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Tue Dec 11, 2012, 05:41 PM

Why do the Apache helicopter murderers...

fail to prompt the same flood of comment on this board as Private Manning, who exposed this war crime? Why was the whistleblower subjected to torture, while these men have not been investigated? Why is he facing life in prison while no investigation is underway of the horrific war crimes exposed in the Iraq war logs? Why are the architects of the war of aggression all free and in prosperous sinecures, awaiting their chance to return to power in a future administration?

Videos - Collateral Murder
http://www.collateralmurder.com/

Update: On July 6, 2010, Private Bradley Manning, a 22 year old intelligence analyst with the United States Army in Baghdad, was charged with disclosing this video (after allegedly speaking to an unfaithful journalist). The whistleblower behind the Pentagon Papers, Daniel Ellsberg, has called Mr. Manning a 'hero'. He is currently imprisoned in Kuwait. The Apache crew and those behind the cover up depicted in the video have yet to be charged. To assist Private Manning, please see bradleymanning.org.

5th April 2010 10:44 EST WikiLeaks has released a classified US military video depicting the indiscriminate slaying of over a dozen people in the Iraqi suburb of New Baghdad -- including two Reuters news staff.

Reuters has been trying to obtain the video through the Freedom of Information Act, without success since the time of the attack. The video, shot from an Apache helicopter gun-sight, clearly shows the unprovoked slaying of a wounded Reuters employee and his rescuers. Two young children involved in the rescue were also seriously wounded.


Iraq War Logs
http://wikileaks.org/irq/

The reports detail 109,032 deaths in Iraq, comprised of 66,081 'civilians'; 23,984 'enemy' (those labeled as insurgents); 15,196 'host nation' (Iraqi government forces) and 3,771 'friendly' (coalition forces). The majority of the deaths (66,000, over 60%) of these are civilian deaths.That is 31 civilians dying every day during the six year period. For comparison, the 'Afghan War Diaries', previously released by WikiLeaks, covering the same period, detail the deaths of some 20,000 people. Iraq during the same period, was five times as lethal with equivallent population size.



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Arrow 58 replies Author Time Post
Reply Why do the Apache helicopter murderers... (Original post)
JackRiddler Dec 2012 OP
Scootaloo Dec 2012 #1
DollarBillHines Dec 2012 #3
Smarmie Doofus Dec 2012 #29
HiPointDem Dec 2012 #19
russspeakeasy Dec 2012 #2
wildbilln864 Dec 2012 #4
whatchamacallit Dec 2012 #5
RomneyLies Dec 2012 #6
whatchamacallit Dec 2012 #7
ItsTheMediaStupid Dec 2012 #9
RomneyLies Dec 2012 #11
nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 #20
Mangoman Dec 2012 #30
Mangoman Dec 2012 #43
AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #26
EOTE Dec 2012 #35
jberryhill Dec 2012 #8
JackRiddler Dec 2012 #10
jberryhill Dec 2012 #12
JackRiddler Dec 2012 #18
jberryhill Dec 2012 #21
JackRiddler Dec 2012 #22
jberryhill Dec 2012 #23
JackRiddler Dec 2012 #24
freshwest Dec 2012 #13
jberryhill Dec 2012 #14
freshwest Dec 2012 #15
jberryhill Dec 2012 #16
freshwest Dec 2012 #17
Douglas Carpenter Dec 2012 #25
Smarmie Doofus Dec 2012 #27
AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #32
Egalitarian Thug Dec 2012 #28
Lightbulb_on Dec 2012 #31
ronnie624 Dec 2012 #33
Lightbulb_on Dec 2012 #55
Lightbulb_on Dec 2012 #54
randome Dec 2012 #34
JackRiddler Dec 2012 #36
randome Dec 2012 #37
hobbit709 Dec 2012 #39
Lightbulb_on Dec 2012 #47
JackRiddler Dec 2012 #48
Lightbulb_on Dec 2012 #53
Lightbulb_on Dec 2012 #57
JackRiddler Dec 2012 #58
ronnie624 Dec 2012 #41
randome Dec 2012 #42
slackmaster Dec 2012 #38
randome Dec 2012 #40
Separation Dec 2012 #45
randome Dec 2012 #46
Separation Dec 2012 #56
TheKentuckian Dec 2012 #44
Robb Dec 2012 #49
RebelOne Dec 2012 #50
Poll_Blind Dec 2012 #51
ieoeja Dec 2012 #52

Response to JackRiddler (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 05:42 PM

1. Because the US government does not perceive Arabs / Muslims as actual people

And hasn't, since at least the early 70's.

