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Tue Dec 4, 2012, 02:25 AM

 

Hey, Does Anyone Else Think We Kinda Respect the Military Too Much Maybe?

http://www.411mania.com/politics/columns/264535

Hey, Does Anyone Else Think We Kinda Respect the Military Too Much Maybe?
Posted by Enrique on 11.28.2012


Apparently it was Veterans Day earlier this month. I know this because retailers offer great deals to veterans and non-veterans alike, television commercials for all sorts of companies remind us of how much they support the troops, and people from various walks of life fall over themselves proclaiming how much they respect the sacrifices made by the all-volunteer U.S. armed forces.

That's all well and good, but when some poor gal can lose her job because she posted a picture on Facebook that might offend veterans…then maybe we need to take a step back on over-praising the U.S. military. It's one thing to honor the military, but it's another to place members of the military beyond criticism. When it's acceptable to fire someone for not sufficiently respecting U.S. soldiers, it's a red flag that the casual militarization of America needs to be reined in.

The story so far…
In case you hadn't heard, last month some silly woman named Lindsey Stone visited Arlington National Cemetery, which as you may be aware is the final resting place of U.S. veterans going all the way back to the Civil War. Visitors typically conduct themselves with appropriate decorum, but Ms. Stone thought she'd have a laugh by pretending to disobey a sign near the Tomb of the Unknowns that demands "Silence and Respect" (see above).

As anyone who has ever googled "Washington monument boner pics" knows, vacation pictures featuring sight gags has a long history in and about our nation's capital. To be sure, Arlington National Cemetery is not a typical venue for such comic stylings, so Ms. Stone's sense of humor in this case was an example of poor taste. Compounding poor taste with equally poor judgment, Ms. Stone posted the picture on her Facebook page. Hilarity did not ensue.

What ensued was national outcry. Stone's bad joke made her Internet Famous in the worst possible way, and it wasn't long before the online hordes were calling for her to be fired (it was apparently a company trip). Stone and her accomplice were placed on unpaid leave, but that wasn't enough – a "Fire Lindsey Stone" Facebook page soon appeared (since deleted). Sure enough, it wasn't long before Stone and her colleague found themselves unemployed.

Congratulations, Outrage Brigade – you got two women fired for making a bad joke. Stone and her partner in bad manners had worked for a non-profit called LIFE (Living Independently For Everyone), Inc. According to LIFE's website, its mission is to "to enable people with disabilities to manage their own lives, make their own choices and give a person information and knowledge to assist in living with dignity and bravado." Stone had been with LIFE for 18 months and was previously described as a "good employee."

If Stone's bad joke somehow made her unable to perform her duties assisting disabled people, it's not at all clear to me. It's one thing to publicly shame someone for rude behavior. It's quite another to deprive them of their livelihood for doing something tasteless that harmed no one.

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Arrow 68 replies Author Time Post
Reply Hey, Does Anyone Else Think We Kinda Respect the Military Too Much Maybe? (Original post)
Great Caesars Ghost Dec 2012 OP
patrice Dec 2012 #1
JoeyT Dec 2012 #7
MADem Dec 2012 #26
patrice Dec 2012 #42
MADem Dec 2012 #44
patrice Dec 2012 #49
brokechris Dec 2012 #2
Lionessa Dec 2012 #3
JDPriestly Dec 2012 #4
Promethean Dec 2012 #5
Ghost Dog Dec 2012 #39
Egalitarian Thug Dec 2012 #6
bluestate10 Dec 2012 #46
Egalitarian Thug Dec 2012 #48
Bonobo Dec 2012 #8
RKP5637 Dec 2012 #30
Smarmie Doofus Dec 2012 #33
Comrade_McKenzie Dec 2012 #9
DeSwiss Dec 2012 #10
RKP5637 Dec 2012 #31
DeSwiss Dec 2012 #53
RKP5637 Dec 2012 #54
Godot51 Dec 2012 #11
Union Scribe Dec 2012 #12
hobbit709 Dec 2012 #13
Selatius Dec 2012 #14
RKP5637 Dec 2012 #32
WiffenPoof Dec 2012 #15
SQUEE Dec 2012 #25
Egalitarian Thug Dec 2012 #47
harmonicon Dec 2012 #16
AngryOldDem Dec 2012 #17
AlexSatan Dec 2012 #27
Patiod Dec 2012 #18
dreamnightwind Dec 2012 #19
SammyWinstonJack Dec 2012 #20
JustABozoOnThisBus Dec 2012 #21
lonestarnot Dec 2012 #28
JustABozoOnThisBus Dec 2012 #55
lonestarnot Dec 2012 #61
Logical Dec 2012 #22
Dark n Stormy Knight Dec 2012 #23
Baitball Blogger Dec 2012 #24
RKP5637 Dec 2012 #29
bowens43 Dec 2012 #34
sarisataka Dec 2012 #35
Smarmie Doofus Dec 2012 #36
treestar Dec 2012 #37
lastlib Dec 2012 #38
nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 #40
progressoid Dec 2012 #41
slackmaster Dec 2012 #43
Downtown Hound Dec 2012 #45
Great Caesars Ghost Dec 2012 #57
just1voice Dec 2012 #50
southernyankeebelle Dec 2012 #51
Aristus Dec 2012 #52
FightForMichigan Dec 2012 #56
Aristus Dec 2012 #58
Nevernose Dec 2012 #60
dreamnightwind Dec 2012 #65
Nevernose Dec 2012 #67
dreamnightwind Dec 2012 #68
alarimer Dec 2012 #59
loyalsister Dec 2012 #66
SoCalDem Dec 2012 #62
cherokeeprogressive Dec 2012 #63
HereSince1628 Dec 2012 #64

