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Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:34 PM

I REMEMBER DU

Last edited Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:13 PM - Edit history (2)

It was never, ever, EVER like this.

Can we clean house now, please?

Can we return to a basic understanding of right and wrong?

Here's a litmus test: anyone who posted the story about the Chinese guy with the knife in order to mitigate the damage to their raison d'etre...GONE.

For openers.

(on edit: I do not mean anyone who posted the story because it is news...I mean anyone who posted it to say "Durr Hurr see, other things kill people too, Hurr"...and you know who the fuck you are)

I remember DU, and THIS ain't it. I am AMAZED at what is tolerated, even today. Even today. Especially today.

I remember DU.

Do you?



(cross-posted in Meta...go ahead and lock it...I remember DU)

346 replies, 23107 views

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Arrow 346 replies Author Time Post
Reply I REMEMBER DU (Original post)
WilliamPitt Dec 2012 OP
2on2u Dec 2012 #1
hfojvt Dec 2012 #318
2on2u Dec 2012 #321
morningfog Dec 2012 #2
Arugula Latte Dec 2012 #9
99Forever Dec 2012 #21
Happyhippychick Dec 2012 #23
RetroLounge Dec 2012 #29
kestrel91316 Dec 2012 #50
Logical Dec 2012 #64
morningfog Dec 2012 #68
Logical Dec 2012 #75
morningfog Dec 2012 #78
Logical Dec 2012 #82
morningfog Dec 2012 #86
Logical Dec 2012 #88
morningfog Dec 2012 #90
Logical Dec 2012 #95
morningfog Dec 2012 #100
WilliamPitt Dec 2012 #104
Logical Dec 2012 #105
WilliamPitt Dec 2012 #107
morningfog Dec 2012 #116
SkyDaddy7 Dec 2012 #151
morningfog Dec 2012 #154
LanternWaste Dec 2012 #195
cleanhippie Dec 2012 #199
SkyDaddy7 Dec 2012 #145
morningfog Dec 2012 #149
Spitfire of ATJ Dec 2012 #188
JimDandy Dec 2012 #222
godai Dec 2012 #97
Logical Dec 2012 #101
Lex Dec 2012 #103
Logical Dec 2012 #114
godai Dec 2012 #122
dchill Dec 2012 #161
Logical Dec 2012 #164
Chemisse Dec 2012 #204
Logical Dec 2012 #208
Chemisse Dec 2012 #239
AlexSatan Dec 2012 #320
Kalidurga Dec 2012 #328
AlexSatan Dec 2012 #333
Kalidurga Dec 2012 #335
AlexSatan Dec 2012 #338
UndahCovah Dec 2012 #189
plantwomyn Dec 2012 #299
fightthegoodfightnow Dec 2012 #304
reACTIONary Dec 2012 #229
tritsofme Dec 2012 #256
MNBrewer Dec 2012 #285
reACTIONary Dec 2012 #314
kooljerk666 Dec 2012 #292
AlexSatan Dec 2012 #319
DisgustipatedinCA Dec 2012 #126
proud2BlibKansan Dec 2012 #235
llmart Dec 2012 #240
Squinch Dec 2012 #259
underseasurveyor Dec 2012 #266
baldguy Dec 2012 #119
Logical Dec 2012 #129
morningfog Dec 2012 #225
heaven05 Dec 2012 #73
byeya Dec 2012 #79
baldguy Dec 2012 #124
keroro gunsou Dec 2012 #157
baldguy Dec 2012 #167
wyldwolf Dec 2012 #174
robinlynne Dec 2012 #176
lbrtbell Dec 2012 #202
morningfog Dec 2012 #207
Ter Dec 2012 #297
Laura PourMeADrink Dec 2012 #220
Squinch Dec 2012 #257
lbrtbell Dec 2012 #279
Squinch Dec 2012 #298
laundry_queen Dec 2012 #332
wtmusic Dec 2012 #217
patrice Dec 2012 #241
ThatPoetGuy Dec 2012 #249
Squinch Dec 2012 #253
NRaleighLiberal Dec 2012 #254
Scootaloo Dec 2012 #268
villager Dec 2012 #3
ThatPoetGuy Dec 2012 #250
TransitJohn Dec 2012 #323
villager Dec 2012 #336
DoBotherMe Dec 2012 #4
JuniperLea Dec 2012 #5
Democracyinkind Dec 2012 #289
Paladin Dec 2012 #6
d_b Dec 2012 #7
jsr Dec 2012 #8
Arugula Latte Dec 2012 #10
loyalkydem Dec 2012 #11
Whisp Dec 2012 #12
nolabear Dec 2012 #13
WilliamPitt Dec 2012 #17
renie408 Dec 2012 #14
Robb Dec 2012 #15
upaloopa Dec 2012 #16
99Forever Dec 2012 #18
AldoLeopold Dec 2012 #19
Curmudgeoness Dec 2012 #194
AldoLeopold Dec 2012 #212
lbrtbell Dec 2012 #280
wilt the stilt Dec 2012 #291
Bluenorthwest Dec 2012 #303
AldoLeopold Dec 2012 #327
hfojvt Dec 2012 #322
AldoLeopold Dec 2012 #324
hfojvt Dec 2012 #334
Happyhippychick Dec 2012 #20
Logical Dec 2012 #25
Happyhippychick Dec 2012 #31
Logical Dec 2012 #39
Happyhippychick Dec 2012 #46
baldguy Dec 2012 #128
DisgustipatedinCA Dec 2012 #132
Jakes Progress Dec 2012 #178
Logical Dec 2012 #180
Jakes Progress Dec 2012 #183
Logical Dec 2012 #185
Democracyinkind Dec 2012 #290
WilliamPitt Dec 2012 #34
morningfog Dec 2012 #60
Logical Dec 2012 #71
morningfog Dec 2012 #77
Logical Dec 2012 #87
ProfessorGAC Dec 2012 #301
morningfog Dec 2012 #308
Hissyspit Dec 2012 #227
SunSeeker Dec 2012 #281
Hissyspit Dec 2012 #283
Logical Dec 2012 #22
renie408 Dec 2012 #32
Logical Dec 2012 #36
lbrtbell Dec 2012 #282
kestrel91316 Dec 2012 #41
Logical Dec 2012 #49
kestrel91316 Dec 2012 #89
Logical Dec 2012 #98
AtheistCrusader Dec 2012 #135
Codeine Dec 2012 #175
ragemage Dec 2012 #48
Logical Dec 2012 #55
ragemage Dec 2012 #66
AtheistCrusader Dec 2012 #136
godai Dec 2012 #56
morningfog Dec 2012 #65
morningfog Dec 2012 #63
Logical Dec 2012 #81
morningfog Dec 2012 #84
Logical Dec 2012 #92
morningfog Dec 2012 #93
Logical Dec 2012 #96
renie408 Dec 2012 #112
Logical Dec 2012 #123
renie408 Dec 2012 #295
primavera Dec 2012 #134
Logical Dec 2012 #141
primavera Dec 2012 #159
Logical Dec 2012 #221
primavera Dec 2012 #245
xtraxritical Dec 2012 #218
Raksha Dec 2012 #168
bench scientist Dec 2012 #294
baldguy Dec 2012 #137
Logical Dec 2012 #142
baldguy Dec 2012 #163
Logical Dec 2012 #165
baldguy Dec 2012 #169
Logical Dec 2012 #172
baldguy Dec 2012 #177
Logical Dec 2012 #191
baldguy Dec 2012 #198
Logical Dec 2012 #200
baldguy Dec 2012 #210
Logical Dec 2012 #211
baldguy Dec 2012 #213
Logical Dec 2012 #216
xtraxritical Dec 2012 #223
LanternWaste Dec 2012 #117
BlancheSplanchnik Dec 2012 #148
Jakes Progress Dec 2012 #179
ReRe Dec 2012 #186
Logical Dec 2012 #187
LanternWaste Dec 2012 #197
Logical Dec 2012 #201
ReRe Dec 2012 #231
bongbong Dec 2012 #24
jeff47 Dec 2012 #26
frylock Dec 2012 #27
spanone Dec 2012 #28
Whovian Dec 2012 #30
onehandle Dec 2012 #33
godai Dec 2012 #47
ThatPoetGuy Dec 2012 #331
kestrel91316 Dec 2012 #35
Cooley Hurd Dec 2012 #37
Tx4obama Dec 2012 #38
WilliamPitt Dec 2012 #40
Tx4obama Dec 2012 #42
WilliamPitt Dec 2012 #52
Tx4obama Dec 2012 #58
WilliamPitt Dec 2012 #74
Tx4obama Dec 2012 #85
WilliamPitt Dec 2012 #91
muriel_volestrangler Dec 2012 #106
WilliamPitt Dec 2012 #110
virgogal Dec 2012 #127
WilliamPitt Dec 2012 #131
Hissyspit Dec 2012 #284
fightthegoodfightnow Dec 2012 #307
NYC Liberal Dec 2012 #111
nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 #43
gademocrat7 Dec 2012 #44
Dalai_1 Dec 2012 #45
s-cubed Dec 2012 #51
jsr Dec 2012 #53
secondvariety Dec 2012 #54
WilliamPitt Dec 2012 #57
TwilightGardener Dec 2012 #59
malaise Dec 2012 #61
antigone382 Dec 2012 #62
WilliamPitt Dec 2012 #80
antigone382 Dec 2012 #102
zeemike Dec 2012 #182
llmart Dec 2012 #244
zeemike Dec 2012 #269
Squinch Dec 2012 #302
llmart Dec 2012 #309
Squinch Dec 2012 #313
zeemike Dec 2012 #310
Squinch Dec 2012 #312
zeemike Dec 2012 #316
Squinch Dec 2012 #317
zeemike Dec 2012 #337
TomClash Dec 2012 #67
SunSeeker Dec 2012 #272
Spryguy Dec 2012 #69
heaven05 Dec 2012 #70
onecent Dec 2012 #72
fadedrose Dec 2012 #76
WilliamPitt Dec 2012 #83
MANative Dec 2012 #94
underpants Dec 2012 #99
DonCoquixote Dec 2012 #108
DirkGently Dec 2012 #109
WilliamPitt Dec 2012 #120
DirkGently Dec 2012 #138
WilliamPitt Dec 2012 #143
DirkGently Dec 2012 #190
tiny elvis Dec 2012 #263
joe_sixpack Dec 2012 #162
Duval Dec 2012 #113
NWHarkness Dec 2012 #115
patrice Dec 2012 #233
Throckmorton Dec 2012 #118
Chorophyll Dec 2012 #121
LanternWaste Dec 2012 #125
Hissyspit Dec 2012 #130
joe_sixpack Dec 2012 #133
WilliamPitt Dec 2012 #139
joe_sixpack Dec 2012 #146
WilliamPitt Dec 2012 #150
SunSeeker Dec 2012 #252
Squinch Dec 2012 #264
Odin2005 Dec 2012 #326
Nevernose Dec 2012 #140
amuse bouche Dec 2012 #144
neverforget Dec 2012 #147
shenmue Dec 2012 #152
secondwind Dec 2012 #153
displacedtexan Dec 2012 #155
LongTomH Dec 2012 #156
liberalmuse Dec 2012 #158
Le Taz Hot Dec 2012 #160
HuskiesHowls Dec 2012 #166
Ash_F Dec 2012 #170
AAO Dec 2012 #171
johnp3907 Dec 2012 #173
Jakes Progress Dec 2012 #181
AlecBGreen Dec 2012 #184
Great Caesars Ghost Dec 2012 #192
LynneSin Dec 2012 #193
Solly Mack Dec 2012 #196
JohnnyRingo Dec 2012 #203
juajen Dec 2012 #205
WheelWalker Dec 2012 #206
Lint Head Dec 2012 #209
Chemisse Dec 2012 #214
Flatpicker Dec 2012 #215
shcrane71 Dec 2012 #219
patrice Dec 2012 #224
SunSeeker Dec 2012 #274
patrice Dec 2012 #276
SunSeeker Dec 2012 #277
Danmel Dec 2012 #226
Buddaman Dec 2012 #228
proud2BlibKansan Dec 2012 #230
patrice Dec 2012 #234
Hissyspit Dec 2012 #246
proud2BlibKansan Dec 2012 #265
SunSeeker Dec 2012 #273
Hotler Dec 2012 #232
patrice Dec 2012 #237
Hotler Dec 2012 #247
patrice Dec 2012 #251
Zorra Dec 2012 #300
patrice Dec 2012 #329
Zorra Dec 2012 #339
patrice Dec 2012 #340
Zorra Dec 2012 #344
patrice Dec 2012 #341
patrice Dec 2012 #342
patrice Dec 2012 #343
Zorra Dec 2012 #346
llmart Dec 2012 #236
backscatter712 Dec 2012 #238
steve2470 Dec 2012 #262
patrice Dec 2012 #242
TroglodyteScholar Dec 2012 #243
kaiden Dec 2012 #248
cynatnite Dec 2012 #260
Wind Dancer Dec 2012 #286
lupinella Dec 2012 #255
cynatnite Dec 2012 #258
H2O Man Dec 2012 #261
Squinch Dec 2012 #267
SunSeeker Dec 2012 #278
Squinch Dec 2012 #296
October Dec 2012 #270
jsr Dec 2012 #293
MotherPetrie Dec 2012 #271
Coyotl Dec 2012 #275
King_Klonopin Dec 2012 #287
world wide wally Dec 2012 #288
Zorra Dec 2012 #305
FreakinDJ Dec 2012 #306
LiberalLoner Dec 2012 #311
sarcasmo Dec 2012 #315
Odin2005 Dec 2012 #325
Ninga Dec 2012 #330
WillyT Dec 2012 #345

Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:35 PM

1. +1000.... and if you need some threadlocker it's in my sig. n/t

 

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Response to 2on2u (Reply #1)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:33 PM

318. meh, the more things change, the more they stay the same

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Response to hfojvt (Reply #318)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:05 PM

321. I don't/didn't want it locked but the op mentioned it himself... my bad. n/t

 

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:36 PM

2. I say close the gungeon and ban anyone left touting RW/NRA/gun apologia.

This is a Democratic site. It is time to, as a party, step up and no longer allow such dangerousness and offensiveness in OUR party.

