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Sat Dec 15, 2012, 07:42 AM

Mentally ill people..

having access to guns is a huge problem. We will lose this fight if we paint all gun owners with the same brush. By all accounts the weapons used in the latest shooting, were obtained legally. We really need to look at mental illness in this country. I have a cousin who was diagnosed as being a paranoid schizophrenic, and he has committed petty crimes when he's off his meds... like breaking windows and such. He has been arrested numerous times and tossed in jail instead of being treated in a psych ward. While in jail he trashed his cell and was held in "the hole" for ten days.

My aunt couldn't visit him and had no idea how he was doing. I contacted a mental health advocate, he contacted TPTB at the jail and told them how harmful it was to hold someone with my cousins mental problems in solitary confinement for ten days. He set up a meeting and had my cousin transferred to the psych ward after an evaluation. My aunt has tried to have him committed, but because he's an adult and hasn't harmed anyone yet, she has failed. If you look at the last few mass shootings all of the assailants had a history of mental illness. Along with gun control we need to address mental illness in America.

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Arrow 124 replies Author Time Post
Reply Mentally ill people.. (Original post)
rainlillie Dec 2012 OP
kentuck Dec 2012 #1
Honeycombe8 Dec 2012 #50
marshall Dec 2012 #67
Honeycombe8 Dec 2012 #71
marshall Dec 2012 #80
Honeycombe8 Dec 2012 #120
marshall Dec 2012 #119
Honeycombe8 Dec 2012 #121
hfojvt Dec 2012 #91
ck4829 Dec 2012 #2
Fumesucker Dec 2012 #3
cantbeserious Dec 2012 #5
beac Dec 2012 #43
Helen Reddy Dec 2012 #69
ck4829 Dec 2012 #6
raccoon Dec 2012 #40
October Dec 2012 #77
snappyturtle Dec 2012 #4
KarenS Dec 2012 #7
valerief Dec 2012 #8
slackmaster Dec 2012 #11
John2 Dec 2012 #18
slackmaster Dec 2012 #19
John2 Dec 2012 #45
slackmaster Dec 2012 #51
John2 Dec 2012 #72
slackmaster Dec 2012 #74
John2 Dec 2012 #83
slackmaster Dec 2012 #94
liberalmike27 Dec 2012 #75
mbperrin Dec 2012 #100
llmart Dec 2012 #65
slackmaster Dec 2012 #66
In_The_Wind Dec 2012 #12
John2 Dec 2012 #23
In_The_Wind Dec 2012 #28
John2 Dec 2012 #62
mbperrin Dec 2012 #99
valerief Dec 2012 #111
mbperrin Dec 2012 #112
valerief Dec 2012 #113
mbperrin Dec 2012 #122
kitt6 Dec 2012 #9
Sienna86 Dec 2012 #10
juajen Dec 2012 #13
no_hypocrisy Dec 2012 #14
Sienna86 Dec 2012 #15
no_hypocrisy Dec 2012 #17
bettyellen Dec 2012 #49
no_hypocrisy Dec 2012 #59
bettyellen Dec 2012 #81
no_hypocrisy Dec 2012 #82
bettyellen Dec 2012 #84
geckosfeet Dec 2012 #16
brush Dec 2012 #20
northoftheborder Dec 2012 #78
renate Dec 2012 #115
friendly_iconoclast Dec 2012 #116
brush Dec 2012 #117
BainsBane Dec 2012 #21
slackmaster Dec 2012 #22
Pholus Dec 2012 #27
slackmaster Dec 2012 #33
Pholus Dec 2012 #87
slackmaster Dec 2012 #95
llmart Dec 2012 #104
John2 Dec 2012 #31
slackmaster Dec 2012 #34
BainsBane Dec 2012 #38
slackmaster Dec 2012 #42
BainsBane Dec 2012 #53
Helen Reddy Dec 2012 #76
BainsBane Dec 2012 #106
Kei7777 Dec 2012 #32
BainsBane Dec 2012 #47
Helen Reddy Dec 2012 #73
Jamastiene Dec 2012 #85
Maineman Dec 2012 #24
jeff47 Dec 2012 #107
susanr516 Dec 2012 #25
99Forever Dec 2012 #26
slackmaster Dec 2012 #29
99Forever Dec 2012 #36
slackmaster Dec 2012 #37
99Forever Dec 2012 #52
slackmaster Dec 2012 #55
99Forever Dec 2012 #58
slackmaster Dec 2012 #60
99Forever Dec 2012 #68
slackmaster Dec 2012 #70
99Forever Dec 2012 #79
slackmaster Dec 2012 #97
kwassa Dec 2012 #101
slackmaster Dec 2012 #102
jeff47 Dec 2012 #108
kwassa Dec 2012 #109
jeff47 Dec 2012 #118
SemperEadem Dec 2012 #30
silhouete2 Dec 2012 #35
Are_grits_groceries Dec 2012 #39
slackmaster Dec 2012 #44
jwirr Dec 2012 #41
slackmaster Dec 2012 #46
jwirr Dec 2012 #48
slackmaster Dec 2012 #54
jwirr Dec 2012 #61
slackmaster Dec 2012 #63
bettyellen Dec 2012 #56
slackmaster Dec 2012 #57
bettyellen Dec 2012 #88
slackmaster Dec 2012 #96
bettyellen Dec 2012 #98
Jamastiene Dec 2012 #93
jwirr Dec 2012 #105
mecherosegarden Dec 2012 #64
Dustlawyer Dec 2012 #86
Jamastiene Dec 2012 #89
rainlillie Dec 2012 #114
dembotoz Dec 2012 #90
cbdo2007 Dec 2012 #92
Zoeisright Dec 2012 #103
dionysus Dec 2012 #110
Fire Walk With Me Dec 2012 #123
Warren DeMontague Dec 2012 #124

Response to rainlillie (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 07:51 AM

1. I think you have touched on the heart of the problem.

We need to devote time and resources to identifying and helping those with mental illness. It does our country no good to continue to ignore that it is a problem.

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Response to kentuck (Reply #1)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:46 AM

50. The woman who bought the guns in this incident was not mentally ill.

Altho I'm in favor of helping the mentally ill. But that's not gonna happen in this recessionary environment, and with spending cuts about to be implemented federally, and having already been implemented by many states.

