HomeLatest ThreadsGreatest ThreadsForums & GroupsMy SubscriptionsMy Posts
DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Main » General Discussion (Forum) » NSA Whistleblower: Everyo...
Introducing Discussionist: A new forum by the creators of DU

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 12:59 AM

 

NSA Whistleblower: Everyone in US under virtual surveillance, all info stored, no matter the post

&feature=colike

56 replies, 4929 views

Reply to this thread

Back to top Alert abuse

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 56 replies Author Time Post
Reply NSA Whistleblower: Everyone in US under virtual surveillance, all info stored, no matter the post (Original post)
Whovian Dec 2012 OP
6spokewheels Dec 2012 #1
OnyxCollie Dec 2012 #2
villager Dec 2012 #4
kelliekat44 Dec 2012 #38
gateley Dec 2012 #3
Fedaykin Dec 2012 #20
OldDem2012 Dec 2012 #5
rDigital Dec 2012 #6
Overseas Dec 2012 #8
rDigital Dec 2012 #9
JDPriestly Dec 2012 #10
rDigital Dec 2012 #13
Ya Basta Dec 2012 #35
reorg Dec 2012 #11
rDigital Dec 2012 #12
Overseas Dec 2012 #56
HiPointDem Dec 2012 #43
Overseas Dec 2012 #7
Fumesucker Dec 2012 #14
AndyTiedye Dec 2012 #15
Kurovski Dec 2012 #17
freshwest Dec 2012 #16
pacalo Dec 2012 #18
freshwest Dec 2012 #41
Nay Dec 2012 #28
freshwest Dec 2012 #42
Nay Dec 2012 #45
freshwest Dec 2012 #52
triplepoint Dec 2012 #19
rhett o rick Dec 2012 #25
triplepoint Dec 2012 #39
Kablooie Dec 2012 #21
Nay Dec 2012 #29
enough Dec 2012 #22
rhett o rick Dec 2012 #23
HiPointDem Dec 2012 #50
JPZenger Dec 2012 #24
Buns_of_Fire Dec 2012 #26
woo me with science Dec 2012 #27
lastlib Dec 2012 #30
woo me with science Dec 2012 #31
Hydra Dec 2012 #32
woo me with science Dec 2012 #34
woo me with science Dec 2012 #33
Tikki Dec 2012 #36
MineralMan Dec 2012 #37
rhett o rick Dec 2012 #40
Nay Dec 2012 #46
rhett o rick Dec 2012 #47
Nay Dec 2012 #49
sendero Dec 2012 #44
Liberal In Texas Dec 2012 #48
Zorra Dec 2012 #51
limpyhobbler Dec 2012 #53
woo me with science Dec 2012 #54
woo me with science Dec 2012 #55

Response to Whovian (Original post)


Response to Whovian (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 01:07 AM

2. Finally, bipartisanship. nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to OnyxCollie (Reply #2)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 01:19 AM

4. Change you can believe in.

n/t

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to OnyxCollie (Reply #2)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 02:33 PM

38. OK. Before everyone explodes, what it "virtual surveillance?" nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Whovian (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 01:11 AM

3. I kind of assumed that to be the case. It says a lot about how much

we've been "boiled" that I'm not shocked by this.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to gateley (Reply #3)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 03:39 AM

20. I agree and..

 

glad to know my opinions will be still around long after I'm gone because it'll take thousands of years before they are able to sift through the quadrillion bits of information before they are able to ascribe the typed words I send out to whatever personal profile file they may have for me... I think I'm more concerned about an asteroid strike...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Whovian (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 01:31 AM

5. I worked on a US Navy project in 1982 as a defense contractor (a long time ago!!)....

....involving a van packed with phone surveillance/eavesdropping equipment. We were told it was to be used to monitor and record domestic and foreign phone calls made by and to US Navy personnel. That was thirty years ago. I think we all know how much technology has advanced since that time.

