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Sun Dec 2, 2012, 09:46 PM

Here's why I haven't posted a god-damned thing about rape this week:

It's because I don't know a god-damned thing about rape.

I have never been raped. Ever. Moreover, in the fifty-five years of my life, there has never been a single, solitary moment in which the possibility that I could be raped has ever troubled me, or even occurred to me.

That blissful and carefree existence stands in horribly stark contrast to the life experience of those who have been raped, and those who live their life under the ever-present threat of rape (that would be all women, everywhere, for starters).

Those are the people who know. Not me. And I can never, ever presume to school them on this topic.

When a DU stalwart posted this photo last Wednesday, I would never have guessed that it would ignite a firestorm of controversy that would rage day after day:


http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1898292

Oh sure, I had my opinion about it - my uninformed opinion. I thought to myself, "Gee, I'm not so sure rapists can be dissuaded from rape by a seminar that explains to them that they shouldn't do it". I also thought to myself that maybe it's not such a bad thing to provide young women, new to a college campus, with advice on defending themselves.

I kept my thoughts to myself, though - because, when I look at the woman in the photo, I'm certain that she knows much more about rape than I do. She's got to - because I know nothing.

So I kept quiet, and I listened, and I learned a bit, maybe. And I will listen more, and I will learn more. And I will not try to speak over this woman - or anyone, anywhere, who has either known rape or known what life is like under the threat of rape.

96 replies, 10586 views

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Reply Here's why I haven't posted a god-damned thing about rape this week: (Original post)
Mister Ed Dec 2012 OP
CaliforniaPeggy Dec 2012 #1
freshwest Dec 2012 #4
Brickbat Dec 2012 #2
RobertEarl Dec 2012 #3
1StrongBlackMan Dec 2012 #57
GeorgeGist Dec 2012 #5
salin Dec 2012 #8
Tsiyu Dec 2012 #14
WCLinolVir Dec 2012 #19
bettyellen Dec 2012 #37
lbrtbell Dec 2012 #65
Dont call me Shirley Dec 2012 #71
SemperEadem Dec 2012 #73
Mister Ed Dec 2012 #81
Squinch Dec 2012 #6
salin Dec 2012 #9
leftlibdem420 Dec 2012 #7
salin Dec 2012 #10
mythology Dec 2012 #16
sheshe2 Dec 2012 #11
UtahLib Dec 2012 #12
Tsiyu Dec 2012 #13
femrap Dec 2012 #15
MadrasT Dec 2012 #17
MrModerate Dec 2012 #18
WCLinolVir Dec 2012 #23
MrModerate Dec 2012 #29
thucythucy Dec 2012 #53
excringency Dec 2012 #20
Mr.Bill Dec 2012 #21
yardwork Dec 2012 #22
Buzz Clik Dec 2012 #24
mzteris Dec 2012 #31
Buzz Clik Dec 2012 #47
Major Nikon Dec 2012 #54
mzteris Dec 2012 #89
Major Nikon Dec 2012 #90
mzteris Dec 2012 #88
spigerpid Dec 2012 #91
hrmjustin Dec 2012 #92
mzteris Dec 2012 #94
bettyellen Dec 2012 #41
Buzz Clik Dec 2012 #46
gollygee Dec 2012 #51
bettyellen Dec 2012 #56
Buzz Clik Dec 2012 #63
Gore1FL Dec 2012 #69
bettyellen Dec 2012 #75
Buzz Clik Dec 2012 #84
Tsiyu Dec 2012 #93
jeff47 Dec 2012 #45
Buzz Clik Dec 2012 #48
bettyellen Dec 2012 #58
JoeyT Dec 2012 #25
bettyellen Dec 2012 #36
JoeyT Dec 2012 #38
bettyellen Dec 2012 #39
Eyes of the World Dec 2012 #26
bettyellen Dec 2012 #34
WheelWalker Dec 2012 #35
JoeyT Dec 2012 #40
bettyellen Dec 2012 #44
UtahLib Dec 2012 #43
mzteris Dec 2012 #95
UtahLib Dec 2012 #96
etherealtruth Dec 2012 #78
zabet Dec 2012 #27
SheilaT Dec 2012 #28
Chemisse Dec 2012 #79
mzteris Dec 2012 #30
Starry Messenger Dec 2012 #32
bettyellen Dec 2012 #33
mercuryblues Dec 2012 #42
Chorophyll Dec 2012 #49
bemildred Dec 2012 #50
Zorra Dec 2012 #52
Phillip McCleod Dec 2012 #55
mercuryblues Dec 2012 #59
Neoma Dec 2012 #85
mercuryblues Dec 2012 #86
Neoma Dec 2012 #87
TorchTheWitch Dec 2012 #60
FedUpWithIt All Dec 2012 #61
seabeyond Dec 2012 #62
MotherPetrie Dec 2012 #64
treestar Dec 2012 #66
heaven05 Dec 2012 #67
ismnotwasm Dec 2012 #68
grantcart Dec 2012 #70
Dont call me Shirley Dec 2012 #72
etherealtruth Dec 2012 #74
Little Star Dec 2012 #76
Curmudgeoness Dec 2012 #77
Soundman Dec 2012 #80
bettyellen Dec 2012 #83
Raksha Dec 2012 #82

Response to Mister Ed (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 09:48 PM

1. Well said.

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Response to CaliforniaPeggy (Reply #1)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 09:52 PM

4. +1

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Response to Mister Ed (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 09:48 PM

2. Thank you.

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Response to Mister Ed (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 09:51 PM

3. A Talking Horse could not have said it any better

Women should not be afraid of men raping them. Or dropping bombs on them or shooting up their countryside.

