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Fri Dec 7, 2012, 02:45 PM

 

Fellow Pacifists, Peace Seekers and Non-Violence Types check in here!

80 replies, 5492 views

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Reply Fellow Pacifists, Peace Seekers and Non-Violence Types check in here! (Original post)
Taverner Dec 2012 OP
teddy51 Dec 2012 #1
Taverner Dec 2012 #2
lapislzi Dec 2012 #6
Taverner Dec 2012 #8
UndahCovah Dec 2012 #65
LeftInTX Dec 2012 #3
Taverner Dec 2012 #7
RKP5637 Dec 2012 #54
99Forever Dec 2012 #4
quinnox Dec 2012 #5
RKP5637 Dec 2012 #51
libdem4life Dec 2012 #9
Taverner Dec 2012 #10
toby jo Dec 2012 #13
libdem4life Dec 2012 #33
RKP5637 Dec 2012 #53
Daniel537 Dec 2012 #60
PufPuf23 Dec 2012 #11
Victor_c3 Dec 2012 #12
toby jo Dec 2012 #15
lunatica Dec 2012 #17
Victor_c3 Dec 2012 #36
RobertEarl Dec 2012 #38
lunatica Dec 2012 #44
navarth Dec 2012 #68
NightWatcher Dec 2012 #14
toby jo Dec 2012 #16
lunatica Dec 2012 #18
adieu Dec 2012 #19
antiquie Dec 2012 #20
AndyTiedye Dec 2012 #21
Taverner Dec 2012 #22
arthritisR_US Dec 2012 #23
bunnies Dec 2012 #24
ThomThom Dec 2012 #25
Taverner Dec 2012 #26
cpwm17 Dec 2012 #48
ThomThom Dec 2012 #80
abelenkpe Dec 2012 #27
Union Scribe Dec 2012 #28
Taverner Dec 2012 #37
Dark n Stormy Knight Dec 2012 #29
FiggyJay Dec 2012 #30
lunatica Dec 2012 #46
RKP5637 Dec 2012 #56
FarCenter Dec 2012 #31
RKP5637 Dec 2012 #57
Zorra Dec 2012 #62
FarCenter Dec 2012 #63
Zorra Dec 2012 #77
LiberalLoner Dec 2012 #32
RobertEarl Dec 2012 #39
Taverner Dec 2012 #41
navarth Dec 2012 #69
frazzled Dec 2012 #34
OneTenthofOnePercent Dec 2012 #35
Gregorian Dec 2012 #40
Octafish Dec 2012 #42
Agony Dec 2012 #43
RKP5637 Dec 2012 #59
Agony Dec 2012 #75
lunatica Dec 2012 #45
quaker bill Dec 2012 #47
Earth_First Dec 2012 #49
cpwm17 Dec 2012 #50
druidity33 Dec 2012 #52
Whovian Dec 2012 #55
RKP5637 Dec 2012 #58
Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2012 #61
xiamiam Dec 2012 #64
RoccoR5955 Dec 2012 #66
Tikki Dec 2012 #67
navarth Dec 2012 #70
Tierra_y_Libertad Dec 2012 #71
go west young man Dec 2012 #72
WillyT Dec 2012 #73
oxymoron Dec 2012 #74
NoOneMan Dec 2012 #76
patrice Dec 2012 #78
MineralMan Dec 2012 #79

Response to Taverner (Original post)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 02:52 PM

1. I'm on that side of the fence! I think getting involved in Syria would be a fatal

 

error. The next step will be taking on Iran, and that would suck big time.

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Response to teddy51 (Reply #1)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 02:54 PM

2. It would - we haven't even paid for the last war

 

Iraq all over again

And it amazes me how many DUers love themselves some war (as long as the President has a D next to his name)

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Response to Taverner (Reply #2)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 03:41 PM

6. Iran would be much, much worse than Iraq

Lots more Iranians. Lots of Iranians that have hated us for decades. Lots of Iranians that still have a viable infrastructure and an economy not decimated by decades of conflict and sanctions. Lots of Iranians who have the benign oversight of the Chinese military machine at their back.

Anybody who thinks that poking Iran is anything but the uttermost folly is himself a fool.

