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Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:04 PM

I'm a gun owner, and a father. I'm sick, I'm sad, and I'm ready to talk about gun control...

My heart goes out to those families who lost their most precious treasure, AND those parents whose children were spared but whose children will have to bear the memory of what happened today for the rest of their lives. I'm ready to talk about gun control and how we as a NATION might take steps to keep this kind of horror from happening again.

I'm willing to talk. I'm willing to debate. I'm willing to work with anyone/everyone who's willing to talk and debate what can be done to make this horrible tragedy a stepping stone to preventing this from happening again.

I'm hoping beyond hope that with this thread I can attract people who can debate the issue of gun violence without descending to the point of calling all gun owners and those supporting the Second Amendment paranoid, nuts, fetishists etc. Normally, that is where any meaningful debate ends...

I'm willing to entertain ANY reasonable idea in the context of gun control short of completely disarming American Citizens. I know there are a large number of people who think civilians cannot be trusted with guns and should thus be denied the right to own them. I don't run with that crowd. In my admittedly shallow belief system, if the populace is denied the right to arm themselves, they cease to be Citizens, and immediately become SUBJECTS. We can argue that belief and its implications all day long...

Okay, so where do we go from here? Let's talk. Let's talk about ways to keep guns out of the hands of INSANE PEOPLE such as Adam Lanza, and people like him. Let's do it though WITHOUT DUers insulting other DUers. Every insult slung toward gun owners today was an insult slung at DUers. How is that at all acceptable?

I won't call you a gun grabber if you don't call me paranoid, a fetishist, or compare my ownership of guns to the size of my admittedly small penis.

Let's talk about gun control. Offer an idea, and let's debate it. Let's do it like adults though. Let's do it like DUers. Leave your preconceptions at the door. Leave your insults at the door. My small penis has absolutely nothing to do with my ownership of guns, most of which were passed to me by my Grandfather, Father, and others in my family.

I'll start by stating my belief that guns don't make people crazy. Guns don't make people murderous. They may be a means to an end, but they don't inspire the end. Maybe we should propose and pass laws wherein someone can report someone else as being a "disturbed" person, and the resulting action could be a warrented search of their premises and confiscation of any item deemed to be dangerous to others... I don't know?

Can we do it without insults though? Debate it I mean?

Here's my only precondition: Insult gun owners willing to debate the issue and I'll self-delete the thread; Discuss the issue like adults WITHOUT insulting those who disagree with you, and I won't.

62 replies, 2669 views

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Reply I'm a gun owner, and a father. I'm sick, I'm sad, and I'm ready to talk about gun control... (Original post)
cherokeeprogressive Dec 2012 OP
Hoyt Dec 2012 #1
cherokeeprogressive Dec 2012 #3
Honeycombe8 Dec 2012 #2
cherokeeprogressive Dec 2012 #7
rustydog Dec 2012 #4
gateley Dec 2012 #5
X_Digger Dec 2012 #6
Kolesar Dec 2012 #16
X_Digger Dec 2012 #20
Kolesar Dec 2012 #24
X_Digger Dec 2012 #31
ManiacJoe Dec 2012 #30
Mojorabbit Dec 2012 #51
Iggy Dec 2012 #8
rwheeler31 Dec 2012 #9
cherokeeprogressive Dec 2012 #12
ManiacJoe Dec 2012 #35
Hoyt Dec 2012 #61
ThatPoetGuy Dec 2012 #10
cherokeeprogressive Dec 2012 #11
ThatPoetGuy Dec 2012 #15
cherokeeprogressive Dec 2012 #27
morningfog Dec 2012 #13
cherokeeprogressive Dec 2012 #14
morningfog Dec 2012 #19
Kolesar Dec 2012 #17
cherokeeprogressive Dec 2012 #28
Kolesar Dec 2012 #29
cherokeeprogressive Dec 2012 #34
ManiacJoe Dec 2012 #33
bullwinkle428 Dec 2012 #18
X_Digger Dec 2012 #22
rwheeler31 Dec 2012 #21
JohnnyLib2 Dec 2012 #23
BlueCheese Dec 2012 #25
cherokeeprogressive Dec 2012 #32
BlueCheese Dec 2012 #36
ReasonableToo Dec 2012 #41
SpartanDem Dec 2012 #52
Generic Other Dec 2012 #26
cherokeeprogressive Dec 2012 #37
Generic Other Dec 2012 #43
WinkyDink Dec 2012 #38
cherokeeprogressive Dec 2012 #39
WinkyDink Dec 2012 #40
cherokeeprogressive Dec 2012 #45
Jamastiene Dec 2012 #42
democrattotheend Dec 2012 #44
cherokeeprogressive Dec 2012 #48
democrattotheend Dec 2012 #62
shintao Dec 2012 #46
ananda Dec 2012 #47
shintao Dec 2012 #49
Budgies Revenge Dec 2012 #50
BeyondGeography Dec 2012 #53
Budgies Revenge Dec 2012 #56
BeyondGeography Dec 2012 #58
Budgies Revenge Dec 2012 #60
yewberry Dec 2012 #54
Whovian Dec 2012 #55
villager Dec 2012 #57
Budgies Revenge Dec 2012 #59

