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Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:38 PM

NRA: If only a teacher had had a gun ... Well, asswipes, one of the teachers had SEVERAL guns ...

Her son borrowed a couple of them, murdered her, and then proceeded to slaughter 20 innocent children and a few more teachers.
I own guns, FULLY support gun control and gun registration; and would no more belong to the NRA than I would to the Ku Klux Klan.

Take your skewed logic and shove it squarely up your ass.

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Reply NRA: If only a teacher had had a gun ... Well, asswipes, one of the teachers had SEVERAL guns ... (Original post)
11 Bravo Dec 2012 OP
TheCowsCameHome Dec 2012 #1
roguevalley Dec 2012 #17
madokie Dec 2012 #26
tblue Dec 2012 #41
ladyayache Dec 2012 #2
pop topcan Dec 2012 #3
DainBramaged Dec 2012 #10
caseymoz Dec 2012 #13
ComplimentarySwine Dec 2012 #20
caseymoz Dec 2012 #29
ComplimentarySwine Dec 2012 #49
caseymoz Dec 2012 #54
ComplimentarySwine Dec 2012 #78
caseymoz Dec 2012 #82
pop topcan Dec 2012 #85
lark Dec 2012 #62
pop topcan Dec 2012 #75
lark Jan 2013 #87
ComplimentarySwine Dec 2012 #76
Gore1FL Dec 2012 #30
saidsimplesimon Dec 2012 #59
Hoosier Dec 2012 #15
Zoeisright Dec 2012 #19
tiny elvis Dec 2012 #16
roguevalley Dec 2012 #18
CitizenPatriot Dec 2012 #25
pop topcan Dec 2012 #70
CitizenPatriot Dec 2012 #83
pop topcan Dec 2012 #84
CitizenPatriot Dec 2012 #86
we can do it Dec 2012 #77
Skittles Dec 2012 #4
Logical Dec 2012 #5
robinlynne Dec 2012 #6
madashelltoo Dec 2012 #7
WilliamPitt Dec 2012 #8
mojowork_n Dec 2012 #9
cliffordu Dec 2012 #11
former9thward Dec 2012 #12
They_Live Dec 2012 #22
NoMoreWarNow Dec 2012 #40
lbrtbell Dec 2012 #14
brentspeak Dec 2012 #21
StarryNite Dec 2012 #24
Silver Gaia Dec 2012 #33
lunasun Dec 2012 #37
JimDandy Dec 2012 #27
Ikonoklast Dec 2012 #51
Squinch Dec 2012 #55
RetroLounge Dec 2012 #58
pop topcan Dec 2012 #73
geckosfeet Dec 2012 #23
oldbanjo Dec 2012 #28
geckosfeet Dec 2012 #42
ProgressiveProfessor Dec 2012 #48
AAO Dec 2012 #31
WorseBeforeBetter Dec 2012 #47
AAO Dec 2012 #69
bklyncowgirl Dec 2012 #32
underthematrix Dec 2012 #34
Taverner Dec 2012 #35
Iris Dec 2012 #36
lunasun Dec 2012 #38
ReRe Dec 2012 #39
BainsBane Dec 2012 #43
John2 Dec 2012 #44
SunSeeker Dec 2012 #45
davidpdx Dec 2012 #46
TexasBushwhacker Dec 2012 #50
davidpdx Dec 2012 #63
lupinella Dec 2012 #52
Teamster Jeff Dec 2012 #53
supercats Dec 2012 #56
NRA_SUCKS Dec 2012 #57
senseandsensibility Dec 2012 #60
krispos42 Dec 2012 #61
fightthegoodfightnow Dec 2012 #68
krispos42 Dec 2012 #74
fightthegoodfightnow Dec 2012 #79
krispos42 Dec 2012 #80
fightthegoodfightnow Dec 2012 #81
GatorLarry Dec 2012 #64
ElbarDee Dec 2012 #65
burpfire Dec 2012 #66
xoom Dec 2012 #67
Bluegene Dec 2012 #71
Bluegene Dec 2012 #72

Response to 11 Bravo (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:40 PM

1. Excellent point.

Your move, assholes...................

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Response to TheCowsCameHome (Reply #1)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:47 PM

17. as a teacher I am behind the op one trillion percent.

