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Wed Dec 12, 2012, 05:34 PM

 

Holiday message: Atheists dub Jesus a 'myth' on Times Square billboard

Keep the MERRY, Dump the MYTH



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Reply Holiday message: Atheists dub Jesus a 'myth' on Times Square billboard (Original post)
DaniDubois Dec 2012 OP
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Response to DaniDubois (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 05:48 PM

1. Here's one of the best things I saw on Facebook:

Christianity: Sending telepathic messages to a Jewish ghost letting him know that you will accept him as your master and ask him to remove a magical curse that was passed down to you because an old woman that was made from the rib of her partner ate a piece of magical fruit from a magical tree because a talking snake told her to.

As me again why I'm an atheist?

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Response to Zoeisright (Reply #1)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 05:51 PM

2. That sums up nicely...

What I've not been able to put into words myself.

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Response to Zoeisright (Reply #1)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 05:53 PM

3. Come on, it all makes perfect sense

if you don't actually think about it.

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Response to Arugula Latte (Reply #3)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 09:01 PM

68. I was religious when I was younger

until I gave a lot of thought to it!

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Response to marlakay (Reply #68)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:50 AM

327. hrmm...

Even Einstein believed in some sort of a higher power, I guess he just didn't think about it enough.

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Response to Zoeisright (Reply #1)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 05:54 PM

4. Zombie.

He's a zombie, not a ghost.

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Response to DireStrike (Reply #4)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 08:10 PM

40. Technically, he's a lich



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Response to pokerfan (Reply #40)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 08:16 PM

45. Very educational!

Thank you.

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Response to pokerfan (Reply #40)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 09:06 PM

71. Bloody brilliant n/t

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Response to pokerfan (Reply #40)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 04:07 AM

126. Someone that understands undead.

 

Beautiful.

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Response to MrSlayer (Reply #126)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 11:23 AM

172. Each of the undead is special in his or her own way

A good thing to keep in mind this holiday season.

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Response to pokerfan (Reply #40)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 02:38 PM

223. So basically he was Voldemort?

Or someone very like Voldemort?

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Response to hifiguy (Reply #223)


Response to backscatter712 (Reply #227)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 04:34 PM

248. J.K. Rowlng's take on a traditional lich's phylactery

I'm not sure why she changed the name, because the general concept is the same.

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Response to white_wolf (Reply #248)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 05:23 PM

255. I know what a Horcrux is, I was just wondering what Jesus would use as a Horcrux.

Voldemort had Riddle's Diary, Gaunt's Ring, Slytherin's Locket, Hufflepuff's Cup, Ravenclaw's Diadem, Nagini, and of course the unintentional Horcrux, Harry Potter.

What would Jesus use?

The Last Supper cup (aka the Holy Grail?)

The Spear of Longinus?

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #255)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 05:24 PM

256. Hmm maybe a part of the cross?

Either that or the Holy Grail would be my best guess.

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Response to white_wolf (Reply #256)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 05:40 PM

259. D'oh! I self-deleted the wrong post!

I thought at the time I replied to the wrong post.

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Response to white_wolf (Reply #256)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 12:50 AM

285. The nails would be good!

Though IIRC, one of the nails allegedly was integrated into the Spear of Destiny, aka the Lance of Longinus.

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Response to hifiguy (Reply #223)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 02:46 PM

229. Voldermort was loosely based off the concept of a lich.

J.K. Rowling changed the terms around. Substituting the older term of Phylactery which was a device a lich used to store it's sole for her term of Horcrux. Is it clear I spend way too much time on this stuff?

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Response to white_wolf (Reply #229)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 04:08 PM

244. Wikipedia has a lich list

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fictional_liches

Yesterday, I didn't even know what a lich was; today I'm an expert.

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Response to DireStrike (Reply #4)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 10:48 PM

92. No. Zombies eat people.

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Response to musical_soul (Reply #92)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 05:35 PM

257. And Xians eat the (symbolic) body & blood of Jeebus.

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Response to stopbush (Reply #257)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:26 AM

323. inaccurate

They don't all practice communion, only certain denominations do. That's like saying all Muslims are Sunni, not even close to being true. This is why it pays to have some education on the things you claim that you don't care about; but, seem to have an uncontrollable urge to make fun of all of the time.

I had a science teacher who use to make fun of Star Trek all of the time; but, all the things he remarked about as being implausible, either exist now or are popular theories in modern science. I bet he retired from comedy.

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Response to Zoeisright (Reply #1)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 06:39 PM

5. It makes you wonder doesn't it? I can't wrap my head around it, but know many who do and

 

They're not very pleased with this advertisement.

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Response to Zoeisright (Reply #1)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 07:01 PM

7. Freaking Perfect

Thanks for that

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Response to Zoeisright (Reply #1)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 07:38 PM

21. so much women-hating in old religions.

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Response to Zoeisright (Reply #1)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 08:16 PM

44. Love it!

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Response to Zoeisright (Reply #1)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 09:34 PM

83. +1000000

 

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Response to Zoeisright (Reply #1)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 11:21 AM

169. That's perfect!

Lol!

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Response to Zoeisright (Reply #1)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 04:37 AM

331. Just copied and pasted (with light editing) for my FB timeline. Many

 

thanks (and Season's Greetings).

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Response to DaniDubois (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 06:59 PM

6. So keep the commercial and dump the spiritual

 

I guess that serves Wall Street.

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Response to GiaGiovanni (Reply #6)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 07:04 PM

8. Sounds rather Republican, doesn't it?

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Response to cordelia (Reply #8)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 07:10 PM

9. It sounds very corporate-facist, actually

 

Santa Claus serves the corporations by giving a reason for frenzied, underpaid citizens to spend more than they have on corporate junk.

Those whose Christmas is truly spiritual have no need of corporations, and the stockholders can't have that.

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Response to GiaGiovanni (Reply #9)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 07:46 PM

265. So, if Santa didn''t exist, there wouldn't be a reason to buy presents for lived ones?

Santa is a result, not a cause. Lighten up.

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #265)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 08:12 PM

266. Without Santa Claus mythology, there would be no reason for kids to have unreasonable expectations

 

While Santa may have started as a real saint (St. Nicholas) or an old Europe folk figure who gave out fruits or small gifts (Father Christmas, Sinterklaas), the American Santa Claus has become the symbol of consumerism run rampant. Holiday greed becomes "good" greed as children are encouraged to ask for more than they possibly can use (or than their parents can afford) since "Santa Claus" will be paying the tab. Parents who can't (or won't) deliver the goods risk having their children feel rejected by this great mythological creature, who gave expensive video games to their friends but not to them.

There is a reason that the retail sector relies on the semiotics of Santa Claus. Santa Claus appeals to children and makes their greed OK. Parents do not want to risk their children's sadness at being slighted by Santa Claus and will spend money they don't have. Macy's, Toys R Us, and Target make a fortune.

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Response to GiaGiovanni (Reply #266)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:33 AM

324. well actually

I know many religious families who do not practice traditional holidays and in the last decade I have seen the numbers increase. It's not that they don't believe in the message of those holidays; they just see them for what they are in society. A glorified marketing scheme. I happen to agree with their views. It's funny when you can come eye to eye with religious folks, when you aren't religious yourself like I am.

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Response to GiaGiovanni (Reply #9)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 09:08 PM

273. Yes makes you wonder who thought of it. Spiritual is not popular in our society.

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Response to cordelia (Reply #8)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 08:18 PM

47. Sounds Republican? Republicans are all about jesus and spirits.

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Response to GiaGiovanni (Reply #6)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 07:21 PM

11. You can "make merry" and spend little or no money

The whole point of the Crachetts (sic) in "A Christmas Carol."

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #11)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 07:25 PM

12. Ah, but the Cratchit's were religious.

"God bless us everyone".

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Response to cbayer (Reply #12)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 07:30 PM

15. Yes, they were

 

When you empty a religious holiday of its spiritual content, it's just another money-making opportunity for corporate America and another debt-inducing ritual for the rest of us.

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Response to GiaGiovanni (Reply #15)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 07:40 PM

24. There is more to the holidays than black Friday and Jesus Christ.

I purchase very few gifts and don't attend church and I usually have a great Christmas.

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Response to progressoid (Reply #24)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 07:51 PM

29. The atheists who put up that sign would disagree with you

 

They're not informed about alternatives.

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Response to GiaGiovanni (Reply #29)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 08:19 PM

49. From the posts you have made, it would seem that it is you who are not informed.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #49)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 01:31 AM

114. Actually, the atheists who put up that sign are not informed that there is an alternative

 

They give two stark choices: commercialism or religion. Look at their sign.

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Response to GiaGiovanni (Reply #114)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 02:36 AM

121. I really do not see what you do.

I see Santa and Jesus, two myths. I see the words "Keep the merry...", which to me means the 'spirit of the season' or 'keep the feel good part'.

And I see the words "Drop the myth", which to me means drop the make believe.

Together, the words and the pictures, describe to me, the opposite of what you see. I feel that it is your cynicism that is showing you what you want to see.


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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #121)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 12:45 AM

284. You see two myths; I see two value systems.

 

And the bankrupt value system is what is being upheld.

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Response to GiaGiovanni (Reply #29)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 08:57 PM

66. No,

It's says, "Keep the MERRY".

That's what I do.

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Response to progressoid (Reply #66)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 01:33 AM

115. The "merry" on their sign is not about family, friends, or giving. It's about Santa Claus, a symbol

 

of the commercialism that makes us all poor at the holidays.

Nice try, though.

Merry Christmas.

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Response to GiaGiovanni (Reply #115)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 10:36 AM

147. Strange semiosis you have there

Most people would see Santa as a symbol of sharing gifts and fun.

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Response to dmallind (Reply #147)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 12:51 AM

286. The semiotics of the Coca-Cola created Santa image is very clear

 

Think about how the Santa Claus myth actually operates at Christmas, how it encourages juvenile greed and consumerism. Greed becomes a good thing for children at Christmas because, after all, the gifts are on "Santa's" dime and kids can ask big. Overextended parents are forced to spend money they don't have to satisfy this greed because they have to preserve the illusion that "Santa Claus" is giving the child what he or she deserves for being good. If parents can't financially afford the Santa illusion, their children wonder why Santa gave their friends video games and computers but left them socks.

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Response to GiaGiovanni (Reply #286)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:49 AM

292. Santa is only about that if you let it

My kids never dictated what we bought for them. They never got what they wanted just because Santa said so. When they were little we would generally get several gifts for each of them. Christmas and birthdays were usually the only time of the year we bought them toys. But now that they are older they don't get many gifts, and we don't buy presents for adults either. This year we are buying our son two video games and we are giving our daughter some cash because she is saving for a car. That is all we are spending on Christmas.

