Wed Dec 5, 2012, 10:30 AM

Laurian (1,115 posts)

Unbelievable! Another example of our out of control gun culture.

Last edited Wed Dec 5, 2012, 10:31 AM USA/ET - Edit history (1)

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by aikoaiko (a host of the General Discussion forum).

An argument resulting from a man bumping into a car with his wheelchair ends in a shooting death.

http://www.ajc.com/ap/ap/crime/wheelchair-bumps-car-at-gas-station-woman-shot/nTNHR/

Damn.

83 replies, 2549 views

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Replies to this discussion thread

83 replies	Author	Time	Post
Unbelievable! Another example of our out of control gun culture. (Original post)	Laurian	Dec 2012	OP
Uh-oh. You're asking for trouble from the DU gun brigade.	Aristus	Dec 2012	#1
I know, but this seemed so absurd. I was stunned by it.	Laurian	Dec 2012	#3
Precious	bongbong	Dec 2012	#39
Well, it seems clear	billh58	Dec 2012	#44
You're missing something else. The shooting happened in Georgia, and the shooter was arrested.	slackmaster	Dec 2012	#53
Good!	bongbong	Dec 2012	#65
Not going to issue any judgement on this yet since there isn't much detail	justanidea	Dec 2012	#2
Execution isn't justified in any of those posibilities.	tridim	Dec 2012	#4
Exactly. What could have started and ended as a shouting match instead	Aristus	Dec 2012	#5
Execution?	justanidea	Dec 2012	#6
IF he didn't have the gun the woman would still be alive n/t	malaise	Dec 2012	#16
But...	sarisataka	Dec 2012	#22
It's better to convict someone in the court of public opinion	former-republican	Dec 2012	#31
Opinion and knee jerk reaction	sarisataka	Dec 2012	#36
Threatening?	bongbong	Dec 2012	#67
Exactly	madokie	Dec 2012	#7
Yea sure, don't want to support gun carrying if you'll	upaloopa	Dec 2012	#10
Huh?	justanidea	Dec 2012	#11
You didn't say it was. That would be what people do.	upaloopa	Dec 2012	#14
You implied by jumping to try and find a justification	joeybee12	Dec 2012	#15
You mean like our court system does	former-republican	Dec 2012	#19
Pathetic.	morningfog	Dec 2012	#13
I can shoot someone for yelling and screaming at me?	Iggo	Dec 2012	#18
If the person threatens you and you are in a wheelchair, possibly yes.	slackmaster	Dec 2012	#20
Yes!	Iggo	Dec 2012	#60
Got your "Kill Kill Kill" right here, as requested.	slackmaster	Dec 2012	#75
Thats great!	bongbong	Dec 2012	#70
My experience is that those who carry in public tend to be callous and perhaps paranoid.	Hoyt	Dec 2012	#72
Uh context is everything.	justanidea	Dec 2012	#73
No.	justanidea	Dec 2012	#25
Another one of our peaceful law abiding gunners	upaloopa	Dec 2012	#8
America has many out of control "cultures"	hack89	Dec 2012	#9
Biggest killer in the U.S and the world	former-republican	Dec 2012	#21
I have lost more friends and family	sarisataka	Dec 2012	#26
I believe that!	wendylaroux	Dec 2012	#29
Old Age kills, too	bongbong	Dec 2012	#37
I posted something that is true about alcohol deaths in the U.S and the world	former-republican	Dec 2012	#54
Yes it is less civilized when some gun toter shoots someone in a situation like this.	Hoyt	Dec 2012	#28
Don't forget you have never been safer and will be even safer next year. nt	hack89	Dec 2012	#32
No thanks to guns	bongbong	Dec 2012	#35
Never said it was due to guns. It is simply a fact that gun violence is at historic lows	hack89	Dec 2012	#40
Then why do you keep promoting more and more guns, and your buddies keep carrying in public.	Hoyt	Dec 2012	#46
I don't promote more and more guns.	hack89	Dec 2012	#52
Talking Points	bongbong	Dec 2012	#58
So you are saying that gun violence is not at historic lows and steadily declining?	hack89	Dec 2012	#61
Glad you agree	bongbong	Dec 2012	#64
I have told you that countless times	hack89	Dec 2012	#66
I usually feel safe, and it is not because the gun culture can't keep from arming up.	Hoyt	Dec 2012	#45
It is because the threat they represent is constantly diminishing	hack89	Dec 2012	#55
You don't know jack shit about the situation yet, Hoyt	slackmaster	Dec 2012	#51
Oh come on, Slack, you guys wanted us to wait years to express an opinion on Zimmerman,	Hoyt	Dec 2012	#74
No, I expressed my opinion on Zimmerman less than a month after the shooting, and it hasn't changed	slackmaster	Dec 2012	#76
What happened to "an armed society is a polite society" NRA slogan from a while back?	byeya	Dec 2012	#12
I guess that implies one will be polite only if you are intimidated by gun owners, huh?	sadbear	Dec 2012	#23
The complete Heinlein quote puts a slight different spin on it	hack89	Dec 2012	#30
The Problem With That, Sir, Is That People Tend To Over-Rate The Odds Of Their Success....	The Magistrate	Dec 2012	#48
On the other hand	hack89	Dec 2012	#50
Or Simply Resolve To go In Hard, Sir, and Take No Chances	The Magistrate	Dec 2012	#57
"tone of hysteria" applies to the extremist on both sides	hack89	Dec 2012	#59
One Side, Though, Sir, Is Hard Right Wing, And Dangerous On Its Own Terms	The Magistrate	Dec 2012	#62
So you see no middle ground what so ever?	hack89	Dec 2012	#63
Plenty Of Middle Ground, Sir, But It is Not Present In Political Discussion Of Firearms	The Magistrate	Dec 2012	#69
I would certainly agree with you there.	hack89	Dec 2012	#77
I so enjoy reading your posts and discussions with others. n/t	Whovian	Dec 2012	#79
The problem is more likely car culture and the violence that goes with it	slackmaster	Dec 2012	#17
So it was her fault?	sadbear	Dec 2012	#24
There's not enough information to even begin to analyze who was at fault	slackmaster	Dec 2012	#27
Guns are needed by many people	bongbong	Dec 2012	#33
I wonder how many other people are shot to death over some	Auntie Bush	Dec 2012	#34
Nicole Brown	ax4john	Dec 2012	#38
And the thousands of other knife victims, too.	sadbear	Dec 2012	#42
A left over	billh58	Dec 2012	#47
Another example of the grand American bargain:	Comrade Grumpy	Dec 2012	#41
We made the same bargain about alcohol too. nt	hack89	Dec 2012	#56
Thou shalt not...	99Forever	Dec 2012	#43
Unrec for OP title conflating near half the population with criminal behavior.	Ya Basta	Dec 2012	#49
She'd be alilve today if the man wasn't armed	rustydog	Dec 2012	#68
Whoa!	believer10101	Dec 2012	#71
Do you have links to this bull you are teaching folks? Are you an NRA "certified" instructor?	Hoyt	Dec 2012	#78
Now there's one fresh steaming pile...	99Forever	Dec 2012	#81
Why is it that every post in GD that has something to do with guns as a murder weapon	Whovian	Dec 2012	#80
I have news for you Whovian - DU is widely read among people with very diverse beliefs about things.	slackmaster	Dec 2012	#82
Locking	aikoaiko	Dec 2012	#83