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Response to roguevalley (Reply #17)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:12 PM

26. As a caring person I'm with you 100%

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Response to madokie (Reply #26)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:22 PM

41. As both, damn straight!

Oh. I am just so sad.

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Response to 11 Bravo (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:52 PM

2. BRAVO

Well said my fellow citizen
Well said

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Response to 11 Bravo (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:53 PM

3. Have you registered your guns? Where I live there is no mechanism for doing that.

 

I don't think blaming the NRA for the actions of a crazy fuckwad is very productive or intelligent, though.

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Response to pop topcan (Reply #3)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:24 PM

10. Tell that to their parents

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Response to pop topcan (Reply #3)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:41 PM

13. He was blaming them for shockingly stupid arguments . . .

. . . not for the actions of a crazy fuckwad. He makes a great point: I haven't heard of any of these shootings being thwarted by a law abiding gun owner with his or her legally carried and concealed equalizer, yet. In fact, the point the OP makes is that legal gun ownership seemed to have made things considerably worse. Considerably.

It seems that with all the crimes purportedly thwarted by guns every year, and so many people owning guns, thwarting one of these never seems to happen.

And I must ask, since knives are just as good, as pro-gunners say, why the killer didn't bring his Mom's butcher block instead? And why is it the guy who tries to rob the gun store with a knife is such a funny story?

BTW, I'll bring into question another myth: it seems that for protecting our freedom against a tyrannical government, the Egyptians, the Libyans, the Tunisians and soon the Syrians have shown it doesn't take a citizenry armed to the teeth to overthrow a tyranny. Egypt, Libya and Syria were some of the worst tyrannies in the world. In fact, in Libya having so many people armed now is actually impeding the process of putting a good government in place.

What? The Founders of our nation might be wrong about something? See slavery for the precedent.

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Response to caseymoz (Reply #13)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:52 PM

20. Do you wonder why?

 

When was the last mass shooting that didn't take place in a "gun free" zone such as a school or a movie theatre that banned guns?

If the government can't keep drugs out of prisons, I don't have much faith that they can keep guns out of the hands of crazy people. Banning alcohol didn't work, banning weed didn't work, and banning guns isn't likely to work either in my opinion.

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Response to ComplimentarySwine (Reply #20)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:20 PM

29. And I wasn't even discussing solutions.

Are you saying that the legal conceal carry contingent are so discouraged about carrying guns in free zones that they follow the law to the T? Do you also mean that they're so scared about getting caught with their piece in these no-gun zones there that they're reluctant to save their lives and other people's lives?

You just said those zones do nothing of the sort, so I think not. You can't say both and be serious.

Second, I didn't even mention solutions? No, I didn't. So what you said was irrelevant, a complete straw man. Argue against what I said, not what you think I'm saying.

Why don't you make a proposal that will work? In fact, it's in your interests to do that, because the public opinion always turns rather decisively toward the safety of children. Parents get irrational when they perceive their children are threatened, and if these shootings keep up, they're not going to care soon what the Constitution says about it. If things continue, within a decade, the remaining progunners are going to have a solution imposed on them whether it works or not. Has the War on Drugs worked yet? Has it been repealed yet? How do you like that idea?

By the way, the stats are in. The states with gun control laws do have a lower rate of gun deaths. This is indicative, not proof, but it looks exclusionary zones do work, just not perfectly.



http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/12/14/nine-facts-about-guns-and-mass-shootings-in-the-united-states/

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Response to caseymoz (Reply #29)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:21 PM

49. "Gun Free" Zones

 

Are you saying that the legal conceal carry contingent are so discouraged about carrying guns in free zones that they follow the law to the T? Do you also mean that they're so scared about getting caught with their piece in these no-gun zones there that they're reluctant to save their lives and other people's lives?

You just said those zones do nothing of the sort, so I think not. You can't say both and be serious.


I can only speak for myself, but as someone with a concealed carry license I am afraid to carry a gun on school grounds because I don't want to be convicted of a felony. Because of issues such as this, I often find myself without my gun.

I imagine that if one is intent on murdering a room full of children and then taking their own life, they probably aren't as concerned with going to jail and losing their rights as I am.