The Patriot Act basically gave the US Government the right to keep tabs on all communications to and from the US. By default, that also allows them to monitor and record all domestic communications. Even though the Government may not keep records of all communications, they know corporations involved in providing communications (including the Internet) keep records of everything and can be compelled to turn them over if needed.

By the way, it's all about key-word scanning these days. Conversations/communications get recorded or flagged when they contain certain words or phrases.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Whovian (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 01:36 AM

6. Russia Today clearly isn't a propaganda station like Faux News. : |

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rDigital (Reply #6)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 01:41 AM

8. They have a much broader range of perspectives.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Overseas (Reply #8)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 01:44 AM

9. Like the Russian Government's perspective. nt

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rDigital (Reply #9)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 02:24 AM

10. With RTV, it depends on the program. Sometimes the Russian "point of view" is really obvious

and obnoxious. But they have some shows that are pretty good. You have to watch or listen with discernment.

On the other hand, my impression of Fox News is that they are manipulative and spewing propaganda and nonsense pretty much all the time. That is, I have the impression that Fox News just doesn't have much good programming at all. RT has Thom Hartmann. He is intelligent and certainly does not have a Russian point of view.

I think RT is far better than Fox News, but you really have to discern.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JDPriestly (Reply #10)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 02:36 AM

13. I like Thom. I wish the locals would hire him. RT, just rubs me the wrong way.

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JDPriestly (Reply #10)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 02:18 PM

35. Some people just don't like being shown their own dirty laundry

 

That pretty much is what RT does and not just to us. IMO that is what the news should focus on more as opposed to wall to wall coverage of a runaway bride for example.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rDigital (Reply #6)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 02:30 AM

11. You can read about it in more detail in The Guardian or the NYT

US data whistleblower: 'It's a violation of everybody's constitutional rights'

Former National Security Agency official Bill Binney says US is illegally collecting huge amounts of data on his fellow citizens

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2012/sep/15/data-whistleblower-constitutional-rights


Two members of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, Senators Ron Wyden of Oregon and Mark Udall of Colorado, both Democrats, are trying to revise the amendments to insure greater privacy protections. They have been warning about “secret interpretations” of laws and backdoor “loopholes” that allow the government to collect our private communications. Thirteen senators have signed a letter expressing concern about a “loophole” in the law that permits the collection of United States data. The A.C.L.U. and other groups have also challenged the constitutionality of the law, and the Supreme Court will hear arguments in that case on Oct. 29.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/23/opinion/the-national-security-agencys-domestic-spying-program.html


For more than two years, a handful of Democrats on the Senate intelligence committee have warned that the government is secretly interpreting its surveillance powers under the Patriot Act in a way that would be alarming if the public — or even others in Congress — knew about it.

On Thursday, two of those senators — Ron Wyden of Oregon and Mark Udall of Colorado — went further. They said a top-secret intelligence operation that is based on that secret legal theory is not as crucial to national security as executive branch officials have maintained.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/16/us/politics/democratic-senators-warn-about-use-of-patriot-act.html?_r=0

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to reorg (Reply #11)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 02:35 AM

12. I appreciate the links and your candor. RT, just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. nt

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rDigital (Reply #12)

Mon Dec 10, 2012, 01:15 AM

56. Americans wish our news wasn't as biased as it is. Want to think we're back in the old days

when Russia was all about Pravda propaganda and the US had more honest, daring investigative reporting.

But our TV news has changed a lot since the elimination of the fairness doctrine in the 80's and the media consolidation of the 90's.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rDigital (Reply #6)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 03:31 PM

43. is the information in the OP true or false? did the person quoted say it, or not?

 

if it's true it's not surprising it wouldn't get a lot of play in US media and would get more in russian media.

all us media = propaganda, no different from russian media.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Whovian (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 01:40 AM

7. K&R.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Whovian (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 02:38 AM

14. Just wait until the Democrats retake the House

They'll put a stop to this crap.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Fumesucker (Reply #14)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 02:50 AM

15. Should Happen in a Decade or Three

Just wait until the Democrats retake the House

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to AndyTiedye (Reply #15)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 03:13 AM

17. Then of course, they will have to "keep their powder dry".

You know.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Whovian (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 03:12 AM

16. What is technically possible will be done, has been done since the 1950's.

Last edited Thu Dec 6, 2012, 03:31 PM - Edit history (1)

We live more in a technocracy than anything else. And millions of Americans make good money creating and maintaining the infrastructure for this, and think they're very clever. Not going to talk them out of it.