It has since infected the general populace of the country, even among those who would otherwise call themselves "progressive"

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #1)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 06:12 PM

3. I was having a Thanksgiving discussion in my kitchen

with a guy who appears sane.

We both know a good deal about weaponry and enjoy talking about same.

I mentioned depleted uranium in Iraq and the consequences of its shelf-life.

He said, "Yeah, and those kids are out there playing with the fragments", which took me by surprise, since he is a Fox News fan.

I mentioned the resulting birth defects.

His response?

"Birth defect? Every Muslim is a birth defect."

Needless to say, he and his wife (who is a dear friend) were instantly dis-invited from our Thanksgiving dinner.

Fuck, I (barely) lived through Kill a Gook for God.

I didn't need that shit.

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Response to DollarBillHines (Reply #3)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 03:33 AM

29. Ugh. The more things change....

.... the more they don't.

>>>>"Birth defect? Every Muslim is a birth defect."

Needless to say, he and his wife (who is a dear friend) were instantly dis-invited from our Thanksgiving dinner.

Fuck, I (barely) lived through Kill a Gook for God. >>>>>

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #1)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 12:59 AM

19. +1

 

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Response to JackRiddler (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 06:00 PM

2. I hope you get more and better responses than I did.

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Response to JackRiddler (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 06:13 PM

4. k&r! nt

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Response to JackRiddler (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 06:15 PM

5. It's a team thing

When the other team is making war we dissent. When we do it, it must be right, so we punish the dissenters.

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Response to JackRiddler (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 06:17 PM

6. Because Manning is a disgrace to his uniform and a traitor. n/t

 

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Response to RomneyLies (Reply #6)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 06:19 PM

7. And the Apache Murderers aren't?

Gotta love the new DU...

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Response to RomneyLies (Reply #6)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 06:27 PM

9. A disgrace for having morals and courage

To try and stop this crap?

It's a disgrace for my country to hide anything like this.

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Response to ItsTheMediaStupid (Reply #9)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 06:39 PM

11. No, traitor who did a massive classified file dump when he had no clue

 

Last edited Tue Dec 11, 2012, 07:45 PM - Edit history (1)

what was in those files all because he was pissed off that he had to live up to Army standards.

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Response to RomneyLies (Reply #11)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 01:01 AM

20. Of note, not even the army is making this claim

And this poster has yet to address the detention treatment that goes against the UCMJ.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #20)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 07:02 AM

30. Are you saying

 

He knew what he dumped ?

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Response to Mangoman (Reply #30)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 02:08 PM

43. Anybody?

 

Did Manning know what was in the document dump ?

Did Manning know what he was blowing the whistle on ?

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Response to RomneyLies (Reply #6)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 03:25 AM

26. Clearly, Cheney and other chicken-hawks have not been a disgrace to any uniforms because

 

they didn't wear any.

But you want to judge Manning and do so in a virulent way.

It sounds like someone protests too much.

Did you ever wear a uniform?

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Response to RomneyLies (Reply #6)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 11:33 AM

35. How did I know you'd attack Manning while completely ignoring war crimes.

War crimes are just the price you pay for living in society according to you. If you could only focus your bile toward attacking actual war criminals, maybe you could accomplish something decent in your life. But go on and keep attacking one of the few people in this country who is brave enough to expose the horrific things our military does.