In effect, the only thing that these "gun free" zones do is to make an environment that helps ensure that the only people in that area with guns are the people who have nothing to lose and are intent on doing harm. I thought that my solution to this issue was clear, but let me explain. My solution is to make it legal for school administrators, teachers, and other responsible adults to protect the children in their care. This includes allowing them to choose a firearm as part of their protection plan.

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Response to ComplimentarySwine (Reply #49)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:58 AM

54. You anticipate being stopped and arrested?

Gun-free zones are more adapted to preventing a certain type of shooting in certain places. That is, the most common one where an argument escalates, ones that can take place between two or more otherwise law-abiding people having a bad moment together. So, they were conceived without the idea of preventing this problem. In fact, they were mostly enacted before anybody knew the spree killing was going to be so much of a problem, before our 2nd Amendment rights were so secure.

Now, speaking from my experience, if I have an encounter with the police once in three years, it's unusual. It's been three years now. I've never been searched in my life. I've never been stopped at a school or other gun-free place. I know a lot of it is luck, but I'm well into middle-age and have had no reason to anticipate police would search me if I walked into a school. If you're law-abiding, why would you anticipate a search? Just saying, why is your perspective more legitimate than mine?

I know a few pro-gunners who aren't as law-abiding, or fearful. They're the sorts of people who carry defaced guns, shoot the bad guy who gives them trouble, and drop the untraceable weapon at the scene. One of them has a 2nd Amendment website and everything. He complains about regulations he flouts.

Your position is to arm teachers and administrators. Tell me, if it's implemented, what would you accept as disproof of this position? Would you be willing to accept the risk that students get a hold of those guns, and use them because teachers and administrators do not properly secure them, or lose them, or have them taken away by students because the pupils will know they are carrying them? While you're accepting that risk, would you accept the risk that it might not stop any incident like this, or might cause collateral damage as people get caught in the crossfire?

What makes you think teachers and administrators will appreciate this responsibility? I'm stereotyping a little, but teachers and administrators do not strike me as people who take to gun training easily. At the very least, you're dictating to them that they do something that's not in their job description, and shouldn't be. You're not asking them about it. These might not be the best people to entrust with that responsibility. And if you make it voluntary, and you seem to imply it would be, what if nobody takes it up?

Many of these incidents have taken place outside gun free zones. Nobody stopped the Aurora shooter, and there were hundreds of people in that theater. Nobody stopped Jared Loughner, and that was in a state practically know for gun-slinging. There were hundreds of people there, one of them bound to be armed, and it wasn't a gun free zone.

Moreover, you're saying that children have to be kept under armed guard because you have to have a gun, an implement that doesn't protect you. Statistically speaking, it doesn't. Owning a handgun makes it five more times as likely that you'll die of a gunshot wound. That's truth about a gun's effectiveness in protecting you.

Since Seung-Hui Cho, Jared Loughner, James Holmes and now this guy all had severe mental illnesses, there appears to be a strong pattern. These are mostly not hateful discontents committing these acts. These are people with classic mental illness symptoms. Therefore, if you can have better mental health care and intervention-- and make sure these people aren't in an environment that makes it easy to get a hold of guns and ammunition when they're delusional-- that should reduce the incidence of these a lot. Don't say it fails because it doesn't get rid of spree shootings completely.

Believe me, though if the pro-gun people don't think of some solution, they are set to lose, and lose big. Attempts to defend gun rights by using the old stupid arguments, or coming up with dumber ones like the schools had it coming for being godless is just going to sink them further.

And to say nothing will work isn't going to help them either.

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Response to caseymoz (Reply #54)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:37 PM

78. It's not that I anticipate being stopped and searched

 

but, I also try to avoid committing felonies even if I'm not likely to be caught. All it takes is one twist of your shirt to allow the gun to print through and alarm someone who will call the police and report a man with a gun.

The simple fact of the matter is that the US has tried bans over and over again and they simply don't work. Marijuana is still readily accessible in spite of being banned for decades. The government can't even keep weapons and drugs out of our prison system, how do you actually expect them to get them out of the hands of the citizenry? The cat is out of the bag, this country is filled with guns, and I really don't think there is any reasonable way to change that in the next several decades. Instead of hoping for an unrealistic fantasy, it's time to look to practical solutions that can be implemented quickly.

