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Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:47 PM

This Gun-Nut has had enough.

Last edited Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:27 PM - Edit history (1)

I own a few firearms. I enjoy shooting sports. I support the 2nd Amendment, just as I support the entire Bill of Rights. Without all of the Amendments, I could not vote, I would have a hard time finding a job, hell... I'd probably be picking cotton at Rush Limbaugh's house.

But with every right there are limits. Today was not the tipping point in my views, but it was the tipping point for me to speak my mind. I am a former NRA member. I enjoyed the gun safety classes, training classes and the range officer program that they have. Not too long ago, however they started inundating me with transparent lies. Their magazine used to be full of shooting tips, advice on safety and general information. Now every edition of American Rifleman looks like a fucking GOP talking point flier. They used to be about firearms and shooting sports, but as of late it is nothing but them trying to shove every right-wing dip-shit lie into every page. My wife and I both let our memberships lapse.

I'll fully admit that one of my two favorite forums here on DU is the Gun Control & RKBA. The other is Cooking and Baking (if you believe that). But as of perhaps the past year or so, my posts in the gun group have been mostly snark and humor as to me it seems to be a little too right-wing down there. Back when I first joined DU, the dialog was different, there were a lot more ideas to float around and discuss, but lately it is just a bunch of bullshit on both sides of the fence.

What happened today was and absolute horror, that I feel could have been prevented. I do not have all of the answers, but they are out there. We just have to work to find them.

As a country we NEED to have the discussion, we NEED to find workable solutions. Knee jerk solutions rarely work, but we should not let it slip by yet again. It would be an insult to the victims of this tragedy and all of the tragedies preceding it.

If in the end it makes it harder for me to buy a gun. So fucking what? I can live with that much easier than I can live with the fact that some nut job strolled into a gun shop and walked out with a gun 10 minutes later.

I'd beg our president to get all the players involved, be they victims, gun right supporters(not the NRA... They can go fuck themselves), doctors, gun control supporters, psychiatrists, house and senate members, and lock them all up in a room until they could come up with a solution to this problem.

Some of my fellow gun-nuts will have a problem with this. They'll say that the odds of being killed in a mass shooting are more rare than winning the lottery or getting struck by lightning. This may be true, hell, I've probably said it in the past myself. But right now, I don't give a fuck. Because what happened today is a rare event (when looking at violent crime as a whole), but its effect on the American people is too devastating to ignore.

What happened today is not an acceptable byproduct of our rights.

In case you haven't noticed my thoughts are all over the place, as I cannot think straight. I'm still deeply saddened and completely angry right now. But if I had one wish for the future, is that our leadership actually have the balls to have the discussion, and not tip-toe around the NRA. I know that there has to be a solution that will work, but it will never be found if there is no discussion.

Part 2 can be found here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021990149

168 replies, 15213 views

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Arrow 168 replies Author Time Post
Reply This Gun-Nut has had enough. (Original post)
Glassunion Dec 2012 OP
NightWatcher Dec 2012 #1
roguevalley Dec 2012 #63
shintao Dec 2012 #104
Carolina Dec 2012 #110
saidsimplesimon Dec 2012 #144
Carolina Dec 2012 #149
renie408 Dec 2012 #154
mwb970 Dec 2012 #162
Heather MC Dec 2012 #125
durablend Dec 2012 #131
mike_c Dec 2012 #141
renie408 Dec 2012 #155
xxqqqzme Dec 2012 #157
Paladin Dec 2012 #2
loyalkydem Dec 2012 #3
FightingIrish Dec 2012 #4
pasto76 Dec 2012 #31
tiny elvis Dec 2012 #53
rateyes Dec 2012 #109
defacto7 Dec 2012 #142
OneGrassRoot Dec 2012 #5
nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 #6
Glassunion Dec 2012 #10
nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 #12
maindawg Dec 2012 #36
nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 #39
AAO Dec 2012 #82
Katashi_itto Dec 2012 #140
defacto7 Dec 2012 #143
AAO Dec 2012 #153
Katashi_itto Dec 2012 #156
Carolina Dec 2012 #111
AntiFascist Dec 2012 #148
laundry_queen Dec 2012 #160
Mojorabbit Dec 2012 #107
Trunk Monkey Dec 2012 #113
paleotn Dec 2012 #126
Trunk Monkey Dec 2012 #129
AllyCat Dec 2012 #7
Cha Dec 2012 #8
calimary Dec 2012 #20
Cha Dec 2012 #41
calimary Dec 2012 #60
klyon Dec 2012 #67
AAO Dec 2012 #83
LiberalLovinLug Dec 2012 #145
Skittles Dec 2012 #9
Glassunion Dec 2012 #15
smokey nj Dec 2012 #17
Glassunion Dec 2012 #19
Jackpine Radical Dec 2012 #86
TalkingDog Dec 2012 #43
Glassunion Dec 2012 #48
TalkingDog Dec 2012 #91
ellisonz Dec 2012 #21
llmart Dec 2012 #33
CitizenPatriot Dec 2012 #71
ceejdre82 Dec 2012 #81
CitizenPatriot Dec 2012 #92
ceejdre82 Dec 2012 #96
riqster Dec 2012 #11
hockeynut57 Dec 2012 #122
robinlynne Dec 2012 #13
morningfog Dec 2012 #14
heaven05 Dec 2012 #16
calimary Dec 2012 #18
ellisonz Dec 2012 #22
Glassunion Dec 2012 #25
ellisonz Dec 2012 #28
Glassunion Dec 2012 #100
TheCowsCameHome Dec 2012 #23
Patiod Dec 2012 #24
Glassunion Dec 2012 #27
Patiod Dec 2012 #42
PavePusher Dec 2012 #70
Patiod Dec 2012 #127
PavePusher Dec 2012 #147
juajen Dec 2012 #76
Patiod Dec 2012 #136
Patiod Dec 2012 #138
joe1991 Dec 2012 #26
calimary Dec 2012 #29
Glassunion Dec 2012 #35
calimary Dec 2012 #57
Bette Dec 2012 #101
calimary Dec 2012 #103
atreides1 Dec 2012 #158
calimary Dec 2012 #166
Auntie Bush Dec 2012 #61
llmart Dec 2012 #37
calimary Dec 2012 #59
etherealtruth Dec 2012 #30
WiffenPoof Dec 2012 #32
llmart Dec 2012 #34
Permanut Dec 2012 #38
xchrom Dec 2012 #40
Glassunion Dec 2012 #99
MFM008 Dec 2012 #44
Iwillnevergiveup Dec 2012 #45
BlancheSplanchnik Dec 2012 #46
Dave_M Dec 2012 #47
Taverner Dec 2012 #49
PavePusher Dec 2012 #68
PD Turk Dec 2012 #50
Glassunion Dec 2012 #55
cantbeserious Dec 2012 #51
tiny elvis Dec 2012 #58
ItsTheMediaStupid Dec 2012 #65
Glassunion Dec 2012 #93
beac Dec 2012 #52
lillypaddle Dec 2012 #54
KT2000 Dec 2012 #56
Spitfire of ATJ Dec 2012 #62
katmille Dec 2012 #64
PavePusher Dec 2012 #69
slutticus Dec 2012 #66
October Dec 2012 #132
HockeyMom Dec 2012 #72
Carolina Dec 2012 #112
freshwest Dec 2012 #73
lbrtbell Dec 2012 #74
Glassunion Dec 2012 #98
oldbanjo Dec 2012 #75
amuse bouche Dec 2012 #77
Bette Dec 2012 #105
marions ghost Dec 2012 #78
Honeycombe8 Dec 2012 #79
wtmusic Dec 2012 #80
think_critically Dec 2012 #84
Jackpine Radical Dec 2012 #87
Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin Dec 2012 #85
fearnobush Dec 2012 #88
marions ghost Dec 2012 #116
Blasphemer Dec 2012 #89
doc03 Dec 2012 #90
Glassunion Dec 2012 #94
leanforward Dec 2012 #95
lupinella Dec 2012 #97
Wolf Frankula Dec 2012 #102
notgoinback Dec 2012 #106
cantbeserious Dec 2012 #108
proud2BlibKansan Dec 2012 #115
In_The_Wind Dec 2012 #114
Maineman Dec 2012 #117
AverageJoe90 Dec 2012 #119
RegieRocker Dec 2012 #118
fredamae Dec 2012 #120
Old and In the Way Dec 2012 #121
humbled_opinion Dec 2012 #123
benld74 Dec 2012 #124
dkf Dec 2012 #128
LiveNudePolitics Dec 2012 #130
nickinSTL Dec 2012 #133
Odin2005 Dec 2012 #134
LiberalSoWhat Dec 2012 #135
bkkyosemite Dec 2012 #137
The Green Manalishi Dec 2012 #139
Deep13 Dec 2012 #146
sulphurdunn Dec 2012 #150
Glassunion Dec 2012 #151
CountAllVotes Dec 2012 #152
cer7711 Dec 2012 #159
Glassunion Dec 2012 #165
Sunlei Dec 2012 #161
Glassunion Dec 2012 #163
Glassunion Dec 2012 #164
jimineez1 Dec 2012 #167
Glassunion Dec 2012 #168

Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:49 PM

1. this Multi Gun Owner too

I used to need to use guns for work but not anymore.

