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Mon Dec 3, 2012, 02:41 PM

The danger posed by Mens Rights Activists and similar groups

I have been thinking about posting this for some time but was unsure of the reception. then I realised that damn the reception this sort of vindictive sexism needs to be brought into the light and, preferably, stamped out.

For sometime I have been horrified by the vile and abusive posts from MRAs that have been highlighted by FSTDT. Not being one to frequent such sites myself I thought such things were just aberrations of the same nature an Free Republic. Then I discovered the blog Man Boobz whose stated aim is "Misogyny, I mock it". In fact it highlights the hateful attitudes espoused by such groups

The first post I clicked was this horror "A Voice for Men fights the rising tide of loose vaginas" which highlighted some seriously vicious anti-women comments.

Other posts included
“As men, Force is the greatest weapon we have … We must use it,” says racist manosphere asshat.
http://manboobz.com/2012/11/13/as-men-force-is-the-greatest-weapon-we-have-we-must-use-it-says-racist-manosphere-asshat/

Innovative New “Bread” Metaphor Explains Why Most Women are “Stale” and “Moldy”
http://manboobz.com/2012/11/23/innovative-new-bread-metaphor-explains-why-most-women-are-stale-and-moldy/

Then there was this little profile of a certain Warren Farrell
What Men’s Rights guru Warren Farrell actually said about the allegedly positive aspects of incest.
http://manboobz.com/2012/11/21/what-mens-rights-guru-warren-farrell-actually-said-about-the-allegedly-positive-aspects-of-incest-note-its-even-more-repugnant-than-that-sounds/

I will not quote directly from these posts, the titles are pretty self explanatory, click the links if you have a strong enough stomach.

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Reply The danger posed by Mens Rights Activists and similar groups (Original post)
intaglio Dec 2012 OP
hifiguy Dec 2012 #1
intaglio Dec 2012 #2
MrDiaz Dec 2012 #29
intaglio Dec 2012 #182
MrDiaz Dec 2012 #188
intaglio Dec 2012 #194
MrDiaz Dec 2012 #195
intaglio Dec 2012 #198
LiberalLoner Dec 2012 #43
sendero Dec 2012 #63
intaglio Dec 2012 #180
sendero Dec 2012 #200
intaglio Dec 2012 #203
Lightbulb_on Dec 2012 #104
intaglio Dec 2012 #181
Cerridwen Dec 2012 #3
bettyellen Dec 2012 #4
LiberalLoner Dec 2012 #44
Helen Reddy Dec 2012 #53
redqueen Dec 2012 #8
gollygee Dec 2012 #15
liberalhistorian Dec 2012 #20
Chorophyll Dec 2012 #10
LiberalLoner Dec 2012 #178
redqueen Dec 2012 #12
Riftaxe Dec 2012 #35
redqueen Dec 2012 #41
Riftaxe Dec 2012 #206
opiate69 Dec 2012 #13
redqueen Dec 2012 #14
opiate69 Dec 2012 #18
Cerridwen Dec 2012 #16
opiate69 Dec 2012 #21
Cerridwen Dec 2012 #25
opiate69 Dec 2012 #30
redqueen Dec 2012 #28
Cerridwen Dec 2012 #38
RKP5637 Dec 2012 #201
hfojvt Dec 2012 #60
intaglio Dec 2012 #26
redqueen Dec 2012 #17
opiate69 Dec 2012 #22
redqueen Dec 2012 #24
opiate69 Dec 2012 #31
redqueen Dec 2012 #34
Warren DeMontague Dec 2012 #137
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #54
Gormy Cuss Dec 2012 #122
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #126
Cerridwen Dec 2012 #5
Initech Dec 2012 #6
redqueen Dec 2012 #9
Warren DeMontague Dec 2012 #142
redqueen Dec 2012 #7
Chorophyll Dec 2012 #11
Egalitarian Thug Dec 2012 #19
Cerridwen Dec 2012 #23
opiate69 Dec 2012 #27
Cerridwen Dec 2012 #33
sufrommich Dec 2012 #36
Cerridwen Dec 2012 #39
opiate69 Dec 2012 #47
Egalitarian Thug Dec 2012 #177
Starry Messenger Dec 2012 #32
redqueen Dec 2012 #37
Cerridwen Dec 2012 #42
redqueen Dec 2012 #50
Cerridwen Dec 2012 #51
redqueen Dec 2012 #52
haikugal Dec 2012 #184
davidn3600 Dec 2012 #40
Cerridwen Dec 2012 #45
Egalitarian Thug Dec 2012 #171
gollygee Dec 2012 #48
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #55
TrueBlueinCO Dec 2012 #70
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obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #127
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gollygee Dec 2012 #149
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gollygee Dec 2012 #158
Starry Messenger Dec 2012 #148
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gollygee Dec 2012 #151
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Starry Messenger Dec 2012 #163
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davidn3600 Dec 2012 #168
Starry Messenger Dec 2012 #179
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Starry Messenger Dec 2012 #189
seabeyond Dec 2012 #192
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sufrommich Dec 2012 #87
TrueBlueinCO Dec 2012 #88
gollygee Dec 2012 #90
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davidn3600 Dec 2012 #185
tama Dec 2012 #196
seabeyond Dec 2012 #97
Bonobo Dec 2012 #174
seabeyond Dec 2012 #190
Bonobo Dec 2012 #191
sufrommich Dec 2012 #92
TrueBlueinCO Dec 2012 #96
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obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #110
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boston bean Dec 2012 #125
sufrommich Dec 2012 #133
MadrasT Dec 2012 #161
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #129
sufrommich Dec 2012 #130
tama Dec 2012 #197
seabeyond Dec 2012 #100
TrueBlueinCO Dec 2012 #106
seabeyond Dec 2012 #113
TrueBlueinCO Dec 2012 #118
seabeyond Dec 2012 #147
RedCappedBandit Dec 2012 #159
gollygee Dec 2012 #120
DURHAM D Dec 2012 #143
boston bean Dec 2012 #164
intaglio Dec 2012 #172
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #109
boston bean Dec 2012 #140
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #155
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #108
Nye Bevan Dec 2012 #46
sufrommich Dec 2012 #49
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #56
Nye Bevan Dec 2012 #58
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #65
Nye Bevan Dec 2012 #69
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #74
intaglio Dec 2012 #173
intaglio Dec 2012 #204
Bonobo Dec 2012 #57
TrueBlueinCO Dec 2012 #59
sufrommich Dec 2012 #61
TrueBlueinCO Dec 2012 #64
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #67
TrueBlueinCO Dec 2012 #68
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #71
TrueBlueinCO Dec 2012 #72
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #73
TrueBlueinCO Dec 2012 #75
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TrueBlueinCO Dec 2012 #79
LiberalLoner Dec 2012 #78
TrueBlueinCO Dec 2012 #80
LiberalLoner Dec 2012 #83
TrueBlueinCO Dec 2012 #84
LiberalLoner Dec 2012 #94
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #117
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #116
TrueBlueinCO Dec 2012 #121
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #124
TrueBlueinCO Dec 2012 #128
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #135
TrueBlueinCO Dec 2012 #138
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #146
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #114
TrueBlueinCO Dec 2012 #123
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #131
TrueBlueinCO Dec 2012 #134
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #139
TrueBlueinCO Dec 2012 #141
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #145
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #103
opiate69 Dec 2012 #169
cali Dec 2012 #62
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #66
TrueBlueinCO Dec 2012 #89
gollygee Dec 2012 #77
TrueBlueinCO Dec 2012 #81
gollygee Dec 2012 #82
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #132
TrueBlueinCO Dec 2012 #136
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #156
Starry Messenger Dec 2012 #160
boston bean Dec 2012 #162
Earth_First Dec 2012 #166
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #167
intaglio Dec 2012 #175
cecilfirefox Dec 2012 #170
intaglio Dec 2012 #176
Egalitarian Thug Dec 2012 #199
haikugal Dec 2012 #183
seabeyond Dec 2012 #193
littlemissmartypants Dec 2012 #186
Bonobo Dec 2012 #202
intaglio Dec 2012 #205

Response to intaglio (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 02:49 PM

1. What does this have to do with DU?

I've never seen any links to this kind of crap anywhere on DU except in your post. This is like posting links to a bunch of dingbat reichwing sites, which is generally forbidden by the Admins.

