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Tue Dec 4, 2012, 07:04 AM

FoxNews.com Columnist Attacks Bob Costas For Correctly Drawing Connection Between Guns And Murder

Addressing the murder-suicide involving Kansas City Chiefs linebacker Jovan Belcher, discredited gun researcher John Lott downplayed the relationship between firearm availability and the incidence of murder in a FoxNews.com column. Lott took issue with NBC sportscaster Bob Costas discussing the tragedy during halftime on Sunday Night Football. Quoting FoxSports.com columnist Jason Whitlock, Costas said, "If Jovan Belcher didn't possess a gun, he and Kasandra Perkins would both be alive today."

Lott disputed that the presence of a firearm had anything to do with the murder-suicide, writing, "Even if no weapon existed, the strength differential is so large that Belcher could have easily killed Perkins in any number of ways."

Lott's attempt to take guns out of the equation was the latest effort by right-wing media to silence the discussion of gun violence in the wake of Saturday's murder-suicide. It is also at odds with research about the relationship between gun availability and gun violence.

As Forbes contributor Rob Waters noted, the presence of a firearm drastically increases the lethality of domestic violence incidents. Using statistics compiled by the Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence, Waters wrote that, "If a gun is used during a domestic violence assault, there's a 23-fold increased likelihood that the victim will die. Women who are victims of domestic violence are five times more likely to be killed if their abuser owns a firearm."

http://mediamatters.org/blog/2012/12/03/foxnewscom-columnist-attacks-bob-costas-for-cor/191652

63 replies, 10017 views

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Arrow 63 replies Author Time Post
Reply FoxNews.com Columnist Attacks Bob Costas For Correctly Drawing Connection Between Guns And Murder (Original post)
onehandle Dec 2012 OP
DanTex Dec 2012 #1
jody Dec 2012 #2
Shankapotomus Dec 2012 #6
jody Dec 2012 #7
morningfog Dec 2012 #33
UnrepentantLiberal Dec 2012 #37
Whovian Dec 2012 #39
Jazzgirl Dec 2012 #42
CreekDog Dec 2012 #57
gollygee Dec 2012 #59
CreekDog Dec 2012 #60
phleshdef Dec 2012 #62
Little Star Dec 2012 #27
Shankapotomus Dec 2012 #3
Logical Dec 2012 #4
dballance Dec 2012 #5
jody Dec 2012 #10
dballance Dec 2012 #19
Shankapotomus Dec 2012 #28
morningfog Dec 2012 #34
oneshooter Dec 2012 #40
OriginalGeek Dec 2012 #58
sarisataka Dec 2012 #45
dballance Dec 2012 #46
sarisataka Dec 2012 #51
dballance Dec 2012 #55
Shankapotomus Dec 2012 #8
Logical Dec 2012 #12
Shankapotomus Dec 2012 #14
Logical Dec 2012 #15
Shankapotomus Dec 2012 #18
ananda Dec 2012 #9
jody Dec 2012 #11
onehandle Dec 2012 #20
Tommy_Carcetti Dec 2012 #32
Union Scribe Dec 2012 #38
Tommy_Carcetti Dec 2012 #47
Berserker Dec 2012 #13
RC Dec 2012 #16
onehandle Dec 2012 #23
dballance Dec 2012 #24
morningfog Dec 2012 #35
madokie Dec 2012 #17
Paladin Dec 2012 #22
madokie Dec 2012 #26
ProgressiveProfessor Dec 2012 #21
Arcanetrance Dec 2012 #25
Hoyt Dec 2012 #29
DemocratSinceBirth Dec 2012 #30
JaneyVee Dec 2012 #31
morningfog Dec 2012 #36
wtmusic Dec 2012 #43
barbtries Dec 2012 #48
wtmusic Dec 2012 #49
barbtries Dec 2012 #50
wtmusic Dec 2012 #52
barbtries Dec 2012 #53
wtmusic Dec 2012 #54
Romulox Dec 2012 #41
Marinedem Dec 2012 #44
phleshdef Dec 2012 #63
bongbong Dec 2012 #56
apocalypsehow Dec 2012 #61