I've had enough and something needs to be done, NOW

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Response to NightWatcher (Reply #1)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:38 PM

63. I agree with the OP. I have antique guns and family weapons

that have been here a long time. As for the rarity argument, the dead children would say to those people it wasn't rare for me. Good job on this thread. Sanity is needed greatly. Even my gun nut sister-in-law was silent today.

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Response to NightWatcher (Reply #1)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:26 AM

104. Well of course

 

Securing our schools & colleges should have been done way back with the Cleveland school shooter, again with Purdy at another Cleveland school, and every shooting since then.

1.Arm teachers, Administration, and guards.
2.Build the fences with a minimum of gates with turn styles and metal dectectors
3.Install cameras, perimeter ground sensors, electronic emergency doors & window shades.

That is what still needs being done.

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Response to shintao (Reply #104)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 07:48 AM

110. Geez, do you comprehend what you're saying

... essentially turn schools into prisons. Some land of the free that would be to raise our kids in!

When my son was in high school, the campus was this bucolic, open field with trees and vast green areas... really lovely. Then after Columbine, a thick, wrought-iron fence was installed, trees (potential hiding places) were cut down and the whole place took on a more sinister, ominous air.

Were the kids safer? Perhaps.

But at what sacrifice.

Treat mental illness, make it harder to get weapons of mass destruction!

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Response to Carolina (Reply #110)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:11 PM

144. Carolina, your remark saddens me deeply.

Your comment is so lacking in logic. Tree cover is not the root of the problem. We, as Americans, appear to have ignored the lessons of Columbine. I suspect you know this. As for your pontificating "the whole place took on a more sinister, ominous air"; I call it for what it is, BS, horse shit and all shades of crazy. Just mho....

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Response to saidsimplesimon (Reply #144)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:59 PM

149. First, I

wasn't even talking to you! The poster I responded to said the following:

Securing our schools & colleges should have been done way back with the Cleveland school shooter, again with Purdy at another Cleveland school, and every shooting since then.

1.Arm teachers, Administration, and guards.
2.Build the fences with a minimum of gates with turn styles and metal dectectors
3.Install cameras, perimeter ground sensors, electronic emergency doors & window shades.

That is what still needs being done.


To which I responded about how that precription sounded like a prison and how far we have devolved from my son's high school years when the campus was open, free and lush with trees.

Can't you read?! It didn't lack logic! It was a lament for what we have become and what the poster I responded to recommended.

Your BS (and yes, you started it!) response saddens me but surely befits your screen name simple...

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Response to saidsimplesimon (Reply #144)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 07:30 PM

154. Well, at least you picked an accurate screen name.

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Response to saidsimplesimon (Reply #144)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 06:46 AM

162. Say wha now?

Carolina's comment is not "so lacking in logic", my friend. YOU are. Did you even read the comment?

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Response to shintao (Reply #104)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:08 AM

125. I think the shooter would have allowed into the school anyway.

My kids school has a door buzzer, you hit the button they buzz the door even if you don't stand infront of the camera. I know i purposely avoided the camera just see if i would get buzzed in and i still do. Also the guys mother was a teacher they may have recognized him and let him in anyway

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Response to shintao (Reply #104)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:54 AM

131. You forgot to arm the children

Or was that intentional?

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Response to durablend (Reply #131)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:30 PM

141. they're the inmates...

...in the poster's vision of schools in lockdown.

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Response to shintao (Reply #104)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 07:31 PM

155. Did you forget the sarcasm tag??

You are an idiot. I would like to soften that some, but I just cannot see how and remain honest.

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Response to shintao (Reply #104)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:37 PM

157. Wha no guard towers

at the corners; security w/ dogs walking the perimeter? If you are going to suggest turning schools into prisons, you might as well go all the way.

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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:50 PM

2. Welcome To The Sane Outlook Re Guns And Gun Ownership.


You have a lot more company than you might think......

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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:54 PM

3. Bravo and well written

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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:57 PM

4. Our biggest problem

We have many problems but there are solutions for all of them. Our biggest problem is that we have well funded organizations whose mission is to keep those solutions from working. They have a stranglehold on our public discourse and their pawns in congress quake in terror of their disapproval. In some crazy way the right of an individual, no matter how unstable or dangerous to society, to arm himself self like a commando has been conflated with religion, patriotism and the preservation of wealth. If we have any great leaders, it is time for them to show themselves and defy the NRA.

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Response to FightingIrish (Reply #4)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:36 PM

31. whatever firearms I may or may not posses are for emergencies only. not to lash out at someone

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Response to pasto76 (Reply #31)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:14 PM

53. sez you and who cares

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Response to pasto76 (Reply #31)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 07:27 AM

109. the guns you dont possess are for emergencies? huh?

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Response to pasto76 (Reply #31)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:38 PM

142. Only until they are stolen from you.

Then they are used for.... what?

And don't tell me that yours or secure. You don't live in Ft. Knox.

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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:59 PM

5. Great post. Thank you. K&R n/t

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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:00 PM

6. Today I trashed one of your two favorite forums

We need to speak as adults.

Any solution, that is rational, will take years to bear any fruit. But for starters gun laws have to be federal...hodgepodge don't work. They are to deal with a public health crisis.

The first two steps, in my view, bring back the AWB and the second close the gun show loophole.

I'd look at Canada and her laws as well, almost same number of guns but a lot less.

I think having actual licensing and tough federal background checks is part of it...another is culture.

Welcome to the conversation.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #6)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:09 PM

10. Why did you trash Cooking and Baking?

Hardly productive.

I've always been for closing the so-call "gun show loophole". It's not so much a loophole. Right now it is actaully illegal for a private seller to use the background check system. I've always wanted a way that requires all private sales to include a background check.

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Response to Glassunion (Reply #10)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:15 PM

12. RKBA

And yes, I know.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #6)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:42 PM

36. Canada does not tollerate hate speech and out right lying

Their elections arent for sale.at least they did not used to be.
The problem is hate speech. the culture of lies.The head in the sand thing. Denial. Accountability.
The Rush Limbau.glen beck /fox news alternate reality hate radio/tv. It is non stop. 24/7. People are addicted to it. They are addicted to fear, and loathing. The communists , the liberals, the gays, the feminists, the illegals , and in what amounts to parallel universes, the jews. The criminal enterprise that is Fox News. Is hate speech. There is no Fox News in Canada. Because they dont tolerate hate speech. but we do.

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Response to maindawg (Reply #36)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:47 PM

39. I know

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Response to maindawg (Reply #36)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:26 PM

82. I love your post.

 

It's a corporate conspiracy to divide us. And it has been very effective, especially when you have Fox News at your disposal

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Response to AAO (Reply #82)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:26 PM

140. Whatever.

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Response to Katashi_itto (Reply #140)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:42 PM

143. Apathetic much?

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Response to Katashi_itto (Reply #140)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 07:26 PM

153. Whatever times 2!

 

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Response to AAO (Reply #153)


Response to maindawg (Reply #36)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 07:53 AM

111. excellent points

I dare say throw in some of the churches, too. I went, as a guest of a work colleague (that I thought I knew!) to one where the villification of the POTUS and gays was acceptable. Never again and I view that colleague differently, too.

There is a lot a hate speech in churches


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Response to Carolina (Reply #111)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:55 PM

148. Unfortunately, too many in the US view church as the solution to these types of problems...

and the media doesn't really help. I wouldn't broad-brush all churches as promoting hate speech, but it is important to remember that right-wing religious figures are typically the ones who come up with the (not so) brilliant conclusion that gays are at the center of the problem and that God allows these types of tragedies to happen as a direct result of progress in gay rights. When people with this perspective engage with others who share their beliefs, it only strengthens their point of view and soon it becomes a political initiative.

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Response to maindawg (Reply #36)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 03:00 AM

160. Jesus H. Christ people

Stop spreading this lie. There IS Fox News in Canada. Comes with my 'news package' even. We even have our own Canadian version, that we dub 'fox news north' Sun News, and it's just as full of shit as Fox.