One thing that is helpful is that with the ACA, the Mom in this incident would have been able to pay to put her son on her insurance, even though he was an adult, which would have paid for mental health treatment.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #50)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:06 AM

67. How do you know she was not mentally ill?

I have heard conflicting accounts about her--that she was a teacher, that she was a teacher's aide, that she was a substitute teacher, that she had no connection whatsover to the school. I haven't heard any accounts of the state of her mental health.

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Response to marshall (Reply #67)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:16 AM

71. Exactly. There has been no indication she had mental illness. nt

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #71)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:30 AM

80. And thus none that she did not

My point is we cannot at present say she did or did not have a mental illness.

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Response to marshall (Reply #80)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 10:34 PM

120. Presumption of innocence. I presume you are sane, since there is no evidence you are not.

Last edited Sun Dec 16, 2012, 11:11 PM - Edit history (1)

But there is some evidence she wasn't wacko. She had parlor games with the other neighborhood ladies, who knew her quite well. She was a refined lady who loved parlor games, and was an avid landscaper of her large yard. A neighbor was quoted as saying she was a very friendly, liked, normal person. The neighbor was surprised to learn she owned guns, since that's unusual for that area.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #71)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 09:28 PM

119. Reports are now looking like the mother had her own inner demons

Last edited Mon Dec 17, 2012, 12:57 AM - Edit history (1)

A so called prepper who stock piled weapons for some sort of apocalypse.

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Response to marshall (Reply #119)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 11:13 PM

121. I'll look for those. So far I've read accounts of her by friends in the neighborhood...

and store clerks who knew her. They report she was refined, like parlor games (she held parlor games for the neighborhood ladies regularly in her home), liked landscaping her large yard, and was friendly and well liked. She seemed normal, by all accounts.

That's what I've read so far. Those were quotes by a neighborhood store owner or clerk, and a couple of neighbors who knew her well.

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Response to kentuck (Reply #1)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:43 AM

91. I worry about statements like "signs of mental illness"

Because in America we have at least two other problems. First, is a desire for very simple solutions. Second, is groups of people willing to scam others for their own profit.

An average life is full of troubles, ups and downs and incidents.

So I get into a fight in the second grade or something, completely lose my temper in some situation or other. Well, bang, there I am now in compulsory mental illness therapy, more than likely to involve "meds" of some kind. The whole mental illness therapy system is likely to be very profitable for some. Those who make upper middle class incomes from dispensing this therapy are going to be relentless promotors of it in all cases. By gosh, everybody needs SOME therapy (at $100 an hour for me (but that's just a coincidence I am sure)).

And meds? Well, pushing those is likely to be very profitable. Whether they are good for the patient or not or good for society, they will be promoted and pushed because they are profitable. Everybody needs a thneed, after all. I'd be kinda surprised if this kid wasn't already taking some "meds".

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Response to rainlillie (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 07:59 AM

2. Medication, therapy, counseling, etc. should be free and confidential for all

The price and stigma are probably the two biggest barriers to treating this IMHO.

Now it may not have stopped Adam Lanza, but it would have stopped others.

And if it did stop Adam Lanza, then it wouldn't have just stopped a massacre, but may have allowed Adam to use his high intelligence, once unimpeded, to focus on something that was positive instead.

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Response to rainlillie (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 08:06 AM

3. A good mental health care system is going to be extremely expensive

There is serious talk of cutting social programs like Medicare and Social Security, more money is not going to be spent on mental health care.

What we will do instead is increase funding for cops and prisons, that's the only mental health care white people like me are willing to pay for.


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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #3)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 08:09 AM

5. Corporate Profits Come Easier When Based On Fear Than Compassion And Assistance

eom

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Response to cantbeserious (Reply #5)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:41 AM

43. And treatment requires trained professionals and expensive medications.

Incarceration only needs bars and guards.

That's why we have a Prison Industrial Complex instead of universal healthcare.

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Response to beac (Reply #43)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:13 AM

69. Bingo! n/t

 

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #3)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 08:11 AM

6. Everybody suffers with that one

From law enforcement, the victims, to the potential shooters themselves. However, this will probably be the only proposed solution or nothing at all.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #3)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:36 AM

40. Sadly, you are right. nt

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #3)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:22 AM

77. You're right.

The most common response I've heard to this sad and tragic event was that we "needed more armed security guards in our schools."

How does one even start a dialogue about treating mental illness with people who have such a "black and white" view of the world. We've got to try, of course, but we have a long road ahead of us as a nation.

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Response to rainlillie (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 08:06 AM

4. Yes, yes, yes! nt

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Response to rainlillie (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 08:11 AM

7. Yes, indeed.

Part of the problem is that once person is 'of age' unless they go completely out of control a parent has no legal authority over them ~ they can refuse meds and therapy, legally.
Some of these mental illnesses do not manifest themselves until a person is in their late teens and early twenties.

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Response to rainlillie (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 08:28 AM

8. I can't understand why Lanza's mother would keep all those guns in the house when

she had a son with a mental problem living with her.

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Response to valerief (Reply #8)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 08:38 AM

11. I'm going to take a wild leap here and speculate that she thought she had secured them adequately

 

A lot of parents underestimate both the ability of their children to solve technical problems, and their capacity to be deceitful.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #11)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:05 AM

18. Just what

 

did she think, she was going to do with two hand guns,one semi-automatic rifle and hundreds of rounds of ammunition? Her son also wore a bullet proof vest. She also had a job of teaching 5-10 year old kids. What kinda of woman would go around armed like fort knox? She must have had a violent view of things her self. Who did she plan to use those weapons on. I would like to know just what she expected to do with those weapons. I don't accept her mindset. And how do we know her son didn't get his views of the world from her, even if he was mentally disturbed? It seems to me, that he had no sense about preserving life. If his mother espoused her views of resorting to violence, then why not her son? It is just the idea, she had the intent of using those weapons on someoneelse because of her paranoia about other people.

The bottomline is I'm a veteran, and never needed to purchase a weapon in my life, because I have not needed one in this country. The less, you resort to guns, the less likely you are to get killed. When people have the ability to bring a gun into the situation, then the likely hood of losing your life heightens. And I have been in violent situations before, but no gun was present. Once you bring guns into the situation, then the other person is likely to get a gun. What gun lobbyists are advocating is an arms race.

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Response to John2 (Reply #18)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:07 AM

19. There is no information here that indicates that she was going around armed, or that the vest...

 

...even belonged to her.

