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Fri Dec 14, 2012, 05:50 AM

 

The Silent Treatment: A Day in the Life of a Student in ‘No Excuses’ Land

Meet Carolina. This college-bound fifth grader is fortunate enough to attend a charter school where expectations are high and innovation and excellence abound. There’s just one wee catch. In order to realize her goal of opportunity and the promise of independence, Carolina must spend the next SEVEN YEARS in near silence. Sweet Carolina is not a novice in a convent or an inmate in a children’s prison but a resident of a horrifying place called “no excuses” land that, while often lauded by education rephormers, is rarely seen from within. You see, Carolina is a would-be student at a proposed new school, Argosy Collegiate Charter School, in Fall River, Massachusetts. As part of its application to the state Board of Education, Argosy included a detailed hour-by-hour look at what Carolina’s typical school day is like (note: Day in the Life begins on page 144 of the application). The following is an excerpt from Carolina’s day.

7:10 am – Carolina, an Argosy Collegiate fifth grader is ready to board the school bus... Carolina’s mother, Mrs. Medeiros, an Argosy Collegiate Volunteer, supervises her daughter and the other four students who board the bus at this stop. Mrs. Medeiros asks each student if they are ready to learn today. Students respond with an enthusiastic, “Yes, I’m ready to learn today. I can’t wait to learn something new...!” Once the school bus arrives, Carolina and her peers board the bus one at a time and in silence, other than a greeting for...the bus driver, who responds with, “Good morning, Carolina. Are you Determined to learn today?”

7:27 am – Carolina arrives to Argosy Collegiate...Mr. Silvia, one of her math teachers...boards the...bus every day as part of his morning duties. Mr. Silvia...signals them non-verbally to stand and walk off the bus. Mr. Silvia continues this procedure, row by row, and the students maintain their silence...

7:30 am – The Executive Director, Ms. Pavao, opens the school doors, and warmly and individually greets every student by name.... “Good Morning, Carolina! Why are you here today?” “I am here to learn,” Carolina replies. “What will it take?” asks Ms. Pavao. “Determination, Responsibility, Excellence, Ambition, and Maturity,” replies Carolina...

It goes on reader. On and on and on and on. Dismissal is still hours away, meaning that Carolina has SLANT, many more timers, binders, 3-2-1′s, 1-2-3′s, DREAM points, exit tickets, “I do, you do, we do,” Q2, FOCUS and enrichment to go before at last boarding the bus for her silent ride home. But there is good news. Once fifth grade draws to its inevitable end, Carolina will have only 1295 days of silence to go before she gets to college…

http://edushyster.com/?p=1425

no joke: this is a transcript of the school officials' own explanation of what a typical day looks like.

edushyster.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/argosy.doc.docx

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Reply The Silent Treatment: A Day in the Life of a Student in ‘No Excuses’ Land (Original post)
HiPointDem Dec 2012 OP
Democracyinkind Dec 2012 #1
Recursion Dec 2012 #4
Democracyinkind Dec 2012 #7
Recursion Dec 2012 #12
Democracyinkind Dec 2012 #14
Recursion Dec 2012 #17
Democracyinkind Dec 2012 #19
Recursion Dec 2012 #26
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HiPointDem Dec 2012 #9
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HiPointDem Dec 2012 #36
pnwmom Dec 2012 #87
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Response to HiPointDem (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 05:54 AM

1. Edufascism. Great at producing critical thinkers. NOT....

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Response to Democracyinkind (Reply #1)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 05:59 AM

4. I don't know how much good critical thinking is without...

... an underlying mastery of basic facts and, more importantly, the ability to concentrate for more than 5 minutes on something. Getting kids to sit still, quietly, is a good kind of discipline.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #4)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:02 AM

7. I agree. But silently marching in lockstep.. Not the best of ideas in education...


Have you read the article? I was commenting on the fascist set up of the concept that this school presents.

I'm all for teaching kids to concentrate, to be academically rigorous and all that. But this seems ridiculously over the top.

In fact, I don't see how enforcing a general rule of silence outside of the school premises helps kids in developing their concentration.

Really, this seems like a fascist's wet dream, not something grounded in educational science.

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Response to Democracyinkind (Reply #7)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:06 AM

12. Yeah, I think it's a sad day when teaching kids self-discipline feels "fascist"

If they have the parent and student buy-in it takes for this to actually happen, we should be encouraging it. This is exactly what charter schools are for: getting committed students and parents together into an educational format they like.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #12)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:11 AM

14. Enforcing silence at the bus stop is "teaching self discipline"?

It's fascist to me. The whole make up of the school is. I don't see how this appeals to anyone on the left.

And that's not because I'm some unicorn loving hippie. I am probably more favorable of strict schools than most others on the left. But this is over the top, IMO. WAY over the top.

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Response to Democracyinkind (Reply #14)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:14 AM

17. What part of it bothers you? Being quiet on the bus?

God, I would have loved that as a kid if the other kids were sitting quietly rather than throwing stuff at me.

If they let them talk on the bus would that make it better for you? Or do you really want kids to just talk through class, too? Because it shows how creative they are?

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Response to Recursion (Reply #17)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:18 AM

19. It's the whole set up. Shutting up BEFORE getting on the bus. Having a predetermined greeting for


the driver. Being told when to sit down, when to stand up, in the bus.

Seems very creepy to me. Very 1933, in my mind.

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Response to Democracyinkind (Reply #19)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:27 AM

26. It's THE MAN, man! They're trying to keep these kids down! Make them conform, man!



I went to a Montessori school through 4th grade (that's as liberal and squishy and unicorn as it gets) and we had canned greetings for the bus driver and the morning duty teacher.

These are kids from Fall River and New Bedford. They're poor and they're tough, and many of them are very smart but haven't had an educational framework that can make up for the environment they're in. This one tries to, and it's a good enough idea that a lot of parents are interested enough to volunteer like the one in the story.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #26)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:30 AM

29. Poor dirty hippie kids! You have to pound some sense into them, or they won't march in lock step

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Response to Democracyinkind (Reply #29)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:34 AM

32. They aren't marching, they exit the bus by row

KIPP schools do march between classes (and yes, that's creepy, and I also don't like full-on KIPP) but they aren't doing that here. I'm not saying there's no amount of faux-discipline that's just pointless flash; I am saying this school isn't there yet.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #32)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:38 AM

34. Personal taste.

What I'm saying, is: They're there.