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Response to JackRiddler (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 06:20 PM

8. Probably because of this

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #8)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 06:37 PM

10. Bullshit.

Are you saying there would have been an investigation of this incident if not for this brief, ambiguous glimpse? Absolute bullshit, and you know it.

In any case, it's moot because it was well before any shooting.

When they shot the first group, the men were milling around in the open and nothing could have been mistaken as one of them aiming at the helicopter. (Which if they were, given what actually happened, would have been justifiable preventive self-defense in keeping with the Bush doctrine.)

What about when they machine-gunned the heavily wounded downed man trying to crawl away?

And when they enfilladed the rescuers carrying one of the wounded man -

- oh what's the bloody point? You've made your decision to be immune to the reality of a war of aggression and crimes against humanity, since it's by "your" country, so whatever. Go in the corner and feel like a winner.

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Response to JackRiddler (Reply #10)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 06:40 PM

12. Actually, Jack, I don't have an opinion on it

I've seen arguments both ways, and frankly don't have a conclusion of my own.

But the amount of presumption on your part in response to one still, speaks more to your own need to find a target for your personal hostility, than to the motivations or understanding of anyone on that helicopter.

Thank God nobody ever put you behind a machine gun. You are no different, in terms of your need to attack someone on ambiguous information, than anyone who was there.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #12)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 12:58 AM

18. You obviously have an opinion on it.

And excuse me, "Thank God nobody ever put you behind a machine gun"? Whatever would I be doing behind a machine gun? Maybe you think that's a morally defensible place for anyone to be. I don't.

That is some sick logic there. You're seem to think making literal mincemeat of human beings standing around doing nothing on a street corner is on the same moral level as "atttacking someone on ambiguous information." Physician, heal yourself.

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Response to JackRiddler (Reply #18)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 01:14 AM

21. I'm sure this may come as a surprise to you

But I know what I think better than you do.

I don't have an opinion on it, Jack, and it doesn't matter what sort of juvenile tantrum you want to throw at anyone who doesn't agree with your position. You are a simple bully who believes that sort of hostility toward others is morally defensible, and it is why things like this event happen in the first place.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #21)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 01:22 AM

22. More faux-outraged personal attacks.

No, see, you obviously have an opinion on it and you have expressed it in your posts.

And you are engaging in full illogic, morally equating an unprovoked war of aggression with "juvenile tantrum" and ""hostility toward others." (I can easily see you in the Vietnam era saying the war was a bad idea but the long-haired hippies who disrespected a red-white-and-blue cloth were equally violent and somehow responsible for extending the war.)

Yes, I feel a hostility toward those who invade distant countries and commit mass murders there. Amazing eh? The problem is that too many people don't feel that hostility, but watch passively as the crime is committed by their own nation, and then come up with equivocations and bullshit reasons why it's six of one, half dozen of the other. They are a big reason why things like this happen (although I wouldn't equate them to murderers).

My hostility to murder is not why things like this happen. The real use of machine guns by invaders of foreign countries to literally murder other human beings has nothing to do with your fantasies about what I would do if I used a machine gun, which I haven't and I wouldn't.

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Response to JackRiddler (Reply #22)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 01:26 AM

23. That's really funny Jack

I posted one still photograph and you go on a rant about me, in reaction to that photograph, and you have the utter un-self awareness to go off about "personal attacks". That's fucking hilarious.

I've never been behind a machine gun either, Jack. But I have been arrested for protesting a war. I don't doubt for a moment you'd ever put your ass on the line for anything you believe in, but golly you sure told that jackass on the Internet a thing or two. Feels good, don't it?

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #23)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 01:29 AM

24. You don't know me sir, and I am glad not to know you.

I think your incessant projection speaks for itself.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #8)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 07:19 PM

13. Is there a link or webpage to go with this picture? Because I don't get what 'this' is.

Are you saying this was useful to someonem, a danger to someone's life, or part of an incident?

If you see something of great significance in this photo, honestly, IDK, so tell me. That could be anywhere. Without those markers, it could be just a B&W Google Earth snapshot.