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Response to morningfog (Reply #2)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:38 PM

9. Agree.

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Response to morningfog (Reply #2)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:44 PM

21. I second that!

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Response to morningfog (Reply #2)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:45 PM

23. Totally agree

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Response to morningfog (Reply #2)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:47 PM

29. Agree

Close the gungeon and ban the NRA asshats

RL

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Response to morningfog (Reply #2)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:54 PM

50. +1 000 000 000 000 000 000 000

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Response to morningfog (Reply #2)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:58 PM

64. I belong to the gungeon, and own guns and HATE the NRA, when a group can allow Ted Nugent....

to be on their Board, then you know they are idiots. Any support of the NRA should be locked.

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Response to Logical (Reply #64)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:00 PM

68. You are one of the worst offenders today. You are an embarrassment to DU.

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Response to morningfog (Reply #68)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:03 PM

75. What have I said that is wrong? Quit whining and just ignore me.

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Response to Logical (Reply #75)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:04 PM

78. No, I will keep calling you out.

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Response to morningfog (Reply #78)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:06 PM

82. Please post your solution to this problem. I cannot wait to read it.

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Response to Logical (Reply #82)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:07 PM

86. Why should I? You can't change someone's religion.

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Response to morningfog (Reply #86)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:08 PM

88. In other words you just want to complain and not solve the issue. Perfect!!

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Response to Logical (Reply #88)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:09 PM

90. Get lost.

There are some good threads if you cared about more than fucking your toys.

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Response to morningfog (Reply #90)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:11 PM

95. LOL. Do you have any actual information about the problem? Or just want to insult people?

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Response to Logical (Reply #95)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:13 PM

100. Pearls before swine.

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Response to morningfog (Reply #100)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:16 PM

104. Seriously.

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Response to morningfog (Reply #100)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:16 PM

105. LOL, not sure if you are serious. Incoherent reply's. Nonsense. weird. n-t

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Response to Logical (Reply #105)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:17 PM

107. I genuinely hope you're catching a paycheck for this.

If not, it's just really sad.

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Response to Logical (Reply #105)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:19 PM

116. I am quite serious. You are simply not worth engaging in actual discussion.

You too blinded by your paranoia, your fear, and probably your hate. You care more about a weapon than the consequence of your culture. I do not care at all how you feel, what you think or what approaches you will inevitably dismiss. You are on the wrong side of this. You can not be educated or reasoned out of your problem. Only you can step up and grow as a person. Like I said, you are a part of the problem, generally and here at DU.

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Response to morningfog (Reply #116)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:49 PM

151. Just like ALL Christians are part of the problem

with America being so damn dumb when it comes to science?

I like this logic!!!

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Response to SkyDaddy7 (Reply #151)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:50 PM

154. Oh boy! Another one. All out from under your rocks.

Time to dance with your toys while children bleed.

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Response to SkyDaddy7 (Reply #151)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:40 PM

195. If that means I'm part of your imaginary problem

If that means I'm part of your little imaginary problem with my faith and my college degree both worn proudly, I'm kinda o-kay with that.

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Response to Logical (Reply #88)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:50 PM

199. Pretty much sums it, and the OP, right up.

Think differently from me, feel the purge.


Sounds more like Freerepublic than DU.

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Response to morningfog (Reply #86)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:45 PM

145. Seriously, lets here your solution!!

Otherwise why continue crying about stuff you have no control over?

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Response to SkyDaddy7 (Reply #145)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:47 PM

149. Criticisng the gun culture that facilitated this is crying?

Calling for an end to this nonsense and calling for the beginning of strong gun control is crying?

And why are you are so easy to concede defeat?

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Response to SkyDaddy7 (Reply #145)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:32 PM

188. Ah,...but we COULD have control if we actually TRIED.

Namely, let the asshats have their guns,...just no bullets.

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Response to Spitfire of ATJ (Reply #188)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:27 PM

222. LOL.

Let them blungeon each other with them.

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Response to Logical (Reply #82)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:12 PM

97. You regularly post this, then ignore all possible solutions. n/t

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Response to godai (Reply #97)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:14 PM

101. Name ONE that I ignored? How do you remove 300 million guns from being used by a nut?

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Response to Logical (Reply #101)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:15 PM

103. One at a fucking time.

Let's get started and quit cowering.



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Response to Lex (Reply #103)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:19 PM

114. Here is the problem from people like you.....

You make silly simple minded statements like 'remove guns from people' with no actual implementable plans to do it.

How do you remove gun from the 150 million gun owners? Knock on their door and ask for the gun? What basis?

Name 10 senators who would introduce a bill to remove guns from legal gun owners.

Emotion is not a thought process.

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Response to Logical (Reply #114)


Response to Logical (Reply #114)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:58 PM

161. Make it illegal to own any semi-automatic weapon.

Make it illegal to discharge any weapon.
Imprison offenders.
Three sensible steps.

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Response to dchill (Reply #161)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:00 PM

164. So only single shot guns? Collect the rest? Collect 300 million guns?

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Response to Logical (Reply #164)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:55 PM

204. Why would you have to collect any guns?

Why not just tighten the regulations from this day forward? Do back up checks on everybody (close the gun show loophole), require people to keep their weapons out of the hands of people who have not passed that kind of check, and ban semi-automatics.

It will take time to solve the problem, but at least it would be a first step.

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Response to Chemisse (Reply #204)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:00 PM

208. OK, I see that point. But my worry is the 300 million guns out there. The black market would....

be huge. And a nut would obtain a semi-auto. But you are right, in 100 years it might be much better.

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Response to Logical (Reply #208)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:54 PM

239. It would be wrong to collect guns that people bought in then-lawful purchases.

But maybe we could offer buy backs, or trade ins for different guns.

The criminals will always find a way to get guns, but those who are mentally ill may not have the same resources to get access. They are not as likely to have the contacts and also may not have the mental organization skills to pursue hard-to-find weapons.

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Response to Chemisse (Reply #204)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:49 PM

320. You do realize that

 

"Less than 1% of firearms will ever be used in the commission of a crime."

"93% of guns used in crimes are obtained illegally (i.e., not at gun stores or gun shows)."

I'm not sure your solutions will have much impact.

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Response to AlexSatan (Reply #320)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:28 PM

328. So 150,000 gun crimes a year is acceptable?

10000 deaths a year are ok as well?

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Response to Kalidurga (Reply #328)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:10 PM

333. Of course not

 

No more than 750,000 aggravated assault crimes per year are acceptable.

We should make laws which make them illegal, right?

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Response to AlexSatan (Reply #333)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 06:06 PM

335. They are already illegal...

so what is your solution. The status quo?

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Response to Kalidurga (Reply #335)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 07:26 PM

338. That's my point

 

I don't have a solution to prevent it.

Making it illegal will not stop it.

Outlawing guns will not make guns go away from the hands of criminals.

I have no problem with a week waiting period. I don't have a problem with psych evals. Registration for everyone would not be Constitutional since one reason why have guns is to prevent the gov't from ignoring the Constitution.

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Response to dchill (Reply #161)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:32 PM

189. Question

 

"Make it illegal"

"Make it illegal"

How? Somebody pointed out that only a handful of senators would even attempt to introduce such a bill, and even so it would never make it out of committee.

The phrases "make it illegal" and "start with one gun at a time" are kind of pointless due to the legal process required--you can't wave a magic wand.

I personally believe that we need to stop raging bad and forth over guns-goodvsguns-bad for now. It is a topic that requires logical consideration, and nobody, NOBODY is capable of rational thought so soon after what happened today.

Those kids were 5 years old. They still believed in santa. For now, that right there is enough to overwhelm me...Their parents have holiday gifts for them in the closet. Imagine the parents of those kids, standing in their child's bedroom, looking at the dirty laundry on the floor that always exasperated them... There are tears dripping on my keyboard, I can't even start to think about political ramifications or anything else....God have mercy....

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Response to UndahCovah (Reply #189)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 08:03 AM

299. Jon Stewart

Did a bit on this BS the other night.

"NOBODY is capable of rational thought so soon after what happened today."

How long do we wait before we ARE capable of rational thought?

A week? A month?

How long has it been since there has NOT been a violent gun death of an innocent child in this county for over a week?

It is getting to the point now that even massacres are happening on a weekly basis.

Waiting for a time when there HASN'T been a tragedy has become impossible. And therefore a straw man argument.

And don't flame me as anti-gun. I own more than one. I also have NO problem taking full responsibility for how they are used, who uses them.

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Response to UndahCovah (Reply #189)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 08:26 AM

304. Now is EXACTLY the Time

The notion we should all calm down is EXACTLY why we are in this situation today....indifference....until it happens again.

Time to act is now. In their honor. To give meaning to their lives.

If you can't distinguish between reckless dangerous guns used not for sport but for terrorism, then I suspect you are indeed incapable of rational thought. Don't be surprised if the response is to take away all guns even if I disagree with that.

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Response to Logical (Reply #114)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:39 PM

229. Outlawing and eliminating guns is not a practical problem....

Conceptually it is simple. It takes time, but as time goes on - less guns, guns are less popular and they eventually become contained.

You start by progressively restricting the sale of guns and accessories. Large capacity magazines, etc. Restrict ammunition sales. Then further restrictions on the type of weapons, especially handguns. Semi automatic handguns, or double action guns, etc. Keep eliminating and restricting the sale of ever widening categories.

Progressively restrict rifles - First assault rifles, however you might want to arbitrarily define them. This is like restricting cigarette to plain generic packaging. It makes the product less attractive, less fun, harder to market. Eventually get rid of automatic rifles altogether. Just single shot bolt action "hunting rifles".

Raise the bar on licensing, carrying, transporting and storing them, and start to be more aggressive about enforcement.

As more and more restrictions encumber ownership and make it harder and harder to market and sell guns, less will be sold and the number of guns will eventually start to decrease and they will circulate less. Rather than buy new guns, older guns will be resold and the number per capita will go down. Guns are less and less popular anyway - as the population becomes more dense and urban, fewer and fewer people will even bother. Younger folks will loose interest and older folks will fade away.

Eventually, pass a law that gun enthusiasts must keep their guns locked up at a registered gun range or hunting lodge. Even fewer folks will want them, own them or worry about them. They will be contained, restricted and generally - but not completely - prohibited. Good enough for government work.

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Response to reACTIONary (Reply #229)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:33 PM

256. If you plan to completely disregard the Constitution.

Not a problem at all!

And if anyone dissents, we can just jail them or something...