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Response to hifiguy (Reply #1)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 03:05 PM

2. No, I am posting about the sick minds that inhabit the Mens Rights sites on the web

The attitudes that are starting to permeate the posts of certain groups on DU who seem to want to marginalise women.

I thought these sort of comments just came from a loopy minority that could be tolerated, instead I find they are just the tip of the iceberg. You may wish to live in ignorance, I do not and I believe that many others will be interested in this.

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Response to intaglio (Reply #2)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 04:05 PM

29. IS THAT

 

EVERY single mens right activist, or just the ones that you have viewed and in turn formed a stereotype in your head?

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Response to MrDiaz (Reply #29)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 03:13 AM

182. I am talking about vicious misogynists

and the deluded MRAs who enable them.

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Response to intaglio (Reply #182)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 06:51 AM

188. do you believe there

 

are any women rights activists who view men the same way, or is this only the men who do this? Because like I said i think you are perpetuating a stereotype.

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Response to MrDiaz (Reply #188)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 01:26 PM

194. Of course there are, but significantly fewer than the MRAs

additionally those extremist females do are not attempting to push their agenda onto DU nor do they pretend to be the majority or the mainstream.

Now perhaps you would like to justify your "stereotype" comment. MRA sites support vicious misogyny - at least all of those I have seen. Perhaps you could provide links to the, near invisible, MRAs who excoriate such behaviour and censor the issuers of such vile manifestos.

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Response to intaglio (Reply #194)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 01:35 PM

195. um

 

mensrights.com

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Response to MrDiaz (Reply #195)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 02:33 PM

198. Condemnation of misogyny? I don't see that there

But the first article I clicked on was this one "Inside Story: Domestic Violence Shelters" Which has the following paragraphs near the beginningemphasis added)
However, day-by-day, week-by-week, it became more and more obvious that the business of domestic violence and my belief in what the true goal of our shelter should be were two very different animals.

The business of domestic violence is exactly that - a business only concerned with numbers, statistics, and money (generally in the form of donations). I believe this is incredibly detrimental to actual victims of domestic violence.

These shelters also make it extremely tempting to people to lie about abuse in order to present themselves as a victim of domestic violence so they would qualify for shelter care.

Any comments?

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Response to intaglio (Reply #2)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 04:54 PM

43. Thank you

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Response to intaglio (Reply #2)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 06:32 PM

63. You mean..

... THAT PARTICULAR site, right? Otherwise, bye bye any credibility you might have once had,

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Response to sendero (Reply #63)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 03:08 AM

180. Goodbye to your credibility. You haven't checked the links

Man Boobz is a site that samples and mocks the many MRA sites that exist. They also sample and mock the PUA sites.

MRAs are also active on sites like Stormfront and Free Republic.

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Response to intaglio (Reply #180)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 08:00 PM

200. Wow..

... so a self-selected sample is now meaningful. And guilt by association also.

If you are still contending that even MOST men's right organizations are like these folks, just say so.

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Response to sendero (Reply #200)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 02:04 AM

203. So you will keep posting the same senseless foolishness

There is no cure fore willful blindness and there is still no cure for apparently deliberate misreading of posts.

I have said that all "Men's Rights" sites I have seen support, publish, enable or refuse to condemn misogyny. I have given a link to a site that monitors such sick posturing and have noted that other examples can be found on other monitoring sites.

The one (repeat one) site that was touted to me as not supporting such hateful attitudes had no statement condemning such attitudes and at least one article explaining how domestic violence shelters are a business and encourage women to lie about abuse. This last is not just "guilt by association" it is guilt by act; reinforcing the lie that most women lie about domestic violence and rape.

Find me a Men's Rights site that unequivocally condemns misogyny and bans people posting such garbage and I will moderate my opinion of such sites - although I will continue to see "Men's Rights Activism" as being very like "White Rights Activism"

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Response to intaglio (Reply #2)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 07:54 PM

104. You're telling me there's asshole men in the world?!

 

Next think you'll say is that there are asshole women as well...

Well, I for one won't stand here and listen to these outrageous statements.

*stomps off in a huff*

Seriously though, Men's rights, Women's rights, Left handed Ginger rights... How about we just treat each other with some fucking decency and marginalize assholes...

Most groups have legitimate issues, custody rights come to mind for men and take your pick for women.

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Response to Lightbulb_on (Reply #104)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 03:12 AM

181. No, I am pointing out there are vicious misogynists in the world

That there are incest advocates in the world. True, there are also (mercifully few) man hating sites. The problem is that a few of these MRAs seem to be attempting to subvert DU.

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Response to hifiguy (Reply #1)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 03:05 PM

3. False equivalency, kill the messenger, and

guilt by association...let the nerve wars begin.

The sites linked are not "reichwing" sites; they are from a blog in which misogyny is exposed, mocked, and ridiculed.

The last time I saw an mra site linked here was in a post titled: "the last time I hit a woman". I won't now provide the link just as I did not provide the link, to DU or the original source, the last time I posted an excerpt here:

My father explained that the world requires men only to be responsible and accountable for their thoughts, their feelings and their actions. Women, he suggested, are always permitted to blame others for what they think and feel and do. My mother, he explained, would maintain her belief that I had "made her hit me first" and would insist that I needed to change so that "she wouldn't have to yell at me or hit me ever again."

I remember saying that I did not think that was fair. My father explained that fairness is a male value which most women do not understand or appreciate.

During my apology to my mother, as my father had predicted, she demanded that I acknowledge that I had caused her to hit me, that her violence was my fault. My father had advised me not to argue that point even though, objectively speaking, it is not true.

He explained I could use logic and rationality to devise an acceptable response to her demand without having to lie to her by falsely admitting that I thought her violence was my fault. He advised me to keep my logic to myself, explaining that women do not highly value logic at the best of times and that they detest it when they are emotionally upset. (I told you that much of our discussion was not politically correct.)


This has to do with DU because of the quantity of mra talking points that are showing up on DU.

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Response to hifiguy (Reply #1)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 03:07 PM

4. Because there's a misogyny loophole in TOS and

There has been a lot of trolls exploiting it.
Also, you can also post all sorts of nasty stuff if you're relating a "personal anecdote" such as - my wife got over her being raped easily- why do other women obsess about it?

Stuff like that is judged to be okay here. And loads of us do find it disturbing.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #4)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 04:58 PM

44. That loophole was an intentional one.

It is a clear message to those of us who are not just fine with rape and misogyny, that we are not welcome here.

I asked for my payments to be stopped to DU over this. I have not yet received a reply. I don't expect to, to be honest.

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Response to LiberalLoner (Reply #44)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 05:56 PM

53. Good for you!

 

IF they ask why you want to curtail payments, please respond in accurate detail. They won't listen to women's pleas, but perhaps their own pocketbooks will cajole them into doing the correct thing.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #8)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 03:39 PM

15. Wow

I hadn't seen that thread before.

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Response to gollygee (Reply #15)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 03:45 PM

20. There are many women-hating men right here on DU,

several of whom made many appearances on that thread and one of whom believes all child support to be "male enslavement" and other such fucking horseshit. Disgusting that they're on a progressive site claiming to be Dems. They need to just switch parties already and be done with it.

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Response to hifiguy (Reply #1)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 03:34 PM

10. The proliferation of rape-apologia threads in the past week prove it has plenty to do with DU.

And the OP did NOT link to any dingbat sites.

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Response to Chorophyll (Reply #10)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 03:00 AM

178. +1

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Response to hifiguy (Reply #1)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 03:36 PM

12. Oh and lookie here, the banned troll spews a bunch of their crap and nobody even challenges it...

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Response to redqueen (Reply #12)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 04:28 PM

35. That stop violence against all people

comment in that thread was disgusting. That kind of thinking could lead to civilized behavior!


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Response to Riftaxe (Reply #35)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 04:44 PM

41. Except they're not addressing male violence, they're too busy hating women.

http://jezebel.com/5941876/mens-rights-activists-shocked-that-their-misogynistic-posters-are-being-torn-down

...

