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Tue Dec 11, 2012, 05:19 PM

Walmart security guard shoots 'shoplifting' mother dead in parking lot as she tries to escape with t

Shelly Frey was shot dead attempting to drive away from off-duty sheriff deputy Louis Campbell who suspected her of shoplifting

He fired when Frey and her two alleged accomplices accelerated when he opened the car door

There were two small children in the car at the time of the shooting


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2245074/Walmart-security-guard-shoots-shoplifting-mother-dead-parking-lot-tries-escape-young-children.html

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Reply Walmart security guard shoots 'shoplifting' mother dead in parking lot as she tries to escape with t (Original post)
ashling Dec 2012 OP
mike_c Dec 2012 #1
DollarBillHines Dec 2012 #4
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #74
gradient Dec 2012 #79
WinkyDink Dec 2012 #88
ToxMarz Dec 2012 #136
lunatica Dec 2012 #146
Gidney N Cloyd Dec 2012 #149
REP Dec 2012 #92
mike_c Dec 2012 #93
lbrtbell Dec 2012 #103
Scootaloo Dec 2012 #128
Cleita Dec 2012 #96
union_maid Dec 2012 #102
hack89 Dec 2012 #154
bunnies Dec 2012 #2
sakabatou Dec 2012 #3
bunnies Dec 2012 #5
HiPointDem Dec 2012 #9
bunnies Dec 2012 #12
lbrtbell Dec 2012 #105
backwoodsbob Dec 2012 #126
Wind Dancer Dec 2012 #152
Whovian Dec 2012 #10
bunnies Dec 2012 #11
HiPointDem Dec 2012 #16
bunnies Dec 2012 #19
Whovian Dec 2012 #21
bunnies Dec 2012 #22
Whovian Dec 2012 #24
bunnies Dec 2012 #27
Whovian Dec 2012 #37
bunnies Dec 2012 #44
Whovian Dec 2012 #64
sabrina 1 Dec 2012 #49
FarCenter Dec 2012 #50
sabrina 1 Dec 2012 #108
bunnies Dec 2012 #56
2naSalit Dec 2012 #66
socialist_n_TN Dec 2012 #85
2naSalit Dec 2012 #122
backwoodsbob Dec 2012 #129
2naSalit Dec 2012 #133
backwoodsbob Dec 2012 #141
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Chemisse Dec 2012 #139
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bunnies Dec 2012 #23
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gradient Dec 2012 #86
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dballance Dec 2012 #94
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dballance Dec 2012 #162
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Old and In the Way Dec 2012 #161
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txwhitedove Dec 2012 #101
FarCenter Dec 2012 #110
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jeff47 Dec 2012 #125
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SomethingFishy Dec 2012 #170

Response to ashling (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 05:21 PM

1. this is crazy....

What is Walmart doing with ARMED guards, for fuck's sake? Summary execution for stealing low value property? I thought that sort of thing went out of fashion after the dark age.

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Response to mike_c (Reply #1)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 05:25 PM

4. Well, when you sell everything needed for shake-and-bake meth...

your security just might run into some hard cases.

That said, fuck Wal-Mart.

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Response to DollarBillHines (Reply #4)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 07:12 PM

74. Oh, they do not

They have the same laws for Sudafed as anyplace else.

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Response to mike_c (Reply #1)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 07:32 PM

79. Why shouldn't they be armed?

 

If someone in the store goes nuts and is harming customers or employees, they should issue a sternly worded scolding? Or, I know, wait until the cops show up, right?

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Response to gradient (Reply #79)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 07:46 PM

88. Uh, the story starkly illustrates why.

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Response to gradient (Reply #79)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 03:35 AM

136. If they are armed

Why shouldn't they act responsibly. You don't shoot someone SUSPECTED of a petty crime while they are driving away from you in the parking lot. No one was
going nuts harming customers or employees in the store. Hence the argument they are not responsibly hiring people qualified to be armed. Besides, shouldn't it be up to the other customers to arm themselves for protection from a crazy person in the store.

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Response to gradient (Reply #79)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 01:17 PM

146. Because they aren't cops and shooting shoplifters is wrong

Especially in a moving car with children in it.

But I'm sure you think valueless trinkets and cheap stuff is worth killing people over.

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Response to gradient (Reply #79)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 01:32 PM

149. Because WalMart hires guards that are too fucking stupid to have guns?

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Response to mike_c (Reply #1)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 07:50 PM

92. He was an off-duty regular cop; still no reason to shoot a shoplifter

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Response to REP (Reply #92)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 07:52 PM

93. I read the article....

Nonetheless, he was working as a security guard at Walmart, not collaring murderers and father-rapers. Why did Walmart have an armed guard on duty? I mean, what could possibly go wrong?

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Response to mike_c (Reply #93)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 08:42 PM

103. That's against Walmart policy in so many ways

No Walmart guard is supposed to be armed, ever. And they're supposed to stop pursuing beyond a certain point.

And what the hell is a sheriff doing shooting a fleeing suspect, anyway? You can't just shoot people who aren't posing a threat to others' safety!

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Response to lbrtbell (Reply #103)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 01:58 AM

128. Because "stuff" is more valuable than human life

That's in the constitution somewhere, I'm sure of it.

And you'll certainly find no shortage of DU'ers defending the concept.

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Response to REP (Reply #92)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 07:57 PM

96. True. One of the security guards in a store that I worked at years ago

was an off duty cop. He was not allowed to carry a gun while working at that store by the store rules and was required to call the on duty cops if an arrest was needed. All he could do was a citizens arrest, while on duty at the store and off duty as a cop. This is crazy considering shoplifters usually aren't violent.

