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Sun Dec 2, 2012, 07:06 PM

In many of the rape threads I an noticing a definite empathy deficit...

...by the posters who get angry thinking that they are being told that "all men are rapists".

As someone who is on the Autism spectrum it is a problem I have deal with every day. I am always having remind myself that just because I know I am not X does not mean OTHER people know that.

It is the same thing with women's reactions towards men in public. Men get offended and accuse women of "assuming they are rapists" when they are not, well those women the men are so offended by don't know that!

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Reply In many of the rape threads I an noticing a definite empathy deficit... (Original post)
Odin2005 Dec 2012 OP
Odin2005 Dec 2012 #1
Little Star Dec 2012 #2
Odin2005 Dec 2012 #3
bettyellen Dec 2012 #4
cliffordu Dec 2012 #5
MineralMan Dec 2012 #6
cliffordu Dec 2012 #13
MineralMan Dec 2012 #26
cliffordu Dec 2012 #43
Tsiyu Dec 2012 #46
cliffordu Dec 2012 #53
Tsiyu Dec 2012 #55
cliffordu Dec 2012 #58
Dark n Stormy Knight Dec 2012 #70
thucythucy Dec 2012 #76
The Doctor. Dec 2012 #95
Odin2005 Dec 2012 #7
sufrommich Dec 2012 #15
salin Dec 2012 #25
coalition_unwilling Dec 2012 #68
Tsiyu Dec 2012 #35
Deep13 Dec 2012 #49
yardwork Dec 2012 #60
cliffordu Dec 2012 #64
yardwork Dec 2012 #74
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #82
Heidi Dec 2012 #73
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #80
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #81
redqueen Dec 2012 #8
Odin2005 Dec 2012 #10
unreadierLizard Dec 2012 #12
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #17
unreadierLizard Dec 2012 #19
Posteritatis Dec 2012 #36
Voice for Peace Dec 2012 #47
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #83
seabeyond Dec 2012 #92
TM99 Dec 2012 #65
seabeyond Dec 2012 #93
Major Nikon Dec 2012 #96
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #102
Major Nikon Dec 2012 #104
MattBaggins Dec 2012 #28
DreamGypsy Dec 2012 #42
Major Nikon Dec 2012 #98
DreamGypsy Dec 2012 #100
Major Nikon Dec 2012 #101
Major Nikon Dec 2012 #97
redqueen Dec 2012 #14
unreadierLizard Dec 2012 #16
redqueen Dec 2012 #20
Major Nikon Dec 2012 #77
Major Nikon Dec 2012 #75
MadrasT Dec 2012 #9
unreadierLizard Dec 2012 #11
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #18
unreadierLizard Dec 2012 #21
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #22
unreadierLizard Dec 2012 #24
nomorenomore08 Dec 2012 #27
Posteritatis Dec 2012 #31
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #84
gollygee Dec 2012 #88
Odin2005 Dec 2012 #32
Squinch Dec 2012 #51
JoeyT Dec 2012 #52
renate Dec 2012 #59
Dark n Stormy Knight Dec 2012 #69
thucythucy Dec 2012 #78
redqueen Dec 2012 #79
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #86
Whisp Dec 2012 #89
FightForMichigan Dec 2012 #90
yardwork Dec 2012 #94
raccoon Dec 2012 #99
Odin2005 Dec 2012 #106
BlueJazz Dec 2012 #23
RKP5637 Dec 2012 #29
BlueJazz Dec 2012 #34
RKP5637 Dec 2012 #38
OneGrassRoot Dec 2012 #66
nomorenomore08 Dec 2012 #30
Tsiyu Dec 2012 #40
smirkymonkey Dec 2012 #33
Bonobo Dec 2012 #37
salin Dec 2012 #39
Blue_In_AK Dec 2012 #41
Odin2005 Dec 2012 #44
FarCenter Dec 2012 #45
GeorgeGist Dec 2012 #48
nomorenomore08 Dec 2012 #57
On the Road Dec 2012 #50
JoeyT Dec 2012 #54
Odin2005 Dec 2012 #56
yardwork Dec 2012 #62
pecwae Dec 2012 #71
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #87
luv_mykatz Dec 2012 #61
Odin2005 Dec 2012 #72
Beacool Dec 2012 #63
Warpy Dec 2012 #67
FightForMichigan Dec 2012 #91
Warpy Dec 2012 #103
Tumbulu Dec 2012 #107
Major Nikon Dec 2012 #105
thucythucy Dec 2012 #85

Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 07:18 PM

1. ***KICK***

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 07:18 PM

2. Thanks Odin. Good comparison. k&r

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Response to Little Star (Reply #2)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 07:19 PM

3. You are welcome!

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 07:27 PM

4. I only get offended when they misquote everyone here is a misguided bid for sympathy.

There's some incredibly dishonest and manipulative crap going on, and it;s coming from people who think their hurt feelings should be everyone's focus to the exclusion of the subject at hand. They don't care about the 29.3% of kids under 11 getting raped. They'd like no one to actually say that there's a problem here. It's bullshit.

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 07:27 PM

5. Well, Just how much empathy should we have?

I mean for being told that expressions of attraction is tantamount to rape?

THAT'S what disturbs most of the people that I've seen upset about this umbrella of sexual attraction being lumped in with the urge to rape..

I worked with homeless kids for years and almost to a person they had been beaten and emotionally tortured in every manner of horror while being raped.



Hitting on someone in a bar on Friday night doesn't mean a man is a rapist. The stuff I just listed, IMNSHO does.

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Response to cliffordu (Reply #5)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 07:33 PM

6. Who has said that?

I've not seen any such statements. Link?

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #6)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 07:48 PM

13. Seek and ye shall find.

There are plenty of examples out there.

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Response to cliffordu (Reply #13)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 08:09 PM

26. Link & I'll look.

Don't and it didn't happen.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #26)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 09:27 PM

43. I have long admired you and your stances, MM, and I consider you a friend

as far as internet friends can be just that,

But I won't revisit the screeds I've seen here lately.

Maybe someone else can help you out.

Until then,



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Response to cliffordu (Reply #43)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 09:54 PM

46. Which means you got nothing



but please do define "expressions of attraction" and "hitting on."

I am curious as to your personal definitions

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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #46)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 10:27 PM

53. You are most certainly not. The way your phrases are constructed

out your intent and conclusion.

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Response to cliffordu (Reply #53)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 10:44 PM

55. You would be wrong

but there have been more than a few guys assuming things about me here, so why am I not surprised?

I think these discussions are important. I trust you feel the same way.

It's time to begin some real conversations about expectations, language and the way we all perceive our human sexuality and the expression of same,

I have nothing against you, really don't know you one way or the other, I was just curious as to what you meant by your phrases. I can understand that these are touchy subjects, and that no one really wants to open up any more worm-filled cans here, but I promise I was not going to attack you in any way.

I was hoping for conversation. For some back and forth. At the worst, I might have wanted to point out where a come on line might seem benign to a male, but could be perceived as a threat from a female individual's point of view. That's it. Nothing scary. Nothing emasculating. No secret agenda. Just a desire to continue the conversation.

Please do not assume things about someone you don't know, and I won't assume anything about you. And I really don;t deserve your hostility, but I sure have gotten used to it lately from a few others, so I will just take that as part of your particular "culture."

Cheers.

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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #55)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 12:25 AM

58. Could be the most passive aggressive reply

I've ever seen here. Really. Have someone read the entire screed aloud to you and see where the passive meets the aggressive.

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Response to cliffordu (Reply #58)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 04:58 AM

70. I don't think that phrase means what you think it means.

And we're still waiting for those links.

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Response to cliffordu (Reply #58)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 09:29 AM

76. For me the most telling thing about your post

is that you're asked to provide a link, and you refuse to do so.

Which, as has been pointed out, means you've got nothing.

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Response to thucythucy (Reply #76)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 12:24 PM

95. I'm glad that is so telling...

 

because I consistently ask for links to prove many of the following accusations:

"DUers 'shit on' the efforts of liberals in The South."

I asked for links, everyone told me: 'Just look and you'll see!'. But no one brought any examples.

"DU has a 'rape culture!"

Yep, asked for something to back that up too.... nothing.

I can't even begin to detail all of the crazy accusations people just toss around with nothing to back them up. Glad you can see that the accusations are meaningless.

