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Tue Dec 4, 2012, 06:11 PM

 

Why should I vote Democratic?

Hello. Let me start off by saying, no matter how inarticulate and ridiculous the following post may seem, this is a legitimate thread. I'm sure by the title many of you will jump on me and assume I'm "trolling" but if you give me the benefit of the doubt, read my entire post, I have faith that at least the majority of you will see that this is an honest question.

A little bit about me, it may sound like I'm bragging, or a resume, but just so you all know where I'm coming from. I'm a white male in my mid-20s. I grew up in a lower-middle class home (Annual income for both parents was <$50,000) I didn't have everything I wanted, but I never went hungry. PArents were divorced around my 19th birthday, my mom lives in an apartment with my sister (Who is a stripper, honestly I couldnt make this stuff up) and my dad lives in an apartment by himself. Both my parents are democrats. My mom's family were big Staten Island union Democrats and my dad's family are big Dixiecrats (and still, despite their racism, sexism, homophobia, etc vote Democrat every election) I wasn't very political, but around the age of 13 I started going to the gun range. I equated Democrats with gun banning sissies who didn't want to defend themselves. Again, not trolling, these are the thoughts of a 13 year old surrounded by NRA members. I had no concept of social welfare programs, national debt, defense spending, etc etc.

I did extremely well in school. So you can imagine the surprise when 3 weeks after high school graduation I joined the Marine Corps and went to Parris Island. It wasn't for college money, it wasn't because I hated my family life, none of that. I just wanted to serve my country.

After a deployment to Iraq and being sent all over the world (and being treated like dirt) I figured this just wasn't for me. What really put me over the edge was the Post 9/11 GI Bill. I won't elaborate on it here, but its probably the greatest thing to ever happen to our returning servicemen. Just to make a point, I make more money now going to college than I did as an E3 with less than 2 years on active duty.

Depending on who you talk to, you'd lump me into the "libertarian" or "neo con" or even "moderate" category. I work with my uncle and he blasts Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh all day long. 6 hours of hooplah. At first I was like "Wow, Agenda 21 looks dangerous". Now its like "Dude, does this guy know what he's talking about? He's just trying to get his ratings up!"

They both make the claim that if the other side just could see our point! They'd vote with us! They are just blind to what is really going on!

Well, that made me realize, I've never given the Democrats a chance. I've been convinced from the time I was a preteen through the present (Glenn Beck doesn't help this) that Democrats are America hating, white man hating people that want to declare "War on Christmas".

My girlfriend, a big time Obama supporter, huge liberal feminist (odd pairing, I know) is who, indirectly, made me make this thread. She kept saying I just needed to talk to more people. But her main issue is abortion, which, honestly, isn't even on my political radar. (Thats probably why we get along)

So I'm going to listen to you guys. I'm not trying to belittle or argue with any one of you at all. I swear. This isn't a trap, I'm not trying to get into a huge debate. I just want to see the other side's point of view. I'm going to list the issues I find most important to me, in order, and then list why I don't think the Democratic party is right for me. If I'm mistaken (which is very possible) then please correct me. I'll list them numerically to make commenting on them easier.

1. Guns and self defense - This is pretty much my "single issue voter" bumper sticker. I view the right to self defense (anywhere, not just at my house) as paramount to living in a free society. Why should I have to "flee" if someone is trying to rob or attack me while I'm minding my business out on a date? I say this as someone who has actually pulled (although not fired) his firearm on two attackers late at night. If I did not have my Glock that night, what might have happened? Now the two scumbags are in jail.
-What I see: Democrats support all of the amendments to the Bill of Rights except the 2nd. Why are they all so inherently sacred but the one that protects all of the rest is demonized? How many cases has the ACLU defended the right to free speech, freedom of religion in? What about the right to bear arms? There is quite a difference. The democrats want to ban assault weapons, but when large scale riots kick off (like they did in my city in 1996) a hunting rifle is not going to protect you like an "assault rifle" will. And lets be serious, who thinks if another assault weapons ban is signed that the gangsters and criminals with them in their posession right now are going to turn them in? I know I'll turn mine in, but I'll never commit a crime with them. And crime rates have gone down, especially with assault weapons, since the bans sunset in 1994 (its all over the internet). Crime rates have also gone down in state's that have implemented shall-issue concealed carry laws. It seems a little odd for "progressives" to go backwards and undue laws that reduce crime?

2. Taxes. I don't pay much in taxes, but one day I hope to earn enough where it matters. Why should we punish those who earn more? There should be a flat tax system. Speaking of the fiscal cliff, isn't this just the expiration of the Bush tax cuts? Why are all the Democrats that were opposed to the Bush Tax Cuts now opposed to the tax increases? We're just going back to the days of Clinton (which were good, economically) what's the big deal? Also, forgive me, this may be a little Glenn Beck speaking. (I can't get that point out of my head)

3. Race - Affirmative action seems detrimental to everything the US stands for. Sure, racism still exists. I get that. But the President of the United States is black. Are we really going to say that minorities can't succeed in America without special rules? Maybe its the military in me - but I believe in a meritocracy. Everyone is judged based on ability only. If you can't perform, you don't get the job. It doesn't matter what color you are. When you start setting quotas, you open up an entirely new can of worms. This is just how I see it guys, remember. I'm not instigating anything.

4. Sex - My girlfriend has opened my eyes a little bit to this, wage disparities especially. But I see the Democrats catering to women by giving them special treatment. Free birth control? Doesn't seem that free. The insurance companies are just going to make everyone pay for birth control now with their premium increases. That doesn't seem very fair.

5. Environmental protection - I think I agree with many democrats that the EPA has done good things for America. I couldn't even imagine what this country would look like without regulations on big businesses and laws against chemical spills. But it seems that some Democrats want to take that even further, like they want us to live in the jungle in wooden huts or something where the only thing burning is weed while we sit around and share communal food. I think capitalism has a vested interest in keeping the forests stocked with trees, because if we used all the trees for lumber then the sellers wouldn't be able to make anymore money. Am I wrong here? (Please, by all means, if I am tell me)

6. Healthcare - I heard this girl at school the other day say "Everyone has the right to healthcare". I would love everyone to have affordable healthcare for sure, but how can one have the "right" to anything that depends on the hard work and expense of others? Rights, in my view, are things that can never ever be taken away from you. Things like self defense, free speech, freedom of thought, etc. If all of the doctors refuse to give you treatment, or you're ill and there are no health care facilities around...how do you still have that right?

7. Fast and Furious - Seems to me the idea was to stir up cries for gun laws due to southern states being affected by Mexican drug cartels but it backfired when they lost track of all the guns. This is what Rush told me, anyway. (30 hours a week of Beck and Limbaugh, cut me some slack please!)

I can go on, but these are a few issues off of the top of my head. I just don't know what the reaction to this post is going to be and I don't want to spend hours and hours on it if its going to be deleted within minutes.

I really hope this thread isn't locked/deleted as "trolling". I'm spending a good amount of time on it and really trying to reiterate that I'm not here to stir up trouble. I just want to know what the Democratic party has to offer me. I see the Democrats making gestures to all of these groups, but nothing that really benefits me. I'm not saying the Republicans benefit me either. But they seem more gun-friendly than the Democrats, so thats how I make my decision.

As far as the 2012 election went, I was a bit perplexed. There was only one man on the ballot who had signed assault weapons legislation, and he had an (R) next to his name; one man had signed pro-gun legislation and he had a (D) next to his name. What kind of twist is that?

Edit: There's a ton of more issues I'll be posting here as I think of them. After reading here, the issue of

8: Drug use - Legalize everything. Why is it that they were able to figure out Prohibition didn't work in <20 years, but we've had drugs outlawed for over a century and no progress is made whatsoever? I say this as someone who has never, ever used and illegal drug, and despises them (I grew up with them, and know what they do to someone)

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Arrow 75 replies Author Time Post
Reply Why should I vote Democratic? (Original post)
HonEur12 Dec 2012 OP
ProSense Dec 2012 #1
HonEur12 Dec 2012 #2
ProSense Dec 2012 #3
HonEur12 Dec 2012 #10
ProSense Dec 2012 #13
rDigital Dec 2012 #14
GeorgeGist Dec 2012 #4
malaise Dec 2012 #5
ProSense Dec 2012 #6
malaise Dec 2012 #25
HonEur12 Dec 2012 #7
devilgrrl Dec 2012 #8
BainsBane Dec 2012 #11
BainsBane Dec 2012 #9
HonEur12 Dec 2012 #15
Sekhmets Daughter Dec 2012 #29
1StrongBlackMan Dec 2012 #31
BainsBane Dec 2012 #34
Moses2SandyKoufax Dec 2012 #35
bluestate10 Dec 2012 #56
rDigital Dec 2012 #12
Kalidurga Dec 2012 #16
BainsBane Dec 2012 #17
upaloopa Dec 2012 #18
HonEur12 Dec 2012 #24
upaloopa Dec 2012 #30
BainsBane Dec 2012 #45
bluestate10 Dec 2012 #57
Sekhmets Daughter Dec 2012 #19
Hekate Dec 2012 #20
HonEur12 Dec 2012 #27
democrattotheend Dec 2012 #50
geek tragedy Dec 2012 #21
BainsBane Dec 2012 #22
geckosfeet Dec 2012 #23
Bandit Dec 2012 #26
JaneyVee Dec 2012 #28
krawhitham Dec 2012 #32
BainsBane Dec 2012 #33
bluestate10 Dec 2012 #58
magical thyme Dec 2012 #36
1StrongBlackMan Dec 2012 #37
BainsBane Dec 2012 #38
Selatius Dec 2012 #39
BainsBane Dec 2012 #40
XRubicon Dec 2012 #41
BainsBane Dec 2012 #43
HonEur12 Dec 2012 #46
XRubicon Dec 2012 #48
HonEur12 Dec 2012 #62
Ruby the Liberal Dec 2012 #65
bluestate10 Dec 2012 #59
Warpy Dec 2012 #42
hfojvt Dec 2012 #44
HonEur12 Dec 2012 #47
hfojvt Dec 2012 #53
bluestate10 Dec 2012 #60
hfojvt Dec 2012 #64
coalition_unwilling Dec 2012 #49
forestpath Dec 2012 #51
quaker bill Dec 2012 #52
tama Dec 2012 #54
bluestate10 Dec 2012 #55
Flabbergasted Dec 2012 #61
arely staircase Dec 2012 #63
Ruby the Liberal Dec 2012 #66
JoePhilly Dec 2012 #67
HonEur12 Dec 2012 #68
JoePhilly Dec 2012 #70
treestar Dec 2012 #69
HughBeaumont Dec 2012 #71
intaglio Dec 2012 #72
Tommy_Carcetti Dec 2012 #73
H2O Man Dec 2012 #74
raouldukelives Dec 2012 #75