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Response to lapislzi (Reply #6)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 03:46 PM

8. I was thinking Syria would be Iraq the sequel

 

Fuckall, Iran would be fatal folly

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Response to teddy51 (Reply #1)

Sat Dec 8, 2012, 12:01 PM

65. I agree

 

I'm not a pacifist by any stretch of the imagination, but it would stupid to get involved in ANOTHER war. We are not the world-police, we need to let other countries have the right of self-determination without interference. And our soldiers don't deserve to be sent to another hellhole where we aren't wanted anyway.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 03:30 PM

3. I wish the media would not give McCain the mike 24/7

He's ONE senator and he is dominating the story. Only the warhawks are coming out and speaking.

It's almost like second coming of Dubya.

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Response to LeftInTX (Reply #3)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 03:45 PM

7. They have donors to please!

 

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Response to LeftInTX (Reply #3)

Sat Dec 8, 2012, 08:22 AM

54. MSM is only interested in $$$$$. MSM does not give a F about the future of the world, except

licking their chops about how much $$$$$ they could make off of some more war. MSM is a diabolical force that feeds off of death and destruction all the way to the crooked banks and financial institutions.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 03:34 PM

4. No more wars of choice.

Ever. Let them do their own policing.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 03:36 PM

5. we as a nation have lost all moral authority anyway

 

The Iraq invasion we did bankrupted any claim we had to world policeman or moral guide or authority.

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Response to quinnox (Reply #5)

Sat Dec 8, 2012, 08:16 AM

51. Exactly! n/t

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 03:48 PM

9. 800+ foreign military bases is not friendship. Billions in "foreign aid"/aka as payoffs is not

charity. The correct term is Empire...the march for which no current day partisan/president/leader can remove us from. Whether it is the Revelations Armageddon biblical version, the Mayan Calendar, the Hindu Kali Yuga, Climate Change, Atlantis reappearing ... methinks it is not in our control...regardless of our intent.

Peace. One way or the other.

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Response to libdem4life (Reply #9)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 03:50 PM

10. Yep. And not the "Benign Empire" either

 

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Response to libdem4life (Reply #9)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 04:15 PM

13. We have this great moment in history to teach

as compared to the middle aged and dark aged empire-seekers we are an enlightened and educated people, and we cave into the greed of it all anyhow.

Obama is on record saying he would have voted against Iraq. Now we'll see.

"No, Mr. McCain. No war for you today."

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Response to toby jo (Reply #13)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 05:36 PM

33. Hopefully it' not just in our dreams. We, the people, are mightily divided.

Many of those "divided" seem not to have evolved much past those middle and dark centuries and are still in lock step with juvenile but deadly playground politics.

I like "No war for you today." and would add..."Now learn to use your words."

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Response to libdem4life (Reply #33)

Sat Dec 8, 2012, 08:18 AM

53. Often the US functions as a bunch of children quarreling on the playground, except with

lethal weapons.

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Response to libdem4life (Reply #9)

Sat Dec 8, 2012, 08:49 AM

60. +1

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 03:51 PM

11. Check in.

I recommend a stand aside policy for Syria.

We would only make the situation worse and have likely contributed to what is happening now.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 04:12 PM

12. I'm with you guys too

I've been in the throws of developing my anti-war stance and a lot of my beliefs are very muddled right now. I suppose, in theory, there could be a situation that justifies the projection of our military power. However, the more I think about it, the fewer and fewer examples I can think of.

Sadam's use of chemical weapons on his own people was one of the justifications bush used in his arguments for a war with Iraq in 2003. Was chemical weapons worth roughly 5,000 dead US Soldiers, an estimated 100,000-1,000,000 dead Iraqi civilians, and roughly $1 trillion wasted?

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Response to Victor_c3 (Reply #12)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 04:19 PM

15. On top of that, we sold him those chemical weapons.

We've got way too many weapons and men on hand for the escalatory nature of war.

Let it go, Obama.

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Response to Victor_c3 (Reply #12)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 04:26 PM

17. Thank you for not forgetting the dead Iraqi civilians!

That's the worst part about war.

I'm definitely anti-war.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #17)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 06:22 PM

36. Agreed, the civilian deaths are the worst part

I volunteered to join the Army in 1997 and I sought to become an officer and an Infantryman in 2002. Even though I didn't know what I was signing up for (and I never agree with Iraq), I ended up in Iraq on my own volition. The Iraqi civilians had the war thrown on them without any say in the matter.