I don't know that hate speech laws lessen gun crime. I'd doubt there's been a study. But what I do know - we heavily regulate handguns, and less guns=less gun deaths. Simple arithmetic. It's not just the fucking guns, it's the OBSCENE amount of them.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #6)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:05 AM

107. Connecticut already had very strict gun laws

The evening news said guns have to be registered and if I am not mistaken they do ban semi autos. Wikipedia says "Certificate of Eligibility for Pistol or Revolver required to purchase handguns. Applicants must complete an approved handgun safety course, and pass a NICS background check prior to issuance of certificate. Certificate of Eligibility valid for five years. There is a 14-day waiting period for the purchase of long guns, with exceptions for peace officers, Active-Duty military members, and holders of carry permits and hunting licenses.

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Response to Mojorabbit (Reply #107)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 08:28 AM

113. Connecticut does have strict gun laws but they don't ban Semi Automatics

 

And apparently those strict laws on purchase did nothing to stop the killer from stealing them guns he used.

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Response to Trunk Monkey (Reply #113)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:10 AM

126. Granted, since the weapons used were semi-auto.....

Maybe it's time to ban civilian ownership of semi-auto weapons? I can't think of a reason for me that would require semi-auto for any legitimate purpose. I've never had a reason to send rounds downrange that quickly. For hunting, bolt, lever and pump work just fine.

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Response to paleotn (Reply #126)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:28 AM

129. Maybe it's time to ban civilian ownership of semi-auto weapons?

 

That would ban civilian ownership of 75% of the guns in America and affect millions of voters who would remember that it was a Democratic President that did that to them for the rest of their lives.

See where I'm going with that?

And it wouldn't have effected the outcome of yesterday's shooting at all. the shooter was the only person in the building with a gun he could have had a revolver (or more likely two) and ir wouldn't have mattered.

At Virginia tech the shooter had 2 pistols, one of which was a .22, every time he unloaded the Glock (10 round magazines BTW) he used the .22 to hold folks off for the second it took him to reload.

A revolver would have been slower but the end result wouldn't have changed.

How about we (as a nation) address the fact that the shooter was known to be disturbed (as was the tuscon shooter, as was the V Tech killer above, as was the guy in Aurora, a was the guy at New Life ) and no one stepped up and reported their concerns.

How about we work on the base causes of these shootings?

How about we demand that the media not turn reporting such incidents into media circuses and that they never mention the shooter's name.

That seems like a much more viable solution to me

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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:00 PM

7. Thank you! This is an actual discussion

And I could discuss if I was not so horrified.

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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:05 PM

8. Thanks for your post, Glassunion..

We'll see what the President says tomorrow in his weekly address.. the repubs are cancelling theirs so he can speak for the entire nation..

Mark Knoller

✔@markknoller Speaker Boehner cancels Repulicans' Weekly Address tomorrow "so that Pres Obama can speak for the entire nation at this time of mourning."

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Response to Cha (Reply #8)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:21 PM

20. Well how 'bout that. Boner does something for the good, for a change.

Well how 'bout that?

He must not be feeling well at the moment.

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Response to calimary (Reply #20)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:52 PM

41. I guess even boner knows that the NRA owned gop

better lay low for now.

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Response to Cha (Reply #41)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:30 PM

60. Evidently the NRA is already laying low. I heard on MSNBC they refused an invitation to appear

on camera. Gee, what a surprise.

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Response to calimary (Reply #60)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:48 PM

67. they always refuse to speak on TV after these type of things

but that won't stop them from tomorrow sending out more of their republican PR bull

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Response to calimary (Reply #20)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:31 PM

83. I think he knows it would be out of control waterworks.

 

And once that orange starts to run - you get the image.

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Response to Cha (Reply #8)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:18 PM

145. No the rebuttal will come from FAUX News and Rush

With the full blessing of the GOP.

I can predict it already. They will say How could he use such a tragic occasion to politicize it by threatening the 2nd amendment. They will get on air some relative or friend of a victim, one of their own FAUX watching rabid gun nuts. There's always one at least in every crowd. Someone who will "speak for the parents" and say that gun control is NOT the answer, or that we need MORE guns floating around instead of less. And of course the usual "This is NOT the time to have a discussion about this!"

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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:05 PM

9. you are now a gun owner and not a gun nut

I want the gun nut fucking COWARDS off of DU - I am sick of them; the COUNTRY is sick of them

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Response to Skittles (Reply #9)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:17 PM

15. What the hell do I do with all of my "Gun-Nut" t-shirts I had made up?

Sergeant. I agree with you. The trolls have taken over as of late.

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Response to Glassunion (Reply #15)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:19 PM

17. You could edit them to read "Gum-Nut"

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Response to smokey nj (Reply #17)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:21 PM

19. Well... I do like trees. I guess that wood work.

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Response to Glassunion (Reply #19)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:37 PM

86. Chewz carefully. Leave it to Beaver. Don't be a sap.

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Response to Glassunion (Reply #15)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:56 PM

43. Put Sho in front and draw a samuri sword on them.

n/t

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Response to TalkingDog (Reply #43)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:03 PM

48. Thanks for the laugh... Needed that.

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Response to Glassunion (Reply #48)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:07 PM

91. No worries. That's why we're all here together.

n/t

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Response to Skittles (Reply #9)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:24 PM

21. +1

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Response to Skittles (Reply #9)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:38 PM

33. I'm with you on that one.

I want them gone. In fact I stayed away from DU for a year or so because I couldn't stomach the gun nuts on here. It didn't seem like DU when that happened.

So, who's going to join us? All of us sane ones need to put all of them on Ignore. Don't engage them.

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Response to Skittles (Reply #9)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:53 PM

71. I agree

I own a gun and I enjoy shooting. But I also believe the gun laws need to be reformed. It is obvious. It's been obvious. So too the culture needs a wake up call re violent rhetoric and hostility.

Even suggesting that gets you attacked on here by rabid gun nuts.

And that is the problem. No discussion can be had with extremists. I never said I wanted to get rid of guns. I want to have a discussion with relevant people about the GUN CULTURE and the bs that goes along with it, including their hold on our legislators. The very fact that some people find it unacceptable to voice that shows the problem.

After today, they will come back screaming and bullying anyone who doesn't agree with them. That behavior alone is part of the problem. I don't want PEOPLE LIKE THAT to have legal access to an automatic gun when they get angry or disappointed in life. Just saying.

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Response to CitizenPatriot (Reply #71)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:23 PM

81. I have to go to a birthday party for a gun-nut friend tomorrow....

I have already discussed him on here, his terrible comments after the shooting at the Batman movie and the Sikh shooting....basically a people kill people, it isn't the gun's fault, and if people there would have bigger guns, they could take the shooter out...these are his thoughts in a nut shell (gun-nut shell). I will be PISSED if he mentions this tomorrow. He cannot be reasoned with, as you mentioned these people cannot be reasoned with. It is not like this is Colonial times when we needed Minute Men!

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Response to ceejdre82 (Reply #81)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:37 PM

92. I feel for you

Is it too much to ask that he just leaves it alone for a day? Funny how they would be if YOU brought it up, with your opinion -- yet they are entitled to spew in our faces, forcing us to either fight with them or bite our tongue. I'm fed up with it.

I hope it works out peacefully for you.

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Response to CitizenPatriot (Reply #92)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:20 PM

96. I couldn't agree with you more...and thank you, i hope it does too!

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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:11 PM

11. Rights do not have to be completely unregulated

For example, we have the right to vote; but we have to do certain things to be allowed to exercise that right. And if we do certain things, we can lose that right.

I see no reason for RKBA to be any different.

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Response to riqster (Reply #11)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:41 AM

122. if gun ownership was as difficult to

participate in as the gop tried to make voting in the last election....

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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:15 PM

13. Thank-you so much for this OP. it is not all over the place. It is sanity, whihc we desperately need

I am against guns, but consider you a partner, sister or brother, in the making of a decent society. This is only the second time in my life I can say that to a person who (belonged) to the NRA.

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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:16 PM

14. Recommend. Thank you for sanity father than obssessive ideology.

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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:18 PM

16. +1000

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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:20 PM

18. You don't have to be a gun nut to have had enough.

I'm so fed up by all of these, this being only the latest one.

WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON IN THIS COUNTRY????? WHAT THE HELL IS WITH THOSE who cling to these instruments of death? WHY?????

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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:28 PM

22. There are all kinds of things we can do from a gun policy perspective...

...and it's the NRA Crowd that is standing in the way. It's like Bill Clinton said back in 1993 - to keep going on with this status quo is "madness."

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #22)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:30 PM

25. Man I miss Bill.

Such a great orator.

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Response to Glassunion (Reply #25)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:34 PM

28. Hey both Clinton's are still kicking...

...and they've wanted more common sense gun control for quite some time. My father hunted squirrels and rabbits with a .22 as a child. We can still have that and not have madness like today. I can only pray that maybe good folks like you have woken up to the reality of guns in our country.