We men have a long way to go and much to learn. If only we'd just sit down, shutup, and listen.

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Response to RobertEarl (Reply #3)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 11:02 AM

57. LOL ...

We men have a long way to go and much to learn. If only we'd just sit down, shutup, and listen.


But that, like reading the assembly instructions for the "build it yourself" entertainment center, runs contrary to our nature ... We ARE "take control" kinda folks, after all.

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Response to Mister Ed (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 09:52 PM

5. You lost me at ...

"Gee, I'm not so sure rapists can be dissuaded from rape by a seminar that explains to them that they shouldn't do it".

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Response to GeorgeGist (Reply #5)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 10:08 PM

8. I read that part given the qualification prior to that sentence

as if that thought had been challenged through the course of reading the ensuing conversations.

He qualifies:

Oh sure, I had my opinion about it - my uninformed opinion. I thought to myself, "Gee, I'm not so sure rapists can be dissuaded from rape by a seminar that explains to them that they shouldn't do it". I also thought to myself that maybe it's not such a bad thing to provide young women, new to a college campus, with advice on defending themselves.

This survivor, who was shaking in disbelief at some of what had been posted (as after decades, I had hoped that some attitudes had changed that might lessen the threat for current and future generations of young women), I read this OP as refreshing. Initially a little resistant. Open to reading and recognizing his experience left him with little direct experience and thus willing to read and learn.

A willingness for open discussion, rather than a quick dismissive.

While I appreciate your reaction to that point in his post (and agree with your hesitancy), I have to say - perhaps pollyannishly - that I find the OP a hopeful development to opening doors and minds. That is a far different space that the evening I came home to read DU - and found the "was I a rapist" thread - full of a tiny bit of reflection - and a whole lot of blame throwing (sluts came to parties so they were full game... sex after girls passed out was the full game... etc.)

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Response to GeorgeGist (Reply #5)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 10:31 PM

14. This is the thing

A lot of young men really don't know what rape is, as hard as that is to believe.

Studies of middle school boys show that an overwhelming number of them think that girls "owe" them sex for various reasons.

One in 16 college freshmen in one study openly admitted to raping drunk girls or committing date rape.

There are sme murky areas some young men don't get, either due to bad parenting, the lack of sex ed in schools or peer pressure.

Classes for young men can define those murky areas for them, can empower them to stand up to demeaning boys and men ( through role-playing and tips on how to respond ) how to help their friends - both male and female - who might be at risk of rape at parties, etc.

I have no idea why education is so frightening for some - even the mere idea of it/ It's like all those parents who want abstinence only educaton because they think their kids will go out and have orgies if they teach them the true facts of life.

. Without FACTS, young people are at the mercy of often dysfunctional community.

I can see no reason why anyone would object to classes on rape awareness especially for young men, I believe they would be one important step in combatting the epidemic of rape in our nation and in our military.

edit to add: sorry about typos; just lost my glasses pitching hay in the dark, durnit, and I can't see!

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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #14)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 11:10 PM

19. Good points. We need clear boundaries.

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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #14)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 12:55 AM

37. we had a slew of self-congratulatory posts from men who learned these things, and they never really

Last edited Mon Dec 3, 2012, 01:27 AM - Edit history (1)

cared to talk about the fact that many men don't. Didn't see a single *very pleased with himself* man here challenge the many guys who were so very offended by the idea of ANY education of men.

We've been asking for support, but a lot of great guys think creating OPs about how great they were brought up equals support.
It's not actually the kind of help we need here.

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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #14)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 12:36 PM

65. These young men are misogynists

You want to get into the minds of date rapists? Spend some time on 4chan's /b/ or /pol/ boards. They hate feminists, mock pictures of rape victims holding up signs (which say what their rapists said to them), and frequently make comments like, "All women deserve to be raped."

They also complain about any classes or lectures educating them about rape. After going to these classes, they go to 4chan to vent.

There's no reaching people like this. There is only prosecution. You can't ask a bully to be nice. You must teach them that there are consequences, by making them face consequences.

But when colleges routinely coddle the rapists and tell the victims to take medical leave (this absence endangers their education), these anti-rape classes and lectures are just paying lip service to the real problem.

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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #14)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 04:25 PM

71. 1 in 5 boys, 1 in 3 girls know sexual abuse aka rape

So 1 of every 5 boys knows what being raped is, by experience! That's %20 of the male population. That's a big chunk of men who really know.

What I would want to know is the percentage of men who sexually abuse others be them male, female, child or adult.

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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #14)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 05:33 PM

73. thank you

Without FACTS, young people are at the mercy of often dysfunctional community.


truth!!!