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Response to mike_c (Reply #1)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 08:42 PM

102. Yes, exactly

I've known store security guard and store detectives. They are not people who should be armed. And I've never seen one who was, for that matter.

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Response to mike_c (Reply #1)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 01:49 PM

154. Many LEOs are required to be armed even when off duty

he was a moon lighting deputy sheriff.

I agree that Walmart has no need for armed guards.

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Response to ashling (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 05:22 PM

2. Apparently she (the driver) tried to run him over.

Details. Details.

Hard to say what one would do in that situation. Sad and tragic for sure.

edit: to clarify who I meant by "she"

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Response to bunnies (Reply #2)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 05:24 PM

3. Sometimes it's best to look at the article

and not just glance over at the headline.

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Response to sakabatou (Reply #3)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 05:26 PM

5. I did. Thank you.


Andrews began to drive away while the deputy was standing between the open door and the driver's seat.

'She threw it in reverse and tried to run over the deputy,' said Harris County Sheriff's Office spokesperson Deputy Thomas Gilliland.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2245074/Walmart-security-guard-shoots-shoplifting-mother-dead-parking-lot-tries-escape-young-children.html#ixzz2EmjHCcv1
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

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Response to bunnies (Reply #5)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 05:30 PM

9. ...said the sheriff's office.

 

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #9)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 05:33 PM

12. yep. I wont argue that point. nt

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #9)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 08:45 PM

105. And of course, the sheriff's office would NEVER lie

...to cover up for the sheriff, would they?

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Response to lbrtbell (Reply #105)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 01:55 AM

126. and of course a shoplifter would never

try to run over security trying to stop her

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Response to backwoodsbob (Reply #126)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 01:44 PM

152. Are you truly defending the security guard?

Unbelievable!

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Response to bunnies (Reply #5)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 05:30 PM

10. From the description you posted she may have knocked him away from the car

 

or even knocked him down if he was not fast enough to get out of the way of the door. He decided to kill.

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Response to Whovian (Reply #10)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 05:32 PM

11. Correction. He decided to shoot.

Whether he intended to kill her or not, we'll probably never know for certain.

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Response to bunnies (Reply #11)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 05:35 PM

16. i think we can know with as much certainty as whether she intended to run him over.

 

which you seem to accept as fact.

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #16)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 05:39 PM

19. I dont accept any of this as "fact".

Im just going by the statements in article. Isnt that all we have to go by at this point?

adding: hence my above post "Apparently she (the driver) was trying to run him over"

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Response to bunnies (Reply #11)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 05:45 PM

21. Right.... He just wanted to wound her in the arm so she could only drive with one hand.

 

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Response to Whovian (Reply #21)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 05:49 PM

22. I cant speak to his mindset or intention.

If you feel that you can... have at it. I cant even begin to know what I would have done at that point and I certainly wont pretend to know the intentions of a total stranger.

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Response to bunnies (Reply #22)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 05:59 PM

24. If you pull a gun and shoot at a person, every training class will tell you that it is to kill said

 

person.

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Response to Whovian (Reply #24)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 06:04 PM

27. Having never taken a "training class", I wouldnt know that to be true or false.

What I DO know however, is that a person, if they feel their life is in danger, is capable of wildly firing a gun. He may have been off balance, he may have been a bad shot, theres a ton of variables in this equation.

Also, I sincerely doubt that cops are trained that every shot fired is a shot to kill. As I understand it, lethal force should only be used when all other options are exhausted.

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Response to bunnies (Reply #27)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 06:14 PM

37. I understand. Any killing by a cop or a gun

 

should be given every resource by the law to relieve them of any responsibility. There are many like you with the same affliction and there is help available. The first step is to keep an open mind.

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Response to Whovian (Reply #37)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 06:26 PM

44. what?!

You clearly know nothing about me.

talk about keeping an open mind.

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Response to bunnies (Reply #44)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 06:51 PM

64. No I don't. I can only infer by the informatation you have given in

 

previous posts stating your opinions.

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Response to bunnies (Reply #27)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 06:31 PM

49. And the woman, seeing a gun-wielding individual chasing after her,

most likely, and correctly as it turns out in her case, felt her life might be in danger and tried to get out of there as fast as possible. She may have been a bad driver, or so scared she didn't know what she was doing, worried that some lunatic with a gun was so close to the car in which she had children.

She is dead, he is not. Why was he running around a Walmart Parking lot with a loaded gun where there are children and other shoppers he could have hit also.

She stole some merchandise. The sensible thing to do would have been to take down her license plate number, and let it be handled the way it should have been handled.

No one should get the death sentence for stealing. He drew a gun and I know if I did that and aimed at someone I would know that there was a huge chance I might kill them. Which is why I don't walk around with deadly weapons.

I have a feeling Walmart will be pleased with what they will view as the 'deterrent' effect of this tragedy. Money is everything to Walmart.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #49)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 06:33 PM

50. He was a Harris County Sheriff's Deputy in uniform who first confronted them outside the door.

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Response to FarCenter (Reply #50)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 09:53 PM

108. I've never had a cop pull a gun on me, but if one did, I would panic.

Violence the solution of all of America's problem. And with so much of it, you would think we would have solved all of our problems by now.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #49)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 06:39 PM

56. He wasnt "some lunatic" "running around a Walmart Parking lot with a loaded gun"

He was a cop. In uniform. Doing his job.

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Response to bunnies (Reply #56)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 06:57 PM

66. Reasonable options for said officer...

Take down plate # and deal with it in a more civil fashion

If shooting was the only option, and I think not, shoot tires of vehicle, then approach vehicle

Call in the plate #

Call in the plate #

Call in the plate #

Point, there were children present, he was off duty (according to the article), and the items taken couldn't have amounted to very much no matter how many reachable items the three alleged women may have crammed into their purses. Nothing of value is easily accessible in a Walmart. You have to pay for it before the clerk lets you hold it in your hand after they fetch it from a locked cabinet. This guy just decided she needed to be dead since she wasn't accepting his authority, he shot her in the neck.