Maybe she was into target shooting. It doesn't really matter; she's a victim. Why blame her?

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #19)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:42 AM

45. Maybe you heard

 

different, because the initial information says the guns did belong to her. So you think they belonged to her twenty year old son that lived with her. If I was doing the investigation, I would check out her background and why she thought the need to be armed like Fort Knox.

As far as I'm concerned, she was the care taker of her mentally disturbed son and he was under her roof period. There is no indication that her 20 year old son had a job or any income. If I was his father, he wouldn't have access to any guns. I'm retired military and have never needed a gun. And I don't need to be into target shooting to have access to a gun when i can go to any gun club and do it. I'm not into it though because that is not my fetish. When I did fire a gun in the military, it was for the purpose of killing someone. A gun is not a toy. You don't need a gun, unless yoiu plan on killing someone. So why don't you proceed to rebut me, because I think that I can rebut your answers. O would like to hear more of your rationale for her needing all these guns and armed like Fort Knox. Just what was she expecting to happen to her?

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Response to John2 (Reply #45)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:46 AM

51. I'm sorry John2, you seem confused. It's well established that the guns belonged to her.

 

Not the vest. There is no information about where that came from.

...O would like to hear more of your rationale for her needing all these guns and armed like Fort Knox. Just what was she expecting to happen to her?

I don't believe there is any point in trying to figure out why she owned two handguns and one rifle. She had a right to own them. Calling three ordinary firearms "armed like Fort Knox" is just hyperbole.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #51)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:18 AM

72. And now we

 

get some information, she probably even taught her supposedly mentally disturbed son how to shoot? He apparently had some skill if you know any thing about weapons. If I was an investigator, this information would not be hyperbole. It is tying the loose knots. And I would further the investigation to find out if he had any history of being mentally disturbed through any physicians or doctors as his brother claims. After all, he did say the kid hadn't seen his brother in two years.

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Response to John2 (Reply #72)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:21 AM

74. I just heard that too. I've taught many people to shoot, but I know a few people who I would not...

 

...trust with a weapon even under my direct supervision.

Sometimes parents are unable to comprehend their childrens' problems.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #74)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:36 AM

83. Now you,

 

are becoming more reasonable. I'm not stating facts but leaving no stone unturned as the information changes and more come in. It is called putting together a profile of the murderer. You check out all his associations even his mother.

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Response to John2 (Reply #83)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:48 AM

94. Thanks for the kind word John2. I regard myself as a "white hat" gun owner.

 

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #51)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:21 AM

75. Seeing as how she was

Killed and mauled beyond recognition, perhaps she had them to defend herself against the kid.

Still not sure what you expect to happen? Is it a house to house search, then confiscation of all guns? Will we compensate for the value to homes? That's going to be a bundle. Perhaps put all people who own them through a psych test.

And any suggestion, any whiff of this will end up getting almost any democrat, in any state, unelected. So it won't happen anyway. To me, there is no real solution. Random shootings will never move republicans to gun control, so we're sadly stuck in this place, with no real solution.

Personally I think many of these shootings, even the mental health aspect, can be boiled down to economics, too much going to the rich, as to not be able to handle free care or some kind of care for mentally problematic people in society. There should be no financial bars to treatment for these people.

How can we spend 700 Billion on defense, yet we've got this kind of thing happening within our own, flawed society, over, and over, almost weekly?

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Response to John2 (Reply #18)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:27 AM

100. Thank you. Very well said. My dad and granddad were both veterans as well,

and neither owned any guns nor thought that they needed to.

People are what they do. If they buy guns and bullet resistant clothing and thousands of rounds of ammunition and spend hours and hours shooting, that is what they become - people who shoot.

Why some of that energy can't be put into volunteering for Christmas in April, repairing houses for the elderly who own but cannot afford major repairs to their houses, which is what my dad and granddad did, or some other useful activity, I don't know.

That's why I don't understand why so many video games are shooter games, either. I never allowed them in the house, and I don't believe my kids missed a thing by it.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #11)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:02 AM

65. He wasn't a child.

And maybe she was just stupid. But they don't check for "stupid" when someone wants to buy a guy.

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Response to llmart (Reply #65)


Response to valerief (Reply #8)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 08:42 AM

12. Excellent point.

My guess is that she didn't even have a gun safe.

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Response to In_The_Wind (Reply #12)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:11 AM

23. So you

 

think, she had any idea her own son would take her life? I wouldn't even trust her with all the guns she had myself for all I know about her political leanings. She could have been a rightwing extremist, which I consider them all dangerous, the way they see others. That is the real problem. Why did she think that she needed to be armed like Fort Knox? It probably backfired on her.

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Response to John2 (Reply #23)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:20 AM

28. I think ~ she didn't think

through the enormous responsibility that goes with owning a gun.

I don't have children in my home nor do I have visitors but I do keep my gun safe and secure.
I never want harm to befall anyone due to my negligence.

I can't imagine any sane reason why she thought she needed all that fire power.

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Response to In_The_Wind (Reply #28)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:57 AM

62. Now you,

 

are the rationale one. Like I said, I'm ex-military. That is a lot of fire power for three ordinary guns and one of them was a semi-automatic rifle I heard. I'm going to assume that he got the bullet proof vest from her also. If I'm an investigator, that is sufficient evidence, to check out her background and get a profile. I would check out her assiociations to groups like the NRA and what political associations she had. I would not just narrow the investigation to her son and his mental disturbance. What made him decide to take innocent life? Did he get these leanings from his mom? For all we know, she could have been a rightwing whacko.

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Response to valerief (Reply #8)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:22 AM

99. According to some accounts, she took him to the firing range quite regularly where they both

practiced shooting. A neighbor said that she showed him her latest purchase - the rifle and was very proud of it.

So apparently she not only bought them but encouraged him to use them.

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Response to mbperrin (Reply #99)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 06:41 PM

111. I don't understand why these people don't leave such weapons AT THE FIRING RANGE.

If such weapons were permanently secured at the spot where they do their sport shooting, some unstable kid couldn't use one to murder people.

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Response to valerief (Reply #111)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:30 PM

112. Because for too many, these guns are parts of their identity, their very bodies.

They're really not kidding about the cold dead hand thing.

It's deathporn and apparently quite addictive.