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Response to GiaGiovanni (Reply #115)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 10:36 AM

148. It should be noted

That the figure of Santa Claus far, far predates modern, corporate, commercial christmas. Though Santa first appears in the States around 1820, the figure most directly derives from the Dutch Sinterklaas has been around since the 16th century, who in turn is based on St Nicolas (" Saint Nick"), a 13th century Christian figure. As well, certain parts of the Santa mythos are based on myths about Odin - during the Yule, he would lead a hunting party through the sky (a sleigh pulled by reindeer), for example.

So, no. Santa isn't about Walmart and fucking Coke bottles to everyone.

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Response to theKed (Reply #148)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:01 AM

287. The precursors to the corporate Santa did not require parents to buy tons of gifts in his name

 

The precursors were Sinterflaas, Father Christmas, and other related old male figures (often representing winter or the old passing year). In towns and villages, an older male might dress up as Father Christmas (or similar character) and give out pieces of fruit or a few candies.

The modern corporate Santa is a creation of American marketing (see Coca Cola, Santa, image) and exists for the sheer purpose of parting parents from their hard-earned (or borrowed) money. Santa Claus is what keeps kids asking for many expensive gifts (based on commercials they see). Since the gifts are "on Santa's dime" the kids can indulge their greed. Parents then must go and buy at least some of these items, often on credit cards, to preserve the illusion of Santa Claus. In hard times, parents are hard pressed to explain to their children why Santa gave so little to them but brought expensive electronics to their friends.

I am all for ending the myth of Santa Claus. It supports corporate profits and undermines real values.

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Response to GiaGiovanni (Reply #115)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 11:16 AM

167. Uh Oh.

I better not wear my Santa hat then. Thanks for defining it for me. You save me from some serious embarrassment.

Merry Christmas to you too.

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Response to progressoid (Reply #167)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:03 AM

288. You may wear whatever you wish

 

Unless you look bad in red, in which case I would go with another color.

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Response to GiaGiovanni (Reply #29)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 10:46 PM

90. Yeah, they must be idiots.

And you must be a mind reader.

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Response to Ikonoklast (Reply #90)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 01:34 AM

116. Their poster speaks their opinion. I don't have to read their minds.

 

Look at the poster.

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Response to GiaGiovanni (Reply #15)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 07:43 PM

25. I agree. I think this billboard was not well thought out.

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Response to cbayer (Reply #25)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 07:55 PM

31. It's quite simplistic in its thinking, actually

 

I would have had more respect for them if they had put up a sign telling people to use the holiday to help out the needy and less fortunate, a value that everyone shares, regardless of religion or lack thereof. If they had said, "You don't need a religion to help others during the season" with a picture of people helping the homeless, I could have really gotten behind the sentiment.

This billboard, to me, sounds more like, "Dump your God, but keep your reason for spending."

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Response to GiaGiovanni (Reply #31)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 08:04 PM

38. Much better. Something like, one doesn't need christ to share the spirit

of christmas.

I think their billboards do much better when they send an affirming and welcoming message than when they take the opportunity to attack theists.

This one misses the mark, imo.

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Response to cbayer (Reply #38)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 08:11 PM

42. I agree.

 

Bringing out the best in what we are is the ultimate goal of spirituality anyway.

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Response to GiaGiovanni (Reply #42)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 08:21 PM

50. Yeah, and I have some beachfront property in Nevada to sell you, too.

But you keep telling yourself whatever it is that you need to.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #50)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 01:35 AM

117. That makes no sense

 

LOL!

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Response to GiaGiovanni (Reply #117)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 11:09 AM

157. Sure it does, it's just over your head.

LOL!

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #157)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 12:45 PM

197. Ad hominem arguments don't help your case

 

They just make you look like you're taking this personally.

I gather that you have some deep-seated feelings about religion that are not to be dealt with in a single thread.

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Response to GiaGiovanni (Reply #42)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 01:36 PM

208. HA HA HA HA HA OMG LOLOLOLOL

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Response to cbayer (Reply #38)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 01:17 PM

204. You're an avowed and outspoken Theist

I hardly think your opinion on what misses the mark is entirely objective here.

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Response to tkmorris (Reply #204)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 01:34 PM

207. I am? Wow.



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Response to cbayer (Reply #207)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 01:50 PM

212. I think you've been very measured and respectful in your responses

 

Thank you.

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Response to GiaGiovanni (Reply #212)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 02:12 PM

214. Thank you. And those that make assumptions about what or who I am have their

own need to do so.

It would be pretty funny if their false assumptions weren't used as a reason to attack me.

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Response to cbayer (Reply #214)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 02:20 PM

216. It's not just about you, I think

 

There's a real anger towards religion, some of it warranted and some of it not. It gets taken out on anyone who expresses support for religious sentiments or who (at least) doesn't come out swinging against such sentiments. What these folks tend to forget is that Dr. Martin Luther King, Gandhi, Malcolm X (in later life), Dorothy Day, and much of the anti-war movement all came from a spiritual/religious base. True social reform starts with the notion that we are our brothers' keepers and that caring for others is a major spiritual responsibility.

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Response to GiaGiovanni (Reply #216)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 02:25 PM

217. I know of what you speak. I am a hostess in the Religion group.



One thing that happened is that "christian" was co-opted by the religious right. Prior to that, it was more often associated with civil liberty and social justice causes in this country.

I think that ship is turning around, but it is slow and much damage has been done.

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Response to cbayer (Reply #217)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 02:35 PM

221. Unfortunately, I think you're right

 

One has to say "liberal Christian" these days to get any traction. What people don't understand is that the so-called Christian right is a creation of the political far right, probably as an inoculation against the very social justice aspect of Christianity that we are discussing.

People don't understand that William F. Buckley Jr. (remember young Americans for Freedom?) funneled a ton of money into on-campus conservative Christian groups. The Campus Crusade for Christ came out of that. If I recall correctly, William F. Buckley's Young America Foundation (which has outlived his death) is the single largest off-campus funder of on-campus activities, completely dwarfing all other off-campus donors.

When so-called Christian media supports drone attacks on children or openly advocates for the killing of a foreign president, they are no longer Christian but political activists, and not of a moral kind.

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Response to tkmorris (Reply #204)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 01:49 PM

211. Someone who is not a theist (an atheist or agnostic) would also be lacking in objectivity

 

I don't know who could rightly be considered "objective" on this kind of thing.

Also, I don't believe it is necessary to be "objective" to have an opinion. After all, the stronger one's opinion on a thing, the more opportunity there is for bias. People will react to things in the way they will. What matters is how people talk across the divide. If one is thoughtful and respectful, using terms like "misses the mark" instead of "sucks like a motherfucker," then a conversation can occur. If one acknowledges the complexity of the issue and respects one's interlocutor instead of yelling, "stupid" and "it's over your head" then one can talk across the divide.

So far, the "avowed and outspoken Theist" has been thoughtful and respectful, while the non-Theist side has responded with ad hominem attacks and emotional jabs. That says a lot.

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Response to GiaGiovanni (Reply #15)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 08:54 PM

62. Sure, if you're dumb

The family gets together for a nice feast. Golly, what horrific commercialism!!!

If you think removing the religion requires buying lots of presents, you are doing it wrong.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #62)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 01:14 AM

113. ^^^THIS^^^

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #62)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 01:37 AM

118. Look at the sign itself. Their message is clear.

 

No need to sink into personal insults. Just look at their sign.

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Response to GiaGiovanni (Reply #118)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 09:12 AM

134. Or you could actually look at the sign instead of making assumptions

Where does the sign say "Buy more stuff"?

You are assuming the only options are 1) Go to church, or 2) go to the mall. There's no reason to limit it to those two choices.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #134)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 12:47 PM

198. Santa Claus as we know him is a corporate invention

 

Google "Coca-Cola, Santa" and you'll find the origins of the image and the commercialization of what was formerly a folk culture figure.

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Response to GiaGiovanni (Reply #198)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 07:33 PM

262. Santa

Is the gateway drug to Christianity. Once you get the kids to fear the invisible one's judgment, tell
them he knows if they've been bad or good. It's easy to transition to an all knowing, all judging invisible
deity. A lump of coal to an eternity in Hell.

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Response to Laochtine (Reply #262)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 08:15 PM

268. Christianity pre-existed Santa Claus, and unlike the American Santa, is anti-greed

 

Whatsoever you do to the least of my brothers, that you do unto me.

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Response to GiaGiovanni (Reply #198)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 09:53 PM

275. Santa Claus as you know him is a corporate invention

Fixed that for you.

The fact that companies like to use a non-trademark-able image doesn't mean you have to believe them.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #275)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 12:35 AM

280. Read the history of Santa Claus in America

 

And try to actually think this through. It will do you some good.

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Response to GiaGiovanni (Reply #280)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:44 AM

299. Again, corporations only get to define him if you want them to.

You seem to want them to very, very much.

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Response to GiaGiovanni (Reply #118)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 09:37 AM

142. Just because corporate entities have co-opted Santa doesn't mean Santa = Corporatism

There are plenty of Xmas Specials, Songs and Iconography where Santa rewards the smallest things. Santa is about a whimsical spirit of the season in which children are taught to be on their best behavior and to give to others rather than worry about receiving and "give" doesn't necessarily mean buy. It's a universally peaceful and wonderful message.

Just because he's been used in ads doesn't change what he stands for. And people like you royally fucking ruin Christmas with your finger pointing about the purity of the message.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #62)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 03:57 AM

124. So... are you dumb, then??

jeff47

62. Sure, if you're dumb

The family gets together for a nice feast. Golly, what horrific commercialism!!!

If you think removing the religion requires buying lots of presents, you are doing it wrong.


Sounds to me like you're confusing Thanksgiving and christmas. Thanksgiving is a time to gather with family, enjoy a great feast and not have to worry about religion or buying lots of presents.

As an Atheist, this billboard is telling me that Santa is real, so expect a lot of presents, and jesus is a myth, so leave him out of it and don't worry about him. Your mileage may vary...

A few years ago, on here, I coined the term "Hatetheism". There's a fine line between an Atheist and Hatetheist, in my not so humble opinion. As an Atheist, though I may reject the notion of a supernatural, paranormal, extra-terrestrial Supreme Being, I am tolerant of, and I respect the right of others to believe to believe in, and worship, this Being. Hatetheists, on the other hand, have zero tolerance, or respect, for the rights of others to choose to believe and/or worship as they see fit.

Can we PLEASE just stop the hate and intolerance and focus on the Peace, Love, Tolerance and Happiness of *EVERYONE*??

Peace,

Ghost

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Response to Ghost in the Machine (Reply #124)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 09:10 AM

133. The holidays do not have to be different.

In our family, one side gets Thanksgiving, the other gets Christmas.

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Response to Ghost in the Machine (Reply #124)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 09:41 AM

145. Santa does not automatically equal commercialism.

Just because some corporations co-opted a non-trademarkable image into their advertising doesn't change that Santa represents a peaceful loving character to children who teaches kids to be on their best behavior and that giving to others is more important than receiving for yourself (a rather liberal point of view).