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Response to cliffordu (Reply #5)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 07:34 PM

7. Yesterday I remember seeing am post by a female DUer...

That she often crosses to the other side of the road to avoid certain men. Those men are probably harmless, but SHE can't know that. And what you consider "expression of sexual attraction", the woman can take as "creepy guy trying to hit on me".

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Response to cliffordu (Reply #5)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 07:50 PM

15. I have read the rape threads,no one has

said anything close to what you're acusing them of.

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Response to sufrommich (Reply #15)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 08:01 PM

25. I had the same thougt... where did that come from?

I didn't see that in any of the posts I read.

If a link to such a post appears, I will read it and respond - because that (hitting on someone in a bar) has nothing to do with these discussions.

Now if the end result of said activity is anything close to the Nashville duer's thread - well that is a different situation altogether. The two scenarios are completely disconnected.

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Response to sufrommich (Reply #15)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 03:15 AM

68. Thank you. Cliffordu creates a straw man of Brobdignagian proportions, the

 

easier to knock it over. Only problem is that no one I had read had ever said anything remotely like the sentiments he was ascribing to them. Hence his repeated refusal to provide any links.

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Response to cliffordu (Reply #5)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 08:36 PM

35. Please link to a post where a DUer has

told you or anyone that expressions of attraction are tantamount to rape.

And please define: "Expressions of attraction."

And, for the record, many women have been gang raped in bars, so please define "hitting on."


Thanks

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Response to cliffordu (Reply #5)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 10:09 PM

49. You seem a bit defensive.

I don't think you mean to do so.

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Response to cliffordu (Reply #5)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 12:36 AM

60. That's quite an accusation. Please link to an example.

Otherwise, it sounds like you are dismissing the experience of many people here who have been raped. Sounds almost like you're saying that they weren't "legitimately raped."

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Response to yardwork (Reply #60)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 12:46 AM

64. Hyperbole much???

There is nothing in what I stated that would cause any reasonable person make the leap from what I actually said to dismissing the experience of people who have been raped.

Yours is a smear, plain and simple.

Nice try, but fail.

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Response to cliffordu (Reply #64)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 09:21 AM

74. You seem to be falling off the rails.

You're all over this thread attacking people and basically having a meltdown, but you haven't linked to a single post that supports your contention. Maybe you should go inside, spend some time enjoying the weather?

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Response to cliffordu (Reply #64)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 09:44 AM

82. Not a smear, Yardwork is right -- provide a link

You refuse to, even after many people have asked you to, over two days.

You owe Yardwork an apology. Which you won't give.

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Response to cliffordu (Reply #5)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 09:06 AM

73. Here's a good starting point:

You should extend to every rape victim and potential rape victim the amount of empathy you would expect for yourself. You've probably got more empathy in you than that, but I'm just offering you a starting point.

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Response to cliffordu (Reply #5)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 09:41 AM

80. No one has said that

Link.

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Response to cliffordu (Reply #5)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 09:42 AM

81. So, someone being a creeper and hitting on someone in a bar is okay

And, isn't being creepy and unwanted?

Because it is.

However, no one has stated about men what you claim. NO ONE.

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 07:36 PM

8. Thanks Odin.

It's quite telling that they put their fragile, bruised egos ahead of people who are being brutalized.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #8)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 07:41 PM

10. This is exactly why I think we guys need to take a course on this stuff.

I remember reading about the experiences of a woman-to-man transsexual when he started taking testosterone, he said he felt more "blinkered", narrow-minded, and less empathetic. I think we guys need some proper educating on empathizing with others and we are not getting it, and it shows!

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #10)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 07:46 PM

12. What the fuck is this shit?

"blinkered" "narrow minded" "less empathetic"

I've never once felt any of these things and the fact that you imply that we males are genetically less empathetic and selfish is insulting. "we guys need some proper educating" - in what? Maybe, by your logic, we should go back to "unga unga me man!" cavemen style, then?

Shit like this is offensive, Odin. Call me all the names you want for feeling that way, but I won't be tarred and feathered because I produce testosterone instead of estrogen.


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Response to unreadierLizard (Reply #12)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 07:53 PM

17. Chazz Bono has stated something very similar

As have others. And Jennifer Boylan's book states the opposite: when she transitioned MTF, she became less confrontational (ie traffic, in work discussions, etc.), had more empathy, etc.