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Response to mbperrin (Reply #112)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 12:17 AM

113. Why can't they just have a simple foot fetish instead of a gun fetish if they need a damn fetish?

Sickening.

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Response to valerief (Reply #113)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:20 AM

122. Absolutely!

Or a nice elbow fetish. I've heard some people talk about it, but of course, I don't know anything about it, I just kind of heard some things, you know, I mean, I'm not some kind of kink, not at all.

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Response to rainlillie (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 08:35 AM

9. Cut out medicaid or medicare and see what happens.

 

At least the medical field can keep them calm. Replace republicans dammit!

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Response to rainlillie (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 08:36 AM

10. Imho, this issue has three legs

Gun control, access to mental health care, and a system for helping those who are not compliant with therapy/meds (and the latter would include keeping everyone else safe.)

For your cousin, has your Aunt reached out to NAMI? They are a fantastic organization.

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Response to rainlillie (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 08:45 AM

13. This country has regressed when it comes to mental health.

We seemed to have enough money in the past to take care of the mentally ill, now, they walk among us in desperate circumstances when they should be receiving treatment. A great percentage are drug addicted and homeless, and, many are veterans. It really is a disgrace.

We have soldiers coming home from military service in dire need of help for their mental state as well as physical conditions, with very little money, comparatively speaking, forthcoming from their government. Military aftercare benefits are a joke; hence organizations begging for help from an already impoverished country, begging us over the airwaves to commit to a monthly amount to help our poor veterans. So, they suck the money out of the treasury for their wars, and then beg us to contribute to their mental and physical health, when what was promised them is negated by "we just don't have the money." Still, Defense is by far this country's greatest expense. Waste in military spending is rampant, but they want to do away with help for the poor and hungry among us. I hope this cash cow is broken somehow. I believe I am dreaming.

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Response to rainlillie (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 08:53 AM

14. It's almost like a third rail issue.

I knew a Vietnam Vet who was obsessed with weapons, rifles in particular. He was mentally ill and an alcoholic. Yet he had a yellow card, allowing him to purchase weapons.

He had threatened his family with his guns when they denied him his demands. Once or twice it was discussed that someone should take away his guns, especially as he had no money to buy replacements. It was argued that gesture would make no difference. First, he had learned to steal from them and sell what he stole. Second, he had learned how to find gun sellers outside the system and he could likely get new weapons within 24 hours.

My point: unless a mentally ill person is confined to where he cannot get access to weapons at all, he will find a way to get those weapons.

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Response to no_hypocrisy (Reply #14)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:00 AM

15. Another good point you bring up

is that someone with a mental health issue may choose to self-medicate with drugs or alcohol. I'm not saying this veteran did this, but it occurs. When there exists a stigma associated with mental health issues, it is easier and more socially-acceptable for some to buy a fifth of vodka.

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Response to Sienna86 (Reply #15)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:03 AM

17. That exactly was the case in my example.

You couldn't talk to him. His family was in denial about his mental health issues and became enablers. When at last they kicked him out of their home, he went to live in a shed on their property -- in the winter. When most people would have called Social Services, they allowed him to live there, even getting a heater with an extension cord.

Families who are afraid or in denial are a big part of the problem. The descent is never a surprise.

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Response to no_hypocrisy (Reply #17)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:46 AM

49. What would social services do for him? Temp housing in a shelter?

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #49)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:55 AM

59. Ideally lifelong commitment to a facility like when a criminal is adjudicated

as mentally unfit to stand trial.

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Response to no_hypocrisy (Reply #59)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:35 AM

81. I don't think they commit anyone "life long" until after a heinous criminal act- the usual is to

take them in for only 20-30 days - whatever insurance will pay, then dump them. But from what I understand, the person needs to be deemed an immediate danger to themselves or another.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #81)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:35 AM

82. And that's the problem.

There are multiple "ticking time bombs" out there with access to weapons.

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Response to no_hypocrisy (Reply #82)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:36 AM

84. parents have no options except to kick them out. it's sick.

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Response to rainlillie (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:01 AM

16. From what I have heard - the mother owned the guns. Apparently they were easilly accessible.

Someone picked them up, loaded them, shot the owner, then walked away with them.

A gun owner that makes that series of events possible and allows it to happen is irresponsible and criminal. And sometimes dead.

We need to address a number of things related to gun control IMO:
1. gun ownership, safety and personal responsibility
2. hardware safety and lockout regulation - ie: require some or all of gun locks, trigger locks, safes for gun storage
3. mental illness and health care for mental illness
4. background checks and psychological profiles for firearm sales
5. federal and local firearm and firearm ownership databases
6. reform ownership/buying regulation - federally enforced waiting periods and "reason for purchase" requirements

Almost any effort at reform and regulation will be opposed by the gun lobby. But we have to start somewhere. I do not see the path that we are on is sustainable. At some point public outrage and opposition will become overwhelming. At that point the gun lobby will lose in a big way.

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Response to rainlillie (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:08 AM

20. Yep! Mentally Ill people and guns — not a good mix

Last edited Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:34 AM - Edit history (1)

Guns and mentally ill people being able to get them is why these shooting keep happening. It happens in other countries too (the Norway shooter, for instance. I think it was Norway.) But it happens so much more often here because we have so many more guns around — all types of automatic and semi-automatic guns, and handguns. Fucking handguns! Hand guns serve no purpose but to shoot people with. That is what they are designed for. And don't give me the target shooting crap. Target shooting is to make one more proficient at hitting targets, many shaped like human torsos. Duh!

We need to outlaw handguns and automatic weapons for everyone but the police and the military. Shotguns and sporting rifles, ok, but let's get rid of all these killing guns and live like the rest of the civilized world. There were 23 gun deaths in the UK last year because casual gun ownership is not allowed there. There were 31,000 in the US. Let's get a grip. Fuck the NRA. And as far as the 2nd Amendment goes and the "well regulated militia" it describes, we have that in the military, the National Guard and the police — local and state — for God's sake! We don't need every Tom, Dick and Crazy being able to get automatic weapons and handguns — killing guns. The founding fathers were cognizant of and fearful of war with Britain, also of the need for protection from wild animals on the frontier and from Native Americans, who they were stealing land from (I know, it's unfortunate but true.). They had absolutely no concept of automatic weapons and their rates of fire that number in the 100s per minute (Uzis can fire at up to 900 ROUNDS PER MINUTE)

Long guns at that time required required minutes to load. The following is a quote from "Or Rocks, Trees, Rifles, and Militia" by Christopher Geist.