I agree that there are worse schools, and that this isn't the worst example that can come to one's mind. I just fear this is the new mentality as far as education is concerned. I've got no problems with strict discipline, but let them be kids.

So, maybe it is just a question of personal taste... I find it over the top. then again, I haven't attended school in the US since 1992, except for an odd stint in HS. Maybe that's why we react so differently to this story, which is all that our back-and forth is establishing.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #12)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 01:22 AM

126. There's "Discipline" and then there's "repression"

And there's a world of difference between the two.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #4)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:04 AM

9. I wonder if this is what the Obama girls do at their school.

 

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #9)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:10 AM

13. Sidwell Friends is not SLANT

Two of my friends taught there so I do know a little about its methods. It may surprise you, but kids are also expected to be silent in class there unless they have the floor.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #13)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:13 AM

16. "unless they have the floor". children at this school do not get to "have the floor". i doubt

 

children at sidwell are expected to eat silently and respond to behaviorist hand signals. nor to give behaviorist scripted responses as their only communication.

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #16)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:23 AM

22. Well, yes they do. They are asked questions by the teacher. That gives them the floor. They can also

ask questions, during which time they have the floor.

For the 10 year olds like the one profiled here, most (but not all) of the questions they are asked will be for specific fact- or skill-based answers. As they get older, the questions get more free-form and call for more independent thought and synthesis. (Again, assuming this is like the similar-sounding program a few towns over that my sister taught at.)

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Response to Recursion (Reply #22)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:29 AM

28. Let's compare:

 

Just to be clear, let's compare what students in the primary grades at sidwell do to what these kids do:

Here's a class at this school:

7:45 am Mr. Amaral escorts Carolina along with the rest of BU 5 silently to their homeroom/advisory. Carolina proceeds to her pre-assigned desk. Mr. Amaral gives a non-verbal cue for Carolina’s group to move to the back cubbies to get organized, and signals with his other hand that they have one minute to complete their cubby tasks. Carolina silently stands up and brings her backpack to her cubby, unzips it, and removes all of her binders.... and Carolina finished her cubby tasks in less than 60 seconds....

She begins reading her DEAR book, as the other students work for their minute time blocks to get their cubby work done. Mr. Amaral calls, “1-2-3 Eyes on me!” The class responds in unison, “1-2-3 Eyes on you!” and then proceeds to close their DEAR books and place them on the left corner of their desks.

Mr. Amaral uses the last few minutes of class to review the main objective for the lesson, give feedback to the class using DREAM Points, remind scholars to copy HW, and provide direction for transition. Mr. Amaral says, “Scholars, yesterday you transitioned to Reading in 38 seconds. Your challenge now is to transition in 35 seconds. I am waiting for 100% eye contact.Good. Go.” Scholars quickly and silently switch out binders from their rubber bands around their desk legs. Carolina and her peers absolutely enjoy being timed for tasks and being challenged to beat their best times.

Now sidwell:



Hey, the kids are standing around talking to each other...without a teacher directing them, not in line...

For more than 25 years, Lower School students have developed and written their own monthly Queries for consideration of the community. These questions reflect issues and concerns relevant to their own lives: friendship, fairness, peace, understanding, nature and environmental issues, celebrations, differences, conflict resolution, service, and the world around them. The following are examples for community consideration:

“How do we keep greed from growing in an ‘I want everything’ world?”
First Grade

“Do you have the courage to stand up to your friends when they are not being fair and just to others?”
Second Grade

“How can we learn to see and appreciate the beauty of everyday things around us?”
Third Grade

“In this new year, how can we make peace in our world, resist peer pressure, and not hurt others?”
Fourth Grade

Community service plays an important role in the Lower School experience...For several decades students have brought a vegetable to school on Wednesdays to help create soup for Martha’s Table, a Washington, D.C., soup kitchen. For this project two classes work side by side, often younger children paired with older children, and chop the donated vegetables...

Many other service activities are woven into the fabric of children’s lives at Lower School such as fourth graders sharing their love of books by becoming reading buddies with younger students at a D.C. public school, collecting nuts and seeds for reforestation of native trees, and working on environmental clean-ups of the Anacostia River. Opportunities for service within our own school community often include a day of planting bulbs and flowers, learning to compost soup vegetable cuttings, and helping sort campus recycling materials. Nurturing a sense of responsibility and care, as well as developing the habit of helping, grows from these acts of service.


Sounds to me like Obama's girls have class discussions and writing activities about issues, get to do meaningful activities, don't have to be silent unless mouthing a script, and don't spend their entire school day doing rote timed activities.

http://www.sidwell.edu/lower_school/academics/index.aspx

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #28)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:32 AM

30. Yes, the children of the 1% have all sorts of interesting questions...

...and I'd love to hear more about the thoughts on greed of a first grader whose parents are rich enough to pay $30K in tuition.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #30)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:42 AM

36. Irrelevant. The kids at sidwell friends aren't schooled like the students in the OP. Not at all.

 

Despite your specious claim that they too must be silent "unless they have the floor".

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Response to Recursion (Reply #22)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 02:06 PM

87. KINDERGARTNERS should have the opportunity for free-form answers calling for independent thought

and synthesis.

The idea that elementary students should be programmed into being little robots is sick.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #87)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 02:09 PM

88. Programming elementary school students into being little robots would be horrifying

I'm so glad that's not what's happening here!

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Response to Recursion (Reply #88)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 02:20 PM

92. That is what is happening here. The students are expected to give scripted replies

to scripted questions, and otherwise remain silent. They're just trying to turn them into quiet little machines.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #92)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 02:21 PM

93. You're acting like that's all that happens at the school

Like they don't have classes in which the teacher asks them questions and they ask the teacher questions.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #93)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 03:02 PM

97. is this your proposal or something? how do you know about classes they haven't described?

 

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #97)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 03:03 PM

98. Because as I repeatedly said my sister taught at a school like this

A few towns over, designed around the same theories. This is KIPP-lite stuff, and a lot of parents and students seem to like it. And if this freaks you out, don't even bother looking at an actual full-on KIPP school.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #98)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 03:11 PM

99. that school is not *this* school, & i'm quite aware of kipp, another prison school chain for black

 

kids.

you keep claiming you know what *this* school does -- you don't.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #4)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 02:03 PM

86. Learning to communicate WITH SPOKEN LANGUAGE is a huge part of what

children learn in school. Not every child has articulate parents who engage them in thoughtful discussions. Children need MORE practice speaking in school, not less.

