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Tue Dec 11, 2012, 08:04 PM

"We must close union offices, confiscate their money and put their leaders in prison.

We must reduce workers salaries and take away their right to strike" May 2, 1933 Adolf Hitler




102 replies, 16636 views

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Reply "We must close union offices, confiscate their money and put their leaders in prison. (Original post)
midnight Dec 2012 OP
limpyhobbler Dec 2012 #1
ItsTheMediaStupid Dec 2012 #11
Fantastic Anarchist Dec 2012 #75
socialist_n_TN Dec 2012 #2
Dont call me Shirley Dec 2012 #18
Tsiyu Dec 2012 #38
Hydra Dec 2012 #53
coalition_unwilling Dec 2012 #61
Hydra Dec 2012 #64
Tsiyu Dec 2012 #66
Hydra Dec 2012 #70
coalition_unwilling Dec 2012 #73
Hydra Dec 2012 #74
DhhD Dec 2012 #77
putitinD Dec 2012 #3
Cobalt-60 Dec 2012 #19
Occulus Dec 2012 #25
annabanana Dec 2012 #40
Hydra Dec 2012 #54
PatrynXX Dec 2012 #33
BobbyBoring Dec 2012 #47
caveat_imperator Dec 2012 #58
byeya Dec 2012 #4
Live and Learn Dec 2012 #31
Volaris Dec 2012 #49
lpbk2713 Dec 2012 #5
WinstonSmith4740 Dec 2012 #14
Turbineguy Dec 2012 #6
socialist_n_TN Dec 2012 #7
fuzzwald Dec 2012 #10
madinmaryland Dec 2012 #8
Dont call me Shirley Dec 2012 #16
Hydra Dec 2012 #55
macwriter Dec 2012 #9
freshwest Dec 2012 #12
gateley Dec 2012 #20
Jennicut Dec 2012 #44
freshwest Dec 2012 #46
Fantastic Anarchist Dec 2012 #79
freshwest Dec 2012 #80
Fantastic Anarchist Dec 2012 #81
freshwest Dec 2012 #93
Fantastic Anarchist Dec 2012 #98
freshwest Dec 2012 #99
Fantastic Anarchist Dec 2012 #101
John2 Dec 2012 #65
crazylikafox Dec 2012 #68
Politicub Dec 2012 #87
freshwest Dec 2012 #91
valerief Dec 2012 #13
harun Dec 2012 #71
Dont call me Shirley Dec 2012 #15
ReRe Dec 2012 #17
Squinch Dec 2012 #21
alfredo Dec 2012 #22
ErikJ Dec 2012 #23
heaven05 Dec 2012 #27
OldRedneck Dec 2012 #24
heaven05 Dec 2012 #26
The Wizard Dec 2012 #42
ErikJ Dec 2012 #28
Texas-Limerick Dec 2012 #29
heaven05 Dec 2012 #50
Texas-Limerick Dec 2012 #95
heaven05 Dec 2012 #97
OnyxCollie Dec 2012 #30
forward4freedom Dec 2012 #32
Hydra Dec 2012 #59
mark eagledove Dec 2012 #34
lonestarnot Dec 2012 #35
jtuck004 Dec 2012 #36
Bozita Dec 2012 #37
freshwest Dec 2012 #102
UCmeNdc Dec 2012 #39
Stewland Dec 2012 #41
Brickbat Dec 2012 #43
pangaia Dec 2012 #45
gringo43 Dec 2012 #56
pangaia Dec 2012 #88
former9thward Dec 2012 #82
pangaia Dec 2012 #89
Capt. Obvious Dec 2012 #48
uponit7771 Dec 2012 #51
jwirr Dec 2012 #52
forward4freedom Dec 2012 #57
coalition_unwilling Dec 2012 #60
NealK Dec 2012 #62
santamargarita Dec 2012 #63
The Wielding Truth Dec 2012 #67
socialist_n_TN Dec 2012 #83
Diclotican Dec 2012 #85
socialist_n_TN Dec 2012 #92
Diclotican Dec 2012 #94
LaPera Dec 2012 #69
KansDem Dec 2012 #72
sevenseas Dec 2012 #76
standingtall Dec 2012 #96
MrDiaz Dec 2012 #78
unionthug777 Dec 2012 #84
Politicub Dec 2012 #86
Diclotican Dec 2012 #90
Initech Dec 2012 #100

Response to midnight (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 08:05 PM

1. sounds like a real jerk.

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Response to limpyhobbler (Reply #1)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 09:00 PM

11. Sounds like a TEA bagger

Close enough, I guess.

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Response to ItsTheMediaStupid (Reply #11)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 05:15 PM

75. The new right-wing meme ...

... is to argue that the NSDAP were socialists. They really have no clue.

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Response to midnight (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 08:06 PM

2. Yep. But we can't call them fascist because we can't smell the stink......

of the death camps yet.

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Response to socialist_n_TN (Reply #2)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 09:14 PM

18. That's because we're all suffering and dying from diseases, so they don't need the death camps

this time.

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Response to Dont call me Shirley (Reply #18)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 02:41 AM

38. IF they can't get you addicted to

fourteen different medications first.

We are mined like meaty little, diseased ATMs. Until the money and the insurance run out...



Fascinating culture we have built....


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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #38)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 10:52 AM

53. I know, right?

I remember one of my teachers when I asked why the holocaust was worse than any other mass purge in history:

"Because they were so...logical and mechanical about it. They calculated the exact amount each person was worth for forced labor, they collected all of their valuables...they dehumanized people into a net worth."

Gee, doesn't ANYTHING like today, does it? Everyone was WAY too comfortable during the Reagan Era.

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Response to Hydra (Reply #53)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 12:00 PM

61. One other aspect your teacher may have neglected to mention or you may have

 

since forgotten:

the entire resources of the German state were marshaled toward the objective of genocide. Even when trains were badly needed to rush German soldiers to the Eastern Front, priority was given to the trains running to Auschwitz and the other killing centers in Poland.

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Reply #61)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 12:30 PM

64. My teacher honestly was surprised by my question

And was ill-equipped to answer it. I thought her gut reaction was a good one, personally, even if she never applied it to the current times. Goering's evaluator said something quite similiar- the feeling that the people doing this had no empathy for their victims. She simply added a technological angle which is also relevant.

There's something so innately disturbing about mass killings if you can muster even the smallest bit of common ground with the victims. It makes it hard for many people to study in detail, even educators. I hadn't heard your bit of information, but from it I can assume they thought they were going to lose and opted to do the most damage in the time they had left.

*sigh* Gotta love the history of human bullying, which continues unabated today.

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Response to Hydra (Reply #64)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 12:45 PM

66. It's a "sickness" they delight in suffering from

and beyond the capacity of normal, thinking people to contemplate.

When I started seeing Pharmco's advertise their stocks by claiming you could "get rich off diseases of your fellow man!!!" so...cold, so....calculated and insensitive and WRONG....I just got sick myself.

