HomeLatest ThreadsGreatest ThreadsForums & GroupsMy SubscriptionsMy Posts
DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Main » General Discussion (Forum) » When talking to members o...
Introducing Discussionist: A new forum by the creators of DU

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 09:19 AM

When talking to members of the military and retired veterans


I am talking about the right-wing ones which include family members.

Inevitably when the conversation comes to "Obamacare" or "free stuff and things" I call them out on the benefits they get which are 100% paid for by the US Government.
Where I get stumped is when they counter with the "I earned it because I was willing to lay my life on the line" speech.

I respect the fact that they were willing to do that but I cannot stand it when thy use it as cover while bashing the very "government" (as it applies to others) they rely so heavily on.

How do you handle this?
How would you reply?






31 replies, 2214 views

Reply to this thread

Back to top Alert abuse

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 31 replies Author Time Post
Reply When talking to members of the military and retired veterans (Original post)
SHRED Dec 2012 OP
hobbit709 Dec 2012 #1
Jackpine Radical Dec 2012 #2
Bigmack Dec 2012 #12
JoeyT Dec 2012 #18
Jackpine Radical Dec 2012 #19
JoeyT Dec 2012 #20
Posteritatis Dec 2012 #21
rppper Dec 2012 #22
Bigmack Dec 2012 #24
rppper Dec 2012 #29
actslikeacarrot Dec 2012 #28
southernyankeebelle Dec 2012 #26
99Forever Dec 2012 #3
Cirque du So-What Dec 2012 #4
Lightbulb_on Dec 2012 #5
SHRED Dec 2012 #8
Lightbulb_on Dec 2012 #13
southernyankeebelle Dec 2012 #27
SHRED Dec 2012 #6
Agony Dec 2012 #7
SHRED Dec 2012 #9
OldDem2012 Dec 2012 #10
obxhead Dec 2012 #11
nadinbrzezinski Dec 2012 #14
GeorgeGist Dec 2012 #15
DirkGently Dec 2012 #16
OneGrassRoot Dec 2012 #31
AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #17
Separation Dec 2012 #23
DaniDubois Dec 2012 #25
JoePhilly Dec 2012 #30

Response to SHRED (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 09:31 AM

1. "And I earned my SS by working all my life for it"

The problem with the RWers is that their attitude is "I got mine Jack, screw you"

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to SHRED (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 09:34 AM

2. I dunno, but I have a RW cousin who was career Air Force

with VA health insurance & a pension and comes out with that crap all the time. Kinda pisses me off because he was never in combat or even close to it.

The contrast between us is interesting in that I'm a Vietnam combat vet with 3 bullet holes who came back radicalized, joined the antiwar movement, campaigned hard for McGovern & have been moving progressively leftward ever since.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Jackpine Radical (Reply #2)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 10:18 AM

12. Why is it that the office pogues and supply weinies...

.. always pull that "life on the line" bullshit?

The guys on the barstools at the VFW and such will be glad to tell you about their hardships, like the time they got that nasty paper cut, and the time the freezer broke and they lost all the ice cream.

I just tell people who pull that shit that I got enough time in the shit that I can tell them they're suckers for not seeing they were used by the people they are defending.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Bigmack (Reply #12)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 12:10 PM

18. This. So much win.

My dad will occasionally trot out his heroism for serving in an argument with me to explain why he deserves the benefits he gets while others don't and get super pissed off when I point out the only country he's ever been to was Australia. Wrecking your car on a kangaroo doesn't make you a war hero.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JoeyT (Reply #18)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 06:16 PM

19. Did he name you Joey

in memory of the kangaroo?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Jackpine Radical (Reply #19)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 07:07 PM

20. Nah, I was already born.

That would've been awesome, though.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Bigmack (Reply #12)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 07:15 PM

21. Yeah, I've noticed that too

It's definitely not just an American thing; the younger soldiers and ex-soldiers in my neck of the woods I've noticed who throw cliches like that around tend to have had sedate careers in the military to say the least, and the older ones have a tendency to have been off in the rear themselves (at least, the ones old enough to have served in wars that had "the rear").

The ones who actually had to do things that resulted in loud noises and property damage usually seem to be just a bit more humble and less hyperbolic about the whole thing, and seem to be way less likely to cast every deployment as a Holy Crusade For Canadian Civil Rights Except The Ones I Don't Want People To Have.

(Then there's people who are just pretending to have served, of course, who tend to be even viler than the puffed-up actual vets, but that's a whole different rant.)