I'm probably a piece of shit for saying this, but I don't feel nearly as sorry for the military loss as I do for what we did to the Iraqi civilians. I was an Infantry Platoon Leader in Iraq and I had the misfortune of losing 5 Soldiers that served under me. The war was very close and personal to me. I am much more troubled by the images of dead and dying civilians than I am by the images of my dead Soldiers.

A lot of people will probably flame me for this, but American lives aren't worth anymore than Iraqi lives. Iraqi children are just as important to their parents as our children are to us. The only difference, as I mentioned above, is that our dead children in Iraq volunteered on some level to go over there. The Iraqi children didn't.

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Response to Victor_c3 (Reply #36)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 07:07 PM

38. Thank you

No flames here. Just a thanks for your courage.

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Response to RobertEarl (Reply #38)

Sat Dec 8, 2012, 07:44 AM

44. Self delete

I meant to answer the OP.

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Response to Victor_c3 (Reply #36)

Sat Dec 8, 2012, 12:27 PM

68. Well spoken, sir

I doubt anybody's gonna flame you for being honest and fair.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 04:16 PM

14. what the Hell are you hippies talking about now?

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Response to NightWatcher (Reply #14)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 04:21 PM

16. Living through tomorrow without dismembering any of us

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Response to NightWatcher (Reply #14)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 04:26 PM

18. Whirled peas!

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 04:27 PM

19. Checking in. n/t

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 04:31 PM

20. Dismember drones

and what Ms. Luna Tica said.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 04:52 PM

21. What if they Gave a War and Nobody Came?

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Response to AndyTiedye (Reply #21)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 04:55 PM

22. Then they'd kill and/or imprison the soldiers families

 

But the REAL atrocity here is that a South Korean rapper insulted the military!!!

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 04:56 PM

23. You call?

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 04:59 PM

24. here!

With that song still in my head.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 05:01 PM

25. violence and war are not good solutions to any situation

sanctions and other financial pressure should bring most situations to an end
you don't have to destroy a country to remove the dictator

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Response to ThomThom (Reply #25)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 05:01 PM

26. I would go as far as to say we are in no position to remove or install leaders in other countries

 

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Response to ThomThom (Reply #25)

Sat Dec 8, 2012, 08:05 AM

48. Our sanctions on Iraq were tragic for the Iraqis

Last edited Sat Dec 8, 2012, 03:05 PM - Edit history (1)



and sanctions can lead to war. That same game is being played against Iran – with no provocation.

Sanctions on South Africa did help end their Apartheid government. The motivations were different.

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Response to cpwm17 (Reply #48)

Sun Dec 9, 2012, 05:01 PM

80. that is true, sanctions on Iraq where tough on the people but so was

completely destroying their country with depleted uranium bombs. The sanctions were working in Iraq. I think Iran is beginning to feel the pressure. They need to show the world everything they are doing.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 05:06 PM

27. peace!

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 05:09 PM

28. You vigorously defend a rap about murdering soldiers' families

and an hour later have the audacity to claim you're about peace and non-violence? I guess you just needed some recs eh?

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Response to Union Scribe (Reply #28)


Response to Taverner (Original post)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 05:15 PM

29. I was participating in a Quaker peace protest by the side of the road a couple of years ago when a

rich bully in an expensive sports car pulled over to yell at us.

Our signs said, "War is not the answer."

He said, "If it weren't for war, we would all be speaking German." (Original :sarcasm

The Quakers engaged with him and tried to reason, but he was such a jerk it was hard not to want to punch him in the face. My husband finally joined in and said something like, 'Yeah. Thanks for stopping. I think it's time you move along now."

So, yeah, I'm kind of a pacifist. But, I have impure thoughts.