Some humans have no humanity.




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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #66)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 01:59 PM

70. I like how they put it in Alien Resurrection

Ripley: "You're a robot?...I should have known. No human being is that humane."

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Response to Hydra (Reply #64)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 04:14 PM

73. If you get the chance and have the time, there's a great book by a sociologist

 

at Harvard named Daniel Goldhagen called Hitler's Willing Executioners. He shows how the Germans, even as their military was getting pounded on both the western and eastern fronts, kept on killing Jews and engaging in behaviors that, to the outside observer, seem absolutely insane. (Goldhagen also pretty much demolishes the myth that the run of the mill German didn't know what was happening to the Jews.)

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Reply #73)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 04:34 PM

74. I don't know that I want to dunk my head in something like that at this point

But being the kind of person who asks his parents and teachers the questions I did, I am always curious as to what the parallels are between then and now are, so thank you for the recommendation.

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Response to Hydra (Reply #74)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 05:22 PM

77. Winds of War (1983) and War and Remembrance (1988) were two miniseries TV shows

we ordered through Netflix DVDs about Hitler and WWII. Its about 15 Episodes on 8 or 9 disc. There was very little about labor unions. There was a scene where towns people watched the execution of naked human beings/Jews shot/murdered and falling into a huge and deep mass burial grave. Later on in the movie series, the Germans were digging into the grave so as to burn the bodies to get rid of the evidence. International Holocaust Remembrance Day was Jan 27, 2012.

I am hoping that Hollywood will make a miniseries out of the Afghanistan and Iraq Wars.
Frontline already has, the Bush Wars, available through Netflix too.

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Response to midnight (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 08:13 PM

3. Republicans= modern day Nazi's

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Response to putitinD (Reply #3)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 09:17 PM

19. You're giving the pukes too much credit

They want to be Nazis.
The Nazis were a subset of Fascists.
And they sh*t bigger than Republicans.
The Pukes are more like the Italian fascists.
And they should all end up the same way.

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Response to Cobalt-60 (Reply #19)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 10:14 PM

25. If people keep saying "we're giving them too much credit"

we all may end up saying "we gave them too much time"

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Response to Occulus (Reply #25)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 07:18 AM

40. +1. . . .n/t

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Response to Occulus (Reply #25)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 10:54 AM

54. We've already given them too much time

Their mindset is now built into the system, so much so that many Democrats use their talking points.

"Sensible" Fascism.

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Response to putitinD (Reply #3)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 11:10 PM

33. Republican politicians that is

their base are just zombies... aaaaahhhhhhhh blahahahahaha

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Response to putitinD (Reply #3)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 10:19 AM

47. And yet

They think Nazis were lefties! What a bunch of dumb fucks!

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Response to BobbyBoring (Reply #47)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 11:51 AM

58. It's because they can't use 'nazi' and 'fascist' to describe themselves no matter how much they'd

like to due to the fact that normal people know that those political views are evil incarnate. That's why the rethugs keep using those words to describe the good guys (even though they secretly worship the ground and methods of those very same people they're comparing us to).

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Response to midnight (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 08:16 PM

4. Here's my understanding of the post war Social Contract: They - the bosses - will pay us a living

 

wage so we can become homeowners and send the kids to college and we - the workers - will refrain from stringing up the bosses and their flunkies from power poles.

It seems the Social Contract has been stretched if not broken.

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Response to byeya (Reply #4)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 11:06 PM

31. +1 nt

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Response to byeya (Reply #4)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 10:29 AM

49. Very true for America at this time...

but if you REALLY want to see the modern incarnation of the unavoidable outcome of that contract, wait another 20 or so years until the working Middle Class in CHINA figures out that the only thing they cant BUY with their newfound (and, by any measure, well-earned) wealth is a vote and a legitimate democratic process.

THAT will be some truly terrifying shit to watch go down. And the politboro in the Forbidden City damn-well knows it.

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Response to midnight (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 08:22 PM

5. But the rethuglicans weren't trade unionists ...




so they said nothing.


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Response to lpbk2713 (Reply #5)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 09:10 PM

14. And they won't,

until someone comes for them. Then they'll turn to us, beg forgiveness and tell us they were just "following orders".
And to that I say, fuck 'em.

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Response to midnight (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 08:25 PM

6. Yeah, I sure miss that guy.

Republicans come close, be he still did more harm.

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Response to Turbineguy (Reply #6)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 08:26 PM

7. Give it time.......

Give it time.

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Response to Turbineguy (Reply #6)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 08:56 PM

10. I hope you're not waiting until they do.

It happened in Germany, and it will happen here if we're not vigilant. It already has if you take slavery and native genocide into account.

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Response to midnight (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 08:26 PM

8. I was going to say that anyone who quotes...

Hitler has lost the argument, but that really hits home.

American Fascism.


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Response to madinmaryland (Reply #8)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 09:12 PM

16. Is that another meme promoted by the koch's and allies?

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Response to Dont call me Shirley (Reply #16)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 10:58 AM

55. Supposedly what happened in Germany was some sort of "exceptional" event

To me, it's the most banal and predictable thing in the world, and has been going on since we stopped moving in tribes.

I think we're not supposed to talk about it and understand what it really meant because people are planning on doing it again, and don't want people reading the signs.

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Response to midnight (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 08:43 PM

9. Ditto

The same things occurred to me when I first read it, but the comparison is undeniable.

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Response to midnight (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 09:01 PM

12. Read this by Thom Hartmann. The relationships are closer than one might think:

Thom Hartmann: Conservative Millennials, Boomers & Libertarians all being Conned

Multigenerational political influence by a very narrow special interest group is rare, but we're seeing it played out right now in front of us. A billionaire family - the Kochs - have gone from influencing my father's generation, to my generation, to my kids' generation - and very few Americans realize it. Daddy Koch - Fred - made his first millions palling around with Joe Stalin in the Soviet Union in the 1920s and 1930s. As the fascists rose to power in Europe in the 1930s, he was an enthusiastic supporter of Italian dictator Benito Mussolini, who invented the word "fascist," meaning essentially the takeover of democratic governments by big business interests. Mussolini went so far as to dissolve the Italian parliament, and replace elected politicians with representatives of each district's largest corporations. Fred Koch and Mussolini both particularly hated the trade unionists and their sometimes allies, the communists. So after Mussolini, along with his ally Hitler, lost World War II against America, Fred Koch brought the anti-communist pro-business-running-goverment - what some would call "facist" - torch to America big time, helping start the John Birch Society.

Two of their biggest efforts are pretty well known. After the Supreme Court ruled, in 1954, in the Brown versus Board of Education case, that segregation in schools was unconstitutional, the John Birch Society put up billboards all across America calling for the impeachment of the Chief Justice of the Court, Earl Warren. Daddy Fred Koch was very concerned about the integration of our schools - in fact, he wrote, "The colored man looms large in the Communist plan to take over America." With JFK's election, Fred Koch's John Birch Society went off again - this time against JFK. Using rhetoric not that different from the "secret Muslim" plots the Tea Party promotes about Obama, in a 1963 speech Fred said that " infiltrate the highest offices of government in the U.S. until the President is a Communist, unknown to the rest of us.”

