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Tue Dec 11, 2012, 05:35 AM

should parents of bullies be held liable?

Bullies threw out my sweet nieces books out of the school bus...she doesn't want to complain as it might mean more trouble....and I have been really mad at the whole system....

I think the parents of bullies should be fined heavily...and the money should be used to educate kids on bullying....

103 replies, 5738 views

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Reply should parents of bullies be held liable? (Original post)
srican69 Dec 2012 OP
bakpakr Dec 2012 #1
srican69 Dec 2012 #10
jeff47 Dec 2012 #22
KitSileya Dec 2012 #65
HughBeaumont Dec 2012 #2
srican69 Dec 2012 #11
white_wolf Dec 2012 #31
srican69 Dec 2012 #34
white_wolf Dec 2012 #37
blueamy66 Dec 2012 #96
Posteritatis Dec 2012 #3
In_The_Wind Dec 2012 #6
AngryOldDem Dec 2012 #4
srican69 Dec 2012 #9
strategery blunder Dec 2012 #14
eridani Dec 2012 #5
srican69 Dec 2012 #8
JesterCS Dec 2012 #7
Mariana Dec 2012 #13
JesterCS Dec 2012 #62
Mariana Dec 2012 #64
raccoon Dec 2012 #78
kelliekat44 Dec 2012 #38
MassedPole Dec 2012 #12
Odin2005 Dec 2012 #15
jberryhill Dec 2012 #54
Odin2005 Dec 2012 #63
slackmaster Dec 2012 #16
renate Dec 2012 #17
Stinky The Clown Dec 2012 #18
slackmaster Dec 2012 #19
srican69 Dec 2012 #26
TForbster Dec 2012 #20
libdem4life Dec 2012 #21
Lone_Star_Dem Dec 2012 #23
Capt. Obvious Dec 2012 #24
srican69 Dec 2012 #25
southernyankeebelle Dec 2012 #27
srican69 Dec 2012 #28
southernyankeebelle Dec 2012 #35
scratcho Dec 2012 #29
srican69 Dec 2012 #30
GaYellowDawg Dec 2012 #32
southernyankeebelle Dec 2012 #39
pnwmom Dec 2012 #73
southernyankeebelle Dec 2012 #81
pnwmom Dec 2012 #84
southernyankeebelle Dec 2012 #89
raccoon Dec 2012 #79
southernyankeebelle Dec 2012 #82
raccoon Dec 2012 #83
southernyankeebelle Dec 2012 #88
loyalsister Dec 2012 #40
Mariana Dec 2012 #52
loyalsister Dec 2012 #53
Mariana Dec 2012 #55
jeff47 Dec 2012 #68
GaYellowDawg Dec 2012 #95
loyalsister Dec 2012 #98
GaYellowDawg Dec 2012 #99
loyalsister Dec 2012 #100
abelenkpe Dec 2012 #51
Mel Content Dec 2012 #33
Sheldon Cooper Dec 2012 #36
pnwmom Dec 2012 #41
scratcho Dec 2012 #43
pnwmom Dec 2012 #49
scratcho Dec 2012 #60
jeff47 Dec 2012 #69
pnwmom Dec 2012 #72
jeff47 Dec 2012 #74
pnwmom Dec 2012 #75
jeff47 Dec 2012 #77
pnwmom Dec 2012 #85
jeff47 Dec 2012 #86
pnwmom Dec 2012 #92
blueamy66 Dec 2012 #97
unblock Dec 2012 #42
srican69 Dec 2012 #44
unblock Dec 2012 #45
gollygee Dec 2012 #87
randomtagger Dec 2012 #46
srican69 Dec 2012 #47
SheilaT Dec 2012 #48
srican69 Dec 2012 #56
SheilaT Dec 2012 #93
jwirr Dec 2012 #50
BlueJazz Dec 2012 #57
former-republican Dec 2012 #58
srican69 Dec 2012 #59
former-republican Dec 2012 #61
lonestarnot Dec 2012 #66
flvegan Dec 2012 #67
lightcameron Dec 2012 #70
Mariana Dec 2012 #71
Live and Learn Dec 2012 #76
Comrade_McKenzie Dec 2012 #80
Mel Content Dec 2012 #90
srican69 Dec 2012 #91
GaYellowDawg Dec 2012 #94
Mel Content Dec 2012 #102
Rider3 Dec 2012 #101
DainBramaged Dec 2012 #103

Response to srican69 (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 06:19 AM

1. Sorta Kinda Agree But,

I have a niece that is a bully. Due to no one yanking a knot in her butt she has learned that the meaner and nastier she gets the more she gets her way. I have tried to teach her but have been rebuffed by her mother and grandparents. She has gotten into fights in school, been arrested, suspended from school. She can be extremely nasty and down right dangerous.

When she does get into trouble she does not care because as she puts it, it does not effect her, it effects her mom. Her mom has been the one to pay all the fines she has gotten. Suspensions to her are free days off school. Arrests to her are just badges of honor.

We need to devise a system that effects the bullies directly along with holding the parents accountable.