Response to onehandle (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 07:33 AM

1. Exactly. What Costas said shouldn't be controversial.

He is basically just repeating what social scientists and public health researchers have repeatedly in study after study. The problem is, the wingnuts at FOX News don't believe in science, and believe that gun violence, like global warming and evolution, is just a matter of opinion.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #1)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 07:43 AM

2. Costas blames the "gun culture" but BJS reports black offender rate is 7 times white rate. Since

 

both had the same access to the "gun culture", Costas should ask whether the "race culture" is not the real cause.

Homicide Trends in the U.S. at http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/homicide/race.cfm

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Response to jody (Reply #2)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 08:02 AM

6. I think that graph

has less to do with race and more to do with culture. The reason African American gun violence is higher is not because of race but because a higher percentage of a particular race, are subjected to that CULTURE. Follow me? A culture if poverty, a culture excluded from the same benefits and respect of White culture. I would suspect statistics would show if you put people of any race into that kind of oppressed culture, violence statistics will rise.

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Response to Shankapotomus (Reply #6)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 08:08 AM

7. I used the same descriptors that BJS did. Costas used "gun culture" whatever that is so there should

 

be a "black culture" and "white culture".

On the other hand Costas may be ill informed on the topic about which he writes.

BJS statistics are either valid for use both in attacking and defending the unalienable right to keep and bear arms for self defense or they are useless for both purposes.

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Response to jody (Reply #2)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 10:14 AM

33. That graph has nothing to do with "race culture."

Trying to make it so is racist. That graph shows the effects of poverty. What a shameful use of that data you are putting forth.

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Response to jody (Reply #2)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 10:22 AM

37. You didn't include this graph.

 

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Response to jody (Reply #2)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 10:25 AM

39. Seem to be showing your true COLORS with this post.

 

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Response to Whovian (Reply #39)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 10:38 AM

42. That's kinda what I thought too Whovian.

n/t

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Response to jody (Reply #2)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 04:01 PM

57. you're anti-black today, anti-union yesterday

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #57)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 04:15 PM

59. What?

Is he talking about indentured servitude? I've never seen that suggested even by anti-union people before.

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Response to gollygee (Reply #59)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 04:18 PM

60. he's trying to make unions seem like a prison

even though there's no truth to that --the truth is immaterial.

same with him attempting to say that it's not gun culture to blame when he's saying that it's the minority culture that's killing. him saying that doesn't surprise me, it's that he's been saying this kind of stuff for almost a decade here that's surprising.

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Response to jody (Reply #2)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 04:19 PM

62. Its not the race culture. Its the poverty culture.

And more black folks happen to live in the poverty culture for reasons that shouldn't even have to be explained to you (ie, they are only a generation or so into living with full civil rights and equal access to opportunities).

Regardless, insatiable gun humping has brought us to the point of rejecting many REASONABLE avenues of gun control. The second amendment was never meant to be the manifesto for a cult of paranoia and thats exactly what the gun humping zealots have turned it into.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #1)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 09:42 AM

27. Costas was also quoting Fox Sports commentator Jason Whitlock. n/t

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Response to onehandle (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 07:49 AM

3. Plus the energy required to pull a trigger

is far less than the energy required to beat someone to death yet the damage in proportion to the energy exerted is far more deadly with a firearm. You can be tired and still kill someone by shooting them. Whereas, in cases without a firearm, the victim has a better chance of surviving violence when the attacker doesn't have the energy or will to perform the physical operations necessary to result in death. A gun makes it much easier to achieve that result.

I think that's a pretty open and shut statistic for instituting gun control laws.

