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Sat Dec 15, 2012, 07:42 AM

Mentally ill people..

having access to guns is a huge problem. We will lose this fight if we paint all gun owners with the same brush. By all accounts the weapons used in the latest shooting, were obtained legally. We really need to look at mental illness in this country. I have a cousin who was diagnosed as being a paranoid schizophrenic, and he has committed petty crimes when he's off his meds... like breaking windows and such. He has been arrested numerous times and tossed in jail instead of being treated in a psych ward. While in jail he trashed his cell and was held in "the hole" for ten days.

My aunt couldn't visit him and had no idea how he was doing. I contacted a mental health advocate, he contacted TPTB at the jail and told them how harmful it was to hold someone with my cousins mental problems in solitary confinement for ten days. He set up a meeting and had my cousin transferred to the psych ward after an evaluation. My aunt has tried to have him committed, but because he's an adult and hasn't harmed anyone yet, she has failed. If you look at the last few mass shootings all of the assailants had a history of mental illness. Along with gun control we need to address mental illness in America.

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Arrow 124 replies Author Time Post
Reply Mentally ill people.. (Original post)
rainlillie Dec 2012 OP
kentuck Dec 2012 #1
Honeycombe8 Dec 2012 #50
marshall Dec 2012 #67
Honeycombe8 Dec 2012 #71
marshall Dec 2012 #80
Honeycombe8 Dec 2012 #120
marshall Dec 2012 #119
Honeycombe8 Dec 2012 #121
hfojvt Dec 2012 #91
ck4829 Dec 2012 #2
Fumesucker Dec 2012 #3
cantbeserious Dec 2012 #5
beac Dec 2012 #43
Helen Reddy Dec 2012 #69
ck4829 Dec 2012 #6
raccoon Dec 2012 #40
October Dec 2012 #77
snappyturtle Dec 2012 #4
KarenS Dec 2012 #7
valerief Dec 2012 #8
slackmaster Dec 2012 #11
John2 Dec 2012 #18
slackmaster Dec 2012 #19
John2 Dec 2012 #45
slackmaster Dec 2012 #51
John2 Dec 2012 #72
slackmaster Dec 2012 #74
John2 Dec 2012 #83
slackmaster Dec 2012 #94
liberalmike27 Dec 2012 #75
mbperrin Dec 2012 #100
llmart Dec 2012 #65
slackmaster Dec 2012 #66
In_The_Wind Dec 2012 #12
John2 Dec 2012 #23
In_The_Wind Dec 2012 #28
John2 Dec 2012 #62
mbperrin Dec 2012 #99
valerief Dec 2012 #111
mbperrin Dec 2012 #112
valerief Dec 2012 #113
mbperrin Dec 2012 #122
kitt6 Dec 2012 #9
Sienna86 Dec 2012 #10
juajen Dec 2012 #13
no_hypocrisy Dec 2012 #14
Sienna86 Dec 2012 #15
no_hypocrisy Dec 2012 #17
bettyellen Dec 2012 #49
no_hypocrisy Dec 2012 #59
bettyellen Dec 2012 #81
no_hypocrisy Dec 2012 #82
bettyellen Dec 2012 #84
geckosfeet Dec 2012 #16
brush Dec 2012 #20
northoftheborder Dec 2012 #78
renate Dec 2012 #115
friendly_iconoclast Dec 2012 #116
brush Dec 2012 #117
BainsBane Dec 2012 #21
slackmaster Dec 2012 #22
Pholus Dec 2012 #27
slackmaster Dec 2012 #33
Pholus Dec 2012 #87
slackmaster Dec 2012 #95
llmart Dec 2012 #104
John2 Dec 2012 #31
slackmaster Dec 2012 #34
BainsBane Dec 2012 #38
slackmaster Dec 2012 #42
BainsBane Dec 2012 #53
Helen Reddy Dec 2012 #76
BainsBane Dec 2012 #106
Kei7777 Dec 2012 #32
BainsBane Dec 2012 #47
Helen Reddy Dec 2012 #73
Jamastiene Dec 2012 #85
Maineman Dec 2012 #24
jeff47 Dec 2012 #107
susanr516 Dec 2012 #25
99Forever Dec 2012 #26
slackmaster Dec 2012 #29
99Forever Dec 2012 #36
slackmaster Dec 2012 #37
99Forever Dec 2012 #52
slackmaster Dec 2012 #55
99Forever Dec 2012 #58
slackmaster Dec 2012 #60
99Forever Dec 2012 #68
slackmaster Dec 2012 #70
99Forever Dec 2012 #79
slackmaster Dec 2012 #97
kwassa Dec 2012 #101
slackmaster Dec 2012 #102
jeff47 Dec 2012 #108
kwassa Dec 2012 #109
jeff47 Dec 2012 #118
SemperEadem Dec 2012 #30
silhouete2 Dec 2012 #35
Are_grits_groceries Dec 2012 #39
slackmaster Dec 2012 #44
jwirr Dec 2012 #41
slackmaster Dec 2012 #46
jwirr Dec 2012 #48
slackmaster Dec 2012 #54
jwirr Dec 2012 #61
slackmaster Dec 2012 #63
bettyellen Dec 2012 #56
slackmaster Dec 2012 #57
bettyellen Dec 2012 #88
slackmaster Dec 2012 #96
bettyellen Dec 2012 #98
Jamastiene Dec 2012 #93
jwirr Dec 2012 #105
mecherosegarden Dec 2012 #64
Dustlawyer Dec 2012 #86
Jamastiene Dec 2012 #89
rainlillie Dec 2012 #114
dembotoz Dec 2012 #90
cbdo2007 Dec 2012 #92
Zoeisright Dec 2012 #103
dionysus Dec 2012 #110
Fire Walk With Me Dec 2012 #123
Warren DeMontague Dec 2012 #124