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Response to tritsofme (Reply #256)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:25 AM

285. Repealing the 2nd amendment.

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Response to tritsofme (Reply #256)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:37 AM

314. The constitution is not a problem at all, despite its recent revision...

...by an activist judiciary. The court did not establish an unrestricted and absolute right of anyone and everyone to own any and all weapons, and they clearly limited the rational to "self defense within the home". That leaves a lot of room for restrictions, bans, and encumbrances.

For instance, restricting gun ownership to a single shot 22 caliber pistol painted bright international orange that can only be transported outside the home disassembled might be good enough to pass constitutional muster. Along with onerous and expensive licensing requirements. It might also be possible to put further restrictions on households with children.

As far as dissent is concerned, dissent is protected by the first amendment. Dissent all you want. If you actually do break the law, however, you are subject to punishment and that is quite reasonable and just.

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Response to reACTIONary (Reply #229)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 07:28 AM

292. 10 shot limit in all magazine & clips, turn in your old ones or jail & seized home..........

 

.........pay people to rat out clip hoarders & sales.

This is kind of reasonable & even allows old school front line combat weapons such as a .45 Colt pistol or M-1 Garand.


One problem is even if this punk only had revolvers, with a bunch of speed loaders he could killed just as many people.
Even 150 year old percussion cap pistols are brutally deadly, they just take 2 minutes to reload, so there is no real solution other than total outlawing all guns.

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Response to Logical (Reply #114)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:35 PM

319. Well duh. We remove them

 

like we removed all of the illegal drugs!

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Response to Logical (Reply #101)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:25 PM

126. just go the fuck away. Please. (there, I was nice about it)

Can't you see that the vast majority of people here have no use for your utterances and legalistic theories in support of murder weapons on a day when Kindergartners were lined up and shot through the head. WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU? WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU? WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU?

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Response to DisgustipatedinCA (Reply #126)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:47 PM

235. +1,000,000

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Response to DisgustipatedinCA (Reply #126)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:55 PM

240. +1,000,000,000,000

Even on a thread where we're calling for getting these idiots off DU, we end up with this. And on a day like today no less.

Pitiful excuse for a human being and we have to have it on DU???

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Response to DisgustipatedinCA (Reply #126)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:44 PM

259. Amen. The self justification of these people, on this day, is evil.

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Response to DisgustipatedinCA (Reply #126)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:12 AM

266. 1,000,000

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Response to Logical (Reply #64)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:21 PM

119. You claim to hate the NRA, but you carry their water for them every day.

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Response to baldguy (Reply #119)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:27 PM

129. Wow, I love this argument, please show ONE post where I defend the NRA or where I have....

said my rights to own guns are being attacked. Just ONE?

If you are correct it should be easy for you!

Want a link to some posts where I TRASH the NRA? I have many.

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Response to Logical (Reply #129)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:34 PM

225. You are the NRA poster boy. Except, you do it, maybe without even realizing it.

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Response to morningfog (Reply #2)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:02 PM

73. +10000

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Response to morningfog (Reply #2)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:04 PM

79. +++!

 

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Response to morningfog (Reply #2)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:23 PM

124. +1000

The easy availability of guns is anathema to a free society.

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Response to baldguy (Reply #124)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:54 PM

157. adjustment.... please bear with me...

easy access to weapons and little access to proper mental health care is the bane of a free and safe society.

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Response to keroro gunsou (Reply #157)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:04 PM

167. Of course you are correct - free health care & expensive guns for a free, safe & sane society

So it stands to reason that the RW pushes for free guns & expensive healthcare.

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Response to morningfog (Reply #2)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:10 PM

174. yes. never quite understood what they were doing here, anyway

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Response to morningfog (Reply #2)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:11 PM

176. yes!

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Response to morningfog (Reply #2)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:54 PM

202. WTH?!?

I don't like it when people disagree with me, but I'll defend to the death their right to an opinion.

There is no "litmus test" to be a Democrat. We Democrats have a wide range of views, and that's where we get our strength and inclusiveness.

If we're going to expect people to march in lockstep with a certain set of views, we'd be no better than Republicans.

You want to know the DU that I remember? The DU where people could debate freely.

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Response to lbrtbell (Reply #202)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:57 PM

207. We don't tolerate anti-choice, homphobia, sexism, racism. We don't need lockstep,

but we don't have to tolerate dangerous and archaic bullshit. They can have their opinion. I would prefer they have it on other gun-humping sites.

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Response to morningfog (Reply #207)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 07:54 AM

297. You're right about the last three...

 

...But you can be pro-life here, or at the very least anti-Roe vs. Wade.

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Response to lbrtbell (Reply #202)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:25 PM

220. Exactly ! "The DU where people could debate freely." Then egotists fucked it up

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Response to lbrtbell (Reply #202)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:40 PM

257. I defend their right to an opinion, but not to a gun. Their gun is violating my rights.

Debate it all you want. After the conversation is over, 20 babies will still be dead, and anything that could possibly be said pales next to that fact.

No one has the right to take a gun and shoot up a bunch of 5,6,7 and 8 year olds. Someone has done that. We need to do whatever needs to be done to prevent that from happening again. And that means restricting guns.

And I don't really care to hear any more idiotic "spoons kill people" arguments. I've heard them all. They're stupid.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #257)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:31 AM

279. What's stupid is not listening to reason

This shooter, like all shooters, could make weapons as deadly as guns.

Banning guns won't stop these crimes. If you're serious about wanting to stop the crimes, then you'll see that people with severe mental health issues are the ones committing these crimes.

They need treatment BEFORE they get to the point where they'll pick up a gun OR go online to find instructions on making a bomb OR burning down a building full of kids, or whatever. If the person can't be treated, he/she needs to be taken off the streets for everyone's protection.

Until you do something about the source of these crimes--the murderers--they will never stop.

And until you, personally, start talking about the source of these crimes--severely mentally ill people--you're part of the problem.

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Response to lbrtbell (Reply #279)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 08:00 AM

298. Yes, banning guns WILL stop people from committing gun slaughter. Your argument is ridiculous

and somewhere you know it. The solution to gun slaughter is not the eradication of mental illness. Spew your nonsense all you want, it still doesn't make any sense.

Now go on. Tell me all about the spoons, and the cars that kill people, and the guy in China. Tell me all about your talking points. Show us all exactly who you are.

And after you have shown us all exactly who you are, 20 babies and 8 adults will STILL be dead. Killed by a the child of someone who no doubt thought of herself as a responsible gun owner.

All those responsible guns out there are just as deadly.

Go ahead, now. Spin, spin, spin.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #298)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:06 PM

332. +1 nt

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Response to morningfog (Reply #2)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:21 PM

217. Agree.

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Response to morningfog (Reply #2)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:56 PM

241. You know, that'd probably work to reduce a significant amount of this crap. nt

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Response to morningfog (Reply #2)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:48 PM

249. This is a great idea.

Please, please, please.

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Response to morningfog (Reply #2)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:26 PM

253. Agree

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Response to morningfog (Reply #2)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:27 PM

254. agreed. n/t

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Response to morningfog (Reply #2)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:27 AM

268. Sounds good to me

The gungeon is nothing but a right-wing incubator. I dunno how many of the regulars in there fall under it that schema, but as a whole, it's a place for John Birch and NRA bullshit to ferment and cycle around.

Lance and drain the boil and apply some good antibiotics.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:36 PM

3. The insinuation of NRA talking points here over the years...

...has been somewhat.. astonishing.

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Response to villager (Reply #3)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:51 PM

250. Yes, yes it has.

Let's close the Gungeon, and ban the NRA propagandists.

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Response to villager (Reply #3)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:10 PM

323. The insinuation of all sorts of right wing talking points is astonishing...

just saw someone call an American citizen due the full guarantees and benefits of the Constitution a "jihadist"....straight out of Pam Geller hate speech.

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Response to TransitJohn (Reply #323)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 06:07 PM

336. It goes with the uptick in the "disdaining snark" posts, I think

...i.e., the marked lack of empathy or compassion that such style of posting routinely implies.

"Let me repeat the (fill in blank) talking point I've been so well-versed in, while putting you down, to boot."

Really, they are the DU version of Dittoheads.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:36 PM

4. Amen, brother Will!

Dana ; )

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:37 PM

5. Coming out of hiding to say...

I told you this place was a cesspool.

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Response to JuniperLea (Reply #5)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:56 AM

289. Wow. Seeing you posting this. Carries allot of weight.

Thank you!

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:37 PM

6. Amen, Brother. Thank You. (nt)

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:37 PM

7. FnA

shitcan them all

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:38 PM

8. Amen.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:38 PM

10. Purge the gun humpers. Please.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:39 PM

11. Thank you

I been blocking and banning people from my facebook page who post that ridiculous story

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:40 PM

12. rape.

it's okay now on DU as well.

I think blatant homophobia and holocaust denying still gets attention.

but most everything else is a Road Warrior DU3 Edition.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:41 PM

13. I do feel as if I'm too often looking for the pony in the manure pile.

It's here, but the search gets increasingly exhausting and I often think of giving up.

Hang with me, Will. Or go pioneering and let me know if you find anything.

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Response to nolabear (Reply #13)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:42 PM

17. From my cold dead hands

will they pry this place from me.

Worth fighting for.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:41 PM

14. +1000

It is astonishing to me that some of the most heated debates on gun ownership I have ever gotten into were HERE.

And I live in South Carolina.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:41 PM

15. As I said elsewhere, that China story was the first thing I heard this morning on NPR.

I heard it while dropping off my daughter at school. It tore my heart out to imagine.

My heart got torn out more later.

Litmus that.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:42 PM

16. I know you don't know me and you think I posted

Something pro gun today which wasn't my intent. I have left DU several times because it pissed me off. You were the second one to welcome me back in 2001.
I paid for your star once when you said you were broke I remember back then

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:42 PM

18. K&R

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:43 PM

19. I'm new here

But I heartily agree. I thought this was an American liberal website - and I see too many conservative talking points on a multitude of subjects.

If I wanted to hear that crap, I would go to Free Republic or Fox News, or in my town here in Hot Springs, talk to somebody - anybody.

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Response to AldoLeopold (Reply #19)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:36 PM

194. Welcome to DU, AldoLeopold.

Stick around and don't let the conservative talking points get to you.....and when they do, just read all the posts telling them to go to hell. This is the best place to keep up with liberal ideas and ideals, even if you have to wade through shit to get there.

Hang in there. We need more people like you.

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Response to Curmudgeoness (Reply #194)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:08 PM

212. Thank you!

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Response to AldoLeopold (Reply #19)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:36 AM

280. This isn't Liberal Underground

It's Democratic Underground. Some Democrats are moderates (like me), and some are conservative.

I don't own a gun, nor do I wish to. But when people start saying others should be "purged" for an opinion, that's when witch hunts begin.

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Response to lbrtbell (Reply #280)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 06:25 AM

291. this is kind of liberal underground

People who have been here a long time like Mr. Pitt agree.

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Response to lbrtbell (Reply #280)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 08:16 AM

303. The Admin's Mission Statement does not agree with you.

Mission Statement
Democratic Underground is an online community where politically liberal people can do their part to effect political and social change by:

•Interacting with friendly, like-minded people;
•Sharing news and information, free from the corporate media filter;
•Participating in lively, thought-provoking discussions;
•Helping elect more Democrats to political office at all levels of American government; and
•Having fun!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus

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Response to lbrtbell (Reply #280)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:17 PM

327. I'll be honest with you

If it ends up a witch hunt, then I'm okay with that.

I'm not really in for half-measures at this point. Its not my job to witch hunt, but if it should happen on its own, then I won't stand in its way. For my own personal opinion, this isn't a site for people who support anything but complete repeal of the 2nd amendment and collection of the guns. That premise is what I will act upon when necessary as I frequent the site. Every other DUer will have to make up his or her own mind as to how they want to handle the issue and the community can decide as a whole how to handle the issue.

There's all sorts of counter arguments to that, but I'm not really interested in hearing them. I don't normally close my ears to argument, but this is different.

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Response to AldoLeopold (Reply #19)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:05 PM

322. that sounds like running away from a problem

I think we have to be prepared to fight those conservative talking points. We need to fight them on the beaches. We should fight them on the landing grounds and in the fields and in the street and in the hills. We should never surrender or run away.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1240&pid=105330

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Response to hfojvt (Reply #322)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:11 PM

324. No

Only a fool leaves an enemy at his back. In my mind, though perhaps not in many's, this discussion is closed. Get the guns. Do it now, and to heck with those who say otherwise.

