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Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:00 PM

Here is the gun used to murder children in our schools. Did the founding fathers envision this?

Last edited Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:16 PM - Edit history (1)



Could they have foreseen this kind of weapon? Would they have enshrined our right to own it in the Constitution? Could we maybe start having a conversation about this now? Do you need this gun to protect your home or to hunt with? What would you do with this other than kill as many people as possible as quickly as possible?

Here is what I posted on Facebook earlier today: High schools, colleges, public meetings with your congressman, movie theaters, malls, elementary schools... if you're starting to fear going to all of these places you might consider that you've been terrorized. How much more of this has to happen before we call it terrorism and decide to reject it as vehemently as we did foreign terrorists? The only difference between suicide bombers and these guys is the weapons they choose to use. The end result is the same.

EDIT: Sourced from CNN: http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/12/14/shooting-reported-at-connecticut-elementary-school/?hpt=hp_t1

The Bushmaster .223 found at the scene is a semi automatic weapon, the source says. Two other weapons found were handguns, a Sig-Sauer and a Glock.


If this information is incorrect then I apologize but that is the report that I just read.

UPDATE: CNN has finally added information indicating the rifle pictured here was found in the car:

According to the law enforcement official, the Glock and Sig Sauer handguns were found inside the school with the deceased gunman. The Bushmaster was found in a car outside the school.


Before that update there was NO indication that the gun was not found with the shooter. I apologize for writing a thread based on incorrect information but I expect a major media outlet to provide reliable information.

The sentiment I expressed is absolutely the same. We cannot live in fear of these maniacs. Something needs to be done. Why is your right to own a gun more important than a sense of safety in this Country? We are being terrorized by these shootings.

FURTHER UPDATE FROM CNN: "More on what the state's chief medical examiner told reporters minutes ago in Newtown: He said the "rifle" was used in the shooting, and that the rifle caused all of the wounds that he knew of."

ALL OF THE WOUNDS!

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Reply Here is the gun used to murder children in our schools. Did the founding fathers envision this? (Original post)
Hyper_Eye Dec 2012 OP
cliffordu Dec 2012 #1
Hyper_Eye Dec 2012 #4
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #10
kestrel91316 Dec 2012 #13
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #17
rustydog Dec 2012 #81
ManiacJoe Dec 2012 #20
ProgressiveProfessor Dec 2012 #50
Major Nikon Dec 2012 #63
ProgressiveProfessor Dec 2012 #66
Major Nikon Dec 2012 #71
ProgressiveProfessor Dec 2012 #80
Major Nikon Dec 2012 #85
ProgressiveProfessor Dec 2012 #86
Major Nikon Dec 2012 #87
ProgressiveProfessor Dec 2012 #89
Major Nikon Dec 2012 #92
Democracyinkind Dec 2012 #96
cliffordu Dec 2012 #91
cliffordu Dec 2012 #90
Edweird Dec 2012 #98
Hyper_Eye Dec 2012 #14
bettyellen Dec 2012 #94
PDJane Dec 2012 #106
OrwellwasRight Dec 2012 #119
elleng Dec 2012 #18
cliffordu Dec 2012 #48
elleng Dec 2012 #52
ProgressiveProfessor Dec 2012 #51
elleng Dec 2012 #75
pnwmom Dec 2012 #55
NYC_SKP Dec 2012 #72
cliffordu Dec 2012 #77
NYC_SKP Dec 2012 #78
cliffordu Dec 2012 #79
Tumbulu Dec 2012 #82
BigDemVoter Dec 2012 #83
sanatanadharma Dec 2012 #101
godai Dec 2012 #102
City Lights Dec 2012 #103
AndyA Dec 2012 #104
former-republican Dec 2012 #2
godai Dec 2012 #105
former-republican Dec 2012 #108
godai Dec 2012 #111
Lizzie Poppet Dec 2012 #3
Hyper_Eye Dec 2012 #11
Lizzie Poppet Dec 2012 #19
TPaine7 Dec 2012 #24
Tumbulu Dec 2012 #84
Marrah_G Dec 2012 #5
NeedleCast Dec 2012 #6
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #7
Zoeisright Dec 2012 #8
ProgressiveProfessor Dec 2012 #53
doc03 Dec 2012 #9
oldbanjo Dec 2012 #30
shadowrider Dec 2012 #37
doc03 Dec 2012 #43
Hyper_Eye Dec 2012 #45
doc03 Dec 2012 #47
cliffordu Dec 2012 #93
joesdaughter Dec 2012 #12
Hyper_Eye Dec 2012 #16
ManiacJoe Dec 2012 #21
k2qb3 Dec 2012 #23
ManiacJoe Dec 2012 #27
Hyper_Eye Dec 2012 #28
ManiacJoe Dec 2012 #34
Hyper_Eye Dec 2012 #39
ManiacJoe Dec 2012 #60
Hyper_Eye Dec 2012 #120
ManiacJoe Dec 2012 #122
Hyper_Eye Dec 2012 #38
theinquisitivechad Dec 2012 #15
k2qb3 Dec 2012 #22
bongbong Dec 2012 #25
k2qb3 Dec 2012 #35
bongbong Dec 2012 #42
k2qb3 Dec 2012 #49
bongbong Dec 2012 #76
nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 #115
Hyper_Eye Dec 2012 #26
ManiacJoe Dec 2012 #31
Hyper_Eye Dec 2012 #32
ManiacJoe Dec 2012 #40
k2qb3 Dec 2012 #33
oldbanjo Dec 2012 #36
union_maid Dec 2012 #44
trouble.smith Dec 2012 #29
Marrah_G Dec 2012 #41
ProgressiveProfessor Dec 2012 #54
pnwmom Dec 2012 #57
ProgressiveProfessor Dec 2012 #62
pnwmom Dec 2012 #64
ProgressiveProfessor Dec 2012 #67
pnwmom Dec 2012 #68
ProgressiveProfessor Dec 2012 #69
bigdarryl Dec 2012 #46
ProgressiveProfessor Dec 2012 #56
Liberal_in_LA Dec 2012 #58
TheKentuckian Dec 2012 #59
baldguy Dec 2012 #61
Trailrider1951 Dec 2012 #65
Bjorn Against Dec 2012 #114
cthulu2016 Dec 2012 #70
NYC_SKP Dec 2012 #73
Auntie Bush Dec 2012 #74
X_Digger Dec 2012 #88
cliffordu Dec 2012 #95
X_Digger Dec 2012 #99
cantbeserious Dec 2012 #97
Major Hogwash Dec 2012 #100
Hyper_Eye Dec 2012 #109
Phlem Dec 2012 #117
Barkoff Dec 2012 #107
Deuce Dec 2012 #110
nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 #113
pinboy3niner Dec 2012 #116
nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 #118
nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 #112
sendero Dec 2012 #121