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Response to HiPointDem (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 05:54 AM

2. Students respond with an enthusiastic, “Yes, I’m ready to learn today. I can’t wait to learn somethi

By paragraph two you've contradicted your title

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Response to Recursion (Reply #2)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 05:56 AM

3. "near-silence" = silence except for scripted answers to canned questions.

 

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #3)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:02 AM

5. Yep!

Tell us what we want to hear and everything is hunky dory.

The answer should be, "Yes, I'm ready to learn today, but if I smell bullshit I'll call you on it every time."

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #3)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:03 AM

8. So, she will spend 6 hours every school day for the next seven years...

... talking less than she does at home, during recess, and at lunch. Great. This sounds like a cool idea.

Also, if this is like the SLANT-ish school my sister taught at (which was in New Bedford rather than Fall River), as the students get older an increasing amount of classes are discussion sections and recitations (in the collegiate sense), neither of which are canned answers to canned questions.

What bothers you about this?

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Response to Recursion (Reply #8)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:05 AM

11. Let's ask bill gates if his kids are schooled like this. or eli broad's children.

 

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #11)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:20 AM

21. His kids go to an undisclosed private school, so I have no idea what their discipline system is

I'm also not remotely a fan of Bill Gates on education, incidentally.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #2)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:05 AM

10. How does this routine help concentration or critical thinking?


It's simply corporate America's fascist wet dream of what our kids should be like. Mindless worker drones, "heiling" their way into poverty, being content with it.

If I had kids, I wouldn't send them there even if you'd pay me.

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Response to Democracyinkind (Reply #10)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:12 AM

15. How does learning to be quiet and still help concentration? You're joking, right?

Learning to control your physical motions and sounds is exactly what preadolescents are actually learning in school; see Montessori on this.

Mindless worker drones, "heiling" their way into poverty, being content with it.

What bullshit. Critical thinking is pointless if you don't have a mastery of basic facts and skills underlying it. Who cares what I think about de Vaca's voyages if I don't know where and when they were?

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Response to Recursion (Reply #15)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:16 AM

18. You can learn to control your physical motions and sounds without making a 24/7 routine out of it.


What utter bullshit.

I mastered basic facts and skills without being told how to answer, when to talk, how to march, etc...

You're acting like this is a black and white issue. Shutting up on the way to school, in the bus, will not help "mastering basic facts and skills". It might help produce repressed republican assholes. As for enforcing a strict code of conduct in the class room, I am all for it. All else is just an attempt at social engineering that has nothing to do with "what is best for the kids"

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Response to Democracyinkind (Reply #18)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:19 AM

20. Did you even read the article? They aren't even silent all of the school day, let alone 24/7

They talk (in "inside voices") at lunch and they can do whatever they want to at recess. And once they get off the school bus they can do and say whatever the hell they want.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #20)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:23 AM

23. Yes I did.


The school tries to control their behavior, down to the very way that they greet the bus driver... You get on that bus, you're no longer a kid, or even a student. Just am mindless worker drone.

How very generous of the school to let them be kids once they got off the bus after school...

I think we've about established our different reactions to this story.

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Response to Democracyinkind (Reply #23)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:29 AM

27. Then why do you keep saying "24/7"

When they aren't even silent throughout the entire school day, let alone 24/7?

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Response to Recursion (Reply #27)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:34 AM

31. Not silent. Just controlled. "Inner voices"

They're not allowed to behave like children from the moment they get on the bus until the moment they get off of it.

It's not just about silence. It's about the amount of control this school wants to exercise over its students. I find it inappropriate for a school setting. Maybe fitting for a prison or a boot camp.

Again, I think we've about established our different reaction to this story.

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Response to Democracyinkind (Reply #31)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:35 AM

33. Inside voices is for lunch. They play during recess.

Nobody has ever played four-square with inside voices; you know that.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #33)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:41 AM

35. Glad to see that you would agree that extending these rules to recess would be over the top.


So we share some common ground. I find such rules over the top as far as they pertain to places outside of the class room. Which is not to say that I'm all Lord of the Flies when it comes to school premises and the ride on the bus. I just think there's a way more to the middle here.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #33)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:24 AM

45. you don't know what the hell they do at recess because the article doesn't mention recess.

 

recess & lunch are combined into a single 25-minute period, at least 5 minutes of which is silent. so the amount of 'recess' they get is certainly less than 20 minutes, and for all we know it could consist of a drilled march around the school, because nothing at all is said about it beyond this:

12:00-12:25: Lunch/Recess/HW Center

and the fact that students who don't complete the previous day's homework don't get recess.

That's it. You are just making stuff up because for whatever reason, you like this stuff.

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Response to Democracyinkind (Reply #31)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:28 AM

56. When did being rude, distracting and loud all of the time become

 

"acting like children"? I know when I was a kid there was a time that was permitted and times where I had to sit still and be quiet.

Adults are also allowed to "act like children" (i.e. being rude, distracting and loud ) but not all of the time. When I go to conferences, I sit quietly and listen unless I am the one presenting. Why in the world wouldn't we teach our kids that there is a time to sit still, concentrate, and learn from a person who knows more than us on a topic?

I spent 24+ years with a predefined greeting (salute) and yet I don't feel stunted or scarred at all for doing that.

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Response to AlexSatan (Reply #56)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:41 AM

69. read the article. if you think this school is about

stoppung rudeness then I can't help you. Speaking is surely a part of just being a kid, take that away and there's not much left. please read the article and reconsider your post in that context...

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Response to Democracyinkind (Reply #69)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 12:27 PM

73. And the kids are allowed to speak

 

at appropriate times. I wish more parents would teach their kids that these days. We certainly learned it.

Obviously the article is biased but even within it, it points out that the kids do speak in school--with each other and answering questions.

I guess I may be different than many on this thread in that, when I want to learn something, I do more listening than talking.