Response to Laurian (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 10:36 AM

Aristus (29,302 posts)

1. Uh-oh. You're asking for trouble from the DU gun brigade.

They'll tell you that the problem is obviously not with guns, but with cars and wheelchairs...

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Response to Aristus (Reply #1)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 10:44 AM

Laurian (1,115 posts)

3. I know, but this seemed so absurd. I was stunned by it.

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Response to Aristus (Reply #1)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 12:11 PM

bongbong (5,436 posts)

39. Precious

Their Precious rules their world.

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Response to Aristus (Reply #1)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 12:16 PM

billh58 (2,624 posts)

44. Well, it seems clear

that the woman got out of her car with malice aforethought in order to viciously attack the man in the wheelchair and posed an imminent bodily threat to him. He was only standing his ground, and shooting in self-defense was the only way he could defend himself from this unprovoked attack.

When everyone is armed, these incidents will become so common that we won't even find them newsworthy. That's the USA that RKBA gun carriers everywhere are longing for.

Just in case anyone has doubts...

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Response to billh58 (Reply #44)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 12:29 PM

slackmaster (60,567 posts)

53. You're missing something else. The shooting happened in Georgia, and the shooter was arrested.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #53)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 01:03 PM

bongbong (5,436 posts)

65. Good!

Last edited Wed Dec 5, 2012, 01:05 PM USA/ET - Edit history (1)

I'm glad that the arrest brought the person back to life that the Delicate Flower (the gun-nut) killed.