IMO, it's not about patriotism, doing good or evil, it's a paycheck. Mankind, not only Americans, love all of the ways that we use technology. It's hyped to us and we love it. What I think of this is irrelevant, we have voted for this by purchasing these things.

The problem is not just a weirdo at the NSA collecting data. It's all the data mining social networks, those for corpoations, the traceable gadgets we use, and our addiction to corporate entertainment.

I was reading a while back how Comcast kept record of what you watched on TV. Not only that, a motion sensor to see if anyone is in the room with the TV, to pull up a program list they think they want for them.

I worked in communications and know the conveniences we love are not private by virtue of the technology. People love wireless, it is not possible without encryption to keep that secure. People love putting their story up on youtube and elsewhere. Yeah, and the government didn't need to put a boot on anyone's throat for it, either.

So we built this. Yup, we did it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to freshwest (Reply #16)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 03:27 AM

18. I remember my dad advising me never to say anything on the phone at work

that I didn't mind the whole world knowing.

"What is technically possible will be done & has been done since the 1950's." I think so, too.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to pacalo (Reply #18)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 03:13 PM

41. I wonder if the number of times I've said the F-word will come back to haunt me. I expect some form

of karmic retribution later than a spanking from Big Brother while still in this body.

I wonder if I'll get brownie points from Agent Mike for saying stuff like: 'Embrace the Horde! Serve the State.'

Since I believe in, Government of, by and for WethePeople!©

And yes, the internet is like the old party line telephone.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to freshwest (Reply #16)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 10:42 AM

28. Thank you, freshwest, for reinforcing a point I have made for many years -- if the technology

exists, the deed will be done. Once computers got up to speed as far as data storage/collection, that was the end of any 'privacy' we assumed we had. It is an inevitable result of the technology. In the past, I had no luck convincing any of the technophiles (including Mr Nay, an IT guy) that there was NO POSSIBILITY of privacy once the computer and all the gadgets it spawned infiltrated the society. It was all too fun, and as you pointed out, too profitable for anyone to put roadblocks in the way. Mr Nay still thinks he can tech his way into privacy, but it's a fool's errand.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Nay (Reply #28)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 03:28 PM

42. Agreed. There was a Glenn Beck fan who was threatening to kill Democrats for voting for the ACA.

He left a ton of filthy-mouthed, voice mails to them and their staff, threatening them, their families, etc. Finally he got arrested after an investigation showed he had means. He thought that blocking his Caller ID meant he really was anonymous. It is to laugh! All calls are recorded as far as the numbers involved and stored, to be retrieved within a short time span before they are deleted. They are kept is for billing purposes, not because a drooling corporate or government employee gets off on it. Could it be misused - of course it could. But we volunteered for that and a lot more.

We AGREE to this when we sign up for a service, and we freely GIVE our most important information. One IP or phone search easily connects to a computer's OS and active programs being run, street address, name and thus to billing. From there the social security number, credit files and all of that are available.

I don't get upset about these reports because they are the tip of the iceberg. And the cams on the computers? And when does the computer go offline? And even the ability to listen to the sound inside a room, via the the input mike on the phone or computer? Don't get me started, LOL!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to freshwest (Reply #42)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 04:06 PM

45. Tip of the iceberg, indeed. If most people knew how much of their stuff was out there, they'd puke

in their own shoes. IIRC, govts find it easy to get your info, not by giving YOU a warrant, but by giving a blanket warrant to those services (phone, computer, retail) and going in and snatching what they want on whatever specific person(s) they are interested in.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Nay (Reply #45)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 04:44 PM

52. I see it more likely that they are being offered the information for a contract. Especially when

Last edited Thu Dec 6, 2012, 05:22 PM - Edit history (1)

Americans think they're getting something for nothing. All of those freebies are free because they're vehicles for getting advertising money, but also, data on us.