But since you're so wrapped up in your hatred for commercialism (which by the way, if people did refrain completely from it, exactly how would our economy work? No spending of money means no jobs which means we're all fucked) that you refuse to see that Santa is altruistic in his makeup.

I suppose I should hate all fucking Gecko lizards because Geico uses one to hock bullshit overpriced insurance.

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Response to Ghost in the Machine (Reply #124)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 11:10 AM

160. Well, the important thing is that you figured out a way to make yourself feel superior to everyone.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #62)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 11:27 AM

175. That's my favorite thing about the season. I don't get

to spend very many occasions with my far flung extended family. Virgin births have nothing to do with the joy I get from Christmas dinner.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #62)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 02:33 PM

218. Except Santa isn't in that at all

 

Santa is all about gifts. Stuff. Things.

If they had a picture of a family getting together, you may have had a point.

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Response to AlexSatan (Reply #218)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 09:50 PM

274. Companies abuse Santa because there's no trademark.

But there's no reason to think Santa is giving more than one small gift.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #274)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 12:18 AM

279. No reason except for reality

 

i.e. if Santa "comes", very few people get just one present.

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Response to AlexSatan (Reply #279)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:44 AM

300. According to corporations and the media

Why do they get to define your holiday for you?

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #300)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:01 AM

303. Really?

 

You think that people would not want/expect gifts if not for corporations and media?

Have you ever met any people? Especially kids?

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Response to AlexSatan (Reply #303)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:05 AM

304. There's a difference between expecting gifts and expect a mountain of gifts.

You are claiming that abandoning Christ in Christmas results in buying a mountain of gifts.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #304)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:07 AM

306. Please show me where I claimed that.

 

Or apologize.

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Response to AlexSatan (Reply #306)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:15 AM

308. Can't read your own thread responses?

For your claims to make any sense requires a massive quantity of gifts. One present doesn't turn the holiday into a commercial extravaganza. Yet your claim is that by replacing Christ with Santa, the holiday becomes only about commercialism.

Even if your intention was to object to gifts at all, you are utterly ignoring the fact that according to myth Santa doesn't bring presents to everyone, just the "good girls and boys".

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #308)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:19 AM

311. "I apologize" would have been the correct response

 

one gift doesn't make a mountain. But neither does 5 or 10.

Santa IS about commercialism. Family get-togethers, even with a small gift exchange, does not. However, the image of Santa implies more than just one small gift.

And everyone knows that its not just the good kids that get gifts or there would be a lot of kids getting nothing.

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Response to AlexSatan (Reply #311)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:42 AM

314. Not when you're the one that's wrong.

Santa IS about commercialism

Because the naughty and nice lists aren't a major component of the Santa myth.

one gift doesn't make a mountain. But neither does 5 or 10.

Then how is Santa about rampant commercialism if it's not about a lot of presents?

However, the image of Santa implies more than just one small gift.

According to Wal-Mart. Why do they get to define your holiday? Shouldn't you define your holiday?

And everyone knows that its not just the good kids that get gifts or there would be a lot of kids getting nothing.

If you are using the myth, you have to use the myth. It includes that naughty list.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #314)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 12:08 PM

315. You claimed I said something I didn't

 

I was often rotten as a kid (and knew it) but still go t a lot of presents.

I was a kid before Wal-mart and expected one small gift at the family gathering but expected a lot more under the Xmas tree.

Please show me where the Christmas myth is officially defined and then you will possibly have credibility on that argument. And if the "myth" isn't followed in practice, why would it be relevant in discussing how people interpret the ad? Do kids who are naughty actually believe they will not get presents under the tree?

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Response to AlexSatan (Reply #218)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:52 AM

301. Santa is all about sharing and helping others. Santa is a hippie. n/t

 

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #301)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:06 AM

305. The only thing Santa does

 

is bring stuff. Things. Presents.

Can't say I've ever had a hippie give me anything, besides kind words. ( I never had any desire for a joint)

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Response to AlexSatan (Reply #305)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:17 AM

309. That's sharing or giving and you just didn't hang out with the right hippies, or maybe you

 

weren't in need?

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Response to GiaGiovanni (Reply #6)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 08:17 PM

46. That spiritual part has been working so very, very well so far, too!

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Response to GiaGiovanni (Reply #6)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 08:50 PM

60. Dump the commercial and dump the spiritual.

People celebrate birthdays just fine BOTH without spending a fortune AND with no any "spiritual" overtones. The same goes for other holidays like Thanksgiving, Mothers Day and Fathers Day, New Years, Veterans Day, Memorial Day...etc.

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Response to NYC Liberal (Reply #60)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 12:42 AM

282. Asking people to dump their religion is not the answer

 

Dumping the commercialism would be good for all of us, except Macy's and Walmart.

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Response to GiaGiovanni (Reply #6)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 04:02 AM

125. Don't see how you could get that from the ad unless you were looking for it. n/t

 

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #125)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 12:43 AM

283. Didn't have to look, it was there.

 

But you are clearly looking for something to be angry about.

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Response to GiaGiovanni (Reply #283)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:08 AM

289. Wow. I think you are projecting here. I'm not angry in the least, but you seem to be rather hostile.

 

I saw Santa Clause, happy and smiling, and a fictional character.

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #289)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:27 AM

290. I stand by my comments to you

 

And I think if you're honest with yourself, you will admit you were looking to be hostile yourself.

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Response to GiaGiovanni (Reply #290)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:40 AM

291. Well, I went back and looked at the OP, then at my reply and I still think it is you

 

that needs to take a peek inside.

But hey, I hope your holiday is happy one.

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Response to GiaGiovanni (Reply #6)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 10:00 PM

276. it doesn't actually say that nt

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Response to DaniDubois (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 07:18 PM

10. I don't care whether it's 100% accurate; I love the story.

The stable, the manger, no room at the inn, the shepherds watching their flocks in the snow, the 3 wise men, etc., on December 25 in the year 0000, all makes for a great story. I'm not sure why the atheists feel so threatened by it that they feel the need to buy a billboard ad to counteract it.

At least they are keeping Saint Nicholas.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #10)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 07:26 PM

13. It's probably because they see so many things like this all year long

 



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Response to DaniDubois (Reply #13)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 07:28 PM

14. OK, I never saw those billboards before, but they are just as stupid if not more so.

And this Rev Briggs is clearly a nutcase.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #14)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 07:40 PM

23. There are thousands of billboards just like those

placed by many nutcases. Obviously the more threatening ones are more common is some areas than they are in others.

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Response to Mariana (Reply #23)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 09:03 PM

69. THOUSANDS? Really?

I'm surprised, because I've never seen one until these pictures.

Bake

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Response to Bake (Reply #69)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 09:10 PM

74. Me neither. Atheistic evangelism is obviously a bigger business than I realized (nt)

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Response to DaniDubois (Reply #13)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 07:31 PM

16. Have never seen this billboards. Where do you live?

 

I think these things tend to be regional.

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Response to GiaGiovanni (Reply #16)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 07:56 PM

34. I live in a very conservative area

and have seen several billboards like these. They tend to be in rural, conservative areas.

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Response to Terra Alta (Reply #34)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 07:58 PM

36. That makes sense

 

I'm in a very blue area and haven't seen any of these.

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Response to GiaGiovanni (Reply #36)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 11:39 PM

97. Even in the areas where they're relatively more common

you won't usually find them along the Interstate. They tend to be on the secondary highways and the back roads.

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Response to DaniDubois (Reply #13)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 07:36 PM

20. the funny thing is, the Christians who whine about the billboard in the first post

wholly support those billboards.

As a Christian who believes in the freedom of speech, I have no problem with any of those billboards. Unlike many who call themselves Christian, I follow the actual teachings of Jesus: loving your neighbor, helping the poor, and being a peacemaker.

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Response to DaniDubois (Reply #13)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 07:44 PM

26. Wow, that's fucking stupid

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Response to DaniDubois (Reply #13)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 12:26 AM

101. I spent a good part of 2011 as an Over The Road trucker traveling the lower 48. Never saw a single

billboad like that.

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Response to DaniDubois (Reply #13)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 12:41 AM

103. If God and I are different, then a larger 'understanding' is needed for us to have a relation

Christians: people who believe that an infinite, limitless God resides in a place, Heaven (must be bigger than infinite) and never goes to another place, hell (must be located outside of the limitless).

All "things" have to originate from "no thing"; to think otherwise is to believe that the creator is just one more thing.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #10)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 07:56 PM

32. Why do religious people feel threatened by atheists?

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Response to Logical (Reply #32)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 08:02 PM

37. I don't. But some certainly do.

A MOB attacked Alexander Aan even before an Indonesian court in June jailed him for two and a half years for “inciting religious hatred”. His crime was to write “God does not exist” on a Facebook group he had founded for atheists in Minang, a province of the world’s most populous Muslim nation. Like most non-believers in Islamic regions, he was brought up as a Muslim. And like many who profess godlessness openly, he has been punished.

http://www.economist.com/news/international/21567059-ex-muslim-atheists-are-becoming-more-outspoken-tolerance-still-rare-no-god-not

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #37)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 08:11 PM

41. There's no need to travel all that way to find them.

Reverend Briggs, for example, is in West Virginia.

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Response to Logical (Reply #32)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 08:57 PM

65. Read the sign and re-ask the question

 

n/t

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Response to Logical (Reply #32)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 09:03 PM

70. Nobody likes being mocked or insulted. I think it's that more than

feeling threatened.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #70)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 09:33 AM

140. If you believe in mythical sky beings, prepare to be mocked LOL

Luckily as the human population becomes more educated it realizes there is no more need to put "faith" in place of understanding.


100 Billion Stars in our Galaxy...Jesus didn't build that

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Response to Logical (Reply #32)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 10:49 PM

93. Why do athiests feel threatened by religious people (namely Christians)? nt

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Response to Skip Intro (Reply #93)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 10:11 AM

146. Because Christianity has a two thousand year history one can research.

And their record of going from a persecuted cult to the state religion bent on eliminating all others is there for all to see.

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Response to Ikonoklast (Reply #146)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 12:24 PM

193. So, in 2012, athiests fear mobs of Christians will murder them?

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Response to Skip Intro (Reply #193)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 01:00 PM

200. Any question prefaced with a "So,..." creates a Straw Man.

But, Christian religionists hating atheists, along with hating other competing religions, is no new thing in this country, or any other country for that matter.

If Christian Fundamentalism ever got hold of this government even worse than it already has, the answer may be 'Yes'.

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Response to Skip Intro (Reply #193)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 07:45 PM

264. How about a mob

of Christians writing their god into laws in this country. As an atheist, I only fear being fired from my job by my always proselytizing boss, If I was gay it might be a different story.

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Response to Ikonoklast (Reply #146)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 02:34 PM

220. Yes, and Stalin was a warm cuddly guy in the name of atheism. (nt)

 

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Response to AlexSatan (Reply #220)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 04:03 PM

242. Reaction to Imperial Rule backed by the Orthodox Church.

But, good try, call it fifty years in total vs. a millenia of persecution.