Response to cherokeeprogressive (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:07 PM

1. Good start.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #1)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:10 PM

3. We've disagreed in the past. I've "evolved".

I'll respect your opinion if you respect mine.

There HAS to be some kind of middle ground...

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:09 PM

2. Excellent post. But because someone owns a gun doesn't mean they're against controls.

Why do people assume that?

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #2)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:16 PM

7. I have no idea. This seems to be one of those topics where you're "with me", or "agin me".

What bothers me most is the way one side seems to feel the need to insult the other.

I'll admit I've used the terms "anti's", and "grabbers". I'll also admit I was wrong; there is merit to both sides of the argument.

I just know in my heart that BOTH sides are hurting tonight... I know I am. NO person could feel anything other than sorrow.

Let's talk about how to keep guns out of those who might do others harm. I'm all for that.

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:10 PM

4. Me too

I have been for some time now.

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:13 PM

5. I know you speak for many gun owners.

I have no input, but I want those like you who want to keep their guns to be able to. I'm tired of you all being vilified.

Rachel was mentioning that Israel and Switzerland (I think it was Switzerland) have a high pcentage of gun-owning citizenry, too, but they don't have these mass shootings that happen here. I don't know what the difference is - if it's their laws or not -- but we should make a concerted effort to learn what works elsewhere and implement it here.

More than the guns, though, I wonder what it is that makes so many of these people so desperate.

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:13 PM

6. First proposal: crack the whip on states who are lax about entering mental health commitments..

.. into NICS.

That is a no-brainer that everyone should be able to support.

Re your idea about 'reporting someone'- there already exist procedures in every state I'm familiar with to present evidence that someone should be evaluated as a danger to him/herself and/or others.

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Response to X_Digger (Reply #6)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:40 PM

16. There's that "mental health" meme; the prescription for deflecting the discussion

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Response to Kolesar (Reply #16)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:44 PM

20. There's Kolesar, flinging poo from the sidelines rather than participating.

Care to actually jump in?

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Response to X_Digger (Reply #20)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:54 PM

24. Scatological term from the guy named "digger" eom

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Response to Kolesar (Reply #24)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:05 PM

31. Apparently you aren't prepared to participate. Ah well, I tried. n/t

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Response to X_Digger (Reply #6)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:05 PM

30. Exactly right on the NICS input.

Everyone likes the prohibition on "crazies", but too many complain about entering the data.

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Response to X_Digger (Reply #6)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:29 AM

51. I totally agree here. nt

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:17 PM

8. I Hear You, But it May Be Too Late at This Point...

 

"When I hear children's voices ringing in a yard, my feelings aren't so hard"... "Hideaway" by Iggy Pop

so even a "weirdo" like Iggy Pop gets it: children are beautiful, special. and now a whole bunch have been slaughtered.

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:18 PM

9. Can we make these gun shows less popular and profitable?

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Response to rwheeler31 (Reply #9)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:27 PM

12. ANY gun purchased at a gun show should be subject to some kind of registration. I have no problem

with that notion.

NO gun should trade hands without some kind of paperwork signifying the seller AND buyer. I'm PERFECTLY willing to go there.

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Response to rwheeler31 (Reply #9)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:15 PM

35. While at the gun show, (and everywhere else)

make the NICS system accessible to the private sellers. Their purposeful exclusion from the system does not help us in any way.

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Response to rwheeler31 (Reply #9)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:01 AM

61. The key to the whole thing is to make guns "less popular." When parents stop bringing their kids up


in the gun culture, we'll be getting somewhere. Instead today, we have parents who think leaving their kids their guns is a fitting legacy. It's not.

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:18 PM

10. There are racists, sexists, and homophobes among DUers...

just as there are among other large groups. I can say "I hate racists," but by your logic, that would be unacceptable:

"Every insult slung toward gun owners and the NRA today was an insult slung at DUers. How is that at all acceptable?"