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #28)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:42 AM

100. Hopefully Clinton in '16?

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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:30 PM

23. Now if the Gungeon would only follow suit.

But hell hasn't frozen over yet.

Thank you for your post.

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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:30 PM

24. I was naive at one point a few years ago

I went into the gungeon and asked an honest question: I said that I had no problem with every farmer and rancher living out in the boonies of AZ to be armed to the teeth, but I wondered why people living in the boonies of AZ won't consider that those of us living on top of each other in cities are in a different situation, and get really nervous when we see news story after news story about young teenage girls shooting each other out front of their middle school, neighbors shooting neighbors who "steal" their parking places, drive-bys in the city center, etc.

I said I am a gun owner and like target shooting, but can't we talk about some reasonable no-worse-than-car gun regulations?

Hahaha. I have never been flamed so badly in my life. I was basically told I was an idiot to be worried about being shot.

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Response to Patiod (Reply #24)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:33 PM

27. That's exactly the problem.

Both sides do this down there and frankly I'm tired of it. No matter what you post or how honest of a discussion you are trying to have, you get piled on.

The trolls/sock puppets are really bad as of late.

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Response to Glassunion (Reply #27)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:55 PM

42. And I salute you, therefore, for calling for civil conversation

I have never had a civil conversation on DU about guns (and remember, I'm not in the "no guns" camp - I just want car-like regulation and registration).

Every time anyone here proposes anything that's less than "any weapon, any time, for anybody, no restrictions whatsoever" and the gun nuts will just HOUND you.

If we can't have a civil conversation on a liberal board about the subject, what hope is there to have this conversation in the rest of the country?

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Response to Patiod (Reply #24)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:53 PM

70. Do people in cities have no need for self-defense?

 

Should they be denied that Right because some criminals do criminal things?

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #70)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:11 AM

127. And there, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, we have it

Exactly what I was talking about. They come pouring out of the Gungeon (check the profiles) not to discuss, but only to defend their precious guns, armed with NRA talking points.

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Response to Patiod (Reply #127)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:32 PM

147. I'm trying to have a discussion.

 

You are intentionally not having one.

Why will you not answer my question?

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Response to Patiod (Reply #24)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:05 PM

76. What teenage girls shoooting each other? Got a link? Girls rarely kill people, let alone with guns

But, do elucidate. However, I have heard of girls in gang activity and women killing abusive men, etc. There are exceptions to every rule. There are even female terrorists and spys, etc.

Mental illness is rampant, and no one can get help for it unless they have money. Ever heard of a free psychiatrist?

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Response to juajen (Reply #76)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:56 PM

136. No link for that pre 2004 story

The story about the two girls with guns happened just outside their school (so it's not compiled with in-school shootings) and I know it occurred before 2004 because we were telling people about it when we were on a vacation trip that year. Everything I've found on google has been within the past 5 years - I'd probably have more luck if I still had a Lexis/Nexis account.

You ahead a google "girls guns school" through. It's a fun read.

Here are some recent occurrences of kids bringing guns to school
http://recentschoolviolenceevents.webs.com/

I rest my case, though, about the impossibility of having a civil discussion of gun violence here on DU with the Gungeon folks.

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Response to juajen (Reply #76)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:32 PM

138. Since I couldn't find the older link, here's a nice fresh one

Instead of teenaged girls fighting, it's a young mom ordering a "hit" on someone on the bus who gave her grief for hitting her baby, and her relatives are glad to oblige, spraying the bus with gunfire.


More guns on SEPTA - thank God a level-headed Dad stepped in and calmed things down.


Bonus shooting videos! On the same public transit that I use all the time - same line I ride to Phillies games! Yay!


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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:31 PM

26. excellent post Glassunion

Growing up in a rural area, I also have many conflicting thoughts, but we all have to begin talking about solutions.

As with the healthcare debate, let's first look at what works or doesn't work around the globe.

There also appears to be something especially wrong in our culture, with many young men going postal.

Perhaps more education, maybe taking "virtual" guns out of video games and movies.

Maybe moving the age of ownership to 25, or requiring police interview and the signatures of a few co-workers and family members who believe they are mature enough.

I'm for whatever works.

Twenty young American children forever lost their constitutional rights today because of gun violence. It's unacceptable to me.

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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:34 PM

29. We also need to come at this problem from another direction as well:

We have to figure out how to yank the teeth out of the NRA. Diminish it and demean it and work on the public mindset to render it MUCH less desirable and less "all-American rah-rah-rah." We have to find AS MANY WAYS AS POSSIBLE to weaken it and its power base, to cost it money, to cost it support, to cost it backing, to cost it influence. I don't know what the answer is - except maybe for forcing them to defend 100 lawsuits a week? We have to start thinking in terms of how we can break its back, its bank account, and it's monstrous influence.

We need to strategize. How do you break the NRA? That should be a serious and vital question on EVERYONE'S minds. For the Love of GOD! It's become an epidemic! At the rate we're going, the next gun-nut nutcase slaughter victim might be YOU!!!

We need to bring to this - the same mindset that has attacked organized labor - denying it public support, starving it financially, demeaning and dirtying its name and reputation, WHATEVER IT TAKES. The kind of campaign that's left organized labor and entities like teacher unions and public employee unions that protect firefighters' and police officers' interests in the work place. This relentless campaign to gut organized labor worked beautifully.

WHY CAN'T WE LAUNCH A SIMILAR CAMPAIGN - against the NRA?????

We can't work on this issue one-dimensionally. We can't ONLY work on changing and toughening up the laws. We can't ONLY work on electing pro-gun restriction legislators. We can't just do that. We have to think far more broadly across the political landscape. Go at this from many directions and with many strategies. What brought ACORN down? WHY CAN'T WE DO STUFF LIKE THAT??????? I think we need to start thinking along those lines. As long as the NRA stays almost unassailable, we are doomed to lose this argument. The NRA needs to have its teeth and claws - and its mighty funding - REMOVED.



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Response to calimary (Reply #29)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:42 PM

35. The problem as I see it is money.

They have a lot of it. They in turn take that money and put it into the pockets of politicians. They get more money by praying on fear. The more money the make the more fear they monger the more money they make, wash/rince/repeat...

Just like with anything, it's the money that makes things happen.

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Response to Glassunion (Reply #35)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:24 PM

57. Well, then Job One becomes: HOW TO DENY THEM MONEY.

DRY UP their funding. The bad guys have been saying "Starve the beast" - for YEARS - referring to the federal government. Well, I think we use that SAME strategy against the NRA.

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Response to calimary (Reply #57)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:12 AM

101. Agree..

It is time we launch an attack against their constant bullying ways!

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Response to Bette (Reply #101)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:21 AM

103. Welcome to DU, Bette!

Glad you're here. We need LOTS of thinking on this issue. HOW can we fight back? HOW can we be effective, at long last, on this issue!

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Response to calimary (Reply #57)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:05 PM

158. How Indeed?

My guess is that most of their money comes from gun makers, not from membership dues...how do we deny that funding for the NRA?

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Response to atreides1 (Reply #158)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 01:50 PM

166. Start the drum beat, atreides1. PERCEPTION MANAGEMENT!

Help turn public opinion AGAINST them!

For your consideration:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022008662

OTHER GOOD IDEAS in this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022006557

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Response to Glassunion (Reply #35)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:33 PM

61. It's money and the right wing hate media!

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Response to calimary (Reply #29)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:43 PM

37. Excellent.

Maybe you can start a forum for those of us who won't dirty our minds by logging into the gungeon. You could call it the anti-gungeon or whatever. And those of us who are sane with regards to this issue can come up with strategies to do just what you're proposing in your post. Hell, just opening up our mouths and voicing our opinions in public, within our own spheres and not being cowards who are afraid to make waves, well, that's a start. Too many people who feel strongly about this won't take a public stand on it within our own little spheres because we might look like we don't play nice.

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Response to llmart (Reply #37)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:29 PM

59. Well, I don't wanna play nice!

Nice doesn't feed the bulldog, so to speak. TIRED of nice. I want to get ruthless and mean. ANYTHING they've done against teachers, public employees, unions in general, liberals in general, ACORN, and more - I want to turn that strategy around ON THEM.

Not sure what this term "gungeon" is about since I don't go onto pro-gun sites. How does one start a forum? That sounds like a good idea. Might be good, and shrewd, to have ONE place to find strategizing and think pieces and proposals we can kick around and refine - so they're WORKABLE in the real world.

'Cause we need to think this out. Work the problem, people - as they said in "Apollo 13." We need to start thinking and strategizing about this. Organize our thoughts and our ideas. Come at it as a united front. If we show some muscle, or this movement shows some muscle, maybe at least some of the politicians who worship the power and influence of the NRA might start fearing us and taking us seriously, for a change. I'd like to take a page from the bad guys' book, and shove it back down their throats!!!