As some person said a while back about Facebook, it's not the service they're selling, primarily. The real product they're selling is YOU. And we volunteered.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Whovian (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 03:37 AM

19. Bugging the Buggers-Here's a way to Trigger Echelon

 

Last edited Fri Dec 7, 2012, 03:57 PM - Edit history (4)

Echelon Keyword Generator:

http://www.bugbrother.com/echelon/spookwordsgenerator.html


Sample:

From: Michael_Miron@ita.doc.gov
To: info@opic.gov
Subj: COBEOWEHHO (CLASSIFIED - Russia)

George J. Tenet, Director of Central Intelligence (CIA), told North Korea Reconnaissance Bureau about Mayotte (Indian Ocean) frenchelon station : a cryptoanarchist sent EloAufkl (german Elektronische Aufklärung)`s web based CGI proxys & Anonymizers logs to Basque Fatherland and Liberty (ETA) a.k.a. Euzkadi Ta Askatasuna !

Ask 634th Military Intelligence`s contact of Vivendi Universal pollution Dpt via http://www.odci.gov/ic/ for Ref. Waihopai, INFOSEC, ASPIC, MI6, Information Security, SAI, Information Warfare.



---Post it all over the Net. Permanently monkey wrench Echelon altogether. It's the patriotic thing to do.
.
.
.

.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to triplepoint (Reply #19)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 09:23 AM

25. I hope you have your affairs in order. No pun intended. nm

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rhett o rick (Reply #25)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 02:35 PM

39. You Betcha!

 

Last edited Fri Dec 7, 2012, 03:58 PM - Edit history (1)

From: W2KGuides@nsa.gov
To: christensenr@foia.belvoir.army.mil
Subj: TSILKOM SEKRETNE (TOP SECRET - Ukraine)

Dennis Richardson, Director-General of Security, Australian Security Intelligence Organization (ASIO), told Korean Central Intelligence Agency (KCIA) about Agde (Hérault) frenchelon station : a bomb maker sent SAVAK (Iran Sazman-i Amniyat Va Ittila'at-i Kishvar)`s anarchists and terrorists nym servers logs to al-Qaida (Usama Bin Ladin) !

Ask 634th Military Intelligence`s contact of Clearstream corruption Dpt via http://www.nacic.gov/ for Ref. TELINTNRO, GRU, SRIDRM, DST, SDF, CANUSEYESONLY, CANUKUS, AUSCANUKUS, C4I, C3I.
.
.
.

.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Whovian (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 03:45 AM

21. My god! If anyone learns what I've been posting here on DU I'll go to prison for life!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Kablooie (Reply #21)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 10:44 AM

29. See ya in the clink, kablooie....

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Whovian (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 09:09 AM

22. k&r (nt)

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Whovian (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 09:21 AM

23. Does anyone really think that "intellegence" didnt know about Gen Patraeus' affair

all the time?

In Washington the DC, things are never as they seem.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rhett o rick (Reply #23)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 04:34 PM

50. +1

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Whovian (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 09:23 AM

24. Write an email using the words C4 and New York in Farsi, and then watch the vans circle your house

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Whovian (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 09:24 AM

26. Fear not, citizens! Boring Man to the rescue!

Any NSA employee who even glances at my file will fall asleep from sheer boredom. So will it be with their replacement. And their replacement. And so on, until the entire section of the NSA charged with monitoring US citizens is in a deep, boredom-induced coma. At this point the entire section will be disbanded. Mission accomplished.

Boring Man triumphs again!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Whovian (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 10:31 AM

27. Thank goodness we have a Democratic Constitutional scholar in the White House!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Whovian (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 11:13 AM

30. '1984' was supposed to be a WARNING--not a MISSION STATEMENT!!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Whovian (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 12:23 PM

31. Kick. Ignoring it does not make it go away.

The fact that we have a Democratic President does not make it conscionable.