Response to Hyper_Eye (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:02 PM

1. Bullshit. He used two pistols. *******EDITED******

Last edited Sat Dec 15, 2012, 06:55 PM - Edit history (2)

it's going to be hard enough to control firearms without ignorant flamebait shit like this being posted here.

Shame on you. Liar.


*******ADDENDUM: I was wrong. I just found out the medical examiner sez the assault rifle was used.

I am sorry, but will leave this screed for forensic purposes. You have my humble apology************

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Response to cliffordu (Reply #1)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:03 PM

4. From CNN.com...

The Bushmaster .223 found at the scene is a semi automatic weapon, the source says. Two other weapons found were handguns, a Sig-Sauer and a Glock.


If someone is lying it isn't me.

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Response to Hyper_Eye (Reply #4)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:06 PM

10. He used two handguns, he did not use the semi rifle

The .223 is a semi auto rifle that is the same as a hunting rifle.

Like someone else said, discussion of gun issues has to be based on facts, from all sides (because there are way more than two).

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #10)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:10 PM

13. That's not any hunting rifle I'VE ever seen. That's a military weapon.

Folks who need something like that to hunt with have serious bodily inadequacy issues, IMHO.


THIS is a hunting rifle:


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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #13)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:12 PM

17. It is the same as most hunting rifles

They are actually not allowed to hunt deer in some states because they aren't powerful enough.

All that stuff on them is to make them look cool, like spoilers on a car, but the engines are the same, so to speak.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #17)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:46 PM

81. NRA version of Viagra?

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #13)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:16 PM

20. Pretty vs practical.

Pick the cosmetics that appeal most to you.

Remove the pretty wood, add the ugly black plastic. Same gun, different looks, same capabilities.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #13)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:23 PM

50. Then your experience is limited and not recent

AR format rifles are available in hunting calibers.

Judging things by appearances alone is not something most adults would consider reasonable.

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #50)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:44 PM

63. Judging them by things like fire rate and ammo capacity is

I own a deer rifle and it does not look or operate like this. While they may be available in "hunting calibers" (whatever that means) and some people might use them for such, they certainly aren't necessary for the task. A simple bolt action rifle that holds 4-5 rounds internally is more than adequate for the job of hunting any game in North America, yet very poorly suited for murdering large groups of people even if it is technically possible. It took Charles Whitman hours to kill 13 people and he was highly intelligent and a highly skilled marksman. Today any toad sucking moron can fairly easily murder dozens with what he can find in mommie's closet. Most reasonable people see something wrong with that.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #63)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:58 PM

66. You don't know what hunting calibers mean?

The most popular rifle being sold today is a AR Clone of some kind. They come in varying calibers including those traditionally considered "hunting calibers" such as .308. They are also less expensive than most new bolt action rifles, depending on grade. Depending on the state and what you are hunting, there are magazine limitation for firearms, including rifle and pistols.

The Texas Tower is a weak analogy since once he started shooting, his potential targets scattered and went to ground. Also there are pols (the stupid ones) who also want to ban bolt action hunting rifles since they are "sniper assault weapons" that can pierce soft body armor. Then again given what Gunny Hathcock did with his bolt action rifle, they may have a point.

The firearms features that you are complaining about have been available freely in the US civilian populace since WWI and been used for hunting since then.

Kestrel is judging things on appearance, not functionality, which is one of the reasons the AWB failed. The correct approach would be a functional one, which seems to elude pols and the Brady Bunch. However, there is not much hope it would pass.

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #66)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:33 PM

71. Most any caliber can hunt, professor

It's only a question of if you're hunting prairie dog or brown bear. So yes, I know what it means but YMMV.