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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:34 PM

30. I despise guns .... but, this is an extremely appropriate post

I admire your sensibility and responsibility

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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:36 PM

32. Dear NRA:

Okay, you've had your fun. It's time for the adults to take over.

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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:39 PM

34. Tremendous post.

Thank you for your eloquence and for your courage to take a stand.

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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:45 PM

38. Very thoughtful and cogent post.. K & R

I'm a gun owner, and I am among the vast majority of gun owners who are NOT members of the NRA. They do not speak for me, and never have.

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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:50 PM

40. Cautiously I support you.

For my money - there are too many guns in society.

Not everything is or should be for everybody.

We need some Discrimination here.

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Response to xchrom (Reply #40)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:22 AM

99. I'm always leary of the word discrimination.

But I see where you are coming from.

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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:57 PM

44. I have a gun

my son has 4. We agree though, now is the time. Something must be done. You cant stop it but you can do what you can do. Im NOT in the mood right now to hear some idiot say 'people dont kill people, the gun kills people.'
JUST DO IT.

bless the victims and families.

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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:00 PM

45. "...and not tip-toe around the NRA"

Those words say it all. After the shock of it all slowly, slowly began settling in my brain, I was stuck on the long term fallout while driving around today listening to the radio. 20 kids = 40 parents, 80 grandparents, how many brothers, sisters, cousins, aunts and uncles. Not to mention families of the murdered adults. Not to mention friends of the families.

In this quiet little town in Connecticut, I'd wager the close, direct trauma and fallout reach into the thousands. And into the millions throughout the country.

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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:01 PM

46. honestly, I think the proper action is gun control laws.

Plain and simple.

Here's part of a post I just made--excerpted from a link to Washington Post
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1983787

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/07/23/six-facts-about-guns-violence-and-gun-control/
2. The South is the most violent region in the United States.
In a subsequent post, Healy drilled further into the numbers and looked at deaths due to assault in different regions of the country. Just as the United States is a clear outlier in the international context, the South is a clear outlier in the national context: (see graph at web page)
...

4. More guns tend to mean more homicide.
The Harvard Injury Control Research Center assessed the literature on guns and homicide and found that there’s substantial evidence that indicates more guns means more murders. This holds true whether you’re looking at different countries or different states.
....

5. States with stricter gun control laws have fewer deaths from gun-related violence.
Last year, economist Richard Florida dove deep into the correlations between gun deaths and other kinds of social indicators. Some of what he found was, perhaps, unexpected: Higher populations, more stress, more immigrants, and more mental illness were not correlated with more deaths from gun violence. But one thing he found was, perhaps, perfectly predictable: States with tighter gun control laws appear to have fewer gun-related deaths. The disclaimer here is that correlation is not causation. But correlations can be suggestive: (see graph at web page)



Your OP is excellent, by the way.

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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:03 PM

47. Well said...

thank you for expressing that so well.

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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:08 PM

49. I used to support gun rights too

 

I never owned a gun, and would joke that the 2nd ammendment also allows you to not have a gun if you don't want one.

I never wanted to live in a world where I needed a gun.

And we don't right now.

If every kid was armed, it would have been a shooting gallery that killed everyone.

I think the absolute least we need is to mandate a psych eval in order to get a gun. Yearly.

I think taking all guns should still be on the table.

And, I think we need to destroy the NRA. Drown it in a bathtub. Remove it. Make it don blowed up.

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Response to Taverner (Reply #49)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:50 PM

68. No-one, anywhere, is suggesting arming children. n/t

 

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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:10 PM

50. Me too

I'm a lifelong firearm enthusiast and former NRA member. I left the NRA when they decided to become an extremist wing of the GOP rather than the sportsman's advocacy group they once were.

I am also the father of a 7 year old daughter and that very well could have been her school today.

I don't claim to have all the answers but I do believe this is a discussion our nation needs to have, in a calm rational manner, rather than just extremists screaming back and forth at each other, nothing useful ever gets done that way.

-I believe it is high time to subject the private sales of used firearms to the same background checks that dealers have to use.

-I believe we need to have the ability to take a closer look at the mental health history of prospective gun buyers for red flags

-I believe strongly that we should emphatically enforce existing laws regarding straw purchasers and make life miserable for anybody who buys a gun for someone who is legally unable to buy it for themselves.

-I believe we should end this damned ridiculous and ineffective war on drugs, how many people have been gunned down on the streets over that ignorant horseshit

-I believe we should set out to build a better country... a better society. We are a nation that has become poisoned by greed, hatred, violence and unnecessary poverty. When we look at the differences between us and other more civilized countries our deficiencies in social and economic justice are glaring.


We can do better than this, I know we can.

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Response to PD Turk (Reply #50)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:21 PM

55. Well said

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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:12 PM

51. Disagree - Guns Should Be Strictly Controlled And Licensed - The NRA Be Damned

eom

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Response to cantbeserious (Reply #51)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:24 PM

58. yes

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Response to cantbeserious (Reply #51)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:48 PM

65. The problem here is not the NRA, it's the Supreme Court and Federal Appellate Courts

There have been a string of decisions in the last few years, basically cosigning the NRA position that individuals have the absolute right to own firearms.

This is a direct product of the Federalist Society and GOP appointees. It would be interesting to see who bankrolls the Federalist Society. It wouldn't surprise me to find the gun lobby's fingerprints everywhere.

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Response to ItsTheMediaStupid (Reply #65)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:49 PM

93. I disagree a little.

There have been a string of decisions in the last few years, basically cosigning the NRA position that individuals have the absolute right to own firearms. - Not quite. The two most recent decisions still left room for gun control. The issue as I see it is that the losers in those cases tried to violate the rulings. Basically, that the court ruled it was legal for for folks in Chicago to own handguns, but then the city made it impossible for folks to get a handgun. Thus giving the residents grounds to seek relief. Chicago was a mess, and could have been prevented all together.

That said, I would like to see who bankrolls and pulls all of the strings at the NRA.

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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:13 PM

52. An excellent post.

Especially this: "I know that there has to be a solution that will work, but it will never be found if there is no discussion."

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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:18 PM

54. Thank you

good on you.

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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:23 PM

56. thank you Glassunion

For years I have been obsessed with the idea that for all the problems in the Middle East, I only care what each side is willing to give up so their children will not grow up in war and terror. If they are notwilling to give up anything - screw 'em.

Now, that is the feeling about my own country. What are we willing to do to save our children from growing up in a world where massacres can happen when they go to school, when they go Christmas shopping.

We are living in a gun free-for-all.

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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:34 PM

62. I'm old enough to remember the NRA as a naturalist group....

They used to advocate wilderness areas for healthy herds.

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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:43 PM

64. Thank you for being "teachable:

I'm a liberal grandmother of girls, 5 and 7 whom I adore with all my heart. I have been anti-gun since I first touched a rifle that belonged to my uncle. I was repulsed. In my opinion, a gun is designed for one thing. Killing something! That's it. And those who say it is for the hunter: Well, do you hunt to "wound" or "scare" an animal? NO! You hunt to kill. So a gun is a killing tool! That's it.
Studies show that more people are killed by accident than are protected by guns, so the guns keep people alive is a myth. We must have this conversation! We must stop the killing. God help the USA if we cannot stop this horrible trend!!

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Response to katmille (Reply #64)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:52 PM

69. "Studies show that more people are killed by accident than are protected by guns..."

 

This is emminently untrue.

Or can you cite to these "studies"?

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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:48 PM

66. Good luck having a rational discussion here

If you don't agree to "ban all guns now" as a solution, then there is no discussion.

We absolutely need stricter controls on gun ownership, but the problem is that there are already laws in place that are supposed to prevent this kind of thing: but they are not being enforced AT ALL.

The federally required screening of mental health status is not enough, california's laws are pretty strict but it's still too easy to get a gun here. In my opinion, there should be tests (and hard ones, the HSC test is a fucking joke...), plus functional testing/training AND a mental health screening test. And even then, your gun should stay at home or on the range. And then the other problem: who pays for all the enforcement? Maybe an ammo tax? Ammo costs around .30 cents to 1.00 per round. That's way too cheap.

Although what's the point of stricter laws if they aren't really enforced or are circumvented through loopholes?

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Response to slutticus (Reply #66)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:02 PM

132. Wonder why there are no rational discussions...



It's hardly true that "HERE" on must "agree to ban all guns..."

Though, I do agree with you that ammunition is too cheap. Perhaps that is a place to start a discussion.

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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:56 PM

72. Take your guns and put them where the sun doesn't shine

I say this as a TA who has been through 2 lock downs in the "gun rights state of Florida" with 4 and 5 year old kids TERRIFIED for their lives, and also as the wife of a gun owner. You are totally clueless until you have experienced the horror of these kids with YOUR GUNS.