When you're faced with a crisis, you simply don't sit around and smack your gums about it. The best thing DU could do right now is shut that forum down. Its a symbolic gesture. For what its worth, its a gesture of support for those people out in Ct and everyone else who has been a victim of these shootings.

If we're going to fight those conservative talking points - its should be outside of this forum, not within it. That's my opinion.

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Response to AldoLeopold (Reply #324)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:14 PM

334. if we cannot fight and win inside the forum, then we cannot fight effectively outside

By purging dissenting opinions, you basically answer their talking points with "shut up, fuck off, go away".

Which does not seem to me like a very convincing argument. When somebody comes here with a rightwing idea, like, for example, support for the FairTax, then why not get some practice refudiating that bad idea, like so http://journals.democraticunderground.com/hfojvt/55

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:44 PM

20. I alerted on 2 of those threads, they were both allowed to stay. Couldn't agree fucking more with u

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Response to Happyhippychick (Reply #20)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:45 PM

25. So the DU disagrees with your alerts, so maybe you are wrong!

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Response to Logical (Reply #25)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:48 PM

31. Maybe you shouldn't preach to me on a day that I'm in mourning.

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Response to Happyhippychick (Reply #31)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:51 PM

39. I am mourning also. But still can be rational and discuss it. n-t

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Response to Logical (Reply #39)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:53 PM

46. That's so very sincere

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Response to Happyhippychick (Reply #46)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:27 PM

128. The soulless gunworshippers find their voice at the worst possible moments.

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Response to Logical (Reply #39)


Response to Logical (Reply #39)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:18 PM

178. Mourning why?

Because your NRA friends will now gin up more gun confiscation scares and make it harder for you to get some more toys?

Because someone might be logical and decide to stop selling bullets like candy corn?

Because dead children might just make your "rights" a little less joyful?

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Response to Jakes Progress (Reply #178)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:22 PM

180. Here we go again.....

People like you don't think, just react. Here are some of my NRA posts. Read them and then apologize! I doubt you are classy enough to do it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002574238#post2
http://www.democraticunderground.com/117285909
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1928176
http://www.democraticunderground.com/117286008

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Response to Logical (Reply #180)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:26 PM

183. Yes you do go again and again.

Anyone who would want to promote more guns on a forum like DU would, of course, say a few nasty things about NRA. With a handy snicker at how gullible the liberals are.

Supporting NRA principles and viewpoints while occasionally saying something bad about the organization is inconsistent and obvious.

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Response to Jakes Progress (Reply #183)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:27 PM

185. Find one post where I promote more guns. I will wait.

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Response to Logical (Reply #180)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:01 AM

290. "emotion instead of reason" is a CLASSIC NRA TALKING POINT...

whatever...

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Response to Logical (Reply #25)


Response to Logical (Reply #25)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:57 PM

60. THere are too many gun humpers on DU, making it suck and sitting on juries.

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Response to morningfog (Reply #60)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:02 PM

71. So the randomly picked jurys just happened to be loaded with gun nuts twice?

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Response to Logical (Reply #71)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:04 PM

77. There are a lot of you, so yes, it is possible.

I also don't know the count, it could have been 3-3 each time. Like I said, DU is awash in such filth.

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Response to morningfog (Reply #77)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:08 PM

87. LOL, you don't put much thought into posts. Classic. n-t

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Response to morningfog (Reply #77)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 08:07 AM

301. I've Been On A Jury Dozens of Times And I Don't Own A Gun

And, i'd NEVER vote to block a gun thread. The hosts could move it to the gungeon, and maybe they should.
But, you didn't think your post through. Lots of us here don't own guns, but would never vote to delete a post or purge anyone for their opinion about gun ownership.
You may be mad at Logical right now, but that doesn't mean you get to cast aspersion on any juror who wouldn't decide to purge someone for their opinion.
If you want to insult him, go ahead and have at it. But, don't insult people who aren't even part of your fight.

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Response to ProfessorGAC (Reply #301)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:13 AM

308. Juries can make their decision for any of no reason.

I take that point. A juror may take an "non-intervention" approach or leave it for a variety of reasons. I think the positions and the framing attempted are wrong for DU. Just like a jury can leave for any reason they can hide for any reason. I would have hidden because I find it as an inappropriate attempt to re-frame the tragedy and a distraction from the issue. You can't be neutral on a moving train.

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Response to Logical (Reply #25)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:36 PM

227. Nah.

3-3 vote to keep a first-posting "China 22 kids knife attack" troll shit post.

And it is troll shit. Pathetic.

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Response to Hissyspit (Reply #227)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:38 AM

281. If you are referring to this douche, he was TS'd

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #281)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:54 AM

283. No, this one:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021980716#post36

Although I guess it could be the same person with different user name.

That poster has been PPR'd, too. Jury voted 3-3 to allow comment to stay, but poster was PPR'd nonetheless.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:45 PM

22. Wow, yes, lets ban anyone who disagrees with WilliamPitt! How about you do this.......

Once again, I ask you to stop just posting to post and explain how you stop a LONE gunman from going nuts and killing people with a legally purchased gun.

Let me remind you, guns are legal to manufacture, sell, purchase and possess in this country.

Just like this shooters guns were legally purchased!

And 300 million guns are in the USA.

How about stopping people from WANTING to kill people.

Keep posting, I will keep replying!

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Response to Logical (Reply #22)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:48 PM

32. You make it harder to own guns?

You make it impossible to own guns that fire six bullets a second?

You have a BRILLIANT point. Make gun ownership less legal.

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Response to renie408 (Reply #32)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:50 PM

36. You still have 300 million guns out there already. n-t

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Response to renie408 (Reply #32)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:43 AM

282. Bombs are so much safer

There are instructions for making them all over the internet. So let's ban the internet while we're at it.

And a woman in Arizona tried to run over a man with her car, so let's ban cars. And China has been plagued with nearly a dozen men stabbing innocent school children in different parts of that country for the past few years.

Yes, it IS relevant, because it's proof that killers WILL kill even if they can't get guns. But anti-gunners don't want to hear that kind of logic, because it scares them to think that their no-gun utopia would still be filled with psychos.

Can't we knock off the pro-gun and anti-gun nonsense long enough to discuss how we should deal with severely mentally ill people BEFORE they choose ANY weapon to harm or kill others?

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Response to Logical (Reply #22)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:52 PM

41. Oh that's an easy one: the DP for any gun owner who fails to secure their guns and then they are

taken and used to commit murder.

I have reconsidered my recent opposition to the DP. I'm back on board with it for negligent gun owners whose negligence results in murder.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #41)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:53 PM

49. Wow, not a liberal wants the death penalty to be expanded. Even for non-murderers. Perfect!!

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Response to Logical (Reply #49)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:08 PM

89. There is no requirement here that I oppose the DP. Plenty of DUers support its limited use.

I support it for gun negligence that results in murder.

Because I am COMPLETELY DONE with coddling gun nuttery.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #89)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:13 PM

98. So the murderer is less guilty than the non-secured gun owner?

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #41)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:32 PM

135. Can I make the same 'BAN THEM' call for people who support the death penalty?

Is your (perhaps single) deviation from a progressive issue slate ban-worthy, or is mine?

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #41)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:10 PM

175. Wow.

That is a profoundly stupid statement that you will feel stupid about posting after a few days.

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Response to Logical (Reply #22)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:53 PM

48. Make it harder to get the guns

So explain to me why it is legal to purchase an assault weapon? Semi automatic assault weapons are legal, I know. And anyone who can get the most basic gun permit can buy them...but you ask yourself...why? What is the purpose of these weapons? If this guy did not have it, would he have killed so many so quickly? Sure you may say yes with handguns...but he did not do it with just handguns. What sane reason is there for the average citizen to own an assault type weapon? And please don't post about 2nd amendment rights and NRA rants...If this guy was stopped from getting the legally purchased weapon would so many children be dead today?

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Response to ragemage (Reply #48)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:55 PM

55. This shooter might have just used handguns only. And there is no difference between a....

assault rifle and a hunting rifle in shooting people.

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Response to Logical (Reply #55)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:59 PM

66. There is a big difference.

Standard hunting rifle is single shot, reload, shoot again. Maybe 6 to 7 rounds in a standard rifle (think Winchester 30/30). Assault rifle is semi-automatic...keep pulling trigger until magazine is empty. Insert next magazine. Usually a 30 round mag is standard. Agree in the end it is the same. However the assault rifle makes it oh so much easier.

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Response to ragemage (Reply #48)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:35 PM

136. At the risk of incurring the OP's wrath as a 'nra water carrier', the police are saying

his rifle was found in his car, so he apparently didn't use it in the school, since he killed himself in the school.

Of course, maybe there's some fog of war here and he had two rifles. I don't know. But from the story breaking, forward, the only consistent point on his weapons was two pistols (A glock and a sig sauer, reported VERY early in the day).


Edit: May have been two pistols and two rifles (one on him, one in the car). News reports are unclear.

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Response to Logical (Reply #22)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:55 PM

56. Today...you had to post this...today. n/t

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Response to godai (Reply #56)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:58 PM

65. They care more about their weapon than people. Disgusting.

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Response to Logical (Reply #22)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:58 PM

63. Look in the mirror, you are part of the problem.

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Response to morningfog (Reply #63)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:05 PM

81. How am I the problem. Because I want to know how you plan on stopping a random nut from killing?

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Response to Logical (Reply #81)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:06 PM

84. You only care about that is not a threat to your toys.

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Response to morningfog (Reply #84)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:10 PM

92. More nonsense from you. Perfect!! n-t

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Response to Logical (Reply #92)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:10 PM

93. I can go all night.

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Response to morningfog (Reply #93)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:11 PM

96. Yes, I believe you can post non-informative posts all night. n-t

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Response to Logical (Reply #81)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:18 PM

112. Since you are so damn 'logical'...

explain why Americans are 19.5 times more likely to die from guns than someone from another industrialized country? Explain why those of us whose egos are not attached to their weapons should have to live with the consequences of those whose are? And explain why, if we all agree that the prevalence of guns in this country is part of the problem, we should all just shrug our shoulders and not TRY to curtail the ownership of these weapons?

Because it would be HARD to fix? Really?

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Response to renie408 (Reply #112)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:23 PM

123. Glad you asked......

I agree 100% on we need to solve the question of why we are such a violent country. Many countries have a lot of guns without our gun problems.

I have never said "we need to keep our guns" and you will not find a post where I say anything close to that.

I have said how do you stop a lone nut from killing 10-30 people with a gun when there are 300 million legally owned guns? There is no way. The only solutions is to collect all 300 million guns. Which I say will NEVER happen.

Why is that not very simple. You cannot stop the problem at this point.

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Response to Logical (Reply #123)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 07:43 AM

295. Oh, for chrissakes, it's hard so we shouldn't even try??

Are you kidding??

Your answer is to just shrug and say, "oh well"?? Can we change the culture of guns over night? No.

Did your parents litter or smoke when you were growing up? Mine did. I can remember my father chunking stuff out the window all the time as we drove down the road. And he and my mother both smoked like chimneys. But over time, those things have become less and less prevalent through education on the one hand and education and punishment on the other. If we really started to work at conquering violence, and gun violence in particular, in 40 years maybe we won't have the highest homicide rate in the industrialized world.

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Response to Logical (Reply #81)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:32 PM

134. What I want to know is...

... what do people who champion private gun ownership propose to do about the 30,000 Americans who die every year using the weapons that they champion?

It seems to me that the ball is in your park. Personally, I have a simple solution: follow the example of the civilized, developed nations of the world and regulate the hell out of personal firearms. It's a tried and tested solution that has worked for every other country that has adopted it. Gun owners are the ones who do not wish to see their access to their deadly toys restricted. Gun owners are the ones who want guns. You want them? Fine. You come up with a way to stop the killings with their beloved toys.

Yet one never hears any such proposals coming from the gun community. All one ever hears is excuses, how such and such can't be done, or it wouldn't accomplish anything, or it infringes upon their precious RKBA, or it's not their fault, it's all the fault of criminals and bad apples whom everyone agrees "should never have been allowed to have a gun in the first place." Except, of course, the day before that "bad apple" shot up a school yard, s/he was a "law abiding, responsible firearm owner" whose right to own and use that firearm the gun community fought to protect. You guys need to once and for all own up to the fact that what you are fighting for includes access to lethal weapons by persons who have no business having them. You are the ones preserving these people's access to lethal weaponry. You are the ones supporting the NRA and its fearsome army of lobbyists, the ones who are voting against candidates who support responsible gun control legislation, the ones who support laws to keep these weapons of mass destruction freely and widely available with no constraints. Fine, you want these atrocities out in our communities? Then it's your responsibility to come up with a way to stop these killings. If you are not willing to assume responsibility for your toys, you have no right to have them as far as I'm concerned. There's no such thing as a free lunch, no right without responsibility. So what are you going to do?