Controversy ensued after residents tore downor defaced many of the posters; localbloggers found at least a few people who, seemingly unfamiliar with the ethos of the MRM, disagreed with the community's hands-onresponse. "You don't heara lot about and that's the surprising part," one man told News1130. "It is very surprising that they're being ripped down. Definitely,they should go back up. You see signs up for everything around here and to select which oneswe put up and which ones we don't,it's a little bit ridiculous."

Soon, Ruth Mason-Paull,who describesherself as a "Slam Master" at Vancouver Poetry House onher Facebook page,created a Facebookevent called "Has Feminism Gone Too Far?" The community was incensed by the ignorant title and became further incredulouswhen Mason-Paull posted the namesof the only two confirmed speakers: Chris Marshall,described on the event page as a "long time father'srights activist and blogger aiming to shine light on the justice system with regardsto father's parental rights," and "John the Other," a blogger for Vancouver Men's Rights Activism,the group behind the posters.

It only takes a brief glimpse at Marshall's website to realize you're dealing with a troubled, unhinged person, regardless of what transpired between him and his ex-wife. Checkout some excerpts from what lookslike a court-ordered psychologicalassessment,which he posted infull for some reason: "Ms. Wallat (his ex-wife) had continued to work but Mr. Marshall wanted a more traditional relationship and indicated he did not want her to be in the workforce." and "Ms. Wallat became sleep-deprived and Mr. Marshall continued a lifestyle more inkeeping with a single man. He was out with his friendsfrequently and she wasconcerned with his drinking." Marshall clearly has anaxe to grind.

And here are John the Other's lovely views on rape:

"Maybe it's a mistaken accusation, she doesn't remember who she had sex with because she wasdrunk at the party or whatever. Some make accusations that have nothing to do with being raped;they're angry,or they got stood up, they wanted to have sex with a guy but he said no. The fact that our society doesn't have a balance for thisis a major problem. I'm not suggesting every womanyou meet is a loose cannon, but every woman you meet hasthe potentialto be one,because for those few who are nutty, there's no disincentive for them to go, oh, I was late for work. I know,I'lljust say I got raped."

...

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Response to redqueen (Reply #41)

Tue Dec 11, 2012, 01:35 AM

206. Ahh they are all the same then, like the dark folk

Consider me chastised.

*PS if you cannot find the derision in this post, don't bother bugging me, you are not worth it*

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Response to hifiguy (Reply #1)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 03:36 PM

13. Well.. there is one place I`ve seen links to this "manboobz" site...

hof

(kinda hard to take the OP seriously when she actually appears to think Manboobz is some sort of "MRA" apologists site)

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Response to opiate69 (Reply #13)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 03:39 PM

14. ...

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Response to redqueen (Reply #14)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 03:43 PM

18. ...

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Response to opiate69 (Reply #13)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 03:40 PM

16. Reading comprehension is important. (edited)

Unless you skimmed right past this part:

Then I discovered the blog Man Boobz whose stated aim is "Misogyny, I mock it". In fact it highlights the hateful attitudes espoused by such groups


edit to add: unless my own comprehension is off and I misread your post. Wouldn't surprise me a bit.

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Response to Cerridwen (Reply #16)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 03:49 PM

21. Well... either one of two scenarios are the case..

Either she thinks it`s an MRA apologetics site, which would be funny, or she thinks it`s an anti-MRA blog. If that`s the case then she gets to be put into the group of people who seem to realize that just having a blog and a bunch of time to write long-winded screeds is apropos of exactly nothing when it comes to whether they actually have a clue about whatever it is they`re railing against. Which would be just sad.

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Response to opiate69 (Reply #21)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 03:58 PM

25. I meant I might be misreading your post.

Yeah, you and I are reading at cross purposes.

I knew what the OP said and meant. I gave you the benefit of the doubt.

When you're finished trying to discredit manboobz, you can take on the SPLC. Good luck.

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Response to Cerridwen (Reply #25)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 04:07 PM

30. What`s to discredit?

"MRA are bad!!"

"Um.. according to whom?"

"Manboobz!!"

"And he is??"

"He`s a guy with a blog!!!!!"

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Response to Cerridwen (Reply #16)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 04:03 PM

28. Check out #3 here. But please do not click if you're depressed.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #28)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 04:40 PM

38. From the rawstory/Pandagon article

at your link:

It’s too late for the people involved in this situation, but I wanted to single it out as a good example of why it’s important to learn how to spot anti-feminist narratives in the wild, and learn to be skeptical of them. The notion that the police can’t be trusted to deal with a straightforward kidnapping case where the boyfriend is innocent of any wrongdoing is exactly the sort of tale MRAs spin. As this case shows, the likelier story is that he can’t call the police because he’s under some kind of restrictions for abusing his ex, and probably has an order not to contact her.

I mention this because I continue to run across men, even supposedly pro-feminist men, who are seduced by MRA claims that the court system is somehow anti-male and that it’s easy and common for women to make evidence-free false accusations that are immediately believed and used to strip men of all custody rights of their children. Perhaps, like this letter writer, they have male friends who swear this is what’s happening to them. But sad stories like the one above should serve as a reminder of the importance of rating real world evidence against your friends telling tales that are missing details and rely heavily on misogynist stereotyping to convince you. (emphasis added)


And what is the story the author wanted to highlight?

Last year my friend’s girlfriend disappeared with their two young children. He was desperate to find them, but he did not trust the police so he did not involve them. I saw his girlfriend a few weeks later when I went to visit my sister a few hours away from where my friend and I lived. She seemed to be working at a hair salon. I called my friend and told him I’d seen her and where. My friend tracked his girlfriend down, followed her home, and killed her and one of their kids before taking his own life. I had no idea his girlfriend fled because he’d been abusing her; nothing ever indicated to me that he was controlling or violent. Even so, I am haunted by my mistake. I have fallen apart over the past year. I cannot hold down a job or maintain relationships. Two innocent people are dead because of me, and a child will grow up an orphan because of me. No one knows my involvement in the case. I fear a counselor would push me to confess to the victim’s families. Maybe that is what I deserve: to be hated by them. I do not know what to do with myself.


Found at this link: http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/11/27/when-mens-rights-narratives-kill/ - When “Men’s Rights” Narratives Kill

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Response to redqueen (Reply #28)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 08:03 PM

201. Does the US take the lead in this damn violence or are other countries just as bad. It

really gives me the creeps.

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Response to Cerridwen (Reply #16)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 06:21 PM

60. that statement struck me as kinda puzzling

I mean when I first read it, it seemed like manboobz was "mocking" the idea that misogyny exists, and not mocking "the expression of misogyny"

Especially when it is followed by a seemingly contradictory statement "In fact ..."

Like the statements "Liberalism, I mock it". In fact, it highlights the hateful attitudes espoused by conservatives.

That is, it seems to say "In fact, the site does not mock liberalism." even though the first statemnt said it did.

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Response to opiate69 (Reply #13)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 04:00 PM

26. Try taking a course in reading comprehension

or possibly reading
Then I discovered the blog Man Boobz whose stated aim is "Misogyny, I mock it". In fact it highlights the hateful attitudes espoused by such groups
How does this in any way imply the site is an apologist site?

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Response to hifiguy (Reply #1)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 03:42 PM

17. Looks like the attention this group got taught people about direct links...

Of course, spewing the talking points went on as per usual.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1114553

Rails against VAWA, mouths some self centered support for reproductive rights. Everyone is fooled!

Nope! Still got his troll ass banned!

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Response to redqueen (Reply #17)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 03:55 PM

22. Do you REALLY want to compare group members?

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Response to opiate69 (Reply #22)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 03:57 PM

24. Uh, we were discussing MRA bullshit.

Try to keep up.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #24)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 04:10 PM

31. Oh, I know you`d rather not talk about your dearly-departed ex-leader...

But some of us won`t forget what was done. Sorry.

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Response to opiate69 (Reply #31)


Response to redqueen (Reply #17)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 08:18 PM

137. Ah, a thread from March. You really had to dig to find what you were looking for, huh?

Lots of interesting craaaaaaaaaazy stuff was posted around March-April, wasn't it? Good times, Good times.

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Response to hifiguy (Reply #1)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 06:00 PM

54. MRA talking points are sometimes used here by posters

It has happened in some of the recent rape threads.

I hope Gormy Cuss sees this and posts her SPLC Link.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #54)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 08:07 PM

122. Cerridwen linked to it downthread.

I wish to point out that this thread is about so-called men's rights groups, which are usually just anti-women groups.