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Response to Laurian (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 10:41 AM

justanidea (277 posts)

2. Not going to issue any judgement on this yet since there isn't much detail

The article just says that the woman got out of her car and the man in the wheelchair shot her.

Did she just casually get out of her car and he freaked out?

Was she getting out and apologizing and he just went psycho?

Or was she getting out of the car yelling/screaming/threatening the man in the wheelchair?

This is important to know.

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Response to justanidea (Reply #2)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 10:44 AM

tridim (40,707 posts)

4. Execution isn't justified in any of those posibilities.

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Response to tridim (Reply #4)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 10:49 AM

Aristus (29,302 posts)

5. Exactly. What could have started and ended as a shouting match instead

ended with a body bag and someone in custody. The distinguishing factor in this case is the gun.

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Response to tridim (Reply #4)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 10:49 AM

justanidea (277 posts)

6. Execution?

I'd imagine if the woman got out of her car and starting threatening the man with violence, that defending one's self could hardly be considered "execution".

Don't get me wrong, if I walked into someone's car and they got out yelling/screaming/threatening me, or even physically pushing/shoving me, I wouldn't draw a gun. But that's because I'm a fit 22 year old and can handle myself well enough in a fist fight to not be too worried. If I was a 73 year old in a wheelchair however, I'd imagine my threshold for feeling my life is in danger would be much lower.

Anyway, the article is light on details, so it's pointless to speculate. All I am saying is depending on what happened between the woman exiting her car and the shots being fired directly impacts whether this is a murder or a self-defense shooting.

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Response to justanidea (Reply #6)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 11:43 AM

malaise (105,913 posts)

16. IF he didn't have the gun the woman would still be alive n/t

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Response to malaise (Reply #16)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 11:53 AM

sarisataka (2,156 posts)

22. But...

if he didn't have the gun would he be seriously injured or dead? Being in a wheel chair means his ability to physically fight or retreat is somewhat hindered.

From the few details in the article it looks questionable, but that is why reporters don't investigate crimes for charges. We have police who will do that and may possibly find that he was justified based on information the report did not include or did not know. Or we may read about him being charged for a crime.

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Response to sarisataka (Reply #22)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 12:05 PM

former-republican (2,163 posts)

31. It's better to convict someone in the court of public opinion

"Hell" let's just do away with our court system and go to vigilante justice!

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Response to former-republican (Reply #31)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 12:09 PM

sarisataka (2,156 posts)

36. Opinion and knee jerk reaction

seems to be the preferred method of passing judgement.

I followed your link to AWARE that was so pilloried. Yes it did mention 'gun' and offer training but if you looked past those links (25% or so) there was a bushel of good information and resources.

True as some pointed there was nothing on PTSD but their mission is prevention. Most victim support groups do little prevention education. Not every organization can be all things to all people.

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Response to justanidea (Reply #6)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 01:07 PM

bongbong (5,436 posts)

67. Threatening?

So words, just threatening words, are now grounds for execution?

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Response to tridim (Reply #4)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 10:50 AM

madokie (36,533 posts)

7. Exactly

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Response to justanidea (Reply #2)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 11:04 AM

upaloopa (2,064 posts)

10. Yea sure, don't want to support gun carrying if you'll

look like a fool. Wait until you can make some argument supporting gun rights. Like every other gun violence post gunners can't admit that this is a tragic death and deserves pause to consider if something is wrong with our society. Gunners are losing the debate day by day. At least have some human feelings for the woman who is now deprived of life liberty and the persuit of happiness!

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Response to upaloopa (Reply #10)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 11:08 AM

justanidea (277 posts)

11. Huh?

Where did I say this death isn't tragic? I just said we don't know the details.

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Response to justanidea (Reply #11)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 11:32 AM

upaloopa (2,064 posts)

14. You didn't say it was. That would be what people do.

People then seeing tragedy reflect on it and try to make some sense of it.

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Response to justanidea (Reply #11)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 11:42 AM

joeybee12 (41,659 posts)

15. You implied by jumping to try and find a justification

for the shooting...no, you're not looking for answers, you're looking for an excuse.