Response to rainlillie (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 07:51 AM

1. I think you have touched on the heart of the problem.

We need to devote time and resources to identifying and helping those with mental illness. It does our country no good to continue to ignore that it is a problem.

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Response to kentuck (Reply #1)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:46 AM

50. The woman who bought the guns in this incident was not mentally ill.

Altho I'm in favor of helping the mentally ill. But that's not gonna happen in this recessionary environment, and with spending cuts about to be implemented federally, and having already been implemented by many states.

One thing that is helpful is that with the ACA, the Mom in this incident would have been able to pay to put her son on her insurance, even though he was an adult, which would have paid for mental health treatment.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #50)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:06 AM

67. How do you know she was not mentally ill?

I have heard conflicting accounts about her--that she was a teacher, that she was a teacher's aide, that she was a substitute teacher, that she had no connection whatsover to the school. I haven't heard any accounts of the state of her mental health.

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Response to marshall (Reply #67)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:16 AM

71. Exactly. There has been no indication she had mental illness. nt

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #71)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:30 AM

80. And thus none that she did not

My point is we cannot at present say she did or did not have a mental illness.

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Response to marshall (Reply #80)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 10:34 PM

120. Presumption of innocence. I presume you are sane, since there is no evidence you are not.

Last edited Sun Dec 16, 2012, 11:11 PM - Edit history (1)

But there is some evidence she wasn't wacko. She had parlor games with the other neighborhood ladies, who knew her quite well. She was a refined lady who loved parlor games, and was an avid landscaper of her large yard. A neighbor was quoted as saying she was a very friendly, liked, normal person. The neighbor was surprised to learn she owned guns, since that's unusual for that area.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #71)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 09:28 PM

119. Reports are now looking like the mother had her own inner demons

Last edited Mon Dec 17, 2012, 12:57 AM - Edit history (1)

A so called prepper who stock piled weapons for some sort of apocalypse.

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Response to marshall (Reply #119)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 11:13 PM

121. I'll look for those. So far I've read accounts of her by friends in the neighborhood...

and store clerks who knew her. They report she was refined, like parlor games (she held parlor games for the neighborhood ladies regularly in her home), liked landscaping her large yard, and was friendly and well liked. She seemed normal, by all accounts.

That's what I've read so far. Those were quotes by a neighborhood store owner or clerk, and a couple of neighbors who knew her well.

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Response to kentuck (Reply #1)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:43 AM

91. I worry about statements like "signs of mental illness"

Because in America we have at least two other problems. First, is a desire for very simple solutions. Second, is groups of people willing to scam others for their own profit.

An average life is full of troubles, ups and downs and incidents.

So I get into a fight in the second grade or something, completely lose my temper in some situation or other. Well, bang, there I am now in compulsory mental illness therapy, more than likely to involve "meds" of some kind. The whole mental illness therapy system is likely to be very profitable for some. Those who make upper middle class incomes from dispensing this therapy are going to be relentless promotors of it in all cases. By gosh, everybody needs SOME therapy (at $100 an hour for me (but that's just a coincidence I am sure)).