I like to listen. I have learned a great deal from listening carefully. Most people never listen.
Ernest Hemingway

“We have two ears and only one tongue in order that we may hear more and speak less. ”
Diogenes Laertius - Biographer Of The Greek Philosophers

“No man ever listened himself out of a job.”
Calvin Coolidge (1872-1933);
30th Us President

Listen to many, speak to a few.
William Shakespeare

Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen.
Winston Churchill

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Response to AlexSatan (Reply #73)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 12:35 PM

74. You must not have read the same article as me, also, it's not just about the silence, but just as


much about creepy speech codes and pre-prepared answers. And no, you're not that different from everyone else in this thread. Everyone that posts here agree that school shouldn't be a free for all ruckus range, all agree that silence and respect at the right time and the right place is necessary. It's just that most seem to think that this school is taking it fascistly over the top.

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Response to Democracyinkind (Reply #74)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 12:49 PM

77. First

 

the article is biased enough that i don't know if they really have many prepared responses or if it is, whether it is something specific individuals do.

Second, we have "creepy speech codes" in our society all over the place. What do most people say when they encounter someone they know? What do most people say when they are given something?

Universities and sports teams have "creepy speech codes" with a call-response format.. where a leader says something and people respond with a set answer.

Heck I even remember a guy recently doing it with "Fired up! Ready to Go!". Was that creepy?

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Response to AlexSatan (Reply #77)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 12:55 PM

80. Fine. Then DU has at least one person who'll send his kids there...

Hooray for charter schools!

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Response to Democracyinkind (Reply #80)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:00 PM

81. You dodged the question

 

Was it creepy when Obama did it?

And no, my kids go to public school--and we supplement their education where the school is lacking.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #20)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:00 AM

40. They talk at lunch if a staff member allows them to move to 'level 2' as a reward for being

 

sufficiently silent during the first 5 minutes of lunch. For breakfast they must be silent except for programmed cheers and chants.

The article doesn't talk about recess at all, so not sure how you know that.

The only mention of recess in the original document is:

12:00-12:25: Lunch/recess/hw center

Apparently the "recess" is combined with the lunch, So you have to eat and have 'recess' in the same 25 minutes, at least 5 minutes of which is silent.

Students who didn't complete required homework must go to homework center during this time.

There are two PE classes a week.

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #40)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:10 AM

42. It's even worse than I've first thought... unbelievable

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Response to Democracyinkind (Reply #42)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:28 AM

46. Here's the schedule, from the original document:

 

12:00-12:25: Lunch/Recess/HW Center

The first 5 minutes are silent. The kids who didn't do their homework don't get recess, but must complete the period at HW center.

So it looks like the 'good' kids get maybe 10-15 minutes of 'recess'. That poster has no idea whether they 'play' or march around the school in military formation, because neither the article nor the original document address this.

She's just making it up.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #2)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 02:10 PM

89. "Enthusiastic." You honestly believe that these little robots are enthusiastic?

Because they're compliant?

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Response to HiPointDem (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:02 AM

6. Just trying to make good little Germans, er, Merikans.

Don't question, don't ask, just listen.

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Response to HiPointDem (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:24 AM

24. Once again illustrating the advantages of being a charter school.

Don't follow our BS? Find another school. Try that with a "failing" public school that is mandated to educate EVERYONE.

I guess that school is decent preparation for how the 1%'ers want the labor force to respond at least.

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Response to Pholus (Reply #24)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:25 AM

25. How else would they learn facts??!!!!


"I guess that school is decent preparation for how the 1%'ers want the labor force to respond at least. "

Exactly.

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Response to HiPointDem (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:49 AM

37. BTW I didn't know Foxconn was starting manufacturing training in America yet. nt

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Response to HiPointDem (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:50 AM

38. Whew, this is just weird.

I'm a college professor, and this unsettles me. I get the discipline and structure. But these students appear very robotic, programmed. Very weird.

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Response to a la izquierda (Reply #38)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:01 AM

41. It's fairly common for charters. Especially charters for the poor and black.

 

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Response to a la izquierda (Reply #38)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:32 AM

57. Did you get that from the picture or her genuinely smiling

 

or from her thinking about and answering questions without being interrupted?

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Response to AlexSatan (Reply #57)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 12:48 PM

76. lol. that's a model. it's a hypothetical kid in a school that is in the proposal stage.

 

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #76)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 12:55 PM

79. Prove this claim

 

The caption on the picture says it is her.

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Response to AlexSatan (Reply #79)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 02:12 PM

90. When you were a kid, didn't you learn to smile for the camera?

Most of the 99% do, especially girls. The smiling photo means absolutely nothing, whether or not the girl is a real student.

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Response to AlexSatan (Reply #79)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 02:24 PM

94. read the text.

 

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #94)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 02:48 PM

95. This text?

 

Little Carolina is college bound, but to realize her dreams she must spend the next seven years at a college prep charter—in near complete silence.

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Response to AlexSatan (Reply #95)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 02:55 PM

96. read a little further...

 

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #96)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 03:43 PM

101. Are you positive she doesn't exist?

 

The schedule they itemized could easily be modeled after a real student.

That is why I asked for proof.

Still waiting.

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Response to AlexSatan (Reply #101)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 03:48 PM

102. that girl exists, but she's not a student at this school. because this is a proposal for a charter

 

school. the school hasn't been established yet.

the schedule is an example of a 'typical' day at the proposed school. you can check the original document.

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #102)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 04:31 PM

105. Fair enough

 

You win. I missed that

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Response to AlexSatan (Reply #57)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:40 PM

84. Give me a break, okay?

I work with the products of elite prep schools and regular public schools, and my students can think, socialize, and analyze without their entire lives being micromanaged. In fact, my worst, most needy students are precisely the ones that schools like is create: completely unable to do anything without some kind of approval; grade-hogs; OCD about everything.

And, by the way, I have 13 nieces and nephews who've all gone to regular public schools who are polite, well-behaved, smart children.

But I guess I don't know what I'm talking about, Satan. Cute name.

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Response to a la izquierda (Reply #84)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 03:41 PM

100. Great

 

I taught and advised the products of elite prep schools, regular public schools and home-schoolers and I saw a wide variety of ability to think, socialize, and analyze from each source. The acceptance rate where I taught was 11%.

A lot of the kids from the public schools had to go through remedial math and English.

