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Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:11 PM

To the 2nd amendment extremists - you have the blood of children on your hands

Fucking enough - to defend unlimited gun rights today reveals you as the bottom dwellers that you are. You are part of the problem. You are the enablers.

Your absolutism kills. Your patron the NRA is an accomplice to these shootings.

Your unyielding opposition sounds like a cheer as the bodies are being dragged out of the school. They are merely sacrifices to your second amendment god. Collateral damage so you can stroke and coo at your precious gun.

Mods - there are many angry people today with just cause. I humbly suggest that you declare a moratorium on gun rights extremists today and ban those who only join DU to antagonize us during this period of heightened emotion.

193 replies, 11797 views

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Reply To the 2nd amendment extremists - you have the blood of children on your hands (Original post)
Politicub Dec 2012 OP
cbdo2007 Dec 2012 #1
Politicub Dec 2012 #4
dsc Dec 2012 #11
Hayabusa Dec 2012 #13
PM Martin Dec 2012 #2
sanatanadharma Dec 2012 #3
Politicub Dec 2012 #8
byeya Dec 2012 #86
hack89 Dec 2012 #85
Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2012 #149
hack89 Dec 2012 #150
SummerSnow Dec 2012 #169
hack89 Dec 2012 #182
PavePusher Dec 2012 #104
tiny elvis Dec 2012 #158
cbayer Dec 2012 #5
Jonny Dec 2012 #52
Eleanors38 Dec 2012 #177
Loudly Dec 2012 #6
godai Dec 2012 #7
Marengo Dec 2012 #9
Politicub Dec 2012 #10
Marengo Dec 2012 #12
Politicub Dec 2012 #16
Marengo Dec 2012 #20
Politicub Dec 2012 #26
scheming daemons Dec 2012 #32
AtheistCrusader Dec 2012 #45
Tsiyu Dec 2012 #100
AtheistCrusader Dec 2012 #102
Tsiyu Dec 2012 #103
AtheistCrusader Dec 2012 #105
Tsiyu Dec 2012 #109
AtheistCrusader Dec 2012 #110
Marengo Dec 2012 #118
bettyellen Dec 2012 #126
Marengo Dec 2012 #128
bettyellen Dec 2012 #147
Marengo Dec 2012 #154
morningfog Dec 2012 #136
Marengo Dec 2012 #141
morningfog Dec 2012 #144
Marengo Dec 2012 #159
Marengo Dec 2012 #108
bettyellen Dec 2012 #127
Marengo Dec 2012 #130
Eleanors38 Dec 2012 #178
neverforget Dec 2012 #33
Marengo Dec 2012 #111
neverforget Dec 2012 #125
Marengo Dec 2012 #131
paleotn Dec 2012 #90
Marengo Dec 2012 #115
Taverner Dec 2012 #113
neverforget Dec 2012 #133
Marengo Dec 2012 #142
neverforget Dec 2012 #143
Marengo Dec 2012 #156
neverforget Dec 2012 #160
Marengo Dec 2012 #170
neverforget Dec 2012 #174
Marengo Dec 2012 #183
Jonny Dec 2012 #55
Zoeisright Dec 2012 #71
Marengo Dec 2012 #124
LanternWaste Dec 2012 #37
Marengo Dec 2012 #119
DisgustipatedinCA Dec 2012 #54
Jonny Dec 2012 #56
Marengo Dec 2012 #114
smirkymonkey Dec 2012 #120
Marengo Dec 2012 #121
ZombieHorde Dec 2012 #14
Politicub Dec 2012 #18
Marengo Dec 2012 #21
Politicub Dec 2012 #22
Marengo Dec 2012 #25
LondonReign2 Dec 2012 #75
Marengo Dec 2012 #112
Zoeisright Dec 2012 #72
Marengo Dec 2012 #116
morningfog Dec 2012 #138
Marengo Dec 2012 #140
ZombieHorde Dec 2012 #27
AtheistCrusader Dec 2012 #46
Recursion Dec 2012 #15
Politicub Dec 2012 #17
Recursion Dec 2012 #19
Politicub Dec 2012 #23
Recursion Dec 2012 #24
Politicub Dec 2012 #28
Recursion Dec 2012 #31
Politicub Dec 2012 #36
snooper2 Dec 2012 #50
Eleanors38 Dec 2012 #181
Politicub Dec 2012 #184
Eleanors38 Dec 2012 #188
Eleanors38 Dec 2012 #189
Eleanors38 Dec 2012 #190
Politicub Dec 2012 #191
Eleanors38 Dec 2012 #192
Politicub Dec 2012 #193
Fresh_Start Dec 2012 #29
Recursion Dec 2012 #30
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AlexSatan Dec 2012 #93
Fresh_Start Dec 2012 #95
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Blaukraut Dec 2012 #35
Recursion Dec 2012 #38
AlexSatan Dec 2012 #94
Politicub Dec 2012 #39
AtheistCrusader Dec 2012 #47
Jamastiene Dec 2012 #122
JimDandy Dec 2012 #152
Politicub Dec 2012 #155
JimDandy Dec 2012 #161
DevonRex Dec 2012 #40
Recursion Dec 2012 #41
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Politicub Dec 2012 #60
xtraxritical Dec 2012 #66
underoath Dec 2012 #34
kurtzapril4 Dec 2012 #51
PoliticalBiker Dec 2012 #42
tapermaker Dec 2012 #44
Atypical Liberal Dec 2012 #49
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Atypical Liberal Dec 2012 #172
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Saboburns Dec 2012 #48
loyalkydem Dec 2012 #53
Raffi Ella Dec 2012 #57
Politicub Dec 2012 #59
red dog 1 Dec 2012 #97
EvilAL Dec 2012 #89
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TheKentuckian Dec 2012 #157
adieu Dec 2012 #58
Azathoth Dec 2012 #61
Politicub Dec 2012 #63
apocalypsehow Dec 2012 #64
Berserker Dec 2012 #73
LanternWaste Dec 2012 #74
apocalypsehow Dec 2012 #62
mainstreetonce Dec 2012 #69
NeedleCast Dec 2012 #67
davidn3600 Dec 2012 #76
Politicub Dec 2012 #80
davidn3600 Dec 2012 #87
thucythucy Dec 2012 #148
Politicub Dec 2012 #79
NeedleCast Dec 2012 #92
Moostache Dec 2012 #68
Politicub Dec 2012 #77
mythology Dec 2012 #117
Zoeisright Dec 2012 #70
TimKeller Dec 2012 #78
Politicub Dec 2012 #81
Hells Liberal Dec 2012 #82
Politicub Dec 2012 #84
Care Acutely Dec 2012 #83
Ter Dec 2012 #91
Bucky Dec 2012 #96
AlexSatan Dec 2012 #98
aandegoons Dec 2012 #101
Marengo Dec 2012 #123
trouble.smith Dec 2012 #106
bettyellen Dec 2012 #129
trouble.smith Dec 2012 #134
eppur_se_muova Dec 2012 #107
fadedrose Dec 2012 #132
alarimer Dec 2012 #135
kevinbgoode1 Dec 2012 #139
letemrot Dec 2012 #145
trouble.smith Dec 2012 #153
Budgies Revenge Dec 2012 #162
stevenleser Dec 2012 #163
Budgies Revenge Dec 2012 #164
stevenleser Dec 2012 #165
Budgies Revenge Dec 2012 #166
Kei7777 Dec 2012 #168
stevenleser Dec 2012 #171
Politicub Dec 2012 #187
SummerSnow Dec 2012 #167
Hepburn Dec 2012 #173
workinclasszero Dec 2012 #175
Hoyt Dec 2012 #176
workinclasszero Dec 2012 #180
Politicub Dec 2012 #186
Odin2005 Dec 2012 #179
Politicub Dec 2012 #185

Response to Politicub (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:12 PM

1. We say this after every shooting - but hopefully now "Enough is Enough"

and somebody will have the courage to take some serious action on this issue.