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Response to Shankapotomus (Reply #3)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 07:53 AM

4. What laws would have prevented this??? I will be waiting!

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Response to Logical (Reply #4)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 07:57 AM

5. Don't hold your breath

You'll be turning blue and passing out before any laws get enacted. And even if laws get passed it's a sure bet the NRA will fight them in court and win a lot of the time because of the overly broad and incorrect reading of the 2nd Amendment by just about everyone.

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Response to dballance (Reply #5)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 08:10 AM

10. Please explain the "incorrect reading" to which you refer. nt

 

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Response to jody (Reply #10)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 09:12 AM

19. Okay, here it is.

The NRA and Pro-Gun people seem to read the 2nd Amendment as prohibiting any restrictions on gun ownership. Even Scalia has implied this is not true. The 2nd Amendment was written at a time when we had no standing army and, in fact, the founders really were afraid of establishing a standing army because it might become a de facto branch of government without it really being authorized. Seems their worst fears have come true.

Historically, the 2nd Amendment was meant to allow state militias to exist with guns to defend from the possible tyranny of an overly zealous federal government. Just as the colonies had parted with the King because of his taxing policies. It was not meant as a blank check for any and everyone to have semi-automatic weapons with hundred-round magazines. Rifles and hand-guns at the time the 2nd Amendment was written were rather difficult weapons to load and fire. It took time to pack in the powder, the wad and the ball in either type of weapon. One could not kill several people in the blink of an eye using the then-current weapons.

If you want to go with the Scalia type of interpretation of the constitution and base it on what the founders meant at the time they wrote it then all the semi-automatic hand-guns and all the advanced rifles like the AK-47 would not be allowed to be in the hands of private citizens because they didn't exist at the time the 2nd Amendment was written. Therefore, the Constitution does not apply to them.

So when the NRA uses the text of the 2nd Amendment to justify anyone having any kind of gun they are really being a bit disingenuous by ignoring the historical context surrounding it.

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Response to dballance (Reply #19)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 09:43 AM

28. Under the NRS's interpretation can I own a tank?

I don't want to own a tank, or even a gun, but I want to know how just how silly the gun nutters are getting.

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Response to Shankapotomus (Reply #28)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 10:17 AM

34. Well, if they follow Scalia (which they do), you could have up to a RPG.

A rocket propelled grenade or shoulder mounted anti-tank weapon would fit in their interpretation. That analysis rests on the right to "bear arms," suggesting it must be able to be held. You can't bear a tank.

Unfortunately for the rabid-gun-lovers, they would be limited to RPGs.

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Response to Shankapotomus (Reply #28)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 10:28 AM

40. Tanks and other armored vehicles are legal to own.

That being said the armament of the vehicle requires special permits from the BATFE.
I am currently rebuilding a British Ferret armored scout car from the 1960's.

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Response to Shankapotomus (Reply #28)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 04:12 PM

58. My cousin has 2

He went to England and bought 3 and sold the third one for enough to pay for his trip and the 2 he kept.

It might take him a while to restore them but they are real and workable tanks. Smaller than you might think though.

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Response to dballance (Reply #19)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 11:21 AM

45. Can the government

Limit your speech on the internet?

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Response to sarisataka (Reply #45)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 11:30 AM

46. As a matter of fact I believe yes

I don't think the 1st Amendment is anymore of a blank check for absolutely any sort of speech than I think the 2nd Amendment is a blank check for absolutely any sort of gun ownership.

If you believe otherwise I think you're being overly literal with regard to the text of the amendments and completely unreasonable in the face of reality.

I don't think we do enough to curb hate speech or other disgusting utterances because everyone yells "1st Amendment." We've already decided that it's inappropriate to yell "FIRE" in a crowded theater when there is no fire. So perhaps we should examine some of the other crap people yell either in public or on the internet that is also absent of a basis in reality or humanity.

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Response to dballance (Reply #46)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 12:42 PM

51. Then we have some agreement

While I believe in maximizing all rights, IMO slander and libel is unfair, can be harmful and is usually not punished.