Response to Great Caesars Ghost (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 03:02 AM

1. I REALLY did not like what Stone did, but they should NOT have been fired. That's pretty much

an insult to the war dead too, i.e. it's not "what they died for".

I am a veteran. My family is full of veterans, 3 generations of military, and still has several active duty in multiple branches. And yes we very definitely do idealize, romanticize, exaggerate and otherwise are pretty dishonest about military. They are people just like the rest of us. Some of them, most?, are military because it's a job, a secure job with benefits.

Respect is something I accord to most people military or not and authentic respect is not possible unless you're HONEST about the object of that respect.

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Response to patrice (Reply #1)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 03:59 AM

7. +1

Excellent way of putting it.

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Response to patrice (Reply #1)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 09:15 AM

26. That woman lost her job because she worked for a place that fires people regularly.

I knew a couple of their employees--they are shitty with the benefits, and look for excuses to fire people or change their status from "hourly worker" to "manager" (salary--no overtime but longer hours) to get the most work for the pay they give.

They have a bad reputation for doing this. The woman just gave them a handy excuse. Now they can hire a replacement for anywhere from three to ten dollars cheaper, depending on how long the woman had worked there and how many raises she had gotten over time.

This was less about veterans and more about opportunity for that woman's employer.

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Response to MADem (Reply #26)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 01:16 PM

42. You are right. That also explains the rather unusual attack upon her & her friend.

I'm very very certain the sort of thing that you describe is characteristic of a very significant portion of employment terminations.

True stories.

At will employment is legalized Discrimination.

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Response to patrice (Reply #42)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 02:20 PM

44. The irony is that this placed is associated with a "hoity toity" private school that caters to

"special needs" children of the very rich and sometimes famous--if these people knew how shittily the administration of the school treated their employees, and how crappy their employee vetting system is since they've gotten "new" leadership (by new, I mean "new" in the past decade or so), those parents would pull their kids out of there in a Noo Yawk minute.

The LIFE Program, from what I understand from my acquaintances who are former victim-employees, is an extension of the private school where parents pay tens of thousands every year for their adult-but-not-ready-for-the-real-world children to be "coached" by these servant/slaves on things like cooking, cleaning, bill paying, interacting with the "real world," "taking responsibility," and "behaving maturely"--things of that nature. Basically, they're paying slave wages to people who are RAISING the emotionally/mentally challenged kids of the wealthy.

I don't think this girl is a bad person--you can't be if you work at that place, you have to be kind of open and enthusiastic to counsel those folks.

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Response to MADem (Reply #44)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 02:50 PM

49. I worked for something like that for a couple of years. Our main job was to see to it that our

students kept their butts in those seats and took their many meds.

Other than that, we were to lead them in rote repetition of lists of words, something that I would not entirely discount as a methodology if it weren't just about the ONLY thing, other than all kinds of field-trips anywhere and everywhere, that ever happened there.

A pretty expensive place, in its time going on 15 years ago now, with a very small student population mostly from dual-professional families.

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Response to Great Caesars Ghost (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 03:07 AM

2. Generally, I don't think we respect the military "too much"

I think that companies are using social media to spy on employees too much. What happens on FB should stay on FB. Don't accept anyone as a friend that you don't trust. I have one or two friends with big mouths--I hide certain things from them so they don't go into a tizzy (including political posts).

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Response to brokechris (Reply #2)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 03:38 AM

3. I think we do respect too much, and I agree with you that in this situation

 

it's much more of a FB privacy issue.

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Response to Great Caesars Ghost (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 03:39 AM

4. How can we respect people who are willing to give their lives

for our country and the values we stand for enough?