It's important to keep in mind that such groups are only a subset of the Men's Movement. Other mens groups are focused on their changing roles in modern society and discussing how it affects their lives, their perceptions of self, their families and friends, etc. Many within the Men's Movement embrace feminist theory or at the very least embrace a discussion of how gains for women may have both positive and negative effects on their lives.



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Response to Gormy Cuss (Reply #122)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 08:10 PM

126. Correct, which is why I always use MRA Groups

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Response to intaglio (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 03:07 PM

5. I've been wanting to take this on

for quite a while. I thank you for taking this on.

I expect we'll both get "slaughtered".





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Response to intaglio (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 03:24 PM

6. As a male I find the Manboobs people quite disgusting.

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Response to Initech (Reply #6)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 03:30 PM

9. There are no "manboobs people".

It's one guy's blog.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #9)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 08:24 PM

142. There are, however, everyday people.

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Response to intaglio (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 03:26 PM

7. K&R

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Response to intaglio (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 03:34 PM

11. K&R

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Response to intaglio (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 03:44 PM

19. K&R You are absolutely right.

 

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Response to intaglio (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 03:56 PM

23. SPLC on "men's rights" hate groups

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Response to Cerridwen (Reply #23)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 04:01 PM

27. More on SPLC/MRA

It should be mentioned that the SPLC did not label MRAs as members of a hate movement; nor did our article claim that the grievances they air on their websites – false rape accusations, ruinous divorce settlements and the like – are all without merit.http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2012/05/15/intelligence-report-article-provokes-outrage-among-mens-rights-activists/

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Response to opiate69 (Reply #27)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 04:15 PM

33. In context:



A Voice for Men’s Paul Elam tried on a collegial tone at first. “The goals of SPLC and AVfM are quite similar,” he averred in open letter to the SPLC’s president, Richard Cohen. “We both work to identify groups who seek to oppress others, and inform the public of the inequities they would perpetuate.” But just days later, in a post headlined “Southern Poverty Law Center Linked to Hate Activity,” he changed his tune.

It should be mentioned that the SPLC did not label MRAs as members of a hate movement; nor did our article claim that the grievances they air on their websites – false rape accusations, ruinous divorce settlements and the like – are all without merit. But we did call out specific examples of misogyny and the threat, overt or implicit, of violence.


Now, I'm done playing along with your attempts at trying to Benghazi this discussion.

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Response to Cerridwen (Reply #33)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 04:29 PM

36. " trying to Benghazi this discussion"

What a perfect description.

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Response to sufrommich (Reply #36)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 04:43 PM

39. Thank you.

<insert wry smile smiley here>


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Response to Cerridwen (Reply #33)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 05:00 PM

47. I`m sorry if the actual words SPLC posted don`t jibe

with the inaccurate picture you wish to paint. Your "context" changes nothing. SpLC specifically and unequivically states that they did not claim all MRAs are hate groups. Despite how often certain people around here wish to bandy that claim about, it is demonstrably false. Reality`s a ... well it ain`t always nice.

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Response to opiate69 (Reply #47)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 02:56 AM

177. Your argument is weak and stinks of desperation. n/t

 

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Response to intaglio (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 04:14 PM

32. k&r

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Response to intaglio (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 04:30 PM

37. Salon also covered this issue, years ago.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #37)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 04:50 PM

42. Aaaaand, another quote from a link

you've provided:

Critics like Australian sociologist Michael Flood say that men’s rights movements reflect the tactics of domestic abusers themselves, minimizing existing violence, calling it mutual, and discrediting victims. MRA groups downplay national abuse rates, just as abusers downplay their personal battery; they wage campaigns dismissing most allegations as false, as abusers claim partners are lying about being hit; and they depict the violence as mutual—part of an epidemic of wife-on-husband abuse—as individual batterers rationalize their behavior by saying that the violence was reciprocal. Additionally, MRA groups’ predictions of future violence by fed-up men wronged by the family-law system seem an obvious additional correlation, with the threat of violence seemingly intended to intimidate a community, like a fearful spouse, into compliance.


The first time I read an mra on the "intertubes" was the late 90s. He was posting at an mra forum about custody issues and wanted to know, now that he was out of jail for "domestic violence", how he could work around the charges and still get custody of his kids. Further reading on my part and posting on his and it became obvious that he wanted to "punish the b*t*h" who was his soon-to-be-ex and the mother of his children. It was very ugly.

Then there were the mras I met in person.

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Response to Cerridwen (Reply #42)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 05:03 PM

50. Sorry...

Sometimes I get interrupted before I can pick the best parts to share, and I've shared this info before, so I just post the link.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #50)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 05:05 PM

51. No, I'm sorry. I didn't mean that to be snarky.

Now I read it, it does read that way.

I posted the piece I posted because it reminded me of that first internet encounter.

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Response to Cerridwen (Reply #51)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 05:24 PM

52. Oh ok...well thanks for picking some quotes to share...

it really is important stuff. Very important.

I trust you're aware of PAS, if you've been dealing with these characters for a while.

Nasty business.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #52)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 04:26 AM

184. I'm Not Familiar With PAS

could you post more here or send a pm to me please? Thanks

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Response to intaglio (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 04:44 PM

40. "War on Boys"

This article makes the claim that schools today favor girls.

— and boys across America are losing ground. It's a situation so dire that three dozen national experts have formed a bipartisan commission to bolster their proposal that President Obama establish a White House Council on Boys and Men. There's already one for females, focused on education, health and career.

The proposal and the research backing it say boys are at a crisis point in education, in physical and emotional health, in employment and in the lack of dads participating in their lives. Boys are losing ground in schools geared to how girls learn and too many are growing up without male mentors in either homes or classrooms. Name a daunting number — higher suicide rates, how many drop out of high school or graduate from college or even take medication for attention deficit — and girls fare better than boys.

It is not deliberate, but society seems to have declared a war on boys.


http://www.deseretnews.com/article/765552031/The-war-on-boys-young-men-are-facing-a-new-crisis.html?pg=all

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Response to davidn3600 (Reply #40)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 04:58 PM

45. Second string in to muddy the waters.

The republicans are waging a war on women. Who is waging the war on boys? Wanna bet it's the same people?

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Response to Cerridwen (Reply #45)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 02:11 AM

171. Muddy waters are quite useful for creating a false equivalence.

 



Especially when the audience isn't very good at critical thinking.

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Response to davidn3600 (Reply #40)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 05:02 PM

48. Yes, men suffer due the the patriarchy too

Men are not working in education enough because it's considered "women's work" and therefore boys don't have male mentors in the schools. I think the lack of men at home is caused more by the right wing radical free market and the effect that has had on poverty and crime.

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Response to davidn3600 (Reply #40)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 06:02 PM

55. That's an LDS paper btw

Just as an FYI.

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Response to davidn3600 (Reply #40)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 07:02 PM

70. It is painfully obvious that feminism has built an education system that is failing boys.

 

Something needs to be done to improve education for boys, or there will be dire consequences.

A society full of under-educated, under-employed young men is a power keg waiting to explode.

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Response to TrueBlueinCO (Reply #70)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 07:28 PM

85. parent your child. that goes a long way. two sons in high school, and i have been their best

advocate. they have taken advantage of the opportunities provided, not sloughed off education cause it isnt manly to be academic.

it is in the parenting.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #85)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 07:30 PM

86. Not that I disagree that parents are the most important factor,

 

but I don't think that answer would fly if it were girls that were being failed by the education system.

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Response to TrueBlueinCO (Reply #86)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 07:46 PM

95. no one is being failed by the education system. boys have been taught being dumb is cool

it use to be they could get out of high school and find a job that gave them a livable income. not so much today. on the other hands, it is being stressed to girls to get a degree cause there are no other options.

the schools do not fail the boys. not once have i seen where the school has been an issue with my kids education. i pay attention. up to high school, i made sure i was connected with all teachers to ensure my kids did what they were suppose. all the teachers are looking for is parental support. they so often do not get it and instead get excuses for little johnny.

the boys are entering college more than the past, just not as fast ass the girls are.

school does not fail our boys.

society does.

want to have that discussion, i am all for it.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #95)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 07:49 PM

98. I agree. Although I don't think parents

are actually favoring their girls for higher education. I only have a son,I made it quite clear to him at a very early age that education does not end with high school,college is a must.