I support our involvement in WWII, but that's a complicated one. There's a few newish books out there that could change my mind. IIRC, the premise is that Churchill caused that war, also about how the injustices of WWI caused it. Not sounding to me now very likely to change my mind, so there must have been more to it. Will have to check my "to read" list.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 05:20 PM

30. Wow!

I never thought that it would be this easy to hang out with the really cool people

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Response to FiggyJay (Reply #30)

Sat Dec 8, 2012, 07:52 AM

46. Welcome to DU!

Lots of the time when DU members talk to each other it's like this ------->

But it gets balanced out because when it really counts we're like this ------>

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Response to lunatica (Reply #46)

Sat Dec 8, 2012, 08:28 AM

56. +++ 1,000 +++ n/t

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 05:21 PM

31. Change "Department of Defense" back to "Department of War" -- truth in advertizing at least.

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Response to FarCenter (Reply #31)

Sat Dec 8, 2012, 08:31 AM

57. Yep!!! n/t

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Response to FarCenter (Reply #31)

Sat Dec 8, 2012, 10:55 AM

62. Better yet, let's take Rep. Kucinich up on the Department of Peace idea. nt

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Response to Zorra (Reply #62)

Sat Dec 8, 2012, 11:15 AM

63. Sounds Orwellian, and its interventionist program would eventually become coercive

Besides, many of the components are already the responsibility of other parts of government.

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Response to FarCenter (Reply #63)

Sat Dec 8, 2012, 01:39 PM

77. "Sounds Orwellian"? Nah...not really a great reason to discount a good idea.

And neither is "many of the components are already the responsibility of other parts of government."

And your other argument is only your unsupported opinion.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 05:23 PM

32. I hope there won't be another war. Our military is exhausted and stressed already.

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Response to LiberalLoner (Reply #32)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 07:10 PM

39. Our military should all go on R&R

Then reduced in size to a point that it no longer is large enough to do anything but guard our borders. The rest of the men and women can all become Peace Corps people.

Just hoping that there is not another war just doesn't cut it. We must make sure we never GO to war again.

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Response to RobertEarl (Reply #39)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 09:55 PM

41. And when they come back, 6-10months from now...

 

They should come home and fix our internal problems

As in highways, bridges, ducts, etc...

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Response to Taverner (Reply #41)

Sat Dec 8, 2012, 12:31 PM

69. I'm liking the way you think nt

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 05:37 PM

34. I hope nonviolence includes

reducing the violence in our own country. Because I live in a city that's been plagued by a lot of violence for some time, especially gun crimes—more this year than the number of troops killed in Afghanistan.

We live in a culture of violence, from television and video games to movies. And of course, in real life. Right here. Maybe it affects our violent attitudes in the rest of the world.

There are more than 129,817 federally licensed firearms dealers in the United States, according to the latest Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives numbers (as of Aug. 1) . Of those, 51,438 are retail gun stores, 7,356 are pawn shops and 61,562 are collectors, with the balance of the licenses belonging mostly to manufacturers and importers of firearms and destructive devices.
For comparison, here are some numbers of other ubiquitous elements of American life:

Gas Stations in the U.S. (2011): 143,839 (source TD LINX/Nielsen via National Associations of Convenience Stores, Association for Convenience for Convenience and Fuel Retailing)
Grocery Stores in the U.S. (2011) 36,569 (source: Food Marketing Institute)
McDonald’s restaurants in the U.S. (2011): 14,098 (Source: McDonald’s Corporation Annual Report 2011)

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/08/guns-in-america-a-statistical-look/


I don't think we can talk about antiwar, peace, and nonviolence without addressing (and standing on the right side) of the violence issues here at home.

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Response to frazzled (Reply #34)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 05:44 PM

35. Most estimates put the total number of guns right around the number of US citizens.

 

Now if you only look at citizens of legal age without ownership disqualification... there are easily more guns than people allowed to legally to have them. That's more than one gun per qualified individual. I know I'm trying to do my part on this front.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 09:17 PM

40. It can be done. It just takes self-control.

edit- Oh yeah, and something about child abuse too.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 10:10 PM

42. Like this thread very very very very much.



And I heart Taverner.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Sat Dec 8, 2012, 12:35 AM

43. F**K militarism. Wage Peace.

Occupy

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Response to Agony (Reply #43)

Sat Dec 8, 2012, 08:45 AM

59. Speaking of militarism. They had some event here recently and all of the local community police

forces turned out with their weaponry in a parade of sorts. I happened to drive by the other way. It looked like an invasion force had landed, with huge trucks/vans akin to tanks rolling down the street. I really really think the typical American has no idea of how militarized this country has become to keep the citizenry policed to the whims of "The System."