So, no. I would not say that we respect the military too much.

I would say that we respect the hierarchy of he military too much.

It is a cliche to say that some teachers don't do a good job in the classroom. That is probably true of every profession, of her job classification. Some are better at what they do than others.

But, it seems that, with regard to the military, we are considered to respect it too little if we criticize any of its officers, any of its strategy, any of the decisions made, any of the behavior of anyone in the military or even any war. And that, failing to demand enough in terms of performance and good behavior from our military, we do too much of.

It isn't that we respect them too much. They earn our respect just for volunteering. It's that we don't demand enough integrity and competency from them. We give lip service to demanding in integrity and competency, but in reality, we don't demand much at all.

Only in the past few years, since it has become obvious that neither of our current official wars in Iraq (supposed to be over but ????) or Afghanistan has gone well, have we even begun to consider asking our military to be accountable, and we have not gone nearly far enough yet.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #4)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 03:47 AM

5. I stand by JDPriestly.

I only did my 4 years but the reason I only did 4 is because of the rampant corruption I found. There are a lot of good people working as part of our military, they almost never get promoted to a position of any kind of authority.

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Response to Promethean (Reply #5)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 12:13 PM

39. Thanks, Promethean (for your service & for your honesty)...

"Rampant corruption". Huh. żAnd there's no kind of law against pointing that out, over there? (I'm here in (S.) Europe)...

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Response to Great Caesars Ghost (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 03:58 AM

6. Absolutely. We don't respect our sailors and soldiers at all, but we worship the military,

 

and because we do we pay an extraordinarily high price for this idiocy every day. We pay with a crumbling infrastructure, crushing poverty, an embarrassingly ignorant and unhealthy population, and a failing empire.

A situation that this woman's story epitomizes.

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #6)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 02:39 PM

46. Exactly. People over expensive weapons. Serve our Veterans after they have served, we don't

do a remotely decent job of that now. Support and supply our sailors, marines and soldiers so that they aren't having to look through dump sites for something to use as body armor.

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Response to bluestate10 (Reply #46)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 02:47 PM

48. Exactly. How we treat them is another in a long line of national embarrassments.

 

The very idea that after they've done their time it's OK to cheat, scrimp, and shortchange our obligation to them, while the military itself has been turned into the world's biggest corporate welfare system, is just shameful.

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Response to Great Caesars Ghost (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 04:07 AM

8. Yeah, and I am tired of hearing Rachel Maddow crow about them.

I think at one point, some on what passes for the "left" decided it would be good politically to take away some of the military vote from the right by waving flags.

But in doing so, they lost sight of the fact that they were anti-war, anti-military and joined the ranks of the rest of the flag-sucking, brainwashed population.

It is dangerous. It is a necessary step on the road to fascism. No, it itself is NOT fascism, but fascism REQUIRES a blind worship of the military in order to hope to be successful.

The military should instead by viewed with more skepticism and distrust IMO.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #8)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 09:34 AM

30. Well said!!! n/t

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #8)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 09:52 AM

33. +1 n/t

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Response to Great Caesars Ghost (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 04:12 AM

9. I find all forms of hero worship to be sickening.

 

Be it military, politician, royal family, celebrity, or other...

I believe in respect, but no one should be above reproach or ridicule.

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Response to Great Caesars Ghost (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 04:12 AM

10. No. Especially considering that for all intents and purposes, we live in a Police State.

A soft Police State, but a Police State nonetheless.

If anything, we probably don't praise them enough. I mean it is they who live on the business-end of this insanity we have the effrontery to call ''civilization'' -- for our sake. And in our place. It's a sorry thing that we must praise or respect them at all; over other humans. You'd think with all the intelligence, progress and scientific advancements we're constantly claiming we've achieved over past epochs, that we wouldn't still require armies and death machines to order ourselves. We're still just barbarians, heathens -- but with fast food, GMOs, smartphones and nuclear weapons.

- So no, considering all that, I don't think we respect the military too much. And seeing how they're now expanding their activities into the spy business, I'm sure everyone's opinions here are being noted. For your security, of course.....

K&R


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Response to DeSwiss (Reply #10)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 09:40 AM

31. Yep, it has become a 'soft' police state and on its way with just the right mix of TPTB to

become a true police state. Your diagram explains it perfectly. And this population has been dumbed down sooo much and bred with STUPIDITY that many have no idea what's going on ... And hard core marketing techniques are employed for $$$$$, big profits through waving the flag.

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Response to RKP5637 (Reply #31)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 04:26 PM

53. Thank you.

- Sometimes it gets lonely out here, doesn't it???