Stalin studied to be a priest, you know...and he was not an Atheist, no matter how loudly Christians assert that.


Stalin saw a corrupt Church as an impediment to his securing absolute power, and eliminated, neutralized or curtailed their activities, just as he did every other perceived threat to his rule.

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Response to Ikonoklast (Reply #242)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 04:30 PM

247. Lots of Atheists used to be involved in the church or even ministry

 

""You know, they are fooling us, there is no God...all this talk about God is sheer nonsense" " - Stalin

He was forced to train as a priest by his parents and was expelled from seminary because he was always making excuses to leave the seminary.

Sorry, but I believe his own words over what you claim he believed.

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Response to AlexSatan (Reply #247)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 04:48 PM

249. And you claimed he killed in the name of Atheism. That's not true.

He killed in the name of Power, and did so without regard to any belief system held by those he did away with.

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Response to Ikonoklast (Reply #249)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 05:04 PM

250. Didn't you just say

 

"Stalin saw a corrupt Church as an impediment to his securing absolute power, and eliminated, neutralized or curtailed their activities,"

Sounds like he targeted those folks with those certain beliefs.

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Response to AlexSatan (Reply #250)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 05:14 PM

252. And he did the same to Marxists, supporters of Lenin, and Communist Party members.

Purged their ranks ruthlessly until only his cultists remained.

Killed them in the tens and hundreds of thousands.

Guess he hated Communists, too.

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Response to AlexSatan (Reply #220)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 05:19 PM

254. George W. Bush is a Christian,

and is responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths for profit!

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Response to Skip Intro (Reply #93)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 05:39 PM

258. Madelyn Murry O'Hair said it well;

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Response to Logical (Reply #32)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 03:55 PM

237. I believe you're confusing "threatened" with "annoyed"

I don't know why, but some atheists think that a negative reaction to them constantly trying to spoil people's holidays is "being threatened."

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #10)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 08:22 PM

51. It is from that single story that has sprung one of the most destructive forces known to humanity.

And you wonder why people are uneasy about it? Really?

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #51)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 08:51 PM

61. Do unto others as you would have others do unto you.

Blessed are the peacemakers.

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

Love your neighbor as yourself.


Yep, that's destructive stuff all right.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #61)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 09:07 PM

72. Good point.

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Response to randome (Reply #72)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 12:48 AM

106. "With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil..."

"With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil—that takes religion. " Steven Weinberg

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #61)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 09:14 PM

77. Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth.

"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

"But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me.'"

"Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."

"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters--yes, even his own life--he cannot be my disciple.


Let's see calls to violence and war, calls to kill whoever does not bow. A cult like devotion where one's family should be cut off if they don't believe. Oh, and a single path to salvation wherein everyone who does not believe will burn forever. Jesus was among the worst of humanity's religious leaders in terms of calling for violence and intolerance. I'm sorry Jesus was a pretty poor moral leader. Give me Buddha anyday.

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Response to white_wolf (Reply #77)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 09:19 PM

80. And good point.

But you are more likely to hear the peace-loving passages quoted than these. For what it's worth.

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Response to randome (Reply #80)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 09:25 PM

81. That's my problem with moderate Christianity.

It does not make any sense. If you accept the Bible as the word of God and everything in it as true then you really can't compromise. Either God does demand that you worship him or go to hell or he doesn't. There is no middle-ground in any religion that preaches a single God and an eternal destination after this life on earth. Either everyone who does not believe will go to hell or they won't. If you truly believe what the Bible says about Jesus, salvation, God, etc. then you can't be a moderate. In Revelation Jesus himself says that lukewarm faith is worse than no faith. Moderate Christianity and Islam simply don't make sense if you truly believe what the religion teaches.

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Response to white_wolf (Reply #81)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 09:32 PM

82. I hear you but most do NOT accept the Bible as the word of God.

They SAY they do but there is no logical thinking behind that. In fact, it's probably not 'thinking' the way you and I...um, think of it.

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Response to randome (Reply #82)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 12:53 AM

108. But they DO accept it that way, for exactly the reasons you listed.

It is what they were TOLD to believe as children for fear of punishment. It is brainwashing and indoctrination, plain and simple. I call it child abuse.


Give me the children until they are seven and anyone may have them afterwards. - St. Francis Xavier

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #108)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 11:12 AM

162. Oh bloody hogwash -

I am rather tired of nonsense like this. Portraying a minority fundamentalism as the sine qua non of chrisitianity is as simple minded as biblical literalism itself.

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Response to LTX (Reply #162)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 11:29 AM

177. You are entitled to your opinion, no matter how wilfully ignorant it may be.

We will just have to agree to disagree. I do not expect one that subscribes to religious belief to have the ability to reflect on just how dangerous it is.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #177)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 11:33 AM

178. Remarkable -

You and irony are not on speaking terms, I see.

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Response to LTX (Reply #178)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 11:41 AM

180. Maybe not, but only because believers broke the irony meter eons ago.

If we are to continue, I need some context. Are you a believer? If so, what religion?

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #180)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 12:04 PM

188. I don't know why that's relevant to the point, but

Jewish, reform. How does that information help in a discussion about whether the beliefs of a particular fundamentalist sect of chrisitianity are allegedly indispensable to christianity as a whole?

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Response to LTX (Reply #188)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 12:11 PM

191. I am not very familiar with that.

Do you hold any beliefs where a supernatural explanation is the answer?

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #191)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 12:32 PM

194. All depends on your definition of supernatural.

I accept effective immateriality as a component of the universe, so in the strictest sense I accept "an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe." I remain, however, somewhat mystified at the relevance of this to the original point.

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Response to white_wolf (Reply #77)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 12:37 AM

102. "A cult like devotion where one's family should be cut off if they don't believe."

Wow. You just described a not insignificant number of posters here at DU and how they feel about the political inclinations of their own Moms, Dads, Brothers, Sisters, and others in their very own families.

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Reply #102)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 12:50 AM

107. Scary, isn't it.

Politics and religion; tools to divide and control people.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #107)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 01:09 AM

111. Zactly. We differ on which we believe is the worst though...

I haven't encountered in my life, either in person or through the media, a politician I'd piss on if they were on fire. That's how little respect I have for ALL politicians. I can honestly say I can't remember voting FOR someone rather than either voting against someone or for the lesser of x number of evils. I think EGO is what drives people to politics.

I have however met atheists, agnostics, and those who profess one religion or another that I thought were completely honorable, compassionate, and/or filled with empathy. Other side of the coin: I've met people from the aforementioned three groups whose burning bodies I wouldn't waste my urine on.

Bottom line for me: I think you'd find more honest people in a discussion of religion/atheism/agnosticism than you would a discussion with politicians.

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Reply #111)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 01:13 AM

112. You just may be right.

Hard to argue with that.

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Reply #102)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 01:53 AM

293. I've noticed that too

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #61)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 12:46 AM

105. Do we really need to go through the exercise where I rebut you with terrible things from the bible..

then you come back with your examples, then I reply with mine..... and on.....and on...?



Perhaps my point can best be summed up by what Steven Weinberg said...

"With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil—that takes religion."

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #61)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 10:47 AM

151. That's all well and good

But centuries-long invasions of the middle east and a millenia of inter-state warfare in Europe, largely predicated by religion, say otherwise. And, of course, the racism, suppression of knowledge and freedom, church sponsered torture and murder...etc, etc.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #61)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 11:09 AM

159. None of which are original or unique to Christianity

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #51)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 11:09 AM

158. You seem to be reversing cause and effect

People find any sort of tribe-identification or set of ideas to define "us" and "them" in order to proceed to destructive behavior.

What "destructive force" was generated by Christianity which did not exist prior to Christianity?

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #158)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 11:15 AM

166. This is traditionally the point where someone brings up the Crusades (nt)

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #166)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 11:51 AM

183. While ignoring the fact that Damascus was invading Europe before the Crusades pulled them back.


I'm waiting for outrage over America and Britain invading France in 1944. Totally uncalled for imperalism on our part, don'cha know?


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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #166)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 11:56 AM

184. There were no wars prior to the Crusades?


Really?

The Greeks, Babylonians, Persians, Romans, and Egyptians were just peaceful homebodies?

Again, what mass human behavior was ushered in by Christianity?

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #158)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 11:27 AM

174. Organized religion, and especially christianity, has brought more death, destruction, and suffering

upon the world than anything else.

Of course, if you are a believer of a religion, you will never see that. Which kinda makes my point.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #174)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 11:59 AM

186. How is your point made?

I have no religious beliefs, and am not an adherent of any religion.

People have been engaged in death, destruction and suffering because that's what people do once they organize according to almost any social structure. Inevitably, be it a tribe, nation, or whatever, they collide with others, believe that others who are not part of their clan, tribe, nation, or whatever, are a threat, and engage in wars.

What is unique about Christianity in that regard?

In fact, it is the belief in the superiority of one's group - whatever it is - that leads to this sort of thing, through a process of attributing "bad characteristics" to others.

For example, you assert that your opinion is incomprehensible to people who believe in religion. I do not believe in any religion, and yet I still disagree with you.

Simply put, whenever any group believes they are somehow immune to doing horrific things, they inexorably commence to do them.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #174)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:59 AM

320. that is the most absurd thing I have ever read, other than that billboard

How could someone even type that with a straight face? If you even remotely studied history, you would know that statement is so far gone from reality, that you might as well include it in an episode of Star Trek. Plagues have killed more people in a decade than all the wars on earth combined. Communism has attributed to over 100,000,000 deaths on just under 6 decades; yet, you are naming Christianity is the greatest threat to humanity ever? Delusional much? Doesn't surprise me though; most of the outspoken atheists are just sad people with an unhealthy complex. The atheists who aren't constantly whining for attention don't have a problem with religion; because, it doesn't effect their daily lives. Do you even know what the leading cause of death is in the world? It's cardiovascular disease. Darn those religious nuts for making everyone not do exercise and eat like pigs! *sarcasm*

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #51)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 03:42 PM

235. Greed and nationalism based on imaginary lines on map?

"most destructive forces known to humanity..."

Greed and nationalism based on imaginary lines on map?

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #235)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:16 AM

321. Agreed ^^

The chaos we see in society is attributed to human instincts. Humans fight for what we perceive as necessities and when we become greedy or afraid we seek out more of the stuff we want. This can be anything! There was a time when people murdered each other for piles of colored ore, now we murder each other for underground pools of black stuff. Anyone attributing all the chaos in the world to religion is simply fooling themselves. Even a devout priest is capable of throwing their beliefs aside to quell the human urges that boil inside of us all. More often than not though, someone will come along and misrepresent a system of beliefs, tarnishing it. For instance, anyone with a shred of logic knows that the Westboro Baptist Church does not represent the beliefs or intentions of every Christian. They are a bunch of extremists that have nothing but ill intent. To claim all Christians are the same would be pure bigotry, something many notable atheists are well known for; such as, Richard Dawkins.