"Then there is the romantic mythology surrounding the American militia, those intrepid citizen-soldiers whose battlefield heroics faced down the finest army in the world. Problem is, as Washington himself knew from the beginning of the conflict, militia was undependable, poorly trained, and generally ineffective on the field of battle. They came armed with civilian weapons ranging from fine rifles to cheap trade muskets to fowling pieces—known today as shotguns. Within each of these categories of arms, there were differences among individual weapons. A unit equipped with almost as many different kinds of arms as soldiers could not load and rapidly fire volleys in unison."

So even George Washington was wary of militia. The 2nd Amendment needs to be struck or revised for our national sanity because we've certainly gone off the deep end with this whole gun worshiping thing. Little kids are getting slaughtered now. It's time.

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Response to brush (Reply #20)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:24 AM

78. agree with your viewpoints

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Response to brush (Reply #20)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 05:36 AM

115. how about everybody gets to have the guns that were current at the time of the 2nd amendment

Everything after that is up for discussion. (I personally would prefer to get rid of even those.)

Mental illness plus guns are not a good mix indeed, although I don't think it's just mentally ill people who are the problem, and they are probably more likely to hurt themselves than anybody else. It's PEOPLE and guns that aren't a good mix, people who are pissed off or who are assholes generally. Mentally ill people aren't, from what I have read, any more violent than anybody else--but people who are mentally ill (and I include in "mentally ill" the seeing-red anger that any human being is subject to) but violent don't have the restraints on their behavior that more composed people might.

The second amendment really needs to be revisited in an historical context. The guys who wrote it could never have imagined guns that could fire off 900 rounds per minute. That simply is not the kind of well-regulated militia they envisioned.

Edited because I didn't know the wording of the second amendment.

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Response to renate (Reply #115)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 05:56 AM

116. ..and can only express themselves using 18th C. technology.

You know if it's tried with the Second Amendment, the natural question will be:
Why would this not apply to all the other amendments?

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Response to renate (Reply #115)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 11:51 AM

117. Agreed

It is more the seeing-red, pissed off people with access to guns who are a big part of the problem.

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Response to rainlillie (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:10 AM

21. I have had it with this mass bigotry in defense of your precious guns

Most of those who suffer from mental illness are in fact women. How many women do you see shooting up schools and malls?

You have decided this guy has a mental illness because he used the gun for the purpose it was designed for. The true insanity is society wide and held by people who believe there can be 300 million guns around and they won't be used. Gun proponents are the crazy ones. I have depression, which fucks up my own life but no one else's. There is nothing remotely violent about my behavior. Moreover, I don't go around promoting gun policies that result in mass murder. The NRA, their defenders, and our society that cow-tows to them is what is truly insane.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #21)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:11 AM

22. I think an act of mass murder is ipso facto proof that a person has some form of mental illness

 

Don't you agree?

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #22)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:20 AM

27. Let's not talk symptoms cause you won't like where that goes.

Personally, when I hear about how gun and ammo sales spike every time Obama wins an election. I see a vast disconnect between objective reality and paranoid fantasy. Seems like a cry for help from a substantial fraction of the population.

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Response to Pholus (Reply #27)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:23 AM

33. Or maybe an indication of a strenthening economy

 

Consumer sales are the main driver of the economy. People buying more things that aren't necessities is a strong indicator of improved consumer sales.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #33)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:39 AM

87. Oh yes, that was the reason....

It had nothing to do with economics. The reasons they were happy to tell the local liberal here....

1. That guns would be grabbed
2. That SOSHULISM was coming (my misspellng
represents the lack of agreement with any
accepted definition in the dictionary)
3. A black man is in the white house.
4. It might be needed to "take the country back"

However I sympathize with your unwillingness to face the reality behind that crap. It is infinitely sad to consider the consequences.

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Response to Pholus (Reply #87)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:49 AM

95. I don't dispute that there are some paranoid people who buy guns for weird reasons out there

 

My last firearm purchase was because it was on sale.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #95)


Response to slackmaster (Reply #22)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:22 AM

31. I think you

 

have a mental problem period when you arm yourself like Fort knox. People advocating succession and egg meats sperm is murder, has a mental problem to me like blowing up clinics to preserve it.

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Response to John2 (Reply #31)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:24 AM

34. Thank you for that fine example of authentic frontier gibberish

 

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #22)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:35 AM

38. He was a violent murderer

Who was able to kill because he had access to machines designed precisely for that purpose.

It's easy to conclude someone was deranged after the fact. But what good does that do? Oh, I know. It provides you with a scapegoat to pretend that having 300 million guns around has nothing to do with the fact the US has extraordinary rates of gun deaths.

Perhaps we can conclude that anyone who thinks they need multiple guns must suffer from some serious mental problems. They likely have paranoid personalities and a strong tendency toward violence. Why else would they feel a need to own anything other than a hunting rifle?

How interesting you are so eager to draw conclusions about mental illness, but we are to reserve judgment on guns because they are more important than anything else. Guns have such delicate feelings.

I don't know what he gunman's history was, but I know he used guns to murder 27 people. But he himself did not buy those guns, so pretending that creating laws related to the mentally ill would have done anything in this situation ignores the facts of the case.

The idea that you can deal with this problem by taking it out on 25% of the population that has mental illness rather than the gun lobby that does everything possible to arm as many people as possible is yet another attempt to do anything to protect guns above all else.

I can tell you if he had lived, the courts would not have taken any claims of mental illness seriously.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #38)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:40 AM

42. Now you are suggesting that the killer's mother, a victim, was mentally ill because she owned guns

 

I can't carry on a conversation with you at this point. Good bye.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #42)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:48 AM

53. good god

My point was that one can easily conjecture. And you have chosen to make suppositions those that support your love of guns. You don't have evidence. You don't know what the actual facts are, but you are happy to make assumptions that help you defend your gun rights. My point was meant as an example of assuming something based on one's ideological point of view rather than actual medical evidence.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #53)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:22 AM

76. I would have wanted you...

 

in my debate class in school.

Brava!