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Response to DeSwiss (Reply #53)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 04:32 PM

54. Yep, very lonely, very lonely indeed!

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Response to Great Caesars Ghost (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 04:17 AM

11. Empire

When you're on the road to empire all freedoms are lost, not in an instant but in a gradual, eroding fashion. In a true democracy all persons and all institutions should open to inspection, criticism and ridicule.
This is a personal freedom issue, not an intelligence or good taste issue. Foolishness, obscenity and, indeed, all speech are protected by the First Amendment.
Intelligence is not mentioned in the Constitution

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Response to Great Caesars Ghost (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 04:33 AM

12. I am anti-war, thus I am pro-soldier

Respecting people in the military, especially respecting their burial places, is not unreasonable. There are worse people, like those who carelessly send soldiers to die, but fuck Lindsey Stone and anyone else who actually thinks that, "Whether or not the dead buried at Arlington National Cemetery deserve respect should absolutely be a subject up for debate."

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Response to Great Caesars Ghost (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 04:47 AM

13. There's a big difference between the military machine-which is a part of the corporations

And the people serving in the military. And disrespecting the dead is totally uncalled for.
I have a cousin buried at Arlington, he was killed in 1968 in a war that I did not support and neither did he. He served as a medic since he wouldn't kill.

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Response to Great Caesars Ghost (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 05:02 AM

14. Americans are taught to respect and defer to authority too much.

It's one thing to honor the dead and those who fought and bled for the Bill of Rights and freedom, but we're dealing with a culture that is too prone to abuse from authority figures on high.

We tell everybody to be respectful of authority and conveniently forget to question that authority. There's nothing wrong with volunteering for military service, but on the other hand, there are a great many things wrong with the military-industrial complex that those men and women are finding themselves in.

Predominant attitudes appear to be a product of corporate propaganda, in my opinion. Many of the same shareholders who sit on the board of directors of these defense companies also sit on the boards of news companies and television companies. NBC is a great example, being owned by General Electric.

Such a culture could lead down a path that no Founder would wish to see.

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Response to Selatius (Reply #14)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 09:44 AM

32. Extremely well said! And in our new culture of STUPID many just don't care to see

what's going on, don't understand it and/or bury their heads in the sand. And the rest are on the take!

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Response to Great Caesars Ghost (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 05:10 AM

15. In A Related Issue...

I've noticed over the years how the term "hero" has been applied to a wider spectrum of people and professions.

Have you ever noticed how more and more people refer to "any" soldier as a hero? All a person has to do is be a member of the military to be considered heroic. You'll hear a pundit say "...our heros serving in Iraq or Afghanistan.". There was a time when you actually had to do something requiring extraordinary courage to be considered a "hero".

I'm not saying that soldiers are not courageous people...many are. But are they ALL heros?

Paige
Former Officer 1/64th ADA

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Response to WiffenPoof (Reply #15)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 09:08 AM

25. I could not agree more.

And not just in the case of the military either, Sports heroes? really?
I also have a distaste for the newly minted "warrior" culture. As a former grunt, I was a soldier, maybe a war fighter, but never a warrior. To me there is a primal and archaic tinge to the word, a history, one of rape and pillage, of some kind of glory and celebration in death. I have spilled blood and had my own spilled, but I did it as a soldier, disciplined and fearful of the implications, to myself and my nation. I have seen people revel in the gore and do their little dances of death and I was disgusted by it, and saddened that we as a modern people could celebrate the killers as more than average, as a paragon, as HERO.
Those who sacrifice, that gave their singular greatest possession, so that their brothers could live? They are heroes. Men who took incoming fire but didn't return it to save non combatants they are heroes. Medics treating the wounded under fire, heroes.
Those that regressed to tribalistic and savage animals? No, they were merely men, flawed and human and understandable, but they are not heroes.
Just 2 cents from a dirty dogface.

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Response to WiffenPoof (Reply #15)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 02:40 PM

47. Common to every authoritarian militaristic regime in modern history. Any of those articles you

 

reference could have been copied straight out of Pravda.

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Response to Great Caesars Ghost (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 05:11 AM

16. TLDR (nt)

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Response to Great Caesars Ghost (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 05:23 AM

17. Feeding the war machine and respecting those who serve are two different things.

And doing what this woman and her friend did at Arlington would be out of line at **any** cemetery, as well.

This is what happens when the government uses the military irresponsibly. The outrage over that misuse unfortunately can unfairly spread to those who are serving.

And as for her losing her job -- well, just another cautionary tale of being mindful of what one posts on social networks.

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Response to AngryOldDem (Reply #17)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 09:18 AM

27. Yep, and

 

the article is full of strawmen. How are military members beyond criticism? If they do something stupid or break the law, they are (and should be) criticized.