Those who argue (and I realize you were referring to Scalia, not necessarily your own opinion) that the 2A only covers muskets (I would say not cannons) but the 1A is not limited to hand operated presses and shouting from street corners are being specious, at best.

As I can accept the 1A covers broadcast and electronic media, the 2A applies to modern weapons. The 1A can be narrowly limited to slander, libel and perhaps hate speech e.g. inciting and encouraging race/gender related violence. Similarly the 2A can be narrowly limited to protect the modern equivalent of flintlocks- rifles, shotguns, pistols... yet modern 'cannons'- RPGs, belt fed automatic weapons, grenades... can be restricted within the spirit of the amendment.

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Response to sarisataka (Reply #51)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 02:16 PM

55. Yes, I do think we agree

Other countries have laws regarding "hate speech" and seem to get along just fine with all the other speech. Even if it's rather outrageous. I'm okay with that. I think the 1st Amendment does protect people so they can say the dumbest most outrageous stuff if they want. There is usually a cohort out there that will agree with them.

However, I think it's perfectly fine to ban "hate speech." What is "hate speech?" Well like one of the justices on the Supreme Court said with regard to porn "I know it when I see it."

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Response to Logical (Reply #4)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 08:09 AM

8. I don't have access to Belcher's personal

records so I can't say whether there was any behavior like past domestic violence that should have prevented him from owning a firearm. And neither do you. There is evidence of past tensions between him and his wife, which I think should have been enough to temporarily suspend his gun license until they received proper counseling.

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Response to Shankapotomus (Reply #8)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 08:13 AM

12. No "license" is required to own a gun! Maybe he had a conceal and...

Carry license but ever if that was revoked he can still have the gun in his house!
He never committed a felony, so gun possession is legal.
Nothing I see could of stopped this.

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Response to Logical (Reply #12)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 08:36 AM

14. Except new gun laws that would take the lethal gun away

You asked what currently non-existent gun laws would have prevented this and then cite current existing gun laws back to me. I acknowledge your correction on my license mistake. However, license or no license, I am proposing a law that might take a lethal firearm away, in a case of domestic issues, yet still allow access to non-lethal firearms such as tasers or be temporarily issued a specifically designed burning propellent weapon to replace the lethal one, whose lethality is eliminated, but complies with the legal definition of a "firearm." In other words, levels of firearm ownerships based on new gun laws that monitor behavior, psychological records and domestic situations.

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Response to Shankapotomus (Reply #14)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 08:42 AM

15. I agree only if belcher had a police report or incident that was reported, and...

There is no proof of that. Punching a window in college does not sound like enough. Also, no one knows I own a gun so hard to take it away if you do not search my house.

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Response to Logical (Reply #15)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 09:09 AM

18. In the case of Belcher and most families

the family knows who owns a gun and if there are domestic tensions. Under my new gun law proposal, Belcher's family, mother-in-law, etc, could have alerted the police and Belcher's access to lethal firearms could have been suspended for a temporary "cool down" period while maintaining his right to access to a non-lethal, legally compliant "firearm." But, I agree, the family would have had to alert police. However, if once alerted, there needs to be laws police can use help avoid impulsive tragedies related to firearms.

Also there is a difference in arguing with a window and arguing with another person. It's the difference between directing your anger at an inanimate object without any known context or relation to anyone else and expressing anger in context or relation to an interaction with someone. I think police are smart enough to judge the difference most of the time.

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Response to onehandle (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 08:09 AM

9. There is only ONE thing a gun is designed to do: kill.

That's it. Period.

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Response to ananda (Reply #9)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 08:12 AM

11. Obviously you don't know about the Olympic shooting events and other lesser matches. nt

 

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Response to jody (Reply #11)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 09:15 AM

20. Yes. A gun's secondary purpose is to strike a target violently.

So much different from it's primary purpose.