I'm not complaining about any features. I'm just pointing out there's differences between what is well suited for hunting and what is clearly not necessary for the task. The Charles Whitman example is relevant because it shows what happens today vs what happened back then. Even though surplus military hardware was available, it sure as hell wasn't as prolific as it is today which is why there weren't more Charles Whitmans. Those who were buying surplus military hardware preferred bolt action rifles and even then they were replacing the military style stocks with Monte Carlo style hunting stocks. My dad and I converted dozens of them for hunters.

The AWB failed because a very vocal minority was able to use money and mostly right wing political muscle to further the interests of those who cling to their weapons and bibles. The AWB didn't go nearly far enough because it was kneecapped by the same ideologues from the very beginning. It also couldn't adapt to the changes gun manufactures made to get around the law because those same ideologues prevented it. Had reasonable ammo capacity and reloading requirements been imposed from the start and the law could have been adapted as gun manufactures adapted, the likelihood of said toad sucking moron's ability for mass murder would have unquestionably been curtailed. So let's please not pretend that it was the gun control side's fault for any perceived "failure" you might imagine because that's just not how it went down. This one squarely fits on the shoulders of the gun nuts.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #71)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:39 PM

80. Indeed you can hunt with just about any round type, depending on the target

There is nothing about a semi auto/detachable magazine fed rifle that makes it any less suitable than a bolt action or lever action rifle. Less traditional, but that is about it. 7.62*39 SKS makes a might fine modern replacement for the 30-30.

Military surplus weapons are actually less available today than in years past. The military has never sold anything more modern than semi automatic weapons from WWII. M-14s. M-16s, and M-4s have never been sold to civilians, though some older weapons have been sold/transferred to law enforcement. What is popular is the AR style platform, and it is booming. Most popular rifle sold today. Described as Gun Lego and that is sure what it seems to be.

The AWB was conceptually flawed. Either the authors screwed it up or it was surreptitiously submarined by the nefarious gun nuts. Having spent time inside the Beltway and tend to go with stupid pols. It is clearly the percentage bet. At the time I recall discussions from the Brandy Bunch et al that they thought they had an effective law they could build on and believed that renewal would be no problem. They were wrong and even the CDC agreed it was ineffective. Blame whom you will but it failed and it is gone. Moreover, even the Brady etc understand that and will try to build an effective one this time around. Its going to be a helluva fight.

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #80)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:48 AM

85. I choose my words carefully

I suspected that since you are obviously a professor you would have noticed, but apparently not. I never claimed a "semi auto/detachable magazine fed rifle" was less suitable for hunting. I said it was not necessary. So please next time please pay better attention to what I actually said rather than what you think I said, or what you wish I had said, or what you can better build your strawman, because if you don't I'm simply going to point out your obvious error and reduce your exercise to one of futility that's a waste of your time typing it and my time reading it.

The availability of military surplus weapons today was not the case in 1994, and whether they are more or less available today is irrelevant because those are the style of weapons proliferating today, thanks to gun nuts who want to dress up in plus size camo and live out their pseudo military fantasies. So I just don't see the point in pretending these types of weapons are really about anything that's remotely related to hunting or anything else that doesn't involve the most efficient way to kill other human beings. It's about a civilian weapons race where pretty much everyone loses other than the NRA and gun manufacturers.

If anything does happen this time around, the reason it will be a "helluva fight" is because the US is filled to the brim with dipshit gun nuts that are too daft to realize the US is the only country in the G8 (besides Russia) with virtually no gun control and a gun homicide rate that rivals and surpasses many 3rd world countries and who want to pretend those things aren't related. Instead they want to make silly arguments about irrelevant facts and claim the reason gun control doesn't work is because of stupid politicians. The actual reason is stupid people. Not sayin' you, of course, but just sayin'.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #85)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:28 AM

86. The review your own words with care

I'm just pointing out there's differences between what is well suited for hunting and what is clearly not necessary for the task.


Your words were clear that some firearms are better suited for hunting than others. That is simply not true. Perhaps you could make a case that wooden stock are clearly less suitable that composite ones, but beyond that its a not a viable argument. Necessity is not a factor in suitability either. 1903 Springfields are not the only military style rifles that are "suitable" for hunting. An AR in 308 is as suitable as a Remington 700 bolt action and either action is most likely more accurate that most shooters.

Even though surplus military hardware was available, it sure as hell wasn't as prolific as it is today which is why there weren't more Charles Whitmans.


The availability of military surplus weapons today was not the case in 1994, and whether they are more or less available today is irrelevant because those are the style of weapons proliferating today


You are wrong about the availability of military surplus weapons today since nothing modern is being sold and the point stands. Instead new civilian versions are being sold and the represent the majority of new rifles being sold today. That you do not like them is clear. You seem locked on the hunting/necessity side of things. It is a common fallacy and the courts and legislatures have both rejected it. That may change over time but sporting and self defense are equally valid today and necessity does not figure into it legally.


It's about a civilian weapons race where pretty much everyone loses other than the NRA and gun manufacturers.