So, you were kind of vague. The "needy" kids--are you sure they were from schools like this or are you assuming? In my experience, I saw needy kids from both public and private schools (not so much the home-schoolers, surprisingly).

I found that most students wanted more structure. They wanted to know which assignments were due when, exactly how much of their grade it was worth and what the criteria to meet the grades were. And they obviously prefer you stick to the time-table on the syllabus. That way they could plan and prioritize. If you did that, you could actually teach them a lot more. For example, in one course I took over, I added 40% more material to it. The course reviews went from being in the bottom of the department to just above the middle and the average score on the final exam rose 7%.

All of that was possible just by adding structure.

But I guess I don't know what I'm talking about either.

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Response to HiPointDem (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:53 AM

39. du rec. nt

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Response to HiPointDem (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:15 AM

43. I don't know what to think about this. It goes too far. I wouldn't want a child of mind in that

regimented an atmosphere. OTOH, I volunteered as a tutor once or twice at a modern elementary school, and I was struck by the loudness of it, the constant chatter and nervous movement of all the students, the chaos. Very different from when I was a child. So I DO think there is a noise factor that this school is trying to address. You can't concentrate on a fiction story, or your grammar lesson, if you are surrounded by 30 students who are all talking simultaneously. The noise alone is disconcerting.

And the bus....the way kids behave on a bus does seem to have gotten out of control in recent years. So I can understand trying to reign that in. It is a good way to protect the weaker and smaller kids, for example. You won't find any bullying on that school's buses.

Still, it has gone too far. I remember riding the bus as a child, and we would actually all sing! It was comaraderie. We had fun. We were not misbehaving. We were expressing our happy selves, being children, being creative. The poor bus driver.

Part of learning is open discussion and free expression of ideas. How would that be possible in this strict environment? OTOH, military schools are like this, I imagine. As are hoity toity girls boarding schools. It's a disciplined environment.

Gilda Radner came from a cloistured girls school. So maybe creativity can come from a strict environment.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #43)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:38 AM

47. Perhaps your perceptions have changed since you were a child?

You perceived school as being quiet when you were a child, now you perceive today's children as constantly talking and moving in school.

Talking and moving children bother a lot of adults, I notice this particularly because kids don't bother me and I see other adults such as my brother who are really irritated by it. The real irony with my brother is that he is the main reason kids don't bother me, after growing up with a seriously ADD sibling nothing someone else's child can do is remotely as annoying as he was every day of my younger life.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #47)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:46 AM

49. Not at all. School wasn't quiet when I was a child. But we were required NOT to speak during class..

except for open discussions, guided and regulated by the teachers. We could talk in the halls and on the bus. But if I had been trying to listen to a teacher, I wouldn't have been able to, if the kids around me had been having conversations with each other.

But the school I tutored at...and it was just a couple of times...the teachers seemed to have no control over the students. Not only was the class I was in extremely noisy....the teacher at front of the class was speaking, while all the students were having conversation with each other, some were listening to the teacher, and a couple would even get up and go to talk to other kids. Other classes in the school were the same way. We could hear the noise from nearby classes coming into our classroom. It was not an environment conducive to learning the subjects or learning how to behave at all. And the noise level at times was akin to being at a rock concert.

So I can see trying to get a handle on that. Kids left to their own devices can get very unruly and loud. They have to be guided on how to behave in a learning environment, and in public generally. They aren't born knowing. They have to be taught these things. OTOH, kids should be free to express themselves, chat with friends, make harmless jokes, sing a song with friends. But maybe that's what extracurricular activities are for.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #49)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:07 AM

53. I have three grandkids and I'm in their schools fairly regularly

Kids don't seem all that different today than back when I was in school. In fact I told one of their teachers a few years ago that she must be a Jedi because she had the mind trick down cold, the kids were amazingly well behaved and the teacher was remarkably nice.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #53)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:18 PM

109. Maybe it was just the school where I went. It's disadvantaged, which was why there were

volunteer tutors.

I didn't have to wonder why they needed special tutoring; no one could have learned much in that environment. Nice little kids, though. Cute and polite. Just NOISY and fidgety.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #43)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:36 AM

59. My kids would have loved it

 

All of the noise and distractions and people "secretly" texting while they were trying to learn drove them nuts.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #43)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 02:15 PM

91. I went to a school similar to Radner's. And it was nothing like this school.

Students were encouraged to speak and to think, not be little robots.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #91)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:18 AM

112. Well, it was a girl's school. So there's one noise factor not present. nt

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #112)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:58 PM

115. And it wasn't overcrowded. Overcrowded classes are too noisy

and teachers don't have time to give students individual attention.

So someone comes up with a school like this as a solution. But it's no substitute for a good school with small classes where students can really learn.

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Response to HiPointDem (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:22 AM

44. I was allowed more freedom in basic training than this.

This is conditioning to turn out obedient serfs.

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Response to hobbit709 (Reply #44)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 07:38 AM

48. Sir, yes sir! n/t

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Response to hobbit709 (Reply #44)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:35 AM

58. Coast Guard or merchant marines? NT

 

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Response to AlexSatan (Reply #58)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:11 AM

62. Air Farce 70-73

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Response to hobbit709 (Reply #62)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:16 AM

63. Things must have gotten a lot tougher in the 80's then

 

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Response to AlexSatan (Reply #63)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:29 AM

65. At least we were allowed to have conversations in the mess hall.

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Response to hobbit709 (Reply #65)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:36 AM

67. We weren't

 

There was cadre at every table watching decorum, and there were 5 basic responses.

Yes (sir/ma'am)
No (sir/ma'am)
(sir/ma'am) I do not know
(sir/ma'am) May I make a statement?
(sir/ma'am) May I ask a question?

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Response to HiPointDem (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:22 AM

50. I can finally articulate why this is a pathetically stupid idea. It's not the silence...

Actually, the silence and discipline isn't even the main problem here. It is the coercion of "enthusiastic" responses which would be the dream of every Pointy Haired Boss if only it could be a term of employment for them as well. Well, with the proliferation of "right to work" legislation, I guess that's just around the corner too.

In the article I see interactions requiring a forced, cookie cutter market-speak which will remove all pretence of honest discourse from the student-teacher relationship. It does not appear to allow for the possibility of a non-peak day. It builds a wall as the teacher hides behind formality and rote routine. It disconnects the student as their own feelings (if not in line with corporate goals) must be suppressed. It is also the kind of absolutism that will breed cynicism if it is not coupled with absolute success and it is not clear that the prerequisites for that are there.