Should employers have the right to fire employees for calling black people n*****s?. I think so. And that is just a different form of showing a lack of respect to people--to a group who did not volunteer to put themselves in danger to protect our values.

But AOD, I agree with everything you said.

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Response to Great Caesars Ghost (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 07:19 AM

18. Regardless, they should NOT get more time to vote

A college friend on FB was whining that "Obama is taking away our heroes' right to vote" because the Justice Department was going after Ohio's scheme to give military members and their families more voting days than civilians.

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Response to Great Caesars Ghost (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 07:36 AM

19. We need to shrink the military till

it's small enough to drown it in a bathtub.

There, I bet that got some people's attention. Apologies for the Grover reference. Even worse, in this context, I actually believe it.

Honestly, U.S. taxpayers, for some reason, are footing the enormous bill (in both blood and treasure) of securing an international resource extraction economy, making sure these resources are sold on the global market rather than used for and controlled by the local residents. We have our meddling little (not so little) fingers in every corner of the planet, influencing other governments' behavior, or even outright installing other countries' governments and training proxy militaries that take over when our troops move on to the next "situation".

Since all of this is done in our names, ultimately as U.S. citizens it puts a price on all of our heads. What goes around comes around.

I see very little defense in our Dept. of Defense. It's pretty much all offense. The bad guys we supposedly need to kill are for the most part just sick of our troops and diplomats treating their countries as our own, which we do to an insane degree.

Respect for the military? Well, for the most part, I don't respect the jobs the military is tasked with. There are exceptions, but they are exceptions, not the main function of our military.

It's very difficult to speak honestly about feelings towards the military. In my case, it's sure to offend many, though it's not my intention. Glorifying military service by extension serves to glorify military activity, and is very actively used for that purpose by a massive corporate media empire that is itself at the heart of the military industrial complex.

Seems to me we need the freedom and the courage to talk about this, as our society has become overtaken by the military industrial complex that Eisenhower warned us about.

We need a real jobs program at home, we need the money we spend on the military to retool our economy to avoid catastrophic climate change (also the U.S. military is apparently the single greatest polluter on this planet) and to lift so many of our citizens out of poverty, we need to respect other cultures and other forms of governing and managing resources.

None of this is relevant to the story cited in the OP, which seemed distasteful to me just on a human level. But the OP went on in this direction, asking broader questions about our military mindset, and I think it's a brave and necessary question. K & R.

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Response to dreamnightwind (Reply #19)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 08:01 AM

20. ...

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Response to Great Caesars Ghost (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 08:05 AM

21. It's not respect, it's an overreaction to poutrage

A dumb video gets out, poutrage breeds more poutrage, and the only obvious solution is to let a head roll.

Sometimes we "pile on" at DU, too, such as when someone tries to remove a BB from a kid's scalp.

No way anyone should have been fired for a dumb joke. I'd bet most of the souls at Arlington would agree.

Many years ago, when I was a dumb draftee, a few of us visited the Parthenon. There was a sign (in many languages) that forbade singing in the Parthenon. We got down to "95 bottles of beer on the wall" before tiring of our own stupidity. Fortunately, this was before digital cameras and the intertubes.

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Response to JustABozoOnThisBus (Reply #21)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 09:22 AM

28. Ok, I looked but could not find why singing is banned at the Parthenon.

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Response to lonestarnot (Reply #28)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 04:58 PM

55. It seemed dumb at the time

but maybe they were concerned about vibration (my voice vs 10-ton marble blocks, haha).

This was in the late '60's. Maybe saner heads have removed the signs. Nobody would think to sing there unless there was a sign forbidding it.

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Response to JustABozoOnThisBus (Reply #55)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 07:07 PM

61. Of course, and the sign didn't say the crap may collapse on you if you sing LOL. Glad nothing

happened to you.

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Response to Great Caesars Ghost (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 08:10 AM

22. Why are soldiers any more important than coal miners?

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Response to Great Caesars Ghost (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 08:11 AM

23. I believe you need to snip.

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Response to Great Caesars Ghost (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 08:11 AM

24. My local town does a great job of playing favorites.

The Fourth of July celebrations are heavy with military tributes, you almost think it's Veteran's Day. And one year the city cancelled the Fourth of July fireworks, but on Veterans Day it sounded like an artillery storm with firework tributes.

Then they allowed them to put up a monument where the flag, THE AMERICAN FLAG, was dedicated to service people who live in the community.

And, of course, in a good ole boy town that looks for "community leaders" to facilitate the city's agenda, they cater to the military retirees, retired Colonels and Captains, at a cost of the rest of us losing our property rights.

So, yes, I think we need to refocus and give our attention to those veterans that really need our help, and realize there is a Petraeus entitlement effect going on that is disrupting the democratic process.