The margins on gun manufacturing, especially the AR format is pretty skinny with so many manufacturers in the market. NRA is a non-profit whose books are open, whom do you believe is profiting there?

the US is the only country in the G8 (besides Russia) with virtually no gun control and a gun homicide rate that rivals and surpasses many 3rd world countries


The US has substantive gun control laws. Assault rifles and other selective fire weapons are closely controlled. Even with civilian firearms, some localities are stricter than others, and like some 3rd world nations, the capriciousness in their application is disheartening. They also reflect historic racism and classism in some parts of the US even today.

You are of course free to disparage those whom you disagree with on this issue, but they represent a sizable group of voters. The polls are all over the place, and today's events may change them for a while, but fundamentally in the US Shall Issue CCW, Castle Doctrine, Stand Your Ground, and AR format rifles are all growing in popularity. If that turns around, particularly in a short time it would be momentous. I do not see it happening. At most there will be a few changes in some of the already more restrictive states and little to nothing on the Federal level. The BATF may go on some sort of regulatory offensive, but it will be slowed/stopped in the courts. The party, fearful of another backlash will most likely let it go for fear of losing the Senate again. That is my prediction, YMMV

To me the real issue is level of violence we are seeing today. We have had equivalent firearms in US civilian hands since WWI, but not this level of violence. Solve that and there will be real progress.

I know and have trained GLBTs in firearms simply because they had no other choices. Bashing doesn't just happen in bad neighborhoods and sometimes follows them home. I won't deny them the basic tools of self defense, even if it has more than a 5 or 10 round magazine. They will also be glad to dispose of their firearms when they believe they no long need them. For me, that is good enough for now

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #86)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:39 AM

87. Please go peddle your gun nut gibberish somewhere else, professor

I didn't get past your first sentence. If I wanted to read this garbage, I'd surf the NRA or freeper web sites.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #87)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:02 AM

89. Hoist on your own petard you are



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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #89)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:22 AM

92. That's rich

The first thing you write is a continuation of a point you were obviously dead wrong about, but can't seem to let go. Then apparently blinded by your own egocentrism, you act butthurt when someone doesn't want to read your right wing talking points on a left biased site and make silly projectionist claims about petards. If nothing else you are amusing, 'professor'.

Cheers!

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #86)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:58 AM

96. I read it as "all guns are suited for hunting, but some (types) aren't necessary for it" NT

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #80)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:18 AM

91. +10000

Yep, exactly.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #13)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:05 AM

90. Oddly enough, that looks a lot like the.

Sniper rifle I used in Vietnam.

A true assault rifle.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #13)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 06:31 AM

98. That's a pellet rifle not a firearm.

 

It's a Weihrauch HW97K Carbine Air Rifle.

http://www.wonderlandmodels.com/brands/weihrauch/

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #10)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:10 PM

14. That was the information presented by CNN

They did not specify that the weapon was in the car but that it was "found at the scene". The first conclusion would be that the gunman carried all three guns which is not uncommon during these incidents.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #10)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:46 AM

94. Latest reports are they found additional weapons at the school.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #10)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:41 PM

106. The coroner examined the bodies.

All of them were killed with a .223 Bushmaster.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #10)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:59 PM

119. It is NOT the same as a hunting rifle.

My dad had and used one. It looked like this:



Do a Google image search for hunting rifle. Semi-automatic assault style weapons are not what comes up. Actual rifles, such as the one pictured above, any many others like it, the type that one would use to take down and eat a deer, elk, or antelope do come up. I never knew a hunter to riddle the big game with bullets. The goal is to take it down with one shot, two if you aren't that good with your aim. Why would you need a semi-automatic to hunt? Do you actually hunt?

PS: He DID use the semi automatic. Why are you calling to OP a liar? Try reading the news and not the NRA's propaganda.

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Response to cliffordu (Reply #1)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:13 PM

18. Really no need for such language, ESPECIALLY at this time.

Facts are hard to come by, shortly after disasters.

'Law enforcement officials said the weapons used by the gunman were a Sig Sauer and a Glock, both handguns. The police also found an M4 carbine at the scene that they believe belonged to the gunman.'

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/15/nyregion/shooting-reported-at-connecticut-elementary-school.html?hp&_r=0

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Response to elleng (Reply #18)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:49 PM

48. You're commenting on my goddamned language??

Twenty little coffins next week.

Those babies are probably STILL laying were they died today due to the forensic work that needs being done.

They have probably chilled the room as much as possible to make the work less obscene.


Lying about the guns used during this abomination is a cheap, shitty scare tactic.

He used pistols for this and it took a long time to kill all of those people.

It is the availability of THOSE COMMON, EASILY OBTAINED, RELATIVELY CHEAP PISTOLS that need to be addressed.

Big ugly black rifles with bayonets and flash suppressors are a sideshow for the peeps who know nothing about killing with firearms.

A Ruger .22 LR with a couple extra magazines and a red dot scope is all you need to perform all the mayhem this fucking asshole did, and then some. A LOT more.

But the sideshow, the "OMFG!! IT'S A SCARY BLACK ASSAULT WEAPON" hysteria will continue, ad nauseum.

Don't bother flaming me over this.

My heart broke today when Sharpton said that there will be 20 little coffins next week that someone will have to speak over.

I could not do that.

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Response to cliffordu (Reply #48)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:24 PM

52. You know the definition of a 'lie,' right?

and the problem actually discerning the truth, immediately after trauma?