Response to HonEur12 (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 06:18 PM

1. Did you vote for Mitt Romney?

I'm holding my nose.

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Response to ProSense (Reply #1)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 06:20 PM

2. No.

 

I voted R for everyone on my ballot except my local sheriff (The Democrat wants to punish small time marijuana users with a fine - not jail time) and the President.

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Response to HonEur12 (Reply #2)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 06:21 PM

3. Did you vote for President Obama? n/t

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Response to ProSense (Reply #3)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 06:27 PM

10. Yes.

 

Because a party that spent 4 years campaigning with the Tea Party against tax increases, liberals, moderates, atheists, etc etc etc nominating MITT ROMNEY was probably the dumbest thing I've ever seen in my short political life.

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Response to HonEur12 (Reply #10)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 06:31 PM

13. Eureka!

"Why should I vote Democratic?"

You've answered your own question. There really wasn't a need to go through all the RW talking points or take any of them seriously.

"Because a party that spent 4 years campaigning with the Tea Party against tax increases, liberals, moderates, atheists, etc etc etc nominating MITT ROMNEY was probably the dumbest thing I've ever seen in my short political life. "

If you can figure that out, why is it hard for you to notice the contradictions and flaws in the nonsense posted in the OP?

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Response to HonEur12 (Reply #10)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 06:32 PM

14. If you're being sincere about voting for President Obama, you're off to a great start. nt

 

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Response to HonEur12 (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 06:22 PM

4. Less than a week!

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Response to HonEur12 (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 06:23 PM

5. It's Democratic n/t

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Response to malaise (Reply #5)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 06:25 PM

6. Well:

"I voted R for everyone on my ballot except"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021927783#post3



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Response to ProSense (Reply #6)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 06:42 PM

25. Bwaaaaaaaaaaah hahahaha

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Response to malaise (Reply #5)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 06:25 PM

7. Thank you n/t

 

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Response to HonEur12 (Original post)


Response to devilgrrl (Reply #8)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 06:29 PM

11. Come on

He is making an honest attempt to understand another point of view.

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Response to HonEur12 (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 06:26 PM

9. As a vet you've earned the nation's respect

And financial support for healthcare and remaining employed. Republicans have continually tried to slash veterans benefits (a couple of times this year alone) in order to preserve tax giveaways for the wealthy.

Guns: there are a lot of Democratic gun rights advocates on this site. I am not one of them, but the Supreme Court has ruled the 2nd amendment extends to the personal right to guns. There is no political will for gun control in the Democratic party, so you have nothing to worry about in that regard.

A flat tax system is regressive. America has had progressive taxation since 1917. Moreover, most of the income of the wealthy is exempt from the flat tax we do now have--payroll taxes. Romney himself pays a lesser percentage in taxes than much of the 47% he maligned, who pay payroll taxes but not federal income tax. I would ask you why work and manufacturing should be taxed at a higher level than investment, that doesn't have the same positive impact on the economy? Why should someone who lives off of inherited wealth pay a lower tax rate than someone who has worked hard and earned their wealth through W2 income or a small business? The fact is, the lower one's income the greater percentage one pays in taxes (gas, property, communications, sales tax, and other federal and local taxes), even if they don't earn enough to qualify to pay federal income tax. That is with our current, so-called progressive tax system. Why would you want to exacerbate the already great disparity between rich and poor by shifting the tax burden further downward?

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #9)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 06:32 PM

15. Good points

 

Replies like this are what I was looking for. While I knew the Supreme Court has ruled in both Heller and McDonald that individuals have the right to own firearms for self defense, if you ask "Gun people" they say that Obama is just "one SC justice away from reversing that". Not sure if I give that any credit, but it is being said.

The tax part is pretty enlightening. Again, you're talking to a guy who's been fed "taxes = bad" for about 5 straight years so I'm soaking this up like a sponge.

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Response to HonEur12 (Reply #15)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 06:45 PM

29. "Gun people",

obviously, have been brain washed. No Supreme Court Justice would vote to take guns out of the hands of US citizens. None.... It would take a constitutional amendment and there is absolutely no way that will ever happen.

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Response to HonEur12 (Reply #15)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 06:48 PM

31. And that should be clear ...

if you ask "Gun people" they say that Obama is just "one SC justice away from reversing that"


Because President Obama has done so much to restrict gun sales/gun ownership.

The reason you should vote Democratic is because Democrats tend to base our decisions based on fact ... and Democratic legislators tend to base their policies on the same basis.

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Response to HonEur12 (Reply #15)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 06:54 PM

34. yeah, Obama has been great business for the gun companies

The fact is he has done nothing on the issue other than enable people to carry arms into national parks. That's an expansion of gun rights. As I said, I don't like any of this, but I know there is nothing I can do about it. There is a gun rights forum here on DU and you will find advocates there as fierce as any on the right. This really isn't a partisan issue anymore.

You will see a few threads favorable to Bob Costas' remarks on here. Those are the first I've seen on here in a long time. Talk is cheap though, and the law is the law. SCOTUS is the last word, absent a constitutional amendment which will NEVER happen.

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Response to HonEur12 (Reply #15)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 06:57 PM

35. If you ask me most "gun people"

are willfully ignorant and past the point of rational persuasion.

I find myself unable to give a shit about the concerns of people who refuse/ignore reality.

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Response to HonEur12 (Reply #15)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 12:12 AM

56. Obama hasn't shown any desire to take away gun right. His one act in this area was to

EXPAND gun use in National Parks. I want to see gun registration, with a standard, national law to gets rid of the state laws that are all over the place. But I really don't care what guns are registered. I have no use for a gun, but accept that some people like shooting guns of all types for recreation shooting and hunting. I would love to see the FEDs and states set up shooting ranges with sound proffing and stops for bullets and slugs and have those ranges privately run, as far as I am concerned, people can shoot cannons at those places if they want.

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Response to HonEur12 (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 06:30 PM

12. Ill bite: You should vote Democratic because the alternative

 

is middle/working class suicide.

Because, the ACA is preventing pre-existing illness denials on health insurance (huge deal).

Because there is no reason to hand our children's future to the Banksters.

Because you believe in equal rights for all.

Because the Republican Party is a tool of corporate America.

Because religion has no place in government.

Because Women should be paid as much as men.

Also, you can be pro individual-RKBA & still be a Democrat, there are millions of us.

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Response to HonEur12 (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 06:35 PM

16. Don't take this the wrong way...

But, I am fine with you where you are. But, that being said I will address your thoughts and concerns.

1. Causation does not equal correlation. If a ban expires the same year that crime goes down it doesn't mean that is the cause. Also, you thing about self protection. Your gun is 47x more likely to be used on someone you know rather than a criminal, that is just a statistic it says nothing about you personally. Even with that statistic I don't know a single Democrat that is against gun ownership in principle and that includes me. However, some things need to be fixed. People shouldn't be able to stroll into a gun show and buy a gun on the spot. I don't see any reason people shouldn't have to have some kind of mental exam to own a gun either, especially when we have an epidemic of mass shootings.

2. Flat taxes are regressive. You aren't suggesting that poor people should pay more in taxes than rich people are you? It is also a fact that rich people benefit far more from tax dollars than poor people do. I will let you figure that one out if you can. I don't know what you are talking about when you say Democrats oppose the tax increases, unless you are saying on people that make less than 250,000 dollars. They should be doing this. It hurts the economy a lot more when middle class people are taxed than it does when rich people are taxed. Look at the Clinton era for verification.

3. I don't think you understand affirmative action. And it effects so few people that it's almost ludicrous. I believe we need to go much farther than some piece of feel good legislation anyway. We need to look at education equality starting from kindergarten on. It is ridiculous that in this day and age that many students are being taught in buildings that are falling apart. If you want to know what is going on here, I suggest you read some Johnathan Kozal.

4. Fine you can have free condoms.

5. You sound like an alarmist. Calm down. Go back to your hut and take a deep breath.

6. The United States is 37th in how healthy our population is. Do you really want it to get worse?

7. Yeah whatever. Holder was exonerated. And this was never a real issue, except to ditto heads and Beckheads and the criminal that insisted on very expensive investigations.

Have fun with your stay here. And I mean that.