When JFK was scheduled to come to Dallas that year, the JBS distributed flyers saying, "Wanted, for Treason" all around the town two days before his arrival. On the day JFK was assassinated, large ads ran in the Dallas newspapers attacking Kennedy as being soft on Castro, among other things. That was my dad's generation. Daddy Koch died, and his sons Charles and David took over the family business of promoting the business and billionaire takeover of our American government.

They're doing it with a two-pronged attack. For people over forty, they're funding the Tea Party through a variety of groups, most notably Americans for Prosperity and Freedomworks. And for people under forty, they're funding Libertarian think tanks, like the Charles Koch Foundation (which was renamed as the Cato Institute), and the Reason Foundation, where David Koch is a trustee, which happily embraces a new generation of young people with the idea that "freedom" means the "freedom" to buy politicians and the "freedom" to pollute. For the young people, of course, the Libertarians throw in the "freedom" to smoke dope and hire a hooker, but those are just bones being cynically tossed to young potheads and young protoge's of Dick Morris.

But the Koch's have been inside the Libertarian movement from its beginning - 32 years ago this year, David Koch was the Libertarian Party's official candidate for Vice President of the United States. It's really pretty incredible, but it's all true. The main agenda of the Koch's John Birch Society was to enhance the power and control of our government by big business and billionaires, while fighting organized labor and people like me who were protesting the Vietnam War. The main agenda of the Koch's Tea Party is to get millionaires elected to Congress and have them cut taxes and regulations for Koch Industries and other polluting corporations, while fighting organized labor and people like me who were protesting the Iraq War.

And the main agenda of the Koch's Libertarians - again, funded and trained by the Koch Brothers - is to keep intact the power of big money over our government, cut taxes and regulations on billionaires and polluting industries, while fighting organized labor and people like me who are protesting the corporate takeover of the United States of America. Three generations of Americans, all duped by the same billionaire family. Three generations buying into the idea that "what's best for industry and billionaires is best for America" - and that government is our "enemy" rather than something that our nation's founders fought and died to create for all of "We The People" And, increasingly, it's not just the Koch family. The Walton family - whose combined wealth is greater than 40 percent of all Americans - funded a covert campaign to rename the estate tax as the "death tax" and lobbied so hard they got the estate tax eliminated entirely in 2010.

Senator Bernie Sanders pointed out yesterday that - so far - we know of 26 billionaires - worth over $146 billion - who have already "invested" or committed to invest over $561 million dollars in this election cycle - most of it to defeat Democrats who want to raise their taxes. The good news is that young people are waking up and realizing that the Libertarian hustle the billionaires are feeding them is just that - a hustle. Just like Tea Partiers are waking up to their having been had by billionaires who want to privatize their Social Security. Hopefully, soon, America will regain its sanity and we'll go back to viewing cranky billionaires the way my Dad's generation did - as Republican President Dwight D. Eisenhower did - when Eisenhower referred to their ilk as "small in number and stupid" They're not stupid any more, and if we really value American traditions, we really must push back on this kind of power and influence in American politics...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/101744227

That's the transcript of the video, for those on dial-up, complete. For those on broadband, you can watch the video by going to the DU link above.

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Response to freshwest (Reply #12)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 09:26 PM

20. Excellent -- thanks!

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Response to freshwest (Reply #12)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 09:37 AM

44. Incredibly in depth.

And incredibly scary.

Technically, it is 4 generations they have influenced. Us Gen Xer's always seem to be left out, being smaller in number. But great article on how the Koch family has had influence over many in our government since the 1940's. One big con game.

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Response to Jennicut (Reply #44)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 10:10 AM

46. Not only the government. Mainly voters. I'ved lived in these years and saw how they manipulated.

The Gen Xers have not gone without being influenced. The Tea Party mirrors the increase in Libertarianism, which many youngsters regard as the ultimate in freedom with TEOTWAWKI thinking, and is guiding many. After years of their right wing indoctrination has led to a disdain for gettting involved with politics for the better as RFK, Jr. for example. Many are thinking they can go it alone, which is just what the Koches want us to embrace, a libertarian society with no safety net or regulations. That is where it leads. It's when those with a sense of history and not just the CT history fed by patriot radio and youtube, show that transforming government is the most powerful tool for change there is. The Tea Party certainly did so, and for the worse. Now we are learning how directly they affected our everyday lives, we must counter them as voters on election day did, voting for a man the Koch-loving media and the religious right didn't give a chance and fought all the way since 2009. The Koch brothers paid $400million to defeat Obama, and they are not done yet. Many people of all generations have embraced their different brands.

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Response to freshwest (Reply #46)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 05:35 PM

79. Just an FYI ...

...There's a Left Libertarian movement in this country, too, with it's roots in European libertarianism which is left-wing.

Not disagreeing with your post, as it was a good one, but felt it important to make the distinction.

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Response to Fantastic Anarchist (Reply #79)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 06:56 PM

80. That's not what libertarians are in this country. We have to deal with what we have:

Chomsky: Here, libertarian means extreme advocate of total tyranny."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002881627

Chomsky refutes "libertarian" "anarcho"- capitalism



My comment there:

How Freedom Became Tyranny

By George Monbiot, published in the Guardian 20th December 2011

Rightwing libertarians have turned “freedom” into an excuse for greed and exploitation.

Freedom: who could object? Yet this word is now used to justify a thousand forms of exploitation. Throughout the rightwing press and blogosphere, among thinktanks and governments, the word excuses every assault on the lives of the poor, every form of inequality and intrusion to which the 1% subject us. How did libertarianism, once a noble impulse, become synonymous with injustice?

In the name of freedom – freedom from regulation – the banks were permitted to wreck the economy. In the name of freedom, taxes for the super-rich are cut. In the name of freedom, companies lobby to drop the minimum wage and raise working hours. In the same cause, US insurers lobby Congress to thwart effective public healthcare; the government rips up our planning laws(1); big business trashes the biosphere. This is the freedom of the powerful to exploit the weak, the rich to exploit the poor.

Right-wing libertarianism recognises few legitimate constraints on the power to act, regardless of the impact on the lives of others...

http://www.monbiot.com/2011/12/19/how-freedom-became-tyranny/

Highplainsdem's OP:

It’s Hip! It’s Cool! It’s Libertarianism!

Last edited Wed Aug 1, 2012, 01:18 AM USA/ET

Calling yourself a libertarian today is a lot like wearing a mullet back in the nineteen eighties. It sends a clear signal: business up front, party in the back. You know, those guys who call themselves “socially liberal but fiscally conservative”? Yeah. It’s for them.