I suppose at some point, the dear leader (excuse me, the "Executive Director") will mandate that the students must express themselves with 37 pieces of flair subject to administration approval, and Mike Judge's version of reality will be validated.

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Response to Pholus (Reply #50)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:41 AM

51. That also bothers me more than the silence.

When I was a kid, we weren't supposed to talk in the halls and there wasn't much talking tolerated in class, either, unless it was related to the lesson. I didn't feel like it was thought-control though; it was a school in a rapidly expanding neighborhood and it was overcrowded. I can remember sitting in large rooms that were supposed to hold two classes that had actually been subdivided into four. You pretty much had to be silent a lot of the time or you couldn't hear what was going on.

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Response to Pholus (Reply #50)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:50 AM

52. I agree with you completely.

It's not the silence or the dicipline, I would have LOVED that when I was in school, it's the creepy canned answers that disturbs me, it's positively Stalinist.

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Response to Pholus (Reply #50)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:51 AM

55. +1.

 

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Response to Pholus (Reply #50)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:37 AM

60. Did you ever consider that coercion isn't necessary

 

and maybe those kids love that environment? Not all kids would, but a lot would.

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Response to AlexSatan (Reply #60)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:29 AM

64. Yeah, the ones who would make horrendous bosses, execrable co-workers and lying subordinates

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #64)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:32 AM

66. wow. Safe to say you have never worked with professionals

 

I've spent most of my career working with highly educated, motivated people. And they (and I) were enthusiastic about their jobs as well as about learning.

I pity you.

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Response to AlexSatan (Reply #66)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:49 AM

71. Someone who has been trained only to say what others wish to hear is useless

Useless as a superior, useless as an equal and useless as a subordinate.

The Romney campaign was packed with "professionals" of that sort, how did it work out for them?



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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #71)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 12:16 PM

72. Wrong

 

In AF Basic training there are 5 basic responses. That is what trainers expect to hear. It forces the basics to really think to see if what they have to say is of value enough to deviate from that.

If you have ever taught, you would know that kids like to hear themselves and will say all sorts of things that are completely irrelevant to the topic. For those who are very shy, it allows them to interact without the pressure of having to think on their feet while working to overcome their shyness. (I've got one child like that)

Obviously, as the article shows (and it was a very biased article so you have to take it with a grain of salt), the teachers ask for independent responses and demand the other students show respect when the student is answering.

Obviously the superior (the person in charge) does not say just what others wish to hear except in greeting (just as it is standard practice for most people to greet with "Hello" or "How are you doing"). And as the students grow and learn, their input and analysis is more valuable.

Are those who greet with "Hello" useless?

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Response to AlexSatan (Reply #72)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 12:38 PM

75. Primary school is not and should not be boot camp and children are not slaves

As an inactive Marine, a father and grandfather this school reminds me of my own father's schooling which he loathed and could explain why in seven languages, irony intended.



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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #75)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 12:51 PM

78. Learning methods are learning methods

 

If it is working and the kids like it, who are you to poo-poo it?

Sounds like the kids like it just fine but just that the author doesn't. Fortunately, the author does not attend there.

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Response to AlexSatan (Reply #78)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:07 PM

82. You have your kids in a school like this?

I pity them.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #82)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:13 PM

83. Nope, but I would for two of them

 

assuming the academics and teaching is strong. The third might not have thrived in it.

They get frustrated with the current lack of discipline or structure in their school. And they were that way even in elementary school. We even home-schooled one of them for a year because she begged and wanted to skip a grade to get away from the "booger-picker and flickers". Moving up a grade helped some but she was still frustrated by their lack of focus.

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Response to AlexSatan (Reply #78)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 04:48 PM

106. The amount of degrees between the Socratic Method to a mere Pavlovian response

"Learning methods are learning methods..."
The amount of degrees between the Socratic Method to a mere Pavlovian response renders that statement vague enough to sound clever, yet hold no fundamental or relevant weight.

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #106)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 05:10 PM

108. Sigh

 

OK so make it "Since the teaching method has proven effective across a large range of learning styles over decades of use, there is no reason to believe is would not work for the cohort at this school as well".
Better?

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Response to AlexSatan (Reply #78)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:27 PM

111. If you'd read the article you'd know these are "would-be" children in a "proposed" new school.


They don't "like it just fine" cause they don't exist yet.

BTW, did you know in theoryland it rains jelly donuts every day?

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Response to Pholus (Reply #111)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 01:33 PM

113. So then how do they seem like "robots"? NT

 

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Response to AlexSatan (Reply #113)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:49 PM

117. The arrogance of filling in the child's responses that way is either


1) Wishful thinking that all will come up roses because they're too smart to suck

2) Expectations that they will force students to blow sunshine up their asses

I'll go with #2, corporations are ALWAYS about image over substance.
Their more staunch apologists say its because they have a fiduciary
responsibility to make money for shareholders and that overrides all
other considerations (especially things like morals, ethics, regulations
and the tax codes).

Of course, that is ALSO the prime reason that I say Educorps are incapable
of actually solving anything and represents the general failure of privitization
in general. They hardly do a more efficient job, they do a shitty minimalist job
to ensure a profit goes to their 1%'er owners.

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Response to Pholus (Reply #117)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:05 PM

118. It is a greeting

 

Just as "Hello" is a standard greeting.

The other is a motivational call-response just like Obama did on the campaign trail. Just as they have at school pep rallies and sports events.

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Response to AlexSatan (Reply #118)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:08 PM

119. So what do YOU think should be done if the kid doesn't respond appropriately?

Should there be a consequence?

Is it more important to learn or to provide feedback for your obviously insecure teachers that they are doing a "great" job?

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Response to Pholus (Reply #119)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:18 PM

120. Sure there should be a consequence

 

The teacher would should inquire further with the kid to see if everything is Ok and if there is anything the teacher can do to help.

Obviously no punishment though.

I find it interesting that you think Obama did his call-response on the campaign trail not to help motivate the crowd but because he was insecure and needed reassured.