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Response to Great Caesars Ghost (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 09:23 AM

29. My one gripe is the Military has become a huge money maker in this country and abroad. And often

the Military is hyped for Profit! Also, many are not treated well when they return to civilian life, etc. It's one thing to have the Military to protect the country and all, and that I applaud greatly. It's the $$$$ angle I don't like, pushing needless militarization and hyping it with hard core marketing techniques. And now the $$$$$ by militarizing the local police forces. This country is on a very dangerous road. And President Eisenhower spelled it out exactly.


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Response to Great Caesars Ghost (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 09:53 AM

34. I don't. No special status, respect or automatic hero tag as far as I'm concerned.

they're people getting paid to do a job, a job they chose. no different then me or the plumber or the the teacher or the person running the register at walmart.

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Response to Great Caesars Ghost (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 09:55 AM

35. Can you ever respect anyone too much?

Be it military, police, doctors, teachers or coal miners and fast food workers...
Respect does not mean unconditional support and ignoring any improper actions. Military members are people and some will make mistakes like everyone does. That does not represent the whole. when a teacher is convicted of having sex with a student do we assume every teacher is horrible and doing the same thing?

As for Ms Stone I find her picture to be foolish and in extremely poor taste, yet she has the right to act that way and even take the picture. Now posting it on the internet for literally the world to see makes her, or anyone's, foolish and distasteful action public. If you do something in public, you face possible repercussions. By posting photos you open things that are private to the public and, while it may have been fine to keep to your self or share with select friends, there may be consequences from your choice of publicizing your actions. As criminals have been caught by posting photos of their crimes, if you post a picture that causes your employer to question your judgement and ability to do your job-- well you had the choice to not put your photo online.

I do not have a facebook page. I know I am foolish enough without having to give the world photographic evidence.

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Response to Great Caesars Ghost (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 10:01 AM

36. It's a bogus and dangerous way for the left to find common cause w. the right.

i.e. : By trying to make a labored and tenuous distinction between "the troops" and the *institution*.

It all ends up in the consensus fetish for "all things military" that you have described.

We are all aware that some decent people go into the military. That fact alone doesn't make the institution itself any less intrinsically evil.

But not as evil as the mindless mass worship of it orchestrated by corporations and politicians.

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Response to Great Caesars Ghost (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 10:01 AM

37. I wouldn't even say it is the military in this case

It's the Facebook thing. A lot of people do dumb things - she could have done the same thing in the 90s or earlier with only those present knowing. And continued to do her job.

I agree the punishment of losing one's job over these things is over the top. People need to get a grip.

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Response to Great Caesars Ghost (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 10:39 AM

38. I respect soldiers who are soldiers for the right reasons....

I do not respect soldiers who use their uniform as a cover to inflict violence on innocents. I do not respect the military as an institution, given its too-cozy relationship to big business and profit-making. Using war for profit is obscene.

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Response to Great Caesars Ghost (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 12:20 PM

40. Hmm no we don't

If we did we would not have over two million spent bullets living under bridges.

Nor would have to fight their own government to get what was promised.

Now if you speak of symbols, not just of the military and that is a knee jerk reaction to the 1960s and Vietnam. It's easy to praise something (the symbols) that are distant a best to most Americans.

No, the danger is that we have transformed the military into a praetorian guard.

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Response to Great Caesars Ghost (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 12:26 PM

41. There are many in the military that I have absolutely no respect for.

Oliver North comes first to mind.

I still respect the military but I don't idolize or worship it as many Americans do.

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Response to Great Caesars Ghost (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 01:42 PM

43. As a member of a Navy family I say

 

Fuck that.

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Response to Great Caesars Ghost (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 02:33 PM

45. You mean the military that played vital support roles

in the violent crackdowns on legal protest at the 2004, 2008 RNC conventions and Occupy Wall Street in violation of the Posse Comitatus Act and who a majority of its members continue to vote Republican in open support of international war crimes committed on a global scale and that costs so much we could probably provide a first rate college education for everybody in the country or feed and clothe all the homeless or provide health care to all if we didn't spend so much on it? That military?

Yes, I think we respect it just a little too much.

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Response to Downtown Hound (Reply #45)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 05:42 PM

57. +1000

 

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Response to Great Caesars Ghost (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 03:06 PM

50. Yes; extreme nationalism, torture camps, wars for profit, huge chunk of GDP

 

The Giant food store near me regularly broadcasts propaganda in their stores asking people to give money to the military. I told the manager that the U.S. spends 750 billion a year on defense and it is obscene to beg for money for the very same thing. I don't shop there anymore.