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Response to primavera (Reply #134)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:38 PM

141. If you could today remove all the guns in the USA and ban the sales of them then I think.....

the problem would be solved. And I would have NO ISSUE with that. If no one had guns then this would be a better country.

But I see no wat to stop this problem now. Not without going door to door collecting guns. Which we both know will not happen. It would not even be physically possible.

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Response to Logical (Reply #141)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:54 PM

159. Yet other countries have all managed it

This is another fallacy promoted by the gun community, that, for gun control measures to be worthwhile, they have to produce 100% results, instantaneously, within seconds of the bill being signed into law. No law works that way. After the UK banned guns for its population, of course there were still many guns in private hands and there continued to be shootings. The point is that, with each year that passed, the number of guns fell, the culture for craving guns weakened, and, gradually, but steadily, the number of shootings dropped. Now, many, many years later, they have virtually no gun deaths in the UK. Of course it didn't occur overnight, no one but an idiot would expect it to.

So, if you have no ideas for how to fix the gun crisis this country faces, perhaps you would at least be so good as to step aside and stop trying to hinder those who do have ideas.

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Response to primavera (Reply #159)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:26 PM

221. How am I blocking anything. I look forward to you finding 10 senators, much less 50 that propose....

banning all guns.

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Response to Logical (Reply #221)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:22 PM

245. You're blocking through your voting behavior

You are among those who are empowering the gun lobby and ensuring that ten senators willing to entertain serious discussion of responsible gun control measures are hard to find. If the gun lobby had no supporters, it could not exert the pressure upon legislatures that it does to keep gun control off their dockets. If the gun community, of which you are a part, did not fight to prevent the election of any candidate favoring responsible gun control, if gun proponents would at least consider listening to proposals to regulate gun ownership, instead of reactionarily declaring war upon anyone who even thinks about trying to pass gun control legislation, in other words, if you guys were amenable to any sort of compromise at all, the discussion of gun issues in this country would be very, very different.

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Response to Logical (Reply #141)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:24 PM

218. The problem will take time to solve. Banning assault rifles and hand guns is a start.

 

It will take time for these guns to surface and be collected by law enforcement, but eventually the problem will mitigate. That's how those "other" counties did it, slowly.

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Response to primavera (Reply #134)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:04 PM

168. You made a very good point,

right here: "...it's all the fault of criminals and bad apples whom everyone agrees "should never have been allowed to have a gun in the first place." Except, of course, the day before that "bad apple" shot up a school yard, s/he was a "law abiding, responsible firearm owner" whose right to own and use that firearm the gun community fought to protect."

As you say, the ball *IS* in your opponent's park.

If DU is any kind of a microcosm of America, it makes me very hopeful to see everyone get so furious at the gun lobby at the same time. I can't recall that ever happening before--not to quite this degree anyway. They don't have any more power than we collectively allow them to have, and we've allowed them to have way too much for too long. And too many people have died because of it.

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Response to primavera (Reply #134)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 07:40 AM

294. so.much. this!

So well said. Thanks!

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Response to Logical (Reply #81)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:35 PM

137. Not some "random" nut - some random GUN-NUT. What's your plan on stopping such a person?

Just like every other gunworshipper - YOU DON'T HAVE A PLAN! The only answer you have to the problem of too much gun violence is to have more guns!

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Response to baldguy (Reply #137)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:40 PM

142. What makes you think this person was a gun-nut? I don't have a plan to remove all the guns....

from being used by a person who wants to kill a bunch of people.

Why is this so hard to understand?

How do you stop a person intent on killing 10 people from borrowing, stealing or buying a gun to do it?

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Response to Logical (Reply #142)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:59 PM

163. Thank you for your confession. You see, the rest of us compassionate, thoughtful LIBERALS

Do have a solution. One that actually works in nearly every country it's been tried. The answer is strict gun control. Any RW propaganda to the contrary you will spew is nothing but lies.

And the other this us compassionate, thoughtful LIBERALS do - NOT TRY TO SCORE POLITICAL POINTS ON THE BLOOD & BODIES OF TWENTY ELEMENTARY SCHOOL CHILDREN!

The most productive thing you and the other sick, gunworshipping SOBs can do is just crawl back under your rock.

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Response to baldguy (Reply #163)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:02 PM

165. "One that actually works in nearly every country it's been tried"......

What country?

What gun control are you talking about? Canada? Norway?

Give me your example country.

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Response to Logical (Reply #165)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:06 PM

169. Wayne LaPierre & Ted Nugent are thirsty. They're calling for you, waterboy.

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Response to baldguy (Reply #169)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:07 PM

172. OK, I get it, you have nothing. Also....here is some of my feelings about the NRA.....

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Response to Logical (Reply #172)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:14 PM

177. 20 dead children

On your head. Blood on your hands. Guilt on your conscience.

You don't understand, because your soul is lost.

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Response to baldguy (Reply #177)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:33 PM

191. Wow, you need a nap. You have anger issues. And no facts about anything.

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Response to Logical (Reply #191)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:46 PM

198. Anger is a normal response when 20 children are senselessly slaughtered.

And when a sick RW sycophant like you belittles those deaths.

Please, continue to post your slime & bile. Allow everyone to see the really ugly evil that supports the murderous crazy gun culture in America.

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Response to baldguy (Reply #198)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:51 PM

200. Please show ONE post where I support this shooting! Wow, you are out of control.

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Response to Logical (Reply #200)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:02 PM

210. Spare me your histrionics. No one is being fooled by it anymore.

It's about as convincing as Bart Simpson saying "Nobody saw me! You can't prove anything!"


And learn how to use a dictionary.

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Response to baldguy (Reply #210)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:04 PM

211. LOL, typical response from someone who has not spent 10 minutes thinking about a problem.

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Response to Logical (Reply #211)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:14 PM

213. At least I realize THERE IS A PROBLEM when 20 innocent children die needlessly.

Meanwhile, you gunworshippers are ignoring the blood.

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Response to baldguy (Reply #213)


Response to Logical (Reply #191)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:29 PM

223. You're right there obviously can be no plan to "confiscate" all the guns but stricter

 

laws and confiscation over ten to twenty years will take millions out of circulation. It will also make them rare and ungodly costly for a criminal to even consider purchasing one. Now, logical, what have you got?

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Response to Logical (Reply #22)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:21 PM

117. Allow us then an objective and comprehensive solution to do just that

"How about stopping people from WANTING to kill people. .."

Allow us then an objective and comprehensive solution to do just that... or do you simply hold others to a higher standard than yourself?

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Response to Logical (Reply #22)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:46 PM

148. It's impossible to do *anything* about 300 million guns.....

but you suggest stopping people from WANTING to kill people. Like THAT'S doable?

This isn't the Wild West---every dudely guy (and those who wish they were dudely---like homicidal mentally ill guys) doesn't need a gun hidden under his coat or strapped to his bulging thigh.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/07/23/six-facts-about-guns-violence-and-gun-control/
Six facts about guns, violence, and gun control
Posted by Ezra Klein on July 23, 2012 at 11:51 am

The aftermath of the Aurora, Colorado shootings has been thick with calls to avoid “politicizing” the tragedy. That is code, essentially, for “don’t talk about reforming our gun control laws.”
Let’s be clear: This is a form of politicization. When political actors construct a political argument that threatens political consequences if other political actors pursue a certain political outcome, that is, almost by definition, a politicization of the issue. It’s just a form of politicization favoring those who prefer the status quo to stricter gun control laws.

about gun and violence trends in the U.S.:

1. America is an unusually violent country. But we’re not as violent as we used to be.
Kieran Healy, a sociologist at Duke University, made this graph of “deaths due to assault” in the United States and other developed countries. We are a clear outlier. (see graph at web page)
...

3. Gun ownership in the United States is declining overall.
...

2. The South is the most violent region in the United States.
In a subsequent post, Healy drilled further into the numbers and looked at deaths due to assault in different regions of the country. Just as the United States is a clear outlier in the international context, the South is a clear outlier in the national context: (see graph at web page)
...

4. More guns tend to mean more homicide.
The Harvard Injury Control Research Center assessed the literature on guns and homicide and found that there’s substantial evidence that indicates more guns means more murders. This holds true whether you’re looking at different countries or different states.
....

5. States with stricter gun control laws have fewer deaths from gun-related violence.
Last year, economist Richard Florida dove deep into the correlations between gun deaths and other kinds of social indicators. Some of what he found was, perhaps, unexpected: Higher populations, more stress, more immigrants, and more mental illness were not correlated with more deaths from gun violence. But one thing he found was, perhaps, perfectly predictable: States with tighter gun control laws appear to have fewer gun-related deaths. The disclaimer here is that correlation is not causation. But correlations can be suggestive:
(see graph at webpage)
...

6. Gun control is not politically popular.
...

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Response to Logical (Reply #22)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:19 PM

179. You answer the problem in your own thread.

Make it illegal to manufacture, sell, purchase, and possess guns in this country.

I'm sure there is a 12 step program that could help you wean yourself off the iron.

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Response to Logical (Reply #22)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:28 PM

186. The guns may have been legally purchased...

...but not by him. I heard while ago that the guns belonged to his Mother.
Oh, yeah, "300 million guns are legally purchased". WRONG. 40% aren't!

And really, why DON'T we put people who want to kill people in a mental institution where they can be cared for and protected from themselves and others? Probably because Reagan closed most of them down back in the 80's and turned them out on the streets if they didn't have anywhere to go.

And you? Ha! (as Tweety says it), your Mommy needs to take your computer privileges away from you. This is a serious discussion board, not a playground. Why don't all you bullies start a board of your own and just go after each other? Why come here and act the way you do? You think it's fun? You get your jollies by harassing people? Is that what you're doing right now?

Well, stop it for a moment and just explain, logically, why you are a DU bully.
Are we really that "bulliable"?

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Response to ReRe (Reply #186)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:31 PM

187. Where do you get the 40% are not? Private sales? They are legal. more info please.

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Response to Logical (Reply #187)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:45 PM

197. I'd certainly enjoy listening to the objective solution you propose

"How about stopping people from WANTING to kill people. .."

I'd certainly enjoy listening to the objective solution you propose to do this... the same solution you have been demanding from others.

Unless you really do hold others to a higher standard than yourself, and if so, I recognize the convenience and simplicity of it.

In other words, "more info please."

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #197)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:54 PM

201. How about health care and mental help for all americans?

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Response to Logical (Reply #187)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:42 PM

231. Look it up. Why didn't you answer my questions?

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:45 PM

24. I got banned from the gungeon

 

Which I carry as a badge of honor.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:46 PM

26. No, because the Chinese guy is good for gun control

None of his 22 victims died. Thus demonstrating gun control saved lives.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:46 PM

27. welcome to The Big Tent®, William..

and fucking word up.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:46 PM

28. yes sir, i do.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:47 PM

30. I am so with you on this.

 

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:48 PM

33. The gungeon is there to contain this madness.

One Scud missile is all it would take.

Ban them.

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Response to onehandle (Reply #33)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:53 PM

47. Yes, ban them. n/t

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Response to onehandle (Reply #33)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:05 PM

331. Yes, ban them.

But let's keep that Scud missile metaphorical.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:49 PM

35. Yep. And gun nuttery is NOT a liberal cause. I do not understand why we tolerate those

opposed to gun laws and their aggressive enforcement.

This tent is a tad too big.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:50 PM

37. Difference between then and now is...

...moderators. The present experiment of using anonymous jurors is not working.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:50 PM

38. The China school knife attack is on the front page of CNN now and many other websites today...


what's the problem with it?

It's news.

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Response to Tx4obama (Reply #38)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:51 PM

40. You're not that stupid.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Reply #40)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:52 PM

42. I do not know what you mean. Please explain. n/t

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Response to Tx4obama (Reply #42)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:54 PM

52. . . . . . . . . . .

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Response to WilliamPitt (Reply #52)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:56 PM

58. I was asking you a serious question. I do not know what the problem with the China story is.


And I do not have a clue what your cartoon is.

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Response to Tx4obama (Reply #58)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:02 PM

74. *sigh* OK...