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Bigmack (Reply #12)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 08:23 PM

22. Not all supply weenies....

....served in the rear.....I don't consider driving 4 submarines, including one with 16 ballistic missiles, a rear echelon job....and just for clarification, even marine band members have to be rifle qualified....the cooks on Guadalcanal had to fight alongside the infantry too....the last person I had to explain this too was out local RW radio host, who argued supply, personnel men, band members and cooks didn't deserve pensions....

I'm not trying to argue a point here, I just don't appreciate the broad brushing...supply personnel play key roles...they keep the troops fed, armed, fueled and keep morale as high as possible...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rppper (Reply #22)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 04:55 PM

24. "Supply weenies and office pogues"....

.. are nicknames for anybody who had it easier - or perceived as easier - than whoever is speaking.

Line grunts are "pogues" to Recon Marines or Special Forces.

And those guys are "pogues" to Scout Snipers.

They're all - more or less - terms of endearment.... sort of. And perhaps a little envy.

Same as "squids, rust pickers, junior birdmen, dogfaces, puddle pirates (Coast Guard), bullet sponge(infantry), meat bomb (paratroopers), bubbleheads (submariners), REMFs, RAMFs... and now Fobbits...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Bigmack (Reply #24)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 09:36 AM

29. I understand where you're coming from....

....and I'm just sharing an experience...

Lol...honestly if you have a non technical or non nuclear job....aka supply, cooks, personnel staff....on a sub you are the guy they train to go into a flooded or burning compartment and save the nuke guys...a chief corpsman onboard my 3rd boat explained they do this because "they spend millions training the nukes, tens of thousands to train me, and about a $1.57 training you....."

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Bigmack (Reply #12)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 06:03 PM

28. I'm 30 years old....

...and a freshman in college. Nobody knows i'm a veteran because I dont have anything on my car or body that is from the military. I have noticed that some fellow vets like to try to shut down argument by saying the whole I served yadda yadda fought for freedom life in danger stuff and they try it on me and shut up really quick when I tell them I am also a vet, and did not have an office job. I dont like doing that but I am dissapointed by some of my fellow vets and their actions.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Jackpine Radical (Reply #2)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 05:43 PM

26. Wait a minute. My husband never went to a combat zone either. He spent 21 yrs in the

 

military and he wasn't a slacker either. If he requested on several ocassions to go to a TO&E unit but they never sent him. When the troops went to Dessert Storm the first time my husband wanted to go but they kept him back. While the guys were over there getting fat because there was a pretty short war. He was back as the senior NCO having to put up with their crying wives and problems that some of the troops didn't take care of with their children. He and many of the troops that stayed behind made sure that they got the supplies they needed and when they got back many came back fat because they had nothing to do. Some of them got awards while the people who were back here working hard to trying to make everyone happy got not even a thank you. My husband didn't ask any soldier to do something that he wouldn't do. He got both his Jump wings and AirAssault wings late in his career all because he wanted to prove to himself he could do it. My hubby isn't a heavy guy and he was a chaplain's assistant but he was a strong supporter of troops. It wasn't his fault he didn't get to go but he asked twice but the boss wouldn't let him go. Because of that he didn't get the next stripe so he decided to get out in 95. Please don't think because someone is in the back isn't doing anything to support the men and women in the front lines because that isn't true at all. By the way both father and father-in-law both served over 21 yrs a piece and I would never hear something like this about someone being assigned to what unit. You do your job and go where they tell you to go.

By the way when a lifer says something like that I give it right back and tell them yes you earned your pension and so do the people who work in jobs and retire and expect to get their retirement and benefits they paid into just like you and me. Face it buddy your a socialist wheter you like it or not.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to SHRED (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 09:35 AM

3. Add to that...

... and taxes I paid my entire life pay for Medicare AND the benefits you and all veterans receive.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to SHRED (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 09:39 AM

4. I've encountered the government-bashing attitude among some veterans

They justify it as 'defending the Constitution against enemies - foreign & domestic.' When I point out that they were obliged to obey the lawful orders of the CinC, they usually reply with something along the lines of 'well, he's not *my* CinC, because I'm not on active duty.' I have met with minimal success with veterans - even though I am one myself.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Cirque du So-What (Reply #4)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 09:44 AM

5. Better to accept the reality...

 

Getting the Obama hate out of the tactical levels of the military is a near impossible task.

At this point I just steer conversations away from the public eye and let them gripe internally.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Lightbulb_on (Reply #5)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 09:47 AM

8. Do they still only play FAUX...

...on the common area TV's in the military bases I wonder?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to SHRED (Reply #8)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 10:27 AM

13. Varies by post and area...

 

HLN in some, CNN in others and Fox in the rest...