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Response to sufrommich (Reply #98)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 07:52 PM

102. 2 boys. academics have always taken priority. yes. nt

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #95)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 07:52 PM

101. Yes, the education system that this society built is failing boys

 

When did boys start getting taught that being dumb is cool?

Who is teaching them this?

Why aren't girls being taught the same thing?

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Response to TrueBlueinCO (Reply #101)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 07:54 PM

105. We've been answering this like 3 or 4 times

But you're ignoring us.

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Response to TrueBlueinCO (Reply #101)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 07:55 PM

107. So you believe feminist trained teachers are

teaching boys that dumb is cool?

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Response to sufrommich (Reply #107)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 08:02 PM

115. I think that a feminist society

 

has created a culture where many men don't see where they fit.

Why get married when you will get pummeled in divorce court as soon as your wife gets a little bored?
Why be financially responsible for your kids when the government will pay for them?
Why act like a father to your kids that you get to see every other weekend if you're lucky?
Why put in the effort to get educated when you can just fuck off all day and all will be provided anyway?

These are definitely the unintended (or maybe they were intended) consequences of the system we have built.

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Response to TrueBlueinCO (Reply #115)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 08:05 PM

119. Dude, your cards are showing. nt

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Response to sufrommich (Reply #119)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 08:11 PM

127. The poster is now also pro white advocacy groups

and against affirmative action, as he stated downthread.

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Response to TrueBlueinCO (Reply #115)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 08:40 PM

144. well for all those rw talking points you should know the answer. personal responsibility. ya know.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #144)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 08:46 PM

149. He's PPR'd

Had a lot of right wing talking points down, even not related to this issue.

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Response to gollygee (Reply #149)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 08:50 PM

153. Nice to know. The admins overrode the jury on

this one:

> This is a right wing troll. Please read the whole sub thread.Yikes.
>
> JURY RESULTS
>
> A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Mon Dec 3, 2012, 08:14 PM, and voted 2-4 to LEAVE IT ALONE.
>
> Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Doesn't look right-wing to me. Just an counterpoint, in other words, a debate.
>
>
> Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
> Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: I do believe this is a right-wing troll. But I also believe that his arguments are so lame as to be laughable. Knock this one down with a half-reasoned argument; no need to lock every piece of idiocy you see here. Just counter it effectively.
> Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT and said: Agree that this is a right wing troll.
> Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: He's probably a troll, but he's holding his own in the argument.
> Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: He has a right to his opinion.
>

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Response to sufrommich (Reply #153)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 08:53 PM

158. OK, #5, #3, and #6

Being a right wing troll is reason enough to be hidden and PPR'd. He can have his opinion at FR. I don't think people understand the TOS.

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Response to TrueBlueinCO (Reply #115)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 08:46 PM

148. Hoo boy.

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Response to Starry Messenger (Reply #148)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 08:47 PM

150. And yet he's still here and posting away.

The new,improved DU.

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Response to sufrommich (Reply #150)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 08:49 PM

151. No, he's PPR'd

Not here anymore. They're on it.

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Response to gollygee (Reply #151)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 08:50 PM

154. Good

I emailed a MIRTer. He was a live one. I hope that helped some.

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Response to sufrommich (Reply #150)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 08:49 PM

152. I just checked--someone nailed him.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=295977

Must have been right as we were both posting. God, that was awful.

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Response to Starry Messenger (Reply #152)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 08:52 PM

157. Check my post #153. MIRT or the admins overode the original

jury.

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Response to sufrommich (Reply #157)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 09:07 PM

163. Huh, I don't think I've seen that happen before.

I hope that's a new feature.

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Response to sufrommich (Reply #107)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 09:19 PM

165. Evidently there's a book this is from--the author from AEI, right-wing think tank

http://www.amazon.com/The-War-Against-Boys-Misguided/dp/0684849569

The War Against Boys: How Misguided Feminism Is Harming Our Young Men
Christina Hoff Sommers (Author)

http://www.aei.org/scholar/christina-hoff-sommers/

"Christina Hoff Sommers, a former philosophy professor who taught ethics, is probably best known for her critique of late-twentieth-century feminism. She is also known for her extensive writings, among them Who Stole Feminism? (Touchstone Books, 1995) and The War Against Boys (Touchstone Books, 2001). Her textbook, Vice and Virtue in Everyday Life, a bestseller in college ethics, is currently in its eighth edition. She recently edited The Science on Women and Science (AEI Press, 2009) and is preparing a second edition of The War Against Boys."

It's a very anti-Dem, anti-Obama website. People who claim that feminism is the downfall of education are wingers, and I'm glad this fool was banned.

The woman who wrote this book is also the source for misinformation about sexual violence in the US. Veeerrrry interesting.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/cdc-study-on-sexual-violence-in-the-us-overstates-the-problem/2012/01/25/gIQAHRKPWQ_story.html

"How the CDC is overstating sexual violence in the U.S."

"The agency’s figures are wildly at odds with official crime statistics. The FBI found that 84,767 rapes were reported to law enforcement authorities in 2010. The Bureau of Justice Statistics’ National Crime Victimization Survey, the gold standard in crime research, reports 188,380 rapes and sexual assaults on females and males in 2010. Granted, not all assaults are reported to authorities. But where did the CDC find 13.7 million victims of sexual crimes that the professional criminologists had overlooked?

It found them by defining sexual violence in impossibly elastic ways and then letting the surveyors, rather than subjects, determine what counted as an assault. Consider: In a telephone survey with a 30 percent response rate, interviewers did not ask participants whether they had been raped. Instead of such straightforward questions, the CDC researchers described a series of sexual encounters and then they determined whether the responses indicated sexual violation. A sample of 9,086 women was asked, for example, “When you were drunk, high, drugged, or passed out and unable to consent, how many people ever had vaginal sex with you?” A majority of the 1.3 million women (61.5 percent) the CDC projected as rape victims in 2010 experienced this sort of “alcohol or drug facilitated penetration.”

What does that mean? If a woman was unconscious or severely incapacitated, everyone would call it rape. But what about sex while inebriated? Few people would say that intoxicated sex alone constitutes rape — indeed, a nontrivial percentage of all customary sexual intercourse, including marital intercourse, probably falls under that definition (and is therefore criminal according to the CDC)."

Looks like her fan club decided DU would be a cool place to troll.


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Response to Starry Messenger (Reply #165)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 12:14 AM

168. The Department of Education is not a right wing think tank

Something is wrong with the boys in this country. And it's not getting any attention. The DOE statistics show there is a problem.

The test scores for boys are going down. Their suicide rates and rates of depression is going up. Less and less boys are going to college. Less are learning new skills. Income for young males are declining, and unemployment is rising for that age group. They've lost motivation. They are developing a social anxiety. Many are sitting around not knowing where to go in life and become withdrawn.

Whether it is the schools, teachers, parents, curriculum, the economy, the media...I don't know. But the fact is that the statistics don't lie. The trends have been continuing for over 2 decades. It's not about being right or left wing. Something is wrong and society is right now ignoring it because ALL the attention has been on girls for the last 40 years.

It's starting to look like the Japanese youth in the 1990s and early 2000s. This was called "the lost generation" in that country and they are still struggling because of it. We also see it in parts of Europe especially Italy where an increasing number of adult males are sticking with their parents into their 30s and even 40s, delaying their careers, marriage, and fatherhood.

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Response to davidn3600 (Reply #168)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 03:07 AM

179. No, the problem isn't boy vs. girl.

It's SES of family.

http://www.schoolsmatter.info/2008/05/more-debunking-of-boys-crisis.html



The American Association of University Women, whose 1992 report on how girls are shortchanged in the classroom caused a national debate over gender equity, has turned its attention to debunking the idea of a “boys’ crisis.”

“Girls’ gains have not come at boys’ expense,” says a new report by the group, to be released on Tuesday in Washington.

Echoing research released two years ago by the American Council on Education and other groups, the report says that while girls have for years graduated from high school and college at a higher rate than boys, the largest disparities in educational achievement are not between boys and girls, but between those of different races, ethnicities and income levels.