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Response to cbdo2007 (Reply #1)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:15 PM

4. This shooting is different and will tug at the heartstring of parents and those

with a moral conscience. Or at least this is my hope.

And the gun nuts feel it, too. Their defense has reached a fever pitch because they know this may very well be the tipping point.

And they have no one to blame but themselves since they oppose any kind of reasonable gun regulations. I hope they reap the whirlwind.

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Response to Politicub (Reply #4)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:36 PM

11. I thought that about Columbine

I was wrong.

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Response to dsc (Reply #11)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:40 PM

13. Columbine was teenager on teenager violence, this...

is much worse.

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Response to Politicub (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:13 PM

2. True.

If they could, the NRA and their paranoid white supremacist redneck trash mebers would allow missiles in the hands of the civilian populace.

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Response to Politicub (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:13 PM

3. Those NRA members who are responsible gun owners...

...need to quit the organization with a clear statement that they DO accept the words of the 2nd amendment, "well regulated".

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Response to sanatanadharma (Reply #3)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:19 PM

8. And there are some responsible gun owners. But they're just as guilty if they

support extremism.

If they give a dime to the NRA, they don't get a pass just because they click on the safety or put their gun in a safe. They're just as culpable as the extremists.

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Response to Politicub (Reply #8)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 04:13 PM

86. You're 100% correct: All NRA supporters are guilty and they are aligning themselves with

 

the Filthy Five on the Supreme Court who refuse to acknowledge the "well regulated militia" phrase which is the heart of the 2nd Amendment.

The arms makers and importers should not escape condemnation either.

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Response to sanatanadharma (Reply #3)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 04:12 PM

85. Very few gun owners are NRA members

about 4 million out of 56 million.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #85)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:15 PM

149. True, but the NRA is a LOBBY, and not for "the people"...

It's the lobby of the gun industry, and it promotes and finances pro-gun regulations.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #149)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:04 PM

150. Have you ever wondered why there is no gun control group

with that kind of membership, money and political clout?

That is what it will take to counter the NRA.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #85)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:37 AM

169. Wonder which politicians are NRA members..time for google

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Response to SummerSnow (Reply #169)


Response to sanatanadharma (Reply #3)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:16 PM

104. I accept those words just fine, but they are not a limiting condition on anything but the militia...

 

and only when it is called up.

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #104)


Response to Politicub (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:17 PM

5. ENOUGH!!!! There are no words.

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Response to cbayer (Reply #5)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 03:29 PM

52. Not Enough

 

There is responsibility for this.
It lies with gun extremists.
Change must happen.

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Response to Jonny (Reply #52)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:38 AM

177. Since you have found your enemy, start a witch hunt.

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Response to Politicub (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:18 PM

6. It's my observation that the gun lovers hide under rocks on a day like today.

 

The zero count posters that I have seen all express distress and outrage at the gun problem or sickness of the nation.

Maybe it's sock puppet hand wringing, who can say.

But when recognizable gunners re-emerge they usually start by chiding anti's for savoring the shock value of the story as serving our authoritarian agenda.

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Response to Politicub (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:18 PM

7. TIPPING POINT! n/t

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Response to Politicub (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:31 PM

9. What makes one an "extremist"? N/T

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Response to Marengo (Reply #9)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:31 PM

10. If you need to ask that question today, then you are one.

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Response to Politicub (Reply #10)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:37 PM

12. Nonsensical response. I'll ask again, what makes one "extremist"? N/T

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Response to Marengo (Reply #12)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:44 PM

16. I would say contributing to the NRA, taking an absolutist position on gun rights,

Posting that someone was stabbed at a school in china and making the nonsensical claim that it's the same, using straw men and idiot examples to change the subject, acting like you're "curious" and can't understand what the fuss is about, saying guns don't kill people.

Things like that. Does that help you better understand poor confused Marengo?

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Response to Politicub (Reply #16)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:56 PM

20. It is you who are apparently confused....

"Posting that someone was stabbed at a school in china and making the nonsensical claim that it's the same"

If all law-abiding gun owners are expected to bear personal and moral resposibility for the illegal use of a weapon by an insane person, then the standard may most certainly apply to anyone possessing a knife.

I would be most interested to know your edged weapon control position.

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Response to Marengo (Reply #20)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 02:05 PM

26. Ok. We're all wrong and you are the bringer of truth

The gun messiah hath come to enlighten us.

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Response to Marengo (Reply #20)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 02:21 PM

32. You never read about 18 kids being "knifed" down by a killer


A knife pretty much limits the death toll to 1 or 2.


A gun makes the death toll potentially dozens or more.


Not even close to being equal situations. You can outrun a knife-wielding lunatic... you can't outrun a gun-wielding one.

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Response to scheming daemons (Reply #32)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 03:13 PM

45. Except, that you do.

Shit, 22 yesterday in China. 22 people in a school.

And that's been happening for years. Usually 6-10 people, usually in a school. It's china's equivalent of US school shootings. (They don't have ready access to firearms)

I agree, at least with the premise, a firearm is more efficient. But to say 'you never read about', is missing some very recent, very disturbing headlines.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #45)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 05:46 PM

100. I heard that was the number of injured, not killed

Do you have a link?

On edit: 22 were INJURED, including one teacher.

Try again

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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #100)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:07 PM

102. Injured THIS TIME.

8 dead. http://news.sky.com/story/778981/eight-killed-in-china-stabbing-rampage
28 wounded. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/30/world/asia/30china.html?_r=0
8 dead, five injured http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2012-08/02/c_131756787.htm (Previous link to 8 dead was a year and a half old)
1 dead, five injured http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2012-04/27/c_131556735.htm
7 injured http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2012-01/20/c_131371126.htm

There's lots more. Another that started out as a guy running his car up on the sidewalk into a crowd, and then jumped out and started stabbing people... It's bad. It's hard to catalog them all, there are so many and the search terms start running over each other.


Now, there are other countries with similar gun control laws to China, like the UK. Here's 7 dead there, BUT, this is highly unusual for them. Suggesting a cultural difference that the US and China could possibly learn from.
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/world/2011-08/15/c_131048781.htm


I totally agree that guns are more likely to produce a lethal wound, and can more easily injure more people at once. There is a reason we advanced, as a species, militarily, from edged and puncturing weapons, to firearms. I am simply cautioning that for one, these incidents are not unique to people with guns, nor are they unique to the united states.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #102)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:12 PM

103. I don't care how you parse it

You can kill a lot of people very rapidly with a rifle or semi pistol.

NOT with a knife.

You know it; I know it.

I am a gun owner, but not a delicate flower.

I'd probably jump a fool with a knife, as little as I am, to protect others. There's probably no way I'd be able jump a guy with an assault rifle. I'd just be one more dead.