You think you're the only one whose heart broke today?
Get real.

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Response to elleng (Reply #18)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:24 PM

51. Other language, much worst than this is being tolerated...

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #51)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:45 PM

75. I'm sure.

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Response to cliffordu (Reply #1)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:28 PM

55. Most reports say he did use the .223. Why don't you wait till all the details

are clear before you lash out like that?

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Response to cliffordu (Reply #1)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:34 PM

72. But but, it's scary and it's black.

It think it's the black part that scares people.

And that curved thing sticking out of the bottom.

Long curved black things scare me.

Hold me.

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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #72)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:17 PM

77. Right here for ya, big guy.

me love you long time......

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Response to cliffordu (Reply #77)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:26 PM

78. Hey!

That's MY line!

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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #78)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:54 PM

79. what can I tell ya? I am an unrepentant thief.....

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Response to cliffordu (Reply #1)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:49 PM

82. Shame on you- he said that in his post!

shut up!!!!!!! And damn all your ilk to hell!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am done being terrorized by you and the rest of your bullying wingnuts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Response to cliffordu (Reply #1)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:51 PM

83. Whew--some hostility there?

I read the post & didn't see it as any kind of antagonistic flame. He/She SAID that it MIGHT not be accurate and that more details would emerge. Doesn't change the basic fact THESE types of weapons HAVE been used to inflict terrible casualties.

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Response to cliffordu (Reply #1)


Response to cliffordu (Reply #1)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:38 PM

102. Soooo...Medical examiner: Connecticut school victims were killed by multiple rifle shots

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Response to cliffordu (Reply #1)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:39 PM

103. Looks like you owe the OP an apology. eom

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Response to cliffordu (Reply #1)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:39 PM

104. The Connecticut medical examiner said a rifle was used

Victims died of multiple shots and used a rifle as the primary weapon.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/12/15/us-usa-shooting-connecticut-examiner-idUSBRE8BE0CG20121215

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Response to Hyper_Eye (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:03 PM

2. He used a handgun

 

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Response to former-republican (Reply #2)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:40 PM

105. Medical examiner: Connecticut school victims were killed by multiple rifle shots

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Response to godai (Reply #105)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:14 PM

108. Were there two rifles involved ?

 

The police had said they found the rifle in the car.

This makes no sense

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Response to former-republican (Reply #108)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:37 PM

111. They're now saying a rifle was found near shooter's body. n/t

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Response to Hyper_Eye (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:03 PM

3. Except apparently it wasn't.

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=50137104n

Mind you, you might be able to make the same argument about the 9mm semi-automatics that were actually used in the murders. But this atrocity wasn't committed with a rifle.

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Response to Lizzie Poppet (Reply #3)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:09 PM

11. If that is the case I am sorry for the confusion.

CNN does not say that the rifle was found in the car. It simply says it was a third weapon.

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Response to Hyper_Eye (Reply #11)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:15 PM

19. No problem!

It's what was being reported earlier, so no fault of yours. Sorry you got attacked by some other posters for what you posted. Not cool...

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Response to Hyper_Eye (Reply #11)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:33 PM

24. You were totally justified in your OP, as far as I'm ocncerned. You don't owe anyone an apology.

 

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Response to TPaine7 (Reply #24)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:53 PM

84. i agree (nt)

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Response to Hyper_Eye (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:04 PM

5. They said it was 2 handguns, the rifle was in the car.

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Response to Hyper_Eye (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:04 PM

6. Incorrect

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Response to Hyper_Eye (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:04 PM

7. Two handguns were used

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Response to Hyper_Eye (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:04 PM

8. Like I've said before, the underdeveloped gun nuts

can have as many fucking muskets as they want. Period.

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Response to Zoeisright (Reply #8)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:24 PM

53. What other late 1700s time frame rights do you endorse?

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Response to Hyper_Eye (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:04 PM

9. In those days the state of the art gun was a flintlock, if people want

guns to hunt let then use a flintlock or bow and arrow..

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Response to doc03 (Reply #9)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:37 PM

30. I have no problem with that if everyone has one,

a friend killed a deer with a black powder gun about a month ago and I let him hang him in the tree in the front yard to clean it. I'm in the country with woods all around me.

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Response to doc03 (Reply #9)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:45 PM

37. Yup, a bow and arrow is perfectly good for hunting

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/11/30/15574250-bow-and-arrow-type-attack-leaves-3-dead-in-casper-wyo-including-2-in-college-classroom-officials-say?lite

Updated at 7:11 p.m. ET: A man killed a woman in Casper, Wyo., on Friday and then headed to the campus of Casper College, where he killed a man in front of students during a science class before killing himself, police said.

The man used "an edged weapon" — earlier described by police, college officials and eyewitnesses as a "bow and arrow-type" weapon — in all three killings, including his own suicide, Casper Police Chief

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Response to shadowrider (Reply #37)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:56 PM

43. Then you find some obscure incident where someone used a bow and arrow.

Would he be able to murder 30 people with a bow and arrow, I think not. There was teenager in this area that shot his mother with a bow and arrow like seven times. That was about 25 years ago in the mean time we have had dozens of murders with guns. I saw an Alfred Hitchcock episode like 50 years ago where this woman killed her husband with a frozen leg of lamb then fed the murder weapon to the police. Can you kill 30 people with a leg of lamb?

