing?

The fact is, if the government really wanted to take over, all the guns and weapons in the world would do little to stop them. We have drones that can fly overhead, unmanned, and target any area that's been programmed, not to mention nuclear weapons. Assault weapons and guns would do zero to stop it, neither would access to large magazines, or having hundreds of weapons.

Nobody talks about increasing funding for police and law enforcement, either. If our society is so dangerous that everyone really must carry a gun like they did in the old west, why do we have police? If police can't protect us, and we must protect ourselves, why do we even have police? Perhaps better paid, better trained, and more feet on the ground could help, but that would mean we'd need to spend more money.

This country is one where having a gun is a right, but having access to medical care isn't. No sane person could possibly agree that this is the way it should be. Better access to mental health care could go a long way to reducing gun violence, as could more law enforcement on the streets, and a cessation of the notion that our big, bad government is out to take everyone's guns away from them so citizens have no protection when government swoops down and takes over.

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Response to AndyA (Reply #87)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:41 PM

94. +1 nt

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Response to tawadi (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:22 PM

88. well said

yes

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Response to tawadi (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:43 PM

96. On the contrary:

 

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021981503

**************

Props to my wife for making the oh-so-sensible suggestion.

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Response to tawadi (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:07 PM

98. Obviously, there is no silver bullet in this matter.

We have several problems besides the lack of funding. First, how do we get these people to realize that they are mentally ill, and what do we do if they are and don't believe they are? Secondly, how would we get them to voluntarily seek help, and if they refuse help what do we do then? Thirdly, if they agree to seek help, will it even work? There are people who are beyond help, what do we do about them?

Back to the control of guns. How is that smart gun technology coming along? I believe having some sort of biometric device -- not necessarily RFID chips because that's too invasive -- like fingerprint recognition on all guns would be a step in the right direction. I know it's not foolproof because the registered gun owner could have an episode and go crazy, but I think this should be a part of comprehensive gun control plan. We should reinstate, and strengthen, the federal assault weapons ban. The prior ban had some loopholes which allowed many guns, which we would think of as assault weapons or semi-assault weapons, to be exempted from the ban -- we also need to include guns that have large magazines in the ban. Banning these weapons in the U.S. would inevitably lead to an increase of guns coming across the boarder, so we would need to strengthen our border security to prevent these weapons from coming into the country illegally. Someone suggested in another thread, that we implement a cash-for-guns program at the federal level in order to get these guns off the street. I'm not sure how successful this would be, or how much we would pay for these guns, but I think it could help at some level.

Summary of gun control ideas

- Reinstate and strengthen the federal assault weapons ban by eliminating loopholes which allow some truly automatic and semi-automatic weapons from being exempted from the ban and broaden what is classified as an assault weapon.

- Mandate that all guns in the United States have "Smart Gun" technology such as biometric fingerprint recognition so that only the registered gun owner can use the gun.

- Limit the size of the gun's magazine.

- Possibly have a cash-for-guns program in order to get as many assault/semi-assault weapons off of the streets.

- Eliminate the loophole which allows "Private sellers" to sell guns without running background checks.

- Secure the nation's borders to prevent weapons from entering the country illegally.

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Response to tawadi (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:19 PM

102. I agree

its definitely integral to solving the problem. Its not the only thing, but its extremely important and should be focused upon by the administration.

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Response to tawadi (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:23 PM

104. Well,

 

I've heard every diagnosis on this kid and not one of them has come from a doctor. The kid was twenty years old and he never saw a doctor. Now we know his mom kept guns because she thought something terrible was going to happen and she taught her sons how to shoot. And one of her relatives live in North Carolina. Ok, I still think she had rightwing ideas. That is too much fire power for someone that isn't a nut. He was 20 years old and home schooled too. Now where did he get his lack of feelings for life? He just walks into a school and shoots 5-10 year olds.

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