Humans are comprised of a lot of potent things, including hormones. We are a big chemical stew.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #17)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 07:54 PM

19. Oh, I'm so sorry, then.

Come on guys!

Let's all get de-testosteroned and full up on estrogen!

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Response to unreadierLizard (Reply #19)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 08:38 PM

36. Unlimited facepalms. (nt)

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Response to unreadierLizard (Reply #19)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 10:06 PM

47. yes!! excellent idea.

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Response to unreadierLizard (Reply #19)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 09:45 AM

83. Yes, that is axactly what I said

It's called HUMAN ANATOMY.

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Response to unreadierLizard (Reply #19)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 10:27 AM

92. i am going with you on this one. do they say it cause it is expected from conditioning, and they

want ti to be so....

personally i have a couple sons that are damn good at empathy.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #17)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 12:50 AM

65. True, but...

While it is true we are a 'big chemical stew' as you put it, human behavior and expression can not be reduced to one hormone alone.

While those anecdotes may be accurate, the science has shown time and time again that men with low testosterone actually experience far more irritability and anger issues (as well as depression, low energy, low sex drive, etc.) than those with higher levels.

I can attest to this as I have a damaged pit gland due to chemo treatments from a tumor that developed there. I have to use testosterone injections (as well as other hormone replacements) bi-weekly for the rest of my life to keep all my hormone levels up and stable.

When I first was diagnosed at extremely low levels my degree of anger and irritability were at expression levels I had never personally experienced. As my levels steadily rose in to normal ranges for my age, those and other symptoms abated. Then my endo suggested that she wanted to get my levels up to those of a twenty year old. As they have risen to that level, my mood has become incredibly stable again.

We know that this younger generation has been exposed to much higher levels of estrogen byproducts in foods than any other. We have seen statistics here in these threads on rape that purport to show that a great many younger men today accept extreme rage and rape as being somehow acceptable.

Correlation is not causality so let's do more research as opposed to making blanket statements that just because men have more testosterone then they are somehow more prone to violence solely because of that one hormone.

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Response to TM99 (Reply #65)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 10:29 AM

93. exactly. there are studies that refute this conditioned perception. it is getting society to

actually pay attention to fact instead of what has long been assumed and said because of conditioned behaviors.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #17)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 02:50 PM

96. I don't care if Mr. Rogers said it

While it may be true that hormones affect us in all sorts of ways and account for many differences between genders, when you go down the road of claiming those hormones pathologize one gender or another, the end of that is not a happy place.

Just sayin'

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #96)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 05:23 PM

102. Except I never said that

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #102)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 05:34 PM

104. No, but you did appear to defend it

Complete with an example of how the idea is not all that crazy, even though it is.

Just sayin'

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Response to unreadierLizard (Reply #12)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 08:16 PM

28. You produce testosterone AND estrogen

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Response to MattBaggins (Reply #28)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 09:26 PM

42. In fact, an estrogen causes the sexual dimorphism of the brain...

In developing male fetuses, the immature testes produce testosterone, which is converted by the brain into estradiol; the presence of estradiol in the brain results in a 'male' brain pattern. In developing female fetuses, the absence of significant levels of testosterone/estradiol causes the brain to develop as a 'female' brain. The brain becomes sexually dimorphic during a critical period, or window of time, which in humans occurs during fetal development. From that point, the brain sex is determined for life; thus at puberty, circulating testosterone and estrogen act on a brain that is already sexually dimorphic.

From Wikipedia: Estradiol:

Estradiol (E2 or 17β-estradiol, also oestradiol) is a sex hormone. Estradiol is abbreviated E2 as it has two hydroxyl groups in its molecular structure. Estrone has one (E1) and estriol has three (E3). Estradiol is about 10 times as potent as estrone and about 80 times as potent as estriol in its estrogenic effect. Except during the early follicular phase of the menstrual cycle, its serum levels are somewhat higher than that of estrone during the reproductive years of the human female. Thus it is the predominant estrogen during reproductive years both in terms of absolute serum levels as well as in terms of estrogenic activity. During menopause, estrone is the predominant circulating estrogen and during pregnancy estriol is the predominant circulating estrogen in terms of serum levels. Estradiol is also present in males, being produced as an active metabolic product of testosterone. The serum levels of estradiol in males (14 - 55 pg/mL) are roughly comparable to those of postmenopausal women (< 35 pg/mL). Estradiol in vivo is interconvertible with estrone; estradiol to estrone conversion being favored. Estradiol has not only a critical impact on reproductive and sexual functioning, but also affects other organs, including the bones.