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Response to joeybee12 (Reply #15)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 11:44 AM

former-republican (2,163 posts)

19. You mean like our court system does

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Response to justanidea (Reply #2)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 11:20 AM

morningfog (4,140 posts)

13. Pathetic.

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Response to justanidea (Reply #2)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 11:44 AM

Iggo (22,288 posts)

18. I can shoot someone for yelling and screaming at me?

Sweet!

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Response to Iggo (Reply #18)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 11:49 AM

slackmaster (60,567 posts)

20. If the person threatens you and you are in a wheelchair, possibly yes.

Last edited Wed Dec 5, 2012, 11:49 AM USA/ET - Edit history (1)

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #20)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 12:55 PM

Iggo (22,288 posts)

60. Yes!

Kill! Kill! Kill!

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Response to Iggo (Reply #60)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 01:17 PM

slackmaster (60,567 posts)

75. Got your "Kill Kill Kill" right here, as requested.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #20)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 01:10 PM

bongbong (5,436 posts)

70. Thats great!

How much yelling? Above a certain db? How about the choice of words?

Does "fuck you" rate a wounding, but calling somebody worse rate death? What do the Delicate Flowers use for their "threatening words = execution" metric?

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Response to bongbong (Reply #70)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 01:14 PM

Hoyt (12,089 posts)

72. My experience is that those who carry in public tend to be callous and perhaps paranoid.

That's a dangerous combination.

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Response to bongbong (Reply #70)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 01:15 PM

justanidea (277 posts)

73. Uh context is everything.

Last edited Wed Dec 5, 2012, 01:16 PM USA/ET - Edit history (1)

If someone came up to you in a dark alley and said "I have a knife and am going to kill you.", you'd have to agree that deadly force would be justified.

Not like you need to wait around until you're actually dead to take action.

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Response to Iggo (Reply #18)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 11:56 AM

justanidea (277 posts)

25. No.

Most states law says you must "Reasonably believe that you are at risk of immediate serious bodily injury or death" to use deadly force.

I'd imagine it wouldn't take much to serious injure an elderly man in a wheelchair, so the threshold for using force would likely be lower.

You still couldn't shoot them just for shouting at you. But if you're in a wheelchair, you also likely wouldn't have to wait until they're already beating the crap out of you to do something.

There is a difference between someone yelling "You stupid asshole!" and someone getting out of their car and yelling "I"m going to drag you out of that wheelchair and kick the crap out of you!"

Not saying any of that happened in this incident. The man in the wheelchair could have just murdered the lady because he was pissed off.

That's why I said I wanted more details.

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Response to Laurian (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 10:57 AM

upaloopa (2,064 posts)

8. Another one of our peaceful law abiding gunners

So what's the difference here between the woman being shot by a gang member or a NRA member? Dead is dead and a gun is a gun.
Can't wait to see how the gunners use this tragedy to promote their love of guns. Maybe the woman should have had a gun too!

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Response to Laurian (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 10:58 AM

hack89 (21,223 posts)

9. America has many out of control "cultures"

The Alcohol culture is the one that concerns me the most - it is the big killer where I live.

The irony is that while my brain acknowledges the facts that say we have never been safer from violence of any kind, my heart tells me that America is a rougher, less civil place than it use to be.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #9)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 11:52 AM

former-republican (2,163 posts)

21. Biggest killer in the U.S and the world

Alcohol causes nearly 4 percent of deaths worldwide, more than AIDS, tuberculosis or violence, the World Health Organization warned on Friday

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/11/alcohol-related-deaths-_n_821900.html

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Response to former-republican (Reply #21)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 11:56 AM

sarisataka (2,156 posts)

26. I have lost more friends and family

to alcohol than guns. That includes participation in armed conflict.

Over in RBKA there is a poster who advocates one strike and you are out for guns, including dropping your gun, being old or obese. How many would accept one DWI and you loose your license forever?

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Response to former-republican (Reply #21)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 12:04 PM

wendylaroux (555 posts)

29. I believe that!

and mix alcohol with the guns means big trouble.

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Response to former-republican (Reply #21)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 12:10 PM

bongbong (5,436 posts)

37. Old Age kills, too

> Alcohol

A not-so-subtle attempt to change the subject.

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Response to bongbong (Reply #37)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 12:30 PM

former-republican (2,163 posts)

54. I posted something that is true about alcohol deaths in the U.S and the world

That thing in a bottle "kills " more people than guns.