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Response to jody (Reply #11)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 10:13 AM

32. Which is the simulation of killing.

And for the record, I have no problem with competitive shooting events or target practice. But let's not kid ourselves as to what it is.

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Response to Tommy_Carcetti (Reply #32)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 10:24 AM

38. Killing what? Paper?

Is archery also a simulation of killing?

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Response to Union Scribe (Reply #38)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 11:36 AM

47. Apparently you missed the word "simulation."

And again, no, I have nothing against target shooting or competitive shooting in and of itself. But it is the simulation of shooting to kill/injure, which is the sole intended purpose of guns. Hence, you'll often see targets such as these:



And sure, archery is also simulated killing. That's neither here nor there.

The main point that I want to drive home though is that guns have a sole intended purpose. They aren't cars, as some gun proponents love to compare them with, as cars are intended to get a person from one place to another, and deaths as a result of cars are incidential to their intended purpose. And when you have an item whose intended purpose is to kill or injure, I do believe the threshold for regulation needs to be greater.

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Response to ananda (Reply #9)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 08:15 AM

13. There is only ONE thing a Knife is designed to do: kill.

 

That's it. Period.
Sounds stupid right?

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Response to Berserker (Reply #13)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 08:50 AM

16. Not hardly.

 

Knives can be used to whittle/carving wood. A scalpel to do surgery to save a life. Cut up or help prepare your food. Cut hoses and tubing to length. Open the mail. Open boxes. Clear a path through a jungle. A tool to build or repair things.

Guns? they make loud noises and are designed to kill things. I supposed you could use a hand gun as a hammer, if you wanted. But their intended and practical uses, as opposed to knives, are limited.

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Response to RC (Reply #16)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 09:22 AM

23. Guns are multi-purpose.



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Response to Berserker (Reply #13)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 09:24 AM

24. Epic Fail in your argument

Knives are used in so many other ways than killing. Your argument is quite shallow.

We use knives on a daily basis to:

- Cut food as we eat it
- In the preparation of food
- To open boxes and packages
- To cut the proper length of a rope or cord for a task

and many other ways that have nothing to do with harming or killing another person.

Aside from target practice and shooting competitions tell me how guns are used other than to maim or kill even if it's allegedly in self-defense?

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Response to Berserker (Reply #13)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 10:19 AM

35. lol. Do you use a gun to chop your onions?

Do you use a gun to cut twine?

Do you use a gun to open boxes?

I could go on, but I am sure you see who sounds stupid now.

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Response to onehandle (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 08:52 AM

17. I spent 15 months in-country Vietnam an I do not own a gun

a pellet gun to target shoot with yes but a real gun no. I've not shot either of my pellet guns in so long I'm not even sure they still work. If I was a hunter I'd own a gun but since I'm not then why put something in my home that thieves love to steal because guns are easy to fence. I'd say a sizable percent of guns in America have at one point been stolen. IMO
I am a supporter of the right to own guns but chose to not own one myself. Having said all that I agree with what Costas said.

Donning the asbestos

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Response to madokie (Reply #17)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 09:17 AM

22. You Sound Like My Relatives Who Did WWII Service.


Once they mustered out, they never wanted to see another gun for the rest of their lives.

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Response to Paladin (Reply #22)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 09:34 AM

26. Thats me

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Response to onehandle (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 09:16 AM

21. Johnson calls someone else "discredited" on gun matters?

Pull the other finger...

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Response to onehandle (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 09:24 AM

25. I agree with his size and strength he could have easily found other ways but the gun being added

To the equation made the decision to kill his girlfriend and himself that much easier. Strict gun control may not eliminate all violent crime but I have to believe it would help take some away

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Response to onehandle (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 09:45 AM

29. John Lott is darling of gun culture -- even co-wrote book with bigoted gun nut Grover Norquist.

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Response to onehandle (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 09:47 AM

30. As Mike Lupica Said "How Many Home Runs Would Babe Ruth Have Hit Without A Bat."

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Response to onehandle (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 09:50 AM

31. So many people who pull that trigger woefully regret doing so and snapped.

It DOES make a difference. If he didn't have a gun he may have hit her, heard her cry & plead, which in turn would possibly make him feel remorseful and give him a moment to realize his actions. Guns don't give you that moment of reflection until after the fact, when it's too late.