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Response to Great Caesars Ghost (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 03:59 PM

51. My father and my uncle and their wives are buried at Arlington. The young woman

 

was a hugh jerk and very disrespectful to the dead. Saying that I don't think she should lose her job over it. I do think congress is giving way to much power to the generals instead of the commander-in-chief. Maybe its because Obama is president.

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Response to Great Caesars Ghost (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 04:08 PM

52. Respect is one thing; and a good thing. But I think we have come to fetishize our military.

And that is not good. I was upset and offended by the woman's photograph; she shouldn't have done it, but she shouldn't have been fired because of it, either.

As a highly militaristic imperialist nation, we have come to rely too much on the armed forces, and to misuse them as a tool of diplomacy.

We were much less militaristic before World War II. Winning the war seems to have been the trigger (so to speak) that set us off on the path to militarism. We discovered we could be good at war, and decided to stop being good at anything else. There was enough societal oomph left in us after the war to allow us to accomplish things like The Berlin Airlift, the Salk vaccine, and the moon program. But basically we've decided to stop being a great nation, and simply settle for being a well-armed nation. That's why we've had so many of these destructive, bankrupting, shit-pot little wars all over the world: when the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem tends to look like a nail.

And have you noticed? We only ever pick on people we think won't fight back. And then when they do, the Vietnamese, the Lebanese, the Iraqis, etc, we are always so surprised.

So, no; respect is fine. But this fetishization of our Armed Forces needs to end...

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Response to Aristus (Reply #52)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 05:10 PM

56. Exactly this

And that's the word I use for it, too.

As the daughter of a woman who grew up in WW2 Berlin - she was 7 when the war ended - I was raised to be deeply distrustful of flag waving and rah-rahing of the military. It makes me deeply uncomfortable to this day. I cringe when I'm at, say, a baseball game and they ask all military people to stand and be applauded. I know a lot of people who do a lot of truly great things who never get such recognition. It leaves me feeling horribly uneasy.

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Response to FightForMichigan (Reply #56)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 06:18 PM

58. I agree.

I've said for a number of years, since right around the beginning of the Iraq War, in fact, that I tend to distrust massive overwhelming, histrionic displays of patriotic fervor. Not because I think they're insincere or disingenuous, but because they all seem to come with the same unspoken message: 'I am more patriotic than you, because look how loud I'm shouting about it.'

I think we can do better than that.

Thank you for your thoughtful words.

Welcome to DU!

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Response to Aristus (Reply #52)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 06:56 PM

60. We were just as militaristic before WWII

We're just better at it now, and more ambitious about it.

Here's an excerpt from the now well known chart:

SOUTH DAKOTA 1890 (-?) Troops 300 Lakota Indians massacred at Wounded Knee.
ARGENTINA 1890 Troops Buenos Aires interests protected.
CHILE 1891 Troops Marines clash with nationalist rebels.
HAITI 1891 Troops Black revolt on Navassa defeated.
IDAHO 1892 Troops Army suppresses silver miners' strike.
HAWAII 1893 (-?) Naval, troops Independent kingdom overthrown, annexed.
CHICAGO 1894 Troops Breaking of rail strike, 34 killed.
NICARAGUA 1894 Troops Month-long occupation of Bluefields.
CHINA 1894-95 Naval, troops Marines land in Sino-Japanese War
KOREA 1894-96 Troops Marines kept in Seoul during war.
PANAMA 1895 Troops, naval Marines land in Colombian province.
NICARAGUA 1896 Troops Marines land in port of Corinto.
CHINA 1898-1900 Troops Boxer Rebellion fought by foreign armies.
PHILIPPINES 1898-1910 (-?) Naval, troops Seized from Spain, killed 600,000 Filipinos
CUBA 1898-1902 (-?) Naval, troops Seized from Spain, still hold Navy base.
PUERTO RICO 1898 (-?) Naval, troops Seized from Spain, occupation continues.
GUAM 1898 (-?) Naval, troops Seized from Spain, still use as base.
MINNESOTA 1898 (-?) Troops Army battles Chippewa at Leech Lake.
NICARAGUA 1898 Troops Marines land at port of San Juan del Sur.
SAMOA 1899 (-?) Troops Battle over succession to throne.
NICARAGUA 1899 Troops Marines land at port of Bluefields.
IDAHO 1899-1901 Troops Army occupies Coeur d'Alene mining region.
OKLAHOMA 1901 Troops Army battles Creek Indian revolt.
PANAMA 1901-14 Naval, troops Broke off from Colombia 1903, annexed Canal Zone; Opened canal 1914.
HONDURAS 1903 Troops Marines intervene in revolution.
DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1903-04 Troops U.S. interests protected in Revolution.
KOREA 1904-05 Troops Marines land in Russo-Japanese War.
CUBA 1906-09 Troops Marines land in democratic election.
NICARAGUA 1907 Troops "Dollar Diplomacy" protectorate set up.
HONDURAS 1907 Troops Marines land during war with Nicaragua
PANAMA 1908 Troops Marines intervene in election contest.
NICARAGUA 1910 Troops Marines land in Bluefields and Corinto.
HONDURAS 1911 Troops U.S. interests protected in civil war.
CHINA 1911-41 Naval, troops Continuous occupation with flare-ups.
CUBA 1912 Troops U.S. interests protected in civil war.
PANAMA 1912 Troops Marines land during heated election.
HONDURAS 1912 Troops Marines protect U.S. economic interests.
NICARAGUA 1912-33 Troops, bombing 10-year occupation, fought guerillas
MEXICO 1913 Naval Americans evacuated during revolution.
DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1914 Naval Fight with rebels over Santo Domingo.
COLORADO 1914 Troops Breaking of miners' strike by Army.
MEXICO 1914-18 Naval, troops Series of interventions against nationalists.
HAITI 1914-34 Troops, bombing 19-year occupation after revolts.
TEXAS 1915 Troops Federal soldiers crush "Plan of San Diego" Mexican-American rebellion
DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1916-24 Troops 8-year Marine occupation.
CUBA 1917-33 Troops Military occupation, economic protectorate.
WORLD WAR I 1917-18 Naval, troops Ships sunk, fought Germany for 1 1/2 years.
RUSSIA 1918-22 Naval, troops Five landings to fight Bolsheviks
PANAMA 1918-20 Troops "Police duty" during unrest after elections.
HONDURAS 1919 Troops Marines land during election campaign.
YUGOSLAVIA 1919 Troops/Marines intervene for Italy against Serbs in Dalmatia.
GUATEMALA 1920 Troops 2-week intervention against unionists.
WEST VIRGINIA 1920-21 Troops, bombing Army intervenes against mineworkers.
TURKEY 1922 Troops Fought nationalists in Smyrna.
CHINA 1922-27 Naval, troops Deployment during nationalist revolt.
MEXICO