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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #103)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:23 PM

105. And yet, I was able to find at least 3 instances of it in under a minute.

IN CHINA. I say In China specifically because yes, in the US firearms are far more readily available. No argument there. And firearms expose, even with a relatively unskilled user, more people in the general vicinity of the attack, to injury. It is easier to use a gun. A gun is a force multiplier. Anyone who says different isn't being honest.

But the comment I addressed was "A knife pretty much limits the death toll to 1 or 2." by a different poster.
It doesn't. It DOES appear to limit the death toll somewhat, but not as much as that poster is assuming.

Otherwise, you and I agree. Guns are a force multiplier, and are a greater risk.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #105)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:36 PM

109. Well pat yourself on the back, then

Goody for you.

I'm too sickened by it all to care how you amuse yourself...



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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #109)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:39 PM

110. Thanks.

That was completely uncalled for.

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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #103)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:04 PM

118. Eight isn't a lot?

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390443687504577564512826406388.html

Five isn't a lot?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/2229445/Five-police-officers-killed-in-knife-attack-in-China.html

I know many people can be killed quickly with a semi-auto firearm, and I'm not suggesting otherwise.

However, edged tools can also be effective enough to kill multiple persons in a relatively short period of time. So, why no discussion of the culpability of ALL knife owners?

I've always been curious about this.

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Response to Marengo (Reply #118)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:42 PM

126. those same people could have quadrupled their death counts had they used guns

it;s pretty simple, actually.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #126)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:46 PM

128. IMO, a "could have" argument is irrelevant in the collective culpubilty debate.

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Response to Marengo (Reply #128)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:07 PM

147. it merely blows your completely false equivelency of knives = guns out of the water.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #147)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:18 AM

154. No, it doesn't...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-19091840

Is 8 not enough to qualify as a massacre?

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Response to Marengo (Reply #118)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:57 PM

136. COngrats! You just revealed yourself as an extermist!

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Response to morningfog (Reply #136)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:08 PM

141. And your definition of extremist is...?

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Response to Marengo (Reply #141)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:15 PM

144. Like porn, you know it when you see it.

It is is obvious with you.

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Response to morningfog (Reply #144)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:53 AM

159. Unintentionally I'm certain, but comical on your part

As the definition of porn is highly subjective, therefore so is the definition of "extremist"

As I do not know your mind and what you "see", how about explaining it?

Why is it so difficult to answer a simple question?

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Response to scheming daemons (Reply #32)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:34 PM

108. The death toll isn't the point...

As has been proven, edged weapons are used with some frequency to harm multiple numbers of people in a single attack.

The point is what collective moral responsibility do knife owners have to limit the harm created by a similar tool in the hands of the deranged or criminally inclined.

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Response to Marengo (Reply #108)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:43 PM

127. you are making a joke of the issue by suggesting "knife control" . REVOLTING

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #127)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:49 PM

130. Collective culpability is a joke?

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #127)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:46 AM

178. Scotland is pushing for such, and Boston is considering as well.

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Response to Marengo (Reply #20)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 02:22 PM

33. You can outrun a guy with a knife but you can't outrun a bullet genius

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Response to neverforget (Reply #33)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:40 PM

111. Really? Everyone? In all cases?...

"can outrun a guy with a knife"?

How many cites would you like proving the opposite?

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Response to Marengo (Reply #111)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:36 PM

125. Prove outrunning a bullet

Cite that!

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Response to neverforget (Reply #125)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:52 PM

131. Well, we certainly can't apply the label of genius to you...

I never made such an absurb claim.

You, however...

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Response to Marengo (Reply #20)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 05:10 PM

90. If said law-abiding gun owners....

....contribute their hard earned money to an organization who's chief goal is to increase gun manufacturer revenues, consequences be damned, then yes, they do bear personal responsibility. Extremists are the ones who use ridiculous fallacies such as the tired, old "edged weapons" analogy. A knife can be used as a tool, never meant for defense or offense. Last I checked, it was tough to cut materials efficiently with a Glock 9mm.

As for the organized, gun extremists, back in my old home state of TN, recently the NRA strongly backed the following legislation...

Guns in bars....even against a proprietors wishes.

"Guns in the trunk"....That's right, employees can now take their guns to work with them, as long as said weapons are left in the car. How could that ever go wrong?

...but it gets worse. Guns in other formerly "gun free" zones such state and local schools and parks. Which makes even less sense, given current events.

In the recent election, the NRA helped "primary" Republican TN legislators who didn't go along in lock step with these absolutely nutty ideas.

As a responsible gun owner, I don't need a 20 round clip. If you think you do, you probably need to work on your accuracy instead. I don't need 1,000 rounds of ammo at any one time. I don't "carry and conceal" because one Saturday of training and a permit from the local Sheriff's dept. DOES NOT qualify me to make split second, life or death decisions. That takes months and years of training and retraining for law enforcement and military personnel. I don't need to buy 5 or 6 handguns at one time. All of those things and more are blasphemous to NRA zealots and as I've said before, I'm sick and damn tired of them given people like myself a bad name. Hopefully the time has come to gut that despicable organization once and for all!

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Response to paleotn (Reply #90)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:49 PM

115. Edged tools are never used for defense or offense?

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Response to Marengo (Reply #20)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:44 PM

113. We need to drown the NRA in a bathtub

 

They are nothing more than a SUPERPAC for Serial Killers

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Response to Marengo (Reply #20)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:55 PM

133. So you agree that you can't outrun a bullet but you can outrun a guy with a knife?

Good we agree on something!

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Response to neverforget (Reply #133)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:10 PM

142. Who is the "you" in your statement?

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Response to Marengo (Reply #142)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:12 PM

143. That would be you

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Response to neverforget (Reply #143)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:26 AM

156. Yes, a genius you aren't...

You have assumed much, knowing nothing of me.

"You can outrun a guy with a knife"

Are you certain of this? Do you know my medical history?

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Response to Marengo (Reply #156)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:58 AM

160. Hmmmm lets see. A guy with a gun is shooting at you vs a guy with a knife. In order

for the guy with the knife to kill you, he has to get up close and personal whereas a guy with a gun can shoot you from a distance. Sorry I had to explain that to you.

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Response to neverforget (Reply #160)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:30 AM

170. No, you are sorry you have assumed...

That I am capable of running any distance at all. I am partially disabled my friend.

Now, care to explain why the vicitms of this crime were not so easily able to outrun a teenager with a knife as you apparantly claim EVERYONE can?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-19091840

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Response to Marengo (Reply #170)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:30 AM

174. I'm sorry to hear that and for your disability.

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Response to neverforget (Reply #174)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:52 PM

183. Thank you...

For this and other reasons (openly bi-sexual as a teenager in a time and place such a thing was unacceptable) I tend to be very sensitive on the topic of empowerment. For me, the right to possess a firearm is a significant expression, if I use the word properly, of my own personal empowerment. I have reasons to do so, and I believe they are perfectly justified given my personal experience. I am not insane, nor do I appreciate the suggestion that I "have blood on my hands" for simple act of owning a firearm for protection.

I notice you didn't say such a thing, so none of this is directed towards you. I simply took offensive at your statement.

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Response to Marengo (Reply #12)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 03:30 PM

55. This makes an extremist

 


An extremist is somebody, who in the face of a disaster like this, is confused about what makes somebody a gun extremist.

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Response to Marengo (Reply #12)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 03:51 PM

71. Denying reality.

Like all gun nuts do.

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Response to Zoeisright (Reply #71)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:35 PM

124. Please do explain how asking the OP to clarify the term "extremist"...

is "Denying reality. Like all gun nuts do."