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Response to GeorgeGist (Reply #5)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 08:24 PM

81. I guess part of what I've been learning has to do with that.

If anyone had asked me a week ago, I guess I would have told them, with a fair degree of confidence, that rapists are people who just really want to hurt and humiliate women, and that's why they rape. Such men, of course, could never be redeemed by any seminar.

What I've been learning this week is that legions of women are encountering something else - something that doesn't fit my tidy notion. They're being raped by men who don't think it's rape, and who don't think they're doing all that much harm. Those, I guess, are the men who could be steered away from the crime with a little education. More to the point, those are the rapes that could be prevented by it.

I didn't understand that before.

It makes me glad that I was in no rush to tell any rape survivors what I thought I knew about rape. Because I'll tell you something: when I try to put myself in their shoes - when I try to imagine how it feels to be told that the way it happened to me isn't really the way it happens - the feelings are not pretty. They're deep, dark, infuriating, and gut-churning. And that's just imagining. The reality must be much worse.



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Response to Mister Ed (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 09:53 PM

6. Your post made me exhale a breath I didn't know I was holding.

Wonderfully said. Thank you.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #6)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 10:10 PM

9. same reaction for me.

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Response to Mister Ed (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 10:00 PM

7. Every time I learn I only feel ashamed.

 

I used to justify the fact that French women who collaborated with the German occupation during the Second World War were raped and publicly humiliated by resistance fighters and their supporters in a "good for those Nazi traitors" kind of way. Then I learned that working-class and peasant women were practically being lynched without any semblance of due process for possibly sleeping with German soldiers while 1%er elites who were proven to have collaborated with, fed, and supplied the Nazi occupiers pretty much got off scott-free in the name of "national interest" and I changed my tune dramatically.

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Response to leftlibdem420 (Reply #7)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 10:14 PM

10. rape during war, or after war in revenge - are horrific.

During the Milosevic reign of aggression and terror, rape was a frequent "tactic" used against women in conquered areas. Certainly this tactic during and in the aftermath of war should be considered war crimes. No?

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Response to salin (Reply #10)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 10:54 PM

16. Rape is a war crime under the ICC

The Jean-Pierre Bemba is the first trial at the Hauge centered on sexual assault. In light of the original post, the judges at his trial are all women.


http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/2012/08/22/rape-as-a-weapon-of-war-takes-center-stage-at-the-international-criminal-court/

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Response to Mister Ed (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 10:18 PM

11. Thank You! n/t

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Response to Mister Ed (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 10:20 PM

12. Thank you for opening that door

I can only hope that many at DU will follow your lead in order to begin the healing process so badly needed.

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Response to Mister Ed (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 10:23 PM

13. Just:




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Response to Mister Ed (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 10:52 PM

15. You have no idea how

 

long I have waited to hear those words.

Thank you so much for the respect you have for women.

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Response to Mister Ed (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 10:54 PM

17. Thank you.

That brought tears of gratitude to my eyes.

Thank you so much for this.

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Response to Mister Ed (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 11:00 PM

18. I've never felt at risk of rape either . . .

But several of the women I've known (and still know) have more experience than I care to imagine about the subject. And they have talked about the subject to me.

So, as a human being, and a man, I do have enough information to form a point of view.

And my response to the reposted photo above is that the young woman has got it wrong. It shouldn't be "instead of," it should be "in addition to."

Of course all people, and men in particular, and young men even more so, need to be taught that their urges don't translate into rights. And all people, and women in particular, and young women even more so, need to be taught that there are people out there who will hurt them if they can. And that learning strategies to avoid being hurt is prudent.

Frankly, such teaching strikes me as uncontroversial.

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Response to MrModerate (Reply #18)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 11:37 PM

23. "Urges" don't usually determine whether a person rapes.

Most rapists are driven by control issues, anger, a need to dominate and humiliate, depending on pathology. We need to stop promoting the misguided idea that sexual urges out of control are responsible for rape. Studies show that men who rape women have a significantly lower opinion of women and proportionately do not have an orgasm.
I agree that we should educate both men and women. But the emphasis should be clear that rape isn't tolerated and has significant consequences. Too often it is. Just like child abuse.

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Response to WCLinolVir (Reply #23)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 12:04 AM

29. "Urges" covers a lot of territory, and I meant it to . . .

The "urge" to control, to dominate, to humiliate, to hurt. If you think "urge" is the wrong word, then please propose a substitute.

Also, outside of a very freaky and tiny subset of the population, where is rape and child abuse tolerated? Even under circumstances (the family, for instance) when a snarl of obligations and dependency prevents the victims speaking out, I wouldn't call that "tolerated."

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Response to MrModerate (Reply #29)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 09:25 AM

53. Well, two places where "rape and child abuse"

were tolerated, until very recently, were Pennsylvania State University, and the Roman Catholic Church. College administrations across the country have been notorious for covering up sexual assaults on campus, as opposed to reporting them to the police. Rape in prison, rape in institutions for people with disabilities (including schools for Deaf children), rape in the military, all have been well documented.