...oh yeah, and she was not white.

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Response to 2naSalit (Reply #66)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 07:42 PM

85. "...oh yeah, she was not white."......

That was the first thing I thought of. Was she white or not?

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Response to socialist_n_TN (Reply #85)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 11:05 PM

122. Well it is Houston after all.

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Response to 2naSalit (Reply #66)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 02:00 AM

129. she tried to run him over

to paraphrase you

This woman just decided he needed to be dead since he wasn't accepting her authority

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Response to backwoodsbob (Reply #129)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 02:20 AM

133. She wasn't driving the car

he shot her in the neck, so if she wasn't driving then how could she be trying to run him over? Read the article. It's a clear case of he said vs she's dead... oh and did I mention that she wasn't white? Bet she wouldn't be dead if she was white.

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Response to 2naSalit (Reply #133)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 10:32 AM

141. she wouldn't be dead if she was white?you're shitting me

I'm starting to think I'm on the wrong site..this place is getting crazy

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Response to backwoodsbob (Reply #141)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 01:10 PM

145. THink what you will

that is your prerogative... I shit you not. And I'm sticking to it.

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Response to bunnies (Reply #56)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 05:11 AM

139. His actions suggest he was a bit off balance.

Cops can be lunatics too. And he was clearly running around the parking lot with a loaded gun.

It's really hard to defend his actions. The only way it could be excused is if she was backing up while he was in the door, and killing her saved his life.

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Response to bunnies (Reply #56)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 07:46 PM

165. A cop in uniform with a gun is a terrifying sight to

many people, especially minorities and the poor. Better if he was not in uniform, she might have less fearful.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #49)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 11:44 AM

143. do you have ANY evidence he was chasing her

through the parking lot with his gun already drawn?

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Response to bunnies (Reply #27)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 06:47 PM

62. Why would he fear his life was in danger as she was driving AWAY

Granted she may have knocked him down when she backed up but once she started driving away he was no longer in any danger. He was just pissed and took it out with his gun even though he knew children were in the vehicle.. I hope he goes to jail...

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Response to Bandit (Reply #62)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 01:57 AM

127. agreed

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Response to bunnies (Reply #27)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 07:16 PM

77. It is true

Cops and civilians are taught this. It is a felony for civilians to brandish and/or fire a "warning shot." It is also very unsafe. Cops are taught the same thing.

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Response to Whovian (Reply #24)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 06:36 PM

53. The training materials I have seen say...

To not attempt a "crippling," "winging," or "Hollywood shot." The recommendation is to shoot for the body mass (the trunk), preferably twice (double tap) to assure at least one round hits. The objective is to "stop" the individual (though killing with a handgun can happen 20% of the time). This is why self-defense and "duty" weapons are evaluated on their "stopping power" and not on their "killing power," a term of art used in the popular media.

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Response to bunnies (Reply #11)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 06:43 PM

60. I think it's pretty safe to infer intent to kill from the use of deadly force.

I had a Sunday School teacher decades ago who was a narcotics detective. Always had a .357 under his sport coat, even in church. He told us many times, and this is a near quote, you don't pull your gun unless you intend to shoot, and you don't shoot unless you intend to kill--"winging them" only happens in the movies; you aim for the biggest part of the body.

Yeah, I think the off-duty deputy intended to kill.

Bake

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Response to bunnies (Reply #11)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 07:15 PM

76. You do not shoot to wound

NO ONE is trained to shoot to wound. You only fire your weapon if you are in immediate threat of grievous bodily injury or death.

A shoplifter isn't an armed robber or home invader.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #76)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 02:08 AM

131. That's the real point.

Let's see.... a loaf of bread? a piece of clothing?... an officers control? .... equals... a life?

I think not. The weapon stays put unless there is immediate threat of grievous bodily injury or death, not just because you don't get your way. She would have been caught and dealt with if he was intelligent enough to make realistic and prudent decisions. It seems he was not.



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Response to bunnies (Reply #11)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 10:42 PM

117. If you've decided to shoot you've decided to kill, full stop.

You never ever pull a gun unless you're prepared to kill someone with it.

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Response to bunnies (Reply #11)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 02:17 AM

132. As people have been told over and over in the Gungeon

You pull the gun, you shoot to to kill.

There is nothing else. No winging, no wounding, no nothing,

Only kill.

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Response to Whovian (Reply #10)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 06:39 PM

57. How very courteous of her

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Response to bunnies (Reply #5)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 05:34 PM

14. If there was a serial killer who murdered and pissed on joggers in Runyon Canyon...

There would be a DU subject titled "man sentenced to death for peeing in park"

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Response to Sen. Walter Sobchak (Reply #14)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 05:56 PM

23. and if there were...

it wouldnt surprise me at all.

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Response to Sen. Walter Sobchak (Reply #14)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 06:35 PM

52. ROFL

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Response to Sen. Walter Sobchak (Reply #14)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 06:38 PM

55. LOL

Sadly, this is true. And someone would have to call the cops "pigs" and the person who turned him in a "narc".

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Response to bunnies (Reply #2)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 05:29 PM

8. that's his story....

She was not driving, if I recall correctly-- someone else was-- and the driver's actions were also consistent with simply trying to escape. In any event, the off duty cop only needed to release her door and step out of the way to avoid being "run over."