And meds? Well, pushing those is likely to be very profitable. Whether they are good for the patient or not or good for society, they will be promoted and pushed because they are profitable. Everybody needs a thneed, after all. I'd be kinda surprised if this kid wasn't already taking some "meds".

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Response to rainlillie (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 07:59 AM

2. Medication, therapy, counseling, etc. should be free and confidential for all

The price and stigma are probably the two biggest barriers to treating this IMHO.

Now it may not have stopped Adam Lanza, but it would have stopped others.

And if it did stop Adam Lanza, then it wouldn't have just stopped a massacre, but may have allowed Adam to use his high intelligence, once unimpeded, to focus on something that was positive instead.

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Response to rainlillie (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 08:06 AM

3. A good mental health care system is going to be extremely expensive

There is serious talk of cutting social programs like Medicare and Social Security, more money is not going to be spent on mental health care.

What we will do instead is increase funding for cops and prisons, that's the only mental health care white people like me are willing to pay for.


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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #3)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 08:09 AM

5. Corporate Profits Come Easier When Based On Fear Than Compassion And Assistance

eom

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Response to cantbeserious (Reply #5)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:41 AM

43. And treatment requires trained professionals and expensive medications.

Incarceration only needs bars and guards.

That's why we have a Prison Industrial Complex instead of universal healthcare.

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Response to beac (Reply #43)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:13 AM

69. Bingo! n/t

 

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #3)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 08:11 AM

6. Everybody suffers with that one

From law enforcement, the victims, to the potential shooters themselves. However, this will probably be the only proposed solution or nothing at all.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #3)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:36 AM

40. Sadly, you are right. nt

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #3)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:22 AM

77. You're right.

The most common response I've heard to this sad and tragic event was that we "needed more armed security guards in our schools."

How does one even start a dialogue about treating mental illness with people who have such a "black and white" view of the world. We've got to try, of course, but we have a long road ahead of us as a nation.

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Response to rainlillie (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 08:06 AM

4. Yes, yes, yes! nt

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Response to rainlillie (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 08:11 AM

7. Yes, indeed.

Part of the problem is that once person is 'of age' unless they go completely out of control a parent has no legal authority over them ~ they can refuse meds and therapy, legally.
Some of these mental illnesses do not manifest themselves until a person is in their late teens and early twenties.

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Response to rainlillie (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 08:28 AM

8. I can't understand why Lanza's mother would keep all those guns in the house when

she had a son with a mental problem living with her.

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Response to valerief (Reply #8)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 08:38 AM

11. I'm going to take a wild leap here and speculate that she thought she had secured them adequately

 

A lot of parents underestimate both the ability of their children to solve technical problems, and their capacity to be deceitful.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #11)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:05 AM

18. Just what

 

did she think, she was going to do with two hand guns,one semi-automatic rifle and hundreds of rounds of ammunition? Her son also wore a bullet proof vest. She also had a job of teaching 5-10 year old kids. What kinda of woman would go around armed like fort knox? She must have had a violent view of things her self. Who did she plan to use those weapons on. I would like to know just what she expected to do with those weapons. I don't accept her mindset. And how do we know her son didn't get his views of the world from her, even if he was mentally disturbed? It seems to me, that he had no sense about preserving life. If his mother espoused her views of resorting to violence, then why not her son? It is just the idea, she had the intent of using those weapons on someoneelse because of her paranoia about other people.

The bottomline is I'm a veteran, and never needed to purchase a weapon in my life, because I have not needed one in this country. The less, you resort to guns, the less likely you are to get killed. When people have the ability to bring a gun into the situation, then the likely hood of losing your life heightens. And I have been in violent situations before, but no gun was present. Once you bring guns into the situation, then the other person is likely to get a gun. What gun lobbyists are advocating is an arms race.

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Response to John2 (Reply #18)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:07 AM

19. There is no information here that indicates that she was going around armed, or that the vest...

 

...even belonged to her.

Maybe she was into target shooting. It doesn't really matter; she's a victim. Why blame her?

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #19)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:42 AM

45. Maybe you heard

 

different, because the initial information says the guns did belong to her. So you think they belonged to her twenty year old son that lived with her. If I was doing the investigation, I would check out her background and why she thought the need to be armed like Fort Knox.