After 9/11, we reinforced planes and armed pilots. When you go into a courthouse, there are armed guards. Jewelry stores have guards, banks have guards, but all we give our children is a sign that says "No Guns Allowed?" It's time to start protecting our children like we mean it and not just hoping for an unrealistic end to something of which we have no real control over.

Why do you suppose these type of things happen so frequently at schools? With regards to the Aurora theatre masacre, it is my understanding that that building was also a "gun free" zone. However, it seems like mass shootings at firing ranges or gun stores are very, very rare. Do you wonder why?

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Response to ComplimentarySwine (Reply #78)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 03:02 AM

82. About bans . . .

It seems that states that have the most gun regulations tend to be the ones with the lowest gun death rates. Now, it isn't proof, but it is indicative.

Who's arguing for bans? I'm saying you're looking at having a ban imposed whether it works or not. See the War on Drugs for an example. Parents tend to get hysterical when their children are threatened, and when it's happened, the measures taken have not been the most rational. Really, if spree shootings like this keep happening, especially in schools, it won't matter when you point out bans don't work. Also, if the War on Drugs is an example, telling people the ban doesn't work doesn't get rid of the ban. So, you better think of a way to spare yourself from having one.

About your example of armed groups, first, 9/11 notwithstanding, how common were skyjackings and such crimes before we armed pilots? What are the crime statistics there since? And don't we screen baggage and passengers to extremely minimize weapons being brought on a plane? Is the pilot being armed the first line of defense?

You're comparing apples to oranges with your other example. First, nobody is really going to care if jewelry or money is caught in cross fire, unlike we would in, say, children in a school. Arming employees has a completely different risk assessment.

Moreover, the armed guards are in those places to stop, or discourage a completely different class of crimes: theft. You could discourage a thief by threatening his life. However, how well did our armed troops do in Iraq against suicide bombers and IED's? If somebody is trying to kill as many people as possible, they wouldn't go to a jewelry store. They wouldn't go to a bank. The risk/award assessment they're doing is totally different than what a thief will do.

And I'll remind you: banks and jewelry stores still get robbed. The guns don't always protect against the crime they're supposed to prevent. There have been exchanges of gunfire there, even though thieves are less likely than suicidal killers to risk their lives. So, I could argue, with progunner absurdity, that having guns in those places really doesn't "work" since it isn't perfect.

We'd have to know more about the minds of spree killers to find out how they make choices of where to shoot, but I'm presuming that if they thought they could do enough damage before they're brought down by shooting up a bank as they would a school, they would choose the bank. Judging by their suicide rate, it's not the fear of getting shot that keeps them from shooting up banks instead. It's the "lower success rate."

You've really convinced yourself that arming teachers and doing away with gun free zones is going to fix the problem.

I'll ask you again: say it's adopted. What would you have to see before you'd believe it's a failure? Kids getting shot because teachers had the gun taken away from them? Teachers having gun accidents that wound themselves or the students? Teachers using their guns on students (because kids can get maddening) or parents, or perhaps even going on shooting sprees? Because we do underpay them and demand more of them. What if it doesn't thwart any shootings even though everything above happens? Then would you be able to say you're wrong?

You're presuming that there's an inner Clint Eastwood that we just need to release here. (And it has to be government that's in his way.) You're thinking that guns are so effective at thwarting crime, that there must be something stopping it from happening, like the gun-free school zone. I'm sorry, anyone with the balls to go for a gun and return fire in a shooting spree would have the cajones to carry a piece into a gun free zone with impunity (and as you said, bans don't work, so we should presume this happens all the time.) When you tell me you don't carry a pistol into a gun free zone, though children need to be protected, you're pretty much telling me you won't return fire, which carries far more risk. No wonder none of these have been thwarted.

The problem is not that we haven't released the inner Clint Eastwood. The problem is he's a myth, or he's too damn rare. The actual statistics on the number of crimes of all sorts thwarted by an armed victim or bystander is far lower what the pro-gunners believe. It doesn't happen that often. This fact of human psychology is not going to be fixed by arming teachers or doing away with gun free zones. Period.