Today, the ruling class knows that they’ve lost the culture wars... libertarianism is their last ditch effort to ensure a succession to the throne... With such a bleak economic forecast for the Millennials, it shouldn’t surprise anyone that our elites want to make “libertarianism” shorthand for “political disaffection.” Now there’s a demographic with some growth potential. And it’s inspired a lot of poorly-sourced, speculative babble about how “the kids have all gone Galt,” almost always through the personal anecdotes of young white men.

A couple of months ago, after Harvard released a poll on the political views of Millennials, libertarians took to the internet to tell the world how the youth of America was little more than a giant anarcho-capitalist sleeper cell–ready to overthrow the state and privatize the air supply at a moment’s notice. So I took a look at the poll numbers. And you know what? It’s utter horseshit.

Right off the bat, we’re told that 79% of Millennials don’t consider themselves politically-engaged at all so, uh, keep that in mind.

Much is made of the fact that less than half of the survey respondents thought the government should provide free health care to those who can’t afford it. What they don’t mention is that that number (44 percent) is twice the percentage who say they stand against (22 percent) such “hand outs.” Nearly a third didn’t think one way or the other...

None of this should be too surprising. For almost two decades, roughly two-thirds of the American public have supported what we’d call a moderate European welfare state—putting the average U.S. citizen significantly to the left of the Democratic party...

But hey, our ruling class would shit a brick if any of that wealth redistribution stuff happened over here. Which is why “this is a center-right nation” has been a favorite Fox News talking point for over ten years... But libertarianism? Our ruling class is totally fine with that. Smoke your reefer and sodomize whomever you please, just keep your mouth shut and hand over your Social Security account.

Here’s the real reason libertarians hate the idea. The welfare state is a check against servility towards the rich. A strong welfare state would give us the power to say Fuck You to our bosses— this is the power to say “I’m gonna work odd jobs for twenty hours a week while I work on my driftwood sculptures and play keyboards in my chillwave band. And I’ll still be able to go to the doctor and make rent.”

Sounds like freedom to me.

http://exiledonline.com/its-hip-its-cool-its-libertarianism/

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021055465

Charles Koch ran on the Libertarian ticket and the Koch Brothers funded the Liberatarian Cato Institute. Ron Paul ran on the Libertarian ticket. He and his son Rand Paul and Paul Ryan and the rest of the crew out to destroy the government for freedom and liberty for the rich have destroyed this nation. Ayn Rand would be proud.

That was just what I found on DU, there's a lot more that give the reasons why Teabaggers, like the Patriot Movement identify as Libertarians. From wikipedia, I expect this is what you want:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism

I think the articles posted above show that it ends up in the end, being exactly what the rich want, by destroying the buffer between the common people and the powerful. It may sound great, but would result in feudalism with flowery language.

It took government reformation to fight the powerful corporate and religious institutions that profited from slavery and denied women the right to vote or own their bodies. Nothing is going to eliminate those forces from society any time soon. So something must be maintained to fight them off. For those wealthy males with means, getting rid of the government might not hurt.

Anyway. I doubt either of us will agree. EOM.


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Response to freshwest (Reply #80)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 07:13 PM

81. You must have misunderstood my post.

I was referring to the left-wing libertarian movement, of which Noam Chomsky is a part of. I'm not referring to anarcho-capitalism which is contradictory and mutually exclusive. One can't be a capitalist and an anarchist. Anarchism strives to smash the state and capitalism, and it sees both as inextricably tied - something which we disagree with our Marxist comrades (they see the utility in using the state to smash capitalism). Not sure what was confusing about my initial post as I clearly referred to left-wing libertarianism which I thought an important distinction to make. Anarchism, specifically, is just one of many traditions within the socialist umbrella.

Hope that clears that up.

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Response to Fantastic Anarchist (Reply #81)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 09:30 PM

93. I am more of a socialist than anything else. The only party working imperfectly, to create a

Social Democracy, is the Democratic Party. It is pretty much what this nation was working toward until Reagan. The promoters of libertarianism in this country have take us near the last stages of fascism and we don't have much time.

I understand you better, but the word libertarian as it is understood and used in this country to steal and destroy lives is an abomination to me. It is using the philosophy to give a sense of integrity to a form of predatory capitalism and a social order that is destroying the planet and everything I hold to be worth while.

I don't want people being decieved by what was once a great philosophy. It has been twisted. At this time, it's not a sufficient opposition to the fascism we are facing. We could discuss what we want in a future that we are at the brink of, or face the hard facts that confront us now.

Some times, we are confronted with a problem that is so large that we have wait to have some of the things we treasured, and resist what is going to enslave us for good. I think the world is ready to move away from war; that it wants equality; but at the same time I can't sit back and use the most effective tools I have to resist the feudalism from privatization that is encircling us now.

Libertarianism of any flavor does not address this problem now. It is the fruit of a society that has moved out of the darkness, and may come to pass. But what is being forced on us now cannot afford a movement that is ill-equipped because it is unorganized. The authoritarians who have been tearing us down are ready for us.

We must be organized and are currently unable to even protect collective bargaining and the beliefs that are a positive libertarianism, such as a woman's body is hers. It does not address the religious dogma, intolerance and violence. It assumes a reality not yet in our grasp.

Freedom of Association as defined by the Wiki entry and conservative libertarians, does not apply to racial inequality or women. In the heart of some it may, but in practice, no. You're talking about utopia but we are fighing off hell. I respect your heart, but this is not the route for me, we don't have the time.

So you continue as you will, but I'm not fond of the concept of libetarianism as the solution to what is happening. A native state of anarchy is an appealing philosophy, but it had to go through the stages of society as defined by Marx. They were miserable periods, and throwing that away could fail to bring anything of value. Anarchy of the liberated kind does not address the masses who refuse and attack those seeking a peaceful existance. That is how societies evolved.

We have a certain state of things on this planet that is both life giving and destroying. We are living in what I see as more of technocracy in which the operation could rightly be termed corporate anarchy with no goverment to stop them from doing as they will. The ownership of the technology remains in the hands of the plutocrats and they will not surrender.

At this time I would like to end this reply with something profound, but I can't think of anything to say that would make you understand where I'm at in this process. Let's abandon the terms and have a good evening.

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Response to freshwest (Reply #93)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 04:35 PM

98. Interesting ...

I am more of a socialist than anything else. The only party working imperfectly, to create a

Social Democracy, is the Democratic Party. It is pretty much what this nation was working toward until Reagan. The promoters of libertarianism in this country have take us near the last stages of fascism and we don't have much time.


I am a socialist, too, in the anarchist tradition.

As far as social democracy, I hate to say this, but the Democratic Party is not trying to create a "social democracy" politically, or economically. Yes, there are individuals who are, but the party in general is not. They are working to perfect a kindler, gentler neo-liberal economic model, and yes, they are more lax on political and social issues. Neo-liberal policies are the enemy of the working man and woman.