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Response to doc03 (Reply #43)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:01 PM

45. ROFL!

That last line got me.

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Response to Hyper_Eye (Reply #45)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:05 PM

47. Maybe by food poisoning n/t

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Response to doc03 (Reply #43)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:44 AM

93. My ex-wife could.

She could kill ya with burger.

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Response to Hyper_Eye (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:09 PM

12. Disparate news reports

I heard one news report that indicated that the shooter had three weapons- they mentioned a Glock and a Bushmaster specifically. What is the weapon in the photo?

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Response to joesdaughter (Reply #12)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:11 PM

16. That is the Bushmaster. n/t

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Response to Hyper_Eye (Reply #16)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:20 PM

21. Except that it is not a Bushmaster.

Right type of rifle but wrong maker. Ford vs Chevy type thing.

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Response to ManiacJoe (Reply #21)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:29 PM

23. You can't expect people to differentiate...

between the 30 or so different manufacturers of AR-platform rifles, they're all "Bushmasters" and all Bushmasters are used in mass shootings.

The fact it's the best selling rifle in America and there are tens of millions of them in private hands doesn't fit the narrative.

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Response to k2qb3 (Reply #23)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:35 PM

27. Very true. But if you are going to show a picture

one should at least try to get the logo right even if the model is wrong.

It is like calling a Ford a Chevy.

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Response to ManiacJoe (Reply #21)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:36 PM

28. That was the label it had on google images.

I looked through a ton of the images and they all looked similar. Point me to a picture of the correct weapon so I can see how different it is.

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Response to Hyper_Eye (Reply #28)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:41 PM

34. There is no description of the weapon as of yet for an accurate picture.

I know the picture is wrong because the manufacturer's logo in the picture is not Bushmaster's logo.

Ford vs Chevy. Yes, they both make multiple models of pickup trucks, but...

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Response to ManiacJoe (Reply #34)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:46 PM

39. Other than the logo...

Is there any difference in the capability of the weapon or the general appearance of it? That is what I would like to understand. If the major difference is the logo then the image still provides the intended context.

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Response to Hyper_Eye (Reply #39)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:38 PM

60. From that perspective, the picture may be accurate enough.

An M4-style rifle from any manufacturer will all have the same capabilities and same general looks and same general features.

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Response to ManiacJoe (Reply #60)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 08:58 PM

120. It looks like CNN/Fortune is using the exact same image I did.

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Response to Hyper_Eye (Reply #120)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 09:40 PM

122. Does not surprise me.

I am amazed that the picture is of the correct style of rifle.

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Response to Hyper_Eye (Reply #28)


Response to Hyper_Eye (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:11 PM

15. ABC reporting something similar

"Sources said the shooter was armed with a Glock semi automatic handgun and a Sig Sauer semi automatic handgun, law enforcement sources told ABC News. Additionally, .223 caliber shell casings--a rifle caliber--were also found at the scene. He was wearing a bullet-proof vest when he opened fire in the elementary school."

http://abcnews.go.com/US/twenty-children-died-newtown-connecticut-school-shooting/story?id=17973836#.UMuxzhyldCd

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Response to Hyper_Eye (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:25 PM

22. The founding fathers envisioned private warships...

I don't think you really want to go down that rhetorical road.

The Shooter wasn't old enough to purchase the weapons used.

The handguns required a license he didn't have as he wasn't old enough.

The rifle, whether it was used in the shooting or not, is banned in that state.

The shooting occurred in a gun free zone.

It seems to me there was quite a lot of gun control in effect in this case, it's just that none of it worked.

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Response to k2qb3 (Reply #22)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:33 PM

25. Gun Control

 

> It seems to me there was quite a lot of gun control in effect in this case, it's just that none of it worked.

It works in other countries. We need a lot more, then we won't have as many massacres as the "evil socialists" in Europe have (close to zero).

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Response to bongbong (Reply #25)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:43 PM

35. My family is from Europe...

My grandfather told me what it was like when they instituted gun control in the 30's.

Seem to recall something about a massacre that occurred shortly thereafter too.

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Response to k2qb3 (Reply #35)


Response to bongbong (Reply #42)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:00 PM

49. Actually..

That's not what I said.

What I meant to imply is that you never know what tyrrany will follow losing the means to resist it, whether that's criminals or Nazis or whatever.

It's impossible to keep the tools of force out of the hands of tyrants.

History hasn't been kind to those who've permitted them a monopoly.

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Response to k2qb3 (Reply #49)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:00 PM

76. Yawn

 

You parrot NRA Talking Points very well. You should try them out on your buddies over at Redstate or some other repig website. This site is for Liberals.

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Response to k2qb3 (Reply #49)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:47 PM

115. Good luck with that talking point against tanks

Fighters and nuclear weapons.

Oh and it worked like the shits to remove Sadam in 1991. Oh wait...

This talking point is just down old...and wrong and a fantasy.