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Response to mike_c (Reply #8)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 05:35 PM

15. You seem very certain of what actions the officer could have taken to avoid being run over.

These are things we couldnt possibly know based on the article.

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Response to bunnies (Reply #15)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 07:47 PM

89. If he could shoot, he could move his body.

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Response to bunnies (Reply #15)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 10:44 PM

119. Shooting a passenger seems like an ineffective way of stopping the car. (nt)

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #119)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 02:37 AM

135. No doubt!

So, he shot a passenger, failed to stop the car and - still - lived to tell his tale with apparently no injuries worth a mention in the article: it makes me wonder how much danger the car presented.

Beyond this, and more importantly, if a driver were threatening a police officer with a vehicle, is it generally considered acceptable to shoot a passenger and claim self-defense?

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Response to mike_c (Reply #8)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 06:40 PM

58. does walmart have video surveilence in their parking lots...?

 

that should be able to show just how much danger pistol pete was really in.

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Response to Mel Content (Reply #58)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 07:06 PM

70. excellent point....

eom

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Response to bunnies (Reply #2)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 06:06 PM

28. I would get out of the way - not stand and aim at the driver.

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Response to geckosfeet (Reply #28)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 06:10 PM

32. How do you know that he was standing and aiming at the driver?

And if he was "aiming at the driver". He clearly missed his target. Perhaps because he was off balance from being pushed by the door.

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Response to bunnies (Reply #32)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 07:01 PM

68. Well - if a car as trying to run me over, ah'd figger the driver was the one aiming at me.

As far as him missing, yup. Just as good a reason as any not to shoot. Clearly not directed fire, and if it was, he should be ashamed.



Oh - wait.

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Response to bunnies (Reply #2)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 07:13 PM

75. Not SOP for stoppomg a shoplifter

And, cops also know you don't open the car door for a shoplifter.

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Response to bunnies (Reply #2)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 07:22 PM

78. She (the driver)

was Edwards, and the victim was Shelly Frey (not the driver). But, hell that's okay because she was in the car and in his sights, and she (Frey) was a fleeing criminal so a summary execution was definitely in order. No muss, no fuss, no trial necessary -- because justice was served.

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Response to bunnies (Reply #2)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 10:40 PM

115. Apparently, you think one can drive while dead.

She wasn't the driver.

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Response to bunnies (Reply #2)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 10:40 PM

116. Impossible

 

Cars cannot be deadly weapons. No one ever dies because of cars....

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Response to bunnies (Reply #2)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 04:39 AM

138. wtf was he doing there though?

I have to say, guilty or not guilty, I would try to drive away too if an overzealous security guard tried to practically get in my car too. That is downright creepy that he would try to go in her car after her like that in the first place.

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Response to ashling (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 05:27 PM

6. Correct me if I'm wrong, but....

I'd always heard it was illegal to use deadly force solely in defense of property. Hopefully the guard and Wal-Mart doesn't get away with this.

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Response to white_wolf (Reply #6)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 05:37 PM

18. There's an exception in Texas. The property has to be tangible and movable,

 

and the use of force has to occur at night.

Think cattle rustling.

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Response to white_wolf (Reply #6)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 07:41 PM

84. He shot in self defense while being threatened with bodily injury. Not for the scumbag thievery. n/t

 

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Response to gradient (Reply #84)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 07:56 PM

95. because he created the situation that threatened his safety...

...and could easily have avoided it-- if he hadn't been such a cowboy pig.

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Response to gradient (Reply #84)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 09:59 PM

109. Sure. We are an example to the world that violence is the solution for all of our problems.

So how come we haven't solved all these problems?

What would have happened if the cop had just taken down the license plate # and simply summoned her to court, as happens in most civilized countries?

He endangered everyone in that parking lot plus the children in the car, and for what? A couple of dollars worth of slave labor made merchandise.

Amercia, where cheap Chinese made products are more valuable than human life.

.
I wonder how people in countries like Norway eg, manage to 'catch a thief' without killing them? They do manage, it's amazing.

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Response to gradient (Reply #84)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 10:39 PM

114. If it was self-defense, he would have shot the driver.

He shot a passenger.

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Response to gradient (Reply #84)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 01:50 PM

155. Bullshit!

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Response to ashling (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 05:28 PM

7. So we are worse than Saudi Arabia.

Over there, they cut off your hand if you're caught stealing. Here, apparently the penalty is death.

USA! USA! USA!

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Response to ashling (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 05:34 PM

13. there is more to the story, she wasn't the one driving, she was with 2 friends

i don't know how many witnesses or if there is any video of this. but there is a chance where they drove away and he shot at the car to try to stop them.

but he is saying they were trying to run him over .

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Response to JI7 (Reply #13)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 06:07 PM

29. Of course he says that. How else to justify opening fire.

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Response to geckosfeet (Reply #29)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 06:13 PM

36. yeah, if he claims to have been as close as he was to the car

wouldn't he have been able to shoot the driver ?

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Response to ashling (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 05:35 PM

17. This happens all the time: Driver attempts to flee, cops open fire.

The cops ALWAYS say the driver was trying to run them over and they feared for their lives.

But I have to wonder how many of those drivers are actually would-be cop-killers, and how many are just trying to get away.

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Response to Comrade Grumpy (Reply #17)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 06:17 PM

40. I think most are just trying to get away

 

The officer doesn't have a duty to get out of the way .
Most people in a panic think the person standing in front of the car will jump out of the way.