Spot on analogy also , comparing alcohol related deaths to Old Age Deaths caused by Natural Causes.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #9)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 12:01 PM

Hoyt (12,089 posts)

28. Yes it is less civilized when some gun toter shoots someone in a situation like this.

Guns might be just one of our problems, but that is not a good reason to continue letting more and more people buy and carry them in more and more places.

The gun culture really has lost their minds, and it's time to restrict them because we don't live in a war zone.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #28)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 12:05 PM

hack89 (21,223 posts)

32. Don't forget you have never been safer and will be even safer next year. nt

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Response to hack89 (Reply #32)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 12:09 PM

bongbong (5,436 posts)

35. No thanks to guns

Still trotting out that logical fallacy, I see. NRA Talking Lies don't seem to ever go away.

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Response to bongbong (Reply #35)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 12:12 PM

hack89 (21,223 posts)

40. Never said it was due to guns. It is simply a fact that gun violence is at historic lows

and still declining.

It doesn't matter what the reason is as long as we are safer - right?

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Response to hack89 (Reply #40)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 12:19 PM

Hoyt (12,089 posts)

46. Then why do you keep promoting more and more guns, and your buddies keep carrying in public.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #46)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 12:29 PM

hack89 (21,223 posts)

52. I don't promote more and more guns.

I am satisfied with the status quo.

As for my buddies, public carry is not a new thing. Surely you can present actually stats on the threat of public carry by now. Can you?

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Response to hack89 (Reply #40)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 12:51 PM

bongbong (5,436 posts)

58. Talking Points

Your Talking Point has been conclusively rebutted by me over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over - and you STILL keep repeating it.

Correlation is not causation.

For the THOUSANDTH time! Learn some logic and quit parroting the NRA!

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Response to bongbong (Reply #58)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 12:57 PM

hack89 (21,223 posts)

61. So you are saying that gun violence is not at historic lows and steadily declining?

How many times do I have to say it was not due to increased gun ownership?
How many times do I have to say it was not due to increased gun ownership?
How many times do I have to say it was not due to increased gun ownership?
How many times do I have to say it was not due to increased gun ownership?
How many times do I have to say it was not due to increased gun ownership?
How many times do I have to say it was not due to increased gun ownership?
How many times do I have to say it was not due to increased gun ownership?

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Response to hack89 (Reply #61)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 01:02 PM

bongbong (5,436 posts)

64. Glad you agree

That more guns has not helped keep people safer.

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Response to bongbong (Reply #64)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 01:04 PM

hack89 (21,223 posts)

66. I have told you that countless times

but you would rather engage in personal attacks so you keep ignoring that.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #32)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 12:18 PM

Hoyt (12,089 posts)

45. I usually feel safe, and it is not because the gun culture can't keep from arming up.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #45)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 12:31 PM

hack89 (21,223 posts)

55. It is because the threat they represent is constantly diminishing

what do you think is the bigger threat to America - guns or alcohol? Just curious.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #28)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 12:28 PM

slackmaster (60,567 posts)

51. You don't know jack shit about the situation yet, Hoyt

Time will educate us all.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #51)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 01:16 PM

Hoyt (12,089 posts)

74. Oh come on, Slack, you guys wanted us to wait years to express an opinion on Zimmerman,

Loughner, Holmes, Stawicki and every other gun cultist gone mad.

Wait long enough, as the NRA encourages, and it will all blow away and the gun culture can get back to the same old crud.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #74)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 01:18 PM

slackmaster (60,567 posts)

76. No, I expressed my opinion on Zimmerman less than a month after the shooting, and it hasn't changed

He's at fault for precipitating a conflict without justification, therefore he's morally responsible for the outcome.

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Response to Laurian (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 11:18 AM

byeya (1,915 posts)

12. What happened to "an armed society is a polite society" NRA slogan from a while back?

Only the rubes bought it I guess and the rest of the citizenery was appalled.

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Response to byeya (Reply #12)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 11:55 AM

sadbear (4,218 posts)

23. I guess that implies one will be polite only if you are intimidated by gun owners, huh?

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Response to byeya (Reply #12)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 12:04 PM

hack89 (21,223 posts)

30. The complete Heinlein quote puts a slight different spin on it

An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.