In examining a range of standardized test scores, the report finds some intriguing nuggets about the interplay of family income, race, ethnicity and academic performance. For example, it finds that while boys generally outperform girls on both the math and verbal parts of the SAT, the male advantage on the verbal test is consistent only among low-income students, and that among black students, there was no consistent advantage by sex from 1994 to 2004.

<snip>



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Response to Starry Messenger (Reply #179)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 04:43 AM

187. Yes it is boy vs girl. We dont learn the same way at the same developmental stages

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Response to davidn3600 (Reply #187)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 09:16 AM

189. Your post is not a peer reviewed paper.

Science has differing views. SES is accountable for the differing results. This is known. Globally.

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Response to davidn3600 (Reply #187)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 10:40 AM

192. that is crap. there are four ways of learning. verbal, visual, and two others...

each child has their unique way and though boy tend toward one, it is not exclusive. teachers get this. i had my oldest sons kindergarten give me a boy on learning and different brain behaviors cause she immediately recognized an issue. SHE bought the book for me with HER money, for my son, a boy. for 6 yrs, kindergarten thru 5th grade i addressed the issues with teachers prior to son starting the year. for 6 yrs teachers did EVERYTHING to work wit son to his best advantage. fro 6 years working together we were able to provide tools for my son, to be able to make it in his world and succeed academically.

my niece on the other hand learns the way boys are "suppose" to learn.

about damn time we get out of stereotypes and do our damn job giving time, effort and work to our children, for their success.

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Response to TrueBlueinCO (Reply #101)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 07:57 PM

111. hmmm, ed ed and eddy. sponge bob. johnny bravo. disney channel. and lets look at ALL

they really stupid men movies you guys just love.

my kids were not allow to watch ANY of the shows that promoted dumb. period. end of story and not an option.

the tshirts in the store. almost all tshirts were about boys being lazy and dumb. not allowed to buy a one.

books at home from day one. every night until they could read. and then every night for a half hour until this day.

four different magazine subscriptions sit on dining room table for kids to read

dinner conversation every night. has to be stimulating and interesting.

who is dumbing down our kids? the parents that are not doing their job and society.

and the teachers are BEGGING for fuckin help with the kids and support from parents.

it is ridiculous to suggest there is some conspiracy with the feminist teacher to dumb down our boys. that ONLY makes there days all that much harder when a kid does not put in effort. how ridiculous is that thought.

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Response to TrueBlueinCO (Reply #70)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 07:32 PM

87. How has "feminism built an education system"? nt

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Response to sufrommich (Reply #87)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 07:37 PM

88. If you don't believe that our current education system

 

is run by women were heavily influenced by feminist thought while getting their degrees, then I would like to talk to you about buying a bridge in New York.

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Response to TrueBlueinCO (Reply #88)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 07:40 PM

90. It's run by women because teaching is considered a woman's job

And pays only a supplemental income, and in the patriarchy, women are very often only paid supplemental incomes.

And the pay keeps going down as public schools are privatized and charter schools reduce salaries even more.

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Response to gollygee (Reply #90)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 07:43 PM

91. and it is failing boys.

 

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Response to TrueBlueinCO (Reply #91)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 07:45 PM

93. That is the fault of the patriarchy. Not feminism.

Pay teachers more, encourage men to take education too and don't act like men should all be engineers and women should be the teachers, and there will be more male teachers to be mentors to the boys.

And then the economic policy of the past 30 or so years has been creating poverty and poverty-related crime and breaking up families. Fix that too so kids are more likely to be in two-parent homes.

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Response to gollygee (Reply #93)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 04:38 AM

185. I think this goes much further than the gender of the teacher

The teaching methods in schools today are geared more towards girls. Boys tend to be spatial and kinesthetic learners. Girls tend to be auditory learners. That's why girls tend to take better notes in a lecture-style of teaching. In lectures, boys tend to struggle with this, get bored quickly, and start to zone out. This type of instruction is incredibly difficult to a student with a learning disability or has attention-deficit disorder. 70% of special ed and learning disabled students today are male. Also, the content favors girls. The literature in English classes for example are stories that girls find more interesting than boys. When boys are presented with stories that are more geared towards their interests, their reading comprehension scores increase.

Budget cuts also hurt boys more than girls. When districts cut the school budget, the first things that are usually cut are things that benefit boys (music and physical education specifically). And when districts get more money, everyone wants raises for teachers and new textbooks. They don't replace the money where it was cut.
A lot of people think sports in schools should not be a focus and money should be spent elsewhere. But the statistics show that boys that are active in sports or do music have higher grades and higher self-esteem. Coaches also serve as strong mentors.

Another problem is girls develop literacy skills earlier than boys. And schools today are teaching kids literature and writing at younger and younger levels than before. Girls are excelling with this. Boys are having trouble because they are a few years behind in that mental development. So while girls are on pace, the boys are playing catch-up all throughout elementary school. If the boy is not exceptionally smart, this can haunt him in middle and then high school. And they may never catch up.

The problem with feminism is they are ignoring the problem and twisting it. They claim that girls are now doing better. And that's why it only looks like boys are doing worse. Unfortunately, studies show the feminists are wrong. Yes, no question girls are doing much better in schools. But boys are doing worse and worse.

There needs to be far more emphasis and more resources spent on boys especially with reading and writing in the elementary grade levels. And don't push boys through the system. They need to learn the skills so they catch up to girls by the 4th and 5th grade. But we probably wont see any of this happen. Because it is politically incorrect to help boys over girls.

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Response to davidn3600 (Reply #185)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 01:58 PM

196. Sounds familiar

 

Here in Finland people and educators are generally well aware of those issues. Also, at certain stage girls develop much faster than boys.

What sounds weird to me is what you claim about feminism. At least hear feminists generally don't deny those well studied issues.

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Response to TrueBlueinCO (Reply #91)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 07:49 PM

97. men do not want the teaching jobs because they do not pay enough and consider feminine jobs in the

lower grades. school administrations recognize the shortage and are actively trying to get men into the position. MRAs position on it is pay the men more.

ya, that is right.

pay the men more.

you know, cause it seems it has to be the mans right to be paid more. and btw, even in teaching, which is mostly female, the men are paid more from the start. but, the suggestion to get more men in is pay them even more.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #97)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 02:43 AM

174. Because the burden and expectation for supporting the family is still disproportionately

laid at the feet of men.

Many more women will turn down a man who does not earn enough money than the reverse and you probably know this.

It pressures men to go for the money. To assume that men do not want to teach is to fall prey to negative stereotypes about men, you know. That they do not care, that they are selfish, etc. and to give credence to all the GOOD things about women -they are nurturing and selfless.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #174)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 09:38 AM

190. no. it is the reality... i gave you the two top reason men have said they do not teach the lower

grades.

maybe it is that they have a women have a higher expectation. i wont argue that. and maybe it is equal that a man feels he is worth more, with education and male normally get, not accepting less. that is NOT a bad thing. in my view, that is a good thing. but... it is a reality. dont add the assumptions and emotions to this.

many women will not turn down a man that earns teacher pay, also.

and for them not to do it because it is not a masculine job would be the work of a patriarchy. and cheers to the man that says.... fuck that. i like teaching and works for me.

my youngest would do well in teaching and coaching. it is perfect for him. he has found no career that sit well with who he is. at dinner the other night he had mentioned coaching and i thought.... perfect. can be a lifetime of happy for him. we talked teaching and coaching kids. not a fortune, but livable, and happy. that works.

yesterday he expanded on the idea. good for him

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #190)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 10:08 AM

191. Teaching is a wonderful and noble occupation.

Part of the problem in America is that teachers are not given enough respect and especially elementary school teachers are not valued. It is not considered important and has been considered "nanny work" so it goes to woman and YES, that is sexist AND anti-education.

Here in Japan, where teachers are called "Sensei" -the same thing you call a Doctor, there are at least half men at the Elementary school level.

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Response to TrueBlueinCO (Reply #88)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 07:44 PM

92. You're conflating "feminist thought" with "failing boys" as

if it's an intentional manipulation. You're also perilously close to painting a woman's college education as merely feminist propaganda.Do you believe your child's education is propaganda?

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Response to sufrommich (Reply #92)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 07:46 PM

96. I believe that the influences of feminist thought

 

have resulted in the conditions that are failing boys in our education system.