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Response to Helen Reddy (Reply #76)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:51 PM

106. Thanks! nt

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #21)


Response to Kei7777 (Reply #32)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:44 AM

47. Your hero Reagan closed down the loony bins

and you people refuse to pay for mental health treatment. The post isn't about this guy. It's about all people with mental illness. And yes, as much as I'd love to see the clinically insane right wing tea baggers locked up, your party refuses to pay for it. Instead it sends them to Washington.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #21)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:19 AM

73. Thank you, well said! n/t

 

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #21)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:37 AM

85. Thank you.

The OP seems to be saying instead of blaming the monsters with guns who use guns to kill kids, blame the mentally ill. Nothing like railroading all mentally ill people and saying we are all violent, when the truth is so far from that. I'm sick and disgusted that the so-called sane people are blaming the mentally ill and claiming we are all violent. We are NOT all violent.

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Response to rainlillie (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:13 AM

24. Stop Teaching Gun Violence!

Computer games are used to teach math and other subjects. Videos are used to illustrate how to do math and other skills. Children learn how to do math from watching videos and playing computer games. Are we to believe that violent computer games, videos, and movies do not teach violence? Are we to believe that children decide to learn math from computer games, but turn off learning when the game involves shooting people? Are we to believe that children and young adults with mental health problems make this type of distinction? In other words, are we fools and idots? Will we continue to brainlessly accept the marketing spin of video and computer game profiteers when they assure us that violent games and videos do not affect behavior?

Oh, you say the people involved have a right to earn a living? Our Constitution is about life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, not life, liberty, and the pursuit of money. Violence training materials are certainly as big a public nuisance as organized crime. Stop violence education now!

Possession of movies, videos, and computer games that teach, illustrate, or depict gun violence should be banned. Possession of such should be totally illegal including existing products. In 1933, and for forty years thereafter, personal possession of gold was banned, and citizens were required to trade it in, especially gold coins. We can certainly do the same with violence training materials.

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Response to Maineman (Reply #24)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:12 PM

107. Unfortunately for your thesis

studies show no correlation between violent video games and real-world violence. For example, the rate of violent crime is down despite all the violent video games being sold.

You're also repeating what your parents said about TV. Who were repeating what their parents said about movies. Who were repeating what their parents said about books.

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Response to rainlillie (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:17 AM

25. Lack of access to good mental health care

plus fairly easy access to firearms is a deadly combination. In many recent cases, it seems like everybody realized the shooter had mental health problems. Yet, nothing was done until it was too late.

If the US is unwilling or unable to provide decent mental health care, then I suggest we pass a federal law making the registered gun owner an accomplice to any crime committed with that firearm. Hey, the RW is quick to say each of us needs to have more "personal responsibility." If one chooses to purchase a firearm, s/he should be personally responsible for everything that happens with the gun. Of course, that won't stop someone with mental illness from buying his own guns. Do you make anyone who wants to own guns pass a test or get a license?

There's just no easy solution to the problem.

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Response to rainlillie (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:17 AM

26. Great...

... when you come up with a way to identify ALL of the mentally ill that will go on a shooting spree, killing innocents for no damn reason, BEFORE they get their hands on the killing machines that do it, let us know.

I can easily identify which guns can be used to kill people.

ALL of them.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #26)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:20 AM

29. My solution is very simple. I keep all firearms securely locked up in a big, sturdy safe.

 

Except of course when I am using them, and then they are constantly under my control.

That has been my practice for many years even though I now live alone.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #29)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:29 AM

36. Wonderful.

You gonna take care of doing the same for the rest of 300 million other guns flooding the nation? And could you do it today, please?

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #36)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:33 AM

37. I would support a federal law mandating safe storage

 

Also universal gun safety education, and some kind of federal tax incentive to make it easier for people to do the right thing. My safe cost almost $3,000, but I bought it because I felt it was necessary for many reasons.

Please don't make pursuit of perfection the enemy of some kind of improvement.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #37)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:46 AM

52. It isn't you or your methods that worry me.

It the lack of understanding that regardless of that, the insistence that some how or another, you doing so is a comfort when atrocities keep happening at an ever increasing frequency. I assure you it isn't, not even close. Since the gun toting and fetishing community has failed to do anything to curb this insanity beyond offer lame excuses, it's time the 2nd A was repealed and your toys taken away. You liking it, isn't required.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #52)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:50 AM

55. Good luck getting the legislatures of 38 states to buy in on that one

 

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #55)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:55 AM

58. So we just let the murdering scum win?

Great idea, bud.

Be too fucking cowardly to even try.

Yessiree, gun psychos all sound the same.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #58)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:56 AM

60. I presented a rational, sane, realistic, workable idea here, and you've attempted to trash it

 

Why are you doing this?

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #60)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:08 AM

68. No, you didn't.

I am "doing this" because killing babies with guns is wrong.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #68)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:14 AM

70. So, you don't think a madatory safe storage law is a good idea?

 

Why not?

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #70)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:26 AM

79. Don't put words in my mouth...

... okay, pal?

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #79)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:51 AM

97. I'm trying to determine why you denied that I presented a constructive idea

 

That's all.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #70)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:48 AM

101. Mandatory safe storage is a good idea, but how many can afford an expensive safe?

Will guns be denied based on income, on the ability to purchase safe storage?

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Response to kwassa (Reply #101)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:49 AM

102. That's why I think there should be some kind of tax incentive for people who buy robust safes

 

Yes, they are expensive.

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Response to kwassa (Reply #101)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:15 PM

108. Guns are already denied based on income

If you can't afford the gun you want, you are denied that weapon based on income.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #108)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:02 PM

109. I guess I'll never get that shoulder-fired rocket, then.

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Response to kwassa (Reply #109)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 08:47 PM

118. No, that's banned by several laws.

The price is surprisingly low. The problem is laws restricting who can own explosives and rockets.

Which somehow are OK, but laws against guns are evil. Despite the fact that guns will not be effective if the gun nut fantasy of fighting off the government occurred - I'd like to see them try to use a Glock against an F-35.

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Response to rainlillie (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:22 AM

30. it's begining to look

like young males in this country all need to be psychiatrically evaluated by the age of 15 because there have been waaay too many late teens-20something males picking up assault rifles and mowing down crowds of innocent people. Then it is discovered that they've had mental health issues which have gone unaddressed/undiagnosed for years. That, more than likely, is due to the abysmal state of mental health services in this country, the stigma that is still attached to mental health, that insurance companies only throw crumbs of coverage at it and the prevailing religious notion that all they needed to do was pray to god and their problems would magically go away, and the church of scientology working hard to circumvent effective intervention for people with mental illness (google that).