One time she was bullying a neighbor. They would not give in to her demands. So she was going to break a window on their car. I stepped in before she could and told her if she breaks the window she would have to pay to have it fixed. She told me no she wouldn't her mom would so she did not care. I then came up with a little white lie out of desperation to teach her a lesson. I told her that I would help the owners of the car have a court order put in place that would hold her financially accountable in that her mom would not have to pay. There would be a court order put in place stating that as soon as she got a job the money for the repairs would be deducted from her pay no matter how far in the future she got a job. The order would be held for as long as the amount went unpaid. Her reply was she would just not get a job. I told her fine then it would be taken in the form of her possessions being seized and sold to pay the money.

Now it was a lie but it did have the desired effect, It got her attention and for that incident stopped the bullying.

I am thinking that such a system could be implemented. Hold the bully accountable.

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Response to bakpakr (Reply #1)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 07:36 AM

10. I agree with you .. its has to be a combination ... I think instituting a searchable

bullying record for each child that will remain on file for life should be a strong deterrent.

The kid should be then given a chance to remedy his/her record by being nice.

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Response to bakpakr (Reply #1)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 02:01 PM

22. Fact is her mom needs to be applying those punishments

and she currently isn't. If that requires fines to change, so be it.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #22)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 01:25 AM

65. Heck, if she isn't, she's essentially abusing her kid.

A parent is supposed to raise their children. If they don't, and the child bullies her way thru the world without any consequences, then the parent is abusing the child and CPS should be involved. The child is losing parts of her education, as well as gaining quite a record. I'm surprised anyone hasn't alerted already.

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Response to srican69 (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 06:22 AM

2. Many of my antagonists were kids of good teachers.

Sometimes good people just give birth to uncaring assholes. Peer environment also plays a role.

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Response to HughBeaumont (Reply #2)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 10:37 AM

11. That does not absolve them of the responsibility of straightening their kids out

I might be a swell guy - but if my dog bites someone then I would be responsible.

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Response to srican69 (Reply #11)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 02:32 PM

31. Yes, but you legally own your dog. You don't own your kids.

You can't be held responsible for their actions.

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Response to white_wolf (Reply #31)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 02:35 PM

34. disagree .... I might not own my kids ... but I am responsible for their actions. NT

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Response to srican69 (Reply #34)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 02:40 PM

37. To an extent, but I don't think you can punish parents for their kid's actions.

My brother was an asshole to everyone growing up and no matter how hard my parents tried he just wouldn't learn.

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Response to white_wolf (Reply #31)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 10:12 AM

96. I'm pretty sure that parents are responsible

 

in civil courts for their child's negligent act(s).

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Response to srican69 (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 06:24 AM

3. Parents of bullies should *also* be held liable. (nt)

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Response to Posteritatis (Reply #3)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 07:00 AM

6. I agree.

Parents should be held accountable for their children's behavior.

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Response to srican69 (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 06:48 AM

4. My son was bullied and my daughter was sexually harassed in elementary school

...by two brothers who had recently moved into the neighborhood.

Unfortunately, cases like your niece's and my kids' put the lie to the schools' so-called "zero tolerance" attitude toward bullying. Instead of fines, the school can take parents to task on their kids' behavior by institutuing a graduated punishment system for each incidence of bullying, up to and including expulsion. If schools mean what they say about "zero tolerance" (which became a huge joke in my house while this was going on) then they need to back it up.

In your niece's case, keep on the school until something is done. Her parents and you are her best advocates. If she is afraid to speak up, then that is a huge problem in and of itself. In my daughter's case, her incident happened on a Friday (the kid grabbed her breast in the hallway) and the school wanted to let it ride until Monday. I said no, it was going to be dealt with then and there. If memory serves the kid got a one-day vacation from school. But it was clear that the school thought it was no big deal.

As for my son, these kids were making his life a living hell. What finally happened with that was *I* had to make the call to these little shits' mother and explain what was going on (and boy, that was one FUN conversation).

Again -- zero tolerance. Two of the most unintentionally funny, mutually exclusive phrases in the English language.

I wish you and your niece the best of luck.

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Response to AngryOldDem (Reply #4)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 07:32 AM

9. some parents of bullies are supportive of their kids and are totally blind to their

misdeeds instead of rebuking them.

I really think laws against bullying should be devised at the state level and bullying incidents should become a part of the kids criminal history that can be searched by colleges/future employers.....hopefully that will put fear into these monster kids

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Response to AngryOldDem (Reply #4)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 12:25 PM

14. Zero tolerance for being bullied, I always called it

Throw the book at self-defense, while the bully walks away scot-free...

Yes, I've seen teachers intervene to stop bullying, but administrators would rather suspend the first kid who comes in that office than do some investigation into the root of the problem...

...and invariably the first kid in that office is the one who got beaten on for months, with no one around him having a care in the world, and he finally decided to stand up for himself and now gets the book thrown at him...

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Response to srican69 (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 06:48 AM

5. Depends how old the kid is

If the bully is still young, the parent can still do something about it. Adolescents need to be held responsible for their own behavior.