As for libertarianism, right-wing libertarianism is only concerned about economic libertarianism, and even then, it's their conception to freely exploit workers and the under-class. They're not interested in true social libertarianism or political libertarianism. The Teabaggers are nothing but fascists masquerading as libertarians.

However, as I've stressed before, there is a left-wing libertarian movement that is concerned with social, political, and economic equality. I'm sorry that you don't want to acknowledge its existence (you did cite Chomsky, so you surely know it exists).

I understand you better, but the word libertarian as it is understood and used in this country to steal and destroy lives is an abomination to me. It is using the philosophy to give a sense of integrity to a form of predatory capitalism and a social order that is destroying the planet and everything I hold to be worth while.


That's why I won't let my enemy frame the argument for me. The original libertarian movement from Godwin to Warren to Thoreau was and is a left-wing movement. Just because Barry Goldwater co-opted the name, or because some people are clueless and want to enact the "predatory" capitalism they so crave, doesn't give them the right to redefine the term. The only point I was trying to make, in the least, is that there is a distinction between left-wing and right-wing libertarianism.

I don't want people being decieved by what was once a great philosophy. It has been twisted. At this time, it's not a sufficient opposition to the fascism we are facing. We could discuss what we want in a future that we are at the brink of, or face the hard facts that confront us now.


I don't want people being deceived by the philosophy either. That's why I made the distinction. And not to put to fine a point on it, but the left-wing libertarian movement is about the only opposition to fascism in this country.

Some times, we are confronted with a problem that is so large that we have wait to have some of the things we treasured, and resist what is going to enslave us for good. I think the world is ready to move away from war; that it wants equality; but at the same time I can't sit back and use the most effective tools I have to resist the feudalism from privatization that is encircling us now.


No one is asking you to.

We must be organized and are currently unable to even protect collective bargaining and the beliefs that are a positive libertarianism, such as a woman's body is hers. It does not address the religious dogma, intolerance and violence. It assumes a reality not yet in our grasp.


I agree. There are people organizing. From the unions to occupy to student movements.

If you are a worker, or have been a worker, or will be a worker, why not consider joining one of the unions that have made a lot of headway in terms of Labor Rights at the turn of the last century; the Industrial Workers of the World (One Big Union). Our membership has decreased, but we could use the help.

http://www.iww.org

Freedom of Association as defined by the Wiki entry and conservative libertarians, does not apply to racial inequality or women. In the heart of some it may, but in practice, no. You're talking about utopia but we are fighing off hell. I respect your heart, but this is not the route for me, we don't have the time.


I'm not sure what you're talking about. Without the freedom of association, you can't do anything about racial or gender inequality. Them's the facts. Freedom of association is essential to us organizing and agitating for the things that the working class needs and wants. Racial and gender inequality opponents require the freedom to associate in order to fight these social ills.

So you continue as you will, but I'm not fond of the concept of libetarianism as the solution to what is happening. A native state of anarchy is an appealing philosophy, but it had to go through the stages of society as defined by Marx. They were miserable periods, and throwing that away could fail to bring anything of value. Anarchy of the liberated kind does not address the masses who refuse and attack those seeking a peaceful existance. That is how societies evolved.


I'm not sure what you are saying here. Anarchists don't believe in Marx's determinism. We create the reality from organic, grassroots organizing. We don't wait for some predetermined era for us to achieve class consciousness.

David Graeber illustrates this difference with this quote:

Marxism has tended to be a theoretical or analytical discourse about revolutionary strategy. Anarchism has tended to be an ethical discourse about revolutionary practice.

You can learn more about anarchism by Daniel Guerin in his Anarchism: From Theory to Practice (Introduction by Noam Chomsky). It's well worth the read about the history of the Labor Movement and its struggles to achieve the things you and I take for granted now such as the 8 hour workday, holidays and weekends off, and improvement of child labor laws. Anarchists fought and died for these things. When they were agitating for these things in Chicago at the Haymarket Square, some were rounded up, given kangaroo trials and executed for what we now take for granted. Adolf Fischer, one of the Haymarket martyrs even proclaimed, just before he was hanged, "Hoorah for anarchy! Today is the greatest day of my life!" Try telling him his actions were "utopian" or "failed to bring anything of value."

We have a certain state of things on this planet that is both life giving and destroying. We are living in what I see as more of technocracy in which the operation could rightly be termed corporate anarchy with no goverment to stop them from doing as they will. The ownership of the technology remains in the hands of the plutocrats and they will not surrender.


I agree, and neither will I.

At this time I would like to end this reply with something profound, but I can't think of anything to say that would make you understand where I'm at in this process. Let's abandon the terms and have a good evening.


No need to end something profoundly. I think it is important to have these discussions. Be well and best of luck.

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Response to Fantastic Anarchist (Reply #98)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 05:44 PM

99. I won't convince you of anything. The Democratic Party is saving lives now, not theoretically.

The social safety net that is the basis of a social democracy is their engine. I have been a union member, steward and support them, but they are not Libertarians, they are in the job right now supporting the version of social democracy that we have here. From a rant of mine, which you will not respect, because it's not ideological enough to suit, I suspect. But we are out here and we are working, daily:

The Libertarian Party platform, is that those in need can survive on charity, and the government must go away. Not only that, but Social Security must go away, which is what is keeping millions of people right now from being hungry and homeless. Occupy and other less organized groups cannot address this level of need and it's disrespectful to those unions doing the jobs now to clalm they will.

We are talking about well over a hundred million people getting the essentials of life right now. Not everyone needs these long-term:

In 2012, over 56 million Americans will receive $778 billion in Social Security benefits.

http://www.ssa.gov/pressoffice/basicfact.htm

Medicaid is the nation’s largest health program in terms of number of recipients, serving 56 million to Medicare’s 48 million.

http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/health/diseasesconditionsandhealthtopics/medicaid/index.html

More than a third of Americans lived in households receiving government assistance in 2010.

http://money.cnn.com/2012/02/07/news/economy/government_assistance/index.htm

More than 46.6 Million Americans Participated in SNAP in June 2012

http://frac.org/reports-and-resources/snapfood-stamp-monthly-participation-data/

The Libertarian Party Platform on Welfare:

http://www.lp.org/issues/poverty-and-welfare

The Libertarian Party Platform on Health care:


http://www.ontheissues.org/celeb/Libertarian_Party_Health_Care.htm

Libertarian ideas Democrats do not believe:

Libertarians believe that taxes should be abolished along with all the programs and departments that taxes fund. Libertarians don’t believe in Medicare. Libertarians don’t believe in Social Security. Libertarians don’t believe that there should be fire departments, police departments, public transportation, grants for education, unemployment, disability, food stamps, and every other type of government system and assistance that you can think of.

Libertarians wish to eliminate taxes in order to eliminate all of the above programs and more. Libertarians believe that without these taxes, individuals will have more money in their pockets and will be able to afford all of these things. If someone is unable to provide themselves or their family with school, health care, or food, people need to rely on family members, church, or a private charity.