I personally wouldn't consider the Roman Catholic Church, colleges, the military, etc. "a very freaky and tiny subset of the population." And I would consider knowing about particular rapes, including the rape of children, and doing NOTHING to stop it other than perhaps reassigning a particular priest to another parish (where he can rape again) to indeed be "tolerating" such abuse.

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Response to Mister Ed (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 11:27 PM

20. I too have never in my fifty plus years had to worry about getting raped, but

I had a friend in the army years ago who was sexually assaulted by a fellow soldier. I felt the gut wrenching anguish of not being able to comfort her as the thought of even talking to a man at the time filled her with dread and hysteria (let alone just holding her hand in peace and quiet in an attempt at assurance). No charges were ever brought. I have known other women who have suffered the same awful fate. The first thing the fellows out there need to know is the commonality of sexual assault in this country. I have two daughters that I had to let out of the house to enter a world that contained perverts and date rapists. I laid in bed awaiting the sound of their keys in the door and listened that everything was okay as they went to bed. I know I would be in jail today if one of those boys will be boys incidents had happened to them. The boys of the world need to be taught that unless one is implicitly invited, keep that thing in the pants. No ifs, ands, or buts. You aren't owed ONE SINGLE THING. Get over your inflated and false sense of entitlement. That, or go to jail and find out how awful rape can be for yourself.

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Response to Mister Ed (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 11:30 PM

21. I don't have much to say here

because my personal morals are so far removed from the concept of rape that I just draw a blank on it. I cannot comprehend the idea of gratification from sex if the woman does not desire it. I have also never had a family member who has experienced it. I don't know if I was born this way, educated this way, or what. It's just a very foreign topic that I cannot grasp. Anyone else feel this way?

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Response to Mister Ed (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 11:32 PM

22. Great post! Thank you.

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Response to Mister Ed (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 11:39 PM

24. Which do you think would be more productive:

Teaching 18-year-old women who have never been away from home how to avoid being raped, or teaching 18-year-old men to not rape?

Kinda depends on who is doing the raping, right? And why they tend to rape women, right? Is rape an act of ignorance or an act of violence?

My university does not teach young women that getting raped is their fault, but teaching young women how to avoid putting themselves in jeopardy makes a helluvalot of sense.

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #24)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 12:15 AM

31. Wouldn't it make more sense to teach men/boys

NOT to rape?

You sound like an apologist. Boys will be boys kind of post. Maybe I'm reading this wrong. If so,I apologize..

And yes, we should ALL always be careful of our surroundings, but women? Well, women are more often victims no matter what they do. Or don't do.

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Response to mzteris (Reply #31)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 08:05 AM

47. "You sound like an apologist." More DU hysteria.

This is why I very infrequently visit this place is because there are so many people like you who have no ability to actually read what is written. They/you are so intent on stirring up their own outrage that they lose the ability to think.

So stop! Read, think. Then post.

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #47)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 10:13 AM

54. I think you hit the nail on the head

I'm not going to suggest any one particular group is subject to this behavior. Everyone is. The propensity to jump to conclusions is a vice that most people share. It's important to recognize the urge to immediate outrage exists in all of us. Quite often that behavior ends badly.

So yes a more rational outlook requires reading, thinking, asking relevant questions, then going to outrage if the situation really does warrant it. Those are virtues most of us would benefit from.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #54)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 11:42 PM

89. Lets put it this way

NOT raping is a virtue.

Being ą victim of rape does not mean one is not virtuous.

The fact that the predominąte victims of rape react more strongly should tell you something. The fact that members of the group most responsible for rape can't seem to grasp the outrage is not only very sad, but puzzling. (No, no one is accusing anyone here of rape, just maybe a lack of understanding . Or compassion. Take your pick.

Hysteria? No. Unfortunately too many of us with firsthand knowledge and experience.

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Response to mzteris (Reply #89)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 12:28 AM

90. You are suggesting things I never claimed and never would

I'll thank you to stop. If you want to address those claims, make them with those who actually made them, but until you've sincerely asked me if that's what I meant you just can't assume those things, argue from those poor assumptions, and then simultaneously claim you're not part and parcel to the problem with people jumping to conclusions. Whether you realize it or not, you're simply providing evidence to that person's assertion which is the only thing I was addressing.

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #47)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 11:29 PM

88. Hysteria?

Question: would you have used that word if you thought I was male?

I read exactly what you wrote. And it still sounds like women should bear the responsibility.

If I am misinterpreting you, please correct me. Maybe further explanation Would help.

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Response to mzteris (Reply #31)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 11:03 AM

91. How would you do that?

Would you make it illegal and via a number of high profile cases make it clear that rape is very very very wrong?
Would you make it so that every rapist in popular culture (movies, books, etc) is undeniably a villian?
Would you put up 100s of PSAs that all state this fact unequivocally?

What more would *you* do to teach men/boys not to rape?

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Response to spigerpid (Reply #91)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 01:53 PM

92. Welcome to DU!

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Response to spigerpid (Reply #91)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 08:27 PM

94. increase respect for women

for instance on this "very liberal website" - the degree of hostility and misogyny reeks.

Getting rid of the sexualization of women - and little girls in media, clothing, etc. Increasing the visibility of women who aren't just sex objects. Increasing the OPPORTUNITY for women to break through the glass ceiling. Decreasing the childhood expectations, clothes, & toys that define "little girls" one way and "little boys" another.