The NRA is an organization that does a number of things, one of which is spread propaganda, misinformation, and racism. To say that they should be unassailable because some DUers are members is absurd.

If DUers don't want to be insulted, they shouldn't support evil right-wing organizations.

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Response to ThatPoetGuy (Reply #10)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:24 PM

11. My point was that today gun owners who support RKBA were automatically deemed supporters of the NRA.

I don't suppor the NRA. I don't visit their website, I don't read their literature, NOR do I donate to their cause. The ONLY thing I know about "NRA talking points" is what I read at DU. I'm willing to bet that there aren't REAL DUers who DO support the NRA.

Forgive me for a badly written sentence. I'll edit.

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Reply #11)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:37 PM

15. Thank you. You have always struck me

as a gentleman and a clear communicator, the exact kind of person I would enjoy having a beer and a friendly argument with.

I apologize if my upset over today's tragedy caused me to phrase my own reply more harshly than I should have.

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Response to ThatPoetGuy (Reply #15)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:00 PM

27. No thanks or apology necessary.

We're all upset, as we should be. I actually cried today as I was doing my job when I heard just how bad this tragedy was.

My personal claim to being a "gentleman" extends no further than my unwillingness to let my wife touch a door handle, be it the passenger door of my truck or an entrance to whatever building we're entering. That and holding the door for whoever is entering behind us.

My ability to communicate my feelings is directly relatable to how much Wild Turkey I've imbibed, and goes down accordingly.

On this though, I'm willing to talk. I'm a gun owner; though I'm willing to talk about who should own guns and what kind of guns they should be allowed to own if any at all. Other gun owners might see this as a threat to their RKBA, and though I support that right, I am "evolving" just as President Obama "evolved" on his support of the right of gays to marry.

For the record, I've done a lot of "evolving" since my daughter came out a few years ago...

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:27 PM

13. I appreciate the post.

The way I see it, there are far too many guns already. Access is far too easy. I'd like to see limits on the number made. I'd like to see strict chains of custody, stronger laws on background checks, closure of the many loopholes.

I think cities, states and the feds should set up cash for guns programs to get more off the streets. I'd like to see strict limits on the types of guns permitted to be sold. And the number permitted owned.

I'd like to see greater liability for any gun owner that doesn't properly secure their gun and it is later used to kill.

I don't think anyone needs to be forced to turn in any guns owned currently, but I would like people to have to register all their firearms with local law enforcement.

Of course such reforms should be made along with greater access to mental health care. Better training and action plans for schools to recognize the tell-tale signs of teenagers and 20-somethings suffering from deep depression. Drugs should be legalized. The media culture of violence should be lessened. We need to look at the terribly violent video games, for example.

In full disclosure, I own a gun. But, I am going to be surrendering it to the police. It is not worth it to me to have it in the house anymore. I simply do not want to be part of this.

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Response to morningfog (Reply #13)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:37 PM

14. I agree with much of what you say. There are things you posted though that I think could never

be implemented. There is no way to put the culture of violence the media portrays back in the bag. It's here and First Amendment supporters will argue its merit just as strongly as those who support the Second Amendment.

I remember a day when violence in video games was a bone of contention, and how the argument was formed that they were "only" games. If I remember correctly, the "right" was the source of complaints in that regard, and the "left" supported the argument that it was "only a game". In retrospect, I think violent video games only cause a numbness to the real effect of said violence.

I don't have an argument against the registration of any and all guns, or the liability to gun owners in respect to what happens if their guns somehow wind up in the possession of those who would do harm to others.

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Reply #14)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:43 PM

19. Yeah, I don't have an answer on the video games.

I wish it would be done willingly by the producers of such, but they only think of the money. As long as there is a market for it, they will be sold.

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:41 PM

17. Why permit guns in the Ohio legislature's parking garage?

That's what the republicans in Ohio voted for. Why?

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Response to Kolesar (Reply #17)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:02 PM

28. I don't have an answer to that. It's the first I've ever heard of it.

At first blush, I'd wonder why the legislature's parking garage wasn't a secure place.

I'm a supporter of RKBA, and am open to discussion as to when and where. That's all I can offer...

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Reply #28)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:05 PM

29. How about permitting guns on school busses?

Gail Collins at NY Times picked up on that one. Why should that restriction be lifted?