Libertarians believe that government’s role in the market should be to protect property owner’s rights. There should be no FDA, equal employment opportunities, unions, minimum wage, payroll taxes, safe food handling requirements, consumer protections, regulations that protect against financial conflicts of interest and fraud, and business licenses.

Libertarians believe that business owners should have the right to deny entry to minorities and/or women and/or people with disabilities, if that is how business owners wish to run their businesses.


http://deni-edwards.hubpages.com/hub/Defining-a-Libertarian-Ron-Pauls-Political-Platform

Social Security and Medicaid keeps millions of peopl you cite will never meet, and have no idea exist, off the streets. They disapprove of those doing the work to keep them alive and well, because it's a 'statist' thing, not ideologically pure, which is easy for them.

Democrats are and will continue to help many more people than private groups ever will. The GOP who are Libertarians, plan to end all government so there will no votes needed, just be connected to the biggest boss you can find.

Here's another link:

http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2012/02/federal-benefits-able-bodied-workers

Now we are done. You are willing to ignore these statistics and attack Democrats for what you say they are doing or not doing well enough. I don't have the luxury of living on ideology. I am a 'statist Democratic Party' member working to keep people alive I know, and to support what works for them, and the public workers in the unions that do the work. Adios.



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Response to freshwest (Reply #99)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 07:15 PM

101. Wow, you so missed my point ...

... I'm considering if you read my post at all. Talk about being dogmatic!

Adios, indeed!

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Response to freshwest (Reply #12)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 12:42 PM

65. Finally somebody

 

researched what is really behind the Republican Party movement. That is why I have come to believe the Republican Party is dangerous. History can tell you a lot. A similar takeover happened in Germany without people realizing it. The impeachment of Clinton, and people accepting torture and the Go it Alone if you are not with us philosophy from George W. Bush.

This last Election also reveals lying is acceptable now in the Republican Party, as well as threatening workers, whom to vote for. Our Attorney General just stood by and let it happen because he was cowered by the pressure of the Right wing Republican Party. Eric Holder is in a position to use his office to go after the Republican Party when they break civil rights of others. And let me say something about a certain Supreme Court Justice that President Lincoln went after and had arrested. I would do the same to a certain Justice sitting in the Supreme Court now when he compares Homosexuality to murder. I'm not a Homosexual but I know the difference in murder. That seems to me, a bias towards sexual orientation by a person sitting on the Court.

We had certain American citizens with religious affiliations advocating genocide of Homosexuals in Uganda. To me that is advocating murder or inciting it. So I'm not afraid to compare this to the Nazis because I studied the rise of the Third Reich. Their philosophy was based on supremacy. I see no difference, when a Party characterizes others as moochers,lazy and takers. Also when they use language such as self deport or keeping a certain Territory from statehood based on Race.

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Response to freshwest (Reply #12)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 12:58 PM

68. bookmarked. thank you.

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Response to freshwest (Reply #12)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 08:20 PM

87. Working for Koch Industries must be miserable

They openly hate working folk. I'm sure they show the same respect to their employees.

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Response to Politicub (Reply #87)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 08:50 PM

91. There was a piece here on DU about them being abusive. And there is that kidnap story.

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Response to midnight (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 09:04 PM

13. Sounds like our Congress. nt

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Response to valerief (Reply #13)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 02:47 PM

71. Glad you said it. It isn't like we have a lot of Dem's on our side on this either.

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Response to midnight (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 09:10 PM

15. Don't forget Prescott Bush funded Hiltler, the bush family fascists.

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Response to midnight (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 09:14 PM

17. We have been taught as a society to not remember the past, but....

...quotes are quotes. He said it. And we can't deny that what he said in this quote is happening in our country. Period. Also, we know that he was an evil SOB and unknown millions of people the world over were killed under his rule. Fuck that SOB, but he said it. We cannot deny that this is what is happening here....

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Response to midnight (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 09:32 PM

21. k and r

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Response to midnight (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 09:47 PM

22. Hitler might have not said that but he did go after unions as

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Response to midnight (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 09:55 PM

23. And they did; May Day 1933

On May Day the Nazis befriended the union leaders and got invited to their offices. The SS troops then arrested them and demolished their offices.

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Response to ErikJ (Reply #23)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 10:21 PM

27. and

either killed the union leaders right away or sent them to a concentration camp for the slow death. It happened once, it can happen again.

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Response to midnight (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 10:08 PM

24. Are you sure that's a quote from Hitler?

Sounds to me like something Ohio Governor Snyder or Wisconsin Governor Walker would say.

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Response to midnight (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 10:18 PM

26. oh

now we are beginning to see the creeping nazification of amerikkka are we? A few months back myself and a few others were pointing out the nazi tendencies being shown by the tea pukes and their republican puppets. Oh god the reaction to that was like me standing in the middle of a fundamentalist church and calling jesus the illegitimate child of mary. Well I'm glad to see that a few more of you see. Yes, they will come for us if they gain the power over people that they crave. I won't go quietly. This country is slowly going to hell in a hand basket. Our current POTUS is just a stopgap for a few years. These fuckers won't quit until they are forced to quit.

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Response to heaven05 (Reply #26)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 08:50 AM

42. Sterilization

would be a good start.
The good news: The states with the worst health statistics are refusing Obamacare.

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Response to midnight (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 10:27 PM

28. 12,000 Corporate lobbyists. We need some lobbyists for the WE the PEOPLE!

Oh wait, that's UNION lobbyists. And THAT's why the corporations want to kill the unions!

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Response to midnight (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 10:29 PM

29. Would Nazis, Good Republicans Make?

 


Republicans and Nazis we should never compare
To do so would be outrageous and unfair!
But there's a question that continually keeps me awake
Would old Nazis good Republicans make?

Republicans could never be Nazis, for goodness sake!
But could Nazis, in the Grand Old Party, ever partake?
Could the founding fathers of the Thousand Year Reich
Adapt to the party of a Thousand  Points  of Light?

Given some thought, it's not so unfeasible 
Even President Eisenhower thought it conceivable
When he found Wernher Von Braun hiding in the thistles
Only to make him father of NASA and our ballistic missiles

Given that example, why couldn't more rehabilitate their brand?
This time, be good soldiers for the Republican high command 
Wouldn't Rommel, a Panzer Commander of Field Marshal rank
Be equally comfortable running a right wing think tank?

Or Joseph Goebbels, charged to propagandize and flummox
Could become a talking head  with his own show on Fox
Eichmann and his concentration  camp guards
Would be pole watchers, checking our registration cards

And those entitlement programs that never really worked
Our leaders bold proposals they've flip flopped and shirked 
Would Nazis be like these windsocks and spin it?
Or would they throw grandma off the cliff?  ...In a Wehrmacht minute!