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Response to freshwest (Reply #13)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 07:26 PM

14. Sure, it's from Wikileaks

http://www.collateralmurder.com/en/stills.html

The caption by Wikileaks is:

"Namir Noor-Eldeen tries to take a picture of whatever is occurring further down the street. His camera lens and head appear from around the corner. The pilot in the Apache mistakes his camera for an RPG. This is the very moment the pilot gets permission to attack the group of 11 men."

The "whatever is ocurring further down the street" is also part of the context by which, it is claimed, the incident arose from a series of self-reinforcing perceptual errors by the crew. Either that or they just decided to gun down a bunch of people for no particular reason. There are people who claim to know the truth of the matter, one way or the other. I am not one of those people.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #14)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 07:38 PM

15. Thanks, that seems open to interpretation. We should have never gone. That's my issue. War stinks.

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Response to freshwest (Reply #15)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 07:41 PM

16. Precisely. We shouldn't have been there in the first place


But what it takes to lead to these sorts of things is to attribute evil motives to the other, claim they lack morals, and thus to dehumanize them in order to make them an appropriate target for righteous hatred. Go a few posts up, and you see how this principle operates on a micro scale.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #16)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 08:05 PM

17. Yes, I can see it. Those who do such things, never do. When you read anyone talking that way...

Whether you call it judgment, hostility, atittude or aggressive energy, IDK. The same spirit can be found in those who are opposing, as well as those who are making war, which is not what MLK and Gandhi said would end it. If one thing is resolved, that spirit never rests. Because it is seeking a cause to fight to justify itself, always restless for conflict.

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Response to JackRiddler (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 01:30 AM

25. because real God fearing all American boys kill people with high tech weapons

blowing whistles is for wusses

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Response to JackRiddler (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 03:29 AM

27. And why does this OP have only 25 recs? Here's #26. n/t

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Response to Smarmie Doofus (Reply #27)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 10:48 AM

32. In part, the time when the OP is posted in comparison to the posting of other OPs affects the

 

number of people who will read and rec it.

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Response to JackRiddler (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 03:29 AM

28. Because this site has become all about the party and there are a fair number of Reich-wingers

 

that seem to live here night and day. When I first looked into this place, back in 2004 there were a lot of posts and comments about the "Good Germans" and what happens when people stop thinking and accept propaganda as fact.

Well, now the Democrats are in charge and here we are.

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Response to JackRiddler (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 07:15 AM

31. To answer your question...

 

... They were investigated. I've read the findings and you can as well.

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Response to Lightbulb_on (Reply #31)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 11:24 AM

33. A link to the findings would be appreciated. n/t

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Response to Lightbulb_on (Reply #31)


Response to JackRiddler (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 11:29 AM

34. Wasn't there a curfew in place at the time?

That is not, for the nuance-impaired, an advocacy of invading Iraq and dominating people who never did a damned thing to us.

But if the helicopter crew was ordered to enforce the curfew, how could they be guilty of anything other than doing their jobs?

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Response to randome (Reply #34)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 01:45 PM

36. A curfew is enforced by machine-gunning men who are standing around doing nothing?

Fascinating. Tell us more.

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Response to JackRiddler (Reply #36)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 01:50 PM

37. I don't get you. I thought we were talking about the helicopter attack, not men 'standing around'.

And yes, it's conceivable -not my choice, of course- that the crew was under orders to enforce the curfew and that this meant to eliminate anyone carrying a weapon at night.

That's my theory on why they are not considered to have committed war crimes. If I'm wrong on my assumptions, that's okay with me.

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Response to JackRiddler (Reply #36)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 01:52 PM

39. Obviously you've never been in a place where the military rules and has a curfew.

When the local ROE are shoot anything that moves after curfew, you try not to attract unwanted attention.

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Response to JackRiddler (Reply #36)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 03:10 PM

47. Breaking curfew and standing around with RPGs...

 

... was an excellent way to get shot at the time.

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Response to Lightbulb_on (Reply #47)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 03:22 PM

48. There were no RPGs. Men were shot for carrying wounded men.

Others were shot who were already down and dying and trying to crawl away.