HONDURAS

1923

1924-25

Bombing

Troops

Airpower defends Calles from rebellion

Landed twice during election strife.

PANAMA 1925 Troops Marines suppress general strike.
CHINA 1927-34 Troops Marines stationed throughout the country.
EL SALVADOR 1932 Naval Warships send during Marti revolt.

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Response to Nevernose (Reply #60)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 02:21 PM

65. Have a source for that chart/list?

I'd be interested in it, where did you get it? Thanks.

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Response to Nevernose (Reply #67)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 03:00 AM

68. Just now saw your post, thanks for the link - nt

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Response to Great Caesars Ghost (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 06:48 PM

59. It's not respect that's the problem; it's glorification.

Respect for what these people do and the sacrifices they make is fine and good. It's the glorification that is dangerous

I don't hero-worship anyone. And the hero worship afforded to Petraeus was sickening and it's great that he's been taken down a peg or two by proving to be human after all.

But any criticism of the military is assumed to be disrespectful and that is dangerous as well.

We spend far too much on the military, in part because any efforts to cut it is deemed to be "against our troops," which is nonsense of course, but no politician has the guts to stand up to that bullshit.

So, while I have a great deal of respect for people willing to serve (especially for the enlisted, not so much for officers and even less for the top brass), I disdain the institution as a whole. I consider it to be a drain on the treasury and mostly wasteful spending.

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Response to alarimer (Reply #59)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 02:46 PM

66. Exactly

The one that bothers me most is that they should be treated better than the rest of us. One example- "they deserve health care because they fought for our country." What about the rest of us?

I am also a little uncomfortable with people from our wars of choice being identified as having "fought for our country." There has been no threat to our country for a very long time, yet we have been fighting in optional wars for 40 + years.

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Response to Great Caesars Ghost (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 07:07 PM

62. Knee-jerk reaction for too many

men-who-have-never-served...do it because if they embellish their accolades for those who did, they can "justify" (to themselves) their own cowardice/self-served-ness.

women (may) do it as some karmic-wish/hope that if ever one of their dear-ones serve, they may get some "protection"-from harm

parents/widows/loved-ones of killed soldiers do it because to NOT do it somehow makes their dear one's death even more unnecessary and wasteful.



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Response to Great Caesars Ghost (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 07:10 PM

63. Nnnnnnnnnope

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Response to Great Caesars Ghost (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 07:10 PM

64. Way too much thoughtless jingoism, IMO.

The concept of a citizen soldiery that serves a civilian leadership has been twisted beyond recognition.

I do appreciate many forces work upon society to produce that bend, but it is bent.

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