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Response to Kolesar (Reply #29)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:14 PM

34. I'm getting the feeling you're playing "gotcha" with me.

I don't know who Gail Collins is, and have no idea what she proposes.

Guns on school buses? Nnnnnope. Not today, not tomorrow, not EVER. Not for any reason. For that matter, put metal detectors in school bus doors and make them double-entry like some pawn shops.

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Response to Kolesar (Reply #17)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:11 PM

33. To keep them out of the office building?

> Why permit guns in the Ohio legislature's parking garage?

While the garage and office building may be relatively secure, the trek to and from usually is not. Having a gun for protection is often about the journey not the destination.

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:42 PM

18. Rachel made the point that 74% of NRA MEMBERS actually believed that sales

of guns should be banned to those on the terrorist watch list, but God forbid the NRA leadership actually endorse this position.

Her point was, "Can't we at least try to push legislation that even the majority of NRA members support?"

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Response to bullwinkle428 (Reply #18)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:49 PM

22. You know who was against that proposal? The intelligence community.

Are you a terrorist who wants to know if the government knows about you? Go try to buy a gun. Rejected? Damn, they're on to me.

*edit: Much like those on the terrorist watch list aren't actually on the 'no-fly' list.

And that's setting aside the due process concerns.

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:46 PM

21. We shoud encourage our ederly family members and friends

to dispose of their weapons or give them to a responsible party.

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:50 PM

23. K and R, with thanks. n/t

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:56 PM

25. I have a question.

Would you support treating guns like cars?

To own a car you have to have it registered. To drive it you have to get a license, which means passing a test indicating you know what you're doing. When you sell it, you have to report the sale to the DMV (at least I think you do).

It seems to me that to fight a hypothetical oppressive government it'd be pretty important to have cars, but nobody seems to object to the way we regulate cars.

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Response to BlueCheese (Reply #25)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:10 PM

32. I have only one problem with your notion of treating guns like cars.

I don't want little gangstas studying to prove their proficiency with weapons to the government. I'd prefer they hold their semis palm down so as to look cool and miss their targets.

I'd like to see all weapons registered.

I didn't say I thought my government was oppresive. I stated my belief that a populace denied weapons by their government were subjects rather than citizens.

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Reply #32)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:25 PM

36. I'm not saying the government is currently oppressive, nor do I think that you think that.

I just meant that as I understand it, one of the main arguments for owning guns is to be able to fight back if the government one day turns oppressive. If that day comes, the citizen resistance will need cars as well as guns, I would think. But we're happy to have the ownership of cars regulated.

I think we can agree on registering guns. Thanks for starting the discussion.

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Response to BlueCheese (Reply #25)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:57 PM

41. I agree with treating like cars

Also, close the background check loopholes and include juvenile records for, say, 5 years into adulthood even if the records are still sealed to other inquiring eyes.

The "driving test" does not need to stress how well the applicant hits a target but can they handle the gun safely and keep it locked up when not in use.

The license should be renewed periodically where mental state is reviewed and another background check is completed to include police record and restraining orders.


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Response to BlueCheese (Reply #25)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:32 AM

52. I'd supported with one minor exception

a lot people are just collectors. So I'd exempt guns over a certain age, let's say 50 years old. This would only apply guns kept in, the home, otherwise wanted use it for hunting,etc you would need register it.

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:56 PM

26. My feeling about guns

They make me uncomfortable because all of the people who displayed them in my presence seemed menacing. Whether they were cavalier in their handling, or downright threatening. Even the cowboys who checked them in at the door made me feel unsafe.

Guns have never made me feel safer. I always breathed a sigh of relief when their owners removed them from my presence.

Time to talk about gun control. No more school shootings. No more massacres of kindergartners.

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Response to Generic Other (Reply #26)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:26 PM

37. No more massacres of ANY kind! EVER!

I can't imagine where you might have been that there might have been people displaying their guns in a menacing manner. I can only say that's not a place I'd want to be. I don't condone the cavalier handling of guns in ANY situation, and I'd certainly speak up if and when it happened.

Where might you have been where Cowboys "checked them in at the door"?

Guns in and of themselves do not make me feel safe.

We're talking about gun control, and for once, we're talking about it without insulting each other. I kinda like that.

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Reply #37)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:14 AM

43. By cowboys, I mean rough dudes my ex knew

Men who carried guns in holsters. One who unbuckled his and placed it on my TV set when he visited along with his cowboy hat. Others who just "played" with them in front of me. Or brought them out to show off when they had been drinking. I never felt comfortable confronting the behavior. Just nervous as hell until it stopped.