Some cops will chose to jump and let the person flee "some won't"

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Response to Comrade Grumpy (Reply #17)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 06:26 PM

43. This puzzles me as well. Drivers fleeing cops seems to be Standard Operating Procedure...

When the odds of getting away with such are nil. I don't know what will come of this case, and I am not sure if the security guard is "in the clear" on this. But it seems we have someone who hits the gas (with two children in the car) when she is being detained by an armed guard. Is this a learned behavior? Is it a socially-acceptable among those committing these crimes? Is their some miss-placed entitlement to at least one potentially violent way of escaping "the moment?" Is their expectation of "enablement" within the system? Is their a back-burner desire to get shot?

You give 2 possibilities. Fair enough. But what compels or drives someone to do this "all the time?"

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Response to Comrade Grumpy (Reply #17)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 10:24 PM

111. Unfortunately for this version of the story, the cop didn't shoot the driver.

He shot a passenger.

If you are shooting because your life is threatened, why shoot a passenger?

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Response to ashling (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 05:45 PM

20. How did they get the two kids into the car and buckled into their child seats before this happened?

After chasing Frey and the other two women to their car, Campbell opened the door and commanded Frey to get out. But she refused, officials said.


Tragically, Frey wasn't even supposed to be at a Walmart that evening.

Earlier in the year she pleaded guilty to stealing shirts and a package of meat from another Walmart and as part of her plea arrangement she agreed to never enter Walmart stores again.

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Response to FarCenter (Reply #20)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 06:04 PM

26. Do you really think ...

that people stealing are responsible enough to selt belt the children?

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #26)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 06:07 PM

30. especially people who take thier children WITH them to steal. nt

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Response to FarCenter (Reply #20)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 06:28 PM

45. Perhaps they left the kids in the car while they were in the store

Generally thieves aren't known for their correct sense of decency.

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Response to ashling (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 06:02 PM

25. I wonder why security guards ...

(be they off-duty cops, or not) don't just attempt to stop the alleged perpetrator to the point that thy can't detain them ... then stop!

No one would be dead if the security guard had not attempted to open the door; but rather had recorded the license plate number.

Maybe store ought to institute a policy that once the alleged bad guy reaches the parking lot (leaves the store) the only action their guards are to take is record the license plate and call the police.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #25)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 06:18 PM

41. This wasn't just a Walmart or guard service employee -- he was a uniformed law enforcement officer

He's going to apprehend the criminals, according to the laws he's sworn to uphold as a Harris County Sheriff's Deputy.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #25)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 06:21 PM

42. There's really no such thing as a off duty sworn law enforcement officer

 

It is a term used inside the dept when your shift ends.

Some people think it means they stop being sworn LEO's when they clock out.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #25)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 07:36 PM

81. Umm. He's a cop. It's his job to apprehend criminals

 

He was alerted by store security that the perps had been observed stuffing stuff into purses. He had every right to stop and question them, even search them.

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Response to gradient (Reply #81)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 08:24 PM

98. It appears that the Gungeon is missing

one of it's cheerleaders. Yeah, it's just fine to kill a shoplifter when she isn't the one driving the car, and fuck the two kids if they were in the way. You people are fine examples of all that's wrong with the right wing in this country.

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Response to gradient (Reply #81)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 02:13 PM

158. "Deadly Frorce" has some specific rules

The Model Penal Code, although not adopted in all states, restricts police action regarding deadly force. According to the code, officers should not use deadly force unless the action will not endanger innocent bystanders, the suspect used deadly force in committing the crime, or the officers believe a delay in arrest may result in injury or death to other people. (I'd say shooting a firearm in a store parking lot could easily endanger innocent bystanders, let alone the two kids in the car).

In Tennessee v. Garner, 471 U.S. 1, 105 S. Ct. 1694, 85 L. Ed. 2d 1 (1985), the Supreme Court ruled that it is a violation of the Fourth Amendment for police officers to use deadly force to stop fleeing felony suspects who are nonviolent and unarmed.

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Response to ashling (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 06:09 PM

31. People shouldn't be shot for shoplifting.

It's excessive.

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Response to limpyhobbler (Reply #31)


Response to ashling (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 06:12 PM

33. Why does a security guard at WalMart have a gun?

Someone might steal some made in China shit?

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Response to adigal (Reply #33)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 10:46 PM

120. According to the article, if the guard happens to be an off-duty cop

Wal-Mart has them follow police department policy as to whether or not they can be armed.

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Response to ashling (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 06:12 PM

34. The new

2nd Amendment justice system in the USA allows for summary executions if you can convince someone (anyone) after-the-fact that you were acting in self-defense. Since the alleged assailant is usually dead, it becomes the duty of the legal system to prove the shooter was NOT acting in self-defense.

What used to be outright murder is now SYG or self-defense, and all too easy to get away with.

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Response to billh58 (Reply #34)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 06:28 PM

46. Got any data/links to outright murder is "all too easy to get away with?"

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Response to billh58 (Reply #34)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 01:52 PM

156. Which is why gun deaths are at historic lows ... oh wait. nt

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Response to ashling (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 06:13 PM

35. Some police are there to make the world a better place, some are there to enjoy control over others.

 

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Response to ashling (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 06:16 PM

38. We need to kill people over stolen material goods

especially when there are children near by!

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Response to Rex (Reply #38)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 07:39 PM

83. Damn right. Good post.

 

Assuming the sarcasm was misplaced.

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Response to gradient (Reply #83)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 01:32 AM

124. Troll swings

and troll misses!

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Response to ashling (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 06:16 PM

39. And you'll all keep shopping there. Pathetic.

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Response to MichiganVote (Reply #39)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 06:30 PM

48. Who is "you'll?" I know a lot of poor people have to shop there. nt

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Response to Eleanors38 (Reply #48)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 06:33 PM

51. No one forces people to shop at Walmart. No one forces people

to pay money into a company that exploits its workers or supports the suppression and death of workers in depressed areas.