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Response to Texas-Limerick (Reply #29)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 10:35 AM

50. yes

and teapukes would be their brown shirts or the other way around. Oh never mind either way fits the poem and scenario. Poem bookmarked so that when the american nazis take over by hook AND crook, I'll be able to print it out and pass it around as I told you so. I've been thinking like this every since raygun and nancy were POTUS really. Great thinking! prescience?

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Response to heaven05 (Reply #50)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 10:37 PM

95. Good comments!

 

The Republicans have become less a political party, and more a crime family through the years. Whether they become the Nazis, the Mafia, or whaterever, it won't be good for the USA. Anyone who reads their own words at Storm Front or Free Republic should agree.

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Response to Texas-Limerick (Reply #95)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 09:50 AM

97. I have

and exactly. Back atcha!

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Response to midnight (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 10:33 PM

30. When L. Paul Bremer and Coalition Provisional Authority

took over in Iraq, the few laws that remained intact were those prohibiting unions.

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Response to midnight (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 11:07 PM

32. I think this is as much about patriarchy vs freedom from patriarchy as anything...

...They allow the male dominated police and fireman jobs but not the female dominated teacher jobs.

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Response to forward4freedom (Reply #32)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 11:55 AM

59. Welcome to DU!

And yes, the women will get burned first and more, but there will be enough to go around. Child labor laws? Who needs 'em!

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Response to midnight (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 11:34 PM

34. reading "Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" right now

should be required reading for all HS students. The parallels are NOT a coincidence.

couple examples: Hitler not only hated unions but he loved to rage against "secularism". See Bill OReilly and every tax exempt religious media outlet who do the same day in day out. Also, the author debunks the notion that Germany could do nothing to prevent the massive inflation and depression. "All they had to do was raise taxes on the wealthy who could afford it"......wow!

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Response to midnight (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 01:26 AM

35. Fuckwad.

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Response to midnight (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 01:58 AM

36. May of 1886 they were doing that here. Wonder if that's where he learned it? n/t

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Response to midnight (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 02:04 AM

37. a reminder gone unnoticed in Michissippi ...




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Response to Bozita (Reply #37)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 07:37 PM

102. Not covered by corporate media. No sense of history from them.

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Response to midnight (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 03:05 AM

39. Vote The GOP Bums Out!

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Response to midnight (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 07:34 AM

41. Fascism is alive and well inAmerica

 

One has only to look at the Republican Party and its statement of party approved platform and see similarities. Rove is their Goebbels and yet their are far more extreme than he. Gasbags like Limbaugh,Savage,Hannity ect. Religious Fundamentalists who promote hatred and exclusion of anyone who is secular and believe in the Seperation of Church and State. The party of old,angry,racist, a nd bigoted old white men. Never under estimate the insanity of these crazed and mentally fragile people that are the base. They cannot die soon enough as when the majority of them pass the World becomes a better place. When they come round next time, being born as the very thing they despise will they be the ones working for a better Union?

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Response to midnight (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 08:51 AM

43. This is a difficult quote to verify. The facts, of course, speak for themselves.

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Response to midnight (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 09:43 AM

45. Sounds like Reagan, to me. :>)

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Response to pangaia (Reply #45)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 11:03 AM

56. Reagan in his own words...

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Response to gringo43 (Reply #56)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 08:36 PM

88. You are correct. I was being snarky.. :>)

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Response to pangaia (Reply #45)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 07:23 PM

82. Reagan was the elected head of a major union in this country.

So I doubt he ever said something like this quote.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #82)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 08:37 PM

89. As I replied to Gringo43...

You are correct. I was being snarky.. :>

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Response to midnight (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 10:20 AM

48. I expected this to be a quote from Ann Coulter

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Response to midnight (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 10:38 AM

51. amen

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Response to midnight (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 10:47 AM

52. I'm sure we could find a more recent date in South America when the Chicago University and the

Chicago Boys said the same thing.

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Response to midnight (Original post)


Response to midnight (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 11:57 AM

60. Does Godwin's Law even apply when the OP quotes

 

Hitler?



Great quote, btw. And we don't even have an SPD or KPD to give battle to the fascists.

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Reply #60)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 12:12 PM

62. Lol!

That's the first thing that came to mind when reading the OP.

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Response to midnight (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 12:23 PM

63. Like father like son. Republicans love their daddy.

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Response to midnight (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 12:57 PM

67. This has been running in my head for some time.

From the text found at the Martin-Niemöller-Foundation

First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the socialists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.


Then they came for me,
and there was no one left to speak for me.

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Response to The Wielding Truth (Reply #67)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 07:35 PM

83. Yeah, they actually did come after the communists and socialists first........

mostly because the communists and socialists were the ones who were militant in their opposition to the fascists (in most cases anyway) and would have caused the most trouble. IF they could have gotten together in a united front to stop them. They also led the trade unionists in a lot of cases or at least had influence with the trade unions.

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Response to socialist_n_TN (Reply #83)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 08:16 PM

85. socialist_n_TN

socialist_n_TN

As you pointed out - the socialists, the communists, and the social-democratic party's in Germany was not ready, or willing to have a united opposition to the nazis - in most cases even the social-democrats would rather have a in-fight between the different political ideas in the socialistic world, rather than fight the nazis coming to power - and until 30 January 1933, it was a real possibility to end the nazi dominance in the german Parliament - The Reichtag...The social-democrats, the communist, the socialists was far more powerfully together than That nazis and the conservative combined... But thanks to the silly, and in many cases directly stupid in-fight between the socialistic block - and the smart move from Hitlers, by making conservative his friends - and the fact that he early one promised to "solve" the problems with the labor movement if he got to power was something that was acceptable for the conservatives in Germany.. In fact they believed even after he was elected Chancellor of Germany, they could control Hitler, by the fact that he was in a minority rather than the opposite.. And he was not even in charge of the important office as the army... But Goering got to be the highest officer (and president of the Reichtag) in the police in Prussians - who in 1933 had control over 2/3 of the total german police force... And he used his power, to solve a few issues making the nazi german power more permanent in the german state.. And by the end of May 1933, most of germany was under Hitlers power - the trade unions was destroyed - the democratic parties, even the conservative ones had de solved itself, by order or by force of the new german leadership - and for the next 12 year (and some mounts) Germany was in the hand of Hitler, even when the whole country was engulfed by the world war 2...

But, a light in a rather dim world - the working class in Germany was more or less immune to the nazi propaganda - and even in his capitol Berlin Dr Gobbles and Hitler was never really popular figures - in the large groups who was the working class in germany in between the wars, and even under the war, the working class in germany was never really good friends of Hitler.. Most of them was reduced to quiet ones, who was afraid of talking to much about what was on their mind - their freedom (the little they had) was on the stake - then you tend to be quiet I guess... Many who did not got silent - and it was many of them - ended up in KZ camps who they endured the harsh treatment of the SS guards... But at least until 1939, if they was shown to have enough "understanding" of the new order, could be given their freedom - after signed a paper where they promised not to fight against the Fuhrer - and promise to be a nice person... And NOT to tell germans outside of the camps what happened inside the camps. And of course, be marked by Gestapo who would keep an eye on him/her for as long as it was seeing necessary.. Often for the rest of their life, if it had been up to Gestapo.. And by the way, Gestapo got a high Tech surveillance system from IBM in 1938, who hey also used to categorize the jew transports to the east - the germans was rather punctilious about the importance of having everything in "Ordnung" when it come to expelling people to their death...