I don't trust people with guns even responsible ones because they seem to be accidents waiting to happen. My father once had a gun that he kept in the back of his VW bug. On the day he went to register me for my first day of school, he forgot and left me in the car with the gun. And yes, I took it out and examined it. That was the last time I ever saw it, but it was once too often in my opinion.

I knew more than one kid who shot himself. A neighbor too. One of my relatives who accidentally shot his wife in a cornfield while shooting crows. Guns have never been a positive part of my life.

I don't know what the answer is. And I agree we should be able to talk about it like adults.

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:27 PM

38. "I'm willing to talk. I'm willing to debate. I'm willing to work...." Are you "willing to" give up

guns?

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Response to WinkyDink (Reply #38)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:31 PM

39. I'm guessing you didn't read my whole post.

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Reply #39)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:47 PM

40. I'm guessing that your "Call someone nuts to have his home searched" is pretty Fascist.

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Response to WinkyDink (Reply #40)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:28 AM

45. And I'm guessing the words you put in QUOTES are words I never typed....

Oh wait. I don't have to guess; I know.

Why would you do that? Why would you attribute a quote to me that I never stated?

Curious, that.

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:58 PM

42. K&R

I feel the same way you do about this.

Good luck with DU today though. You'll be lucky to keep this thread open without being outright blamed for every single gunshot victim throughout history. Most are outright saying STFU and Fuck You to anyone who wants to actually talk about ways to stop some of this hideous violence.

I wish there was a way to ask why so many unstable people are targeting children without getting my head bitten off. Just because someone asks what is going on that is causing these hideous assholes to target children like this does not mean they do not support reasonable gun control laws. But, today on DU, forget it. You'll be blamed for every single death today and told you are a hideous right wing fascist child murderer.

It's a damn shame people are lashing out that way today. We need to support each other on DU instead of hating on each other. I can guaran-damn-tee everyone on DU is horrified by what these poor children and school staff had to endure today. I know I am horrified. School shootings always affect me deeply. I still cannot get the images from Columbine out of my head. I will forever be haunted by the teenaged guy covered in blood who was climbing out of what looked like a second story window during Columbine. I cannot fathom what kind of person could and/or would kill even 1 kindergartener, much less 20 of them. There is something seriously wrong with someone who could/would do that. I am horrified and traumatized and do not even have any friends or relatives involved in the shooting today. I would imagine I am not the only one who feels this way today. It is very frustrating to feel this way. Thank you for listening.

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:21 AM

44. Question for you

First of all, very good post and I appreciate your candor and your call for civility.

Second, if you don't mind my asking, what kind of gun do you own and what is it for? Are you a hunter, or do you feel that the gun keeps you safer?

My feeling is that at the very least, we should ban guns that able to shoot as many bullets in one round as the gun used today, without infringing on law-abiding citizens' rights to hunt or protect themselves. Is that a regulation you could support, or would you feel that such a regulation threatened your rights?

Again, I appreciate your candor, and am hoping you can help us understand the issue.

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Response to democrattotheend (Reply #44)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:53 AM

48. Most of the guns I own are hunting rifles.

I own a .30-06 bolt-action Browning, a 30-30 lever-action Winchester, a 20-guage shotgun, a 12-guage Benelli shotgun, a Colt M1911 single-action semi-automatic pistol and a Beretta 9mm. At one time I owned a Remington 7mm Magnum rifle but it was too much gun for me. Now it belongs to my cousin. All of my guns, save one, are locked in a gun case.

I have over the years hunted deer, elk, boar, grouse, pheasant, quail, duck, squirrel, and rabbit. I've never pointed my gun at a wild animal I didn't intend to eat and every animal I did shoot wound up feeding me, my family, or my friends.

The M1911 is an antique WWII pistol my Grandfather gave me and the 9mm (the only gun I've ever bought) is the gun I keep in the nightstand next to my bed. My wife keeps the clips for the 9mm in HER nightstand. Yes, it makes me feel like I could defend my house should the need ever arise.

I'm not sure I understand the context of your question about banning guns "able to shoot as many bullets in one round as the gun used today".

Bottom line for me: I really can't support the banning of guns of any type as much as I'd support laws meant to restrict who might possess them, but I'm willing to discuss any and all ideas short of the confiscation of all guns.

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Response to democrattotheend (Reply #44)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:48 AM

62. Guns like this

I don't really know my gun terminology, but I feel like guns like this should not be legal anywhere, except for military and police:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1979813

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:46 AM

46. There are a couple things

 

First, yes, there should be a major shift towards our mental condition in America.