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Response to HonEur12 (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 06:36 PM

17. healthcare

Before Obamacare, the US pays 18% of GDP on healthcare, more than any nation on earth. Yet we have worse outcomes. We simply could not afford the existing system. It harms global competitiveness of US businesses and results in third world infant mortality levels. The fact is Obamacare--while far from ideal from the point of view of most progressives--saves taxpayers money, over $100 billion according to the Congressional Budget Office. Single payer would have been more cost effective, yet the Democrats did not believe the political will existed for it.

We all pay a great deal for the uninsured. That is one of the key financial savings of Obamacare. The argument that it costs more money is fiction, GOP propaganda. The existing system was the most expensive in the world precisely because of its rampant inefficiencies.

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Response to HonEur12 (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 06:37 PM

18. I suggest you take time to do some critical thinking

about what you were told by the right. Then do lots of research using the mind you were born with and make up your own mind how to vote.

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Response to upaloopa (Reply #18)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 06:41 PM

24. Its been a long time

 

You're talking to a guy who around the age of 12 started tossing everything a Democrat said out of the window.

For example, with regards to healthcare. Before 5 minutes ago I was under the impression that the goal of President Obama's healthcare law was the eventual takeover the healthcare industry and the subsequent (death panels). Yeah, I really believed that. I've never looked into it bipartisanly (Is that a word?) Ive always just accepted what I heard as background noise at work as truth.

It just "made sense" I guess.

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Response to HonEur12 (Reply #24)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 06:45 PM

30. That's the purpose of critical thinking.

Look up Immamuel Kant "what is enlightenment" and read the whole thing. It was written in the 1700's but is as true today as back then.

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Response to HonEur12 (Reply #24)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 07:38 PM

45. A good source for the healthcare law

is http://healthreform.kff.org/
That's the Kaiser Family Foundation's site. They are a non-partisan organization and the site helps people understand how the law impacts them.

http://www.factcheck.org/ and http://www.politifact.com/ can't help you check out some of the political talking points you hear. I sometimes quibble with their take on things, but they are generally fair.

I'm sorry some people on here are jerks. Dickishness knows no political party.
I appreciate that you're open to considering different points of view. That is key to learning anything. There are links to articles here you may find useful. Look on the home page, latest breaking news, and throughout other threads for links to articles.

The Nation and Mother Jones are good left wing publications with excellent, smart journalists. They don't pretend to be be "fair and balanced." They are left wing, but honest. Both have websites.

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Response to HonEur12 (Reply #24)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 12:20 AM

57. The purpose of the health care law is to reduce costs in the system and save the Government

money, and ultimately save you tax money. Take some time to compare our costs and system to that in Canada. Yes Canada is almost 1/10t our size, but their system dramatically reduced costs by implementing health care reform nationwide. Our system should be constantly checked for effectiveness and adjusted, but getting rid of it like republicans want is foolish from a financial standpoint.

I am a member of a plan that promotes preventative medicine. When I joined, I saw mostly young people in the plan. As it's reputation for preventative medicine has grown, there are more elderly people in the plan and a lot more families - those people wouldn't be joining to pay more money.

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Response to HonEur12 (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 06:38 PM

19. Hello....

If you're serious, ask me for a reading list.

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Response to HonEur12 (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 06:38 PM

20. Well, stick around and you can learn a lot without anyone spoon-feeding you

Just keep your eyes open, Grasshopper, and jump into existing threads rather than posting lengthy OPs trying to be provocative ("Tell me why I should..." to basic Democratic principles). Read, learn, participate.

As for your resume -- good on ya, but let it dribble out bit by bit as appropriate. DU has a broad range of people -- you just will not believe how broad and how deep until you've been here awhile.

Some people have had no advantages at all in life, and still struggle, yet contribute as much as possible here and elsewhere in their lives. Some people have PhDs and some have barely gotten out of high school, yet all contribute. Some people have had a good life and lost nearly everything through no fault of their own. Some people have achieved great things, or have had remarkable careers -- but the basic premises of democracy and the Democratic Party are pretty much a given. There are some lively conversations and some barroom brawls.

Cheers,

Hekate

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Response to Hekate (Reply #20)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 06:44 PM

27. I knew it wasn't the best approach

 

But I felt it was the only one.

For example, if a thread was made here about healthcare and my newbie screenname pops up with some provacative questions I thought I'd be flagged immediately as a troll and banned.

I only posted my "Background" to show others where I was coming from. Not to brag...not at all...

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Response to Hekate (Reply #20)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 09:32 PM

50. What's wrong with the OP's approach?

I think it's a good thing that this OP was brave enough to post his questions here and give us a chance to answer them. I think the Democratic Party is a wide tent and there is room for a lot of different opinions, and I wish it felt more like that around here.

Welcome to DU, and I don't have time to answer all of your questions, but with regard to the birth control thing, I think it is completely fair to spread the cost of birth control pills to both sexes through premiums, since both men and women are equally capable of conceiving a baby. I think it's unfair to have only the woman pay for the cost of avoiding pregnancy while giving men a free pass.

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Response to HonEur12 (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 06:40 PM

21. In order:

1) Guns--Democrats have a wide variety of opinions on guns. There are a LOT of pro-gun Democrats. Even given that fact, the NRA has won the gun debate. Democrats have no interest in pursuing gun legislation at a national level. They make some noise to appease liberals from northern cities, but that's it.

2) Taxes aren't a punishment for anyone--they're a way of paying for the society we live in. People who make a lot of money pay more in taxes because that's fair--they're benefitting the most from society, and they can afford to pay a little more than those who aren't doing as well. Flat tax would drive more people into poverty while being a huge advantage to people like Donald Trump and LeBron James--those who least need it.

3) Quotas haven't been used in ages. No one expects special treatment, but they do expect an honest-to-goodness fair opportunity. But, that means being able to get a good education, and a good job if you bust your butt and do a good job.

4) There's no free birth control. Women pay for health insurance, and birth control is helpful to their health. It's actually cheaper for insurance companies to cover birth control for women than it is for women to not use birth control, because it prevents them from developing other medical complications that cost money to cover.

5) Your perception of Democrats wanting that is incorrect. Heck, a lot of Democrats in Congress represent coal and oil states and quite honestly are too cozy with big polluters. Democrats live in the same kind of house you live in, and aren't going to change that for anyone.

6) Instead of thinking it of as a 'right' think of it as "do you want to live in a society where people are allowed to die miserable deaths because of preventable diseases because they're down on their luck?" Lots of people find themselves broke due to a run of bad luck. As a society, do we just let them die if they get sick?

7) Completely untrue. It was a botched attempt by low-level bureaucrats (same thing was tried under Bush by the way) to figure out how to infiltrate the cartels. Rush Limbaugh was lying to you.

Above all: Remember that the guys on the radio (Limbaugh), on the Internet (Drudge), and the television (Fox News) don't make money from keeping you informed. They make money by getting you all riled up so that you'll tune in tomorrow to hear what else those goddamn Democrats/liberals/etc are doing. They sell you a cartoon of what Democrats think, because they want you to not think and just tune in.

Those guys aren't news providers--they are entertainers. They are the Conservative Entertainment Complex.

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Response to HonEur12 (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 06:40 PM

22. birthcontrol

It is not special treatment. It is ending discrimination in insurance coverage. Insurance plans typically cover Viagra--that has no medical need--but not birth control. Why? Besides, you aren't paying for any of it. Obamacare regulates what insurance company provides. You need to turn off Fox. You're getting a lot of right wing propaganda which is simply false. The ACA law requires that preventative services be provided without copay (not free because we pay for insurance). Cancer screenings and birth control are part of preventative care.

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Response to HonEur12 (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 06:41 PM

23. You are the only person who can answer that. Use the web to gather information and educate yourself.

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Response to HonEur12 (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 06:42 PM

26. You are young, but remember with age comes wisdom

You are beginning to question and that is very very good..Keep asking questions and don't take anything anyone says as gospel.. especially those in the entertainment industry such as Rush or Glenn Beck, or Hannity or O'Really. If you truly want to learn more about your Civic responsibilities and the Politics of our nation I would suggest you catch the Rachel Maddow Show as often as possible. One major difference between the Parties that I have noticed throughout the years is Respect... Republicans show none to anyone while Democrats on the other hand, bend over backwards to show it..War on Christmas for example.. Democrats wish to Respect all Religions and try extremely hard not to offend anyone, while Republicans consider it a badge of honor to offend as many people and religions as possible...Question Authority It is something Republicans have a very hard time doing..as they are the Authoritarian Party....

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Response to HonEur12 (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 06:44 PM

28. Because our side doesn't have a Glenn Beck or a Rush Limbaugh. We are sane & rational, they are

incoherent, delusional, mental patients. Also, taxes aren't a "punishment", it's the price you pay for civilization. Healthcare is a right because no life is more valuable than another.

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Response to HonEur12 (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 06:48 PM

32. Your concern is noted

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Response to HonEur12 (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 06:50 PM

33. Affirmative action

Interesting that you should raise this since it is essentially illegal. Quotas were banned by the Supreme Court about 15 years ago. You believe this to be an issue because of GOP propaganda that seeks to stir up racial animosity for political purposes. As we saw in the past election, there aren't enough uneducated white men for that strategy to work anymore.

The court is currently reviewing a case from the University of Texas that examines race as party of one of many criteria that a university may use in admittance. Traditional affirmative action as you imagine it hasn't been legal in a long time, but some schools still consider diversity under limited circumstances. SCOTUS will rule on whether or not this is allowable.