Our President is allowing this. Our DEMOCRATIC President is allowing this.

Our DEMOCRATIC, CONSTITUTIONAL SCHOLAR President is allowing this.

We have a problem.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to woo me with science (Reply #31)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 01:08 PM

32. Yes, we do!

It seems the labels don't mean what we think they do. "Safe" seems to mean "Poison"

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Hydra (Reply #32)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 02:12 PM

34. +10000 We are played like fools.

Enough is enough.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Whovian (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 02:10 PM

33. Kick. Ignoring it does not make it go away.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Whovian (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 02:25 PM

36. I am going to Venezuela to meet with the Tepuis...

I always post that sentence when I think Agent Mike is checking in here...

Mike..


Tikki

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Whovian (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 02:31 PM

37. Wouldn't be surprising. What else wouldn't be surprising

would be that they have no idea what to do with all that information.

On the other hand, I wonder if they'd send me copies of all the emails my wife and I exchanged before we got married? Most of them were on GEnie and Compuserve. I'd like to read them again.

However, from my inside sources at the NSA, I've learned that all posts from The DU Lounge are transferred to the null device on receipt. They were causing too much confusion for the data miners. In pseudocode:

IF post (source) = "The DU Lounge"
THEN
COPY post TO "Null Device"
ENDIF

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Whovian (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 02:58 PM

40. So those in power get to use the Patriot Act as they see fit.

Cheney used it to nail Elliot Spitzer for having an affair. I tried to warn those on the right that loved the power the Patriot Act gave them, that the worm would turn. Of course they werent smart enough to understand. So now Pres Obama has the power and Gen Petraeus get nailed for having an affair.

Heaven help us if the reich gets the power back.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rhett o rick (Reply #40)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 04:11 PM

46. I had that very argument with some RWers at work -- the worm would turn, and someone they

hated would inevitably have the same powers under the Patriot Act. So think again. Of course they didn't, and now they are going on and on about 'Obummer' doing this or that, when Bush did the exact same thing and they didn't even peep. There's no teaching them, I've found.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Nay (Reply #46)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 04:15 PM

47. I agree, but we have the same problem in our backyard.

People that criticized Bush for using the Patriot Act are now just fine with it now that Pres Obama is in office.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rhett o rick (Reply #47)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 04:29 PM

49. True, although I personally am not one of those people. Between drones, Patriot Act, and a few

other monstrosities, I had a hard time voting for Obama; as usual, I was voting against the total crazies.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Whovian (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 03:38 PM

44. I'm not surprised..

.... and I agree with a previous poster, pretty much anything they can do they will do.

That said, the interviewer is thick as a brick and apparently has not even a rudimentary grasp of technology.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Whovian (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 04:26 PM

48. James Bamford has been writing about this for around 2 decades.

Very few people knew the NSA existed until his first book "The Puzzle Palace" was published.

In "The Shadow Factory" published in 2008, he reports that the NSA is storing every communication generated (telephone, email, text, you name it) in its massive data bases.

Not exactly a new revelation here, but very under reported.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Whovian (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 04:43 PM

51. Of course. Simple logic dictates that this must be true. What's up, Agent Mike?



In other news, the sun is hot.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Whovian (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 04:47 PM

53. The American people never had a chance to vote on this and we never will.

So this isn't really a democracy. If it were this would have come up for a vote at some point. And it probably never will.

This stuff was not even discussed in the election campaigns at all. It was totally ignored.

Hardly no talk of this on the mainstream TV news. Not very useful news.

It's bad enough when Bush or Romney would do this stuff. But it's expected of them.



Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to limpyhobbler (Reply #53)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 05:48 PM

54. Yup, when has our Democratic President EVER been forced to answer questions about this

in a sustained, public way?

If we needed any further proof that we are living in a sham Democracy, here it is.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Whovian (Original post)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 11:35 AM

55. Kick. Ignoring it does not make it go away.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink

Reply to this thread