Sometimes the truth hurts.

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Response to MichiganVote (Reply #51)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 06:45 PM

61. Well, your "truth might hurt" a mass of people who probably don't need anymore hurt...

I don't shop at Walmart. I am forced to go to used clothing stores; I REALLY go cheap.

No one really likes their employment practices, another reason I don't go there. But some folks can only afford a one-stop place with cheap products/food, and they may not be up on the politics of the place. Walmart didn't fabricate their model from thin air. My prediction years ago is Walmart will face competition of Family Dollar, Dollar General, and the like because they are even cheaper and more in line with declining wages and living standards. Seems to be coming true.

Most some of us can do is just add another biz to the boycott list.

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Response to Eleanors38 (Reply #61)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 06:57 PM

65. Dignity is costly true. But I don't buy the arguments-sorry

And for what its worth-I happen to know very well the struggles of the US poor and of those usually single with children women who work in the fluorescent sweat shops of Walmart. Not liking W's employment practices is a whole lot different than wearing a garment or eating a potato that some poor slob created in an area of the world that makes US poverty look like a cakewalk.

Walmart is hazardous to humans.

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Response to MichiganVote (Reply #65)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 12:16 PM

144. Boycotts are blunt force instruments, and boycotts may be the only...

practical action to strike back at Walmart; otherwise we find ourselves in a private world of consumer righteousness while condemning millions who are teetering along. Personally, I don't see the average DUer according much dignity or respect to Those people, too much cultural animosity in this post-labor solidarity world.

So, personal boycotts it is.

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Response to MichiganVote (Reply #51)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 07:03 PM

69. The "truth hurts" the most when when you start to understand that....

...Walmart undercuts the pricing of just about every local store. That pretty much forces people to shop there if they're on a strict budget, no matter how they might feel about the store personally. Principle sometimes gets outweighed by necessity. I'm not sure why that seems so hard to understand.

Look around...it's not just Walmart workers being exploited these days.

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Response to OldDem2012 (Reply #69)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 07:12 PM

73. If you can accept that, then you can accept most anything.

I am aware of what Walmart does in its pricing. My spouse works in the soft drink end. Walmart is cutthroat in their pricing and in their dealings with their workers, with their retailers, with everyone.

No matter what you or others have to say, however, you do make the choice to support them and their employment/purchasing patterns by shopping in the Walmart stores.

That means that you support exploiting workers.

That means that you support the Walmart model of employing people part time and encouraging them to support themselves with US benefits

That means that you support their failure to protect the lives of the poor in countries who often earn as little as 30-40 dollars a month.

That means that your budget comes before all of those things. If you're happy with that choice-ok. But it is your choice. No one holds a gun to your head.

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Response to MichiganVote (Reply #73)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 08:44 PM

104. Whatever. nt.

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Response to MichiganVote (Reply #51)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 09:00 PM

106. I'm going to guess that you don't live in a rural area. WalMart is usually the only choice.

They put all the local folk/economy out of business for the Rollback Prices.

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Response to libdem4life (Reply #106)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 09:50 PM

107. I do live in a rural area and I choose not to shop at a merciless shithole like W

Yes I like to save money and yes I need to watch a budget. But I make the choice to save money in other ways.

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Response to MichiganVote (Reply #51)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 01:40 PM

151. And, Walmart does not always have the best prices. IMO it's a mindset that

Walmart is a "go to first" store.

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Response to MichiganVote (Reply #39)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 10:33 PM

112. Are you offering rides to other stores?

After all, lots of people don't have a car and the Walmart is always well-served by buses.

No?

Oh. Well are you offering to pay the difference in price for the people who are shopping there because they can't afford to shop elsewhere?

No?

Oh. Well, are you opening stores that are alternatives to us poor people who don't have other shopping options within a reasonable distance?

No?

Oh. You're just being mean to people you don't know because you haven't bothered to find out anything about them.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #112)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 06:26 PM

164. I am standing up for the millions who are exploited by Walmart. Inclu. you it seems.

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Response to MichiganVote (Reply #164)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 08:34 PM

166. No, you're living in a very small world and refusing to consider the world is bigger

than your life.

Baby clothes. We had to buy some. Guess how many non-Wal-Mart retailers are within an hour that carries them? 1 department store. They charge 10 to 20 times what Wal-Mart charges. I suppose they're probably nicer, but we're talking about clothes that will be worn for 2-4 months.

I would love to go with, say, Babies R Us instead. But Wal-Mart drove the local store out of business. Garage sales? Don't happen here in the winter, since we normally have lots of snow.

So you are arguing I should pay 10-20x the price, pay as much in shipping as the clothes for something online, or pay plenty in gas to get to my next shopping option in order to satisfy your righteous indignation.

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Response to MichiganVote (Reply #39)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 10:23 PM

168. What a load of self righteous bullshit...

Personally I don't shop at Wal-Mart, I have other options. But some people don't, whether or not you "believe the arguments".

I got new for you, if you live in the US and you do not live "off the grid" which you obviously don't, then you have no fucking room to talk about sweatshops and third world poverty conditions. Somewhere down the line you are as guilty as everyone else of exploitation. You were born into it. Get off the high horse and deal with it.

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Response to ashling (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 06:29 PM

47. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

 

From the article : 'She threw it in reverse and tried to run over the deputy,' It's not exactly a happy situation, but when you try to kill a cop, they will generally shoot back. Who would have thought?

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Response to Pacafishmate (Reply #47)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 06:43 PM

59. The only problem with

the expected Gungeon defense of this incident, is that the deceased was not the fucking driver. Yeah, that's the RKBA mantra: summarily execute anyone (everyone) involved and let the 2nd Amendment sort them out. It's the fucking American way.