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Response to AlexSatan (Reply #120)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 12:03 AM

122. As you just demonstrated, substandard education has consequences.

For example, putting words in someone's mouth as a debate tactic.

You tried to bring this little false equivalence in post 118 with the comment that the call-response thing is used on the campaign trail, at pep rallies and sporting events. Apparently you didn't see how you undermined your own position by only citing example events where the information transfer is ONE WAY and does not require honest interaction. Being brutal with your mistake I guess I would have commented that if you found the two types of events similar in any way means you are subscribing to the overly simplistic (educorp) views of education where a list of "facts" must go from teacher to student without considering that it might help if the communication channels are two-way.

Now I've been figuring you don't want to hit my post #110 head on cause here you are trying to score points on this side thread so I thought I'd remind you I haven't forgotten about my main problem with putting on the fake happy face for the teachers. So in post #119 I decided to remind you that my problem with this is that scripted responses replace honesty. To intentionally show you that I will not enter into your false equivalency I specifically restricted my second sentence by using the word "teacher" to show that I am focused on education, not your goofball sideshow.

So then we come to your post #120 where you make pretty much the best counterargument you could have made ("a nonstandard response should lead to questions about well being") and then shoot yourself in the foot twice in rapid succession:

1) making the call-response thing optional for the students ("Obviously no punishment" -- so really, the student doesn't have to respond then? Why wouldn't they say those responses are optional in the proposal then?)

2) being deliberately obtuse to ineffectively try to elicit an emotional response. See, I never mentioned the President at all in Post #119 because of the above discussion. Plus, it was peripheral to my actual point which is that these student responses are coercive by design.

To make your little "interesting" observation you had to deliberately misinterpret #119 by ignoring my restrictive case "teacher" and by lying that I even gave your load-o-crap any purchase at all.

So you seem to be interested in building a strawman where I am insulting the President. I obviously am not, and I question your motivations in doing so.

Fail.

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Response to Pholus (Reply #122)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 12:48 AM

123. If you had bothered reading the article

 

Information did go both ways during actual class time. The call-response happened as the kids were entering and getting ready for school. As in the campaign, it was for motivational purposes. As in the campaign, it was not meant for information exchange. If you know anything about communications, if you already know what the result is, no information is being exchanged.

So your strawman of education communication only going one way is a sad, droopy strawman. But yes, the vast majority of information SHOULD go one way. Otherwise, you kind of missed the point of having a teacher.

As for having "fake" happy faces, you must not know much about human psychology. Just as people react and often change their behavior depending on the clothes they are wearing, the same is true about having to have a good attitude. When people ask you how you are doing, do you start spilling your woes? I hope not. On the other hand, if it is part of the expectations of your jobs to be upbeat, most people actually absorb some of the fakeness and it results in them being happier. And sometimes "at work" you have to fake it. Welcome to real life. In my job as a teacher, I didn't let my personal problems bleed into my performance at work. It would help the students zero (or negatively) if I was grumpy or depressed. The show had to go on.

As for the "gotchas" you think you found

1) They didn't say those responses were mandatory did they? Nope. And a non-response is still a response and would warrant further investigation into the cause.

2) You ignored the response about the President because you knew it went contrary to your position. So of course you didn't mention it in 119. BTW, the President was equally coercive in his persistence at getting a response. Watch the video and see it took a few times for the crowd to catch on and comply. And I didn't misinterpret 119, I simply applied it to a very similar situation to help you see that the call-response is meant to motivate. You ignoring it in 117 showed you were intentionally trying to make it go away.

I used the president example to show you that if you don't think the President doing call-response to his audience then you can't think teachers doing it for their audience is. unless you are illogical and inconsistent that is.

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Response to AlexSatan (Reply #123)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 01:07 AM

124. Wow, I can feel those hot tears of shame hitting your screen from over here!

You wanted a certain outcome (To say I'm insulting the president by calling him insecure) and you FAKED IT to make that happen. You can backtrack and try to call it "an example" retroactively but your last sentence in post 120 says what it says -- a statement NOT backed up by a single thing I said except in some pretzel logic inside your head.

You can cry about it, and try to weasel out of it, but the transcript history makes it plain. You LIED.

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Response to Pholus (Reply #124)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 01:19 AM

125. Talk about a lack of education.

 

You do not know the difference between a lie and an assumption.

Had you stated that you DIDN'T think Obama did his call-response on the campaign trail not to help motivate the crowd but because he was insecure and needed reassured?

Nope, you dodged and didn't address it. However, you did say "to provide feedback for your obviously insecure teachers that they are doing a "great" job?" so one can only conclude that you believed that people who did the call-response did so because they were insecure and wanted feedback.

Since you had never stated you opinion on the President, how could I know what the truth was in order to say the opposite (a lie)?

So next time, please look up big words like "LIED" before using them if you do not know what they mean.

SO, let's be direct, why do you think the teachers are insecure and wanting feedback they are doing a good job by using call-response but don't think that is the case when the President is doing it?

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Response to AlexSatan (Reply #125)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 01:22 AM

127. Oh, so I said it because I didn't say it explicitly. Gotcha....

Dig, dig, dig that hole a little deeper. I'm actually quite amused by the descent.

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Response to AlexSatan (Reply #125)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 01:28 AM

128. Oh, now I did explicitly state this once but apparently you only hear things I didn't say.

I expect teachers in schools, not cheerleaders. And I was wrong. I shouldn't insult the teachers, it's the brain-dead owners of this wretched experiment who would be responsible. They have egos that are sooooo fragile that they design a system where they have student sycophants built right in. Give me an overworked public school teacher any day of the week.

By contrast I expect cheerleaders at political events.

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Response to Pholus (Reply #128)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 01:34 AM

129. Then you not only

 

would not make a good teacher, you apparently are confused about what it takes to lead a country well.

Zoinks.

Regarding your other post, yes, it is sad that you do not know that a logical assumption based on related data is.

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Response to AlexSatan (Reply #129)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 02:00 AM

131. Ahhhh, yes I guess I didn't explicitly say what my reviews actually say.

So assume away (and make an ass outta u too -- thanks 8th grade shop teacher for teaching me that one). Needless to say, you'd be pathetically wrong again but that is pretty much par for our entire exchange tonight.