Increasing the RESPECT for females.

Decreasing the attitude "omg I'm horny and I'm a guy and if I can f a girl then I'm such a stud. but of course any girl who might do that is nothing but a "whore".

Stop viewing and treating women as THINGS to be used. As subservient baby makers who "satisfy their man" and if they don't, well hey - he can go get it elsewhere - but she better not! of course. gotta protect that gene pool.

Teaching boys EMPATHY. Teaching boys that girls as their EQUALS. Teaching boys that "sex" is not a tool nor a weapon to be wielded. It is NOT a RIGHT!!! Getting society and media on board with that message.

As long as there is a market for cheap crass bullshit oppressive behaviour against women, it will continue. As long as we have religions where women are LESS THAN men and should ALWAYS bow to the man's superiority, there are going to be ongoing problems.

These are off the top of my head and my head is splitting right now so it's not as profound nor as detailed as it probably should be.

Bottom line. You can't just teach that it's "very very wrong" - you have to teach them to respect women. And yeah, it would be nice if every rapist in popular culture WERE treated as "undeniably the villain" - but you know what, it's NOT. Men getting it are studly, girls getting it are tramps. Men should use any means necessary to "score" and hey - woohoo - high five. Popular culture does NOT treat rapists as villains.

And you DO understand that it doesn't have to be "forcible rape" to BE rape, right?

It's not about PSA's. It's about changing society as a whole and the POV of everyone.

*I* have taught my boys that women are not things to be used for their own gratification. That women - people - are to be treated with respect. That they should respect themselves enough to not hurt/use another person by using them for their own ends. I think I've been pretty successful so far in that regard. I've also taught them it is not beyond the realm of possibility of being the VICTIM of rape - whether from a male or female. Getting drunk, getting high. Having someone slip you a little something. Girls who will throw themselves at you to get you into bed and get pregnant (especially if they think you're "somebody"). Males who might find you very attractive (if you knew my sons...) who might go to unpardonable lengths.

And of course I taught my daughter to be safe, be careful, etc. 'cause unfortunately society isn't there yet and yeah, she needs to be careful. Sad, that I have to teach my children to protect themselves because some people use sex as a weapon, as a tool, as an indifferent act that has no meaning beyond a very few moments of "pleasure".

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #24)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 01:00 AM

41. this either/ or thing has got to go. Educating our youth is key.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #41)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 08:01 AM

46. The sign in question (in the opening post) demands either/or. Tell her.

I believe that is why her sign pisses people off.

Sure, teach freshmen that rape is wrong (this needs to be taught?) -- tell them no means no, inappropriate speech, inappropriate touching, etc.

But abandon rape awareness/prevention for the women? WHY?

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #46)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 08:39 AM

51. I didn't read that sign that way at all

It says her problem is that students are taught one INSTEAD of the other. It doesn't seem to suggest to me that teaching one AS WELL AS the other would be a problem. Her complaint is that they're taught one but not the other.

If we're reading the sign differently, it would explain some of the major communication issues I guess.

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #46)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 10:45 AM

56. If you want to fixate on (how YOU read) the sign or semantic

To the exclusion of discussing the issue, I'm not going to take the bait.

It's an abbreviated protest sign - we KNOW the intention is to promote MORE awareness and education. Did you really need to explain that.

But at least you admit you think educating men is a waste of time. Care to explain why you think explaining the gray areas of the law- which many are confused about- would hurt?

Moving past the sign- Why is more awareness and education a bad thing.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #56)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 12:36 PM

63. I said nothing of the kind or anything similar.

Good luck in your quest to find someone to scream at.

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #63)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 01:57 PM

69. It has been a long quest for her

She tried the same schtick with me yesterday.

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #63)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 06:35 PM

75. Ha ha, the hysterical woman trope. Being on to your BS

Does't make me angry, just smarter than you.
Smart enough to see you have no interest in actually discussing the topic, other than lame attempts to tear it down over your own deliberate misreading. Just as you misread my tone.
For future reference, THIS IS SCREAMING, and I wasn't. I couldn't give enough fucks to scream in reply to such lameness.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #75)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 10:22 PM

84. Oh, fuck. Now you trot out this meme. booorrrrinnnnggg!

Just read my posts and respond to what I said, not the shit you make up.

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #84)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 03:02 PM

93. The sign doesn't say either/or


You interpret it that way.

Swaying the argument over to that minor point is a fine use of time, however.

Argue what the sign really means and not what it really means.

Well played.









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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #24)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 02:53 AM

45. Why is there only one class to be taught?

Teach the young men that raping the drunk girl is not OK, and other similar lessons.

But no class is 100% effective. So also teach the young women some rape avoidance strategies.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #45)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 08:06 AM

48. Why did the woman with the poster say that "don't rape" should be taught INSTEAD?

Her language, not mine.

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #48)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 11:06 AM

58. She's asking WHY this is society's default position! Kind of obvious to me.

And hundreds who have read the sign. That's why she thinks its a cultural problem.

Glad I could help.