Whoda thunk it???

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Response to DreamGypsy (Reply #42)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 03:41 PM

98. I just think it's cool we get to stand up to pee

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #98)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 04:22 PM

100. Urinating while standing is not limited to human males...

I have a number of long distance trail running friends who are female. The often wear a skort because it's comfortable and also allows private, standing urination. Not all the ladies I run with take advantage of the feature... I recall one conversation about the topic where a friend revealed: "No, I still drop my drawers, otherwise I end up peeing on my shoes."

For some reason, conversation about farts and peeing often occur after a couple hours of running.

The web is wonderful...you can discover a lot of stuff you really didn't want to know by searching on urinating while standing.

Here are some examples:

Swedish Left Party Chapter Wants To Make Urinating While Standing Illegal For Men
Women can pee standing up with Go Girl
How to Urinate Standing up As a Female

and there are those males who advocate urinating while sitting:



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Response to DreamGypsy (Reply #100)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 05:01 PM

101. Competitive cyclists quite commonly pee while riding

Seems a bit easier for a man to pull that one off.

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Response to MattBaggins (Reply #28)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 03:01 PM

97. True

I would add that what is considered normal levels for both sexes varies quite widely.

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #10)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 07:48 PM

14. I know many, many empathetic men.

I think this stuff is cultural, and that with enough awareness it can be ended. Just like that. We still have yet to reach that critical mass, though, even on this side of the aisle.

I think that sad fact is dismaying to many progressive-minded women.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #14)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 07:52 PM

16. +1

Lack of empathy doesn't come from gender at all.

The environment and how you grow up are major factors, just like everything else.

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Response to unreadierLizard (Reply #16)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 07:54 PM

20. We may have behavioral tendencies, based on our genetic predispositions...

but we choose how to act on them, based on our environment & how we are raised.

Complete agreement with you on this.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #14)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 09:33 AM

77. Thank you for saying this red

I found the previous statement to be incredibly sexist. It would be like saying women need education on controlling hysteria. It's the worst sort of sexism. This is a cultural thing and I will freely admit that men are lacking in this regard. That's why diversity is so important. I wish congress were at least half female. I think America would be a better place for it.

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #10)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 09:24 AM

75. Sexism

Just sayin'

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 07:41 PM

9. Thank you Odin2005.

(I am an Aspie and I have to deal with this type of problem every day too. Everything seems literal to me and I have to parse it out and figure out when it isn't meant to be literal.)

"Empathy deficit" is a good descriptor.

Thank you again.

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 07:44 PM

11. Wow.

So now I'm a sadist or a psychopath on top of a sudden "MRA", even though I despise those people with a passion?

I guess I don't like the idea of being painted with the same brush as the likes of rapist scum.

Excuse me.

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Response to unreadierLizard (Reply #11)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 07:54 PM

18. Yes, that is exactly what Odin said

You just proved his thesis.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #18)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 07:56 PM

21. Excuse me for feeling -personally- insulted by his generalizations

especially when I've struggled for years, putting others over self almost every time, even to the detriment of my own health.

I've cried over my friend's pain, been angry at their anger and am always there to listen to them. But, I guess I need to take classes on empathy.

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Response to unreadierLizard (Reply #21)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 07:57 PM

22. You just proved his point again

I honestly do not understand why you aren't getting this.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #22)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 07:59 PM

24. Am I supposed to just bend over and accept this

smearing of gender based on...chemicals produced?

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Response to unreadierLizard (Reply #24)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 08:12 PM

27. Look, I'm a guy, and I think you're overreacting to the point of looking ridiculous.

I personally feel no shame whatsoever for being male, or "producing testosterone," or any of these other strawmen. Nor do I see anyone in particular, recommending "shame" as a course of action. So please calm down!