Your guns make me SICK to my stomach. Oh, I said this to my husband too.



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Response to HockeyMom (Reply #72)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 08:18 AM

112. I agree with you, HockeyMom, and

my heart goes out to you for having had to experience the horror of lockdowns.

I teach at the college level, but volunteer at an "underprivileged" grade school because I enjoy being among the little ones, so yesterday really hit home for me.

At the university, we are aware of the students who seem troubled and could potentially be time bombs. Problem is, while the school can be hyper-vigilant and have procedures in place, the perpetrator often has elaborate planning, too, coupled with the element of surprise and a cache of weapons. And though university security and other law enforcement may be notified of a suspicious student, nothing can be done until the student does something.

A very sad time in a nation that embraces, -- hell, glorifies -- guns.

I hear ya and I'm with ya

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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:56 PM

73. Well said and much respect to you.

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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:57 PM

74. We need better mental health care

Because insane people are going to do insane things, if they get no treatment.

If they have no guns, they'll find other weapons. They'll mow people down with cars, go online and learn to build their own guns, or worse--learn to build bombs with fertilizer and a handful of other ingredients.

Whatever weapon they use, the root cause is the same--when someone is so insane that they pose a danger to others, something needs to be done before they get to this point.

Because, guns or no guns, people will still be killed and we will still be mourning.

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Response to lbrtbell (Reply #74)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:17 AM

98. Yes they will still kill, guns or not.

However, along with healthcare I personally feel that there is an opportunity for effective gun control. Not the knee-jerk, feel-good fluff that does nothing.

I have been thinking long and hard on this for quite some time, and once I get my head straight, and can formulate what I'm thinking, I feel that and effective discussion is in order on what can be done that gets results.

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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:01 PM

75. I'm thru with NRA because of the lies about Obama.

Something needs to be done about the killings, but I don't know what will work.

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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:08 PM

77. I have always admired people who see the light..change their minds

about big issues. I feel the same way about life long Republicans who evolve to Democrats

Thank you for your thoughtful post

I grew up in the NE and no one had guns nor have I ever held one. I never understood the absolute passion and love some feel for a chunk of metal that so often kills loved ones and neighbors

And as for the great lovers of the 2nd Amendment, I believe that people should be allowed to have the same weaponry as the Founding Fathers...Muskets and Cannons. Was there anything else? If so, they can have that too

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Response to amuse bouche (Reply #77)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:34 AM

105. Absolutely!

I was just having that conversation. These folks who cling so desperately to the 2nd amendment and following the constitution to the letter, if that's what you want then, give them the muskets. And only those weapons from that era. You want to live in the 1780's, go for it, but you have to do it just like they did back then. You'd get one shot off, and the mob would have ya before you could reload. The constitution is a living document, designed to grow and change with the times, with the population and technology. No one wants to take your guns, just want to take away those 30 - 100 round clips and assault weapons. We used to have a ban on assault weapons, it worked. What's the problem with that now?
I am so sick of hearing the same old excuses. No self-respecting hunter is using these kinds of weapons to hunt game. Or who needs these to protect their homes? Won't a normal gun or rifle do anymore? Automatics are just a power-trip, not necessary. Nobody gets mugged by a mob that they need to blow off 100 rounds, ok?

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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:09 PM

78. "What happened today is not an acceptable byproduct of our rights."

thank you for those words, Glassunion

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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:13 PM

79. Excellent post. I feel the same. It can't be stopped. But if we can precent ONE incident of

a mass killing of children, it's worth it. SOMETHING can be done to at least slow these incidents down.

So many little children. Harmless, vulnerable, innocent, helpless. My heart is breaking.

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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:17 PM

80. Your post = hope

that there is a solution to this problem.

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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:32 PM

84. I'll probably get flamed for this

 

but I think all of the talk about gun control is missing the point entirely. This isn't about guns. Connecticut has some of the
strictest gun laws in the country. We will never eliminate the second amendment and b/c of that blaming this on gun is just a
smokescreen. I am no supporter of the nra and certainly no fan of guns in general. However, in tragedies like this we owe it to those
children to be honest with ourselves so that we can help fix this. The real problem is our culture and our lack of attention to mental
health issues. We live lives that are so consumed with the pursuit of meaningless things and we are spoiled to the point where for
some of us, when things go wrong, we want to take it out on others. The only way to really stop this with gun control is to completely
get rid of guns and that will never happen. We need to focus more on the individuals and not the weapons. It''s hard to accept but
it's the truth.

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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:36 PM

85. Agreed

I remember when I was a kid the NRA used to be about marksmanship and firearm safety. At Boy Scout summer camp one could earn NRA awards if one hit a requisite score on the rifle range.

When LaPierre took over the organization morphed into a paranoid right wing lobbying group. Obama has never proposed gun control laws but that hasn't stopped shit mouths like La Pierre from accussing him of having secret plans to do otherwise.

Most gun owners I know are responsible people. However we need to make it harder for mentally unstable people to get firearms.

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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:47 PM

88. I cried at work today thinking anout my two boys of 6yrs old. I too have registerd gun in my home.

It's strickly kept as a last resort. Even when my home was threatend by a pschyo demanding demanding entry. The gun remained locked up. A simple police call resolved that situation and he was hauled off. I would hope the strick permit process in place in my state, the background checks and letters of recommendation needed for the approval of the permit was enough to determine me fit to own a gun. Although I support the 2nd amendment and have exercised it legally in my state, I would vote to support further restrictions including background checks of the members in my own home!
If I have a child or familly member with a mental ailment or a criminal record in my house, I should be forced to forfeit my right to house or bring in a gun to the premises. I also believe the second amendment would loosely agree.

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Any potential insane person with a gun threatens the security of a free state. When that state's children are being ruthlessly executed, the threat couldn't be more real. At this point, it up to our "well regulated militia," which I interpret as our police or national guard to protect our state, to protect our nation from these deranged terrorists. I do believe keeping arms away from those who threaten us violates the security of the state and thus fire arms must be kept away from them. Anyone who has a potential to murders children must have this right infringed.
We need to have a vgorous background checks and arms limitations debate immediately. Fuck the NRA leadership. They can peel my cold dead hands from their throats before we continue to allow their reckless arms dealers easy access to individuals who kill our children.


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Response to fearnobush (Reply #88)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:23 AM

116. True story: I once had a loaded gun pointed at me by a demented old dude

outside his house.

His daughter came running out and said, "oh sorry, Dad's on new meds."

Oh. Sorry.

Not good enough.

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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:50 PM

89. Great post.

I've never been a "gun-nut", as I've never even been around a gun, much less held or used one. However, I've also never been a dedicated gun control advocate. The reason for the latter relates to how the country was founded and the fact that armed resistance is sometimes necessary. Hunting or self-defense was never the reason for my hesitancy to fully support gun control laws. While I see the importance of the right to have an armed citizenry, I've also never understood why the issue was so either/or and black and white. Free speech has been defined in such a way that there is no such thing as 100% free speech. I think we're all aware of the fire in a crowded theater example and we know that the public airwaves are censored. So, I've never felt that gun control laws would necessarily undermine civil liberties where gun ownership is concerned. You are correct that the problem is in part due to the gun lobby that you mentioned and the fact that no reasonable debate seems to be possible. Hopefully, one of the lessons of today will be that we need to have serious and measured debate about this issue in order to come to a fair and reasonable solution.

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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:54 PM

90. Very well said I am a gun owner myself, hunter, CCW

holder and a former NRA member. I think I dropped the NRA back when Wayne LaPeire took charge, never could stand the guy.

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Response to doc03 (Reply #90)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:59 PM

94. My time with the NRA was very short lived.

And short sighted on my part. Unless the entire board changes hands and they go back to what they used to be, I will never see eye to eye with them again. After the election in 2010, and all that bullshit they were pumping out, I let my membership expire.

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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:14 PM

95. To all former NRA Members

My hat's off to you for an being independent thinker. I've been in many situations and in my estimation possession of a firearm exacerbates the situation. Because they can right the wrong of some situation. In RVN I saw first hand some careless handling of weapons that left an impact on me to this day. Careless handling in the tent area.
Anyone wanting to tote should be held to a much higher standard and ethics. Likewise anyone purchasing anywhere needs to be pre-cleared.
The rights of a toter DO NOT trump the rights of a non-toter.

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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:39 PM

97. K&R n/t

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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:17 AM

102. My Wife and I have pistols, I have a vintage .303 rifle

and we have black powder replica weapons. Neither of us has ever been a member of the National Gun Nut Association. That's what I have been calling it for thirty years. Handguns should be licensed. Every gun owner should have to pass a gun safety course. Carrying while under the influence should be punished as driving under the influence.