Really, knowing the teachers I do, and knowing the stress they're under, and the poor pay, I anticipate that if they're expected to arm themselves, for many, that would be the last straw. They would get out of their profession. Therefore, what you're going to have to replace them with is a person who can't teach but can swagger and carry a gun, and they're willing to be violent. If that happened, would you change your mind? Or, like the War on Drugs, will you still stick the rest of us with your solution?

Really, I want to hear it. What negative developments would tell you your policy proposal is a failure? And do they match any examples I've given?

My next question is, why can I imagine all these things going wrong while you can't? It seems to me that if the Apollo Project calculated risk and came up with schemes to fix technically unfeasible claims the way you do, it would be a hoax.

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Response to ComplimentarySwine (Reply #78)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 08:53 PM

85. How dare you attempt to derail a perfectly good rant with rational facts?

 

Are you some sort of subversive?

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Response to ComplimentarySwine (Reply #49)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:17 PM

62. So, you think the children would have been safer in a war zone

where everyone's firing guns, hyped up, scared, and not really thinking straight? I think that would mean even more dead, but keep on talking up those NRA memes. That's been so helpful and stopped so many mass killings - NEVER.

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Response to lark (Reply #62)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 07:49 PM

75. I would like to propose a very simple hypothetical to you. It's not at all difficult to think about

 

Your 7 year old daughter is in a school much like the one in this tragic story. A madman very much like the one in this tragic story is about to bypass security and enter the school intending to kill as many children as he can. Which of the following would you truthfully prefer:

a) Her teacher has gotten firearm training and has a gun either on her person or in an accessible but reasonably secure location

or

b) Her teacher has no defensive tools except her own person skills and some desks to hide behind

It really is a simple choice, I know which one *I* would pick.

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Response to pop topcan (Reply #75)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 12:37 PM

87. Her teacher would be as likely to kill other children

as the shooter, so NO I absolutely do not want my children going into armed warfare. Collateral damage kills just as much as intentional shooting. Not one mass massacre has ever been stopped by an armed "good" gunman - none. More guns = more killing.

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Response to lark (Reply #62)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:25 PM

76. What war zone?

 

History seems to indicate that cowards who are aiming to kill defenseless victims aren't likely to go anywhere near where they think they will be stopped by credible resistance.

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Response to ComplimentarySwine (Reply #20)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:35 PM

30. There are a few on this list

http://www.epicdisasters.com/index.php/site/comments/worst_us_spree_killings/

I am not calling for a ban on guns, myself. I do believe in the words "well regulated."

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Response to ComplimentarySwine (Reply #20)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:24 PM

59. So, you support ownership of assault weapons? It is not working.

Many states have now legislated conceal/carry at colleges and other public institutions. They did this without any consideration for a mental health background check. It's a sign of a society in decline. imho

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Response to pop topcan (Reply #3)


Response to Hoosier (Reply #15)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:48 PM

19. Ditto, freak.

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Response to pop topcan (Reply #3)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:47 PM

16. first rule of fight club

many cruel people pretend to be the reasonable one as they make everyone around them crazy

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Response to pop topcan (Reply #3)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:48 PM

18. The NRA are against any gun laws so fuck the NRA. They are the problem.

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Response to pop topcan (Reply #3)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:11 PM

25. If it wasn't for the NRA"s hold on our legislators

we could have had reasonable discussions about gun laws and might have outlawed automatic weapons.

So, the OP's anger at the NRA is right on. The NRA has destroyed this country's ability to have a discussion. There is no moderation with them. They lie and fear-monger until they get their followers in a tizzy and scare the legislators, including Democrats who are afraid of the big ad money the NRA can aim at them, to fail their responsibility to the citizens of this country.

The NRA is AT FAULT HERE. I'd like to see them sued for it, in fact.

The individual is also at fault, but he is dead. we can't do anything about him now. We CAN do something about the NRA.

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Response to CitizenPatriot (Reply #25)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 07:25 PM

70. Except for a bizarre bank robbery attempt in LACA, no automatic weapons have been used in any crime

 

in the last 50 years or so. Perhaps you can organize a class-action lawsuit against them since you appear to be already heavily and emotionally invested in hatred for them...?


Do you seriously suppose that gun crime would never have occurred had there been no NRA? I'm sorry but that's just a completely nutz idea...