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Response to unreadierLizard (Reply #24)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 08:24 PM

31. Annnnd there's the hat trick! (nt)

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Response to unreadierLizard (Reply #24)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 09:47 AM

84. Point proven -- again!

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Response to unreadierLizard (Reply #24)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 09:55 AM

88. It's interesting you use a rape metaphor here

Not sure what to make of that.

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Response to unreadierLizard (Reply #11)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 08:30 PM

32. Thanks for proving my point.

I never said any of that. And the world does not revolve around you are your own feelings.

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #32)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 10:20 PM

51. +1

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Response to unreadierLizard (Reply #11)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 10:22 PM

52. I'm going to try this again,

because I genuinely don't think you're an MRA, and I seriously doubt you're a sadist or a psychopath.

Women aren't saying we're potential rapists. They're saying that they can't tell us from a potential rapist when they don't know us.

There's no defining characteristic of rapists other than rape. They're not a certain height, build, or possessing a specific physical feature. They don't wear a "Hello! I am a rapist!" t-shirt. They don't announce to the people around them that they're a rapist. There isn't a flashing neon sign over their head that reads "Warning: Rapist!". They're literally indistinguishable from you and me, right up until they rape someone.

Given that, it's often in a woman's best interest to assume strangers approaching them *might* be a rapist, especially since there's a not inconsequential segment of society that will blame them if they engage a man in conversation or whatever and he turns out to be a rapist. Also known as the "What was she wearing?" crowd.

It's the same reason you've got a username here instead of your real name, and the reason that though I use my real name, my last name isn't spelled out. The vast majority of us aren't crazy people that might hurt someone from the internet, but someone might be. Since we can't tell who might be a psychopath, we hide our identity from people we don't know.

It's the same reason that if I asked you what your Social Security number is you'd ask me if I'd lost my fucking mind. I'd never steal someone's identity, but you have absolutely no way of knowing that. To hand that over requires trust, which I, as a completely anonymous person in the crowd, don't have. It doesn't mean you think I'm an identity thief or even a potential identity thief. It just means you have no way of knowing, and without any way of knowing, it's better to be safe than sorry.

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Response to JoeyT (Reply #52)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 12:30 AM

59. very well explained, and nicely too!

Thank you!

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Response to JoeyT (Reply #52)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 04:51 AM

69. + infinity! This needs to be an OP.

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Response to JoeyT (Reply #52)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 09:35 AM

78. Wow! Wonderful explanation.

Thank you for stating it so clearly.

What you posted here could be the start of some very good discussions. Think about posting it as an OP.

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Response to JoeyT (Reply #52)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 09:37 AM

79. Seriously, you are awesome.

Just had to say that again.

I like words, and you most definitely have quite a way with them.


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Response to JoeyT (Reply #52)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 09:48 AM

86. That's it exactly -- this would make a good OP

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Response to JoeyT (Reply #52)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 10:09 AM

89. wow. That was excellent. wow. and wow.

 

Thanks for posting that. May I keep a copy to use in the future, with credit to you? - because it is so well done it should be used in other discussions.

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Response to JoeyT (Reply #52)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 10:11 AM

90. This is a perfect example

that men can be every bit as empathetic as women. You get it.

Look, empathy is a skill. Like many other skills, some people are born with a talent for it, and others not so much, but through practice, everyone can improve it. I teach empathy skills where I volunteer, and over the space of just 65 hours, you can really see the lightbulbs come on for some people who struggled with empathy before.

Whether it's a male or female thing, something to do with brain development or gender roles in society, all that I have no way of knowing. But what I do know is that nearly anyone who truly wants to improve their empathy skills can. I've seen it happen.

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Response to JoeyT (Reply #52)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 11:21 AM

94. Beautifully said. Thank you.

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Response to JoeyT (Reply #52)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 03:45 PM

99. Great post! nt

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Response to JoeyT (Reply #52)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 09:12 PM

106. BINGO!

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 07:57 PM

23. I understand in the strangest way. Explanation>>

When I was on the road with a band, we were sometimes booked into dives...not often...but every once in a great while.
And by dives, I mean in some rough, mean, nasty threatening part of town where most of the patrons were
either from some shithole, mean life-style or on their way to prison. I was young with long hair and felt like
(at the time), I'd get my ass kicked and beaten at a moments notice.
Patron: Any of you boygirls play "My mule loves me" (or some other silly crap)
Me: Ah..no sir we don't.
Patron: You better learn it quick pussy-boy or your break will consist of a good ol' country ass-beating.