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Response to eridani (Reply #5)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 07:23 AM

8. my neice is 9 the bully is around the same age

its a tricky sort of age

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Response to srican69 (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 07:18 AM

7. Yes, Bullying is a learned behavior n/t

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Response to JesterCS (Reply #7)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 10:57 AM

13. Sometimes it's learned at school.

Kids who act badly don't always learn their shitty behavior at home.

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Response to Mariana (Reply #13)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 07:27 PM

62. True, however...

most either have a chip on their shoulder, or think they are better than others.

I was bullied from 2nd grade on up til graduation. It messed me up bigtime. Now I get nervous just going out in public

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Response to JesterCS (Reply #62)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 09:22 PM

64. I was bullied, too.

Very badly in elementary school and middle school, not so much in high school fortunately. It is a dreadful experience and should not be permitted under any circumstances, regardless of where and when the bullies learned to act that way. I also think any actual crimes, like assaults, should be reported to the police at once, rather than expecting the school personnel to handle it. I don't like the attitude that if it takes place in a school, it's not really a crime.

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Response to Mariana (Reply #64)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 08:50 AM

78. ITA about the police! nt

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Response to JesterCS (Reply #7)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 02:42 PM

38. "Trai n up a child..." Children are basically taught bullying either directly or indirectly. nt

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Response to srican69 (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 10:46 AM

12. I wonder if it would be prudent that if school does nothing about bullying.

 

I wonder if parents could Sue the school for not providing a safe learning environment.

The school has to learn the hard way to stop bullying. That was is taking away money for that school district and people in charge.

Also if Bullying extends to physical violence in the school and the school does not stop the problem file a police report on the bully.

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Response to srican69 (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 01:19 PM

15. Yes, behind most bullies are negligent or clueless parents.

The ones who get OUTRAGED when you accuse their perfect little angel of being a bully.

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #15)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 06:16 PM

54. Behind a lot more of them are abusive parents

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #54)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 08:01 PM

63. That, too.

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Response to srican69 (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 01:20 PM

16. Yes, absolutely.

 

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Response to srican69 (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 01:49 PM

17. they should be required to do SOMETHING

There's probably a middle ground between "some bullies have good parents, so we can't make all parents responsible" and "until they are adults the parents are responsible." Maybe they should be required to do community service with their kids, or to take anti-bullying classes with their kids... something that can be standardized and documented. (I suggested standardized, even though every case is different, because that eliminates the possibility of a kid charming his or her way out of punishment or parents' threatening their way out of it.) Depending on the severity of the incident(s), maybe counseling should be required, like it is for drunk drivers. After that, I think that if parents are seen to have really tried their best to fix the problem, they shouldn't be held criminally liable.

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Response to srican69 (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 01:51 PM

18. Should parents of murderers be put to death, too? Should parents of bank robbers . . . . .

. . . . get 30 years? Should children pay the debts of their elderly parents or go to jail?

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Response to Stinky The Clown (Reply #18)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 01:53 PM

19. Juvenile bank robbers who are still living under their parents' roof, sure.

 

Adult bank robbers, no.

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Response to Stinky The Clown (Reply #18)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 02:14 PM

26. Lousy analogies ....a better one is that of a dog owner .. if my dog bites anyone - you might want

to bet your last dollar that I am getting into some sort of trouble ..

A parent is responsible for the actions of his/her kid.

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Response to srican69 (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 01:53 PM

20. Yes. Bullies Don't Like Being Bullied

 

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Response to srican69 (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 01:57 PM

21. Yes they should...and be required to take parenting classes. Beyond that, there's always Juvenile

Hall. The parents usually don't do anything because they have lost control. Juvie will help them get back in control.

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Response to srican69 (Original post)


Response to srican69 (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 02:05 PM

24. I think the parents of both parties

should meet behind the school to fight it out.

No hair pulling, scratching or low blows.

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Response to Capt. Obvious (Reply #24)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 02:08 PM

25. That is an extremely naive strategy ..

This will only work if both sets of parents are 'normal'

lots of times the parents of bullies are in extreme denial and more than happy to deflect blame on the victims of their brats ... Ive talked to the mother of a kid who had no problem in whipping out F words and B words ... kids live in extremely messed up households ... why should I subject myself or my family to such garbage?

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Response to srican69 (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 02:16 PM

27. What did the school bus driver do? He should have stopped the bus and made those children get

 

off and get the books. If I were you I would talk with the parents of the buillies first. If nothing happens I would speak with the bus driver and the principal.

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Response to southernyankeebelle (Reply #27)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 02:20 PM

28. seriously ? and what if a car runs over the kid?

The bus has a monitor ...on that particular day there was a different monitor who did not do anything

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Response to srican69 (Reply #28)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 02:36 PM

35. The bus driver on my grandkids bus tell the kids not to talk loud and by god they don't. He

 

isn't mean but the BUS DRIVER sets the rules on their bus. There are cause and effect when a kid doesn't listen. I remember when my son was in high school and he was taking the bus he accidently left a empty can on the bus. He was kicked off the bus for a week. I thought there had to be more to this story and I thought my son was lying to us. Come to find out it was true. I couldn't believe it.I asked why couldn't there be a punishment like making sure he cleaned the bus out or washing the bus windows. No that is what he did. He damn well learned from that. The next year we drove him to school and back until he got his drivers licenses. He graduated in 1990 and he still is driving that same truck. I don't automatically think my kid is right all the time. If my kid was bullying a child I'd want to know and nip it in the butt.

