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Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:02 AM

Noam Chomsky: America, Moral Degenerate

http://www.alternet.org/civil-liberties/noam-chomsky-america-moral-degenerate



Eric Bailey: The last four years have seen significant changes in American federal policy in regards to human rights. One of the few examples of cooperation between the Democratic and Republican parties over the last four years has been the passing of the National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) of 2012. This bill has given the United States military the power to arrest American citizens, indefinitely, without charge, trial, or any other form of due process of law and the Obama administration has and continues to fight a legal battle in federal court to prevent that law from being declared unconstitutional. Obama authorized the assassination of three American citizens, including Anwar al-Awlaki and his 16-year-old son, admittedly all members of Al Qaeda -- all without judicial review.

Additionally, the Guantanamo Bay prison remains open, the Patriot Act has been extended and the TSA has expanded at breakneck speeds. What is your take on America's human rights record over the past four years and can you contrast Obama's policies with those of his predecessor, George W. Bush?

Noam Chomsky: Obama's policies have been approximately the same as Bush's, though there have been some slight differences, but that's not a great surprise. The Democrats supported Bush's policies. There were some objections on mostly partisan grounds, but for the most part, they supported his policies and it's not surprising that they have continued to do so. In some respects Obama has gone even beyond Bush. The NDAA, which you mentioned, was not initiated by Obama (when it passed Congress, he said he didn't approve of it and wouldn't implement it), but he nevertheless did sign it into law and did not veto it. It was pushed through by hawks, including Joe Lieberman and others.

In fact, there hasn't been that much of a change. The worst part of the NDAA is that it codified -- or put into law -- what had already been a regular practice. The practices hadn't been significantly different. The one part that received public attention is what you mentioned, the part that permits the indefinite detention of American citizens, but why permit the indefinite detention of anybody? It's a gross violation of fundamental human rights and civil law, going all the way back to the Magna Carta in the 13th century, so it's a very severe attack on elementary civil rights, both under Bush and under Obama. It's bipartisan!

31 replies, 2874 views

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Arrow 31 replies Author Time Post
Reply Noam Chomsky: America, Moral Degenerate (Original post)
xchrom Dec 2012 OP
marmar Dec 2012 #1
xchrom Dec 2012 #2
Iggy Dec 2012 #9
cliss Dec 2012 #28
byeya Dec 2012 #29
Iggy Dec 2012 #31
Egalitarian Thug Dec 2012 #3
xchrom Dec 2012 #4
green for victory Dec 2012 #5
ananda Dec 2012 #11
ReRe Dec 2012 #14
Comrade_McKenzie Dec 2012 #6
sulphurdunn Dec 2012 #8
Democracyinkind Dec 2012 #13
ReRe Dec 2012 #15
KoKo Dec 2012 #17
Marr Dec 2012 #25
Jefferson23 Dec 2012 #7
Fantastic Anarchist Dec 2012 #10
malaise Dec 2012 #12
marmar Dec 2012 #16
KoKo Dec 2012 #18
tex-wyo-dem Dec 2012 #22
KoKo Dec 2012 #19
blackspade Dec 2012 #20
woo me with science Dec 2012 #21
KoKo Dec 2012 #23
Egalitarian Thug Dec 2012 #24
Solly Mack Dec 2012 #26
SomethingFishy Dec 2012 #27
xchrom Dec 2012 #30

Response to xchrom (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:05 AM

1. Truths that too many don't want to hear.

nt

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Response to marmar (Reply #1)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:09 AM

2. yes. the Through The Looking Glass effect.

you can't quite believe people aren't horrified by this.

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Response to marmar (Reply #1)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:00 AM

9. Yet I'm Supposed to Believe There's a HUGE Difference

 

between the "two" political parties.

Gimme a break, please.

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Response to Iggy (Reply #9)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 02:10 PM

28. The Democrats and the

Republicans: one creature with 2 heads. There's really no difference between them.

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Response to cliss (Reply #28)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 02:20 PM

29. The Soviets never figured out that the way to have a one party system is to have two parties with

 

interchangeable parts.

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Response to cliss (Reply #28)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 09:14 PM

31. Shhhhhhhhhhhh.......

 

the anti Naderites are about...

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Response to xchrom (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:12 AM

3. All hail The Empire! Obviously Noam Chomsky must be silenced by any means necessary.

 

It is only through the most divine beneficence and forward looking vision of Our Current Glorious Leader that the cur still breathes.

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #3)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:21 AM

4. ...

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Response to xchrom (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:28 AM

5. a drone bomb here and a drone bomb there

 

everywhere a drone bomb



old unca sam, he had an empire
eee yikes
eee yikes oh



if a repuke did it..............

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Response to green for victory (Reply #5)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:11 AM

11. Here a drone, there a drone ..

.. everywhere a drone drone.

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Response to ananda (Reply #11)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:29 AM

14. Everywhere a drone drone

We can make a pretty good anti-war song out of this, you know what I mean, Vern?

"Uncle Sam, he had a war,
ee-i-ee-i-oo.
And in this war he had a drone,
ee-i-ee-i-oo,
a drone drone here,
a drone drone there,
here a drone,
there a drone,
Everywhere a
drone drone...

What else does Uncle Sam have in his war?

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Response to xchrom (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:34 AM

6. Heard all this before. Where's the new material, Chomsky?

 

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Response to Comrade_McKenzie (Reply #6)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:55 AM

8. I believe

what you're describing is called desensitization.