I was sitting outside once (actually hiding!) and I thought:
"Damn, this is the way a lot of Women feel all the time...threatened and helpless...This is fuckin' scary..shit"

Sooo...I don't TRULY understand but I've got a fairly damn good idea.

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Response to BlueJazz (Reply #23)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 08:21 PM

29. Growing up as a gay person you can also get similar treatment from these jerks, even from cops

threatening to rape you ... because you're young, good looking and gay. ... so some think they will just have their way with you, and society doesn't give a fuck anyway, because you're gay.

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Response to RKP5637 (Reply #29)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 08:35 PM

34. Oh..Yes...I was going to post pretty much the same thing but figured I'd stick to the..

...original post for the time being.
2 of my friends are Gay and some of their stories are just as scary...and/or more so...than mine.

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Response to BlueJazz (Reply #34)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 08:43 PM

38. Yeah, it can be pretty scary, especially if you don't look just like those jerks! They

single you out, you can feel their eyes on you.

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Response to BlueJazz (Reply #34)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 02:03 AM

66. I haven't read through all of these related threads...

but of the few I have read, I was wondering when this would be mentioned.

I'm a female but don't view rape from the prism of men raping women. Many men, hetero and gay, are raped by other men (and a small percentage of women, no doubt).



Thank you both for sharing.





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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 08:23 PM

30. I tangled with somebody who *truly couldn't seem to understand* that his long-winded, self-centered

posts were rather offensive in context. And he went as far as *stating* that he didn't give a shit. So finally I got pissed and gave up.

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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #30)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 09:04 PM

40. And many on this board thank you so much

for doing battle over this issue.

You won a lot of fans, believe that, even though I realize that was not your aim.

Thanks again. Some posters just don't have very good boundaries.


But they do haul a boatload of bitterness around....



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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 08:34 PM

33. Thank you Odin for your thoughtful post.

It's nice to see that there is a man who understands how terrified we are when we are alone in public. It can't be helped, it's simply instinct.

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 08:51 PM

39. I appreciate the sentiment, Odin2005

and think the broad audience is generally rather receptive. But there are a few, who can't see/react to other peoples' feelings when their own are hurt. Those folks keep the chasm large and... sadly... hostile.

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 09:19 PM

41. I'll repost a comment I made late last night on another thread.

I don't think anyone here is asking you to feel guilty for being a man.

All anyone is asking (I think) is that men try to understand why women are sensitive about this topic, why we may be leery of striking up conversations or making eye contact. Why we may generally be distrustful. I doubt there are many women here who haven't been creeped out at some point or another in their lives, to varying degrees, by a man -- whether a stranger, an acquaintance or family member or a spouse. I myself have been flashed on more than one occasion by strange men, I've had more than one close encounter with dangerous-feeling strangers. Only my sixth sense kept me from being victimized by a serial rapist stalking Northern California. I had so many dates with grabby-handed guys, I can't even count them. I had a 17-year marriage to a much-loved man who nevertheless abused me.

All that is behind me now and my life is at peace, but I still feel nervous going out alone at night, I tend to avert my eyes when I pass a strange man on the street or especially on a trail. It's just an instinct now.

So I think that all I and the other women here are asking from you is that you not belittle the issue. Stop it when you see it.

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Response to Blue_In_AK (Reply #41)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 09:31 PM

44. Thanks for your input!

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Response to Blue_In_AK (Reply #41)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 09:35 PM

45. I've noticed that young and good-looking women are much more approachable

now that I'm in the old and harmless category.

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 10:07 PM

48. I'm not a rapist ...

I'm not offended.

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Response to GeorgeGist (Reply #48)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 11:39 PM

57. Eloquently stated, in so few words!

I concur with that sentiment.

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 10:10 PM

50. Assuming That Someone is Gulity of a Vice

because it is a stereotypical vice of a group they belong to, at least until proven otherwise, is the definition of prejudice. It is not surprising that this is being objected to.

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Response to On the Road (Reply #50)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 10:38 PM

54. I agree.

You should give me your social security number.

Otherwise you're accusing me of being an identity thief, which I strongly object to.