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Response to srican69 (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 02:26 PM

29. I don't recommend this.

I had a friend whose boy was being pushed around and bullied at school and when they wouldn't do anything about it,he parked by the playground and watched his kid get shoved and hit. That is ,he waited for a second or two and went over to the bullies and started pushing them down and hollering "how do you like it"? Of course he got in trouble ,but actually the bullying stopped.

One day,my oldest boy did not get off the bus when I was there to pick him up,so I called his friends until I found him. Turns out a much bigger kid punched his lunch box almost flat and told him he was going to kick his ass when he got off the bus,so he got off early at his friends house. Hey--I love kitties,puppies ,babies, nature and all and I'm generally a very peacefull person--BUT--NO ONE FOOLS WITH FAMILY. I'm not proud of this,but I about wrecked my car getting to their house,ran into their porch with it,stomped up to the door and when some in their family opened the door, I informed them that every ass in the house was going to be kicked if my son was ever bothered again! I definately flew right off the handle. I hate to see anyone bullied (including animals)or embarrassed and when I see it--I do something about it.

Sorry for the long story---it's just me. And YES--parents are the supposed guides to childrens behaviour,except in the case of a child having bad brain wiring. That's another matter. Bullying children are probably being bullied by their parents or there are so many children in a family that acting out is their way if getting attention.

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Response to scratcho (Reply #29)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 02:30 PM

30. I am so with you on this ....

If someone touches my daughter ... I am SO going to jail

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Response to srican69 (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 02:34 PM

32. NO.

I have 2 siblings. One is a wonderful, supportive person. The other is a complete piece of shit who was mentally and emotionally abusive to my parents as my dad fought and succumbed to cancer. I don't blame my parents for the latter, and neither should anyone else. Sometimes kids turn out bad, no matter how their parents are.

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Response to GaYellowDawg (Reply #32)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 02:45 PM

39. I often wonder how siblings raised in one family can turn out so different.

 

I remember my younger sister being very ill when she was young. My parents worried and spoiled her because they thought she was going to die. As it turned out she lived (thank god). But she would drive my parents crazy. I remember once and I will never forget it when she was about 8 my parents packed a suitcase and told her they were going to take her to the orphanage. Well we were home with our mother and crying our eyes out begging her not to send her away and promising her she will be good. She said no waiting for dad to come get her from work. She started crying also and all of us kids starting crying more until dad came home. We all begged him and he looked at my sister and asked her if she was going to stop this behavior. She said yes and he said ok he wouldn't take her. Years later we found out the luggage was empty and he had no attentions on taking her anywhere. But it worked. LOL but to this day she still can be annoying.

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Response to southernyankeebelle (Reply #39)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 02:50 AM

73. I'm sorry, southernyankeebelle, but you and your siblings were right to cry your "eyes out"

about your parents' threats to "take her to the orphanage." (Whether or not she came from an orphanage.)

Your parents were doing the best they could -- but their best in this case was emotionally abusive. It may have temporarily "worked," but it didn't really change her. And you and she and your other siblings were all taught a lesson that stuck with you for years: that your parents would be willing to abandon you if you didn't behave.


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Response to pnwmom (Reply #73)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 09:35 AM

81. Well believe it or not they really were great parents. We did things as a family. If my

 

parents went out they took us. If kids weren't allowed to go then they didn't go. My mother was a stay at home mom who cooked every meal (not out of cans) and when we got home from school she was there. Dad would take us kids out on the weekends to different places to give our mom a break to herself. I really did have great parents. In later life they ended up having 2 more kids that weren't planned. My mother was in her early 40s when my sister came into the world. I was a teen and I loved helping my mother with the new babies. We weren't allowed to run with just anyone around. All our friends could come over our house and play. My parents never minded that. I remember my father being in his late 40s working hard after he retired from the military. The neighborhood kids would come over and ask if he could come out and play. Yep little kids. We lived in a row home (an end unit). Across the street was a hugh field empty. Well he would take us older teens and my little sister was older around 10 and my little brother was around 4 across the field and all the kids in the neighborhood would come over and we all would play softball. I mean all ages and everyone had a ball. That was the kind of dad I had. He was always at my little sister games. When my dad died at the age of 50 believe it or not many of the neighborhood came to his funeral home. The teammates of my little sister came in their uniforms. My one sister has always been annoying because she wants everything her way. But I'd say 5 kids out of 6 wasn't to bad. Oh when we were stationed in the Phillipines my dad got the soldiers together and built us kids in the neighborhood a nice playground area. Also he played Santa Claus at the Phillipine orphanage. So from your out look I can understand why you would say that. But I see a totally different side to my parents. Everyday I miss them more. Oh by the way my annoying sister realizes what her part was like and admits she was a brat at times. I love her but I being a mother now and a grandmother totally can see when a parent is pushed. I look back and wonder how in the world my poor mother did it with 6 kids.