And don't give me that crap about you need guns to defend your country against the government. If the government comes to take your guns, they won't send two polite men in blue. They'll send regular soldiers, with state of the art automatic weapons, state of the art body armor, an infantry fighting vehicle and a helicopter gunship and artillery on call.

Cold dead hand? That's what it will be.

Wolf

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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:04 AM

106. Deliver us all from "gun-nuts"

 

To me, when an adult male applies for a conceal/ carry permit, the
guy is basically admitting he's helpless - fearful that any contact
with other human beings - even in a supermarket - might reduce
him to a trembling, sniveling victim.
My neighbor ( who tops the scales at 250 pounds ) never leaves
home without strapping on his .45 automatic, yet he's oblivious to
the fact that his 120-pound wife manages to work, shop, jog, visit
relatives, attend meetings and travel out of town without "packing"
a handgun for self-defense. You'd think any husband would feel a
little humiliated, realizing the woman he married ( and her female
friends ) display more courage and common sense than he does.
The trouble with hard-core "gun nuts" is their child-like naivte,
their unwavering faith in the magical power of metal objects. I
think they actually believe that playing "Rambo" at a firing range,
spraying a few hundred bullets at a paper target can somehow
transform a coward into a hero.
Maybe some NRA fanatics assume we unarmed folks are impressed
and even intimidated by men who keep a mini-arsenal in their spare
bedroom, who spend weekends caressing and cleaning their pistols
and shotguns. We aren't.
Even if my neighbor could legally plant land mines in his front yard
and install rocket launchers on his roof , he would still be scared -
scared of criminals, scared of the government and probably worried
sick his fortress might collapse someday and crush him and all his
possessions.
















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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:06 AM

108. The Young Turks Ask The Right Question - Gun Nuts Be Warned You Won't Like The Message

[link:|

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Response to cantbeserious (Reply #108)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:14 AM

115. Awesome

I love Cenk.

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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:05 AM

114. I'm not a gun-nut but I do own a gun.

I have a permit to carry a concealed weapon. Most of the time my gun is at home.

I rook all the gun safety courses years ago. I refuse to give up my right to bear arms.

However, I do not see any reason that an individual should own an assault weapon.

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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:24 AM

117. Stop Teaching Gun Violence!

Computer games are used to teach math and other subjects. Videos are used to illustrate how to do math and other skills. Children learn how to do math from watching videos and playing computer games. Are we to believe that violent computer games, videos, and movies do not teach violence? Are we to believe that children decide to learn math from computer games, but turn off learning when the game involves shooting people? Are we to believe that children and young adults with mental health problems make this type of distinction? In other words, are we fools and idots? Will we continue to brainlessly accept the marketing spin of video and computer game profiteers when they assure us that violent games and videos do not affect behavior?

Oh, you say the people involved have a right to earn a living? Our Constitution is about life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, not life, liberty, and the pursuit of money. Violence training materials are certainly as big a public nuisance as organized crime. Stop violence education now!

Possession of movies, videos, and computer games that teach, illustrate, or depict gun violence should be banned. Possession of such should be totally illegal including existing products. In 1933, and for forty years thereafter, personal possession of gold was banned, and citizens were required to trade it in, especially gold coins. We can certainly do the same with violence training materials.

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Response to Maineman (Reply #117)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:19 AM

119. The problem is.....

That is exactly what the hardcore right-wingers want us to think(yes, it's true), that violent video games and R-rated movies are the problem, and not the fact that the Reagan administration gutted our mental health facilities and that the gun-nuts lobbies have tried to make it so anyone, anywhere, can have any kind of weapon, for any reason, etc.(they used to blame rock-and-roll for all kinds of stuff, too.)

In fact, not only is it true that 99% of violent video game players never, ever, commit any crimes using that as inspiration(except for the truly deranged, such as the VT shooter.), but the overall youth crime rate has actually gone DOWN over the past 20 years or so. And I seriously doubt that's coincidental, either.

If you want to worry about violent media at all, worry it getting into the hands of the very young, or deranged individuals or children who were abused(mainly physically) and/or neglected and are starting to show signs of serious aggression(unfortunately, it is indeed true that the large majority of both groups who never receive any real help or support, do end up in prison at some point.). Otherwise, we Democrats really ought to stray away from RW talking points....and blaming violent media is one of them.


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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:58 AM

118. I've nevee been an NRA member

 

and because of that didn't realize this about them. However just because a few extremely bad apples do these things is not a reason to take the rights away from all. We do however need to find a way fast to make it impossible for this to happen.

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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:35 AM

120. I too am a Former NRA Member

I hope to see a trend towards that. I too years ago-recognized the crazy seeping in-I agree the NRA used to be revered because they, once upon a time long ago--had Earned that status.

I have asked my lawmakers to refuse the NRA in their offices and to Return any/all contributions the NRA has afforded them.

I have Demanded Action-legislation toward reasonable control-that those bills are "on the top of the heap"
We can't have it both ways-full, unregulated guns access with wanton abandonment for all sensibility and recognition that what worked in 1791 Fails our 2012 Social Safety Needs!

Change is up to us-pushing and insisting our State and Federal Lawmakers listen to us AND Take Action. This will only be as effective as our persistence is strong and unified toward solution. I hope two weeks from now we are still as committed as we are this day.
Further, I will no longer shop in Any store that sells Baby Formula AND Guns/Ammo. Go to a damned store that is secure and dedicated to selling Only "gun stuff"

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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:41 AM

121. Who benefits from the massing shootings? The Gun Industry!

Nothing sells more guns like more gun violence.

I agree with everything you say about the NRA. They are an operating subsidiary of Faux News, the Official Misinformation Media Outlet for the Republican Party. Surprised they haven't started a "Tips on killing Socialists" feature in their newsletter.

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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:57 AM

123. I was talking to the teaheads at my job

about this and even some of the hardcore are at least open to thinking, now is the best time to start a national debate. I hope the President sees that and leads that, this could have been anyone of our children.

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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:02 AM

124. Great post, why dont you begin by making this discussion heard by the NRA

or sign the WH petitionon gun laws

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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:23 AM

128. I notice you are not offering to turn in your guns...

 

What law would you create to prevent this? Having a family member with emotional problems would require you to turn in your guns?

Mass confiscation?


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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:29 AM

130. I just wonder how many casualties are acceptable,

before most Americans admit we need some sort of change to the status quo, even slightly. 50, or 100, or 1000? These were real children hurt, not movie characters or comic book villains. The shrill screaming about gun control infringing on second amendment rights sounds really similar to kids trying to keep all their toys.

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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:10 PM

133. I'm a gun owner

as are my dad and brother.

My dad's gun was inherited from his dad, mine is recently purchased for target shooting, my brother is the only one of us that may have an actual *need* for a gun, being in a law enforcement related career.

We've been thinking about getting my wife a gun, for her protection. She has a lot of experience with guns and knows how to use one safely.

However, I've always been in favor of gun control. I don't care if the laws make it harder, or even impossible, to purchase guns.

Since I enjoy target shooting, I'd prefer to be able to continue to do that, but it's not that important to me.

I have never joined, and will never join, the NRA, I have absolutely zero use for them.

Unfortunately, I suspect there's little chance of real change coming from our government. The NRA wields too much clout and the Democratic Party has shown little courage in the past 20+ years to do anything they can't get full Republican buy-in on.

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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:12 PM

134. K&R!

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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:53 PM

135. Personally, I am anti-2nd Amendment

But I am a realistic enough to know that it would never be repealed. I thank you for your post, and appreciate your thoughts and words. I broke down crying at work when reading about this atrocity. It is absolutely horrible that this happened and more than likely will happen again. The discussion NEEDS to happen now, not later...

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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:01 PM

137. I have been so saddened by this terrible thing and thinking

The government should announce that those who have guns that are not registered and those holding those guns who are not background checked would have 3 months to get registered and background checked or turn in your gun. The consequences of not doing so is jail time if caught.

I know .....the problem is who has those 40% of guns not registered. Well if we can get the public to annoymously tell on some sort of hotline that they know of a person who has a non registered gun...as time goes by I think more and more guns will be registered. It would take some time.

I don't know just trying to find a way to stop this madness. The map I saw yesterday showed the USA with the most mass shootings of any where else in the world. Something has to be done.

If your child is showing mental health problems there has to be a better way to make sure he is seen by and evaluated by mental health professionals and cannot get guns until he is cleared by a professional of his illness if that is possible...in this case she had guns in the house she should not have had them where her son had access if she knew her son was having mental problems. But then who am I to judge she may have had them locked or somewhere else but he got them somehow.