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Response to Mister Ed (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 11:51 PM

25. Rock on dude.

The only thing educating rapists with a seminar could accomplish is to expand what entitled young guys think of as rape. (e.g. sex with a passed out woman, even if she drank herself unconscious rather than being drugged.) It might not lower incidences of stranger or violent rape, but it could conceivably lower acquaintance rape rates.

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Response to JoeyT (Reply #25)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 12:44 AM

36. acquaintance rapes are like 85%, and you post like lowering the rate is an afterthought.

Educating everyone is important, and merely for saying we need more education- your sisters here are attacked.
Think about that.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #36)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 12:55 AM

38. Very good point.

I'd imagine the rate of acquaintance rape is even higher than that among that age range.

For evidence that education might lower the rate of acquaintance rape, we need only point out that guys often *brag* about having done it, because they don't think it's rape. No one is going to go "Hey guys, I'm a rapist! Wooooo!".

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Response to JoeyT (Reply #38)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 12:59 AM

39. Thank you. Many girls and boys are lacking education, and they are mired in confusion caused by

the manipulative pieces of shit that want to use them. Knowledge is power. To see so many men here closed off to that idea has been incredibly disheartening. We are better than that.

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Response to Mister Ed (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 11:52 PM

26. Maybe they should make rape illegal

 

and tell everybody.

Cause I'm sure not everybody heard.

Do I really need to know what its like to be a victim of ANY type of crime in order to understand why I am not doing it?

Seriously, I don't hate you, but I don't have any care of your pains and I don't want to empathize with you. Sorry.

I will fight to the death your right to free speech, but it doesn't mean I give a shit about what you are talking about, nor does it mean I expect you to care what I say.

I just don't like this sexism that is trying to make me feel like my penis is a weapon and I should learn to feel guilty about it. Its not, and I won't. And I don't feel guilty about what someone else did if I was not in a position to stop them.

I don't need to know about rape to have an opinion about some of the ugly anti-male group-think which is spreading across DU.

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Response to Eyes of the World (Reply #26)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 12:42 AM

34. You "don't have any care of " the 30% of rape victims that are under 11 years. Yet you expect people

Last edited Mon Dec 3, 2012, 02:39 AM - Edit history (1)

to consider how it hurts you to feel guilty. See, that's the entitlement thing many here deny exists.
This is what it looks like.

The part about worrying about women not liking you - it's not that rapists exist, it's your attitude. Seriously ugly and selfish attitude.

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Response to Eyes of the World (Reply #26)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 12:44 AM

35. Actually, this kind of "group-think" is why I donate to DU. Be part of the solution.

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Response to Eyes of the World (Reply #26)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 12:59 AM

40. Actually everyone hasn't heard.

Quite a lot of the dudebros that get convicted of acquaintance rape get convicted of it because they openly brag about it. Even going so far as to post pictures of it. They don't think having sex with a passed out woman is rape.

I certainly don't feel guilty about having a penis, but I'm also not running around trivializing rape like some people, so I don't have much of a reason to feel guilty.

Edited to add: By the way, your statement is virtually identical to right wing racists screaming about the goddammed leebrals trying to make them feel guilty about minorities. Just thought you'd enjoy knowing that.

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Response to JoeyT (Reply #40)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 02:38 AM

44. Dude's for education! Great post

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Response to Eyes of the World (Reply #26)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 01:27 AM

43. How very sad that you have no care for anyone elses pain.

Have you never considered that you are a part of the human experience and that we are all better off if we care about one another? Has there never been a time in your life when a person has shown compassion or concern for your pain? You seem to find it difficult to see past your own ego. I sincerely hope there is no one in your life who will ever expect compassion from you. Hey, not your problem. Right?

If you truly don't give a shit about the subject of rape and the pain of others, why do you feel compelled to contribute such a hateful declaration?

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Response to UtahLib (Reply #43)

Fri Dec 7, 2012, 08:33 PM

95. let's just say,

I've always had my suspicions about this one's POV about the world around them. Lack of empathy. Lack of caring. No concern for others at all except self.

Who does that sound like?

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Response to mzteris (Reply #95)

Sun Dec 9, 2012, 01:01 AM

96. Thanks for the heads up. I've been lurking longer than I've been posting.

I still observe more often than I post and am learning to sort through various subtleties (and some who aren't so subtle) on DU. I must say, some comments on the many rape threads have left me a little confused and disheartened.

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Response to Eyes of the World (Reply #26)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 07:26 PM

78. I don't think it is "ugly anti male sentiment" that is spreading across DU

"I will fight to the death your right to free speech, but it doesn't mean I give a shit about what you are talking about, nor does it mean I expect you to care what I say."

I am so glad I don't feel the way you do when confronted with "isms" (racism, antisemitism, sexism ... any "ism"). I care about the pain of others ... I care about injustice experienced by people.

I do not feel that I am being targeted personally when a larger group (or subset) of a group I am identified with is identified as the primary perpetrators of bigotry or bias.

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Response to Mister Ed (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 11:55 PM

27. THANK YOU!

YOU make DU a good place.

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Response to Mister Ed (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 11:57 PM

28. thank you.

