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Fri Dec 14, 2012, 05:52 PM

The Wake of Tragedies

is usually a bad time to create new laws.

See: The Patriot Act.

I think a lot of things need to happen in regard to gun control in the US. Better education. Better regulation and enforcement of existing laws. A real national conversation about how to de-glorify guns. Better access to mental health. Better understanding of what triggers these shootings.

That being said, charging ahead with new laws in the face of tragedy often curtails rights and that's almost always a bad thing.

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Arrow 21 replies Author Time Post
Reply The Wake of Tragedies (Original post)
NeedleCast Dec 2012 OP
Tommy_Carcetti Dec 2012 #1
Egalitarian Thug Dec 2012 #10
SocratesInSpirit Dec 2012 #2
NeedleCast Dec 2012 #7
SocratesInSpirit Dec 2012 #14
GeorgeGist Dec 2012 #3
Warren DeMontague Dec 2012 #4
Zoeisright Dec 2012 #5
Egalitarian Thug Dec 2012 #6
Warren DeMontague Dec 2012 #8
Egalitarian Thug Dec 2012 #15
Warren DeMontague Dec 2012 #16
Egalitarian Thug Dec 2012 #17
Warren DeMontague Dec 2012 #18
Egalitarian Thug Dec 2012 #19
Warren DeMontague Dec 2012 #20
Egalitarian Thug Dec 2012 #21
alcibiades_mystery Dec 2012 #9
NeedleCast Dec 2012 #11
alcibiades_mystery Dec 2012 #12
MrYikes Dec 2012 #13

Response to NeedleCast (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 05:54 PM

1. I don't see it as curtaling rights.

I see it as bringing rights in line with what they should rationally be.

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Response to Tommy_Carcetti (Reply #1)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:08 PM

10. Maybe, but what will the consequences be? We still haven't and may never recover from

 

the 1994 elections. The AWB itself was irrelevant, but the whole Gingrich Congress came in on its passage.

I was there when California rushed through its three strikes law after that little girl was kidnapped and murdered. The law was/is a disaster and there are people serving life sentences with no parole for committing ridiculously petty crimes as a result. It didn't matter that to people at the time that the crime itself was so rare that similar horrors occurred less than once a decade, but everyone in the state is still paying for it.

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Response to NeedleCast (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 05:55 PM

2. Normally, I would agree

The spate of proposed laws after the Casey Anthony verdict were poorly thought out and had frightening implications that would have caused all kinds of unintended consequences that could potentially make criminals of innocent parents. But there have been so many gun massacres in this country that we are long overdue for some kind of gun-control legislation. :/ I live in Connecticut, and I am hoping that there will be laws passed after this.

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Response to SocratesInSpirit (Reply #2)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 05:59 PM

7. What kind of laws?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against passing of reasonable new laws but reasonable new laws is generally not the sort of law you get in the wake of tragedy.

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Response to NeedleCast (Reply #7)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:24 PM

14. That is true

Because people are reacting with emotion and not thinking them through. We do need some type of stricter gun-control laws (banning semi-automatic weapons seems to be a good start), but we also need to examine the cultural reasons these kinds of massacres are becoming so common in the first place. I don't have any answers, but this issue needs to be talked about and we as a country have got to stop kowtowing to the NRA and letting their agenda dominate the conversation.

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Response to NeedleCast (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 05:55 PM

3. Phuck it ...

Just to get the ball rolling.

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Response to NeedleCast (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 05:55 PM

4. Right, anything except actually controlling the ridiculous ease with which any kook can get weapons.

Certainly, we wouldn't want to be hasty.. Sort of how the petroleum industry feels with regards to global warming.

Oooooh, Whats the rush? "jury's still out"

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Response to NeedleCast (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 05:55 PM

5. Completely, absolutely, totally

fucking wrong.

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Response to NeedleCast (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 05:58 PM

6. We so often do this and it never seems to register that legislating all

 

of society based on the most extreme events always yields unconsidered, bad results.

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #6)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:01 PM

8. Except, its been a stream of "extreme events", hasn't it, for years now.

If you want to talk about "in the wake of a horrific shooting", pretty much the wake of one ends and then another one happens.