Don't let one bad apple spoil the reputation of everyone. I've met people on opposite ends of the spectrum from both stand points. There are those who use their beliefs to do good for the world, by committing constructive acts. Then there are those who just want to tarnish on everyone else, as a means of soothing their inadequacies in life. One leads to progress, the other doesn't.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #51)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 04:02 PM

241. Lol.

Does that chip on your shoulder fit in your car or do you have to take the bus?

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Response to DaniDubois (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 07:32 PM

17. evangelizing atheism! now that's got some irony!!

definition two below.

evangelize, evangelise
vb
1. (Christianity / Protestantism) to preach the Christian gospel or a particular interpretation of it (to)
2. (intr) to advocate a cause with the object of making converts

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Response to yawnmaster (Reply #17)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 07:39 PM

22. it's all about freedom of speech.

If fundamentalist Christians can put up anti-atheism billboards, then atheists should be allowed to put up atheists billboards as well. I don't think atheists are out to make "converts", they are just trying to get a point across.

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Response to Terra Alta (Reply #22)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 08:15 PM

43. hmmmm....if the myth is dumped as they ask, they have gained a convert!

no problem at all with the freedom of speech.

it is still very ironic.

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Response to yawnmaster (Reply #43)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 08:25 PM

53. Convert to what?

If you stop collecting stamps as your hobby and take up nothing to replace it, just what hobby have you converted to?

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #53)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 01:33 PM

206. To atheism! there is even an organization and a website! eom

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Response to yawnmaster (Reply #206)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 07:45 PM

263. !

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Response to Terra Alta (Reply #22)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 02:37 PM

222. Allowed to, sure

 

And it puts them on the same annoying level as all those others who evangelize. bleh.

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Response to yawnmaster (Reply #17)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 07:52 PM

30. Yup. There are fundie atheists, too,

who are just as completely certain of the rightness of their cause as any fundie Christian, and just as determined to evangelize their message.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #30)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 08:26 PM

54. Well, if it makes you feel better to tell yourself that...

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #54)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 09:13 PM

76. I think you are a prime example.

Judging simply by your behavior over time.

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Response to kwassa (Reply #76)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 12:56 AM

109. Judge not lest ye be judged?

Hypocrite.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #54)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 09:55 PM

86. Hi. Why are you so persistently contentious, belittling and dismissive in any discussion

with other DU members who may hold a different point of view than you? I see that you think Christianity is one of the most destructive forces known to humanity. I see your point. Is there no further discussion you're interested in beyond that? Or any discussion at all?

I just don't get it.

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Response to pinto (Reply #86)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 12:56 AM

110. I know you don't.

And that makes me sad.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #30)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 08:55 PM

63. Sorry.

I'm as "fundie" as they get and I could give a rip what anyone else thinks on the subject. I'm just ever-lovin' tired of hearlng about it, directly or via billboards.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #30)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 09:16 PM

79. Yeah except fundie atheists carry books and microphones.

Fundi Christians and Muslims carry guns and bombs.

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Response to white_wolf (Reply #79)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 10:57 AM

152. lemme fix that for you

Fundi Christians and Muslims carry guns
and bombs and books and microphones and radio stations and tv networks and...

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Response to yawnmaster (Reply #17)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 09:36 AM

141. Or you can say evangelizing science...

Appears we need a lot more of that wouldn't you say?


How old is the earth again sir? Allah told you to do WHAT to young girls? When you die your "spirit energy" which contains atoms does WHAT again! LOL

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Response to snooper2 (Reply #141)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 01:38 PM

209. huh?? your point is not clear. plus what is the spirit energy the contains atoms?? eom

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Response to yawnmaster (Reply #17)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 11:57 AM

185. Why is that ironic?


I have never heard Atheism equated with opposition to advocacy before.

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Response to ieoeja (Reply #185)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 01:41 PM

210. you see, evangelism is usually equated with religion, yet this billboard is clearly...

evangelizing for a change (conversion) from Christianity.

The organization, American Atheists are using evangelism as a tool, which is one of the complaints often heard of religion!

see now?

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Response to yawnmaster (Reply #210)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 02:14 PM

215. All advertising for a cause of some sort is technically evangelism.

In a broad sense, you are right. They are "evangelizing" a way of thinking, saying you can have fun and still celebrate during this time of year without accepting a mythological character as a literal living entity.

When complaining about evangelism though, the level of evangelism (and of course the lack of an equal playing field) by Christians is the real complaint. They usually aren't using the broad webster's dictionary definition of the word. That would be speaking out against anyone trying to convince people of any kind of science or philosophical viewpoint (valid or not) in existence. Evangelism does have dictionary definitions referring specifically to Christianity though.

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Response to Bradical79 (Reply #215)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 03:59 PM

239. definition two below



evangelize, evangelise
vb
1. (Christianity / Protestantism) to preach the Christian gospel or a particular interpretation of it (to)
2. (intr) to advocate a cause with the object of making converts

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Response to DaniDubois (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 07:33 PM

18. Fox News didn't like it one bit

Feel the love!

FOX News Host: You offended me with your billboard so I’m going to laugh about the murder of your group’s founder....

Varney: What do you care. She’s dead, right?

Silverman: Of course I care. How in the world can you say that? How in the world can you say that?! What a bigoted thing to say! That I don’t care about people dying because I’m an atheist?

Varney (talking over Silverman): Well, is it true–? Is it true–? Hold on a second. Is it– God forbid, I should offend you. No, Heaven forbid I should offend you.

Silverman: You should not offend anybody! You should try to not offend people. But that doesn’t mean–

Varney: (Laughing) See, I’ve got to! I’ve got to!

Silverman: You’re not letting me speak, and it does get to me…

Varney: (Laughing) But you offended me with your billboard!


http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2012/12/12/fox-news-host-to-atheist-you-offended-me-with-your-billboard-so-im-going-to-laugh-about-the-murder-of-your-groups-founder/

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Response to pokerfan (Reply #18)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 07:44 PM

27. Are you surprised?

I'm not.

Laughing about anyone's murder is despicable, but especially if it's a person you believe to be in hell, suffering the worst punishment possible.

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Response to Terra Alta (Reply #27)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 07:57 PM

35. For some people, that's one of the benefits of being a Christian.

Last edited Wed Dec 12, 2012, 11:28 PM - Edit history (1)

You get to fantasize about everyone you don't like burning for eternity.

Edited to add: "You" in the general sense. I didn't mean you personally, Terra Alta.

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Response to pokerfan (Reply #18)


Response to DaniDubois (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 07:35 PM

19. Atheists wrap Anchorage buses in ads saying "Imagine no religion"

http://www.alaskadispatch.com/article/atheists-wrap-anchorage-buses-holiday-ads-asking-alaskans-imagine-no-religion

On your next drive through Anchorage you may find yourself confronted with a handful of areligious commandments. Statements like "Sleep in on Sundays," "Enjoy Life Now There is No Afterlife," "Imagine No Religion" and "Yes, Virginia ... There Is No God" will grace the sides of PeopleMover buses throughout the month of December, compliments of the Wisconsin-based Freedom from Religion Foundation.

“Christians tend to think 'they own the month of December. We don't agree. No month is free from pagan reverie!'" the foundation said in a press release about the ad campaign, quoting the group's co-president, Dan Barker, a former minister-turned atheist.

The missives are meant to be fun and light-hearted, a seasonal celebration of reason over religion. Billboards or bus signs have been installed at various times in nearly half the states in the nation, in FFRF's public relations effort to promote free thought.

“We think if people would imagine no religion, we would have a world free of religious strife,” explained co-president Annie Laurie Gaylor, noting that persecution, holy wars and even modern day terrorism have religion at their core.

<snip>

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Response to Blue_In_AK (Reply #19)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 08:19 PM

48. I can imagine a world with no religion, and in it...

mankind has found some other excuse to war, demand obedience, dominate over another, etc..

religion has been used as a tool for this purpose.
there can be many other tools.

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Response to yawnmaster (Reply #48)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 08:27 PM

55. True, but the less tools for destruction we have at our disposal, the better.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #55)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 01:32 PM

205. it won't make any difference. The unintended consequences alone are not worth it. eom

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Response to DaniDubois (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 07:49 PM

28. why?

I have no problem with the billboard, it is a teeny amount of dissent so why should anyone be threatened by it?

But my response to it is to ask, why dump the myth?

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Response to Enrique (Reply #28)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 11:01 AM

153. I see no reason to dump the myth

do long as people are willing to admit thats what it is. Like Santa. Nobody over the age of 10 really believes in santa, and thats okay. Jesus, on the other hand...?

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Response to DaniDubois (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 07:56 PM

33. I'm not appalled by religious people believing absurd things.

It's when they try to prove their faith by disseminating statements which they know are lies, and use their religious freedom to impose those beliefs on others.

Belligerently crying out "MERRY CHRISTMAS!" in return for a friendly & heart-felt "Happy Holidays!" is not only anti-Christian, it's un-American.

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Response to DaniDubois (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 08:04 PM

39. Saying Jesus doesn't exist is no more or less offensive

than saying he does.

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Response to DaniDubois (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 08:23 PM

52. This is why I don't call myself an atheist.

I don't belong to any club and I will resist any label. I am randome. That is all.

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Response to randome (Reply #52)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 08:31 PM

56. I say I'm not a theist. Or a deist. Or a skiist. nt

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Response to valerief (Reply #56)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 08:36 PM

57. What about a 'bee-ist'? What's not to like about bees?

Okay, I'm stretching the point way too much but I get what you mean.

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Response to randome (Reply #57)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 08:41 PM

59. I love me some honeybees! I'm a beeist, for sure. :)

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Response to DaniDubois (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 08:56 PM

64. Very mean and militantly hostile for no reason

 

They unintentionally created 1,000's of anti-atheist Christian-Right Republicans.

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Response to Ter (Reply #64)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 09:37 PM

84. ....or they made a few realize that there is, in fact, no god

 

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Response to Taverner (Reply #84)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 10:53 PM

95. No. No they didn't. What they did do is create

hostility against atheists.

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Response to cordelia (Reply #95)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 11:47 PM

98. Those people were already hostile to atheists

and I can't think of anything that would soften their hearts.

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Response to Warpy (Reply #98)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 06:31 AM

132. And this badly thought out sign is going to help?

Nope.

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Response to cordelia (Reply #132)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 11:15 AM

165. We can see that it revealed YOUR hostility, so it really was well thought out, wasn't it.

I'd say it worked better than expected.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #165)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 11:49 AM

182. I just object to creating churn where and when it's

not necessary. That goes for the idiotic signs put up by Evangelical "christians" condemning Atheism. They are as stupid and divisive as this one.

That's all this sign accomplished - churn.