Diclotican

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Response to Diclotican (Reply #85)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 08:57 PM

92. To me, one of the biggest failures of the left in all of history........

was this. The communists were more worried about discrediting the social dems in Germany than they were about slapping down the Nazis in a coalition WITH the social democrats. Between the social dems and the communists, they were easily stronger than the Nazis and their allies. Not that a communist could really trust a social democrat in most cases, but when you're facing fascism, you take your allies where you can find them. Or you risk the Reich.

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Response to socialist_n_TN (Reply #92)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 09:48 PM

94. socialist_n_TN

socialist_n_TN

Indeed, it was one of the greatest failures of the labor movement - and the left in general that they was more busy fighting them self, than to fight the nazis.... The communist, and the social.democrats would have been strong enough to fight the nazis in Reichtag - and maybe stooping any measure by the conservatives to make Hitler Chancellor in 1932-33.. If the communists, and the socialists, and the social-democrats in Germany have had enough sense, to just work together to fight the Nazisms - a lot would have been made posible...

But the Communists was kind of paralyzed by the powerstrugle in Russia in the 1930s - and had their own forms of purges where many loyal communists was demoted, or thrown out of the party to root... And the social-democrats was never really able to shake the image of them taking control over the lost war of 1918.. Even though the social democrats was not to blame, for the end of the war, who ended in a way not believed by most germans in 1914 exactly - and the facts that the conservatives in germany was in the know about how things was - long before the general public in germany know it.... The general stab was in the know about how things was, already in 1917 - but waited until 1918, when the war WAS lost, to tell the public about the wars end...

And the conservatives was also blaming social-democrats - socialists, communist, and in general most of what is known today as the "liberal" groups was to blame for the lost war.. It was not the soldiers on the front line who made the war lost - not the generals in the rear - it was the politic ans - specially the socialists who was to blame for the lost war.

The conservatives - or to put it bluntly, the extreme conservative on the right side of the spectrum in USA, is using many of the same reasons about the liberals, the socialists, and other groups who are not part of their ideal world.. And they WILL if available do it far worse than the germans did in the 1940s.. After all - the world have changed a lot since 1945 - and the amiability to kill others, by chemical, biological and other vice is far more advanced today, than in the 1940s...

Diclotican

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Response to midnight (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 01:14 PM

69. Republican fascism or Nazi fascism makes no difference it's exactly the same - FASCISM!

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Response to midnight (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 03:05 PM

72. I see a bumper sticker in the future!

"We must close union offices,
confiscate their money
and put their leaders in prison.
We must reduce workers salaries
and take away their right to strike"
Adolf Hitler, May 2, 1933

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Response to midnight (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 05:17 PM

76. REPUBLICANS: YOU ARE ON THE WRONG SIDE OF HISTORY

Hitler was an active member of a union before he went into politics...Then when he bullied and destroyed all opposing parties, and became the supreme leader, he destroyed the unions.

All REPRESSIVE administrations end in DEFEAT, just like Hitler.

The Republicans are trying to repress this country. They are the Repressive party.

They will NOT succeed.

Note to Republicans-
REPUBLICANS: YOU ARE ON THE WRONG SIDE OF HISTORY.


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Response to sevenseas (Reply #76)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 11:09 PM

96. Sense you put it that way

Hitler sounds just like Reagan. Which makes sense since Reagan is the saint of the modern day fascist republican party.

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Response to midnight (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 05:32 PM

78. yup

 

and 5 years later we put him on the cover of time magazine!

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Response to midnight (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 07:41 PM

84. oops...

i thought it was an article on that pathetic useless worm scott walker.....

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Response to midnight (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 08:17 PM

86. The original tea bagger

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Response to midnight (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 08:40 PM

90. midnight

midnight

I think it was more or less a factual statement from Hitler - and by Mayday 1934, most of the trade unions was dissolved, their property and values taken over by the nazi party - and used to make the working class in Germany not much more than paid slaves.. And by 1838, by many scams and outright kickbacks by nazi-party officials the working class and labor movement was not even a Shadow of their old self.. Their leaders was in prison or in the new KHZ camps - and them self was treated in a way where they in practice was forced to be with their job, even if they talent was going to waste.. In 1934, a work book had ben located to every german worker - and if one wanted to work in another field - he had to get the document out - signed by the boss - and if the boss deiced he was not willing to get the worker go, he could refuse to give the document out - and therefore hinder anyone from making work elsewhere.. And the nazi-party had also a lot of seems where they had to give "voluntary" gifts, either to the officials itself, to make things going more easy - or pay into different form of schemes like the VW Volkswagen Beetle who was a brainchild of Hitler itself. He wanted a german "people cars" on the same scale as Henry Fords T-Ford - but better - and at Wolsburg in Germany (outside Berlin) a whole district of the city was planned to be the base for the biggest car manufactures in the world - dwarfing even Ford.. In reality the factory was not ready to produce any cars what so ever in 1939 - and the cars who was been making in the world, was used to the german army - and after world war two - the factory was more or less bombed to the ground - and it was not until 1948, when an american officer, who also had a past in producing cars - understood who genial the Beetle really was - and was able to convince the top brass in Occupied West Germany about the possibilities of making cars in Germany rather than have to import everything to Germany by sea... The nimble new VW Beetle was used for official duty for at least a decade, it was not until the late 1950s Civilian germans could even buy a used Beatle... After they first had been schemed into buying "shares" of a Beetle in the years between the wars - to the sum of many milliards of RM.... In reality the working class in Germany was devolved into a serving class for the higher ups - and they was bullied in all directions, and misused and treated badly by their own government by 1939...

If it is anything goes - from history, it is the fact that the working man and woman, must stay vigilant - and to fight any way they can, the suppressing world of the higher ups... Specially the world of the elite, who could not care less about everyone else... If anyone believe that they could be accepted into the good club, by working they way up to the top they are in to a surprise when they want to get in..

Or, if anything fails - revolt... Not necessary the best way to work things out - but sometimes it is the only way to get "the powers" some attentions... You tend to get their attention if you burn down their factories - and their gated communities who they believe they was insulted from the "commons".. Just ask the nobel ones in Ancient France - or the nobles in Imperial Russia by 1917... The last one, scared the hell out of the elites for more than a century - it might be time for a little re-run of it all... Not with the same result of course - just enough to jolt their nerve a little

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Response to midnight (Original post)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 06:48 PM

100. And let's not forget how many American businesses first backed the NAZIs...

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