Too many parents have tried reaching out for help and have had their hands slapped away by the insurance companies, the state (we can't do anything unless they harm someone) and by those who have absolutely no training in either medicine or psychiatry (CofS) and are told to have their child "go walk it off", basically, or religion telling them "you're not praying to god hard enough--donate to my church and god will hear your prayers". Meanwhile, that child won't take the medication--or their parents can't afford the out of pocket cost--and they act out under the torment of their condition and the parents are exasperated because they just don't know what to do or where to turn.

When this country finally faces the fact that mental health is just as important a health issue has physical health, then we as a nation might start seeing a decline in these horrible shootings. But it's clear that the death of children isn't enough to turn that tide--we're becoming desensitized slowly but surely to children being gunned down in cold blood. Dead children are not nearly as important as some mentally ill person not having any obstacles placed in his path to obtaining and using a gun.

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Response to rainlillie (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:27 AM

35. Yes, I do agree`

all this kind of stuff will continue--no matter the gun laws or who is conceal carrying. Mental illness is alive and well in the US--and until we deal with that---this kind of senseless violence will only continue. People like that young man who did what he did today--are mentally ill and I suspect had a death wish. NOTHING was going to deter them from carrying out what they wanted to do--because they aren't thinking rationally. Only rational people would be deterred from entering a place to shoot people if they knew others were carrying. I seriously doubt a mental ill/unstable person would care. We need to deal with the core of the problem of these shootings-- MENTALLY ILL PEOPLE--instead of just dealing simplistically by arming people to shoot those who try this. Why not try and prevent the people from getting to that point in the first place? Mental illness is still very misunderstood in the US--with huge stigmas attached. We need to treat it like we do any other health issue--for the good of all of us--or more stuff like this will continue--no matter if we ALL are armed.

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Response to rainlillie (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:35 AM

39. I would probably be defined as 'mentally ill.'

I have dealt with depression for 40 years. This includes 2 major episodes when I signed myself in to get help I knew I needed. I have never felt the urge to hurt anyone but myself.

I will not get a gun because even though I have a handle on it now, if I was to drop into a black hole it is too easy to end everything before any steps to help are taken. Logically I know that I can recover. However, that is overridden by the massive dark cloud that interrupts every part of life. I do not believe anything will help.

If I tell some people that I do deal with depression, I am viewed with side eyes. I know that many are uncomfortable and that some wonder if I am going to suddenly erupt into some homicidal tornado.

Many people do not make distinctions. I have to be careful if I decide to confide in anyone. It is a burden for those who try to help. When I need someone to talk to, my cats psychoanalyze me many times.

This is what society and our system of mental health have created. People who need help that could ease problems before they curl up into nothing are shit out of luck. Many just suffer in silence for what can seem like eternity. Others who have major problems are never given the help they need or cannot be dealt with in a humane way that keeps them from harming others.

It is beyond shameful. Please consider all the ramifications of dealing with the 'mentally ill'. It is a catchall term that traps people in a type of limbo or outcast group for a long time.

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Response to Are_grits_groceries (Reply #39)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:42 AM

44. You have made a good decision. I know several people with depression who have done the same.

 

I will not get a gun because even though I have a handle on it now, if I was to drop into a black hole it is too easy to end everything before any steps to help are taken.

That shows maturity, insight and wisdom.

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Response to rainlillie (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:40 AM

41. The problem is diagnosing the illness. Most mentally ill persons show no outward signs. My brother

is a very handsome man with a tortured soul. He also does not carry any type of ID to indicate he has a mental illness. One indication would be the types of medications he takes but that is confidential information. So the problem is finding a constitutional method of identifying the illness.

Also I seriously doubt that a 20 year old like the man who murdered those children has even been diagnosed yet and is probably not taking medications for mental illness. One indication I have noted in many of these cases is that parents are very aware of their children's problems and have done nothing to get them help. When my brother was diagnosed the doctor told us to keep firearms away from him and from that day there were NO guns in our home. We now have a safe witch holds all firearms safely from both him and other diagnosed family members and children.

This is not going to be an easy problem to solve.

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Response to jwirr (Reply #41)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:43 AM

46. I think indications are that the murderer in this case was in fact diagnosed with a personality...

 

...disorder.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #46)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:45 AM

48. And his mother still bought the guns for him? I wonder what her diagnosis was?

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Response to jwirr (Reply #48)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:48 AM

54. Circular reasoning, and not very good

 

You believe she was mentally ill because she bought weapons and gave them to her mentally ill son, but there is no information to indicate that she bought them for anyone other than herself.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #54)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:57 AM

61. I heard that they were all registered in her name - The Ed Show.

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Response to jwirr (Reply #61)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:58 AM

63. Yes, they were registered in her name because they belonged to her

 

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Response to jwirr (Reply #41)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:51 AM

56. the problem is getting treatment before violence happens.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #56)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:53 AM

57. That's a very big problem, and people generally have a right to refuse treatment

 

That's why it's so important for people who own guns to keep them securely locked up, especially when there are children or unstable people in the home.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #57)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:41 AM

88. yes. and treatment is inadequate at best.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #88)


Response to slackmaster (Reply #96)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:59 AM

98. as have I. when you see such ignorance about it here, it gets easier to understand

why some people are careless with their guns. they seem to believe it's easy to tell who'll act out violently and easy to get them committed. i guess its one of those things people don't get till they live with it

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Response to jwirr (Reply #41)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:47 AM

93. Are you saying you advocate forcing mentally ill people to carry special ID cards

indicating that we are mentally ill? You automatically think all mentally ill people are violent? I've never wanted to harm myself or others. I never would. Yet, you lump me in with this fuckhead that kill 20 children. Gee, thanks for the hate. With friends like you, who the fuck needs enemies?

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Response to Jamastiene (Reply #93)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:28 PM

105. I did not say that and I would not. I was pointing out that there is not way to identify anyone

with mental illness. My brother has severe bi polar and we are holding our breathe because it is very likely that he will someday end his own life. Our family has supported him in all ways we can because we believe he has a right to freedom. We also took the easily accessible guns out of our home the day he was diagnosed.