That, and fueling the peculiar hatred you and some others have for anything to do with religion, or anyone not as intolerant and close minded as you.

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Response to cordelia (Reply #182)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 12:08 PM

190. There it is! There is that christian love I hear so much about.

Perhaps a mirror is just the prescription you require.

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Response to cordelia (Reply #132)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 04:20 PM

246. You don't get it

Nothing helps. Atheists are just reaching out to each other.

While there are campaigns I like a lot better than this one, it is what it is.

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Response to cordelia (Reply #95)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 11:14 AM

164. That hostility already existed. If it did anything, it pulled back the curtain on that hostility.

And that hostility against atheists that exists everywhere, needs to be exposed at every opportunity.

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Response to cordelia (Reply #95)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 02:33 PM

219. I don't see how someone who is not hostile toward atheists would suddenly be filled with rage.

Of course some who are already hostile to atheists will become more hostile. That's the natural reaction of simple minded intellectual cowards when someone they don't like exercises their freedom of speech to try and give their viewpoint equal exposure.

I'm also not seeing what's so "mean" about suggesting that mythology should be left out of holiday celebrations. I don't necessarily agree, but it doesn't feel like any kind of attack.

Anyway, I actually like some of the Christmas mythology (both the Christian and rebranded non-Christian myths and traditions). Santa Claus, stockings hung over the fireplace, decorated tree and lights, elves, angels, and other mythological magical critters... it's all part of my holiday celebrations. Being with family and exchanges a few gifts are enjoyable to me too. So though I see they are trying to communicate how unimportant Jesus is to enjoying the holiday, I feel they missed their mark a bit with the message.

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Response to Taverner (Reply #84)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 02:40 PM

224. Oh, I see

 

So those billboard saying atheism is wrong convert people as well?

Do you really believe that?

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Response to AlexSatan (Reply #224)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 03:14 PM

232. Thing is, logically, if you spell it out, there is no god

 

Whereas religion relies on faith, which means belief without evidence

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Response to Taverner (Reply #232)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 03:50 PM

236. You belief in God or not is irrelevant

 

Do billboards convert people one way or another?

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Response to AlexSatan (Reply #236)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 05:08 PM

251. I was converted to a composter because of a billboard

 

But, in a big way, you are right. Advertising has lost any and all use in our over-culture-jammed society.

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Response to Taverner (Reply #84)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 02:05 AM

294. you don't make someone realize there is no God anymore than Christians make people realize

there is a God.

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Response to Ter (Reply #64)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 10:46 PM

89. I agree. nt

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Response to Ter (Reply #64)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 12:42 AM

104. This atheist agrees

I am very confused by atheists who believe that they need to confront religion and people who practice it.
I have no reason to care what anyone else believes what happens to their own soul and how they want to get right with their god. Their mythology is their business. And I definitely don't care what anyone thinks about me going to a hell I don't believe in. The fact is, there are more of them than me and I see no reason to throw my thoughts about it in their face.

Why would someone who disagrees with them feel the need to involve themselves in the personal beliefs of other people when most of us want to be free to not be a part of religion?

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Response to loyalsister (Reply #104)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 02:05 AM

120. I'll Tell You Why...

The other day I was asked why I should concern myself with the beliefs of others. I mean...why do I even care what other people believe? It's simple.

When Fundementalist Christains are in my government making policy that will impact my life as well as the lives of my children, you better believe I'm going to have something to say. If religious people would keep their beliefs to themselves, I would have no problem. But they tend to want everyone to believe as they do...in doing so, they force me to act against them.

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Response to WiffenPoof (Reply #120)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 02:14 AM

295. there is a difference in fighting for you freedoms and trying to eradicate religion

Martin Luther King Jr. didn't need to eradicate religion to get civil rights laws passed.

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Response to loyalsister (Reply #104)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 03:23 AM

122. Here's one answer to your question

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #122)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 10:37 AM

149. Not seeing the connection to what I was talking about

The sign is not an affront only to evangelical fundamentalists. It targets my friend and family who hold their beliefs in the mythology of christianity dear. It is their justification for opposing war and the death penalty. Some are pro-choice, some aren't. My grandma believes in a young earth, but my aunt doesn't. I respect their beliefs and they respect mine.
A single sign is not going to reform the public school system. It will, however lead to pain and defensiveness among people of faith.

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Response to loyalsister (Reply #149)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 11:11 AM

161. Anything short of utter silence on the part of atheists leads to pain and defensiveness among theist

This sign too led to protests of it being divisive, they all do no matter what they say.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #161)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 11:24 AM

173. Jeez

People are attached to their beliefs in god. They know you can't prove it, all they have to go on is their personal conviction. Telling people they should doubt what gives them hope and comfort is illogical and insensitive.
I would expect fellow atheists to be secure enough in their personal beliefs that they feel no need to publish them. The whole point of disbelief is that there is nothing to say about it. This kind of anger and defensiveness among atheists comes off as a belief system that is every bit as rigid as that of the most strident evangelicals.

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Response to loyalsister (Reply #173)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 02:50 PM

230. You know I've never knowingly met another atheist?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/121820137

I'm over sixty years old and have never been face to face with another person who I was sure that they were indeed an atheist.

I don't even have a clue where I would go to meet such a person.

On the other hand, if I want to meet a Christian we have over a dozen churches within a mile of my home, all of which have signs out the front advertising their presence.

People like to gather with like minded folks, I've never had the opportunity to do that and according to you I should never reveal that I am an atheist lest I cause distress to religious people.

I wonder how many of the Christians who surround me would manage to maintain their faith if they had never met another Christian?





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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #230)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 06:59 PM

260. Really?

"according to you I should never reveal that I am an atheist" No distinction between attacking other people's beliefs and passively mentioning your own? Unless of course you find impossible to mention your beliefs without trying to convert, and I doubt that is the case.

I have family members who are mormon, catholic, fundie, mainstream protestant, and friends who are Muslim, Jewish..... They don't make any effort to convert me, and I return the favor. I also have friends who are atheist. We all know it but there really isn't a whole lot to say about it. To me that's the nature of non belief.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #230)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 02:30 AM

297. talk to some young people

There are young atheists and young Christians who hang out together and are friends and who are respectful and tolerant of one another. I know. My daughter is an atheist and she has many Christian friends and they all know she is atheist.

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Response to loyalsister (Reply #104)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 11:19 AM

168. "Their mythology is their business." - If that were the reality of the world, you would have a point

But "their mythology is their business" really means it is their BUSINESS, as in, that's what they do. When they stop drafting legislation based on "their mythology", when they stop trying to teach "their mythology" in public schools, and when "their mythology" is no longer granted privileged status above all others, then you will have a point.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #168)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 01:12 PM

201. A public she sign is directed at public consumption

Not policy discussions. The "they" you are referring to are people in leadership positions. If you want to have discussions with them, why not do it tastefully as opposed to attacking the beliefs of people who lean on a mythology for comfort and guidance.
I have had conversations with clergy about my passive atheism. We had good conversations because no one was there to convince the other and no one got defensive. In fact, they had some of the same concerns as I about the institution of religion.

It's possible to challenge an institution without offending or diminishing the personal beliefs of people with whom you disagree.

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Response to loyalsister (Reply #104)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 02:21 AM

296. your post is the best post of the thread

My daughter is an atheist. She tries not to be militant about it. She fights for her freedoms but also tries to be respectful and tolerant. She has a lot of friends and family that she loves to be around too much to let their religion get in the way of having a relationship with them. One of her best friends in the whole world is Christian, and they all get along. She has many Christian friends. None of them fight over religion or lack thereof. It is always the young people who make the biggest difference in this world. They form friendships with people who are different than they are. It is they who bridge the gap and change hearts. It is they who change the world.

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Response to Ter (Reply #64)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 05:34 AM

131. Oh gimme a break.

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Response to Ter (Reply #64)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 09:39 AM

143. That's fine those fucking idiots are a dying breed...

Let them have one last HURRAH! before they see their kids say one day- meh, religion is SOOOO 20th century LOL

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Response to Ter (Reply #64)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 11:12 AM

163. "Very mean and militantly hostile"





You're joking, right?

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #163)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 04:04 PM

243. You can't see it

because you're in it, doing it.

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Response to Union Scribe (Reply #243)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 07:31 PM

261. Stop it Smalls, you're killing me!!!

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Response to Ter (Reply #64)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 10:59 AM

302. Of course, how could we have missed it for so long! It's the atheist's fault.

 


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Response to DaniDubois (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 09:07 PM

73. BTW the Obamas have no less than 54 Christmas Trees (not "Holiday Trees") in the White House,

as well as a Nativity Scene.

So nobody who celebrates Christmas should feel in any way "threatened".

http://www.whitehouse.gov/about/inside-white-house/holidays

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #73)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 10:51 PM

94. Don't tell the religious right that.

It will ruin their story about Obama being an anti-Christian monster.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #73)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:18 AM

310. I have heard right wingers

complain about the expense of those trees! I kid you not! They will find something wrong, somehow! Now that you've pointed that out, I'm going to say to the next one that point that at least they are celebrating Christmas and not making war on it and watch their heads explode. How can a Muslim celebrate Christmas?

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Response to treestar (Reply #310)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:34 AM

313. Well, I guess the 54 Christmas trees could be to throw us off the scent.....

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Response to DaniDubois (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 09:11 PM

75. Whatever.

There is no difference between someone saying, "My no-god is better than your god," and someone else saying "My god is better than your no-god (or some other god)".

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Response to DaniDubois (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 09:16 PM

78. As a christian I have no problem with this board. The locals complaining should spend their time

feeding the poor as Christ would.

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #78)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 09:18 AM

135. I wish I could rec this post

My mother says the same thing. She is a devout Catholic and spends her retirement living her religion, not preaching it.

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Response to DaniDubois (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 09:39 PM

85. Isn't the Crucifixtion more of an Easter thing?

I understand they are atheists and may be simply ignorant but wouldn't a Nativity be more appropriate for Christmas?

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Response to Bok_Tukalo (Reply #85)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 10:42 PM

88. It would, but people view the Nativity scene with such affection that

it would have been counterproductive to their mission.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #88)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 11:54 PM

99. There's a parade where I live close to Thanksgiving and Easter.

We have this church which has former Hells Angels in it. They're a good church. They help those who have probs with substance abuse and such. Anyway, their float every year is Jesus on the cross. I just keep thinking to myself "It's not Easter!"

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Response to Bok_Tukalo (Reply #85)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 10:45 AM

150. Ermmm.. have you seen where atheists rank in tests of religious knowledge?

It's not at the "ignorant" end by the way. The myth is the whole story, which incidentally does not even mention the time of year of the birth of Jesus, except to mention the shepherds were living outside with their flocks - which would not happen in midwinter.

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Response to DaniDubois (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 10:39 PM

87. god, protect me from your followers!