As a white person who went to UT, I have to say the idea that something thinks they couldn't get it to that school because they are white is pretty pathetic. The school is primarily white. In every case I'm aware of, the people who sued in protest of affirmative action were unqualified candidates who couldn't be admitted even after racial preferences had been disbanded.

It would be nice if the most qualified applicant always was admitted. But then how would people like George W Bush even get into a graduate program? Legacy preferences are much stronger than affirmative action, yet funny that the right never complains about that. Evidently if you're born to the manor--as opposed to being born a person of color--you're entitled to an Ivy League education even if your grades suck. It's too bad people weren't worried about the most qualified applicant being admitted through the 1970s, when places like UT law school refused to admit anyone of color under any circumstances. They only did so when the court forced them to, and even then they set up a separate cafeteria line so the white students wouldn't have to come into contact with a man of color. That was in the 1970s.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #33)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 12:36 AM

58. Some elite schools are rejecting Asians in favor of Whites and other races, because

what they found was that if they used just grades and test scores, they would admit no group other than people from the various Asian groups, Indian, Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, ect. One objective of colleges and Universities is diversity in the student body, that diversity promotes broader thought. Personally, I feel that having Indians, Chinese, Japanese and other Asian groups as a student body delivers diversity on it's own, I deal with members of all Asian groups, none are cookie cutter form for the other, the one common characteristic is generally high academic performance among some Asian groups, probably because student's grandparents and parents came to the country for advanced study and simply understand the benefits of education and push their offspring to become educated.

BTW. Did you realize that seats in colleges are held for children of alumni or big contributors, or professors? I went to college with two kids whose parents were college professors and who got reduced cost education because of that fact, they also got admitted under special circumstances. I had no issue with them because both were bright, high performing students.

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Response to HonEur12 (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 06:59 PM

36. point by point, on the off chance you are not a troll...



1. Bill of Rights supports the right to bear arms in a well regulated militia. The vast majority of gun owners are not in any militia, and those who are in home-grown militias are not well regulated. Plus, Democrats don't want to ban guns, just regulate them to ensure responsible ownership. There is no legit reason for war weapons. If riots break out in the big cities, having a semi-automatic weapon will not protect you. Many democrats are responsible gun owners. I live in an area where much of the population hunts to eat. My first major purchase when I sell my house and move will be training and a gun for self protection.

2. I used to make enough money that I reached social security cap. It struck me then as wrong and it strikes me now as wrong. The wealthy are not being "punished" by being required to pay more in taxes. They have benefited the most from what our society has to offer, which is and should be paid for by everybody. They have many, many ways to reduce their tax load that the rest of us will never see. Study after study has shown that business prospers when tax rates are higher for the wealthy. The more money that is invested into the people and infrastructure of the US, the more everybody prospers. The more everybody prospers, the more they can participate in our economy. And the better *everybody* does, including the wealthy.

To paraphrase the famous Will Rogers, higher taxes on the wealthy doesn't really take their money away from them. It just gives it a chance to pass through the hands of the "little guy" on its way back to the wealthy.

On the Bush tax cuts, I have no idea what you are writing about. We wanted the Bush tax cuts to expire and the Republicans refused. We still want them to expire, only with a tax cut to the middle class and below to help us get back on our feet as we slowly pull out of the recession. Again, we are the people who keep the money moving.

Speaking of the so-called "fiscal cliff," it is a myth and we are more than happy to step over it, even though it will lead to massive cuts across the board. The Republicans are the ones who seem to be afraid of going off the cliff. We aren't. We want to see the military cuts that will result from the "fiscal cliff" deal and we want to see them made permanent.

3. Just because we the people elected a black man as president does not mean that racism in hiring and treatment is not alive and well at every level. The same is true of sexism. Until we get much closer not only to equal pay for equal work, but *equal opportunity* then we have lost ground to make up for. I say this as a sometime winner over sexism and recent major loser in sexism (in the hospital lab where I currently work).

4. Birth control isn't free. It should be covered as part of health insurance.

I'm sorry you have a problem paying for a portion of birth control. Personally, I have a serious problem paying for viagra, which is currently provided under...you got it...health insurance. What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. You wanna play, you gotta pay.

Furthermore, reduction of unwanted pregnancies means lower costs to society over all. Fewer abortions, fewer unwanted children born to people not able or ready to give them even decent, never mind quality, homes and upbringing. Fewer crimes and deadbeats down the road.

5. You are very wrong. A natural forest has tremendous diversity of growth and life forms, reducing the risk and size of forest fires, and improving the health of the trees. Monoculture of any type opens the door to many blights, insects, and other pathogens that can wipe out entire forests or even tree types once they get a good grip.

Also, most medicines were originally derived from the diversity of plant life that grows in wild areas.

6. I agree that we don't have the "right" to health care, however the fact is that as a society we can decide what we offer as rights. The Constitution states we have the right to the pursuit of happiness. But the fact is that is a small group of men who decided and chose to adopt that as a right.

I do believe we should have the equal right to *access* health care. Having said that, and working in the health care delivery system, I believe our entire healthcare system is a disaster. The main reason our costs are so high is because of our piss-poor life style coupled with lack of preventive care. Most illnesses are preventable by a quality diet and lifestyle. I personally don't want an insurance bureaucrat between me and my doctor any more than I want a government bureaucrat there. I don't see any real fix in that arena.

7. I'm not sure what your point is about Fast and Furious, but instead of relying on Glenn Beck, I suggest you do some simple research and find out what the investigation showed actually happened there. I expect you will be quite surprised. (Hint: IIRC it also started and ended with a single rogue cop who, imho, should have been dealt with more harshly early on.)

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Response to HonEur12 (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 07:01 PM

37. Ask yourself ...

Do I believe that bad things happen to, otherwise, undeserving good people?


And if you answer yes, ask yourself:

Am I willing to use my tax dollars to help these unfortunate, but good, people, even if I never directly benefit from the expenditure?


If the answer is still "Yes", you will eventually realize what Democrats are all about.

If the answer to either question is "No", Google: John Rawls, Veil of Ignorance. Then, re-assess life.

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Response to HonEur12 (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 07:02 PM

38. no huts in the jungles

but we do respect science and understand the scientific consensus that global warming is a serious problem. At this point it's really beyond whether the right believes what's happening. The issue is how we prepare for it and how many trillions it is going to cost us. Each degree (F) of increase in ocean temperature raises the severity of a hurricane by one category. Scientists now say it is too late to hold ocean temperature increases to 2 degrees Celsius (2.6 degrees F). So what was once a tropical storm is now a category 2 to 3 hurricane. Category 1 is now 3-4, and so on. All of that cost human lives and a great deal of money.

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Response to HonEur12 (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 07:04 PM

39. An answer to some of your questions.

Question 1:

I generally don't think the gun issue is a winner for Democrats. Historically, it hasn't. The laws on the books are fine, and most of the mass shootings in recent years, on closer examination, occurred with people who had no business having guns, such as those with major mental illness. This is a problem of lack of enforcement and an appalling lack of cohesive response to the issue of mental health in this country.

Question 2:

The idea is that everybody has skin in the game. If you own a financial empire and make huge profits, that's fine, but with great power comes great responsibility. You wouldn't be there if it weren't for other people's labors; a power grid that others built with public money; a sewage system other people built, also with public money; a communications grid built with public money; and roads, bridges, and rails that other people built with public money. You need all of that before you can even run a business. The point is to run such a huge enterprise requires a lot of resources that we all use, and the view on the left is that if you use up that level of resources, you should pay some of it back, kind of like how if you use up more electricity than others, you pay more than others when the bill comes due. It's not about punishing success but paying for disproportionate use of collective resources, especially in a time of war and struggle. I, for one, supported a war tax to pay for the war, but you never saw any Republican say that on television.

Question 3:

The United States doesn't really fit the definition of a meritocracy; it never did, and it never will. No nation does. It's as much who you know as what you know. That's as true in business as it is nationwide. Otherwise, George W. Bush would never have become president given his track record of failure. A program like Affirmative Action isn't a neat fix, but it likely is the best answer given the reality of the situation.

Question 4:

I think letting a woman decide for herself on the issue of abortion is best left up to the woman. At any rate, effective safe sex education and affordable access to contraception for a female is probably less of a cost than having that female be a teen mother on food stamps, Medicaid, and drawing other public services. As somebody who lived in Massachusetts and currently lives in Mississippi, you don't want to emulate Mississippi's example, having some of the highest teen pregnancy rates in the country, in the Bible Belt of all places, and has one of the highest percentages of people on public assistance in the nation. Abortion should be the absolute last resort; I'd rather have a baby placed for adoption than to see an abortion, but I'm simply not going to take the freedom to choose away from a woman, especially those who were raped or have an ectopic pregnancy.

Question 6:

I don't speak for others except myself on this part, but the simplest measure at the current time with respect to health care coverage and cost is the breaking up of monopolies and oligopolies in the health insurance market and with conglomerates that own chains of hospitals. The market for medical parts and supplies is dominated by monopolies as well. I believe in freedom from unfair competition and monopolies, and health care in the United States is an example of everything but freedom from either. The result is that health insurance companies, medical parts suppliers, and hospitals are free to charge as high as they possibly can without fear of being undercut by competition (that doesn't exist). To further increase competition after the monopolies are smashed, the government should offer a Public Option to people who wish to use it and runs at-cost. For those who like private health insurance plans, they should be allowed to keep it. Let competition and the freedom to choose between either bring down the prices.