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Response to Marengo (Reply #9)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 02:26 PM

37. Any implication, regardless of how straightforward or how disingenuous

"What makes one an "extremist""

Any type of implication, regardless of how straightforward or how disingenuous, that the violent deaths of close to 30 school children in one day, in one location, by one person are an unavoidable price we pay for the 2nd Amendment.

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #37)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:07 PM

119. Asking the OP to clarify a broad and subjective term is "disingenuous"?

And do please cite where I stated such a thing is "unavoidable"

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Response to Marengo (Reply #9)


Response to DisgustipatedinCA (Reply #54)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 03:32 PM

56. Second This

 

I second this statement.
If this doesn't make you think there is some problem with guns, you are a gun extremist.
And not a very nice person!!

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Response to Jonny (Reply #56)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:47 PM

114. Where have I stated there wasn't a problem?

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Response to DisgustipatedinCA (Reply #54)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:13 PM

120. +10,000

How anyone can come out in defense of guns on a day like this is just beyond me. It's sickening.

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Response to smirkymonkey (Reply #120)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:26 PM

121. Where is there a "defense of guns" in my postings in this thread?

Asking the OP to clarify a broad and subjective term such as "extremist" is defending guns?

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Response to Politicub (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:42 PM

14. I have never seen anyone, including the NRA, defend unlimited gun rights.

The abolitionism you see is imaginary.

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Response to ZombieHorde (Reply #14)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:48 PM

18. Give it a rest. No one is persuaded by the NRA talking points

If you think covering for murdered children is some kind of illusion, then I can't help you.

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Response to Politicub (Reply #18)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:56 PM

21. Who is "covering for murdered children"?

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Response to Marengo (Reply #21)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 02:00 PM

22. Look in the mirror.

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Response to Politicub (Reply #22)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 02:05 PM

25. Explain please...

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Response to Marengo (Reply #25)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 04:00 PM

75. Explantion

A mirror is an object that allows the user to view himself or herself. Thus, you could use one to view the asshole that is spewing NRA talking points at this exceptionally inappropriate time.

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Response to LondonReign2 (Reply #75)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:42 PM

112. Perhaps you can clarify what "NRA talking points" I have been "spewing"

I would be most interested to know, not being aware of such myself.

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Response to Marengo (Reply #21)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 03:52 PM

72. You are.

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Response to Zoeisright (Reply #72)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:49 PM

116. How?

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Response to Marengo (Reply #21)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:58 PM

138. How long have you had that avatar? Consider removing it.

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Response to morningfog (Reply #138)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:08 PM

140. For longer than I can remember, and I'll continue to use it...

as long as it is provided by the admins. If/when they remove it as an option, I will choose another.

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Response to Politicub (Reply #18)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 02:06 PM

27. I am pointing out dishonest rhetoric.

Dishonest rhetoric won't change gun policy here in the US.

I don't own guns, I don't even like guns, but I think we should be honest when we discuss issues that are important to us.

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Response to Politicub (Reply #18)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 03:15 PM

46. Humbly suggest you take a breath.

Take a moment.

You are lashing out at people who don't deserve what you are slinging.

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Response to Politicub (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:44 PM

15. I'm listening. Come up with a law that would actually make guns hard to acquire

I'm all ears. I'd probably support it.

But it has to actually make them difficult to acquire. Not "difficult to acquire legally". "Difficult to acquire".

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Response to Recursion (Reply #15)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:47 PM

17. Tactic no. 18 in the NRA playbook - act like you're asking a question and then attack the answer.

You are part of the problem. There are no perfect laws, and you will find fault with whatever anyone suggests. Everyone sees through the bullshit today.

If you give a damn, why don't you educate yourself and suggest some. We'll be waiting.

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Response to Politicub (Reply #17)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:52 PM

19. Nope.

I made my point very clearly and didn't attack you or anyone else.

I think laws outlawing guns would be as unsuccessful at actually getting rid of them as laws outlawing alcohol were and laws outlawing drugs are. You don't have to agree with that. But I didn't attack you at all. And if you're actually interested in engaging me here, you can tell me what kind of law you have in mind that makes guns actually difficult to acquire.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #19)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 02:03 PM

23. I don't know. I could guess, but I'm not a legislator. All I know is I would support

Laws that slow down the gun madness. Even if the laws make a small dent, it's worth it.

I honestly don't know what there is to engage about in relation to laws on this thread. There are others better suited to policy discussions.

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Response to Politicub (Reply #23)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 02:04 PM

24. I would, 100%, too. Even as a staunch 2nd Amendment person I would give up a LOT of ground on it...

... but only if I thought the law would actually reduce gun violence. And I haven't yet seen one that I think would.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #24)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 02:10 PM

28. Smart people have come up with some good proposals to consider. Anything I say or

Propose you're going to find fault with.

And maybe you won't, but I'm sick of the circular discussions on this issue and am a little burned on it.

But I'll float a trial balloon - tax the fuck out of ammo. Make it hard to acquire and place strict limits on distribution and how much people can buy at once. Create an ammo waiting period.

Won't solve everything, but it will make a positive difference over time.

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Response to Politicub (Reply #28)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 02:20 PM

31. Look, I'm listening

And, yes, I'm sick of the violence and excuses made for it too, and what passes for discussion and debate about this, even on DU which is one of the best places I know of to talk to people.

I like the ammo tax. In fact I like excises in general, as a revenue matter, but that's another kettle. I like the ammo limit. I was in the Marines for 7 years and we had to account for every. single. round. we were ever handed. Have a limit on private purchase (per quarter, say) and if you want to go shoot at the range, they'll be happy to sell you the rounds to shoot there (with some sort of way of making sure people aren't sneaking the rounds off).

There you go. You have something you and I can get behind.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #31)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 02:26 PM

36. Sorry I was an ass earlier. I just think of my nephews when I see this news

and it gets me wound up.

They're just little children.

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Response to Politicub (Reply #17)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 03:25 PM

50. could you suggest something anyway?

I'm curious as well

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Response to Politicub (Reply #17)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:55 AM

181. You want restrictions, bans, prohibitions, you propose.

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Response to Eleanors38 (Reply #181)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 06:56 PM

184. Assault weapons ban, high capacity magazine ban, ammunition taxes

All very reasonable. Wouldn't stop all shootings. Not even close, but it will create a dent and will be progress.

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Response to Politicub (Reply #184)


Response to Politicub (Reply #184)


Response to Politicub (Reply #184)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:33 PM

190. Dent in what? Crime rates or school massacres?

1. Rifles account for -3% of all homicides, and AWs are just one example of rifle within that group. There are several auto-loading rifles which have been in use before the Pentagon let a conteact for "assault rifles" (full auto). These rifles don't look like your "assault weapons. I have one. 106 yrs old. It would "look" like an air gun to you.

I don't much care about mag capacity, and neither do mass murderers: they punks just carry several "standard" mags, meaningless.

A tax, so clearly announced as prohibitive and punitive, will be shit-canned by the courts as unconstitutional -- think Texas poll tax.

What are you driving at? Is it school shootings? I've proposed a DIRECT approach to this with a grant for schools which want to hire armed & trained personnel/LEO (2+/school), if schools want to. I want to. Do you?

trained personnel/LEO

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Response to Eleanors38 (Reply #190)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 12:58 PM

191. Yes. Will have a positive impact.

I disagree that your proposal that amounts to getting more guns out there. The answer to gun violence is not more guns. That has not worked.