“The true beauty of the season—family, friends, and love—have nothing to do with the gods of yesteryear. Indeed, the season is far more enjoyable without the religious baggage of guilt and judgmentalism. Dump the myth and have a happy holiday season.”

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Response to DaniDubois (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 10:47 PM

91. Isn't it funny.....

How while they have no problem with Santa Claus, they have a problem with Jesus?

It's their right to freedom of speech. However, I think they put a lot of effort into something they don't believe in.

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Response to musical_soul (Reply #91)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 03:47 AM

123. Few adults base their political opinions on a profound belief in Santa Claus

Whereas there are a great many adults who base their politics on a profound belief in Jesus Christ.

That can be a not entirely pleasant thing to contemplate for people who think Santa and Biblical Jesus are of roughly equal likelihood.

An adult who actually seriously believed in the existence of Santa Claus and thought that Santa does all the things attributed to Him would be thought quite mad in our culture.

If you were as certain as you are that Santa is just a myth and lived in a culture where the majority of adults thought Santa was real you'd look a bit askance at the believers sometimes too when they just have to tell you all about the invisible and ineffable presents Santa is leaving under their tree on Christmas morning and that yes, He really *does* climb down the chimney that their apartment doesn't happen to have in order to leave those presents.

Who knows, maybe if your vehicle had been vandalized by Santaists who hated your bumper sticker that dared to imply Santa was not real maybe you'd be even a bit scared of Santaists.

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Response to musical_soul (Reply #91)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 09:41 AM

144. The difference is one is a fairy tale people know is made up, the other fairy tale

causes humans to do stupid shit....

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Response to musical_soul (Reply #91)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 08:14 PM

267. How many laws have been

passed by people believing in Santa? How many women go without health care do to old Saint Nick? Has Claus
mentioned homosexuality is an abomination. When these things happen I'll be against this fictional character too.

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Response to DaniDubois (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 11:06 PM

96. Is this really the most positive message?

They could said something like 'don't need a God to be giving' or something along those lines. I think they'd get more bang for their buck promoting the idea non theist are no less moral, rather mocking others.

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Response to SpartanDem (Reply #96)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 12:21 AM

100. Some group ran that kind of ad on buses

in Fort Worth, Texas a couple of years ago. "Millions of Americans are Good Without God." was what they said. I was living in an adjacent city at the time, and I remember it well. The religious folks (not all of them, of course, but a lot of them) raised an incredible stink over it, calling it a blantant attack on their beliefs, and calling for boycotts and such. The beseiged transit authority then decided to ban all ads with any religious content whatsoever. So, they succeeded in shutting down the atheists' ads, but now churches and other religious groups can't advertise on buses, either. Everyone loses, because the message "Millions of Americans are Good Without God" was just too offensive.

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Response to DaniDubois (Original post)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 01:43 AM

119. Oh the horror!! The poor Christians must feel so put-upon.

Maybe they could put up some of their own billboards or put signs in front of their churches or even declare national holidays for their special days. They must feel overwhelmed by this breach in their defenses. The souls that were lost because of that sign is a tragedy. No one should ever have to deal with conflicting ideas. How is anyone going to know the truth of the bible if someone is going to bring up conflicting ideas and actually make them think.

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Response to DaniDubois (Original post)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 04:08 AM

127. Oh my, how sensitive the fantasy believers are.

 


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Response to DaniDubois (Original post)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 04:18 AM

128. Santa is weird choice for the first pic, because Santa is a myth. nt

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Response to DaniDubois (Original post)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 05:08 AM

129. Good Evidence That Jesus Was A Myth Created By The Romans

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Response to DaniDubois (Original post)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 05:33 AM

130. I have no problem with the board but why feed the idiots at FOX?

This sort of thing just feeds the crazies at Fox and their yearly stupid war on Christmas propaganda ploy. It is something I can totally ignore since my television blocks FOX but am forced to listen to war on Christmas drivel from the various GOP relatives with whom I still speak. It would not surprise me someone at FOX funded or suggested this sign.

The radical Christian fringe is bad enough why don't they pick on other religions say Jews, Muslims, or say Animist.

If you do want to pick on a religious belief I suggest attack the religious idea that tax cuts to the ultra wealthy creates job and trickle down economics is in the best interest of the middle class.

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Response to DaniDubois (Original post)


Response to DaniDubois (Original post)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 09:26 AM

137. Ah, capitalism

It's a free market, right? Anyone can buy a sign and say whatever they want.

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Response to DaniDubois (Original post)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 09:26 AM

138. Everyone has "myths," even atheists. Not polite to rub it in people's faces.

It is also not polite for evangelical Christians to rub their religion in our faces by insisting we say "Merry Christmas" instead of "Happy Holidays." We can all agree on celebrating the spirit of Christmas, which is peace on earth and good will toward other people. No need for anyone to get belligerent about it, which is against that spirit, whether done by an atheist or an evangelical Christian.

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Response to yellowcanine (Reply #138)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 11:22 AM

170. Really? Like what? What myths do atheists share?

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #170)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 12:49 PM

199. Not saying atheists share the same myths. How did you get that?

Last edited Thu Dec 13, 2012, 01:41 PM - Edit history (1)

Atheism means they just don't believe in a deity. Doesn't mean that atheists don't have other myths. If you don't believe atheists can have myths, just read about Leninism. The Bolsheviks considered Lenin to be infallible. Sure sounds like a myth to me. Maoism had similar myths about Mao. There are right wing atheists who had myths as well. Ayn Rand was an atheist. She certainly promoted a grand organizing myth known as Objectivism and its corollary Laissez-faire capitalism.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #170)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 03:57 PM

238. That they're smarter than everyone else, for starters.

Here's another: that they're "opening people's eyes" by acting like emo party poopers.

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Response to DaniDubois (Original post)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 09:28 AM

139. The myth is the date, place and holiday.

There is enough evidence, however, to think there was an historical Jesus from Nazareth from a scholarly point of view.

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Response to mmonk (Reply #139)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 11:02 AM

154. What evidence is that? apart from the Bible that is?

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Response to mmonk (Reply #179)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 03:00 PM

231. I tend to lean towards him existing, but the links are pretty worthless on their own.

Maybe Bart Ehrman's book lays down a good argument, so I'll make a not of it and see if I can get it from the library, but there is not a single shred of evidence in either link for or against. It's basically an ad for his book without a single mention of any specific historical source whatsoever.

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Response to mmonk (Reply #139)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 11:02 AM

155. no evidence what so ever that he was some sort of magical being......

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Response to bowens43 (Reply #155)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 11:06 AM

156. This is true. I did not claim there was.

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Response to mmonk (Reply #156)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 02:43 PM

225. The date, place, holiday, miracles, words he supposedly said...

Honestly, I don't know of any particularly good evidence he existed as an actual ordinary man either. The only references I've seen beyond the bible are still quite awhile after he would have been around, and basically are nothing but a couple of ancient historians referencing Christian myths about him. So the evidence I'm aware of (though I'm not a historian) seems to be self referential to mythology.

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Response to Bradical79 (Reply #225)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 02:45 PM

228. Words that contradict the message or are problematic

for a Jewish sect or Christianity are likely real if they come from more than one source.

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Response to mmonk (Reply #228)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 03:17 PM

233. Not sure I understand

What sources are you talking about?

The sources that I'm aware of aren't problematic or contradictory in that they are either too vague to be sure who they are taling about with dates that don't match up to when he should have been alive, or are very likely a simple repetition of early Christian claims (Like Tacitus talking about him being crucified during the reign of Tiberius).

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Response to Bradical79 (Reply #233)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 04:10 PM

245. The Gospels, letters, etc. have many

events or quotes that Jesus supposedly said that don't add up to the claims of Christianity or Jewish antiquity (temple Judaism) and do not serve the themes of the Church as we have come to know it. Since they do not serve what Christians are trying to say, but are repeated by biblical sources, they may have some validity to the historical Jesus instead of the Jesus of the Church.

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Response to mmonk (Reply #139)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 11:22 AM

171. There is? Can you point me to where I might see this ecidence for myself?

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #171)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 11:42 AM

181. Here ya go.

Virtually all modern scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed, and biblical scholars and classical historians regard theories of his non-existence as effectively refuted. While there is little agreement on the historicity of gospel narratives and their theological assertions of his divinity most scholars agree that Jesus was a Galilean Jew who was born between 7 and 2 BC and died 30–36 AD. Most scholars hold that Jesus lived in Galilee and Judea, did not preach or study elsewhere and that he spoke Aramaic and may have also spoken Hebrew and Greek. Although scholars differ on the reconstruction of the specific episodes of the life of Jesus, the two events whose historicity is subject to "almost universal assent" are that he was baptized by John the Baptist and was crucified by the order of the Roman Prefect Pontius Pilate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

Plenty of links to peruse there.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #181)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 12:07 PM

189. .





I read it on the internet, so it must be true.

I see a bunch of people telling me jesus existed, but I see no proof of it at all

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #189)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 12:21 PM

192. More (actual books as opposed to the internet)......

^ a b c In a 2011 review of the state of modern scholarship, Bart Ehrman (now a secular agnostic who was formerly Evangelical) wrote: "He certainly existed, as virtually every competent scholar of antiquity, Christian or non-Christian, agrees" B. Ehrman, 2011 Forged : writing in the name of God ISBN 978-0-06-207863-6. page 285

^ Robert M. Price (a Christian atheist who denies the existence of Jesus) agrees that this perspective runs against the views of the majority of scholars: Robert M. Price "Jesus at the Vanishing Point" in The Historical Jesus: Five Views edited by James K. Beilby & Paul Rhodes Eddy, 2009 InterVarsity, ISBN 028106329X page 61

^ a b Michael Grant (a classicist) states that "In recent years, 'no serious scholar has ventured to postulate the non historicity of Jesus' or at any rate very few, and they have not succeeded in disposing of the much stronger, indeed very abundant, evidence to the contrary." in Jesus: An Historian's Review of the Gospels by Micjhael Grant 2004 ISBN 1898799881 page 200

^ a b Richard A. Burridge states: "There are those who argue that Jesus is a figment of the Church’s imagination, that there never was a Jesus at all. I have to say that I do not know any respectable critical scholar who says that any more." in Jesus Now and Then by Richard A. Burridge and Graham Gould (Apr 1, 2004) ISBN 0802809774 page 34

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #192)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 08:42 PM

269. They all use the bible as a source.

The bible is not a book of history, nor is it accurate about contemporary events. Using nonsense as one's source produces nonsense.