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Response to TrueBlueinCO (Reply #96)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 07:50 PM

99. In what way? nt

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Response to sufrommich (Reply #99)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 07:56 PM

110. Look downthread

He admitted to me he advocates some MRA stances. I guess this is one, because this is one of MRA big things.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #110)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 07:59 PM

112. Oh,I agree. He thinks feminists trained in college

are the reason boys are lagging at school. NO MRAs at DU though,no sir.

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Response to sufrommich (Reply #112)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 08:10 PM

125. The evil feminists taking over the world by failing one male student at a time..

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Response to boston bean (Reply #125)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 08:14 PM

133. Shhhhhh! nt

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Response to boston bean (Reply #125)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 08:57 PM

161. HUSH!!!

I think they are getting wise to our evil planz for world dominashun.

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Response to sufrommich (Reply #112)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 08:12 PM

129. and doing it for low pay and public contempt

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #129)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 08:13 PM

130. But in the end,we rule the world!

(I've said too much)

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Response to sufrommich (Reply #130)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 02:05 PM

197. I'm cool with matriarchy

 

Just hope that it means society based on positive feminine values - which all sexes can support and share - instead of women imitating worst aspects of patriarchal hierarchy.

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Response to TrueBlueinCO (Reply #96)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 07:51 PM

100. yes. this is the position of MRA. also the RW. thank you for the example. you are anti feminist

on a progressive board.

are feminist, feminazi's? or is that a whole different group of feminists

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #100)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 07:54 PM

106. I am not "anti-feminist"

 

but I certainly don't consider myself to be a feminist.

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Response to TrueBlueinCO (Reply #106)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 08:01 PM

113. if you think feminists have a plot with teachers across the nation to dumb down boys, i would

certainly be anti feminist.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #113)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 08:04 PM

118. I don't think it's a plot

 

just a consequence of where it has brought us.

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Response to TrueBlueinCO (Reply #118)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 08:44 PM

147. my boys has found the advantage of the feminist that rejects the patriarchy. they do not have to

follow the patriarchal role that is demanded of them. that means at a young age they can be very articulate and not called names yet embraced. and they can excel in the reading comprehension courses, and english and history and be rewarded instead of told they must excel at math, not english.

all thru the system my kids were able to be who they were and define who their masculinity instead of allow patriarchy do it for them. and they have done a damn fine job. so whatever the reason, i am all for it.

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Response to TrueBlueinCO (Reply #118)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 08:53 PM

159. Explain the mechanism of how that works.

We're waiting.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #113)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 08:05 PM

120. That sounds like a conspiracy theory to me

Women are getting together and plotting ways to make boys dumber?

Women become teachers mainly because it is considered a woman's job and it's an easy job to have in the patriarchy. It doesn't pay that well, but works as a supplemental income. Women are generally primary caregivers for children, and teachers obviously work school schedules, so the women are around when the kids are off school.

They aren't doing it because they are plotting against boys. They're doing it because it makes sense in the patriarchal society we live in. I'd love to see more men teachers and more women engineers. Let's work on that, eh?

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Response to gollygee (Reply #120)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 08:39 PM

143. And here I thought the whole problem was tofu in their lunch.

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Response to DURHAM D (Reply #143)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 09:14 PM

164. It is the skirts with Birkenstock sandals that was the tip off for him.

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Response to TrueBlueinCO (Reply #96)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 02:34 AM

172. Care to provide examples?

Or are you just mouthing propaganda that you saw on other sites?

If so provide links to those sites

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Response to TrueBlueinCO (Reply #88)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 07:55 PM

109. lolololololol

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #109)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 08:21 PM

140. damn women getting degrees. Why did the men ever allow that?

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Response to boston bean (Reply #140)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 08:51 PM

155. bluestockings!

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Response to TrueBlueinCO (Reply #70)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 07:55 PM

108. Is that one of the MRA points you advocate

As per your post dpwnthread when you said you support some points MRA groups advocate for?

Just so other posters know, TBIC did state that further downthread.

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Response to intaglio (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 04:59 PM

46. Wow. You found horrible, offensive comments on some obscure Internet site somewhere?

I'm really, really shocked.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #46)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 06:03 PM

56. The SPLC is obscure?!

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #56)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 06:09 PM

58. I had in mind "manboobz.com" which is the source cited in the OP (nt)

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #58)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 06:54 PM

65. Try looking at SPLC

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #65)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 07:00 PM

69. And they cite manboobz.com (nt)

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #69)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 07:10 PM

74. Do you think SPLC is a legit organization or not?

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #58)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 02:43 AM

173. I also sited another site

FSTDT which, although it does not have a specific section devoted to MRAs does carry plenty of MRA posts from sites like "Stormfront" and the laughable "Free Republic". If you bother trying to look you will find other examples of single person blogs attempting to confront the sick minds that are fed by Mens Rights Activism.

Man Boobz is just one active blog attempting to shine a light under the stone where MRAs live

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #58)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 02:14 AM

204. So you are against hate group monitoring sites?

Ok ...
And you are a monarchist, at least whilst the majority of supports the monarchy ...

Why are you using the screen name of one of the greatest socialist politicians the UK has ever seen?

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Response to intaglio (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 06:09 PM

57. Manboobz? Lame mistakes are lame. I won't waste my time. nt

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Response to intaglio (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 06:10 PM

59. So rights for men are a bad thing?

 

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Response to TrueBlueinCO (Reply #59)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 06:23 PM

61. Rights for men have been in place since 1776.

At least if you're a white heterosexual man.As a woman, I started getting my rights in 1920 and it's been a slow crawl to equality since then.If you're a black person, you're rights were legalized in 1964 and are still being realized (and threatened).If you're a gay person, your rights are still on hold and being held hostage by the religious right.

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Response to sufrommich (Reply #61)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 06:42 PM

64. So you can't picture any way in which men are treated unfairly

 

and need an advocacy group to support them?

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Response to TrueBlueinCO (Reply #64)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 06:55 PM

67. Do you agree with MRA Groups?

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #67)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 07:00 PM

68. I'm sure that I don't agree with every position of every men's rights group,

 

but I do think that there are areas where there is a lot of room for improvement in the way men are treated by society.

Family Law is the most glaring example.

I don't think that it is a bad thing to have activist groups working to improve men's rights where it is needed.

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Response to TrueBlueinCO (Reply #68)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 07:02 PM

71. So you agree with some points that these hate groups advocate?

Because, as you know from this thread, SPLC has declared these group hate groups.

Very interesting.

Thank you for being so honest!

TrueBlueinCO
68. I'm sure that I don't agree with every position of every men's rights group,

View profile
but I do think that there are areas where there is a lot of room for improvement in the way men are treated by society.

Family Law is the most glaring example.

I don't think that it is a bad thing to have activist groups working to improve men's rights where it is needed.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #71)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 07:06 PM

72. Is every group that advocates for men a hate group?

 

And if so, what is so hateful about advocating for men?

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Response to TrueBlueinCO (Reply #72)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 07:09 PM

73. I asked you about MRA Groups

You answered me.

Again, thank you for your honesty in declaring your agreement with some points of MRA Groups. Most on here that agree with such groups won't publicly admit it.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #73)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 07:11 PM

75. I had to look up MRA to know what it means

 

Is every group that advocates for men an MRA?

How can tell which groups that advocate for men are ok and which are hate groups?

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Response to TrueBlueinCO (Reply #75)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 07:13 PM

76. I asked and you answered

I didn't trick you in any way or anything. I don't continue discussions with folks who keep moving the goalposts.

But, I am truly sincere about thanking you for being honest in your initial reply to my question.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #76)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 07:19 PM

79. I wasn't suggesting that I was tricked, and I'm not moving the goalposts.

 

I do see issues in the world where men are treated unfairly, such as the treatment of men in family court and the how the education system is failing boys, and some of these groups appear to touch on them.

I think that it is a good thing that there are groups bringing these issues up for discussion and are searching for ways to fix them.

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Response to TrueBlueinCO (Reply #72)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 07:19 PM

78. Is every group that advocates for whites a hate group?

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Response to LiberalLoner (Reply #78)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 07:22 PM

80. No, not necessarily

 

I think that there are reasoned and reasonable arguments against affirmative action that are not hateful.