But I've learned something world-changing from you tonight -- it's what you don't say that is more important than what you say. Because that gives us the freedom to make up whatever batshit crazy stuff we want to say because, well, it isn't a lie if technically you don't know what the truth is.

You should be careful with those Holocaust denial thoughts you didn't explicitly render an opinion on -- it's pretty twisted stuff and might offend people. (Wow, I take it all back. Your way of looking at the world is simply GENIUS!)

Anyway, time to do some serious work. But thanks for the timewasting funnies.

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Response to Pholus (Reply #131)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 02:03 AM

132. And now you got me reinterpreting Richilieu

"If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him." is now appended with "Based on what he DIDN'T say."

Simply Genius, man.

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Response to Pholus (Reply #131)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 12:10 PM

134. Twist and spin all you want

 

but I gave you the logical reasoning why I made the assumption.

Do I need to repeat it?

You did, however, continue to dodge the question I asked that could have helped clear this all up:
SO, let's be direct, why do you think the teachers are insecure and wanting feedback they are doing a good job by using call-response but don't think that is the case when the President is doing it?

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Response to AlexSatan (Reply #134)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 03:45 PM

135. Dude, this thing was over LONG ago and you lost.


All I have to point out is that you lied about what I said:

"I find it interesting that you think Obama did his call-response on the campaign trail not to help motivate the crowd but because he was insecure and needed reassured."

and after being called on your bullshit you prevaricated -- neatly admitting that yes, you did lie but calling a completely made up statement a lie is too strong or something.

"Since you had never stated you opinion on the President, how could I know what the truth was in order to say the opposite (a lie)?"

To stop "dodging" your question would require me to accept to your flawed assertion that pep rallies and education are somehow alike. I do not so -- sadly -- your wishes for enlightenment will go unfulfilled.

Heaven help the kids that this corporate jackass would ruin our children with their moronic, stupid, crystal-wearing self-affirmation bullshit plan. But I guess on the wages that educorps pay they don't actually pay for talent so, like McD's they would have depend on preprogrammed play cards where the workers in the classroom have no opportunity to deviate from the original idiotic course dreamed up after a night of drunken excesses by their 1%'er betters.

'Nuff said.


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Response to Pholus (Reply #135)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 03:57 PM

136. This is so sad.

 

An adult who doesn't even know the difference between a lie and an assumption. How can I lie about something If I don't know that actual answer? (You were too chicken to answer so I would know the actual answer of what you believed, remember?)

See, and it is pretty clear you didn't read the article. The call-response was not during education. It was BEFORE the education to try to help motivate (a mini pep rally each morning). No matter how you keep trying to spin it, you are dodging because you know you cannot address it without looking even more the fool.

Guess I'll have to ask again

SO, let's be direct, why do you think the teachers are insecure and wanting feedback they are doing a good job by using call-response but don't think that is the case when the President is doing it?

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Response to AlexSatan (Reply #60)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:21 PM

110. No, I KNOW it isn't necessary. But your educorp doesn't get that it's better if it is spontaneous.


So old Mrs. Medeiros asks each student if they are ready to learn today. Students are supposed to respond with an enthusiastic, “Yes, I’m ready to learn today. I can’t wait to learn something new...!”

Little Johnny'd last like 10 seconds past the initial question when he honestly says:

"You know, I'm kinda feeling blah today. I'd rather just chill out and see what comes my way."

Try arguing for one second with a straight face that old Mrs. Medeiros wouldn't send him packing down to Ms. Pavao who would subsequently write nasty notes in his file and then call his parents and tell them that their child has a massive attitude problem and needs to turn that frown upside down UNDER PENALTY OF EXPULSION.

There is no room in this crappy model for even a moment of honesty. But our corporate educational overlords haven't shown a history of honesty so I can't imagine that they actually want it from their serfs either.

So let's just act HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY!

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Response to Pholus (Reply #50)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:41 AM

61. The forced "pep rallies" that Walmart workers attend come to mind.

ugh

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Response to Pholus (Reply #50)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:39 AM

68. +100000 The creepy chanting is what got to me when I read the OP

I read through all the responses and was surprised nobody else noticed the creepy robot responses and then I found your post. I completely agree.

Honestly, its got an Orwellian "1984" vibe....

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Response to HiPointDem (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 09:46 AM

54. *Sigh*

Anyone who doesn't see a problem with this kind of educational philosophy needs to recharge their crap detector.

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Response to Music Man (Reply #54)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:46 AM

70. Hey, if it's good enough for Paris Island...

*sigh* seconded.

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Response to Democracyinkind (Reply #70)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:58 PM

85. And most of the attendees there couldn't wait to escape it.

Boot Camp regime and discipline, every day, for as long as you're in.

Even the service branches realize that doesn't work.

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Response to Democracyinkind (Reply #70)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:42 PM

121. That's *Parris* Island.

I know, because I was there. And this thread is giving me flashbacks.

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Response to Brigid (Reply #121)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 05:48 AM

133. It shows that I never read, but only heard the name in movies, doesn't it?


Come to think of it, "Paris Island" does sound a bit too romantic, considering.

I've got the greatest respect for anyone who survived that

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Response to HiPointDem (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 03:51 PM

103. Mass-brainwashing. n/t

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Response to HiPointDem (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 04:03 PM

104. A disciplined classroom is one thing.

This is just creepy on an epic level. The "hand signals," the robotized responses. This is a school designed to turn kids into fking Borg drones. Frightening. And yes, I read the article at the link.

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Response to HiPointDem (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 05:05 PM

107. The canned responses and greetings are what creep me out

It reminds me of what I've read about North Korea.

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Response to HiPointDem (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:02 PM

114. But what about socialization?

They ask the homeschoolers all the time...

Doesn't sound like much "socialization" going on there, does it?

Unless "shut up and don't say a word all day" is now socialization?



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Response to HiPointDem (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:12 PM

116. Creepy and extremely disturbing.

There's a lot of creepy authoritarianism being implemented these days. The focus on children should set off some serious alarms about the people we are allowing to buy this country.

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Response to HiPointDem (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2012, 01:45 AM

130. Sounds like they're a lot less interested in learning...

...than in "proper behavior." In other words, the average public school writ larger-than-life.

As far as I'm concerned, a Trappist code of silence works fine for dedicated adult monks at an abbey, but not at all for young pupils, unless the only subject being taught is "obedience."

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