Man in America butchers 20 children with a gun. 20 children dead.

Man in China slashes 22 children with a knife. 0 children dead.

Gun-humping fucking asshole douchebag loser fuckwad assbag suckass awful dumb people who suck so hard they bend light use China story to defend gun rights, i.e. Durr Hurr you can hurt people with things besides guns. Over and over and over and over.

It's called "false equivalency," and it has been deployed dozens of times here today.

If you're genuine in your ignorance of the subtext, you have my most sincere apology. You will also be the first person I've come across who hasn't coughed up that story to make slaughtering children OK.

Your move.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Reply #74)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:07 PM

85. Apology accepted. All I know is that ...


... I saw a headline about the China story before I went to bed around the time the sun was coming up,
then today I saw an alert on an OP regarding China story that was posted in LBN (which had nothing to do with guns or the USA school shooting),
then I came here on this thread and saw negativity about the China story,
so I really had no idea what all was going on.



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Response to Tx4obama (Reply #85)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:09 PM

91. (((hug)))

Very sorry.

It's been a long, rotten day...mostly because of the reasons above described.



I'm sorry.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Reply #74)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:17 PM

106. But how would you figure out intent?

The intent of posting it in LBN was suggested and then confirmed here and the reply to this: http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014336776#post15

There's more than one subtext possible.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #106)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:18 PM

110. By asking.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Reply #74)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:27 PM

127. You have quite a vocabulary.

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Response to virgogal (Reply #127)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:28 PM

131. Need help with the spelling bee?

I'm good there, too.

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Response to virgogal (Reply #127)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:59 AM

284. You are correct, he does.

He's an amazing writer. Whether you agree with him or not.

To every writing style, there is a season: The sacred and profane, the florid and the prosaic, the quixotic and the in-your-face.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Reply #74)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:05 AM

307. Thank You

I feel guilty for laughing and agree with you 100%.

It's just you said it so fu€king well.

Gun-humping fucking asshole douchebag loser fuckwad assbag suckass awful dumb people who suck so hard they bend light use China story to defend gun rights, i.e. Durr Hurr you can hurt people with things besides guns. Over and over and over and over.


Worth repeating.

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Response to Tx4obama (Reply #38)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:18 PM

111. The article is LBN. Fine.

But the OP is talking about: anyone who posted the story about the Chinese guy with the knife in order to mitigate the damage to their raison d'etre.

It's fine that the news was posted once in LBN. But there are some that are going around in threads about the other tragedy, the shooting, and using it to push their agenda.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:52 PM

43. Good luck

Why do you think I don't give money.

That said that knife story was dated today. I liked Van Zants take on it early in the day.

So since he brought it up on msnbc should I turn the TV off too?

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:52 PM

44. Agree

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:52 PM

45. +1

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:54 PM

51. Thanks, Will. nt

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:55 PM

53. +28

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:55 PM

54. I'm new here

and don't know what it was like. Must have been nice...

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Response to secondvariety (Reply #54)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:55 PM

57. It was.

This kind of vomitorium experience never, ever, ever happened.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:57 PM

59. All the gun lovers should go home tonight and

hug their guns, feel grateful that they still have them, count their ammo blessings.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:57 PM

61. Yep

+1,000 - that was sick

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:58 PM

62. I know emotions are running high right now...

But the fact that we suffered an absolutely horrific tragedy here does not diminish the horror that those 22 students in China went through. Those who post the latter story with an agenda suck...but I have seen any mention of the story treated as a refutation of the message about gun control sent by today's atrocity.

Mentioning that a large and vicious attack against the most innocent members of society occurred around the world is not inherently political, or at least not in the sense that it takes away from what happened here. That any children (or any human being, really) should suffer such random and undeserved acts of violence is beyond words.

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Response to antigone382 (Reply #62)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:04 PM

80. You're breaking my fucking heart.

...or not.

1. You're vomiting false piety to cover for those using the China story to diminish the shaughter of children;

or

2. You really don't know any better.

Either way...

Ugh.

Never mind.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Reply #80)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:14 PM

102. No, I explicitly said that posting the story as a political false equivalency was crap.

My point is that automatically responding to the story as if that is the case every time it is presented is unfair. I don't have an agenda, except that I don't like to see children targeted for violence. We don't need to hide the story about children being horrifically attacked in China to make the case that this horrific attack was awful and needs to be addressed. I'm not saying that was your point, but I have seen what amounts to that attitude displayed on DU today.

I have been on DU for eight years and I've never made a pro-gun post, nor have I ever been uncivil to you. As a student of Asian culture and a friend of Asian people this story is closer to me than it might be to others, for reasons that have nothing to do with the weapons of choice. Those children, their families, and their suffering are real to me. It shouldn't be downplayed.

And for the record I have family who live not thirty minutes from this school in Connecticut, who just brought a newborn baby into the world last night. I have no doubt it is affecting them deeply and I have followed this story closely because it does indeed "break my heart." I don't know what else to tell you.


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Response to WilliamPitt (Reply #80)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:25 PM

182. Let's face it, we are easy targets for manipulation.

We have morals and we care about people and they can use that against us and they are doing just that.

they win either way...if we start a witch hunt to purge ourselves of gun nuts we will be attacking ourselves and it don't matter if it is just or unjust....a house divided cannot stand...and it don't make a shit whether the divisiveness is justified or not.

I assume we have right wing plants here on DU that want to stir up trouble...no question in my mind about it...but I would never make the mistake of trying to figure out who they are and start accusing them...that don't work and it sets up a dynamic where every thing in the world becomes a litmus test of right and wrong and we start tearing yourself apart over it....and again we lose.

I urge us all not to over react...but that is seldom satisfying to our emotions....and probably ignored.

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Response to zeemike (Reply #182)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:15 PM

244. 20 children were slaughtered today.....

I don't give a rat's ass about anyone's opinion if they think I'm "overreacting". I'm too freakin' old to care what anyone thinks. The ole' let's play nicey nice and let's not let our emotions hurt someone's feelings is a great big, heaping crock of shit.

Shut down the gungeon. Bring back the old DU.

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Response to llmart (Reply #244)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:29 AM

269. And shutting down the gungeon will some how prevent that in the future?

It is not about hurting someones feelings it is about going on a crusade to hunt trolls down and kick them out...and some here will enjoy that I know....but it will surly destroy us in the end...
But if you want that kind of place then go for it...but It won't be the old DU...and I know cause I was here from the start.

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Response to zeemike (Reply #269)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 08:11 AM

302. This event has proven beyond any doubt that gun advocacy is an irresponsible position, and

should not be tolerated by thinking people. Enough is enough. It is time for some group - and it will have to be liberals - to take an unequivocal position for what is obviously the right thing to do. Just as we take an unequivocal position about other issues, it is time to do it with this.

This will not destroy us. This is the right thing to do.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #302)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:38 AM

309. I agree.

Thank you for being another sane, intelligent voice.

I'm choosing to ignore the other idiotic response to my post. I've had my fill of idiocy for one day.

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Response to llmart (Reply #309)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:29 AM

313. Good God, I know! The sheer volume of idiotic gun spin today is nauseating. They're scuttling

around frantically now that the light has been turned on their imbecilic positions.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #302)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:49 AM

310. And Iraq has proven beyond any doubt that war advocacy is an irresponsible position.

And should not be tolerated by thinking people.
Now lets kick out the ones who are pro military...and harass them and force them to keep quiet.
And there are other things we have already decided cannot be said here...and there are many more to come as we spit off splinter by splinter and left only with the heart wood.
There is a difference between calling out people for their actions and calling them out for their thoughts...it can be turned into the thought police, and that will destroy us.

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Response to zeemike (Reply #310)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:23 AM

312. Spin away. Twenty 5-year-olds are still dead. Gun control is not thought police. It's common sense

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Response to Squinch (Reply #312)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:11 PM

316. No gun control is gun control

Banning words and thoughts is thought police...
Ban guns not words....then perhaps no more will die...but banning words and thoughts will not do shit except piss people off and make us look like authoritarians.

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Response to zeemike (Reply #316)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:25 PM

317. Spin, spin, spin. And twenty 5-year-olds are STILL dead.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #317)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 06:12 PM

337. It is not spin it is reality.

You want to solve the problem go after the cause not the symptoms....enact gun control and attack the culture of violence that has dominated this country for decades now...

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:59 PM

67. I posted about the Chinese guy with the knife

It wasn't posted to support gun rights. And it was pretty obvious to anyone who thought about it that it wasn't done to support gun rights.

If you have a problem with it, we can rectify that. Without guns or knives.

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Response to TomClash (Reply #67)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:58 AM

272. I think the reference was to folks like this douchebag...

Who appears to have joined DU tonight to post "cars kill people too" and the Chinese guy with the knife crap.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1986534

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:00 PM

69. K & R

 

CLOSE DOWN THE GUNGEON! BAN THE RIGHT WING DEATH SPEWER TOTING SYNCOPHANTS!

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:00 PM

70. +1000

fact waiters/shooter apologists also. The fact that 20 small children were dead is all the fact I needed to call it the way I saw it. You called it the way any feeling human being might and the way you saw it. Very sad day in america.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:02 PM

72. DU has changed so much, I only stay around because of people like you...

and I love the ASAH area...but it has changed wayy too much.
Almost wish I could find another arena to hang in.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:04 PM

76. Who is your avatar image?

He looks like he's got a headache or toothache and reminds me of the guy who didn't get the girl in a Doris Day movie...

Looks like he's in pain and I wanted to ask if you felt the way he looks...


Oh, I read your posts and most of the time agree with all you say....




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Response to fadedrose (Reply #76)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:06 PM

83. A version of this:

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:10 PM

94. Amen n/t

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:13 PM

99. DU - wise and otherwise

"Well, sometimes the magic works. Sometimes, it doesn't.
- Chief Dan George as "Old Lodge Skins" in "Little Big Man" - my favorite movie

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:17 PM

108. To be honest

Juries seem to have gamed the system. I altered on a thread that said Kopreans jusrt came here to breed acnhor babies. Lo and behold, the jurors upheld it.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:17 PM

109. I empathize with the impulse. Can't agree with the sentiment.


An even more basic liberal idea than opposition to gun violence is the one where we freely exchange ideas.

We know all the reasons: Bad ideas thrive in darkness, good ideas grow dull when unopposed. Suppression and avoidance never change anyone's mind. Etc.

But you know that. You're just angry, like the rest of us, that this conversation about mass violence seems to get us nowhere.



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Response to DirkGently (Reply #109)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:21 PM

120. Spare me, Dirk.

^^^ Spoken with all due respect. ^^^

Some truths are self-evident.

This is not the wide-open Yahoo boards. This is not fucking YouTube.

This is DU. There used to be standards. I've been here for more than a decade thanks to those standards. Those standards made the place worth returning to again, and again, and again.

There used to be standards.

Of late, those standards have gone to seed.

Yes, I am shouting about that.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Reply #120)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:35 PM

138. Your example doesn't support that. "Knives are just like guns" isn't exactly the nadir

of human expression. It's dumb, but no dumber to me than, say, support of irresponsible drone killings or torturing Bradley Manning.

We're not talking about Jewish conspiracy theories or rape fantasies or the rest of the dregs that inhabit "the wide-open" Internet.

Vehemence and indignation over what remains essentially a political disagreement does not entitle us shut other people up. That's a tactic for those not equipped to argue their own point, which is not a group you inhabit.

The problem may be that there is a teeny tiny point in the "Knife guy slaughtered a bunch of kids" story. There are a thousand reasons why knives aren't guns. But it IS also true that violent madmen / women don't disappear where guns are rare, isn't it? Not germane to the discussion of mass killings in general? Maybe, but that's an argument, not an axiomatic truth.

Make the argument. Put away the censor stick. Those are for dummies.

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Response to DirkGently (Reply #138)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:40 PM

143. "...over what remains essentially a political disagreement..."

...is where we part ways.

Politely.

If you consider this to be just another political conversation, I bid you adieu.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Reply #143)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:33 PM

190. Why don't you characterize it, then?


That's where my resistance is coming from. You're angry at the comment, which I do understand. You don't want to articulate anything further, which I think is a problem.

Aloha.