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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #269)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 08:57 PM

271. Amongst historians, the Bible is considered a valid secondary source....

Amongst historians, the Bible is considered a valid secondary source.... but then again, I imagine many people believe most historians "produce nonsense"

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #271)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 10:31 PM

278. I would challenge any historian that used the bible as a valid source to support an assertion

about historical events. While there may be particular factoids, especially about a small geographical area, it has nothing even remotely accurate as an historical record. It is nonsense. The number of things written in it about events of the time that are just plain wrong or never happened is enough to discredit it as a whole.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #278)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 04:07 AM

328. That's a false conclusion

People have been pulling the bible apart for thousands of years and have failed to discredit it as a whole. Almost every battle, person and geographical location described has been confirmed, through ages worth of cross referenced resources and careful archaeological study. Even if only 50% of the Bible could be accounted for, that's enough to consider it a good source for historical data. For thousands of years people thought the events in the Iliad were nothing more than mythology. Historians know better now, after uncovering loads of physical evidence on the topic.

In ancient history Jesus had more of his life accounted for than any other person. Oddly enough, some people seem to think he didn't exist. These are usually the same people who also believe the holocaust was made up despite countless witnesses and physical evidence. Religious people are suppose to be the delusional ones who elude reality. Ironic.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #269)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:27 AM

312. It's not just bible sources there are Roman historial

works that are highly regarded.

The writings of the 1st century Romano-Jewish historian Flavius Josephus include references to Jesus and the origins of Christianity. Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews, written around 93–94 AD, includes two references to Jesus in Books 18 and 20.
Of the two passages the James passage in Book 20 is used by scholars to support the existence of Jesus, the Testimonium Flavianum in Book 18 his crucifixion. Josephus' James passage not only attests to the existence of Jesus as a historical person but that some of his contemporaries considered him the Messiah.

The passage deals with the death of "James the brother of Jesus" in Jerusalem, and given that works of Josephus refer to at least twenty different people with the name Jesus, Josephus clarifies that this Jesus was the one "who was called Christ". Louis Feldman states that this passage, above others, indicates that Josephus did say something about Jesus.
Modern scholarship has almost universally acknowledged the authenticity of the reference in Book 20, Chapter 9, 1 of the Antiquities to "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James" and considers it as having the highest level of authenticity among the references of Josephus to Christianity.



The Roman historian and senator Tacitus referred to Christ, his execution by Pontius Pilate and the existence of early Christians in Rome in his final work, Annals (written ca. AD 116), book 15, chapter 44.
Scholars generally consider Tacitus's reference to the execution of Jesus by Pontius Pilate to be both authentic, and of historical value as an independent Roman source about early Christianity that is in unison with other historical records. Eddy and Boyd state that it is now "firmly established" that Tacitus provides a non-Christian confirmation of the crucifixion of Jesus. Although a few scholars question the passage given that Tacitus was born 25 years after Jesus's death, the majority of scholars consider it genuine. William L. Portier has stated that the consistency in the references by Tacitus, Josephus and the letters to Emperor Trajan by Pliny the Younger reaffirm the validity of all three accounts.

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Response to SpartanDem (Reply #312)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 12:18 PM

317. Christians will point to the Annals by Tacitus.

In the Annals XV,44, Tacitus describes how Nero blamed the Christians for the fire of Rome in 64 C.E. He mentions that the name "Christians" originated from a person named Christus who had been executed by Pontius Pilate during the reign of Tiberias. It is certainly true that the name "Christians" is derived from Christ or Christus (Messiah), but Tacitus' claim that he was executed by Pilate during the reign of Tiberias is based purely on the claims being made by the Christians themselves. They appeared in the gospels of Mark, Matthew and Luke, which had already been widely circulated when the Annals were being written. (The Annals were published after 115 C.E. and were certainly not written before 110 C.E.) Thus, although the Annals contains a sentence in which "Christus" is spoken of as a real person, this sentence was based purely on Christian claims and beliefs which are of no historical value. It is quite ironic that modern Christians use Tacitus to back up their beliefs since he was the least accurate of all Roman historians. He justifies hatred of Christians by saying that they committed abominations. Besides "Christus" he also speaks of various pagan gods as if they really exist. His summary of Middle East history in his book the Histories is so distorted as to be laughable. We may conclude that his single mention of Christus cannot be taken as reliable evidence of an historical Jesus.

Once Tacitus is dismissed, the Christians will claim that one of the younger Pliny's letters to the emperor Trajan provides evidence of an historical Jesus. (Letters X, 96.) This is nonsense. The letter in question simply mentions that certain Christians had cursed "Christ" to avoid being punished. It does not claim that this Christ really existed. The letter in question was written before Pliny's death in c. 114 C.E. but after he was sent to Bithynia in 111 C.E., probably in the year 112 C.E. Thus it provides nothing more than a confirmation of the trivial fact that around the beginning of the twelfth decade C.E. Christians did not normally curse something called "Christ" although some had done it to avoid punishment. It provides no evidence of an historical Jesus.

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Response to yortsed snacilbuper (Reply #317)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 03:52 PM

319. +infinity!

Bravo. Great research. Thanks.

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Response to DaniDubois (Original post)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 11:28 AM

176. This is why atheists continue to have an image problem.

Unfortunately, even for those atheists who don't feel the need to be confrontational in their, um, non-beliefs and are of the live and left live mindset.

For the record, I'm not offended by the billboard, no am I swayed by it in any direction. It's free speech, free expression, and if they want to waste the large sum of money to put it up there, power to them.

But it does come off as incredibly assholish. And if they want to brand themselves as assholes, well I guess that's their right to--WAIT! WAIT! WAIT!

A BRAND NEW SEASON OF COUGAR TOWN?

ON TBS?

STARTING JANUARY 8th?

GET OUT!!!!!!! STOP THE PRESSES EVERYONE!!!!!!

I'm sorry, where was I again?

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Response to Tommy_Carcetti (Reply #176)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:47 AM

326. Point taken

If I proclaimed myself an atheist, I would be offended to have someone making me look like an egotistical douche-bag. I can't stand it when religious people throw things like that in people's faces either. Everyone has their own ideas on what makes the universe tick and as much as one side likes to believe they have all the answers, they honestly don't. That leaves plenty of room open for the other half to fill in without either treading on each others territory.

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Response to Tommy_Carcetti (Reply #176)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 11:58 AM

333. So only religious people should advertise their beliefs but atheists should never speak up?

Why is that?

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Response to DaniDubois (Original post)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 12:01 PM

187. Score one for the good guys!

 

We're winning battles, but there's still a war to fight!


-666th Royal Antichrist Fusiliers

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Response to DaniDubois (Original post)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 12:38 PM

195. Do they have one for Hanukkah as well? Or are they afraid of Israel?

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Response to The Straight Story (Reply #195)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 01:16 PM

203. Judah Macabee was arguably a violent extremist, but he likely had an objective historical existence.

Jesus, mmmm, not so much.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #203)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 02:01 PM

213. Why?

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Response to DaniDubois (Original post)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 12:40 PM

196. I like truth in advertising

So I approve.

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Response to DaniDubois (Original post)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 01:14 PM

202. ZOMG!!! TEH FIEEEENDS! ZOMG O NO

THIS IS HUGH

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Response to DaniDubois (Original post)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 02:44 PM

226. The money for that billboard could have gone to the Atheist soup kitchens,

 

charities, homeless shelters and hospitals. Oh, wait.....

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Response to AlexSatan (Reply #226)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 04:00 PM

240. Lol.

Their money is apparently best spent telling people how dumb they are. Winning hearts and minds, you know.

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Response to DaniDubois (Original post)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 03:39 PM

234. There certainly are a lot of people telling me how best to celebrate a holiday...

There certainly are a lot of people telling me how best to celebrate a holiday...

I guess everyone wants to shove their views down our throats... even the one who complain about having views shoved down our throats.

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Response to DaniDubois (Original post)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 05:17 PM

253. 'atheists' who would bother to spend the money for this aren't really atheists. IOW: "Who cares?"


Those who really don't believe in deliverance by super-natural entities, aren't interested in arguing about it. That whole argument bores me.

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Response to Bill USA (Reply #253)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 10:02 PM

277. no true scotsman nt

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Response to DaniDubois (Original post)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 08:54 PM

270. It would be nice to define one's own beliefs without dumping on someone elses

I'm not and have never been Christian. I get a little tired of having the predominate religion thrust in my face constantly this time of year - which seems to get increasingly longer. But even still, I find that billboard rude, confrontational and unnecessary.

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Response to Matariki (Reply #270)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 12:10 PM

316. What about church signs that tell us we're going to burn if we don't believe?

There are countless confrontational messages on church marquees (Repent!, etc.) all over the country. They are dumping on my beliefs. Yet no on says anything against them.

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Response to Arugula Latte (Reply #316)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 12:42 PM

318. Those are so common, they don't attract much attention.

You even have people claiming never to have seen any such billboards or signs. I never know if the people who say that are lying or if they really are that oblivious. Of course, in addition to the signs that slam non-believers, there are the ones that condemn homosexuals, Muslims, women who've had abortions, etc. No one seems to be terribly bothered about those, either, with the exception of the ones from the Westboro Baptist Church.

Edited for clarity.

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Response to Arugula Latte (Reply #316)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:16 AM

322. Are you five years old?

because, the 'they did it first' is the type of argument I'd expect from a child not an adult

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Response to SpartanDem (Reply #322)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 04:29 AM

329. You know what? I'm nearly 50, and I've been hearing neverending noise about how "GOD IS REAL"

for basically the entire fucking time.

So spare me the bullshit hair-tearing and weepy cloth-rending that believers are going to melt into a blubbering pool of wounded emotional hurt if someone dares to occasionally say back, "NO HE'S NOT".

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Response to SpartanDem (Reply #322)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 11:57 AM

332. I'm just pointing out that there is poutrage over one sign in NYC

and yet religious zealots are never taken to task for advertising their beliefs all over. Atheists usually don't advertise their views in public (this type of sign is still very rare), and are often urged to keep their mouths shut even here on DU, yet religious people are never told to stop rubbing peoples' noses in their beliefs. It's a double standard.

Why is it childish to point that out?

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Response to DaniDubois (Original post)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 09:04 PM

272. What if somebody put up a billboard saying Santa Claus wasn't real?

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Response to DaniDubois (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 12:39 AM

281. I prefer the Good without God signs

It is a positive message for those who don't believe in God but doesn't dump on other people's beliefs.

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Response to DaniDubois (Original post)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 03:01 AM

298. Christianity has survived a lot more than silly signs.

 

This isn't even a bump in the road.

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Response to Zax2me (Reply #298)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 11:14 AM

307. Too bad that can't be said for so many other religions and their practitioners that xtianity

 

encountered in its history.

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Response to Zax2me (Reply #298)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:42 AM

325. True

They haven't started burning Jews and Christians alive in the streets; yet. lol

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Response to Zax2me (Reply #298)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 12:00 PM

334. Right, and no one ever tells them to shut up.

Even though their story "has grown tiresome."

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Response to DaniDubois (Original post)

Mon Dec 17, 2012, 04:30 AM

330. TEH FIENDS!~!!!!

O NO ZOMG O NO

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Response to DaniDubois (Original post)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 10:44 PM

335. I wonder if Joe McDonald knows about this one?

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