Many years ago I had a conversation with a friend, a man, who is six feet tall. I'm a female, just 5 1 1/2. back then I weighed perhaps 115 pounds, tops. We were talking about feeling safe. He did understand that as a male, somewhat taller than average, he did not have the same concerns of a smaller female.

He was the kind of guy (and still is) who was concerned about the safety of women. He once related a story of changing busses in downtown DC, and seeing a woman waiting for the next bus, very late at night. According to him, he approached her and said something like, "Please do not misunderstand me. This is not a safe area for a woman alone. I am offering to wait with you until the next bus arrives." She was not a local, had no idea how sketchy that neighborhood was, and accepted his offer. He simply stayed until her bus arrived, saw her board, and left.

This man has been my best friend for forty years now.

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Response to SheilaT (Reply #28)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 07:53 PM

79. What a kind and caring man. That is lovely. nt

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Response to Mister Ed (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 12:06 AM

30. Thank you.

That's ll I can say at this point.

You don't know and you don't know that you don't know. It's those who think they know, but will never ever know what it's like.

YOu don't even have to be an "actual" victim, to be a victim. (Legitimate rape? "Real" rape????)

Thank you for understanding that. You'd think that most men here, liberals, would. It's more than sad that we have to have this debate here on DU.

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Response to Mister Ed (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 12:23 AM

32. k&r

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Response to Mister Ed (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 12:36 AM

33. Please consider joining in and modeling behavior supportive of a true dialog next time.

We could have used your voice on these threads... We have been begging for support, but very few men who are truly supportive joined in. It makes DU suck.

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Response to Mister Ed (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 01:25 AM

42. thank you.

One of the 1st things they can teach is that f-ing a passed out girl is rape. I would have thought it was a no-brainer. A study showed that wasn't true. College males were given questionaires with different scenerios of rape. Even though a shocking number of them answered yes to those questions, when asked if they ever raped a woman, they anwered no. IOW men (by men I do not mean ALL men, I specifically mean the ones in the study and I am sure there are a few in the general population) will admit to rape if it is not called rape.

My pc is running very slow tonight, so I can't look it up in a timely manner. If it is not posted by someone else by the Am, I should have enough speed to look and post.

There is a culture (by culture I do not mean the male culture in its entirety, I mean a sub-culture) that does protect a rapist. There are friends of these males at the parties that enable them, join them sometimes and protects them to varying degrees.

When I first moved here I there was a case from one of the local colleges. A female reported a rape, her assailant was a football player. There was some talk about how would this team ever make it to a Bowl game, without this player, what it means if he got suspended, kicked off the team or found guilty and went to prison. He was arrested but it never even went to trial. She transfered to an out of state college and he stayed on the team. What was lacking in the dialog was any compassion for the victim.

This is just one example of the culture that needs to stop. Some men get that others do not. Some men get all outraged for daring to suggest that men learn how to change their behavoir and language to not make a rapist feel comfortable, shunned if you will. Some men already do this and trust me I am very thankful for that. What women are asking is that they spread that knowledge. By doing so, they hopefully would make a rapist or would be rapist feel very uncomfortable around them. Their circle of protection will get smaller and smaller. I don't believe it will stop all of those men from raping, but maybe they will get caught and punished before they accumilate a high number of victims.

Just teaching women how NOT to get raped is not working. Besides that; it places the blame for being raped on the woman. Gee, if only she had known that guy's real plan for their date was to slip a rupee into her drink and rape her. Rapists do not come with a big R marked on their forehead. Over 80% of the victims were raped by someone they knew and 18% were raped by a stranger. These men that rape do not live in a vacuum, they have friends. The friends may not know that these men are rapists. But do men really want to be friends with someone who probably treat women as nothing more than a sex object, degrade women and a lack of respect towards women. Do men (by men I mean all men) really want to bring that type of man around their girlfriends, wives or daughters? I don't believe that all men who exhibit a lack of respect towards women are rapists. I still woudn't want my husband to bring him around our family. Do I believe by doing this that rape will be erased, no. However I do believe that the statistics will come down. Some men get mad at the idea that women have to treat every man as if they are a potential rapist, even though women know rapists are a small percent of the overall population. They just don't come with a big R branded on their face for us to see.


What I have shockingly found out in the past few days is that some men say they do, then go on to belittle a woman's experience with this culture. They will basically tell you: I don't hang around men like that then go on to say, this was a college study men, so of course the rates will be high, in the real world the statistics drop, so why should I worry about it. But really I don't see any men who would degrade women. Sure the percent of women who get raped in college is high, but when you factor in all the female population the pecentage goes down. I am insulted that you say ALL men, I already do that. By the way there is no culture of rape, because I have never seen it in all my years of doing xy and z. Yet they can't figure out why they aren't believed. If they can't recognize it in themselves, how will they recognize it in others? Hence men need to learn. (Again, some men already know this)

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Response to Mister Ed (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 08:27 AM

49. K&R and thank you.

I'll never forget this little experiment from one of my own college sociology classes in the 80s. The professor asked the class if it was ever okay for a man to rape a woman, and fully half of the guys thought it was. They didn't think it was okay to grab a stranger, but they had clearly already absorbed the idea that sex is something that men take and that women provide, and that if a woman agrees to socialize with you in any way that sex is somehow "owed" to the man.