The only path forward is banning assault weapon sales and closing all loopholes with gun shows and the like. This is just a starting point.

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Response to Politicub (Reply #191)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 04:59 PM

192. Unworkable. The goal you propose is general prohibition.

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Response to Eleanors38 (Reply #192)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 05:09 PM

193. If that's what you believe. You're wrong, of course.



General prohibition would be accomplished by a law that calls for.... Prohibition.



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Response to Recursion (Reply #15)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 02:11 PM

29. Ban manufacture and importation of guns and ammunition nt

nt

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Response to Fresh_Start (Reply #29)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 02:17 PM

30. I don't think a supply-side answer would work

Maybe it would. I don't know. But people get cocaine and heroin pretty damn easily, and they would with guns, too. There are 200 million guns in the US already and I don't know of a way to put the genie back in the bottle. Maybe cutting off the genie's lamp would help? Hell, get the party behind it and I'll follow. I just don't think it would.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #30)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 03:49 PM

65. Recursion, its a theoretical answer to your theoretical question

A law that would make guns "Difficult to acquire".
The truth is that scarcity would make guns difficult to acquire.

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Response to Fresh_Start (Reply #65)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 05:33 PM

93. Again

 

how well did that work with drugs?

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Response to AlexSatan (Reply #93)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 05:37 PM

95. idiots can make drugs in their bathrooms

but even a skilled handyman would have a difficult time making a working firearm.

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Response to Fresh_Start (Reply #95)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 05:45 PM

99. But yet most druggies do NOT

 

make the drugs in the bathrooms. Why is that?

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Response to Recursion (Reply #15)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 02:25 PM

35. How about mandatory psychological assessment before a gun purchase?

You want to buy a gun? Ok, but let's at least make sure you're emotionally and mentally sound enough to own one.

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Response to Blaukraut (Reply #35)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 02:28 PM

38. There is one for handguns, or at least a mental health system check, though it should be more...

...thorough (see VA Tech). Maybe we'll move towards doing the same thing for long guns.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #38)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 05:34 PM

94. But a mental health system check

 

just means the person hasn't been tagged as being a problem. There are a lot of folks with issues that have not been tagged in the system.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #15)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 02:29 PM

39. RF shielded tracking devices in all new guns. Harsh penalties if you try to break it.

Would slow things down. Not perfect, but perfection is impossible to achieve.

On edit: and with GPS

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Response to Politicub (Reply #39)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 03:17 PM

47. Shit, we failed that one sending guns into Mexico.

And no, I'm not talking about Fast & Furious, I'm talking about Bush Co.'s 'Wide Receiver' initiative.

Who would update the batteries?

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Response to Politicub (Reply #39)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:32 PM

122. That could work double duty.

If anyone got within so many yards of a school, the GPS and tracking device could be programmed to automatically call the police to alert them that someone is too damn close to a school with a gun. If that was the case, the police could stop these kinds of things before they happen, possibly. I like that idea. Even cell phones have GPS and all sorts of other hardware and software for tracking. Why not install something similar on guns? That is actually a workable idea that could be a big help.

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Response to Politicub (Reply #39)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:48 PM

152. And the gun is manufactured to be unusable if the GPS

tracking is removed/tampered with/batteries dead.

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Response to JimDandy (Reply #152)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:21 AM

155. Second amendment extremists are all the same

All you can talk about is how something won't work. How it isn't perfect.

But you know what? This and many other proposals will make a dent. Nothing will stop all shootings. It may not have stopped this one even.

But it would stop some of them.

You must be a miserable person whose family is miserable because of your insistence on perfection. Nothing is good enough for you.

Perfection doesn't exist. If that's your standard, it will never be met.


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Response to Politicub (Reply #155)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:11 AM

161. Um... I'm AGREEING with you.

Gun Control advocate here.

I had the same thought on requiring guns to be manufactured with GPS tracking. Meant the above as a reply to AtheistCrusader who was dogging you about how that wouldn't work because the batteries would die. I am all for "dents", incremental steps, stop-gaps or anything else that will slow down the gun violence and find AtheistCrusader's and Marengo's arguments transparent and disingenuous.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #15)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 02:40 PM

40. Outlaw gunshows. Outlaw private sales.

Outlaw gun sales at pawn shops.

Mandate registration of all firearms, both long guns and hand guns, with a 1-year voluntary registration period first followed by a manufacturer-to-dealer-to-purchaser records search that carries a $1000 fine.

All gun purchasers must pass a firearms training and safety course for each type of weapon purchased. All firearms purchasers must have childproof storage for the weapon purchased prior to taking the gun home.

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Response to DevonRex (Reply #40)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 02:46 PM

41. Why pawn shops and gun shows? They have the same laws as anybody else

A pawn shop owner, a dealer at a gun show, and your local WalMart all have the same regulations about sales.

Outlawing private sales may be something. All guns stay with their current owner and have to be surrendered to law enforcement at the time of the owner's death?

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Response to Recursion (Reply #41)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 03:10 PM

43. Personal experience about where the most

violations of FFRs happen in addition to extreme cheapness and poor quality of weapon easily obtainable in those settings.

In addition, gunshows are not permanent by design so they don't lend themselves to the type of training courses I have in mind. Real training courses.

I have seen a few pawn shops that were good on guns. Most did not cater to gun owners so didn't carry any kind of safe or even lockbox for gun purchasers. Certainly had no info on training courses.

I always, always advise people to find a real firearms store. No, I'm not an owner myself. Just used to carry for work. Long ago.

On edit: At death, they could be surrendered to LE for destruction or, if willed, could be transferred to an FFL holder until a background check can be done on the prospective heir/s and then transferred to that heir once the appropriate course and check have been passed. If the heir/s chooses not to take possession then LE can destroy the weapon.

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Response to DevonRex (Reply #40)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 03:38 PM

60. Agree with all points.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #15)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 03:49 PM

66. Just ban guns period, as they do in the UK, eventually the police will round up

 

all the ones used for crimes and the problem is solved. I know, consti-effing-tution. Oh yeah they have healthcare in the UK too.

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Response to Politicub (Original post)


Response to underoath (Reply #34)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 03:26 PM

51. You're a moron. n/t

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Response to Politicub (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 03:01 PM

42. I own guns...

... legally. And a bow too.

I DO NOT nor will I EVER support the NRA.

However -

I do have a problem with how gun laws are administered in this country.

Banning this type of gun or that type of gun, restricting magizine size or similar kinds of laws skirt the issue and effect the wrong group. Gun laws and fees and the like generally impact LEGAL gun owners making it more expensive and restrictive for those that wish to own guns legally. The group we need to create laws for are the ones that don't get guns through legal means or have nefarious reasons for getting them. Access to guns is the biggest problem we have. It's easy to get one and thanks to the NRA, getting easier and easier as time goes on.

Reasonable laws and regulations need to be universally implemented in all states. Registration, background checks and purchase limits are reasonable conditions that do little to impact legal ownership outside of a few time impositions. What they do is to provide an avenue to catch those that may not have the legal right to own a gun or are too unstable to own a gun from getting access to one. Laws like that don't eliminate the possiblity that those that shouldn't have a gun from getting one, but it is one mechanism toward that goal.

Another would be that before a gun can be sold, it has be ballistics tested to make sure the numbers match and the ballistics are on record. This would not impact the buyer, but it would put the onus on the seller to make sure the gun is legal and hasn't been used in a crime prior to being sold.