Is this your first post here? If you had followed my posts you would know that I advocate for both the mentally ill and developmentally ill persons and have for a lifetime. My family has a five generation and counting history of bi polar. We went through the discrimination of the eugenics movement. I is idiotic to think I want any more discrimination.

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Response to rainlillie (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:02 AM

64. Some insurance, if not all of them

allows only for a few sessions to treat mental disorders and many only cover for 50% of costs of seeing mental health professionals. Some insurance companies only cover 20 to 30 sessions a year and they also dictate what type of therapy must be given to a client . I think a passage of a comprehensive mental health bill is a high priority.

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Response to rainlillie (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:37 AM

86. Reagan threw them all out of the institutions onto the street. Insurance won't pay, or I

should say, fights not to pay. Another problem universal health care could alleviate!

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Response to rainlillie (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:41 AM

89. I take it you think all mentally ill people are violent and all mass shooters

and serial killers are mentally ill. I've got news for you. You are wrong. Name a serial killer and go look up their mental health status. Most of them are sane, completely sane. You sane people need to own that and quit blaming the mentally ill every time something like this happens. What an ignorant prejudiced OP. You should be ashamed of yourself stigmatizing an entire group of people and blaming the mentally ill for what one monster did.

Fuck your prejudice and blame shifting.

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Response to Jamastiene (Reply #89)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 05:26 AM

114. You can take it that way, but you'd be wrong!

As I've stated the last few mass killers were on record as having mental health issues. So far the MSM has said the the latest killer was diagnosed with a mental disorder too. I don't know why in the hell some people on here would like to take the same damn approach that has failed over and over again. We need to recognize the fact that there are people who are not getting the help they need and desperate, exhausted family members who have tried to get help, and due to the way the system is set up, have failed. We need to look at everything, because what we're doing so far hasn't worked. No one in their right mind who can read and comprehend will think that I said all mentally ill people are killers. I said the last few guys who have committed mass murders within the past two years were mentally ill .. that's just a fact. We can either keep screaming to the top of our lungs for gun control or we can try a different approach and talk about gun control along with sufficient mental health care.

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Response to rainlillie (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:41 AM

90. some years ago (the 70's) we went with community options

close or severly limit the looney bins instead have mentally ill folk
recieve treatment close to home
works better is cheaper we all win.

so laws were tightened to make it harder(and rightly so) to committ
someone to a hosptial facility.

the problem was that while the hopitals were pretty much assured of funding,
alas community options were not and we basically turned the mentally ill into a
larger portion on the homeless population

the community options model prob still is the best answer but in a nation
where obamacare is seen as socialist--what of the odds of that ever getting funded????

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Response to rainlillie (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:45 AM

92. Unfortunately, the AMA is raising all copays/coinsurance on the most fragile

of the mental health population, those with high complexity and the most serious mental illnesses.

Starting in 2013, they have unbundled mental health services for psychiatrists so instead of billing for services that were previously bundled together (psychotherapy and med management), they will now bill two codes with the med management part being an E&M Code (instead of the old 90862 which was the med management code).

Unfortunately, the E&M Codes for the most complex cases cost many times more than the old 90862 code. For example, someone with the highest complexity level (still only 3% of mental health patients) they probably had an allowable of about $60 for a 90862. Now, for a 99215 they will have an allowable of $100 or more (I believe the CMS rate is >$140 for this service) so any members who have a coinsurance could now see that double.

Providers and the AMA say this is a parity issue but really it's just going to raise premiums and rates for their members.

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Response to rainlillie (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:49 AM

103. Fuck that.

Guns are the problem. Everything else is a bandaid.

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Response to rainlillie (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:10 PM

110. mentally ill covers a large spectrum. someone with anxiety disorder or ADHD probably not shooting up

the joint like someone with more severe types of mental illness might...

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Response to rainlillie (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:59 AM

123. The people in GD who are making these absolutist, draconian, ignorant decistions for all

 

"mentally ill" persons are so uninformed regarding actual mental illness it is beyond appalling. I see much self-congratulatory back patting and little understanding that "mental illness" covers an extreme range of symptoms, characteristics, and treatments.

It is an extreme prejudice to bunch everyone into the category of potential killer. Do all homosexuals have AIDS, and should they be locked up lest they infect "the rest of us"? Insurance companies attempted to ID them and it would have been toxic, devastating, and inhuman much less inhumane to single out victims of a deadly disease for screening against coverage, much less petitioning to remove them from society. Which is what you are suggesting here, en mass. This is hideous beyond words. You have no concept of wards and asylums. Spend a month or two in one and I strongly believe you'd have an entirely different take on the issue of forcing anyone you wish into a box against their will.

Doesn't anyone else see the extremely slippery slope upon which this tilts? How can anyone justify force against an entire minority just to protect their own skin? Come countries have done this, described a target group as The Other, in order to have the population see them as less then themselves, as less than human, so that stuffing them away and even mass-murdering them would not seem a crime at all. Because they're less than, they're not like us. Guess what? Self-preservation at the cost of freedom for an entire minority is an astonishingly brutal proposal. At least Swift was being humorous in his Modest Proposal but I detect no humor in GD these last few days. I see searching for simple solutions to complex problems. Locking people up is horrible, it is medieval, when support and adequate treatment is the real, humane answer. Guess who loves to cut this? Republicans. Why aren't people screaming at repubs for helping set up these disasters through enormous cuts to mental health care, much less for helping make guns as available as nearly anything else in our society. Scream at them, then help the mentally ill, and most importantly, educate yourselves because your prejudice is intolerable. There are more "mentally ill" people in the country than you would imagine, from addicts in recovery (who have jobs at all levels of society including that of soldier) to Veterans to victims of abuse and rape to average people with chemistry pre-disposed to mild depression. Guess what? I'm dual diagnosis and I dislike guns and violence and always have. I really want to keep it away from me. I despise the fear and violence addiction in our "society". Why not attempt to fix that instead? How many television shows are about violence and not love? Are there any prime-time shows based upon love (not including comedies). Plenty of violence. People vote with viewership and violence is prevalent. As are guns in homes.

Stop blaming the victims of mental illness. Blame the republicans who slash mental health care at seemingly every opportunity, who help gun lobbyists keep in power, who block progressive measures to a more peaceful society and world.

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Response to rainlillie (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 03:04 AM

124. Yes, this sort of thing can be obtained legally:



That's the problem.

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