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Response to southernyankeebelle (Reply #81)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 10:05 AM

84. I'm glad to hear this, southernyankeebell.

Last edited Wed Dec 12, 2012, 11:03 AM - Edit history (1)

Your family sounds wonderful. This must have been an isolated incident. I just didn't think it was a laughing matter. (Part of my background is that I know a couple young women who DID come from orphanages. There could be no more terrifying a threat than to pretend to send them back.)

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #84)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 10:43 AM

89. I understand your point of view. None of my siblings were born in an orphanage. But I will tell

 

you my husband was in an orphanage until is was adopted at 4 or 5 and brought here to the states from Germany. His parents were older so they didn't want a baby.

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Response to southernyankeebelle (Reply #39)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 08:55 AM

79. Because siblings raised in one family can be treated so differently by parents.


In some families, one kid can get away with a lot that the others don't get away with.



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Response to raccoon (Reply #79)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 09:37 AM

82. True but it still is something to see. I don't think my parents tried to have favorites but I guess

 

they may have. You know its only natural to favor the ones who are better behaved.

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Response to southernyankeebelle (Reply #82)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 10:01 AM

83. But sometimes maybe they are better behaved BECAUSE they are favored! nt

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Response to raccoon (Reply #83)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 10:40 AM

88. That is true am sure.

 

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Response to GaYellowDawg (Reply #32)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 02:49 PM

40. The exception doesn't disprove the rule

More often than not bullying is learned behavior. It's sort of like how you know that a 3 yr. old who uses profanity freely probably learned the words from their parents. It is possible that the kid watches movies with such profanity or violence as well. Parents have friends who behave in such ways, etc. Either way, the parents play a role in what behaviors a child adopts.
"Holding them accountable" does not necessarily mean punishment. It does mean that parents be required to examine, with an open mind, where their kids might be learning those behaviors.

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Response to loyalsister (Reply #40)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 06:03 PM

52. Bullying is certainly learned behavior.

Some kids learn it at school. Once a child has been attending school for awhile, it's not right to automatically assume his or her behavior problems originate in the home.

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Response to Mariana (Reply #52)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 06:13 PM

53. Automatically assuming vs questioning a likely scenario

Yes kids learn from other kids. Wouldn't it be appropriate to give the parents a heads up about behavior? Maybe the parents would be willing to question why the kid was open to joining in on that behavior?

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Response to loyalsister (Reply #53)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 06:28 PM

55. The parents need to be told, of course.

Sometimes the schools aren't terribly conscientious about doing so. My kid developed a behavior problem at school when she was is first grade, that she never exhibited at home. It went on for months before I ever heard anything about it.

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Response to Mariana (Reply #52)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 01:34 AM

68. Whether or not it originates at home, the parent's job is to stop it. (nt)

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Response to loyalsister (Reply #40)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 10:00 AM

95. How do you know it's the exception?

I've seen a lot of very good people have multiple kids and have at least one of them turn out to be a bully or an asshole. Sometimes what kids do is their fault and their decision, doing what they know to be wrong simply because they feel like doing it. Not all kids are 3. They can be held accountable not too long after that.

Informing the parents is just fine. But punishing the parents? I think that's ridiculous.

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Response to GaYellowDawg (Reply #95)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 10:22 AM

98. Correlation is not cause

But when there is a positive correlation it is reasonable to look for a source that has been identified as strongly linked.

http://www.mariposarespect.org/pdf/The%20Link%20Between%20Bullying%20and%20Domestic%20Violence.pdf

I'm not convinced that punishing the parents would be the best idea because if there is a domestic violence situation, they may retaliate by hurting the kids. But, it is foolish to believe that most kids who come from homes where there is domestic abuse are not bullies. People learn from their role models and for children, those role models are their parents. The distinction here is between checking out what may be a symptom as opposed to writing the kid off as satan's spawn.

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Response to loyalsister (Reply #98)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 10:39 AM

99. No, it's not.

You said

it is foolish to believe that most kids who come from homes where there is domestic abuse are not bullies.


I would also say that it is foolish to believe that most kids who are bullies come from homes where there is domestic abuse. For children, it's true that role models are parents, but they are not the only role models.

Children aren't automatons that entirely emulate their parents. They have a sense of what's right and wrong. Sometimes they do the wrong thing because they feel like it, or think it's fun, or get some kind of kick out of it. Assuming that parents are automatically the cause of a child being a bully is very, very problematic. When you punish parents for a child being a bully, you're assuming that the parent is the problem, instead of enlisting the parent as part of a solution. But the kid needs to be vigorously punished. They need to have something that they really value taken away, whether it's a possession, a privilege, or an activity. They need to suffer loss and emotional pain for the pain they've inflicted, so that they think twice about bullying again.

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Response to GaYellowDawg (Reply #99)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 01:32 PM

100. "Children aren't automatons that entirely emulate their parents"

That was not my claim, but my sister, whose 3 yr. old daughter dropped an f bomb at thanksgiving was quick to take some time to evaluate her own language use. Sure enough she concluded that her daughter picked it up from her.

Kids who have parents who use drugs are more likely to do so. Kids who come from homes where parents smoke, and use alcohol extensively are also more likely to use drugs because those are the gateway drugs. People who come from homes where domestic violence is prevalent are more likely to become abusers themselves. When kids commit crimes or act out violently, the likelihood that those elements are present in their homes is pretty high.