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Response to k2qb3 (Reply #22)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:33 PM

26. Correct me if I'm wrong but the age requirement would apply only to the pistols.

You have to be 21 to purchase a pistol but only 18 to purchase a rifle right? That would make the Bushmaster the one gun of the three that he could have legally purchased. Also, we don't know where the guns came from yet but he could have purchased these in a private sale over the internet or in person from a private seller right? Of course it could turn out a family member purchased these guns. Either way someone bought them and they were ultimately used to murder innocent children.

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Response to Hyper_Eye (Reply #26)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:37 PM

31. The shooter was 24 according to all reports.

But, yes, 18 to purchase a long gun, 21 to purchase a handgun.

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Response to ManiacJoe (Reply #31)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:39 PM

32. His older brother is 24. He was 20.

His brother was incorrectly reported as the shooter earlier.

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Response to Hyper_Eye (Reply #32)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:47 PM

40. Just saw the update.

Tomorrow's reports will be good for reading once they get the facts ironed out.

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Response to Hyper_Eye (Reply #26)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:40 PM

33. well

The rifle is already banned in that state.

The handguns were apparently legally owned by the shooters mother, who he murdered.

None of the weapons were legal for the perp, yet the tragedy still occurred.

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Response to k2qb3 (Reply #22)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:43 PM

36. They were his mothers guns,

the news said it was a M4 style gun, that's what the picture looks like to me.

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Response to k2qb3 (Reply #22)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:57 PM

44. Gun control does not work well state by state

As long as there are states that allow any fool to buy however many they want, there can't be effective gun control in the more sane states.

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Response to Hyper_Eye (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:37 PM

29. they absolutely did. nt

 

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Response to Hyper_Eye (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:48 PM

41. Renewing the assault weapon ban and eliminating the gun show loop holes would go a long way

The assault weapons ban limits magazines to ten rounds.

Massachusetts still has the assault ban and none of the people that I know here that own guns ever complain about not being able to have bigger magazines.

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Response to Marrah_G (Reply #41)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:27 PM

54. The original AWB was worthless

Private party sales are the norm, not a loophole.

Write a tighter ban if you want something to be effective...but I would guess it would not pass.

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #54)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:33 PM

57. It wasn't perfect, but it wasn't worthless.

I know an ex-wife who got her drug addled husband divested of his assault weapons because of the existence of the original AWB. The judge ruled that he had to give up the guns and he did.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #57)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:44 PM

62. Was that due to the FedAWB or local laws about gun ownership by domestic violence/felons/drug users?

I do not recall that the Fed AWB did that. It was primarily a ban on importation and manufacture of some firearms and accessories.

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #62)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:51 PM

64. The Federal law had a provision against ownership of assault weapons by drug addicts.

For the Family Court judge, that was sufficient.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #64)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:00 PM

67. Again, I do not think it was part of the Fed AWB

A good law most certainly, but I cannot find where it was part of the Fed AWB

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #67)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:07 PM

68. It probably fell under this section. Since she had an order of protection against him

related to domestic violence, he wasn't allowed to be in possession of an assault weapon.

(2) USE OR POSSESSION DURING CRIME OF VIOLENCE OR DRUG
TRAFFICKING CRIME- Section 924(c)(1) of such title is amended
in the first sentence by inserting `, or semiautomatic assault
weapon,' after `short-barreled shotgun,'.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #68)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:30 PM

69. Got it

While not formally part of the AWB, it referenced it. Per an FOIA request I just read, AG opinion is that section died with with the AWB.

LIke I said earlier, a good law.

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Response to Hyper_Eye (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:04 PM

46. So his mother owned this rifle

The latest reports are they were her legally registered guns

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Response to bigdarryl (Reply #46)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:28 PM

56. I am curious as to what all she owned

Its a bit unusual unless she was a shooter herself. Also not clear if that was all there was.

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Response to Hyper_Eye (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:34 PM

58. Rightwing radio is telling callers not to talk about the weapon today.

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Response to Hyper_Eye (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:35 PM

59. I believe so, they seemed fine with private ownership of capital class vessels and artillery

Methods may evolve but intent doesn't

I don't think that freedom of speech should be limited to the printing press.

I think freedom of religion extends beyond Christian sects of the time.

I think freedom of the press extends to television, radio, and the internet.

I think the logic of the argument is poor and reaching and would be utterly rejected if was attempted as a guide in other enumerated freedoms.

That said, original intent isn't the only guide post in the world either. Original intent would mean that only white, property owning males could vote. That original intent had to be overridden and done away with and that is what will be required here.

To be honest, I am against that and will oppose it, I respect the opposing reasoning and sympathize. It bothers me when these little babies are slaughtered too but that doesn't change the fundamentals of self defense or my fundamental belief in an armed populace as a check on powerful forces be they Uncle Sam, corporations with Pinkertons, gangs (especially the roided up guys in blue), and a hell of a deterrent against any hostile occupation that should permanently reduce the need for a standing army (which of course it doesn't because we are global business security and are partial to empire).

I also believe what is being prescribed is a cough drop, something to sooth a symptom rather than to get at the roots. The guns are the easy out, leaving whatever is actually fueling the violence to fester and grow untreated and ignored. The guns are not the only cultural, economic, and health difference between us and those across the pond, just the easy one and the one that can be changed while leaving the rest of the rot in place as not to disrupt anyone's profits while decreasing the power of the populace to make it safer and easier for us to be robbed, pillaged, and subjugated to those with weapons, money, and power.