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Response to HonEur12 (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 07:10 PM

40. Fast and Furious

I suggest you read the DOJ report. It may shock you to learn this, but politics exists in Washington. This was a partisan witch hunt, a personal dispute between a couple of border agents that got politicized.

Rush? Rush is an entertainer. He does not provide news. Just assume whatever he says is a lie because it generally is. Moreover, he knows he's full of it. And he's laughing all the way to the bank. If you enjoy the show fine, but don't mistake it for news.

Bush speech writer David Frum names Rush as part of the conservative entertainment complex that lies to Republican voters for profit. Frum identifies this as key to Romney's loss and declining support of the GOP. Republicans didn't run against the real Obama. They invented an evil straw man who doesn't exist. Their campaign depended on suspending reason and common sense and believing their conspiracies. Fast and Furious was one among many.

There are reputable, very conservative publications one can read. You can read the Wall Street Journal, National Review, etc.... Or Cato is a libertarian think tank that refuses to bow to the GOP talking points. All conservative but at least they make an effort at actual reporting. Rush and Fox do not.

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Response to HonEur12 (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 07:15 PM

41. You shouldn't... You are a Republican.

Now run along back to the clubhouse...

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Response to XRubicon (Reply #41)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 07:30 PM

43. who voted for Obama

the guy is making an honest effort to expose himself to a different point of view. What do people need to be so hostile?

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #43)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 08:18 PM

46. thank you

 

I know politics can be divisive, but I've learned more in the past hour than I have in my entire life about the democratic party. (Good things)

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Response to HonEur12 (Reply #46)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 08:25 PM

48. Maybe you could summarize what you learned here

Start by answering your own talking points. Tell how in one hour you changed your political and moral beliefs based on replies on an internet message board.

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Response to XRubicon (Reply #48)

Sun Dec 9, 2012, 04:06 PM

62. To start...

 

Guns - No one here really changed my mind about guns. I'm a law abiding gun owner who spent years getting paid to learn how to feel comfortable behind a trigger. Not many "thugs" robbing someone on the street can outshoot me (as mentioned in the most recent reply to this thread) and none of the weapons in my home have ever harmed anyone. I don't go out looking for a fight and I view carrying a Glock the sameway some of you look at carrying a fire extinguisher...but then again I never expected my views to change on that and in fact I learned many people even here on DU are gun guys...or at least realists. There just is no way to eliminate guns from society effectively, it'd be nice if there was.

Taxes - Lots of good points in here, namley that they are dues we require to live in the society we have. No taxes mean no road workers, no traffic signals, no law enforcement, no firefighters, etc. I mean, I understood all that but mainly it took some posts in here to understand that while a business might do better (and thus the economy) with lower taxes, we will ALL suffer (including those businesses) if there is rampant crime, no fire protection, and roads are destroying vehicles from lack of maitenance.

Affirmative action - Still, I'm not seeing how potential for racism equals the need for federal laws mandating quotas for minorities. However, I learned in this thread that "quotas" are not really quotas at all and are in fact a violation of Federal Law. Seems Rush's "they're giving your white man jobs away to minorities with no experience just to fill quotas" nonsense is...well, just that. Nonsense.

Birth control is a huge eye opener. This whole time I thought "Wow, women sold out for Obama because he offered them free birth control" when it should have been "Wow, Republicans practically outlaw abortion and then they want to take away a woman's ability to use her health insurance to procure birth control." I never viewed BC as "preventative care" until now. I always thought of it as something completely unrelated to healthcare. (Thanks Glenn Beck)

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Response to HonEur12 (Reply #62)

Sun Dec 9, 2012, 04:37 PM

65. I don't even want to know how Glenn Beck frames birth control.



Of course it is preventative. It prevents unwanted pregnancy.

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Response to XRubicon (Reply #41)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 12:40 AM

59. He is a republican who is trying to have dialog. I think his views are mis-directed, but

he is giving his views and inviting comment instead of doing what the denizens of some right wing sites do.

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Response to HonEur12 (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 07:15 PM

42. Point by point

1. Limbaugh and Beck and all their fans including your NRA buddies are lying to you. Gun regulations have relaxed under Obama's first term and there's no reason to believe this won't continue.

2. People who earn more also use much more of the infrastructure we all pay for. Who does a bloated military serve but the plutocrats, bases worldwide protecting their trade routes. Note I'm not talking about doctors, CPAs and other professional types who are upper middle class. I am talking about the truly wealthy, people who have grabbed enough for 1000 lifetimes and can think of nothing else but grabbing more.

3. Affirmative action has disporportionately helped white women, the main beneficiaries. Do you really want to see Pyour girlfriend pushed back into being a teacher, nurse, waitress, or secretary? Affirmative action widened her possibilities as well as giving hard working people of color a chance. Consider that it gets you through the door. Only hard work and competence will keep you there.

4. Birth control is absolutely basic to the health of women. To deny this is to be blind, ignorant and sexist in the extreme. It is also not free. It is being paid for through insurance premiums. Pregnancy and childbirth might be natural, but they are also life threatening. Get educated.

5. You're being lied to. Nobody with any sense wants to live like that. Get educated.

6. Profit driven health insurance has been a disaster, reducing access to care to the point that most people don't go to a doctor unless they are dying. This is wrong. It is also cruel and shortsighted and it's weakening the country.

7. You are being lied to. This was a trumped up false scandal and even Issa has had to admit that the target--Holder--had absolutely nothing to do with any of it. They censured him anyway because Republicans don't have any sense of justice or fairness. Get educated.

8. Lots of fat cats including the big banks are making a bundle on keeping them illegal. That's why.

I'm sure you could go on and on and on. There is a lot more to parrot from right wing dropouts who don't know a damned thing. However, if you want to remain here, you'll shut up and start to read and educate yourself.

Thanks for playing.

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Response to HonEur12 (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 07:30 PM

44. I don't care too much about guns

although I don't particularly like them, and have defended myself just fine in my fifty years without ever needing one - thank you very much.

I will go straight to taxes.

You should vote for Democrats because Republicans will vote to increase your taxes.

Plain and simple.

Take the flat tax (please).

1. It is said to be revenue neutral. That is, the flat tax brings in as much money as our current tax system.
2. It is clearly a big tax cut for those in the top 5%. That is, that rich group would pay less in total taxes.

3, therefore, with a flat tax, the bottom 95% must end up paying MORE in taxes. That must be true, if the first two are true.

With degrees in math and economics, I do fancy myself a bit of a tax expert.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/hfojvt/169

Thus, I calculated in 2008 that those with income over $200,000 would be paying an average of $112 billion less a year with a flat tax.

Which means that those making under $200,000 would be paying $112 billion more in order to achieve revenue neutrality.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/hfojvt/69

Unless you make more than $200,000 a year, most Republicans would increase YOUR taxes in order to cut taxes for those making MORE than $200,000 a year. They put your interests behind the interest of those much richer than you. http://www.koch2congress.com/

Why in the heck would you favor that?

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Response to HonEur12 (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 08:23 PM

47. This is very good.

 

Look at this, I'm posting on DU from my phone. Hell has frozen over.

Ive read all the posts so far but can't reply to all of them from here. I'll get to responding when I get back to my PC. (I'm very serious about wanting to see things from a different perspective. Some of the posts here have really thrown me for a loop. I feel like my entire life I've been lied to)

Edit: what's really changing my views are the replies about taxation. I was always under the impression that the more a business is taxed, the less profit it makes and the less likely it is to be successful.

In my mind, it makes sense. But reading your replies make sense too. They are contradictory. So how does taxing a business make it a better business? (Ignoring, of course the benefits higher taxes have for all of us as a community)

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Response to HonEur12 (Reply #47)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 10:34 PM

53. it's not about making it a better business

For myself, I worry less about corporate taxes than I do about individual taxes. Corporations have a lot of "perfectly legal" ways to avoid taxes.

Now some individuals are being taxed on their business income, and that CAN be quite onerous.

Take, for example, my own bookstore that I opened and ran for 7 years. In my ideal world, I would have been able to make a living at that.

Let's say "a living" is $12,340, which is what I made working at the satellite dish factory in 1994 (that was the full time job I worked to support my business in its 3rd year. Suppose instead of working two jobs, that I made that income from my store. Well, as a wage earner, I pay $944.01 in FICA taxes, but as a self employed person, I would pay $1,888.02 in FICA taxes, because I have to pay the employer side as well.

But that has nothing to do with things like the Bush tax cuts.

Now, if your business gives you more than $100,000 in income, then in my view it is not really "small". It is not gargantuan like a Wal-mart or even a Walgreens, but it isn't small like mine either.

Take the satellite dish factory where I worked. It had about 200 employees and was owned by John Kaul. I have no idea what his personal income was, but he did pretty good. One of my co-worers was commenting about how well he lived. But one thing about numbers is that if he even gave us a 10 cent an hour raise (which would be almost nothing) that would cost him $40,000 a year.

But let's say he's making $400,000 a year and thus gets nailed with those higher taxes that Obama is insisting upon (so far). First of all, he still gets to keep the Bush tax cuts on his first $250,000 in income. Which is a substantial savings. For a single person, the tax on $250,000 in AGI in 2001 was $76,564.75 in 2008 it was only $68,250.75 - $8,314 less. http://journals.democraticunderground.com/hfojvt/103

His taxes would go up by a mere $13,941.9m but still be $8,314 less than they were pre-Bush. And in the last ten years, he'd have gotten $222,550 in tax cuts.