Do you believe that kids self teach themselves good manners? Do you disbelieve that children with highly engaged parents do better in school than their peers who do not have such support?

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Response to GaYellowDawg (Reply #32)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 05:59 PM

51. +1 nt

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Response to srican69 (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 02:34 PM

33. Parents should be held liable for the actions of minor children.

 

It might make some people think twice before reproducing...If you don't really want to be a parent- then don't become one.

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Response to srican69 (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 02:38 PM

36. No. Sometimes good people who do all the right things still end up with

asshole kids.

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Response to srican69 (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 03:01 PM

41. No. People with poor parenting skills would then bully their kids

in an effort to prevent their kids from bullying others.

And sometimes the parents aren't at fault. The child learned bullying from other kids or the child has an emotional disorder with biological roots.

Bullies shouldn't be ignored, however. The schools should make sure they get therapy.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #41)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 03:09 PM

43. I also think------

that bullying would be a problem encompassing the entire family. The parents should be looked at carefully and helped if possible and needed. Kids come in as (almost) blank slates. The parents write on those slates(as it were) on a daily basis.

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Response to scratcho (Reply #43)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 05:15 PM

49. I agree with you except for the blank slate part.

While environment is very important, biological factors have an influence on conditions that can lead to aggressive and violent behavior.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetics_of_aggression

In other words genetics bring such controversy because evidence suggests that genes do play a role in behaviour. For example, people with a version of the Monoamine oxidase A gene that creates less of the enzyme tend to be considerably more impulsive and aggressive. It has been estimated by researchers that at least a 100 studies have shown that genes play a role in crimes. In addition, genetics has revealed the heritability coefficient for psychopathy is a startling 50%. For example, Kevin Beaver concluded (from a published Biological Psychiatry paper) that adoptees from biological parents who had not been arrested were less likely to be arrested, sentenced to probation, incarcerated, and arrested multiple times then compared with adoptees whose biological parents who had broken the law. On the other hand, there have been no conclusive findings suggesting its causes are all either genetic or environmental. Even though the MAOA-L variant is particularly common and occurs in about 40% of the (mostly male) population, the majority of these people have never committed a crime. Contrastingly, males who had this variant were more likely to have a predisposition to violence (a study headed by Andreas Meyer-Lindenberg). Opponents argue that Mayer-Lindenberg’s findings should be interpreted with caution. They state that the MAOA-L allele gene is just one of several other genes that increase the risk of violence and one of many from which are still yet to be identified. This subtle genetic difference to tip the balance toward aggressive behaviour is not a significant clinical finding as some environmental trigger (such as maltreatment during childhood) is still required to bend these people towards violence. For example, Kevin Beaver, after studying twins and siblings, discovered genetics played no role in any violent behavior in boys who were not exposed to any risk factors. On the other, the positive environment had prevented the genetic switches. Mr. Beaver found that in boys who had eight or more risk factors, genes did explained 80 percent of their violence. In other words, genes can be used as excusing one’s behaviour and that the responsibility should always reside with the individual. However, most in the field agree that genes are ruled by the environment, which can either mute or aggravate violent impulses but the subject still raises controversial questions (such as genes influencing sentencing, identifying biological markers for violence in children, etc, etc.).

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #49)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 06:59 PM

60. Good post.

I think a familys social position including taking into account geographical location in a society is a strong determininant into causes of anti-social behaviour. The crime rate ,for example,would be miniscule on Martha's Vineyard as compared to south central LA. I suppose I'm stating the obvious here and I'm certainly not familiar with monoamine oxidase A. But I intend to become so.

Experiment on PBS had 3 and 5 month old babies observing 3 puppets,(looked like cute little Teddy Bears)one on each side of a small box with a lid that could be opened and one just behind the box that was trying to open the lid. The puppets on the sides of the box were identified by wearing little shorts differant only in color. One blue and one light red. Let's call the puppet on the left,the helpfull (good)puppet and the puppet on the right ,the unhelpfull(bad) puppet.

When the little CENTER puppet tried to open the box and was struggling and could not open the box,the puppet on the left immediately helped the center puppet open the box. Conversly ,not only did the puppet on the right not help the CENTER puppet open the box,but jumped up and slammed it shut,depriving the CENTER puppet from opening it and/or shutting it when it was partly open.

Hope that's clear. Now the 3 and 5 month olds,when the puppets were then put right in front of them in what could be recognized by even a baby as a "here=take one--86% of the time,the babies chose the helpfull puppet. The 3 month old shown wasn't even crawling,but could raise it's head up to watch and chose.

NOW,the maybe the other 14% is some kind of indication that those who study these matters should be interested in. Perhaps this could be indicative of a pre-determined behaviour that could manifest in an anti-social manner later on or on a continual basis as one grows. Why did 14% of the babies pick the one that slammed the lid instead of-------well you know.

There were other experiments on the show--but that's enough.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #41)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 01:39 AM

69. Even if the parents didn't cause the bullying, it's the parents job to fix it.

So yes, the parent is still responsible even if the kid learned bullying at school or due to some disorder.