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Response to pop topcan (Reply #70)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 08:28 AM

83. hahaha

Yeah, it's "nutz" to blame the NRA. It's not like they aren't a huge lobbying group that throws money at all of the elected officials in order to buy or intimidate them with negative and false advertising. Get a clue.

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Response to CitizenPatriot (Reply #83)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 08:52 PM

84. So all you have is more ad hominems? Okay...

 


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Response to pop topcan (Reply #3)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:26 PM

77. FUCK the NRA

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Response to 11 Bravo (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:54 PM

4. LOVE YOU 11 BRAVO

you show how a NON-COWARD does it

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Response to 11 Bravo (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:59 PM

5. I also hate the NRA, especially the Ted Nugent member of their board....

I have no issue with registration, only paranoid people are, but still, do not see how gun registration would have helped in this case.

Mom could of have registered them and the kid still could have took them.

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Response to 11 Bravo (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:08 PM

6. Thank-you. Today is the first time I see wise gun owners speaking up on DU.

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Response to 11 Bravo (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:20 PM

7. Ditto!

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Response to 11 Bravo (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:21 PM

8. THIS.

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Response to 11 Bravo (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:23 PM

9. Well said, if only major media could echo it. eom.

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Response to 11 Bravo (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:38 PM

11. Most Excellent.

Well done. I'd have missed it.


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Response to 11 Bravo (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:40 PM

12. She was not a teacher.

It is believed she was a volunteer at the school at some time in the past but not presently. She was not at the school.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #12)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:59 PM

22. wait, what?

so the earlier report was wrong?

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Response to 11 Bravo (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:45 PM

14. She had no guns AT SCHOOL

Which is what the NRA's talking about--having a gun on the scene, ready for self-defense. I don't like the NRA, but taking their words this far out of context is the kind of things Republicans do to us. It's wrong, no matter who's doing it.

Can we please stop arguing over guns and get to the real issue of helping the mentally ill before they snap?

Because if they didn't have guns, they'd just go online and learn how to make flamethrowers or bombs instead.

IT'S THE HEALTH CARE CRISIS. PERIOD.

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Response to lbrtbell (Reply #14)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:57 PM

21. "Can we please stop arguing over guns...?"

"...and get to the real issue of helping the mentally ill before they snap?"

The Aurora, CO shooter was receiving mental health treatment at the time of his massacre.

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Response to brentspeak (Reply #21)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:03 PM

24. On prescription drugs?

I'm waiting to see if this guy was on prescription drugs and what the drugs and possible side effects were if he indeed was on them.

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Response to StarryNite (Reply #24)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:53 PM

33. Agreed. n/t

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Response to StarryNite (Reply #24)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:04 PM

37. Suicidal tendencies and violent, destructive thoughts are behavioral

side effects of mind-altering prescription medications.
Nearly every mass shooting that has taken place in America over the last two decades has a link to psychiatric medication

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Response to brentspeak (Reply #21)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:12 PM

27. You beat me to it.

"It's the guns, stupid!" while crude, is really an apropo sentiment.

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Response to lbrtbell (Reply #14)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:38 PM

51. Of course you don't want to talk about guns.

The first thing the NRA bloggers are told to do when a disaster of this type happens is "Change the subject".

Good thing you're not one of them.

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Response to lbrtbell (Reply #14)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:29 PM

55. NO, we CAN'T stop arguing over guns!! GUNS just killed a bunch of children!!

NO it isn't the health crisis. IT'S GUNS!!!!!!!

Try and deflect all you want from this. After all your deflecting IT'S STILL GOING TO BE GUNS!!!

"She had no guns in school." Yes she did. Her son brought her guns to her.

Is there NO END to the stupidity of the spin on this.

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Response to lbrtbell (Reply #14)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:54 PM

58. "It's the guns, stupid"

Nice deflection.

The NRA bloggers all do that too.

Hmmm.

RL

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Response to lbrtbell (Reply #14)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 07:32 PM

73. But it's impossible to commit mass murder without guns. Uh, Timothy (cough) McVeigh (cough)

 


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Response to 11 Bravo (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:01 PM

23. Needless to say the teachers guns should have locked up and inaccessible.

That said, I would never willingly join the NRA in its present condition. It is truly the home of the rabid gun nut.