The ability to obtain an untraceable gun is wide open in this country if you are bent on obtaining one and thanks in large part to the NRA and if they had their way would be freely accessible everywhere. The NRA has a platform to do a world of good when it comes to useful and responsible regulation when it comes to gun ownership, but they do not use it. Instead, they advocate repealing and interferring with any and all gun legislation in all states everywhere. They are on the side of allowing guns in school zones and hospitals and shopping malls and arcades. Is it any wonder we have higher incidents of gun violence than any other industrialized nation?

Guns are a constitutionally protected right. With that right comes responsiblity for proper use.

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Response to PoliticalBiker (Reply #42)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 03:11 PM

44. The NRAwill come forth with new ways to deal with the school violence

I am sure that some nra nut will recommend new laws that allow children of kindergarden age be allowed to have consealed carry permits issued .Just add it to the school supply list . problem solved .

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Response to tapermaker (Reply #44)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 03:23 PM

49. I find this kind of antagonistic post annoying and unproductive.

 

The NRA has never advocated concealed carry permits for children.

Ever.

This is a serious, watershed moment in U.S. History. We need serious, deliberate discussion, not ridiculous red herrings.

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Response to Atypical Liberal (Reply #49)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 04:28 PM

88. sorry your offended .or annoyed

your right, the NRA hasnt advocated concealed carry permits for schoolchildren .they only advocate through themselves and alec laws to allow permits to adults to be allowed to carry a gun into schools ,daycare centers .example the new laws just pssed in the midwest.A gun nut relative at a family function said when i asked him about the colorado theatre shooting " if everyone had a gun in the theatre then things would have worked out much better " If you cant understand the use of sarcasm to deal with this grief when its obviuos nothing will change, then you and i will just have to agree to disagree.

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Response to tapermaker (Reply #88)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:25 AM

172. We need real solutions, not red herrings.

 

Condemning the NRA for things that it does not support is not productive.

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Response to Atypical Liberal (Reply #49)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:19 PM

151. Problem is...

... if the NRA could get political points out of it, damn straight they would.
The NRA is a large part of the problem with getting a handle on our gun problem in this country.
Until they start advocating for smart regulations FOR gun control, I put nothing past them and don't trust their intentions

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Response to Politicub (Original post)


Response to Politicub (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 03:29 PM

53. I'm with you OP, I don't want to hear from them, PERIOD

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Response to Politicub (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 03:37 PM

57. Amen to that.

The gun nut NRA spokespeople at DU need to sit the fuck down. You're not fooling anyone with your bullshit talking points- and How dare you spew them here today. How fucking dare you.

It is WAY past time to shut the open door policy on the gun nut NRA assholes who post with such abandon here. I'm sick to fucking death of them.

Regardless if they pretend to be Democrats and skirt the line, if they are spewing NRA talking points they don't fucking belong here. Period.

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Response to Raffi Ella (Reply #57)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 03:37 PM

59. +1

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Response to Politicub (Reply #59)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 05:43 PM

97. + 2

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Response to Raffi Ella (Reply #57)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 05:04 PM

89. I've yet to see a thread started today

about how great guns are, other than the sarcastic ones accusing gun owners of having blood on their hands or somehow being responsible for this tragedy. So I don't think the "assholes" are instigating anything, you are.
FUCK YOU GUN OWNERS!! seems to be fine, but even the slightest bit of reaction by the people being told to fuck off turns into a fuckin hate-fueled shit storm. Telling people they don't belong here because they have a different opinion than you is kind of the opposite of why this site exists.

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Response to EvilAL (Reply #89)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:58 PM

137. Not really.

This is a liberal site. People are expected to be liberals here. For example, if you come out in favor of Mitt Romney, you aren't welcome. It's not an "anything-goes" site.

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Response to Arugula Latte (Reply #137)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:02 PM

146. It's expected that you would be

liberal, expected to vote democratic and all that, but topics are different. There are liberals who like some of the things you don't like, maybe they aren't liberal enough for you, but those people should not be told they should shut up about it. Seems like it's ok to call people that own guns all kinds of names on here, but not ok to defend it. I get the whole NRA bad thing, it probably is, but lumpng everyone together and starting fuckin fights is the wrong way about it.
I realize in a tragedy like this emotions run rampant, but people that had absolutely nothing to do with it are getting reamed for saying anything that might seem like they like guns or the NRA. It's not OK to do this and I have seen tons of people violating the personal attack rules.. It doesn't fucking help.

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Response to Arugula Latte (Reply #137)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:32 AM

157. Meh...party and people are usually off limits but issues? Pretty rare, folks hold clear right wing

positions on labor, trade, taxes, and the military all day every day.

There are plenty that wouldn't even be in accepted circles of the TeaPubliKlan party even 15 years ago on civil liberties.

Hell, the party is chock full of neocons, neoliberals, authoritarians of all stripes.

Gun control may be a Democratic plank but it isn't a liberal position, it is an authoritarian one that in virtually all cases seeks not to eliminate a right (which is conservative as it is, regressive as a matter of a fact) but to limit it to the few the few, in fact to those most abusive in the power structure that exist to protect it, not citizens. I don't get the liberal bit at all, no matter how popular with self identifying liberals.

Like I said, I see it as an authoritarian versus libertarian issue. Authoritarian is at odds with liberalism.

Either way let's not pretend that there aren't some rightest folk all around on some issues from bottom to tippy top. How is the right to keep and bear arms by individuals somehow the most rightwing position of all times?
Authoritarian governments historically demand an unarmed populace. The right is enumerated for thousands of years of history.

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Response to Politicub (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 03:37 PM

58. I'm not a gun nut by any means

I don't own any guns, and rarely have I used one (I did some shooting on a Saturday about 8 years ago).

But the US is so infused with guns that it's hard to determine how to deal with it. It's so unlike any other country in the world that we can't quite model a plan after others. True, Canada has a lot of guns as well, so we can model a plan after theirs.

The problem is not in the laws. The problem is within the nature of the US citizen who thinks the solution to some problems is a squeeze of the trigger. How can one legislate a new national philosophy? Frankly, I see the US as the prime example of a country that really shouldn't have guns available to anyone. Switzerland has guns. Israel has guns. As I said, Canada has guns. So do a number of other countries. (And there are many countries that don't allow personal possession of arms, as well.) It's just that here in the US, irresponsible behavior by gun users, from trigger happy cops or wanna-be cops (looking at you, Mr. Zimmerman), quiet loner types, on-the-edge spouses, to all sorts of other gun lovers.

Yet, even with so many gun nuts, there are even more responsible gun owners, probably a 10-to-1 ratio of responsible to irresponsible. That's not reassuring given that we probably have about 20,000,000 or more gun owners. With a 10:1 ratio, that's 2 million nut cases carrying guns thinking they're John Wayne or Rambo, or there's a potential mugger/rapist at every corner. Even with a 100:1 or a 1000:1 ratio, you're looking at 200,000 or 20,000 nut-cases with a weapon.

How many mass gun deaths is acceptable? That's the question the US citizenry has to ask itself. If we're willing to accept 1 or fewer such shootings a month, then we can craft laws to attain that goal. If we're willing to accept no more than 1 per quarter, then we can craft laws to attain that goal. Then, over time, we can see if we can meet those goals. To say no shootings from now on is an impossible goal to reach. Even in such a pacific country as Norway, such shootings do occur, but much more rarely.