I know I'm just thinking and maybe not correctly but just some thoughts to put down. Those children deserved better safety. My grandson is in a school that is not secure and I have complained about it. He is in Kindergarten and his teacher called me yesterday. We both know the school is not secure. I will be calling again the school district to get some action and I will tell them if they don't have the budget damnit call on the feds but get this school secure. Anyone can walk into this school grounds and hide in a small child's bathroom or a 5 year old walking to the office alone could be snatched. I know each circumstance is different but somehow we can make it less likely somehow. This is a scary time and I am totally pissed with ......."well I've been working here for 20 years and nothing has happened" bs. Yea sure!

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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:34 PM

139. Well said, and I agree

Former NRA (although concurrently with the ACLU) member, multi firearm owner, but crazy people shouldn't have guns.

All rights come with responsibilities.

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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:19 PM

146. same here nt

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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 06:29 PM

150. The best lowball

estimate is 270 million privately owned firearms in the US. To the NRA nuts I say, "No one is going to take your fucking guns. There are just too goddamn many of them" To my friends who are civilized people I say, "The fucking guns aren't going away. There are just too goddamn many of them. Someone please take it from there.

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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 06:47 PM

152. My late mother was a gun nut

She knew how I felt about it and she hid the guns from me.

Suddenly, she fell ill and was in the hospital, dx'd with a terminal illness.

Suddenly, I get a telephone call from a sibling who was very excited about one thing -- not Mother, but the guns she had.

Seems those guns, well ... who were they registered to? No one seemed to quite know.

My late mother had cancer and it was affecting her brain and the guns, where were they? She would not tell me!

My sibling wanted answers and/or the guns right away, like NOW as they may have been in my late father's name, sibling's name, or even Mother herself. No one seemed to know.

To add icing to the cake, Mother had several lawsuits going on when she died and had many bizarre thoughts towards the end of her life, before the diagnosis.

What I did:

I found those damned guns and I took them to the local Sheriff and filed out forms and had them melted down/destroyed being I had Power of Attorney.

*sigh* of relief from gun nut idiot sibling.

Did the idiot sibling learn anything? NO, still well-stocked and waiting for the next war is what is said now. Kinda scarey isn't it? What is this "next war" crap? again.

And to think, my new grand nephew could end up in THAT house; a 6 mos. old baby!?

for the world.

Glad you see the light and thanks for your words/post. I hope others will learn from the likes of you, stories like mine and whatever else it takes for them to see the reality of gun ownership -- it is not worth it! Hell, I lived in a large city for many years and have traveled the world and I have never wished I had a gun nor have I ever a need for one of them.

My interaction with guns is limited. It was an act of destruction, having one "destroyed" which was not easy task btw. Dare I suggest that it is perhaps easier to obtain a gun that get rid of run of the damned things?

& recommend.

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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 02:38 AM

159. Bulls-eye! Right On Target.

Last edited Sun Dec 16, 2012, 12:02 PM - Edit history (3)

Just saw this thread and read your writing. I feel the same way. I posted this as a reply to another thread, but realized it more properly belongs here. (I hope I'm not breaking any rules by double-posting.) But I wanted you to realize that you're not alone, Glassunion. Not by a long shot . . .

...................................

I hope we start moving in the direction of prudent, sensible gun control by creating:

1.) A Federal database/agency to track all gun owners and their firearms.
2.) Permanent titles to follow each gun, in the manner of automobile titles.
3.) A national buy-back program for all handguns. (It's always amazed me that sawed-off shotguns are outlawed because they're too easily concealed, but .357 and .44 handguns, along with 20+ round magazines for Glocks and other semi-autos are just fine, thank you very much . . .)
4.) Tracked ballistics on every gun sold. (Fire the gun once; keep its ballistic signature on file in a national database.)
5.) Higher pricing and taxes on ammo.
6.) More resources devoted to public health issues (both mental and physical).
7.) In-depth, mandatory training and proficiency testing for gun owners (ala driving privileges and the DMV).
8.) Longer waiting periods and deeper background checks.
9.) New legislation that outlaws assault weapons and high capacity magazines.
10.) A legislative/lobbying counterweight to the NRA as powerful and effective as that now ethically-compromised and morally-bankrupt right-wing organization.

We won't solve the problem of American gun crime overnight. But we can start moving in the right direction; we can begin "to drain the toxic swamp" of too-easy gun access, little or no firearms training and out-of-control handgun proliferation. We can take a longer, harder look at our gun-loving, kill-crazy culture that elevates the fetishistic worship of handguns and assault weapons over the peace and safety of its citizens.

I know I have. Sandy Hook was the tipping point for me.

Ex-marine and Current Gun Owner

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Response to cer7711 (Reply #159)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 01:30 PM

165. Welcome to DU!

I'd love to continue this discussion with you at some future time. However the points you bring up, would require more time than I currently have at the moment.

Semper-Fi

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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 04:23 AM

161. reinstate the assault weapon law that expired as a start?

I remember the president mentioning that and the NRA? smashed that idea. President also mentioned code? to follow ammo? some way to track ammo. That was early on the first election and went nowhere fast.

It's never to late to require more training of gun owners. However people have millions of guns already, those guns have a life of decades.

What I suggest is something in ammo (and guns) to make it easy to track/detect? not a number but magnet?,radiation?, an odor?. Could be a very slight change but dogs and machines can detect easy.

also suggest a gps implant built in the frame? of all guns so when/if they are stolen they can be tracked right to the thief.

With an easier to detect component perhaps gun or just ammo?? movement can be noticed entering a parking lot or on the roads, a warning well before any attack occurs.

such a fear now waiting for the next unbalanced person to go postal on innocents.

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Response to Sunlei (Reply #161)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 01:19 PM

163. Just some info for you.

The Assault Weapon Ban (AWB) had a few faults. In my opinion there are aspects of it that I would like to see re-instated, but on the whole it was ineffective. The issue I mainly have is that it banned the manufacture or import of certain firearms based solely on a combination of cosmetic (not functional) features of firearms. So basically you could still technically have an assault weapon as long as it did not reach the combination of cosmetic features. I'll give you a few examples to explain.

The AWB only had an effect on semi-automatic firearms. If you are unaware, a "semi-automatic" firearm is a firearm that when you squeeze the trigger one bullet is fired, and then the firearm will cycle another bullet into the firearm where the shooter then has to squeeze the trigger again for another bullet to fire. If the shooter squeezes and holds the trigger only one bullet will fire.

The AWB in regards to rifles. A rifle was considered an Assault Weapon if:
If it has a detachable magazine: Basically a box that holds the bullets that can be removed from the firearm by the press of a button on the weapon. If a tool is required to remove the firearm's magazine, it did not qualify as an assault weapon.

And any two or more of the following features.
Folding or telescoping stock: This is the rear end of the rifle that you put up to your shoulder. Folding means that the sock can be folder over to any given side of the rifle. Telescoping simply means that it moves in and out.

Pistol grip: This is simply the grip of the firearm that is held by the trigger hand. If it protruded straight down instead of being integral to the stock, it was considered a pistol grip.

Bayonet mount: This is simply a lug (mounting point) on the end of the rifle where a bayonet (long slender knife) could be attached to the firearm.

Flash suppressor, or threaded barrel designed to accommodate one: This is the small device that is attached to the tip of a rifle barrel, that directs the burning gas that exhausts from the end of a rifle.

Grenade launcher: This is a muzzle device that enables launching or firing rifle grenades, though this applies only to muzzle mounted grenade launchers and not those mounted externally.

These are all of the combinations necessary for a rifle to be considered an assault weapon. So basically, you could take the exact same rifle that the shooter at this school used, file off the bayonet lug, and take a saw to cut off the flash suppressor at the threads and the firearm would no longer be considered an assault weapon. Kind of silly if you think about it. All of the features defined in the AWB do not make the firearm any more or less lethal.

There was however one aspect of the AWB that I feel reduced the lethality of the firearm. Regardless if the firearm was a rifle, pistol or shotgun, there was a magazine limit. All magazines were limited to 10 rounds of ammunition. This I feel reduces the lethality of the firearm and is where I think we should re-examine our efforts. This is definitely a subject of discussion that we should have.

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Response to Sunlei (Reply #161)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 01:28 PM

164. As to your other points.

Training: I agree. Sure there are a lot of gun owners out there. But if licensing is required for ownership, there can be a training requirement.

As far as ammunition, all ammunition can be seen on x-ray machines and can be picked up by metal detectors. As far as odor, there are machines that can detect the gun powder and dogs can and are trained to pick up on ammunition already. I could not take even one the smallest of bullets through an airport without it being detected (as long as TSA is doing their job).

It would be near impossible to GPS a firearm. Due to the size and battery requirements required to basically lo-jack a firearm.

Thanks for the discussion.

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Response to Glassunion (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 07:09 AM

167. NRA

 

Since you can't think straight, maybe you ought not to be the one deciding policy based on emotion.

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Response to jimineez1 (Reply #167)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 11:27 AM

168. Wait... What?

Your subject does not match the body of your post.

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