As far as I'm concerned, she was the care taker of her mentally disturbed son and he was under her roof period. There is no indication that her 20 year old son had a job or any income. If I was his father, he wouldn't have access to any guns. I'm retired military and have never needed a gun. And I don't need to be into target shooting to have access to a gun when i can go to any gun club and do it. I'm not into it though because that is not my fetish. When I did fire a gun in the military, it was for the purpose of killing someone. A gun is not a toy. You don't need a gun, unless yoiu plan on killing someone. So why don't you proceed to rebut me, because I think that I can rebut your answers. O would like to hear more of your rationale for her needing all these guns and armed like Fort Knox. Just what was she expecting to happen to her?

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Response to John2 (Reply #45)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:46 AM

51. I'm sorry John2, you seem confused. It's well established that the guns belonged to her.

 

Not the vest. There is no information about where that came from.

...O would like to hear more of your rationale for her needing all these guns and armed like Fort Knox. Just what was she expecting to happen to her?

I don't believe there is any point in trying to figure out why she owned two handguns and one rifle. She had a right to own them. Calling three ordinary firearms "armed like Fort Knox" is just hyperbole.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #51)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:18 AM

72. And now we

 

get some information, she probably even taught her supposedly mentally disturbed son how to shoot? He apparently had some skill if you know any thing about weapons. If I was an investigator, this information would not be hyperbole. It is tying the loose knots. And I would further the investigation to find out if he had any history of being mentally disturbed through any physicians or doctors as his brother claims. After all, he did say the kid hadn't seen his brother in two years.

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Response to John2 (Reply #72)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:21 AM

74. I just heard that too. I've taught many people to shoot, but I know a few people who I would not...

 

...trust with a weapon even under my direct supervision.

Sometimes parents are unable to comprehend their childrens' problems.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #74)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:36 AM

83. Now you,

 

are becoming more reasonable. I'm not stating facts but leaving no stone unturned as the information changes and more come in. It is called putting together a profile of the murderer. You check out all his associations even his mother.

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Response to John2 (Reply #83)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:48 AM

94. Thanks for the kind word John2. I regard myself as a "white hat" gun owner.

 

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #51)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:21 AM

75. Seeing as how she was

Killed and mauled beyond recognition, perhaps she had them to defend herself against the kid.

Still not sure what you expect to happen? Is it a house to house search, then confiscation of all guns? Will we compensate for the value to homes? That's going to be a bundle. Perhaps put all people who own them through a psych test.

And any suggestion, any whiff of this will end up getting almost any democrat, in any state, unelected. So it won't happen anyway. To me, there is no real solution. Random shootings will never move republicans to gun control, so we're sadly stuck in this place, with no real solution.

Personally I think many of these shootings, even the mental health aspect, can be boiled down to economics, too much going to the rich, as to not be able to handle free care or some kind of care for mentally problematic people in society. There should be no financial bars to treatment for these people.

How can we spend 700 Billion on defense, yet we've got this kind of thing happening within our own, flawed society, over, and over, almost weekly?

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Response to John2 (Reply #18)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:27 AM

100. Thank you. Very well said. My dad and granddad were both veterans as well,

and neither owned any guns nor thought that they needed to.

People are what they do. If they buy guns and bullet resistant clothing and thousands of rounds of ammunition and spend hours and hours shooting, that is what they become - people who shoot.

Why some of that energy can't be put into volunteering for Christmas in April, repairing houses for the elderly who own but cannot afford major repairs to their houses, which is what my dad and granddad did, or some other useful activity, I don't know.

That's why I don't understand why so many video games are shooter games, either. I never allowed them in the house, and I don't believe my kids missed a thing by it.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #11)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:02 AM

65. He wasn't a child.

And maybe she was just stupid. But they don't check for "stupid" when someone wants to buy a guy.

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Response to llmart (Reply #65)


Response to valerief (Reply #8)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 08:42 AM

12. Excellent point.

My guess is that she didn't even have a gun safe.

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Response to In_The_Wind (Reply #12)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:11 AM

23. So you

 

think, she had any idea her own son would take her life? I wouldn't even trust her with all the guns she had myself for all I know about her political leanings. She could have been a rightwing extremist, which I consider them all dangerous, the way they see others. That is the real problem. Why did she think that she needed to be armed like Fort Knox? It probably backfired on her.

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Response to John2 (Reply #23)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:20 AM

28. I think ~ she didn't think

through the enormous responsibility that goes with owning a gun.