We also need to randomly choose some states to be test states and choose some other states as control states. In test states, we implement specific gun laws to see what would happen. Whether crimes go up or down, whether shootings such as this go up or down, and compare them to control states. Some of the test states might have to implement rather draconian (for the gun-lovers, personally, I don't really mind) laws such as confiscation of all arms, to be held at a local armory. Weapons can only be checked out upon request (for hunting or target practice or sport). The test could take 5 to 10 years to complete. Such a test should validate or invalidate a lot of the rhetoric that goes on about how gun control should or should not be conducted.

Of course, I'm sure various factions would love to game the test: cheat, rig the findings, cause mayhem in gun-controlled states (by bringing in guns, giving them to people to shoot about, etc.). That would have to be controlled as well.

I wonder if the United States will ever wean itself of guns.

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Response to Politicub (Original post)


Response to Azathoth (Reply #61)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 03:45 PM

63. You don't even know the definition of fascism. This thread has nothing to

do with that.

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Response to Azathoth (Reply #61)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 03:47 PM

64. GO. AWAY. n/t.

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Response to Azathoth (Reply #61)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 03:58 PM

73. You are speaking the truth

 

that will not go over here well.

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Response to Berserker (Reply #73)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 04:00 PM

74. Don't conflate "truth" with mere opinion for convenience sake

Don't conflate "truth" with mere opinion for convenience sake-- it advertizes you as dogmatic, that will not go over too well here either....

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Response to Politicub (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 03:45 PM

62. Spot-on post: they DO have that blood on their hands, and they don't care. They want them

their precious guns, and they don't give a flying fuck how many people have to die, how many kids have to be murdered, in order to have the "right" to own assault rifles and strut into Wal Mart with a high-capacity magazine pistol perched in their pants.

As I said before: At this point I am so heart-sick of what the gun lobby and it's shills and supporters have again wrought today in this country that it feels a bit revolting and disgusting to even have to share a discussion board conversation with them.

But here they are RIGHT NOW, still out and about on the DU forums peddling the NRA line. Absolutely disgusting.






Edit: revise & extended remarks.

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Response to apocalypsehow (Reply #62)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 03:50 PM

69. God bless the people who are sending the NRA supporters to hell

We need to do something now!

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Response to Politicub (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 03:50 PM

67. What's a 2nd amendment extremist?

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Response to NeedleCast (Reply #67)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 04:02 PM

76. Apparently someone that follows what the Constitution says

If you hate the 2nd amendment...propose to repeal it. We have the right to do that.

But as long as that amendment is in that document, we have to follow it. America is a nation of laws. And the Constitution is the highest law of the land.

It is what it is.

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Response to davidn3600 (Reply #76)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 04:06 PM

80. Scalia, is that you?

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Response to Politicub (Reply #80)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 04:16 PM

87. No...just an average American that follows the constitution

Just because I admit that the 2nd amendment exists doesn't make me an extremist.

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Response to davidn3600 (Reply #87)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:12 PM

148. No, probably Scalia or Thomas

or some other right wing 2nd Amendment fundamentalist.

It wasn't until the 1970s, when Nixon wrested control of the Court, that the 2nd Amendment fundamentalist position became THE constitutional interpretation.

Until then the Court had ruled that federal and state governments had the power to limit the "right" the bear arms. In 1939 the Court unanimously agreed that the right to bear arms "is not one which may be utilized for private purposes but only one which exists where the arms are borne in the militia or some other military organization provided for by law and intended for the protection of the state."

It wasn't until the 1970s that the right wing GOP and the ultra right wing NRA hooked up to concoct this absurdist fundamentalist view of the 2nd Amendment.

One or two changes in the Court, and your whole "constitutional" argument goes out the window.

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Response to NeedleCast (Reply #67)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 04:06 PM

79. An extremist is...

An extremist is somebody, who in the face of a disaster like this, is confused about what makes somebody a gun extremist.

---
Credit goes to Jonny up thread for his response to this question earlier.

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Response to Politicub (Reply #79)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 05:17 PM

92. This is a non-answer

Do you have a serious one?

Is a 2nd amendment extremist any who owns a gun?

Anyone who owns a hundgun?

Anyone who owns a hunting rifle?

Someone who doesn't own a gun but supports the lawful, regulated ownership of a gun?

All of the above?

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Response to Politicub (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 03:50 PM

68. My hands are shaking with emotion....grief, rage, fear, guit-wrenching sadness.

I cannot stand guns rights arguments on a good day.
Today is as bad a day as you could EVER imagine to talk to me about the value of a gun.

Children.
5 and 6 years old.
Killed...no EXECUTED.

Now hearing it was 20 children.
20 families destroyed.
20 young lives ended before they began.

6 additional victims and the piece of excrement responsible for this massacre.
Days like this make it easier to understand the concept of hell.

I don't want to hear about any sacred "rights" today.
I barely want to breath in and out.

If you love your guns, today is not the day to tell anyone about it...but feel free to anally or orally probe yourself with your guns and please be sure to keep the safety OFF while you do so...

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Response to Moostache (Reply #68)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 04:04 PM

77. +1

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Response to Moostache (Reply #68)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:00 PM

117. Your signature quote seems rather ironic underneath your post

I don't like guns, I've never owned one, never fired one, and I can't think of any situation that would make me get one.

But this is really poor logic that you can't talk about guns today. Every day people are killed with guns. Can we not talk about it ever then?

I remember a day a few years ago where around 3000 people were killed because a handful of morons decided to fly planes into buildings. One of the myriad of responses was for the NYPD and other law enforcement agencies to begin spying on utterly innocent Muslims. Some blithering idiots even killed Muslims or those thought to be Muslims because they were all suspect (and because they were too stupid to realize that Muslims and Sihks aren't the same).

The U.S. rounded up over 100,000 people of Japanese descent after Pearl Harbor without any evidence that they were spying for Japan, but there was little to no involvement of those interned working for Japan. But because 2,000 Americans were killed, we justified imprisoning tens of thousands of innocent people.

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Response to Politicub (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 03:51 PM

70. Yes, they sure do.

If only we could somehow translate that into reality - that their hands would literally drip blood whenever something like this happens. Might drag a few of them into reality.

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Response to Politicub (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 04:05 PM

78. Outraged by their OUTRAGE

Gun control and this tragedy are interlated. It needs to be discussed and I'm outraged by their
"outrage"

I just posted yesterday about the NRA's lobbying power on the US and the negative impacts it has. I also asked how many more tragedies it would take. I wish it wasn't so soon that I would be given another example, especially of this magnitude.

Check out my articles on the CT tragedy and the NRA Lobbying Power called The Killing Routine

http://unapologeticallyliberal.wordpress.com/2012/12/13/the-killing-routine-nras-effect-on-the-us/

http://unapologeticallyliberal.wordpress.com/2012/12/13/the-killing-routine-nras-effect-on-the-us/

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Response to TimKeller (Reply #78)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 04:08 PM

81. Great blog.

Welcome to DU!

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Response to Politicub (Original post)


Response to Hells Liberal (Reply #82)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 04:10 PM

84. If you're not in favor of solutions and think everything is peachy keen

Then you're part of the problem.

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Response to Politicub (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 04:08 PM

83. Guns are NOT more important than PEOPLE.


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Response to Politicub (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 05:12 PM

91. So what's the solution?

 

How do you ban handguns without repealing the 2nd Amendment?