And to have to be armed in this country because we expect, fucking EXPECT armed intruders is insane. These nut balls have been putting on vests of late. A teacher with a handgun acting alone is not going to be effective in stopping someone like this.

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Response to geckosfeet (Reply #23)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:16 PM

28. The economy is bad, the stealing is bad

and I had a neighbor cooking meth and the law did nothing, my neighbor is a cop, they also were selling drugs. I keep an assault rifle ready at all times, a 762x39 not a .223.

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Response to oldbanjo (Reply #28)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:25 PM

42. You are there and it is presumably under your control.

And your point is?

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Response to geckosfeet (Reply #23)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:53 PM

48. I am interested to see that kind of detail too

The firearms currently identified are those of a shooting enthusiast and not inexpensive. No idea how they were stored, what else was there, and why she had them. I have seen where she was divorced and a teacher/teachers aide (seen both) salary would not support those kind of high end weapon purchases.

Finally as a parent I was amazed to learn just how many of our secrets our daughters knew growing up, including where the back up combo to the safe was stored.

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Response to 11 Bravo (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:37 PM

31. 11 BRAVO, 12 BRAVO.... BRAVO!!!

 

And first he killed his father. What the hell?

BTW: I have never owned a firearm, and I continue to be concerned that I will feel the need to get one some day. I don't judge gun owners, nor do I expect them to judge my hobbies. But all of us need to get together to discuss the realities of our gun culture and the escalating senseless carnage we witness way too often.

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Response to AAO (Reply #31)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:45 PM

47. According to 20/20, the father is an attorney and being questioned by police...

along with his brother.

Way too much misinformation flying around...

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Response to WorseBeforeBetter (Reply #47)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 07:24 PM

69. Yeah, i finally figured it all out. Thanks for correcting.

 

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Response to 11 Bravo (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:51 PM

32. and maybe they should have issued tiny little guns to those poor kindergarten children.

I for one do not want to live in an armed camp.

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Response to 11 Bravo (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:54 PM

34. best post evar!! thank you!!

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Response to 11 Bravo (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:56 PM

35. EXACTLY

 

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Response to 11 Bravo (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:57 PM

36. Today is the day I decided I'm just not going to listen to this crap anymore.

I actually replied to a friend's FB post b/c I'm SICK of this issue getting swept under the rug.

The argument the friend of a friend made was we don't need gun control, we need to make prisons a living hell.

WTF? How will that help?

And this was in response to my pointing out that there have been SEVEN massacres like this in 2012. SEVEN!!!!!!

And guess what? Prison won't mean a damn thing to at least 6 of the 7 BECAUSE THEY ARE ALSO DEAD!!!!!!

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Response to 11 Bravo (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:07 PM

38. If only a teacher had had a gun < Had to hear that shit in business setting today


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Response to 11 Bravo (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:09 PM

39. Hear! Hear!

Spoken like a true, blue, DU-
er!

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Response to 11 Bravo (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:35 PM

43. Arm the kindergardeners.

Have some sense. Our children need to be able to protect themselves.

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Response to 11 Bravo (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:35 PM

44. I have

 

never needed a gun since I been out of the military. I guess, that I'm rare or something? The crime rate must be pretty high in that small town, this lady needed two guns and 200 rounds of ammo? She must have been in a War zone? I wonder if she was also a member of the NRA?

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Response to 11 Bravo (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:37 PM

45. For our own safety, we DON'T keep a gun in the house.

Even if we didn't have a nine year old child, we would still not own a gun. You are way more likely to shoot your own fool self with it, or worse, a child in the house gets a hold of it.

You're 43 times more likely to be killed by your own gun than by an intruder's. You are unlikely to have an intruder. But you are very likely to get drunk, get depressed, get in a fight with someone in your house, or have your kid find your gun. That's how people get killed. Having a gun in the house makes it far more likely that you'll get your own fool head blown off.

That's why it is so crazy to suggest you should buy a gun for your own protection. I would imagine this woman knew her son had mental issues. Ironically, maybe she thought those guns would protect her from him.

http://theincidentaleconomist.com/wordpress/more-guns-more-suicides/





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Response to 11 Bravo (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:37 PM

46. I remember a few years ago in Oregon a teacher tried to justify bring his gun to school

I don't know the guy's name, but I know what city it happened in. I believe he lost his challenge on that one.