I was eighteen, sheltered, and pretty shocked. These guys could have used a seminar. The first thing I would have taught them is that women and girls are human beings with desires of their own, and that if a women responds to you with anything less than enthusiastic consent, you should back off.

Anyway, from what I've read here in the last few days it looks like not much has changed.

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Response to Mister Ed (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 08:35 AM

50. Yep. nt

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Response to Mister Ed (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 09:04 AM

52. That's a very reasonable perspective.

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Response to Mister Ed (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 10:34 AM

55. idea for the proposed 'don't rape' seminar

 

tell the young men that if they attempt rape, their victim has the right to defend herself with lethal force. teach that the cost of attempting rape may be one's own life not just the social consequences and criminal penalties.

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Response to Phillip McCleod (Reply #55)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 11:14 AM

59. How do you suppose women do this

Insert a gun in their vagina and if someone tries to attack them, they can snap their fingers to make the gun go off? What if they have been drugged? What if the rapist is 6' and 250lbs and the victim is 5'4" and 120 lbs, just how is she going to fight him to his death? How about when the rapist tells the victim he will kill them if they fight?



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Response to mercuryblues (Reply #59)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 10:57 PM

85. Just saying, there is such a thing, not quite like a gun in a vagina, but close enough.

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Response to Neoma (Reply #85)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 11:11 PM

86. +1

I can see it now. Instead of Planned Parenthood handing out regular condoms, hand out these on college campuses across the country. Watch the rapes go down in the time it takes for word to get out. Men won't know who is wearing one and who isn't. What a great way to unblur the line of consent that some men won't understand. If a woman is agreeing to sex, she will remove the condom. A passed out/drugged woman, well she can't. Proof no consent was given.

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Response to mercuryblues (Reply #86)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 11:16 PM

87. It probably would work only to a point.

I can imagine men figuring out how to remove this anti-rape condom.

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Response to Mister Ed (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 11:15 AM

60. thank you n/t

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Response to Mister Ed (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 11:26 AM

61. Thank you.

Thank you for the thoughtful post.

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Response to Mister Ed (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 11:39 AM

62. you teared me up mr. ed. you

are a gem. i am sure you will say, nah.... not perfect. not about perfect. it is all about opening up. thank you. very well said.

you do pretty well with the subject of knowing nothing about something. i really did not want to go into another rape thread. i am glad i did.

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Response to Mister Ed (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 12:36 PM

64. Beautiful post.

 

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Response to Mister Ed (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 12:38 PM

66. Do you limit all topics to those with personal experience?

Studies are done all the time on things. People work with the victims, etc. People read about it. Everyone will have an opinion no matter what. From what you are saying, do you realize, rapists themselves have a better right to talk than anyone with no experience of it?

This just isn't true and it's wrong. Men for example can have opinions on abortion. There is an abstract quality to every issue, too. Without that, society could not deal with it. And the victims themselves will still have different views.

Statistics and study of any subject are always possible and likely to be very helpful.

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Response to Mister Ed (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 01:16 PM

67. wow

all I can do is never do it.

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Response to Mister Ed (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 01:18 PM

68. Thank you n/t

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Response to Mister Ed (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 02:50 PM

70. Tone of humility in a DU post.

A rare find.

Here's to learning a little bit at a time.

Recommended.

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Response to Mister Ed (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 04:30 PM

72. Yet the republicans continue their dastardly efforts to legitimatize aka legalize rape

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Response to Mister Ed (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 05:53 PM

74. Thank you so much

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Response to Mister Ed (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 07:18 PM

76. Hear, hear! Thank You. k&r

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Response to Mister Ed (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 07:22 PM

77. Your post made me cry.

I am not sure if I am crying because it is so true, or because it is so much better than what I see from too many men here, or because I have been date raped more than once (and I would bet a lot of women have been and don't want to admit that they put themselves into that situation).

Just know that I really appreciate your post. I wish I knew more men like you.

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Response to Mister Ed (Original post)


Response to Soundman (Reply #80)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 08:54 PM

83. There appears to be a lot you do not know

Lots of young people do not know what rape is. The prevelance of rape varies greatly from culture to culture disproving your assertion that "nothing can be done".

Finally, you claim women and men will never understand each other but rally against any sort of education that might help. You're offended by feminists and are pretty much saying no man could be trusted not to rape you- a much harsher assessment of manhood than I've ever heard from a feminist.

Your post is so sad, but it's also a total mess of jumbled thoughts that don't fit together. I'm afraid that's the product of too little understanding or education on these matters and some harsh experiences that lead you to these bleak hopeless views.

Why in the world would this poster piss you off so much- because she's trying to help people? WTF would that ever inspire anger?
It would be valid if you felt she was a fool, but anger- really? You need to chill out and dial down the venom.

Hopelessness may guide you, but you've no valid reason to be angered by those who are trying to improve people's lives. None.

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Response to Mister Ed (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 08:42 PM

82. Thank you, Mr. Ed. And for all the rest of you guys...

now just how hard was that, really?

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