Well, back in 1994, he paid more taxes than that on the same income. It is hardly gonna kill him to pay those taxes again. In fact, in some ways more taxes are an incentive to hire. I mean, I used to put in 50+ hour weeks at my business. Well, if my extra income is gonna be taxed away, then that is an incentive to hire somebody else to do the work. After all, if I pay them $30,000 a year, then that is money that I am not paying taxes on. The higher the tax rate, the greater the incentive. If, for example, the tax rate is 80% then it only costs me $6,000 to hire that new person, but if the tax rate is 30%, then it costs me $21,000 to hire that new person.

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Response to HonEur12 (Reply #47)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 12:48 AM

60. I learned in college that businesses only pay taxes on gross income.

I have never seen a case in practice since where that was not in fact the case. The more money a business makes after expenses, the more dollars it pays in taxes up to a level of 35%. A person making 3 billion dollars per year pays a maximum rate of ~35% on that income if no loopholes are used, a person making $300,000 per year likely pays the same rate, with the exception that the person making $3 billion can utilize loopholes that are not available to the person making $300,000.

I love paying more taxes because that means I am making more money.

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Response to bluestate10 (Reply #60)

Sun Dec 9, 2012, 04:28 PM

64. I think you probablty meant "net" income

but there is more than one way for you to pay more taxes.

One is by making more money.

The other is when the canaille elect liberals who will raise your tax rates, forcing you to pay more than 35%, especially if you start making a LOT more money.

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Response to HonEur12 (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 08:38 PM

49. Sir, 1% of this country's population controls 40% of its wealth (and 10% controls

 

80% of its wealth).

I'm assuming you are not part of that 1% (or even 10%).

So I'd like to ask you which party you think represents the 90% of this country that controls only 20% of the wealth? Do you think the Republicans for one second give a shit about anything or anyone you hold dear?

IMO, you are allowing a plague of charlatans to front a host of non-essential issues, in order to deceive you into voting in a way that does not support your economic self interest.

You should vote Democratic to support your economic self interest.

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Response to HonEur12 (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 09:32 PM

51. My #1 issue is abortion rights, also. So I will just say this. If your girlfriend (who may have

 

already pointed this out to you but it can never be said enough, IMO) became pregnant and needed an abortion to preserve her health, almost all Republicans believe in denying her that right. If she needed an abortion to save her life, a large portion of Republicans believe she should die.

If that isn't enough to distill the issues into one very simple matter of life and death, I don't know what would.

Please keep listening to your girlfriend.

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Response to HonEur12 (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 09:38 PM

52. Alot of misinformation in one post

Guns, a bogus issue if there ever was one. There simply is no effective drive to regulate guns, anywhere in either party. I might prefer that there was one, but there isn't.

Taxes, It is really this simple, taxes are not punishment, they are the dues we pay to live in a more or less civilized society. It is our patriotic duty to pay them. Flat taxes are bogus. Why does it make sense to collect taxes from people below the poverty line, only to end up giving the money back to subsidize their housing and feed their kids. We are doing this now and it simply does not make sense. Progressive taxation runs back to the very founding of this country. In particular it was intended that taxes be applied to estates to prevent an inherited permanent upper class, or financial royalty. It was sound thinking then and remains sound today.

Properly understood "affirmative action" is simply what it states. You take "affirmative actions" to assure that all opportunities are available equally. It actually means that you post job openings in the usual places, but also take the additional step of specifically posting them in places where minority candidates are more likely to find them. There is nothing in current law that requires that anyone hire less than the most qualified candidate. Quotas are illegal and have been for quite some time. As a hiring supervisor, I have been trained in the fine points of "affirmative action" under current law and precedent.

Viagra is in fact covered for men, so birth control should be covered for women. Simple enough?

Environmental Protection, this is my field professionally. You are spouting an utter crock of nonsense. You can find a handful of earth firsters out there that might vaguely resemble what you describe, but no professional in the field that I have met comes even close. We are generally happy to be allowed to stop people from poisoning each other, and destroying lakes, rivers, and streams. There is still plenty of work to be done there, just to accomplish that.

The right to healthcare is really simple too. Back in the day there were these things called plagues. Lots and lots of people died because they caught bad stuff from those who did not have access to medicine. We are all better off when we are all more healthy. Secondly, there is this damn oath the doctors take where they will treat anyone who shows up sick, whether they can pay or not. When they can't pay, guess what, you do. However, because they have no access to preventive care, they show up at the emergency room really, really sick, and cost a ton of money to help. Now if we start paying for a little bit of preventive care, it happens to turn out that we will save a ton of money. It is simply a pay me a little now, or a lot more later deal. You might think we could go with a "if you can't pay, just die in the gutter" plan, but we won't. The Dr.s will not do it, and besides, stepping over the sick and dying on the way to work will prove politically unpopular.

The whole "fast and furious" conspiracy is right wing fantasy land bs. Once again, there is no effective plan or movement to regulate guns in either party, it does not exist.

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Response to HonEur12 (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 11:52 PM

54. From where you come from

 

You can see it also this way: while R has gone into wacko lala-land and kicked out Libertarians, "Third Way" D has been moving right into positions where R used to be (to the chagrin of most Underground DUers - lot's of de facto socialists on this forum).

I'm not American, don't like any corrupt corporate party, but I like the people on this forum.

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Response to HonEur12 (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 12:04 AM

55. My response to each of your points.


1. Guns and self defense - This is pretty much my "single issue voter" bumper sticker. I view the right to self defense (anywhere, not just at my house) as paramount to living in a free society. Why should I have to "flee" if someone is trying to rob or attack me while I'm minding my business out on a date? I say this as someone who has actually pulled (although not fired) his firearm on two attackers late at night. If I did not have my Glock that night, what might have happened? Now the two scumbags are in jail.
-What I see: Democrats support all of the amendments to the Bill of Rights except the 2nd. Why are they all so inherently sacred but the one that protects all of the rest is demonetized? How many cases has the ACLU defended the right to free speech, freedom of religion in? What about the right to bear arms? There is quite a difference. The democrats want to ban assault weapons, but when large scale riots kick off (like they did in my city in 1996) a hunting rifle is not going to protect you like an "assault rifle" will. And lets be serious, who thinks if another assault weapons ban is signed that the gangsters and criminals with them in their possession right now are going to turn them in? I know I'll turn mine in, but I'll never commit a crime with them. And crime rates have gone down, especially with assault weapons, since the bans sunset in 1994 (its all over the internet). Crime rates have also gone down in state's that have implemented shall-issue concealed carry laws. It seems a little odd for "progressives" to go back-wards and undue laws that reduce crime?

There are gun owning members here on DU. There is a forum on this site for discussion of guns and gun issues. I am not a gun owner. I don't care whether people have guns of any caliber as long as they have them registered and report any that are stolen to police, police would appreciate that. I go out at night without fear. If I met someone that wanted to rob me, I would give them money nd a watch if they asked. I avoid problem by paying attention to where I go, I stay away from locations where problems are common and if out late at night, insure that the location that park has cameras and security and is patrolled by cops. On the two instances where you showed a gun or drew a gun on two criminals, you are lucky that they were scumbags instead of killers. A killer would never have given you a chance to show a gun, his finger would have been on his trigger with the safety off - he would have killed or seriously injured you and likely your girlfriend - and he would have likely done that with an illegal gun.

2. Taxes. I don't pay much in taxes, but one day I hope to earn enough where it matters. Why should we punish those who earn more? There should be a flat tax system. Speaking of the fiscal cliff, isn't this just the expiration of the Bush tax cuts? Why are all the Democrats that were opposed to the Bush Tax Cuts now opposed to the tax increases? We're just going back to the days of Clinton (which were good, economically) what's the big deal? Also, forgive me, this may be a little Glenn Beck speaking. (I can't get that point out of my head)

I earn enough to pay as much in taxes as many people earn. I benefited from Pell Grants and low interest student loans. I don't mind paying taxes for several reasons, first I make enough to pay taxes and live well - the more I make the more taxes I pay, but I also live even better. Taxes are a cost effective form of personal protection for me, I pay taxes so that schools can educate the young and cops can deal with the young that fall through the cracks. If I allowed society to become every person for himself or herself, I could not afford to pay for personal protection and also have a good lifestyle. My example may sound silly to you, but stop and think of what happens if there was not a progressive tax system and a person like me paid a flat tax - any flat tax ever proposed would save thousands of dollars for me per year, but I still could not pay for personal protection for anything that a few hours per day, for maybe 6 months of the year - I get left with too much exposure. To use you Glock example, I would have to take a Glock with me for half of each year and for all of each day or most of each day - I will encounter desperate people that will also have guns and want things that I own - I would be lucky to live for one year because I won't be able to outgun everyone that I come upon - Billy The Kid couldn't, why should I expect better luck.

3. Race - Affirmative action seems detrimental to everything the US stands for. Sure, racism still exists. I get that. But the President of the United States is black. Are we really going to say that minorities can't succeed in America without special rules? Maybe its the military in me - but I believe in a meritocracy. Everyone is judged based on ability only. If you can't perform, you don't get the job. It doesn't matter what color you are. When you start setting quotas, you open up an entirely new can of worms. This is just how I see it guys, remember. I'm not instigating anything.

You are probably not a racist. But do you put your foot down hard when you witness discrimination against a woman, a Black, an Hispanic, an Asian? When we don't have racism in society, then we won't need a system to correct for racism. I am intolerant to racism because I consider racist actions to be a drag on efficient use of people's talents, regardless of whether the victims look like me or not. I challenge you to start challenging your friends when they use racist language or short change a person because of their race, when you do that, then we will be one person closer to getting rid of affirmative action laws.