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Response to JackRiddler (Reply #48)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 06:14 PM

53. Maybe these were just cardboard cutout RPGs...

 

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Response to JackRiddler (Reply #48)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 08:24 PM

57. Kick for a response...

 

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Response to Lightbulb_on (Reply #57)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 09:43 PM

58. "We see what we believe."

I see little point in this exchange. You'll always see an "RPG," since that suits you.

As if that would justify anything. If it was Assad's helicopter in Syria, you'd call it the murder of random civilians.

And if that vague pole-like thing really was an RPG and not a rifle (or a piece of plumbing), you'd say, of course civilian resistance has the right to defend themselves! (In this case, very obviously they were about to be murdered without provocation, so by the Bush doctrine they would have had the right to fire first.)

But this wasn't Assad's helicopter. It was the helicopter of murderers whose flag you identify with. Albeit cowboys. As the audio makes clear, they are eager to go above and beyond the already criminal mission assigned to them of serving as illegal invaders, and just blast the shit out of some random civilians.

And then they blast the shit out of the wounded while these wounded are down and crippled and crawling and helpless.

And then they blast the shit out of the Good Samaritans for being patsies who (driving by in a city!) stopped to help their fellow wounded human beings. Something you'd rather ignore, since there can be no justification.

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Response to randome (Reply #34)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 02:00 PM

41. A curfew imposed by an illegal invader, has no moral legitimacy.

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Response to ronnie624 (Reply #41)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 02:07 PM

42. I agree one thousand percent!

But does that make the soldiers guilty of war crimes? That's the question being posed. If you think it does, then every soldier who went to Iraq is guilty of 'moral illegitimacy' and perhaps war crimes.

I don't think you'll find a lot of support for that. The veterans who went there and returned were used like chess pieces in a pointless orgy of war.

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Response to JackRiddler (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 01:51 PM

38. Because they are acting under orders of the President of the United States

 

A man who happens to be very popular on this forum.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #38)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 01:54 PM

40. This occurred before Obama took office.

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Response to randome (Reply #40)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 02:57 PM

45. What?!

So are you saying that it is not going on now? No more drone or Apache accidental kills? That is a relief!! I will be sure to alert the media!

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Response to Separation (Reply #45)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 03:06 PM

46. Not saying that at all. The OP was about Iraq/Manning.

Obama had nothing to do with the helicopter attack. We need to get our troops back home and stop killing people, period. Few would argue with that.

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Response to randome (Reply #46)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 05:35 PM

56. Sorry

Didn't mean it like it probably came across.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #38)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 02:36 PM

44. I can see how George W. Bush might be extra popular on here anymore

Not that matters at all, any President that would order innocent people be gunned down from a helicopter should lose any popularity on this site but then we all know good and well that no President made any such order.

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Response to JackRiddler (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 03:30 PM

49. Why, if Rumsfeld walks free, can't I steal this goddamn Mazda?

"As your attorney, I advise you to go fer it."

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Response to JackRiddler (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 03:53 PM

50. That video was just distressingly awful.

I felt so sorry for those little kids in the van. I wonder what happened to them. Did they live with those terrible wounds?

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Response to JackRiddler (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 03:57 PM

51. Oh, if a Republican were in office the howls would be universal. nt

PB

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Response to Poll_Blind (Reply #51)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 04:39 PM

52. DU was pretty evenly split on this at the time. Don't know how you missed it.


Forces on the ground were engaged in a fire fight. They saw what looked a lot like a weapon being aimed toward the fight. They shot. When they saw the "enemy" later being rescued, they then shot the rescuers.

A lot of DUers sided with the helicopter crew.

The "we would scream if it weren't a (D)" meme is more than a little silly. We had these exact same arguments under Bush. Not as much, as nobody felt particularly like defending Bush. So we were more likely to just ignore it. But sometimes we spoke up. And on this incident a LOT of people spoke up.

I will make the same request that I have repeatedly: name one DUer who did that 180 degree flip of which you so casually accuse us.


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