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Response to On the Road (Reply #50)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 11:17 PM

56. Ah, another poster who missed to whole point of the OP.

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Response to On the Road (Reply #50)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 12:37 AM

62. A vice?

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Response to On the Road (Reply #50)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 07:25 AM

71. You're right of course,

but alluding to rape or rapists as a mere vice, rather like a stubborn cough, is exactly the problem. You've entirely diminished thousands of victims with just a few words, but it did sound intellectual. Good job.

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Response to On the Road (Reply #50)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 09:52 AM

87. A vice is gambling too much, not rape

WTF. So, rape is now a bad habit?

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 12:36 AM

61. It may help to realize...

that unwanted sexual attention can be threatening to anyone.

With that being said, most of us who are female are more vulnerable to being raped than are most males.

Thank you Odin for having the courage to make the post that you did.

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Response to luv_mykatz (Reply #61)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 08:35 AM

72. You're welcome!

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 12:42 AM

63. Thank you.

I think that men have no clue what women go through from a very young age.

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 03:10 AM

67. Thanks, Odin, men simply have no clue

how poisoned relations between the sexes are by that constant drumbeat of fear in the background that every woman hears but men are oblivious to.

Pushing the responsibility off on women by telling them to be paranoid, to dress conservatively, not to wear makeup, to go outside only with a companion, to bar their windows, to keep their doors locked, never go out in the evening, certainly never have a drink and the dismal list goes on and on, simply does not work, has not worked, will never work.

Men are going to have to start taking responsibility for their brothers if this is ever to change. Then again, it all seems to be working out just fine for them, so they aren't likely to bother.

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Response to Warpy (Reply #67)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 10:17 AM

91. I challenge you to open your mind a bit

It's not fair to say "men have no clue" when I know many who do. For instance, I volunteer for a sexual assault resource center that is run by a man. He has been dedicated to this cause for more than 20 years, has trained hundreds of people on how to advocate on behalf of people (women AND men) who have been raped, been on hundreds of hospital calls to be there for people who were recently sexually assaulted and who is part of our regions sexual assault response team, which is made up of police, prosecutors, medical professionals and advocates. It's not fair to lump him in with people who don't get it just because he has a Y chromosome.

A lot of men do get it. They get it because they know what rape has done to their mothers, sisters, wives and friends. Or they just get it because they simply know that no one deserves to be abused. Or they get it because they, themselves, have gone through it, too.

Please don't be so fast to cast away potential allies.

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Response to FightForMichigan (Reply #91)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 05:28 PM

103. They still don't get the fear. How could they?

It's constant, it never goes away, and they don't experience it.

While some men do understand the damage the actual act has done to individual women, they still don't understand how the constant threat combined with the way all responsibility for it is shoved onto victims and potential victims has poisoned everything.

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Response to Warpy (Reply #103)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 10:06 PM

107. So sadly true

as usual Warpy, you sure do a good job of expressing the truth clearly.

Thanks.

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Response to Warpy (Reply #67)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 08:41 PM

105. Sexism

Just sayin'

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Response to Odin2005 (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 09:48 AM

85. Thank you Odin. Great OP.

I wonder if one of the reasons some men get so offended and angry about discussions of rape is because rape itself is so horrible to think about. And as has been pointed out here and elsewhere, many men, perhaps even most, go through much of their lives not having to think about it, certainly not having to worry about it happening to themselves. I understand that men get raped as well, that the sexual abuse of boys is also a fact, but the cultural perception is that rape is a "woman's issue" and thus not something men need to trouble themselves about. As a result, men in general are much less engaged in discussions on how to prevent rape. I mean, look at any rape crisis center, and count how many men are volunteers, as opposed to women.

And so, when the topic is raised, I wonder if there isn't a defensive reaction that says, "That's not me--I don't want to think about this--and I'm angry at you for bringing it up." The idea that some men (on college campuses say) might be FORCED to think about, discuss this topic, makes them defensive, upset, angry. To be blunt: not having to think about rape is another form of male privilege. And nobody likes being asked to give up their privilege, hence all these hostile responses.

I would ask that those men sit back a moment and, as you say, try to generate some empathy for what women have to live with, every day of their lives. Maybe then they might be able to put their hurt feelings into some perspective.



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