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Response to davidpdx (Reply #46)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:31 PM

50. That's so stupid. In a situation like today, the teacher is the first one they would shoot n/t

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Response to TexasBushwhacker (Reply #50)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 06:26 PM

63. plus it could cause more deaths

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Response to 11 Bravo (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:40 PM

52. K&R n/t

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Response to 11 Bravo (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:52 PM

53. K&R

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Response to 11 Bravo (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:50 PM

56. Ban All Guns

All guns should be banned in the USA!!! Obama needs to stand up to the NRA and change the 2nd amendment. This horrific incident should never happen again. The only people that should legally have guns are the police. Period. End of story...

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Response to supercats (Reply #56)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:52 PM

57. No, that's too extreme and simple minded...

 

I live in the mid west where hunting still goes on, and is in fact needed.
Because humans have destroyed so many natural predators, the deer hunts are needed to keep the populations under control for both OUR and THEIR sakes.

IMHO we need to go back to the old brady bills. They worked to an extent.
The assault weapons' ban, which included a limit on magazine size.
those all worked very well when enforced.

.38 specials have always been illegal, and i've never understood the NEED for anything military to be fully operational.
I fired a SCAR-L at the local gun shop. It was fun, nice, accurate, etc, and limited to one bullet per pull.
The magazine was 20 rounds. But what more do I need to hunt Deer or wolves with (yes there's a fucking wolf hunt now that the population has BARELY crosses the non-endangered threshold).

I think that we go back to the original laws. We close the gunshow / craigs list loop holes and go from there.
It also doesn't hurt to put a bunch of money into mental health care and work to stop making it sound like such a fucking weakness to NEED to talk to someone.

No, a complete ban won't work for many reasons. But reasonable bans will.

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Response to 11 Bravo (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:49 PM

60. She was not a teacher.

Will this rumor, which is exactly what it was, ever die?

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Response to 11 Bravo (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:24 PM

61. This concept was void when it was posted in the Gungeon

And it's equally void here.

More teachers than her had guns; and...?

They also all had cars; why didn't they just drive to safety?

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Response to krispos42 (Reply #61)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 07:05 PM

68. You Are Missing The Point

We are constantly told by gun enthusiasts that if only teachers had guns this would not happen. In fact, I know of one DU troll whose membership was revoked because he provocatively said gun control advocates had blood on our hands for not allowing guns on schools.

Well, THAT caused this tradgedy which is his point.

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Response to fightthegoodfightnow (Reply #68)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 07:41 PM

74. You can't be serious.

No teacher at the school was armed, as gun control people wanted.

A person (a teacher, but that is irrelevant to the point I'm making) was murdered in her home for her guns, which were then used in the slaughter.

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Response to krispos42 (Reply #74)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:50 PM

79. Huh?

You write: No teacher at the school was armed, as gun control people wanted.

Huh? 'We, want what? I don't want any such thing.

Fact is that this teacher no more secured her guns at her home than she would at a school where so many of the gun enthusiasts are now demanding an end to gun free zones in schools.

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Response to fightthegoodfightnow (Reply #79)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 12:04 AM

80. Pro-gun-control people generally do not want teachers at school armed.

The teachers and staff at the school were not armed. Ergo...


Teachers at school would carry their guns on them, concealed, in some sort of holster. Not left in a closet or in a gun safe or desk drawer.

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Response to krispos42 (Reply #80)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 12:09 AM

81. Proper Gun Handlimg

And we've seen so much evidence of people handling guns properly lately.


Let's make a bad situation worse.

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Response to 11 Bravo (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 06:30 PM

64. Right!

I started getting mass e-mails from some of my right-wing a-hole "friends" within hours of this tragedy.

I replied to them all with basically what the OP wrote.

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Response to 11 Bravo (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 06:34 PM

65. She wasn't a teacher. nt

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Response to 11 Bravo (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 06:55 PM

67. Im sure her son really asked to "borrow" her guns before he killed her. Wow.

 

Your logic doent make much sence

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