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Response to TrueBlueinCO (Reply #80)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 07:25 PM

83. It's good to know you are in favor of white power groups! That helps me understand

Your position better, thank you for being honest about it.

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Response to LiberalLoner (Reply #83)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 07:26 PM

84. That's not what you asked, nor what I answered

 

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Response to TrueBlueinCO (Reply #84)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 07:46 PM

94. Well, I misunderstood I guess.

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Response to LiberalLoner (Reply #94)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 08:03 PM

117. except you didn't

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Response to TrueBlueinCO (Reply #84)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 08:03 PM

116. Well, that is what she asked and what you answered

What other pro white groups are there?

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #116)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 08:07 PM

121. I am not a "pro white", being Jewish I don't really fit in with them,

 

but I would like to know, is any group that advocates for white people a hate group by default? If so, why?

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Response to TrueBlueinCO (Reply #121)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 08:09 PM

124. You stated you are against affirmative action

And, how can a pro white power group NOT be a hate group? Whites are the race at the top of the power pyramid in the US. YOU tell ME what they need to advocate for?

I am shocked, absolutely shocked you aren't for affirmative action. MANY US universities had quotas for Jewish students well into the 50s and 60s.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #124)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 08:12 PM

128. I am against affirmative action

 

because I believe in the meritocracy.

I think that the best students, regardless of race, should be given the spots in the universities.

Is that hateful?

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Response to TrueBlueinCO (Reply #128)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 08:17 PM

135. Being anti affirmative actions is not progressive

Or democratic/Democratic. Or fair. It rewards the 1%.

Nice going!

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #135)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 08:19 PM

138. I never claimed to be progressive

 

but I am a Democrat, even if I don't agree with the party stance on affirmative action.

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Response to TrueBlueinCO (Reply #138)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 08:44 PM

146. ...

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Response to TrueBlueinCO (Reply #80)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 08:02 PM

114. So, you also think some white power groups are also okay



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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #114)


Response to TrueBlueinCO (Reply #123)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 08:13 PM

131. You just compared White Power groups to the NAACP

omfg



TrueBlueinCO
123. I don't think that being pro white necessarily makes a hate group

View profile
anymore than the NAACP, or la Raza. They advocate for their race, seems fine to me.

I join groups that advocate for my people (Jewish), I don't see anything hateful about it.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #131)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 08:16 PM

134. I didn't say white power, you keep saying that not me.

 

I do think that white people have just as much right to an advocacy group as any other race.

I don't really appreciate when I am told that my support for fellow Jews and Israel is tantamount to being in a hate group, and I suspect that there are white people who feel the same way.

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Response to TrueBlueinCO (Reply #134)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 08:19 PM

139. you said pro white groups

Liberal said white power, and you didn't disagree with her.

So, what is pro white/anti affirmative action groups, if not white power/empowerment groups? Hmmm.....? Name one.

And, oh, I know there are white folks who feel the same way. I don't associate with them.

lolololololol I said nothing against Israel, Jews, or anything else. Nice strawmountain.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #139)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 08:23 PM

141. So I have to denounce everything that is attributed to me, or I have said it by default?

 

I don't support white power groups.
I don't support black power groups.
I don't support latino power groups.
I don't support any "power group".

I do think everyone is entitled to have an advocacy group, including *gasp* white men, without being labeled a racist or hateful or whatever.

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Response to TrueBlueinCO (Reply #141)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 08:44 PM

145. But you ARE against affirnative action

And think white empowerment groups are the same as the NAACP. Oh, and think feminists are failing boys in school, and support some MRA group stances.

Gotcha!

So funny!

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Response to LiberalLoner (Reply #78)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 07:53 PM

103. Well done

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #71)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 12:24 AM

169. No, they did not. Please stop spreading this blatant falsehood.

It should be mentioned that the SPLC "*did not label MRAs as members of a hate movement; *"nor did our article claim that the grievances they air on their websites – false rape accusations, ruinous divorce settlements and the like – are all without merit.http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2012/05/15/intelligence-report-article-provokes-outrage-among-mens-rights-activists/

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Response to TrueBlueinCO (Reply #59)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 06:25 PM

62. no, but these groups are. they're the equivalent of white rights groups.

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Response to TrueBlueinCO (Reply #59)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 06:54 PM

66. lolololol

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #66)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 07:38 PM

89. I know, right?

 

Men wanting to be treated equally. Ridiculous.

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Response to TrueBlueinCO (Reply #59)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 07:18 PM

77. Are you in any White Rights groups? n/t

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Response to gollygee (Reply #77)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 07:23 PM

81. I'm not in any "groups"

 

Last edited Mon Dec 3, 2012, 08:14 PM - Edit history (1)

Well, I have a regular poker group. Does that count?

I forgot that I give to some Jewish groups. But I'm not "in" them.

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Response to TrueBlueinCO (Reply #81)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 07:24 PM

82. LOL

Not unless you wear white hoods at it.

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Response to gollygee (Reply #77)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 08:14 PM

132. He just posted white power groups are the same as the NAACP

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #132)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 08:17 PM

136. ummmm, no. I didn't.

 

You keep trying to attribute something along those lines to me, but it simply is not the case.

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Response to TrueBlueinCO (Reply #136)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 08:51 PM

156. Yes, you did, and were PRRed for it

Bazinga!

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #156)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 08:55 PM

160. lololol

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #156)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 09:03 PM

162. I'm happy for that ppr for sure

But I wish the ppr mentioned mra talking points or anti feminist.

Can't get everything you wish for though. Glad he's gone.

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Response to intaglio (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 09:20 PM

166. How does this appropriately pertain to Democratic Underground?

If it is another one of those "minority of men" issues, how specifically does this discussion pertian to DU?

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Response to Earth_First (Reply #166)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 10:00 PM

167. I think this thread is one example

MRA points are often posted here, and not just by 75-post newbies/

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Response to Earth_First (Reply #166)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 02:50 AM

175. No, this is a thread about a nasty group of haters

A group of haters that espouses ideas and acts that are inimical to the stated aims of DU and other liberal sites.

A group that has its own apologists on DU ...

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Response to intaglio (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 12:25 AM

170. Sometime's I have no idea what the hell is being talked about on this forum. nt

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Response to cecilfirefox (Reply #170)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 02:54 AM

176. Then go and inform yourself

Go and find about about Mens Rights Activism. Use a search engine, Bing, Google or whatever.

Wonder why a book by an advocate for incest was recommended as a good read by a long standing member of DU.

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Response to cecilfirefox (Reply #170)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 03:45 PM

199. That in itself should be a clue for you. Go forth and learn. n/t

 

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Response to intaglio (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 04:15 AM

183. Thank You for the valuable link to Man Boobz...

AND the discussion which I've just begun to read. I've noticed a lot of this kind of talk showing up on this site and others lately. There appears to be a push against women. Knowing the enemy is important and information is power, so being able to brush up on what's happening on the web and where it's coming from means a lot to me.

You've done us all a service with this. Please continue and don't be discouraged!

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Response to haikugal (Reply #183)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 10:44 AM

193. There appears to be a push against women.

that is what we recognize. and the net allows it to grow, get powerful and effective.

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Response to intaglio (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 04:42 AM

186. Thank you for helping me learn about our world

and helping me understand its inhabitants. The post reminded me of something I read somewhere when I was researching anger. " Anger is fear translated." These four words alone have allowed me to shift my thinking about those with angry souls and see them for what most of them are: afraid. It also helped me to assess and analyze my own angry moments and to face my fears. Thank you for speaking your mind while leading us to this discussion. LMSP

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Response to intaglio (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 08:07 PM

202. And there are hate-filled articles like this.

http://feministcurrent.com/6776/dont-much-care-about-the-men/

Which, upon the recent study showing the growing body dysmorphia growing among boys, took it upon itself to spread hate and anger at the thought there might be some people also concerned about boys. It is an absolutely pointless and hateful screed and exists only to whip up undeserved anger.

IMO, some Radfem sites should be considered hate sites and I haven't even shown the worst ones which are violently anti-transgender in some cases.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #202)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 02:23 AM

205. Nice find - take you long?

I'm actually surprised that no-one has cited the SCUM manifesto as a reason for MRAs. The fact that equivalent groups exist at both extremes does not excuse the extremists.

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