He sees guns in the hands of others as making people moderate their actions.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #30)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 12:22 PM

The Magistrate (80,505 posts)

48. The Problem With That, Sir, Is That People Tend To Over-Rate The Odds Of Their Success....

Business and war, among other grand concerns, are utterly dependent on this odd feature of humankind. It is very seldom that each party to a war, for instance, does not expect to win it, though of course at least one of them must be wrong. No one starts a business with the intention of losing the capital and time invested, but that is the outcome of many ventures all the same, no matter how convinced their principals were the thing would succeed handsomely.

Therefore the chief effect of a person's knowing there would of 'guns in the hands of others' could reasonably be expected to be a belief by that person he or she could shoot faster and straighter than the rest in a pinch, and a willingness to act on the basis of that belief, and give what offense, or take what umbrage, seemed gratifying at the moment....

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #48)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 12:27 PM

hack89 (21,223 posts)

50. On the other hand

a criminal knowing that there is a good chance of an armed resident may think twice before entering someone else's home.

I question the utility of carrying in public - I personally find it easier to stay away from dangerous areas. But home defense is another issue altogether. I reserve the right to defend my family as I see fit.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #50)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 12:37 PM

The Magistrate (80,505 posts)

57. Or Simply Resolve To go In Hard, Sir, and Take No Chances

Or, as most burglars prefer, make certain no one is in the home before entering. In which circumstance, firearms become valuable booty, along with electronics or jewelry or what have you.

Bear in mind, Sir: I have no disagreement with the exercise of the right of self-defense, and the employment of lethal force to do so when appropriate, nor am I the least bit skittish of fire-arms, or any other weapon, for that matter. My objection is to the tone of hysteria, and obvious lack of honesty, both with oneself and with others, which marks so much of the discourse of the N.R.A. and its ilk on the subject.

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #57)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 12:55 PM

hack89 (21,223 posts)

59. "tone of hysteria" applies to the extremist on both sides

the error is in assuming that anyone who disagrees with me is an "extremist".

There is a large middle group of gun owners that are not "militia types" or "hidden criminals" as has been argued here. A tiny portion of gun owners are NRA members yet gun owners are always smeared with the NRA brush. A significant proportion of Democrats own guns and yet gun ownership is constantly portrayed as a RW value.

The DU gun wars will rage on - drama is a DU constant. But you know as well as I that it is all for naught so I don't let it bother me. You and I will never see eye to eye on guns. I can live with that.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #59)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 12:59 PM

The Magistrate (80,505 posts)

62. One Side, Though, Sir, Is Hard Right Wing, And Dangerous On Its Own Terms

So it is easy for me to know which side to take up on....

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #62)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 01:00 PM

hack89 (21,223 posts)

63. So you see no middle ground what so ever?

to disagree with you is to be RW? I didn't realize you were the progressive gold standard. I will have to be more respectful in the future.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #63)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 01:09 PM

The Magistrate (80,505 posts)

69. Plenty Of Middle Ground, Sir, But It is Not Present In Political Discussion Of Firearms

The political discussion of firearms is driven is driven by fetishization and fantasy, used to justify opposition to progressive politicians and tendencies.

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #69)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 01:21 PM

hack89 (21,223 posts)

77. I would certainly agree with you there.

Last edited Wed Dec 5, 2012, 01:23 PM USA/ET - Edit history (1)

I am not sure exactly how to take the venom out of that particular political discourse. Overturning Citizens United might be a good start.

However I question the commonly held notion that if only the NRA and its kind were out of the picture that somehow America would regain its sanity and pass all this "reasonable" gun control that certain groups want. I wonder, for example, if gun control is a widespread and deeply held view in the Democratic party that is merely suppressed at the national level by fear of the NRA then why hasn't a gun control group garnered the support of tens of millions of voters? Why is there no progressive mirror image of the NRA with equal number of supporters and an equal amount of financial support? The answer seems simple to me - passion for gun control maybe widespread but is very shallow. It certainly was not a big vote concern during the election - I saw no poll showing gun control as a pressing issue.

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #69)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 01:30 PM

Whovian (2,866 posts)

79. I so enjoy reading your posts and discussions with others. n/t

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Response to Laurian (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 11:44 AM

slackmaster (60,567 posts)

17. The problem is more likely car culture and the violence that goes with it

So the guy scratched the woman's car. Could that possibly justify whatever she said or did that resulted in her getting shot?

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #17)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 11:56 AM

sadbear (4,218 posts)

24. So it was her fault?

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Response to sadbear (Reply #24)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 11:57 AM

slackmaster (60,567 posts)

27. There's not enough information to even begin to analyze who was at fault

There are conflicting news reports, none of which have any information about what transpired between the two.