As for "what if the parent bullies", well that's an issue for CPS to sort out. Since it's what they do whether or not the kid is a bully.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #69)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 02:40 AM

72. Are parents gods? Can they magically control everything their children do

and everything that happens to them? And every brain or other disorder their children might have?

A child could act out at school despite the fact that that child is in treatment. The therapist's job is to "fix" the child. Should the therapist also be held responsible?

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #72)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 02:59 AM

74. If the kid needs therapy, it's their job to get it.

If the kid just needs lessons in how to not be an asshole, they can probably do that without a professional.

The therapist's job is to "fix" the child. Should the therapist also be held responsible?

The joy of being a parent is we're responsible, even if it's not our fault.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #74)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 04:13 AM

75. That doesn't mean that we should be legally responsible for actions

out of our control.

If a parent lends a car to a teen who then drinks while driving, the parent should be legally responsible.

But if a teen steals a car, then his parents shouldn't be legally responsible -- it was the teen's choice and out of the parents' control.

If a parent leaves a gun around and his child takes it to school, then the parent should be legally responsible for the consequences.

If, on the way to school, a child finds a gun in the bushes and brings it to school, then the parent should not be responsible for the consequences.

It would be nice and simple to say that parents are responsible for everything their children do, but it's unrealistic and unfair.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #75)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 08:47 AM

77. Again, being the parent means we are responsible, even when it's not fair. (nt)

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #77)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 10:07 AM

85. Not in my state, it doesn't. Not legally. nt

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #85)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 10:17 AM

86. And that would kinda be the point of this entire thread - to change that. (nt)

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #86)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 11:06 AM

92. Fortunately, in my state that won't ever happen.

There aren't enough authoritarian types here who would think parents should or could ever have that much power.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #85)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 10:21 AM

97. Maybe not criminally, but maybe civilly...

 

if a plaintiff can prove their damages and negligence

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Response to srican69 (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 03:08 PM

42. owners are generally responsible for their DOGS' behavior.

it's not even a question of whether or not the parents are "at fault" in the sense of having done anything specifically wrong.
sure, if the parents taught their kid to bully (perhaps unintentionally, perhaps by example, whatever) then of course we would think to hold the parents responsible.

but the reality is that people should also be responsible for accidents and the actions of their pets and minor children even if no one did anything "wrong".

the american obsession with guilt often clouds judgment here.

you don't have to be a guilty party to be a responsible party.

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Response to unblock (Reply #42)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 03:11 PM

44. I love your argument ... are you a lawyer?

This is what I have been trying to get to ...rather inartfully.

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Response to srican69 (Reply #44)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 03:16 PM

45. lol! no, but i am multi-tasking, reviewing a contract on my other screen!

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Response to unblock (Reply #42)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 10:25 AM

87. You can keep a dog in your fenced yard all the time if it bites

But you can't really keep children locked up at home all the time.

I think parents need SOME level of responsibility, that they should be expected to be a part of the solution if there is a problem, but I don't think they should be legally liable for what their kids do, unless there is evidence that they were involved with the bullying (which happens.)

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Response to srican69 (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 03:19 PM

46. No..

 

They should generally not be punished unless they have clearly caused the bullying by mistreating their kids. The bullies themselves are the problem, not the parents.

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Response to randomtagger (Reply #46)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 03:23 PM

47. see #42

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Response to srican69 (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 03:40 PM

48. As the various replies here have shown, bullying

is a complicated problem.

I do think the schools don't do as good a job as they can to stop it.

My older son experienced bullying in elementary school. It took more the form of social isolation and ostracizing than anything else.

One evening I got a phone call from someone about a block away, asking me if someone with my son's name lived in the house. I said yes, and she said, "I have his jacket. It was tossed into my yard this afternoon as he was going home." Her house was between ours and the school only two blocks away.

We questioned our son, and found out who did the jacket tossing, and my husband called the family and said he wanted to go over and talk to them. He approached the issue by saying he was certain that their son was basically a good kid and that this was something quite aside from his usual behavior, and he knew the parents would want to know about this. They were apparently quite shocked that their kid (who had been picking on my son for a while now) was doing this, and assured my husband they would put a stop to this behavior. And as he was leaving the house, my husband turned to the kid, smiled and said something to the effect that there would be no retaliation for this visit.

That kid did not pick on my son again, although after that year we moved both of our kids to a private school.

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Response to SheilaT (Reply #48)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 06:33 PM

56. do you think a kid is less likely to be bullied in a private school?

or did you just want to change schools?

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Response to srican69 (Reply #56)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 01:54 PM

93. My son was no longer bullied in the private school.

There, being smart and good at school was valued and admired. Sports were downplayed compared to at the public school. The vastly higher ratio of teachers to students meant that the teachers could pay a lot more attention to student behavior and nip a lot of bullying behavior in the bud.

From my friend's son's experience in the public middle school, I am pretty sure my son would have been suicidal by the end of 7th grade. It would have destroyed him.

Because we did not know at the time that he was autistic, he has Asperger's Syndrome, we did not fully understand what was going on. The change was incredibly important to him.