4. Sex - My girlfriend has opened my eyes a little bit to this, wage disparities especially. But I see the Democrats catering to women by giving them special treatment. Free birth control? Doesn't seem that free. The insurance companies are just going to make everyone pay for birth control now with their premium increases. That doesn't seem very fair.

Birth control IS NOT FREE. Get that out of your head. Ask your girlfriend and you female friends that use birth control how much they pay for their pills. Insurance is a way of leveraging needs of one class of the insured. For example, a person that has a history of heart disease in his or her family leverage to likelihood that he or she will need expensive treatment against the probability that a person with no family history of heart disease won't need expensive treatment and will thus, in a collective, help pay for the insured that does need expensive treatment. I am a youngish man in a health-care plan that covers families and lots of elderly people, my use of the plan seldom go past a physical each year, some of the families spend a lot more as does some of the elderly, I am ok with those dynamics because having any of those people struggling reduces my humanity - also, my having insurance protects me against serious injury, which could happen to any of us at any time. Back to birth control - a woman that gets BC pills at reduced rates actually saves society money by taking those pills - the cost of childbirth and childcare is enormous, if a woman can't afford those costs, the rest of society WILL pay them, either through social welfare, of jailing angry children that become criminals BC pills are incredibly cost effective relative to any other option.

5. Environmental protection - I think I agree with many democrats that the EPA has done good things for America. I couldn't even imagine what this country would look like without regulations on big businesses and laws against chemical spills. But it seems that some Democrats want to take that even further, like they want us to live in the jungle in wooden huts or something where the only thing burning is weed while we sit around and share communal food. I think capitalism has a vested interest in keeping the forests stocked with trees, because if we used all the trees for lumber then the sellers wouldn't be able to make anymore money. Am I wrong here? (Please, by all means, if I am tell me)

Some people on the Left go over the top on some environmental issues. I am a capitalist, but you give capitalists too much credit. One capitalist that wants cleared land often does not care about protecting trees because that gets in the way of making money. My sense is that the EPA and state environmental agencies have actually been favorable to capitalist activity - in some cases, those agencies had just the right policy, in some cases, policy was not strong enough, in some cases, policy was mis-targeted and too heavy handed.

6. Health care - I heard this girl at school the other day say "Everyone has the right to health-care". I would love everyone to have affordable health care for sure, but how can one have the "right" to anything that depends on the hard work and expense of others? Rights, in my view, are things that can never ever be taken away from you. Things like self defense, free speech, freedom of thought, etc. If all of the doctors refuse to give you treatment, or you're ill and there are no health care facilities around...how do you still have that right?

I think the term right in regard to health-care is often misused by the right and the left. The fact is, if a person has a heart attack, doctors will attempt to save that person regardless of whether the person can pay. The same dynamic exists for a person that has cancer or a variety of other deadly ailments. I am a member of a private, proactive health care plan. My plan places a premium on preventative care because that is a lot less costly the chronic care. My plan works to keep me well and push me to work with it. Health care reform is focuses on making the balance from chronic care to preventative care, that transition is a dollars and cents advantage for governments and private insurers, it simply costs a lot less to prevent a heart attack, or treat cancer early than it costs to treat a person who walks in to an emergency room in a chronic condition. The fact of the matter is, you pay NOW for other people's care when they can't pay, health care reform will have you paying LESS because of the size of bills. I live in the only state in the Union that has a mandatory health insurance requirement, I declare my insured status every year at tax time. My state has 95% or adults and 99% of children insured - my state also is one of the healthiest in the nation and has the lowest health care costs for state residents. I live in a state with excellent medical schools and health facilities, we have people from all over the world and the country coming here for chronic care - if one looked at average bills there is some distortion because of the fact that I just gave, but for state residents, we have among the lowest health care premiums in the country and those premiums are declining.

7. Fast and Furious - Seems to me the idea was to stir up cries for gun laws due to southern states being affected by Mexican drug cartels but it backfired when they lost track of all the guns. This is what Rush told me, anyway. (30 hours a week of Beck and Limbaugh, cut me some slack please!)

Do you really understand what happened in Fast and Furious, or are you just repeating what Hannity or Beck spewed out? What happened in Arizona is that state has a law that says a person can buy as many guns as they want WITHOUT a background and officials can only intervene IF they witness those people exchanging the guns, ie, giving them to criminals. The ATF was powerless to intervene in Arizona, so guns walked from gun shops to criminals - the FEDs DIDN'T sell guns to criminals, they simply were in a situation where they had NO choice but to let guns walk in the hope of finding them before they were used in a crime. Arizona's gun laws caused the border agent to get killed. What is needed is a stronger hand to Federal agents to stop people that purchase lots of guns, or require that states like Arizona do background checks on people that are buying guns.


Welcome to DU. Hopefully you will stay around long enough so that we can help your girlfriend beat some sense into your head.


I can go on, but these are a few issues off of the top of my head. I just don't know what the reaction to this post is going to be and I don't want to spend hours and hours on it if its going to be deleted within minutes.

I really hope this thread isn't locked/deleted as "trolling". I'm spending a good amount of time on it and really trying to reiterate that I'm not here to stir up trouble. I just want to know what the Democratic party has to offer me. I see the Democrats making gestures to all of these groups, but nothing that really benefits me. I'm not saying the Republicans benefit me either. But they seem more gun-friendly than the Democrats, so thats how I make my decision.

As far as the 2012 election went, I was a bit perplexed. There was only one man on the ballot who had signed assault weapons legislation, and he had an (R) next to his name; one man had signed pro-gun legislation and he had a (D) next to his name. What kind of twist is that?

Edit: There's a ton of more issues I'll be posting here as I think of them. After reading here, the issue of

8: Drug use - Legalize everything. Why is it that they were able to figure out Prohibition didn't work in <20 years, but we've had drugs outlawed for over a century and no progress is made whatsoever? I say this as someone who has never, ever used and illegal drug, and despises them (I grew up with them, and know what they do to someone)

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Response to HonEur12 (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 08:47 AM

61. Kick

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Response to HonEur12 (Original post)

Sun Dec 9, 2012, 04:23 PM

63. the election was a month ago, dude

eom

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Response to HonEur12 (Original post)

Sun Dec 9, 2012, 05:03 PM

66. Another thought on taxes for you.

As far as cutting taxes on the wealthy - that does not help the economy one iota. People don't hire because they have cash laying around, they hire because they have work that needs to be done.

Demand drives the economy, not supply. That is the whole problem in a nutshell - back in the 1980's there was a school of thought called "supply side economics" that sold everyone on the idea that if you concentrate the transfer of wealth to the top, those at the top will create jobs with it and it will "trickle down" to everyone else. Guess what - that was a MISERABLE failure. Those at the top didn't create jobs, they looked for even higher profits and started outsourcing the jobs overseas where they can pay $.50 an hour to someone in a call center or manning a sewing machine. The only "trickle down" we here in the US felt was them pissing on our legs as the boats left port with dismantled factories and call center phone systems, headed for asia.

Henry Ford made a huge splash back in the 1940s by paying WAY more than his competitors. Ford Motor workers were earning incredible wages. When asked about it, his response to that decision was that "he wanted his workers to be able to afford his products". Today, we are in the opposite situation - hundreds of thousands of people shop at Walmart because they work at Walmart, and with shortened hours, no benefits, and 47% their employee base is on food stamps and other welfare programs - they can't afford to shop anywhere else.

Here's a quiz. Give Walmart a tax break, are they going to:

A. Raise wages and move people to full time so they qualify for benefits

B. Send large dividend checks to their shareholders in the hopes that more people become shareholders


When you build an economy from the bottom up as opposed to the top down, something called a "multiplier effect" kicks in and the entire economy begins to grow. Here is an example of how that works:

Man goes on vacation and rents a hotel room. He gives the proprietor $100 for the night and leaves to go sight seeing. Proprietor pays the housekeeping employee $100 for her wages. Housekeeping takes the $100 to the grocery store and buys food. Grocery store takes the $100 and orders produce from the farmer. The farmer takes the $100 and buys more seed. Etc Etc Etc...


This is called velocity of money - how many times something happens when $1 is introduced into the economy. All of these people got paid and all of these economic activities took place - all from the original seed money.

For each $1 in tax cuts, it adds $0.63 to the economy (negative multiplier). The top accelerators are Unemployment Insurance (at about $1.20 for every $1 spent) and Food Stamps (at about $1.65 for every $1 spent) because they circulate. Tax refunds do not.

Republicans are still stuck in "supply side" mode, even though economists have been screaming for a decade that it was a FAILURE and that trickle down formula is lower taxes. Its. All. They. Know.

Until we as a society realize that you have to build from the bottom up (and prime the pump - through that dreaded word, "stimulus") we are not going to get the money into the economy to start flowing (multiplying). You try to "stimulate" the top and it just gets parked. As a % of income, poor people spend close to 100% of their income (living paycheck to paycheck) where the rich spend only a fraction.

Make sense?

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Response to HonEur12 (Original post)

Sun Dec 9, 2012, 05:20 PM

67. You should not vote for Democrats.

If those are your actual positions, you aren't a Democrat and its unlikely you will ever vote for one.

In fact, if those are your positions, you might be better suited to start your own branch of the Tea Party. Much of your framing comes straight from them.