I don't have children in my home nor do I have visitors but I do keep my gun safe and secure.
I never want harm to befall anyone due to my negligence.

I can't imagine any sane reason why she thought she needed all that fire power.

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Response to In_The_Wind (Reply #28)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:57 AM

62. Now you,

 

are the rationale one. Like I said, I'm ex-military. That is a lot of fire power for three ordinary guns and one of them was a semi-automatic rifle I heard. I'm going to assume that he got the bullet proof vest from her also. If I'm an investigator, that is sufficient evidence, to check out her background and get a profile. I would check out her assiociations to groups like the NRA and what political associations she had. I would not just narrow the investigation to her son and his mental disturbance. What made him decide to take innocent life? Did he get these leanings from his mom? For all we know, she could have been a rightwing whacko.

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Response to valerief (Reply #8)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:22 AM

99. According to some accounts, she took him to the firing range quite regularly where they both

practiced shooting. A neighbor said that she showed him her latest purchase - the rifle and was very proud of it.

So apparently she not only bought them but encouraged him to use them.

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Response to mbperrin (Reply #99)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 06:41 PM

111. I don't understand why these people don't leave such weapons AT THE FIRING RANGE.

If such weapons were permanently secured at the spot where they do their sport shooting, some unstable kid couldn't use one to murder people.

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Response to valerief (Reply #111)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:30 PM

112. Because for too many, these guns are parts of their identity, their very bodies.

They're really not kidding about the cold dead hand thing.

It's deathporn and apparently quite addictive.

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Response to mbperrin (Reply #112)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 12:17 AM

113. Why can't they just have a simple foot fetish instead of a gun fetish if they need a damn fetish?

Sickening.

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Response to valerief (Reply #113)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:20 AM

122. Absolutely!

Or a nice elbow fetish. I've heard some people talk about it, but of course, I don't know anything about it, I just kind of heard some things, you know, I mean, I'm not some kind of kink, not at all.

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Response to rainlillie (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 08:35 AM

9. Cut out medicaid or medicare and see what happens.

 

At least the medical field can keep them calm. Replace republicans dammit!

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Response to rainlillie (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 08:36 AM

10. Imho, this issue has three legs

Gun control, access to mental health care, and a system for helping those who are not compliant with therapy/meds (and the latter would include keeping everyone else safe.)

For your cousin, has your Aunt reached out to NAMI? They are a fantastic organization.

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Response to rainlillie (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 08:45 AM

13. This country has regressed when it comes to mental health.

We seemed to have enough money in the past to take care of the mentally ill, now, they walk among us in desperate circumstances when they should be receiving treatment. A great percentage are drug addicted and homeless, and, many are veterans. It really is a disgrace.

We have soldiers coming home from military service in dire need of help for their mental state as well as physical conditions, with very little money, comparatively speaking, forthcoming from their government. Military aftercare benefits are a joke; hence organizations begging for help from an already impoverished country, begging us over the airwaves to commit to a monthly amount to help our poor veterans. So, they suck the money out of the treasury for their wars, and then beg us to contribute to their mental and physical health, when what was promised them is negated by "we just don't have the money." Still, Defense is by far this country's greatest expense. Waste in military spending is rampant, but they want to do away with help for the poor and hungry among us. I hope this cash cow is broken somehow. I believe I am dreaming.

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Response to rainlillie (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 08:53 AM

14. It's almost like a third rail issue.

I knew a Vietnam Vet who was obsessed with weapons, rifles in particular. He was mentally ill and an alcoholic. Yet he had a yellow card, allowing him to purchase weapons.

He had threatened his family with his guns when they denied him his demands. Once or twice it was discussed that someone should take away his guns, especially as he had no money to buy replacements. It was argued that gesture would make no difference. First, he had learned to steal from them and sell what he stole. Second, he had learned how to find gun sellers outside the system and he could likely get new weapons within 24 hours.

My point: unless a mentally ill person is confined to where he cannot get access to weapons at all, he will find a way to get those weapons.

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Response to no_hypocrisy (Reply #14)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:00 AM

15. Another good point you bring up

is that someone with a mental health issue may choose to self-medicate with drugs or alcohol. I'm not saying this veteran did this, but it occurs. When there exists a stigma associated with mental health issues, it is easier and more socially-acceptable for some to buy a fifth of vodka.