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Response to DirkGently (Reply #190)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:52 PM

263. consider to whom you give aid and comfort. they will use you carelessly

i am glad the aclu defends the kkk's right to march in the street
the kkk is still not welcome in my house

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Response to DirkGently (Reply #138)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:58 PM

162. A reasonable response

I commend you.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:18 PM

113. Willian Pitt you are the ONE who

through your articles back in the 2003 and beyond, who have given me hope and let me believe I was not alone.
You stuck your neck out in Chapel Hil, NC, and I was there to hear you. I followed you on Truth Out and then to DU. If you see a problem, then I think it exists. I'm sorry if I have contributed, and I'll be careful from now on. I think you are right to bring DU to out attention.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:19 PM

115. It goes beyond the gun issue

Hell, during the election, I was under attack because I supported the DEMOCRATIC candidate in my state's senate race.

It really has gone to the dogs.

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Response to NWHarkness (Reply #115)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:44 PM

233. Did you see the dozens of attacks on Obama about Susan Rice yesterday? Had ALL KINDS of "mistakes"

in facts and stuff, like she stepped out of consideration for SoS herself, she is an American Exceptionalist/war-monger, has a vested interest in dirty oil, all left out, just to create the same spurious platform over and over again to attack the President.

Now, tell me how that ISN'T violation of Terms of Service to NOT advocate for the defeat of a Democrat, in this case on selected issues, rather than in an election.

Horseshit!

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:21 PM

118. In my over ten years here I never banned a single poster

This afternoon, I started banning any pro-gun poster I came across.
Just a few minutes ago, my daughters therapist call to tell us that his friends daughter was on of the victims, just 5 years old. He call to cancel her 7:00 appointment because he needed to help her mother. I can be in Newtown in 45 minutes, and the firehouse in the background of all the news shots is where I went to various training classes over the years.

Skinner et al, the current jury system is broken, it must go.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:22 PM

121. I'm with you.

Thanks for saying it.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:24 PM

125. I remember too. Flame wars were about benign crap

I remember too. Flame wars were about benign crap like Olive Garden and showing receipts at Circuit City. These days. the flame wars revolve around those who feel that 27+ dead school children are but a mere price to pay to maintain the most heavily armed citizenry on the planet to no good effect.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:28 PM

130. I remember.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:32 PM

133. Let the purge begin

I am a gun owner. I am as angry and as saddened as anyone with the horrible news I heard this afternoon. I have never posted any pro or anti-gun threads. But if in your anguish you want me and any other gun owners to leave. Just say the word. It might make you feel better temporarily, but it's not the answer. I'm not foolish enough this soon in this tragedy to take up a position for or against the right to own a gun, that would be callous. But I'm not going to permanently hide my views just to fit in here. I know many fine democratic, responsible gun owners. If there's no longer a place in this party for us, let us know.

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Response to joe_sixpack (Reply #133)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:37 PM

139. Pry yourself off your cross. You are NOT a victim today.

Whatever conflict you are having is not with me, or this thread, but with your own notions of "responsible gun ownership." Whatever else is happening on DU vis a vis gun ownership is NOT this thread.

I may own a gun someday. That is not the conversation...and if you think about it for a moment, you'll know that's true. This thread is about people defending ALL KINDS OF GUN OWNERSHIP at ALL COSTS.

You are NOT the victim today.

...and, psssst, go fuck yourself if you try to make yourself one again.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Reply #139)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:45 PM

146. I have never in my life

acted like some fucking "victim", but it doesn't take much to see what's going on here today. Most is an understandable emotional lashing out because of a horrific incident of violence we all heard of with thesame disbelief. But a mob mentality can quickly get out of control.

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Response to joe_sixpack (Reply #146)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:48 PM

150. Never?

"Let the purge begin"

"But I'm not going to permanently hide my views just to fit in here."

"If there's no longer a place in this party for us, let us know."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1983586

I'd say you've done it once.

Think about it.

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Response to joe_sixpack (Reply #133)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:08 PM

252. "responsible gun owners" is an oxymoron.

I'm not saying there should be no gun ownership, just that if you want to be safe, you should not own a gun.

You're 43 times more likely to be killed by your own gun than by an intruder's. You are unlikely to have an intruder. But you are very likely to get drunk, get depressed, get in a fight with someone in your house, or have your kid find your gun. That's how people get killed. Having a gun in the house makes it far more likely that you'll get your own fool head blown off.

That's why it is so crazy to suggest you should buy a gun for your own protection. I would imagine this woman knew her son had mental issues. Ironically, maybe she thought those guns would protect her from him.

http://theincidentaleconomist.com/wordpress/more-guns-more-suicides/

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Response to joe_sixpack (Reply #133)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:04 AM

264. I'm willing to bet this guy's mother thought she was a responsible gun owner.

And what is that, a threat? "If there's no longer a place in this party for us, let us know." What's that supposed to mean? You'll go and be a Republican if we don't talk nice about your gun?

OK, I'll say the word. Go.

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Response to joe_sixpack (Reply #133)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:16 PM

326. I'm a gun owner and I am fucking sick of the gun nuts.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:38 PM

140. I've been here just as long, Pitt

And sadly those "but rocks kill people too!" dipshits have been here all along, too. Hell, one of the dungeon mods in 01 or 02 was an undercover Freeper who posted shit like that all the time.

Actually, now that I think about it, you may have a point. At best they're seriously lacking in the critical thinking department ("no, a fallacy is not a sex act"), and at worst they're disrupting little trolls.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:43 PM

144. I agree 100%

I see people on HP trying to prove that countries without guns, substitute other violence...like bombs.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:45 PM

147. What you said Will! The Delicate Flowers are out in force defending their weapons of choice

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:49 PM

152. On a music forum, a guy actually said he could have run them over with a truck.

So don't ban trucks or something.

Made me so mad I wanted to reach through the computer screen and punch him.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:49 PM

153. Thank you for posting this, WilliamPitt. n/t

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:50 PM

155. Yes, I remember DU.

I just returned a couple of months ago, after having stormed off in a giant huff during the Great Clinton v Obama Dem Primary War. What I find disturbing today is the army of obvious trolls sucking people into their little reindeer games here.

Back in the early days of DU, when you and I knew that Robb was a dingbat and trolls were TSed regularly, Someone usually posted "Don't feed the trolls," and life went on.

The jury process is kind of cool, but what happened to the Mods?

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:51 PM

156. K&R

Fucking kick and recommend!!!!

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:54 PM

158. Thank you, Will.

I just don't understand people who claim to be liberals going into automatic gun defense mode instead of expressing their horror and sadness and even anger that 26 people - 20 of them children, were gunned down in cold blood. That has no place here. I have zero tolerance for the same ol' cliches gun fetishists use every time a massacre happens. I'm fucking done with their flaccid arguments and pathetic attempts to defend owning weapons that were made to snuff out life.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:57 PM

160. There's a reason there's a gungeon.

Up until today, the gun worshippers were sequestered from the rest of DU for a reason. Today, I think we see why.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:03 PM

166. I agree....and its not just guns and violence here

that are making it tough for me to stay. Its the gender wars, the flame wars.....a little bit of everything.

Unfortunately, I see this place becoming a lot like FR.....except we CLAIM to be Democrats.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:06 PM

170. Been reading since 2001.

Was too busy with school to be posting back then, but I've read many of yours. You are absolutely right. The level of rightwing nuttery/dickishness on here has gotten out of control. And not just relating to guns, but basic human rights. I read stuff that's way to the right of most straight-ticket Republicans I personally know. How is that possible?

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:07 PM

171. Yeah, I hear you.

 

Has there been major infiltration by the right-wing paid trash? Something smells.

It's like you can't get a good cup of coffee anymore unless you pay $2. That was a non sequitur, but it needed to be said,

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:09 PM

173. I'm gonna wear out the ignore button today.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:23 PM

181. + 100. You gotta ask yourself

why they sign onto a forum that is supposed to be liberal. Pot? Libertarian? Troll? Paid disinformationist?

If I wanted to belong to a big tent that held all kinds of idiot views, I would go to a republican site.

Kick 'em out.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:26 PM

184. Wow Will, Im sorry to see you advocate this

I have been here longer than most (10+ years) and I am a firm progressive. I dont need to defend my liberal credentials to anyone. I am also a firm believer in an individual's right to bear arms. I believe that people can disagree on particular topics (gun control for example) and still work toward the common goal of a more liberal, progressive United States. I also believe that advocating the banning of people for expressing dissenting opinions is sad and counterproductive. I understand your desire to 'clean house' of trolls but I think the jury/alert system and the ignore button are better remedies.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:33 PM

192. I am a gunsmith by trade

 

I repair, and build guns. (Mostly repair)

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:35 PM

193. I leave this place for 4 hours and now we have Chinese with Knives? WTF?



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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:45 PM

196. I remember.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:54 PM

203. Gee Will, a purge of gun owners because they aren't allowed to be democrats?

Talk about slippery slopes. I think there are already anti gun sites for people so fiercely committed to the cause.

I'm not commenting on the shooting today, but should we then purge the site of anyone who is pro-life? After all, most liberals are for choice. Many here may want a separate purge for those who don't endorse gay marriage.

Liberal Democrats come in many different flavors and it's not right to start kicking people out of the tent because they stick out from the confines of your so sharply defined mold:



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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:56 PM

205. Yep, I do. Right, Will.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:57 PM

206. After DU consideration, I agree with you Will. Indeed, this thread has made your point.

Kicked and Recommended.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:01 PM

209. K&R The dead children do not care about the size of the gun or the caliber.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:15 PM

214. I agree with you EXCEPT

Where do we draw the line?

I believe in the right to bear arms. I have never had a gun, but I might want one someday if I am elderly, alone and feel vulnerable.

I think people should be able to have a weapon for personal protection and for hunting.

But I strongly believe we need gun control, to keep guns out of the hands of children and mentally unstable people. We also do not need guns that can spit out lots of bullets in just a few seconds.

So should I be banned from DU, under your proposal? If not, where do you draw the line?

If you can define the difference between people like me and NRA mouthpieces, I would happily support banning them all.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:17 PM

215. Aw hell

As much as I believe the gun problem needs to be handled, I don't see the point of banning anybody who disagrees with me.
I want to hear the other side because it helps me understand how they think. As long as the discourse is civil.

I know I mentioned the Chinese issue today because I was more concerned with the intent of the person who wants to do violence to children more than the tools they use to accomplish it. Hope that is understood and not having people think I am advocating gun usage?
I'll be the 1st one to admit that I don't know how to fix the violence in america.
Don't own a gun, probably will never own one, but have thought of it before. I'm scared to be out knowing that someone else can pull a trigger and kill me or my loved ones.

Here's where I'm having a problem though.
I'm not feeling comfortable that if we banned all firearms tomorrow, we would be safer.
Those law abiding people who will turn in their weapons may be outnumbered by those who don't. I don't think that the LEO's we have will be able to prevent those with weapons from preying on those who don't have them.

Basically, I'm scared to take the 1st step knowing that we don't have the infrastructure (in this case, Law Enforcement staff) available to prevent murders from happening rather than punishing them after they happen.
Our gun culture is so entrenched that I don't know what to do. I just know that killing kids is unacceptable and something has to be done.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:25 PM

219. +1,000,000,000,000,000

and an Amen.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:32 PM

224. With you William Pitt! Did you see that travesty of a cross post from Freepville? We've been

invaded.

And I'm re-considering my membership here. The only thing stopping me is that I don't want to turn this place over to this . . . . ahem . . . element.

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Response to patrice (Reply #276)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:14 AM

277. Yuck.



Sorry I asked....

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:35 PM

226. I do

I had someone repeatedly call me a liar because I posted (entirely truthfully, btw) about my mail delivery.


I always tell my kids that 3 of the most important words in the English language are "SAVE TO DRAFTS".

Before you send an email or say something rash, save to drafts and come back in a few hours and think again.
Maybe there should be a ten minute delay on posts so people can reconsider and treat each other with some respect.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:37 PM

228. Well said!!

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:41 PM

230. Amen. That story about the knife guy in China was posted how many times today???

And I was working so I only checked a few times. But every time I looked at DU today, I saw that story.

Shame on DUers who posted that story TODAY. Shame on you.

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Response to proud2BlibKansan (Reply #230)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:46 PM

234. Look at the Susan Rice stuff that ran yesterday. Almost all of it, total HORSECRAP.

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Response to proud2BlibKansan (Reply #230)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:33 PM

246. Shame more on the jurors who vote to keep it

when it is clearly coming from trolls.