As for your items, my responses, by number:

1. Guns and self: Standard Tea Party stuff ... Dems are coming to take your guns and DEMONIZE the 2nd amendment. Not true, but many on the Tea Party think its true.

2. Taxes. A couple things. (a) Many of us would be fine if all the Bush tax cuts expired. Mut we are also ok if only those on the top 2% expire, why? Because during the recent recession, the top 2% is the only group who still increased their networth. The other 98% did not increase their networth during the recession. (b) Do you think it is "fair" that a guy who delivers furniture, and makes 50k doing so, pays more tax on that 50k, than Paris Hilton pays on Dividend interest. The current tax rates penalize WORK and protect wealth. Which means you are STILL paying a higher rate on your income that Paris Hilton pays on her dividend income. Sound fair?

3. Race - The fact that the President is black does not stop a small business owner from hiring black workers. Does not stop banks from not loaning to black families. One thing the election of Obama has shown is that racism is still alive and well. The Tea Party displays it on a regular basis. Electing Obama pulled the band-aid off the wound. And the racists have been howling ever since.

4. Sex - How concerned are you about coverage and costs for Viagra? Suspect this has not crossed your mind.

5. Environmental protection - Yes, you are wrong here.

6. Healthcare - If you get hurt, the ambulance comes, period. They rush you to the hospital. And they save your life.

7. Fast and Furious - More Tea Party nonsense.

So again ... sounds like you are in the wrong place ... start or join a tea party group. They agree with you on most of this.

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Response to JoePhilly (Reply #67)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 08:58 AM

68. Very good points.

 

I guess I should just go back in time and take my vote for Obama back. I'm obviously an ignorant troglodyte who's not trying to educate himself.

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Response to HonEur12 (Reply #68)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 09:07 AM

70. A real response would go point by point, as I did.

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Response to HonEur12 (Original post)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 09:05 AM

69. Why is it "punishment" to pay higher taxes when you earn more?

If a person has that much money, it does not make a difference on a survival-level. And that person has benefitted from society to a higher degree. Why do they consider it "punishment" to acknowledge that. If that's "punishment" I'll take it. You still have a lot more money left at that point than some people have ever.

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Response to HonEur12 (Original post)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 10:17 AM

71. Sigh.

1. No one wants to take away yer guns. You think Democrats don't own them? Never at all understood this canard.

2. Don't take this the wrong way, but the "Success Punishing" meme is fucking stupid. What we're doing with the wealthy in this country is light years of light years away from what could be considered "punishment". Flat/Fair tax is a Neal Boortz idea. Do some searching above, there's a giant thread on the old DU I was involved in explaining in detail why this idea is ridiculous, penalizes the poor and lets the rich off even better than they are being let off now. Idle wealthy conservatives are super in favor of it.

3. You need to get out more often. People with masters degrees are getting laid off through no fault of their own. Did they not "work hard enough"?

4. What's the problem?

5. Everyone has their extremists, but man-made global warming is for reals, yo, and we need to deal with it before nature deals with us.

6. How, exactly, do you think for-profit health insurance works? Healthcare is a goddamned unwaverable human right, END OF SENTENCE.

7. 30 hours a week? There's the first problem right off the bat.

8. I can agree with that, except I don't see how it stops a black market.

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Response to HonEur12 (Original post)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 11:00 AM

72. So as you are pushing RW memes why should we not regard you as a troll?

Point 1 - Neither the President nor Congress is pushing for changes to state gun laws. There is a push for responsible ownership because, for example, your right to protect yourself should not also be given to a madman who thinks that "chemtrails" threaten him and so goes hunting airline pilots. There are some Democratic voters and politicians supporting even firmer controls because the evidence from every other country is that gun control works to reduce violence.

Point 2 - you really don't understand progressive taxation. Learn how the tax system works then you might be taken seriously. Your arguments here show you to be a troll

Point 3 - Affirmative action works. Whites are still massively privileged by comparison to other races. This is the exact argument a RW racist shill makes.

Point 4 - Sex, by which you seem to mean birth control. You seem ignorant of the fact that birth control is actually a hormone treatment and is used by many for that purpose. Birth control also means that the massively expensive business of pregnancy and birth is not born by poor demented Republicans, Libertarians or the Tea-bagged. You also ignore the fact that Viagra and Cialis (boner pills) would also be covered. But the best reason for allowing an assisted health service is the disgusting ineptitude of the US health system which only allows you to be healthy if you are wealthy.

Point 5 - You agree with the EPA; except when you do not. It is obvious that you are attempting to set up an argument about controls to CO2 emissions. Well guess what? Anthropogenic Global Warming is a fact and it is caused by CO2 emissions and all your denials and concern will not change that fact.

Point 6- Check out the French or the Japanese healthcare systems. Healthcare can be affordable, indeed it can be free. Here, in the Socialist Hell Hole (TM) of the UK, my partner has had operations for a cancerous thyroid, a sarcoma in her leg, decompression of both shoulder joints and continued medication for type 1 diabetes, depression and hypothyroidism. Total cost nothing (zero, zilch, nada, nichts, zip, squat, diddly). If everyone in the USA could pay the government to produce and maintain the interstate system, the internet and subsidise telephone and power distribution why can't they help pay for a decent health system?

Point 7 - Fast and Furious; an operation begun under Bush and which RW loons like you try to put onto Holder and President Obama. See also point 1

You are a RW concern troll and I hope you are PPRed rapidly

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Response to HonEur12 (Original post)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 11:02 AM

73. You've got a lot to learn, but I hope you do.

Unfortunately, I think you've been conditioned by the right wing talking heads and that's a lot of bullshit to deal with here. I hear a lot of strawmen from you that have been repeated ad nauseum by Rush Limbaugh and the like.

You seem most preoccupied on the gun issue. What else can I say except very few Democrats and liberals want a total ban on all guns. They simply want reasonable restrictions on sales, licensing, waiting periods, allowable types of weapons, where they can be carried, etc. Personally, I'm not going to knock anyone if they have a pistol in their home in a safe and secure location for self-protection. I'm a little uneasy about CCW but that's a subject for debate. It's when people who have serious mental problems are allowed to legally purchase weapons capable of holding high capacity clips without so much as a sneeze where I have a real issue. But the NRA controls the debate and any attempt to discuss any regulation of weapons by calling anyone who dares breach the subject a "gun grabber" or "prohibitionist." Sadly--as you learn--we can't even have that debate on here, a liberal message board.

Taxes are not punishment. They are a matter of paying one's fair proportional share as part of living in a civilized society. No one is being punished for making a lot of money, they simply are being asked to chip in a proper part of what they make so that everyone, including those rich people, continue to benefit. A tax system geared towards the consumer middle class benefits everyone. A tax system geared toward the benefit of the very top, such as a flat tax system, cannot sustain itself. Trickle down is a farce. And flat taxes are woefully unfair on the lower income earners who must give a greater share of their income than those who make a lot.

Regarding race, affirmative action is not quotas. The idea that a lesser qualified minority is hired over a more qualified caucasian simply due to race alone is a fiction served to you by the RW blabber mouths. Affirmative action simply means race can be one factor among many to be considered in hiring or admission. Take it like this: If I have a minority candidate and a white candidate, both with equal qualifications, and minorities are greatly underrepresented in my company or my school, I have no problem with choosing the minority based on that additional factor above the basic qualifications.

Greater access to contraception means less selective abortions. To me, everybody wins in that scenario. If only the stubborn minded leaders of my church were able to pull their heads out their collective asses to realize that simple fact instead of creating non-existent controversies......

Regarding environmental protection, the idea that enviromnetalists want you to live in trees or only ride bikes is another Rush parrot point. Environmentalists are actually the most forward thinking, progress oriented people out there. They don't want to be tied to old non-renewable sources of energy. They want to develop new, cheap, clean and ultra efficient means of renewable sources of energy. The ones stuck in the past are the people in the oil and coal industries who don't want to change and want us stuck with energy sources that are both dirty and finite. Again, turn off the Rush.

And healthcare is a right. Period. There is no reason why a rich person should have access to a life saving medical operation and a poor person should not. If you don't understand that, better check your soul. (Not to mention that not all rich people are rich because of "hard work." Paris Hilton, anyone?)

Fast and the Furious is a manufactured scandal. So is Bengazi. The republicans desperately want anything to try to bring a Democratic president down, no matter how baseless. It's why they impeached a popular Democratic president over a white lie about a personal matter in an irrelevant line of questioning in a politically motivated lawsuit.

As to drugs, I'm a bit of a moderate on that issue compared to some others here. As to marijuana, I'm for legalization for legitimate medical use and decriminalization for recreational use. I don't see any benefit, however, into legalizing harder drugs such as heroin, cocaine or meth. I do think that as it relates to users of those drugs, the emphasis should be on treatment and not punishment.

It's sad that you've let your position on guns govern your vote. There is one issue (I don't feel the need to mention which one) where my beliefs fall outside the typical Democratic/liberal zeitgeist (although I don't think they fall in the Republican/conservative catagory either), but I don't let that govern my vote. Don't be a slave to single issue voting. Don't vote against your own best interest.

Good night and good luck! Hope we help you on the right track!

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Response to HonEur12 (Original post)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 11:03 AM

74. Legalize Lonnie Anderson's Hair.

(1) Do
(2) It
(3) Now
(4) And
(5) Like
(6) It

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Response to HonEur12 (Original post)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 11:49 AM

75. Read the 1956 Republican Party Platform.

If you agree with many of those views on labor, the environment, social services & business regulations join us in pushing the Democrats to the left to match them.

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