Usually most places I see are ESPN...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Lightbulb_on (Reply #5)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 05:46 PM

27. I find that officers especially the ones who have gone to one of the academies are getting

 

that religion teaching and when they go into the regular service they bring that with them.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Cirque du So-What (Reply #4)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 09:46 AM

6. I just don't get it


I told my son-in-law (18 years Navy) that I do not begrudge his healthcare and that I only wish I had access to such coverage after a lifetime of working (before 65).

That stumped him a bit.

-

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to SHRED (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 09:47 AM

7. Perhaps..

If you believe that military service gives you exclusive access to the fruits of democracy then you don't really believe in what it is you thought you were fighting for. People serve their country in many different ways.

or more harshly... There is no honor in accepting what you deny others.

btw, I strongly support the expansion of veteran benefits across the board... even as I abhor militarism.

Cheers,
Agony

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Agony (Reply #7)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 09:48 AM

9. well put

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to SHRED (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 10:05 AM

10. Yes, they earned their Government benefits, but....

...it was their choice to join the military in the first place. Nobody forced them to join, and for those still in the military, nobody is forcing them to stay. The vast majority of folks who stay in the military until retirement do so because they know there is no equivalent job on the outside that will provide the level of benefits they receive in the military. Ask the folks still in the military why they haven't gotten out. Listen carefully to the answers they give you. Ask them who they believe pays for those benefits.

Ask the folks who retired from the military why they stayed in the military...wasn't it for the retirement pay and medical benefits they received when they got out, and still receive? What they get in retirement is no different philosophically than what civilians receive when they retire and start collecting Social Security and Medicare.

The tax dollars WE ALL PAY INTO THE SYSTEM pays for "Obamacare" and the other "free stuff" the US Government provides as benefits. Therefore, none of what the Government provides is free. We all pay some sort of price for the benefits we receive.

Lots of folks who currently receive one or more Government benefits like food stamps, unemployment, etc., are ALSO veterans who didn't stay in the military until retirement. In addition to paying for them with their tax dollars, don't those veterans also earn those benefits by virtue of having served their country at some point in their lives?

Unfortunately, logic fails when dealing with some people. Good luck.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to SHRED (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 10:07 AM

11. They served for our rights

not their rights.

I've paid taxes all my life for the benefits we all receive. We've ALL done something to earn our entitlements. That's why their called entitlements, we're entitled to them.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to SHRED (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 10:30 AM

14. First they did not earn them.

VA is a product of WWIi. Some facts usually piss them off.

And it was passed by democrats with clear opposition of the GOP. I add, they think people on government programrs are mooches, so they are.

Yup, they get pissed...but that is the reality.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to SHRED (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 10:58 AM

15. Why shouldn't the owners benefit?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to SHRED (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 11:28 AM

16. They deserve their benefits. So does a nurse or teacher.


Fighting is not the most important contribution anyone can make to their country.

That doesn't diminish how vital or difficult it can be, but we have to start speaking meaningfully about the many fights and sacrifices people make that don't involve warfare.

Chris Hayes tried to get at this on Veterans' Day, and was met with the usual hail of outrage whenever it's suggested we venerate war too much.

But we do. And we do it in a crass, meaningless way that doesn't necessarily honor any real value. Look at Republicans, constantly mouthing respect for the military with all the ritualistic words about heroes and sacrifice, while sending people to die in unheroic missions, to sacrifice everything for causes that are questionable at best, then chopping their benefits and handing out no-bid contracts so their cronies can get fat on the bloodletting.

It's not that our fighting people deserve any less honor or respect or commitment. It's that others deserve the same.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DirkGently (Reply #16)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 09:53 AM

31. Excellent. Thank you. :) n/t

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to SHRED (Original post)


Response to SHRED (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 10:47 PM

23. Don't let facts get in the way of your argument.

Tricare isn't free, an it's far from "great" healthcare. Don't even get me started on the dental.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to SHRED (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 05:14 PM

25. They laid their life on the line for corporate greed. Oil, poppy seed, and big defense contractors.

 

Not for my safety. Nothing about any of these wars have made America a safer place.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to SHRED (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 09:45 AM

30. THIS: Ask why they don't think that they'd get better care in the "free market".

That's the standard right wing claim.

Free Market Competition leads to better healthcare.

And so, by accepting government provided healthcare, they are either (a) accepting lower grade healthcare than they could get in the competitive free market, or (b) proving that government based care is in fact, better health care (which apparently, only they deserve).

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink

Reply to this thread