Second, schools & colleges should have adequate security to prevent mass shootings.

Third, repeal all gun laws & restore the 2nd to its original intent.

Fourth, require all adults to have a gun.

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:48 AM

47. It's time for action, not debate.

Talks won't solve this problem. Only action will.

Remember the tweet of the day posted earlier:

"Today is not a good day to discuss gun control. YESTERDAY would have been better."

Today is the day for action!

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Response to ananda (Reply #47)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:59 AM

49. Action isn't an answer

 

It is not a time to let emotions lead a discussion. The time to talk about wars and rumors of wars is when you are not having one.

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:27 AM

50. Thank you for this thread!

I've been on DU a long time (longer than my post count would indicate), and I usually find it a great source of ideas, debate, inspiration, humor, and community. But unfortunately, after days like today, I am not only sad for the victims and their families, I am also sad that a group of intelligent people can't discuss something without it devolving into insults and attacks. I understand that there is anger and frustration that this has happened yet again--I share those feelings, but what good can come from calling me and every other gun owning member of DU every ugly name that comes to mind?
That's all I wanted to say...thank you again for this thread.

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:33 AM

53. To me self-defense is a reasonable perceived need

So what is reasonable for self-defense? It seems that what's available for purchase goes way beyond a sensible answer to that question.

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Response to BeyondGeography (Reply #53)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:39 AM

56. That is a good question

because the answer is not going to be universal. Is a rifle reasonable? A handgun? A concealable handgun? Is something that is reasonable for self defense for a man living in a rural area the same thing as something for a woman living in an urban area? I don't have any answers on this, but it does illustrate one of the many issues here.

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Response to Budgies Revenge (Reply #56)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:52 AM

58. I have a place in a rural area and there have been break-ins in some homes

One was foiled with a gun, which the owner only had to wave at these kids who were trying to rip him off, and they vanished. Most criminals are looking for empty homes and no resistance. The first sign of trouble and they move to another target. You really don't need an arsenal or a weapon that fires six rounds a second to get the job done. In fact, a barking dog will do the trick more often than not.

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Response to BeyondGeography (Reply #58)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:13 AM

60. I'm also in a rural area

I am single and live with my two dogs. The area I live in used to be more sketchy than it is currently--there was a large problem with drug manufacturing and dealing in this area, dog fighting rings, and a few murders. On more than one occasion, I called the police on my neighbors--and wouldn't you know it, the cops would drive up into MY yard and talk to me before going to the place I was calling about! So, I'll admit that I did worry about someone trying to do me harm--or harming my dogs (which unfortunately did happen). It is one of the reasons I own a handgun. I'm small, my house is cramped, and I don't hunt, so rifles and shotguns don't make much sense for me (although I inherited a rifle and a shotgun from my father).

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:35 AM

54. I can't right now. I can tell you how I'm feeling.. maybe.

I'm not a gun person but I don't judge people who are. Maybe I do, I don't know, but I can disagree and be civil. I think the loud voices, the extremists, drive the conversation and that dynamic doesn't accomplish anything.

I am not sure I can explain how I feel about guns. I totally understand that some people love guns, or like guns, or feel that guns are useful or necessary. I get that. To me, guns are scary, so I'm wary of them and people who are outspoken about them. It's like this: in physics, that ball at the top of an inclined plane or the wall of water behind a dam represents potential energy. It's only matter of time before that potential energy is released. A gun, to me, is like that. It is potential violence, and nothing else. What else is a gun for?

Right now, though, I can't debate in good faith. It's too raw and too soon. I can't say that I won't be blinded by strong feelings and lash out at the only opponent I can find. That shouldn't be you, because you didn't do anything to deserve it.

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:37 AM

55. I no longer own guns and am in the Brady camp now but certainly appreciate your post.

 

Any sanity expressed in fixing the terrible problem of random gun violence is a very welcome thing in my view.

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:48 AM

57. indeed. Good start.

Let's see where the thread goes from here...

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:58 AM

59. I do want to ask a question of anyone who cares to answer

I've often wondered about the geographic makeup of those on both sides of the issue. So my question is: What is your general position on guns and gun control, and where do you live. I'll start--I would have to agree with cherokeeprogressive's general position. I do own guns, I do not agree with the idea of banning guns, but I am willing to discuss any idea, excluding banning, to help prevent situations like what happened today. I live in a relatively rural area of Georgia.

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