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Response to Hissyspit (Reply #246)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:11 AM

265. Agreed

I also alerted on a post where one of our gun nuts called someone a liar. Jury voted to let it stay.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:43 PM

232. From DU2, to DU3 this place has moved to the right......

not totally to the right, but more than I would like to see. I remember a DU that would have come uncorked when Obama said "Now is not the time to point fingers." and let the Bush/Cheney crew walk free and "Wall St. did nothing illegal." and the bankers walked free and when he failed to put up a fight for single Payer health Care. I remember a DU that would have said now is time to take to the streets in mass protest not put forth all kinds of excuses about how protest doesn't work and we'll vote them out next time. I think DU today represents what the democratic party has morphed into. Remember when democrats had some spine and fight? I know democrats that are anti-union. Geeezzzz!

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Response to Hotler (Reply #232)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:52 PM

237. Part of the problem is that some of that is calling itself "the Left" and acting like the Reich and

this week an alliance between Kucinich and Ron Paul was added to the mix, so we're probably looking at Ron/RAND Paul supporters here talking lefty/anarchy stuff just enough to get under the radar, but mainly with the objective of fucking with health care reform in preparation for the 2014 election.

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Response to patrice (Reply #237)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:33 PM

247. Shit! That is fucked up. I have not read about that yet. N/t

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Response to Hotler (Reply #247)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:55 PM

251. You have to look at the number of times what styles itself as "the Left" either is substantially

misinformed or is lying and, yet, ventures major fundamental policy judgements and PREDICTIONS that basically add up to fracturing either Democratic support or support for President Obama.

And I'm not talking about good-faith disagreements on the issues here, because when the sort of thing I'm talking about is challenged, no amount of logic or facts or process issues ever affect it.

I'm a Leftie/Liberal myself, with strong Socialist leanings myself on specific issues, but this stuff that sacrifices progressive outcomes to purist/ideological base building is questionable to say the least.

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Response to Hotler (Reply #247)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 08:03 AM

300. I could not find any information on this subject whatsoever,

other than this and other pieces related to this:

Kucinich, Paul and Holt Introduce Bipartisan Resolution to Compel White House to Release Legal Justification for Drone Strikes

Congressmen Dennis Kucinich (D-OH), Ron Paul (R-TX) and Rush Holt Jr. (D-NJ) today introduced H. Res. 819, a resolution of inquiry to compel the Administration to release documents which it reportedly uses as the legal justification for the use of drones to assassinate people abroad, including United States citizens, without trial. According to the Bureau of Investigative Journalism, our drone strikes have killed more than 3,000 people including as many as 1,105 innocent civilians since 2002.


Since this is an anti-gun violence thread, I'm really hoping that drone strikes that kill children in other countries are just as unacceptable to those on the left as some lunatic shooting children in the US is, or Orwell's "War is Peace" has become reality, and left has become right.


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Response to Zorra (Reply #300)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:29 PM

329. I can assure you that they are. The questions are about how best to achieve authentic CHANGE & not

just temporary abatement to satisfy some form of political facism, from whatever part of the political spectrum, only for the whole drone evoking dynamic to morph and articulate itself elsewhere in other terms, under WORSE pressures geo-economically.

And in that particular regard: Ron Paul's son Rand Paul supports a pledge of allegiance to the NRA for Senators to prevent any treaties with the UN regarding the flow of weapons, including tidal waves of small arms like that we see associated with "Fast and Furious" http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/atf-fast-furious-sg,0,3828090.storygallery flowing into 3rd World countries and, thus, continuously accelerating the kinds of factors that result in the deaths of even more innocents, the betrayal of American troops and the use of drones.

Do you REALLY think Ron Paul gives a rat's ass about peace? His and Rand's ONLY concern with war managed by the government is the extent to which it interferes with FREE MARKET WAR PROFITEERING. I will never forgive Dennis Kucinich, impotent political opportunist that he is, for taking up with Ron/Rand Paul because he has NO political base and the reason that he has no political base is because he is nothing but a token peace advocate, along for the ride. And if people can kick PO's ass for his assumed in-effectuality, well then, Dennis is certainly at least a valid, though lesser, target for the same critique.

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Response to patrice (Reply #329)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:19 PM

339. Please forgive me if I don't take your word for it; I am a big fan of facts and proof, and

you offered none. When I add into the mix that you obviously dislike Rep. Kucinich, I'm not buying what you are selling.

A lot of centrists absolutely hate DK; his progressive Democrat anti-Corporatist Third Way positions piss them off royally. Centrists voted to go to War in Iraq, Dennis fought against it with everything he had.

As for Ron and Rand Paul, they scare me, but if they want to help stop our government from killing innocent civilians, well, that's good. Even a blind pig finds an acorn once in awhile.

To shit all over Dennis by trying to conflate him with Ron and Rand Paul, just because you don't like him, is totally disingenuous.





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Response to Zorra (Reply #339)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:28 PM

340. k, so you FAVOR the unlimited flow of weapons into 3rd world countries as long as they aren't drones

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Response to patrice (Reply #340)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:46 PM

344. Whoa, what in the f**k are you talking about? Your last 3 posts make no sense. nt

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Response to Zorra (Reply #339)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:30 PM

341. Which also means you favor political wars of choice responding to the flow of weapons into those

destabilized countries.

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Response to Zorra (Reply #339)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:32 PM

342. So, what do you think of the UN? & How do you explain DK HARMING the UN this way? nt

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Response to Zorra (Reply #339)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:34 PM

343. And yes there's lots of important information we don't & CAN'T know, but here's Rand's PLEDGE of

Allegiance to the NRA that he is trying to force down the throats of the Senate:

http://www.nagr.org/UN_lp_survey2.aspx

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Response to patrice (Reply #343)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:57 PM

346. WTF? What does that have to do with Dennis Kucinich? Nothing whatsoever.

Trying to conflate Dennis Kucinich, or me, with the philosophies/ideologies of Ron and Rand Paul is bullshit.

I'm gone beyond left of communism, and Dennis Kucinich is the furthest left progressive Rep we have in Congress.

Yeah, there's a lot of information we can't know ~ but that certainly doesn't give us license to totally make things up about people out of thin air.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:48 PM

236. I AM WITH YOU.

I posted on a thread that I am sick of DU giving the gun nuts a place to spew their filth.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:52 PM

238. The guns thing makes it obvious, but it's not just guns. DU has a griefer problem.

The shooting gives the griefers the ideal environment for them to stir the shit and make every thread on DU go diagonal.

It's LOOOOOOONG past time to clean house here.

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #238)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:51 PM

262. I agree nt

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:56 PM

242. Can we organize somehow? Boycott? nt

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:12 PM

243. K & R

Gun enthusiasts and mass killing apologists have plenty of sad, nasty places on the net that they can occupy. We don't need them here.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:40 PM

248. And to all those folks who have a concealed carry to go grocery shopping . . .

You are a coward. You are a victim.

You have given up, you are paranoid. You might as well take that gun and put it to your temple and pull the trigger.

You aren't living life. You're waiting to die.

In the meantime, people like you make weapons available to those who are even more paranoid that you are.

I'm a grandma. Come fuck with me.

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Response to kaiden (Reply #248)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:45 PM

260. Speak truth to power, fellow Grandma! n/t

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Response to kaiden (Reply #248)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:32 AM

286. +1000

Beautifully stated.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:33 PM

255. K&R n/t

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:44 PM

258. I'm sick and tired of gun nuts whining about their fucking rights when children are dead...

Well said, Will!

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:46 PM

261. Recommend #224

Some of the shit on here these days is enough to make me puke. I find myself questioning why I waste time on DU any more. (Of course, it is because a minority of people here, old and new, are decent.)

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:16 AM

267. In addition to the people who used the Chinese knife guy to justify gun laws, can we also

immediately ban anyone who uses that assinine "spoons don't make you obese" analogy. Life is too short to have to listen to the morons spew that crap over and over again.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #267)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:17 AM

278. How about banning the "cars kill people too" folks like this douche....

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #278)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 07:50 AM

296. YES! These people are so irresponsible, and today that kind of irresponsibility is shown for what

it is.

I don't want to listen to it any more.

And to all the people saying we need to discuss this in the name of free speech I say: Seriously? You can discuss this all you want. When you are all done with the discussion, 20 babies and 8 adults will STILL be dead. The person who owned these guns no doubt thought of herself as a "responsible gun owner." Her son used her responsible guns to take out the "responsible gun owner" and every innocent bystander he could get.

"Responsible gun owners" do not have the right to endanger everyone around them. And that's exactly what they do.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:45 AM

270. Yes. I remember DU. It was my refuge from the GWB era, the place where I came to feel sane.

Any more... so many trolls and morons.

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Response to October (Reply #270)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 07:32 AM

293. Yep, uncontrolled trolls exploiting the big tent doctrine and RW morons

advocating RW positions and causes.

What we are seeing is so very different from the GWB days, or even 2007-2008. The good old days are long gone.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:45 AM

271. One of the first thing I noticed about DU was the plethora of gun porn posts

 

I was shocked by the number of them. I never knew anybody who was that obsessed with guns who wasn't a wingnut. until I came to DU. Shocked to find that attitude at a message board devoted to Democratic causes.

So today hasn't surprised me. But I am surprised it is tolerated.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:05 AM

275. Maybe we need some changes around here, or someplace worthwhile to go instead

I agree that DU is not the same as years ago (when I used a different alias). Today DU is just a rant space and the world would be the same without it. The substance is missing. Now, any random, impulsive thought qualifies as an OP. We used to do real work around this place, collaborating on investigations, amassing evidence, etc.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:52 AM

287. The problem of gun violence can be addressed from many angles

but action needs to be taken. No more rhetoric and lame debates.

Assault guns, multiple shot clips and magazines, guns that are
clearly designed to massacre lots of humans should be banned.

The prisons should be emptied of non-violent offenders and drug
addicts. Laws against gun violence should be some of the toughest.
If a gun is involved in a crime in any way, penalties should be tough.
Minimum sentencing makes sense in the case of gun violence.

Make sales at gun shows illegal.

Add the NRA to the list of terrorist organizations.

Stop the war on drugs. Start a war against guns -- a PR war, an
enforcement war, an intelligence war...

There are many ways to approach this. It will require the efforts of
many people, and a committed leader, to accomplish any change.

Why aren't evangelical Christians seen picketing and harrassing
customers outside of gun shops ???

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:34 AM

288. If you feel that you need a gun to be safe...

Then this ain't a county worth living in

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 08:42 AM

305. A BASIC CALL TO CONSCIOUSNESS

I've always been supportive of people being able to keep firearms for hunting. But nowadays...there's just waaaay too many deranged people in this country, and they should not have access to deadly weapons.

But please, please, please, wake up, folks. Yes, it's partly the guns, but the reality of this phenomenon is that this insanity goes so much deeper than just the guns. These chronic killings are a symptom of a much more deadly and insidious pathology.

A Basic Call to Consciousness

“The way of life known as Western Civilization is on a death path…Our essential message to the world is a basic call to consciousness. The destruction of native cultures and people is the same process which has destroyed and is destroying life on this planet…

“…The principles of righteousness demand that all thoughts of prejudice, privilege or superiority be swept away and that recognition be given to the reality that Creation is intended for the benefit of all equally — even the birds and the animals, the trees and insects, as well as the human beings…”

“We are living in a period of time in which we expect to see great changes in the economy of the colonizers…We will soon see the end of an economy based on the supply of cheap oil, natural gas, and other resources, and that will greatly change the face of the world…”

“…The people who are living on this planet need to break with the narrow concept of human liberation, and begin to see liberation as something which needs to be extended to the whole of the Natural World. What is needed is the liberation of all the things that support Life — the air, the waters, the trees — all the things which support the sacred web of Life…”


(This Haudenosaunee Address to the Western World was first articulated to an array of NGOs at the United Nations in Geneva, Switzerland, October 1977)

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 08:54 AM

306. Start your own website

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:49 AM

311. I originally recced the article you wrote about, because I thought it was a discussion of

sick cultures versus healthy cultures. Because I see what happened not so much a problem with guns but a sick society that is not taking care of its people and its mentally ill.

I know I might be wrong but that's what I took away from all of this. Yes, gun control would sharply reduce incidents like these but we are still a sick society and we still need to change for the better, even if we get gun control passed.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:43 AM

315. Right on.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:14 PM

325. It seems like the 2008 Election brought a lot of non-progressive jerks here.

It was NEVER like this before 2008, then it went all to shit.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:52 PM

330. I agree and I say basta! Enough! N/t

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:49 PM

345. I DU... And I... Aw Fuck It...

& Rec !!!

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