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Response to billh58 (Reply #59)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 06:50 PM

63. Well, the action that the guard took may have saved his life.

 

I believe the aggressor is always at fault. In this case, the driver who nearly ran over the guard was the aggressor. It's sad that the passenger was hit, but getting into a car whose driver is trying to kill someone is a dumb risk.

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Response to Pacafishmate (Reply #63)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 07:07 PM

71. not trying to open the door of a moving car and stand in it might have helped, too....

The guard was a pig.

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Response to mike_c (Reply #71)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 07:32 PM

80. Apparently Walmart did not drill it into this guys head that it's cheaper to let it go.

 

In the end though, it's the conduct of people like this guy that causes many stores to have no contact loss prevention policies. Better to let a couple hundred bucks of junk go than to deal with a multi-million dollar lawsuit.

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Response to Pacafishmate (Reply #63)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 10:38 PM

113. No, shooting the driver may have saved his life. He shot a passenger.

Shooting a passenger isn't going to stop the vehicle. Which you can tell because the vehicle didn't fucking stop.

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Response to ashling (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 06:38 PM

54. Unless there is a video, no one here knows what really happened

We do know that there are now two children without a mother. Whether that is the fault of the driver or the cop, that fact doesn't change.

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Response to Marrah_G (Reply #54)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 06:59 PM

67. agreed.



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Response to Marrah_G (Reply #54)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 10:48 PM

121. Considering the dead woman wasn't the driver

I'm kinda leaning towards blaming the cop. For thinking that shooting a passenger would stop the car.

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Response to ashling (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 07:10 PM

72. It was an off0duty cop, not a security giard

Guards aren't armed. A cop should know the law and know better, and Wal-Mart should, too.

He should get life. This was murder.

We learned in CCW class it is a felony to even brandish your gun to protect property. YOU WILL GO TO PRISON IF YOU DO SO. Just for pulling a gun on someone stealing your car.

Property theft is not a capital offense.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #72)


Response to gradient (Reply #86)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 07:44 PM

87. Oh wow...

Have a nice visit...

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Response to gradient (Reply #86)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 07:47 PM

90. before you get deep sixed...

...I just wanna thumb my nose.

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Response to gradient (Reply #86)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 07:48 PM

91. You're the scum.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #72)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 10:43 PM

118. He was a cop working as a security guard while off-duty.

From the article, Wal-Mart lets guards who happen to also be cops follow the police department's policy as to whether or not they can be armed.

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Response to ashling (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 07:54 PM

94. Isn't this the Second Time in the Last Month an Alleged

shoplifter has been killed in a Walmart parking lot by Walmart employees?

I'm really not aware of any merchandise at Walmart that is worth more than the life of a person even if they were shoplifting. So why the heck is a guard at Walmart armed? Someone is going to roll that 50-inch TV out the door with no one noticing?

The security guard upon realizing he was not going to be able to stop the alleged criminals should have gotten out of the way of a vehicle that could harm him and called for backup from law enforcement. He is a sheriff in the county and should have been sufficiently trained to know when he was entering a situation that was dangerous to him without backup. These situations often end like this one with someone dead or injured when there was no reason for it.

And don't give me the BS that the situation unfolded too quickly for him to get out of the way. He should never have approached the car and opened the door in the first place. It was unsafe and as a sheriff's deputy he should have known that. If they were hard core criminals they might have had a weapon in the car and he would have exposed himself to getting shot the moment he opened the door of the car.

He should have taken down the license plate number and called his buddies at the sheriff's office to stop the car and arrest the occupants if they had shoplifted. From reading the article he was obviously not in control of the situation. Had he done the proper thing and called in the car to the sheriff's office they could have pulled over the car and been in control of the situation. That might have negated the need to shoot someone.

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Response to dballance (Reply #94)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 08:20 PM

97. But, but, he had

a right -- a 2nd Amendment right -- to stand Walmart's ground I tell ya. And summary executions save the taxpayers so much money don't you know.

And if it's necessary...

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Response to billh58 (Reply #97)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 05:12 PM

162. Sadly I find it best for us all he offed himself

We don't have to incarcerate him or go through very expensive prolonged trials that would doubtfully ever shed a light onto why this horrible tragedy happened. They would likely only find him guilty and sentence him to life in prison. Little real comfort or compensation to the people who lost loved ones.

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Response to dballance (Reply #162)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 05:54 PM

163. I believe that you're referring

to the Mall shooting in Portland. This is a different incident.

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Response to dballance (Reply #94)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 02:55 PM

161. Well, Walmart is the #1 seller of guns in the USA.

I guess this is the vision for 21st America. Probably getting people acclimated to the new economic reality in store for the bottom 30% of the population. Sends a clear message to one of Walmart's key customer demographics...pay the highest cost for the attempted lowest price.

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Response to ashling (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 08:26 PM

99. 100% the fault of republican-party backer Walmart and its repressionist policies and gun violence

 

The family of this poor woman should sue for billions and own this chain.

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Response to BanTheGOP (Reply #99)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 08:38 PM

100. Now, now, you're going

to offend the DU right-wing Republicans who frequent the Gungeon and who are flocking to this thread to defend the poor, poor security guard who was only standing Walmart's ground for them. He was so rattled that he killed the wrong person, but that's okay because he's protected by the Right to kill fellow Americans as stated right there in the 2nd Amendment to the US Constitution.

Guilty as determined by Walmart, no stinking trial necessary, and summary executions are the tax-free Republican way. All hail the 2nd amendment, and the Right to Kill and Bury Anyone (RKBA).