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Response to Comrade_McKenzie (Reply #6)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:01 AM

13. The audacity! The man's repeating himself! Hang him


Maybe he wouldn't have to repeat himself,
if Democratic administrations had the spine to not repeat what their R-predecessors did.

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Response to Comrade_McKenzie (Reply #6)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:38 AM

15. Ya know. there's a young DUer somewhere in here...

...who never heard of Noam. It's a teaching moment. Can you at least give the OP that?

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Response to Comrade_McKenzie (Reply #6)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:43 AM

17. He mentions why Assange is concerned about extradition to the US in article:

Rendition is just sending people abroad to be tortured. Actually, that's barred as well by the Magna Carta – the foundation of Anglo-American law. It's explicitly barred to send somebody across the seas to be punished and tortured. It's not just done by the United States, either.

It's done all over Western Europe. Britain has participated in it. Sweden has participated. It's one of the reasons for a lot of the concerns about extraditing Julian Assange to Sweden. Canada has been implicated as was Ireland, but to Ireland's credit it was one of the few places where there were mass popular protests against allowing the Shannon Airport to be used for CIA rendition. In most countries there has been very little protest or not a word. I don't know of any recent cases so maybe that policy is no longer being implemented, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was still in effect.

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Response to Comrade_McKenzie (Reply #6)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 01:34 PM

25. Let me guess-- you liked it during the Bush years.

But now, the same observations are .

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Response to xchrom (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:53 AM

7. Tragic but true. K&R. n/t

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Response to xchrom (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:06 AM

10. He's absolutely right ... again.

Quell surprise.

Now queue the character assassination by the Chomsky-haters.

3 ... 2 ... 1

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Response to xchrom (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:49 AM

12. Which is why who is SOS hardly matters

All hawks all the time

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Response to malaise (Reply #12)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:42 AM

16. Sad but true, Malaise.

The Military-Industrial Complex will get what it wants. All the time.

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Response to xchrom (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:47 AM

18. Chomsky on the killing of Osama Bin Laden:


In fact, we might ask the same question about the murder of Osama Bin Laden. Notice I use the term “murder.” When heavily armed elite troops capture a suspect, unarmed and defenseless, accompanied by his wives, and then shoot him, kill him, and dump his body into the ocean without an autopsy, that's sheer assassination. Also notice that I said “suspect.” The reason is because of another principle of law, that also goes back to the 13th century -- that a man is presumed innocent until proven guilty. Before that, he's a suspect.

In the case of Osama Bin Laden, the United States had never formally charged him with 9/11 and part of the reason was that they didn't know that he was responsible. In fact, eight months after 9/11 and after the most intensive inquiry in history, the FBI explained that it suspected that the 9/11 plot was hatched in Afghanistan (didn't mention Bin Laden), and was implemented in the United Arab Emirates, Germany, and of course, the United States. That's eight months after the attack and there's nothing substantive that they've learned since then that does more than increase the suspicion.

My own assumption is that the suspicion is almost certainly correct, but there's a big difference between having a very confident belief and showing someone to be guilty. And even if he's guilty, he was supposed to be apprehended and brought before a court. That's British and American law going back eight centuries. He's not supposed to be murdered and have his body dumped without an autopsy, but support for this is very nearly universal. Actually, I wrote one of the few critical articles on it and my article was bitterly condemned by commentators across the spectrum, including the Left, because the assassination was so obviously just, since we suspected him of committing a crime against us. And that tells you something about the significant, I would say “moral degeneration,” running throughout the whole intellectual class. And yes, Obama has continued this and in some respects extended it, but it hardly comes as a surprise.

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Response to KoKo (Reply #18)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:33 AM

22. The problem with Chomsky is that he speaks...

The unvarnished truth without the cloud of emotion. His arguments are steeped in historical, academic and legal president, without the poison of partisan opinion.

I say this is his problem because few people can separate their opinion from fact, even when the obvious supported facts are presented to them in such clear susinct ways as Chomsky is able to do. Few people can handle when their predetermined world view is challenged and/or destroyed by verifiable data.

The fact is that OBL was assassinated when viewed from the precident of established law.

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Response to xchrom (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:40 PM

19. Needs to be Read...Far and Wide...because it's an Opinion that gets little views but is

CRUX of our Situation here in America. AMERICAS.....South and North!

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Response to xchrom (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 12:39 AM

20. K&R

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Response to xchrom (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:23 AM

21. K&R

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Response to xchrom (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:36 AM

23. Despite the title...this is an interesting weekend read from Chomsky

and worth the time to read the whole long article. He has some new insights into issues that have concerned some of us Democrats.

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Response to xchrom (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 01:33 PM

24. Obvious and timely.

 

Half the nation is raging to ban private ownership of small arms even as it denies the human right to live and simultaneously supports mass murder on a global scale.

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Response to xchrom (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 01:38 PM

26. K&R

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Response to xchrom (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 01:47 PM

27. The NDAA, for anyone who bothered to read it is.. AWFUL..

But DU seemed quite happy with it. Matter of fact I remember it being defended vigorously, by people who didn't even bother to read it. I gave up trying to convince people how fucked up it was.

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Response to SomethingFishy (Reply #27)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 02:53 PM

30. Shrug - some people put party before the nation.

It's the DU divide - an obvious example.

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