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Response to Laurian (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 12:06 PM

bongbong (5,436 posts)

33. Guns are needed by many people

Many Americans are so terrified of EVERYTHING that they cower in fear, hidden in their bunkers, unless they are strapped.

You never know when you'll come across a "thug" (wink wink - to a gun-nut that means a darker colored person) in your travels in Bumfuck, USA.

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Response to Laurian (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 12:07 PM

Auntie Bush (15,229 posts)

34. I wonder how many other people are shot to death over some

personal differences...but never make the news? Bet there are thousands!

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Response to Laurian (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 12:11 PM

ax4john (2 posts)

38. Nicole Brown

Lets ban knives as well....just ask Nicole Brown Simpson......

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Response to ax4john (Reply #38)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 12:15 PM

sadbear (4,218 posts)

42. And the thousands of other knife victims, too.

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Response to ax4john (Reply #38)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 12:19 PM

billh58 (2,624 posts)

47. A left over

from yesterday's swarm of gun nuts. Welcome to DU...

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Response to Laurian (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 12:14 PM

Comrade Grumpy (3,341 posts)

41. Another example of the grand American bargain:

We get all the guns we want, just about wherever we want.

We get a few thousand people killed every year.

Sweet.

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Response to Comrade Grumpy (Reply #41)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 12:35 PM

hack89 (21,223 posts)

56. We made the same bargain about alcohol too. nt

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Response to Laurian (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 12:16 PM

99Forever (5,156 posts)

43. Thou shalt not...

... speak ill of the gun psychos precious.

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Response to Laurian (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 12:24 PM

Ya Basta (391 posts)

49. Unrec for OP title conflating near half the population with criminal behavior.

n/t

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Response to Laurian (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 01:09 PM

rustydog (8,091 posts)

68. She'd be alilve today if the man wasn't armed

Lethal force..Of course Wayne LaPierre would insist she should have been armed too,
and the other customers so everyone could exercize their 2nd amendment rights to kill innocent people in a bllind rage or sheer ignorance of the developing situation.

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Response to Laurian (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 01:12 PM

believer10101 (9 posts)

71. Whoa!

Last edited Wed Dec 5, 2012, 01:13 PM USA/ET - Edit history (1)

I've been teaching gun safety for years. My students have had zero shooting injuries. Screeching demands to ban guns just makes one look foolish. The states with the strictest gun bans have the highest per capita gun violence. The chance of a gun being used on a family member is 1/150th the chance of it being used to stop a bad guy.

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Response to believer10101 (Reply #71)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 01:25 PM

Hoyt (12,089 posts)

78. Do you have links to this bull you are teaching folks? Are you an NRA "certified" instructor?

I think "students" is a stretch.

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Response to believer10101 (Reply #71)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 01:42 PM

99Forever (5,156 posts)

81. Now there's one fresh steaming pile...

... of NRA lies for ya.

Wow and from a "poster" with 2 whole posts. Must just be a coincidence, right?

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Response to Laurian (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 01:34 PM

Whovian (2,866 posts)

80. Why is it that every post in GD that has something to do with guns as a murder weapon

brings out these very low post trolls extolling the virtues of being armed to the teeth because they imagine we are in such a predatory world? Are they getting paid for this or what?

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Response to Whovian (Reply #80)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 01:42 PM

slackmaster (60,567 posts)

82. I have news for you Whovian - DU is widely read among people with very diverse beliefs about things.

There are a lot of people out there who care passionately about the right to keep and bear arms, and they don't all feel that way because of your fantasy about thoughts of a predatory world. Posting a story about a homicide and framing it as a "gun" issue rather than a homicide and a crime investigation causes the thread to show up high on search engines.

One-off murders and other homicides happen every day. This story has some legs because it involves an elderly African-American man on a mobility device, and it happened at a gas station after an apparent minor collision with a vehicle.

People chime in on subjects that they care about. There is no big mystery here, and no grand conspiracy of people being paid to post on Democratic Underground. It's just the Internet.

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Response to Laurian (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 01:47 PM

aikoaiko (16,539 posts)

83. Locking

Gun threads that don't meet the criteria of "really big news" are prohibited in GD per the SOP. The Gun Control and Right to Keep and Bear Arms group might be a better place for this discussion.

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