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Response to RKP5637 (Reply #59)

Sat Dec 8, 2012, 01:31 PM

75. This is why non-violent resistance/activism/training is primary

AKA Peace with a vengeance.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Sat Dec 8, 2012, 07:45 AM

45. Peacemonger!

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Sat Dec 8, 2012, 07:58 AM

47. Count me in

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Sat Dec 8, 2012, 08:07 AM

49. I'm more of a whirled peas kinda guy...

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Sat Dec 8, 2012, 08:09 AM

50. War is the world's worst crime

We're brainwashed to think that war is an acceptable way to do business.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Sat Dec 8, 2012, 08:17 AM

52. K&R Here! nt.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Sat Dec 8, 2012, 08:26 AM

55. Here!

 

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Sat Dec 8, 2012, 08:38 AM

58. Most never experience the horrors of war directly. Many sit in their armchair watching

the reality "War Show" on their TV, and wave the flag like cheering for a sports team. War is stupid and ignorant, and is symptomatic of how backward humanity really is ... And now we do war by remote control. And the new home viewer TV show "War Games." >>> Hey honey, let's do the 'interactive war game' on TV, where's the remote, here, let me try and hit a few,.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Sat Dec 8, 2012, 10:49 AM

61. checking In

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Sat Dec 8, 2012, 11:58 AM

64. Anti war, anti waste, anti war machine and profiteers

Waseful and despicable. Trillions spent on war ..on creating new enemies. Unimaginable destruction to lives and familes. We have become so much less than I ever imagined at this time in our history and ALL for profit. Don't kid yourselves, no intervention is about helping the people. Our number one industry is war..which I oppose. That says it all. Disgusting.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Sat Dec 8, 2012, 12:16 PM

66. The Dalai Lama declared that war is obsolete,

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Sat Dec 8, 2012, 12:17 PM

67. This would be me...

and an amazing part of spreading the word of Peace is to teach reverence for the land,
the piece of Earth a person occupies.



Tikki

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Sat Dec 8, 2012, 12:33 PM

70. Present

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Sat Dec 8, 2012, 12:36 PM

71. "Violence us the first resort of the incompetent." Isaac Asimov

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Sat Dec 8, 2012, 12:38 PM

72. The bravest concept....

Love is the answer.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Sat Dec 8, 2012, 01:19 PM

73. K & R !!!


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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Sat Dec 8, 2012, 01:29 PM

74. Here in Peace. Namaste _/l\_

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Sat Dec 8, 2012, 01:38 PM

76. World peace doesn't preclude world destruction

 

The older I get, the more irrelevant it becomes to the state of the world. We could all peacefully procreate and purchase our way into oblivion in a +10C degree world.

To me, wars make us look stupid and helpless to our stupidity, just as much as producing and buying junk. Ambivalence is the last remaining guard against insanity.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Sat Dec 8, 2012, 01:42 PM

78. No hocus pocus, magical sky-daddy stuff about it: Love IS the answer & love is

rooted in freedom just as surely as hate is rooted in slavery.

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Response to Taverner (Original post)

Sat Dec 8, 2012, 01:51 PM

79. I'm opposed to any US military ventures in the Middle East.

We have done very poorly in that part of the world, and I see no sign that we understand that region at all. None of our past military efforts there have accomplished anything that is positive, and our presence only delays the solving of problems in that region by the people who inhabit it. In saying that, I recognize that conditions may deteriorate dramatically and violently in that region, which has been a warlike region for a very, very long time.

Further, it is my hope that this country will close almost all of its military bases outside of the United States, leaving only those needed for the defense of nations incapable of defending themselves. I have believed that for many years. We can simply leave, taking with us only that which can transport itself and our personnel back the the US and any devices capable of mass destruction. The rest we can simply leave in place for the use of those in the nation where it is left. The costs for that materiel are sunk costs, and none of it is needed in the US.

Then, we should reduce the size of the military until it is only capable of defending our own nation and citizens, wherever they may be. The savings from this reduction can be used for much-needed infrastructure and peaceable projects, with current military personnel being offered jobs in those areas.

As for our foreign policy, I believe it should consist of aiding nations that are moving toward peaceful, democratic governments, with no funding whatsoever for nations that are not doing that. We should not trade with nations that are not promoting peace within and without their borders, but only with nations that are working toward peaceful goals and governance by their citizens.

Am I a total pacifist? I am not. I am a person who believes in a military with a mission that is 100% defensive, but capable of providing that defensive force if required.

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