The younger son, who is very socially adept said to me around the time he was in 7th grade, "I'd be in trouble all the time if I was still in the public school." That was amazingly insightful of him. He'd begun to hang out with the "wrong" kids and was willing to do a lot of relatively risky behavior. As it was, he was no paragon of virtue in high school. He got suspended once for showing up at a school event drunk. He got picked up on possession of marijuana the summer before his senior year, cheated his way through the drug tests, I'm fairly certain. Things at home got so bad that in the spring of that senior year he moved out and stayed for about six weeks with a friend. A couple of times a week I'd drive over to the school to make sure I saw his car in the parking lot. I was genuinely afraid he'd flunk out of high school right before graduation. Even though his grades did drop, he graduated, went off to college, graduated from college in four years cum laude.

We had a conversation about that whole thing a few years ago, and he told be that he basically wasn't the kind of kid to get totally lost. He also said that he was very glad he did what he did in high school because at college he saw too many classmates finally breaking free and screwing up with drink, drugs, not going to class. So he had the closer monitoring of the private school, and the greater support that a situation like that can provide. I hope our parenting also was good.

All this is why I so strongly support vastly better funding for the public schools. It is crucial that they also have the smaller class sizes and all the support that's needed for all the special needs students that they must take in.

Private schools are not exempt from bullying. Part of the whole bullying thing is that it should never be tolerated at any point. Most of the time the kind of bullying that is seen as perfectly okay in schools is not permitted in the adult world. But not always. There are too many situations in which bosses bully or co-workers bully. One of the nice things about getting older is that there's a lot of crap I just won't put up with.

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Response to srican69 (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 05:47 PM

50. IMO it would depend on if they have been informed that their child is a bully. If they did nothing

then yes.

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Response to srican69 (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 06:37 PM

57. I agree. Fine the parents then let the parents handle their little brats.

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Response to srican69 (Original post)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 06:41 PM

58. I haven't read the thread but your story breaks my heart.

 

Children can be some of the meanest people on earth.

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Response to former-republican (Reply #58)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 06:53 PM

59. I dont hold it against them ... kids will be kids ..that is why

you need parents..

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Response to srican69 (Reply #59)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 07:06 PM

61. "you need parents"

 


No disagreement there

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Response to srican69 (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 01:27 AM

66. Good idea. But,

what do you say to studies that have been done that found that all of us have been bullies at one time to someone.

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Response to srican69 (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 01:30 AM

67. Only if called out on their kid(s) unchanged behavior that cost someone.

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Response to srican69 (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 01:45 AM

70. Now that "bullying" is damn near anything that offends anyone, no.

My niece and some of her friends were accused of "bullying" because they were in the hallway and walked past a girl none of them like without acknowledging that she said "Hey" to them.

This girl's mother raises a stink every time her daughter is upset by the slightest thing, so the other kids have been instructed by their parents to ignore her.

The principal and the other puppet retracted the bullying accusation after dealing with the mother.

I almost can't believe how ridiculous this bullying issue has become. Of course, we've become a soft society when it comes to people whining about being offended by almost everything now.

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Response to srican69 (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 02:38 AM

71. Criminal bullying, like assaults and robberies

should be reported to the police as the crimes they are. A crime should be treated as such, it doesn't magically become something else less serious just because it happens to take place in a school or on a bus. If your kid has been the victim of a crime, call the cops first, file the report, and then go talk to the school personnel.

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Response to srican69 (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 05:57 AM

76. Instead of trying to figure out who to punish

for this type of behavior wouldn't we be better off trying to figure out why it really occurs and trying to fix it? What is with this incessant need to punish someone or anyone instead of determining the real cause of aberrant behavior? Is it the expense of doing so or is it that people really get off on seeing others punished?

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Response to srican69 (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 08:57 AM

80. No. nt

 

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Response to srican69 (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 10:46 AM

90. one of my mother's favorite proclomations is "That's not how i raised you to be!"

 

and I have to correct her and say- 'That may not be how you intended to raise me to be- but however I turned out is exactly how you raised me to be'.

she doesn't like it when i point that out.

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Response to Mel Content (Reply #90)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 10:47 AM

91. ouch!!!!

Nt

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Response to Mel Content (Reply #90)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 09:49 AM

94. Well, that's kinda horseshit if you ask me.

Your mother can't assume 100% responsibility for any shortcomings you have.

My father, who passed away 2 years ago, was an absolutely wonderful person. My mom still is. If I fall short of them in any respect, I consider it my fault.

She's not going to be around forever. Give her a break. Or better yet, get your shit together so that it doesn't have to be one of her favorite proclamations.

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Response to GaYellowDawg (Reply #94)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:47 AM

102. i didn't ask.

 

and you make incorrect assumptions.

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Response to srican69 (Original post)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 01:52 PM

101. Yes

If the kids can't - or won't - understand, then absolutely go after the parents. This kind of behavior is normally learned at home. You got to get at them some way in order to make the bullying end. There is no excuse for this at all.

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Response to srican69 (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:50 AM

103. Most bullies are bullied themselves

I agree with your concept. They should also be made public spectacles. There are laws in place to protect your niece now. Letting the bullying continue can lead to horrifying consequences later.

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