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Response to JaneyVee (Reply #31)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 10:20 AM

36. Very good points. Guns kill quickly and efficiently in moments of rage.

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Response to JaneyVee (Reply #31)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 10:41 AM

43. He could have killed her in any number of ways

He could have:

picked up a sofa and dropped it on her. Then dropped it on himself.
filled up the bathtub with water, then held both their heads under.
smeared bacon drippings on both of them, then provoked the neighbor's pit bull.

When a murderer is determined, he will find a way.

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Response to wtmusic (Reply #43)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 12:35 PM

48. the gun made the homicide more likely.

Data from a US mortality follow-back survey were analyzed to determine whether having a firearm in the home increases the risk of a violent death in the home and whether risk varies by storage practice, type of gun, or number of guns in the home. Those persons with guns in the home were at greater risk than those without guns in the home of dying from a homicide in the home (adjusted odds ratio = 1.9, 95% confidence interval: 1.1, 3.4). They were also at greater risk of dying from a firearm homicide, but risk varied by age and whether the person was living with others at the time of death. The risk of dying from a suicide in the home was greater for males in homes with guns than for males without guns in the home (adjusted odds ratio = 10.4, 95% confidence interval: 5.8, 18.9). Persons with guns in the home were also more likely to have died from suicide committed with a firearm than from one committed by using a different method (adjusted odds ratio = 31.1, 95% confidence interval: 19.5, 49.6). Results show that regardless of storage practice, type of gun, or number of firearms in the home, having a gun in the home was associated with an increased risk of firearm homicide and firearm suicide in the home.


Guns in the Home and Risk of a Violent Death in the Home: Findings from a National Study

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Response to barbtries (Reply #48)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 12:37 PM

49. Gotcha.

We agree, just havin' a little fun.

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Response to wtmusic (Reply #49)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 12:40 PM

50. you need to be gentle

with us gullible types...also on another thread i did have OJ brought up to me as proof that the absence of a gun never saved a homicide victim.

glad we're in agreement

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Response to barbtries (Reply #50)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 01:09 PM

52. The enormous amount of planning OJ went through

would tend to discredit that argument, if we're only talking about "heat of the moment" crimes.

Cute photo!

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Response to wtmusic (Reply #52)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 01:15 PM

53. thanks!

my daughter.

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Response to barbtries (Reply #53)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 01:29 PM

54. Cool

I have one that's about her age.

They make the future worth fighting for, don't they?

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Response to onehandle (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 10:34 AM

41. Did Costas mention the nexus between head injuries and violent behavior/suicide? I doubt it.

Removing guns won't change the NFL from a league in which young men are physically and mentally destroyed for our amusement.

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Response to Romulox (Reply #41)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 10:54 AM

44. Shhh.

 

Can't undermine our check signers in the NFL, can we?

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Response to Romulox (Reply #41)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 04:21 PM

63. Actually he addressed the problem with head injuries and such on Bill Maher's show just a month....

...or so ago. And he is in full agreement that the game is getting out of hand because of the constant push for bigger players.

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Response to onehandle (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 02:49 PM

56. More of the same

 

The Delicate Flowers (gun-nuts) trot out the same ancient NRA Talking Points - that were debunked sometime around 1800 - and waste people's time.

Guns are a religion to the Delicate Flowers because they are so terrified to walk outside without being strapped. They will defend their Precious as long as they need to breathe, since they need their guns to venture outside. They are SCARED!

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Response to onehandle (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 04:18 PM

61. Kick & Rec. n/t.

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