So I guess it's always a "bad time" to talk about gun regulation.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #8)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:14 PM

15. Please see #10

 

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #15)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:26 AM

16. 3 strikes was a shitty law. And there was political fallout from the AWB.

However, that does not mean all laws are shitty, or will have political fallout.

I think there is emerging consensus that something needs to be done.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #16)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:00 AM

17. I didn't say all laws are shitty, but every law passed in the heat of outrage in response to

 

a great tragedy has proved to be shitty and fraught with terrible consequences.


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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #17)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:29 PM

18. Then how about if we say any laws passed now are in response to Aurora. Gabby Gifford. Or Columbine.

My point is, we're fairly constantly in the "wake of" one of these things. By the time the heat of outrage from one ends, the next one happens. Enough is enough.

And no, every law passed in the heat of outrage has proven to be shitty. There were laws passed in response to the COINTELPRO revelations in the 70s which served us quite well, for instance.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #18)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 07:22 PM

19. There was no emotional outrage over those revelations, most people weren't even aware

 

of what had been done, most people today will still give you a blank stare of incomprehension if you mention it, so I don't see the comparison you're trying to make.

In any case what laws are you referring to?

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #19)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 07:26 PM

20. Know what? I dont care. There is a school full of 20 dead 6 year olds.

If stopping that means we have to take away every stupid fucking gun in this country, i am on board. Emotional? Fuck yes. Its time.

ENOUGH.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #20)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 07:28 PM

21. Exactly. n/t

 

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Response to NeedleCast (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:08 PM

9. But during an ongoing crisis IS the time to legislate changes that stem the crisis

This is a crisis. Not isolated tragedies as you'd like to portray them, but a linked, connected, clearly caused and ongoing crisis. So when is the time?

Rights? They said the same thing during the early days of AIDS: can't close the bath houses! Civil liberties! And, meanwhile, thousands were infected in the bath houses, the band played on. It was a crisis. We act to change course in time of crisis, if we are responsible people. Oh, they said in 1981, in 1982: we don't know for sure, we shouldn't rush to judgment, and blah blah blah. But it wasn't an isolated tragedy, but an ongoing crisis.

Another one of these Gun Crisis mass shootings happened on goddamn TUESDAY for fuck's sake. There will be no respite.

"In the wake of tragedies" might not be a good time to make new laws - in some cases. But we're not dealing with isolated tragedies, but with an ongoing crisis, and during an ongoing crisis is precisely the motherfucking time to make new laws to end the crisis. precisely the time.

Enough bullshit.

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Response to alcibiades_mystery (Reply #9)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:13 PM

11. That May Be True

But it seems throughout history - even recent history - that bad laws get passed at times like this. Laws that are either "feel good" (don't really address the issue, like the former Assault Weapons Ban) or curtail rights (The Patriot Act). Is it possible to have a reasonable discussion on an issue like this? I mean, look no further than DU to see that we've got members supporting drone attacks on gun owners who refuse to give up their weapons.

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Response to NeedleCast (Reply #11)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:19 PM

12. I'm willing to experiment with that

It's better than the status quo.

Like I said, there were a lot of people shouting about the civil liberties of the bath houses during the beginning of the AIDS epidemic. The authorities were right to ultimately shut them down, though they did so three years too late. oddly, few people protested at that point. You see a history of bad laws. I see a history of good measures to address an ongoing crisis with a distinct cause: the completely irrational and bizarre attachment of some Americans to a free-for-all gun culture that actually fucking kills a lot of people. They are like those who insisted on the most dangerous sex in the bath houses even after they knew it was deadly: utterly irresponsible, and the polis, the state has to act for them because they are not responsible enough to change on their own.

We have a Gun Crisis, a gun death epidemic, and we must act, the quibbles of various irresponsible and irrational gun groups be damned. Nobody today thinks the cities were wrong to shut down the bath houses. Similarly, in 20 years, nobody will think the government was wrong for addressing our current Gun Crisis.

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Response to NeedleCast (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:21 PM

13. okay then

A person shall be quickly put to death if convicted of a crime while in possession of a firearm.

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