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Response to Sienna86 (Reply #15)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:03 AM

17. That exactly was the case in my example.

You couldn't talk to him. His family was in denial about his mental health issues and became enablers. When at last they kicked him out of their home, he went to live in a shed on their property -- in the winter. When most people would have called Social Services, they allowed him to live there, even getting a heater with an extension cord.

Families who are afraid or in denial are a big part of the problem. The descent is never a surprise.

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Response to no_hypocrisy (Reply #17)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:46 AM

49. What would social services do for him? Temp housing in a shelter?

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #49)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:55 AM

59. Ideally lifelong commitment to a facility like when a criminal is adjudicated

as mentally unfit to stand trial.

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Response to no_hypocrisy (Reply #59)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:35 AM

81. I don't think they commit anyone "life long" until after a heinous criminal act- the usual is to

take them in for only 20-30 days - whatever insurance will pay, then dump them. But from what I understand, the person needs to be deemed an immediate danger to themselves or another.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #81)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:35 AM

82. And that's the problem.

There are multiple "ticking time bombs" out there with access to weapons.

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Response to no_hypocrisy (Reply #82)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:36 AM

84. parents have no options except to kick them out. it's sick.

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Response to rainlillie (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:01 AM

16. From what I have heard - the mother owned the guns. Apparently they were easilly accessible.

Someone picked them up, loaded them, shot the owner, then walked away with them.

A gun owner that makes that series of events possible and allows it to happen is irresponsible and criminal. And sometimes dead.

We need to address a number of things related to gun control IMO:
1. gun ownership, safety and personal responsibility
2. hardware safety and lockout regulation - ie: require some or all of gun locks, trigger locks, safes for gun storage
3. mental illness and health care for mental illness
4. background checks and psychological profiles for firearm sales
5. federal and local firearm and firearm ownership databases
6. reform ownership/buying regulation - federally enforced waiting periods and "reason for purchase" requirements

Almost any effort at reform and regulation will be opposed by the gun lobby. But we have to start somewhere. I do not see the path that we are on is sustainable. At some point public outrage and opposition will become overwhelming. At that point the gun lobby will lose in a big way.

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Response to rainlillie (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:08 AM

20. Yep! Mentally Ill people and guns — not a good mix

Last edited Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:34 AM - Edit history (1)

Guns and mentally ill people being able to get them is why these shooting keep happening. It happens in other countries too (the Norway shooter, for instance. I think it was Norway.) But it happens so much more often here because we have so many more guns around — all types of automatic and semi-automatic guns, and handguns. Fucking handguns! Hand guns serve no purpose but to shoot people with. That is what they are designed for. And don't give me the target shooting crap. Target shooting is to make one more proficient at hitting targets, many shaped like human torsos. Duh!

We need to outlaw handguns and automatic weapons for everyone but the police and the military. Shotguns and sporting rifles, ok, but let's get rid of all these killing guns and live like the rest of the civilized world. There were 23 gun deaths in the UK last year because casual gun ownership is not allowed there. There were 31,000 in the US. Let's get a grip. Fuck the NRA. And as far as the 2nd Amendment goes and the "well regulated militia" it describes, we have that in the military, the National Guard and the police — local and state — for God's sake! We don't need every Tom, Dick and Crazy being able to get automatic weapons and handguns — killing guns. The founding fathers were cognizant of and fearful of war with Britain, also of the need for protection from wild animals on the frontier and from Native Americans, who they were stealing land from (I know, it's unfortunate but true.). They had absolutely no concept of automatic weapons and their rates of fire that number in the 100s per minute (Uzis can fire at up to 900 ROUNDS PER MINUTE)

Long guns at that time required required minutes to load. The following is a quote from "Or Rocks, Trees, Rifles, and Militia" by Christopher Geist.

"Then there is the romantic mythology surrounding the American militia, those intrepid citizen-soldiers whose battlefield heroics faced down the finest army in the world. Problem is, as Washington himself knew from the beginning of the conflict, militia was undependable, poorly trained, and generally ineffective on the field of battle. They came armed with civilian weapons ranging from fine rifles to cheap trade muskets to fowling pieces—known today as shotguns. Within each of these categories of arms, there were differences among individual weapons. A unit equipped with almost as many different kinds of arms as soldiers could not load and rapidly fire volleys in unison."

So even George Washington was wary of militia. The 2nd Amendment needs to be struck or revised for our national sanity because we've certainly gone off the deep end with this whole gun worshiping thing. Little kids are getting slaughtered now. It's time.

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