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Response to ashling (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 08:40 PM

101. That area around Greens Road, Greenspoint Mall, known as "Gunspoint" already, and that Wal-Mart

lot is always crowded. Horrible, dangerous situation for all parties. IF it was shoplifting, they had kids in the car. IF they were trying to drive over/away from deputy by accelerating in reverse with the door open - they had KIDS in the car. And, no matter what the deputy was aiming at, there were KIDS IN THE CAR! Just nuts.

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Response to txwhitedove (Reply #101)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 10:18 PM

110. 10411 North Freeway Houston, TX 77037‎

On Google it is rated a 3 out of 30. The comments would not make one wish to shop there.

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Response to ashling (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 11:25 PM

123. But she shouldn't have been at the Walmart at all

"Earlier in the year she pleaded guilty to stealing shirts and a package of meat from another Walmart and as part of her plea arrangement she agreed to never enter Walmart stores again."


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Response to TexasBushwhacker (Reply #123)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 01:49 AM

125. Could you point out where that order calls for her execution if she does go in a Wal-Mart? (nt)

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Response to ashling (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 02:01 AM

130. Wow. Look at all the DU'ers rallying in support of this

Does the cop's last name happen to be Zimmerman? You'd think so, the way so many are lining up to shake his hand

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #130)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 02:24 AM

134. I think it's horrifying this idiot took the life of a person over merchandise

and that they should be put away for a looong time as an example to other rent-a-cops.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #130)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 01:20 PM

147. You're right. It's disgusting

Cheap shit is so worth killing over.... Ugh!

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Response to ashling (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 04:35 AM

137. I used to work at the local Wal Mart here.

There is a culture of paranoia over shoplifting at Wal Mart. It is more than just a regular concern about shoplifting that most stores would have. It is an outright paranoia. No other store has police parked in front of the store 24/7/365 like Wal Mart here does. They will inspect your grocery cart to make sure nothing is hidden in the bottom. They will make you take every last thing out of the cart even if the last thing in there is large and heavy. They will stop you and inspect the cart on the way out the door and demand to see your receipt.

While you are in the store, they have people that are hired to look like other shoppers, but paid to spy on real shoppers. They will follow you around and watch your every move. They are supposed to look like other shoppers, but they are obvious in how they are watching your every move. I remember thinking that part was particularly creepy. Since working there ages ago, I have noticed the spy shoppers a lot more often. They are easy to spot. They have no cart and no items with them, but they walk through the store a really long time and will get right where you are acting like they are looking for something. Meanwhile, while they distract you trying to get you to "help" them look for some item, they will inspect your cart and look even in your private bag or purse. It is very noticeable if you know about that little trick they use.


The amount of paranoia about shoplifting at Wal Mart is overblown, obsessive, creepy, way more than the usual concern you might see at a store. I'm not the least bit surprised by this. I am sad for the family, but not surprised by a Wal Mart security guard's actions.

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Response to Jamastiene (Reply #137)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 10:15 AM

140. Local magistrates and police are overwhelmed by Walmart shoplifting cases.

Walmart will prosecute for theft of an item under $1. The cost to the taxpayers runs into the hundreds and even thousands for each case. There is talk of changes in the way these cases are handled to force some of the costs back onto Walmart.

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Response to PA Democrat (Reply #140)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 01:56 PM

157. Why is that Walmart's fault

Seems like a faulty law. You are going to charge people to enforce laws? There is so much wrong with that.

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Response to joeglow3 (Reply #157)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 10:07 PM

167. Have someone steal less than a dollar from you.

See if the police will prosecute the person who stole it for you, spending multitudes of taxpayers' money. It won't happen. They will tell you to watch your money closer yourself, because that is such a small amount to go through all that for. Why should Wal Mart be that paranoid and greedy and get that much special attention the rest of us would never get, or have the audacity to ask for?

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Response to Jamastiene (Reply #167)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 02:40 PM

172. Exactly.

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Response to joeglow3 (Reply #157)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 02:39 PM

171. Local cops are spending thousands of hours every year

at magistrate's hearings over thefts of under $10 worth of merchandise. That is time that they are not out patrolling the streets and answering calls which may be of a more threatening nature. In a time of limited government resources, it is understandable that local governments feel Walmart should represent themselves in court and not use precious police resources.

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Response to ashling (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 10:36 AM

142. Did I miss the part where she was tried and convicted of shoplifting?

Because the only thing that I see is an armed idiot working in the capacity of an UNARMED security guard who happens to also work as a Deputy shooting an unarmed person in a car with two children for a PETTY crime HE suspected her of.

Now, I have NO doubt that she was found dead with merchandise on her--but have no idea if it was planted on her after she was murdered or if she actually took it out of the store.

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Response to ashling (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 01:27 PM

148. So the price of a stolen TV is now death?

For chrissake.

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Response to ashling (Original post)


Response to ashling (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 01:46 PM

153. $$$$$ first, profit first, deaths ... just collateral damage. People last. n/t

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Response to ashling (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 02:24 PM

159. The off duty cop.

Should be fired and charged with "reckless endangerment" at the very least for shooting into a car with kids in it. Cops are trained very well in positioning and approching a running vehicle that is still being controlled by the suspect. He should have never put himself in a position to get run over or even hit by the car. If the car takes off while he is approching it you take the plate number and report it the on duty police. You don't draw your weapon on someone you only "suspect" of a petty theft.

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Response to ashling (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 02:30 PM

160. Fucking crazy gun nut. No different than

the recent mall shooting.

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Response to ashling (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 10:27 PM

169. DU is getting better. Not a single post excoriating the woman for shopping at Walmart.

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Response to Robb (Reply #169)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 02:31 PM

170. Perhaps you missed this one:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1962793

And it's subsequent posts...

I did laugh at your post though

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