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Response to Politicub (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 05:40 PM

96. That's about a 2 on the helpful comments scale

(Scale of 1 to 100)

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Response to Politicub (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 05:44 PM

98. To the 20 year olds: you have blood on your hands

 

To the males - you have blood on your hands
To the sons of teachers ( and teachers who birthed them) - You have blood on your hands.
To the <whatever race or ethnic group this person was> - You have blood on your hands.


OR

We could blame the people who actually commit these horrific crimes.

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Response to AlexSatan (Reply #98)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 05:47 PM

101. The gun nuts

Next time you pull the trigger stop and think.

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Response to AlexSatan (Reply #98)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:33 PM

123. It seems that would be too cerebral...

"Lizard brain" reactions aren't limited to the right wing, as much as many "progressives" might suggest otherwise.

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Response to Politicub (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:26 PM

106. You and your kind are the best god damned thing that ever happened to the NRA and the gun industry.

 

this country is forever awash in firearms because you can't leave well enough alone. for 20 years you guys have been trying to ban firearms. Every time something like this happens, you start in, and every time the only thing that happens is you incite Americans to buy more guns out of fear. For 20 years your rhetoric has fueled the NRA and the firearms industry and now, here we are, living in a country that is super saturated with firearms and psychopaths. Good job buddy.

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Response to trouble.smith (Reply #106)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:47 PM

129. actually, it's the nut jobs who think of people who favor gun control as "your kind" ... the same

kind of nut jobs who are paranoid of any kind of regulation and support the NRA.
The nation is now disgusted with the NRA. Good job, assholes!

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #129)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:55 PM

134. keep telling yourself that. See how far it gets you.

 

It's worked so well for you for the past 20 years.

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Response to Politicub (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:29 PM

107. Meh. They're used to it. nt

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Response to Politicub (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:53 PM

132. I think the people who put together the Constitution . . .

and the 2nd amendment had no idea that they gave the right to own guns to gunowners the right to kill babies in school and use THEIR words to justify this madness....they are turning in their graves...

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Response to Politicub (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:56 PM

135. I am 100% with you today.

Actually, I've always held this position.

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Response to Politicub (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:04 PM

139. The right to kill should never trump the right to life

and I get so tired of hearing people tell me that if an innocent person dies so some gun owner has the right to possess the means to kill another (whenever they "feel" threatened, whatever the f*** that means).

It is past time to start holding up the victims as martyrs who, without choice, gave their lives so that anyone can exercise their second amendment rights.

The other thing I'm so tired of hearing is how the criminals can always get their hands on guns, and all the paranoid citizens out there (who, apparently, aren't criminals) need to have guns too in order to "protect" themselves just in case some day one of the people they claim are criminals comes along and makes them feel "threatened." That only "law-abiding" citizens will legally own firearms and will always use them responsibly. Well fine. I just never get anyone to answer me when I respond: "Isn't everyone a lawabiding citizen until they decide NOT to be?"

Now wasn't it just a few days ago when some dumbf*ck gun owner "forgot" to remove a bullet from his cartridge and "accidentally" killed his own son? Was his son's life worth those alleged 2nd Amendment rights, and if so, then why the hell aren't we holding these victims or martyrs for "freedom" as heroes for those rights? Cuz it might sound a little sick? Well, dead is dead. . .and every victim essentially was told that his/her right to life didn't matter as much as the right to be unnecessarily killed, whether intentionally or through gross negligence.

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Response to Politicub (Original post)


Response to Politicub (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:17 AM

153. what he said.

 

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Response to Politicub (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:31 AM

162. It's so productive

to start the dialog off by calling the other side bottom dwellers with the blood of children on their hands. Glad we could have this "discussion".

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Response to Budgies Revenge (Reply #162)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:48 AM

163. The OP wasn't calling for a discussion or a dialog. There is no need to do that.

I think people are too used to some journalists who try to be fair when one side is completely bonkers.

If the Republican Party started advocating ritual sacrifice, I think some journalists would still try to be 'fair' and present that side as having as much merit as the non-ritual sacrifice Democrats.

2nd amendment folks think that owning a portable instrument that shoots lethal metal pellets is more important of a right than protecting the life and liberty of the rest of the people.

That argument is bonkers and does not deserve to be afforded the same status as the folks wanting to protect the life and liberty of the rest of the people.

There is a reason most of the rest of the first world's Democracies restricts guns much more than we do.

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #163)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:01 AM

164. With all due respect

I believe there is absolutely a need to have a discussion about this. You have people on one extreme calling for outright banning of guns, and on the other that everybody should be carrying them everywhere--and then most people who are somewhere in the middle. If we as a country are going to be talking about policy and changes to the law, then we've got to be willing to discuss it rationally. All the OP did was make that discussion harder to have.

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Response to Budgies Revenge (Reply #164)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:12 AM

165. Nope, no need to discuss it. One side has a sane perspective, the other doesn't.

The sane side just needs to keep pressing until enough of the rest of the folks see the light.

There is no point to discussing something with people whose viewpoint is crazy.

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #165)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:31 AM

166. Well, I won't hazzard

a guess as to what you consider to be the sane perspective, but since you feel no need for discussion at all, I'll take my leave of this thread.

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #165)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:33 AM

168. Look up the meaning of the word "democratic" please.

 

The person you are responding to is right. Some of you are embarrassing yourselves.

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Response to Kei7777 (Reply #168)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:11 AM

171. Nothing in the meaning of 'democratic' requires one to consider insanity. If one side proposes

genocide, for instance, I think we can all agree that there is no reason to discuss that for the sake of 'democracy'.

Again, we are dealing with a false equivalency. Froomkin lays that out well here--> http://steveleser.blogspot.com/2012/12/froomkin-campaign-coverage-in-2012.html

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Response to Budgies Revenge (Reply #162)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 07:12 PM

187. If you don't support sensible gun control, then you are a bottom dweller and I

Don't have anything more to say to you.

If you wish to propose solutions, then you are welcome here.

But we're done coddling the extremists.

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Response to Politicub (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:30 AM

167. The NRA ..

I still remember the NRA making excuses when some idiot went into that Amish school in Pennsylvania and shot and killed 5 girls in 2006.He even sexually assaulted a few of them.Oh and he had like 4 different guns with him.Coward committed suicide.The NRA have no soul.

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Response to Politicub (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:27 AM

173. KnR...n/t

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Response to Politicub (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:31 AM

175. Anybody who gives one damn penny to the fucking NRA

is an accessory to the murder of 20 innocent babies, as far as I'm concerned.

And may the NRA and other gun lust organizations, ROT IN HELL!

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Response to workinclasszero (Reply #175)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:36 AM

176. Unfortunately, there are millions more that support the NRA, but are free-riders. The whole bunch


needs to be viewed as a threat to society, as far as guns are concerned.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #176)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:54 AM

180. "The whole bunch needs to be viewed as a threat to society..."

No doubt about it!

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Response to workinclasszero (Reply #175)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 07:05 PM

186. Here here!

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Response to Politicub (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:53 AM

179. I'm a gun owner and I am fucking sick of the gun nuts.

I am against total gun bans , but to all of those idiots who are against COMMON SENSE legislature to curb the proliferation of guns in this country, FUCK YOU!

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #179)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 07:03 PM

185. My husband and I are, too

The average gun owner won't be impacted at all by measures like an assault weapons, semi automatics and high capacity magazine bans.

No one needs that stuff.

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