I also just plain oppose removing power from the individual (especially an individual right) and preserving it for the state. I'm a civil libertarian, I seek ever to increase the power of the many rather than moving the power to the few.

All that said, disarm the police, ban private security forces above the body guard level, and restrict the authority of the military to be armed on our shores and maybe we can talk but I'll never support armed forces and a disarmed populace. Fear and uncertainty are checks on consolidated power, and armed populace creates fear and doubt for the predator class, officials, and police. Those folks need every bit of fear and doubt 99% can muster.

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Response to Hyper_Eye (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:39 PM

61. If you listen to the gunworshiping RW sycophants talk

that's the same as a smooth-bore, single-shot, muzzle-loading flintlock.

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Response to Hyper_Eye (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:53 PM

65. Uh, no

He used handguns. That rifle was found in the trunk of the car outside the school. Get your facts straight before you post. Thanks.

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Response to Trailrider1951 (Reply #65)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:46 PM

114. Yes, he did use the rifle

Multiple sources have told ABC News that Adam Lanza used a Bushmaster .223 semi-automatic rifle at close range to kill children and adults at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut on Friday.

Two handguns were also found at the scene, and a fourth weapon was found nearby. The weapons discovered at the school apparently belonged to a family member, possibly his mother, according to authorities.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014338034

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Response to Hyper_Eye (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:32 PM

70. As I assume 100 people here have pointed out, that gun was not used today

So I'll be 101

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Response to Hyper_Eye (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:36 PM

73. While in a waiting room the CNN speaker called it a "BUSHWHACKER 223". I had to laugh.

ahem:

"The gunman had several firearms, including a bushwhacker 223...."

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Response to Hyper_Eye (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:36 PM

74. Yes, It's my RIGHT to feel safe and our politicians duty to pass legislation that helps protect us!

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Response to Hyper_Eye (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:46 AM

88. Interesting historical note.. Girandoni Windbüchse

.. an air driven rifle with 20 round detachable magazine of large caliber rounds fired at about the same velocity as a modern .45ACP. Lewis and Clark carried one on their expedition in 1804. So in answer to your first question, I think it entirely possible that such a gun would have been foreseen.

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Response to X_Digger (Reply #88)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:52 AM

95. Do you know if they tried this gun on the brown bears????

I read a dispatch mentioning the fact that everyone was getting tired of having to reload multiple times to shoot Grizzlies.

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Response to cliffordu (Reply #95)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:57 AM

99. I don't know, but I wouldn't try to shoot a grizzly with a modern 45ACP, either.

Since that's the analogous modern round, I'd imagine you'd have the same luck shooting a grizzly with one (and ball ammo, since all the Girandoni rounds were .46 caliber balls.)

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Response to Hyper_Eye (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:30 PM

100. Big surprise, CNN was wrong. Medical Examiner: "All of the children were killed by rifle shots."

This was a pretty good thread, Hyper_Eye.
You were initially right.

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Response to Major Hogwash (Reply #100)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:16 PM

109. I wonder if people that called me a liar will come back to apologize.

I seriously doubt it.

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Response to Hyper_Eye (Reply #109)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:52 PM

117. That would indeed be a rare post around here.

-p

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Response to Hyper_Eye (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:50 PM

107. As much as you hope

 

As much as you hope that was the weapon, I believe he left it in the car, but really, it is irrelevant. What is relevant is what are we going to do to force treatment onto the mentally ill in this country?

Everyone of these school and theater mass shootings has been perpetrated by somebody who everyone around them knew they was mentally ill. IMHO the fault lies in our society who allows for people like this to go untreated, the causes for the increase in mental illness, and his deceased mother for having firearms that were not secured from his reach. To call for the banning of guns is a cheap and ineffective solution to the problem, which also denies the law abiding protection from crime and violence.

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Response to Barkoff (Reply #107)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:23 PM

110. Medical Examiner said the "rifle" was used....

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Response to Barkoff (Reply #107)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:45 PM

113. Not according to the coroner this afternoon

They recovered .223 rounds from the victims.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #113)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:50 PM

116. Poster PPRd by Skinner

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Response to pinboy3niner (Reply #116)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:54 PM

118. Short and sweet

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Response to Hyper_Eye (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:43 PM

112. Yes, but here is the tricky part

You own an infantry weapon, you are part of the militia and you go...once a month, to drill.

The Heller decision eviscerated that, but carefully read the second. "Well regulated" is not the dependent cause of the "rights of the people shall not be infringed."

What they envisioned was universal conscription of gun owners who had state of the art infantry weapons. They essentially envisioned Switzerland.

And I don't care what Scalia wrote in Heller, the contemporary writings of the time tells me this.

Also there was a whole slew of people who could not own guns at the time. Nor were they as prevalent.

I can tell you this, the modern day arguments would be all but recognizable to the founders.

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Response to Hyper_Eye (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 09:21 PM

121. Bushmaster..

... for anyone who cares this is not a "Bushmaster", which is a manufacturer, but an AR-15.

AR-15s are made by many manufacturers and they are not generally identified by the manufacturer but by the model, i.e. AR-15.

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