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Sun Dec 2, 2012, 05:58 AM

The rape threads point to a larger need...revolutionary change in what it is to be "a man".

We, as men, need to bring the old structure of "masculinity" down and build(to reclaim a phrase the Stalinists misused and unfairly discredited) a "new man" within its shell.

Rape is a product, more than anything else, I think, of the values that society prizes in men...the suppression of all emotions except anger, the fixation with "winning", the importance of asserting dominance at all cost, the refusal to accept "no" as an answer(because to do so would be taken as weakness)...and the way that those values cause corrode already damaged men and drive them to inflicting damage on others(including rape).

For rape, and for the other twisted results of the way manhood and masculinity has gone wrong to be stopped, the whole culture of masculinity has to be radically changed...and as many men as possible need to be part OF this change...both in our daily practice of life AND in the way in which we interact with other men.

There are other factors as well, and those who will post in this thread can add to the list and the causes.

I'm not sure when this work will be completed, but it has to start and it has to start now.

Until we can change the way we, as men, process emotions such as rage, frustration, fear and stress, create humane and respect-based power relations among ourselves, those who work for us/those we work for, those we live with/love/care about/spend time with, and those we are responsible for, there is little in life around us that can change...and massive change is needed in life it we're to survive and help others survive with us.

Don't know what all this will have to involve, but I'd like to start a long-time conversation in this thread and see what we can come up with-because we have to come up with something, and soon.

The way we live as men now causes far too many of us to harm others, whether through rape, violence, misuse of power, and inability to find ways to end powerlessness among ourselves and everyone we live with.

It's on us as men to make the changes within our gender.

Let's start now and see what we can do.

(on edit)

Have now cross-posted this to the Men's Group here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/11145606

147 replies, 8702 views

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Reply The rape threads point to a larger need...revolutionary change in what it is to be "a man". (Original post)
Ken Burch Dec 2012 OP
Bonobo Dec 2012 #1
Ken Burch Dec 2012 #2
roguevalley Dec 2012 #57
Victor_c3 Dec 2012 #3
Bonobo Dec 2012 #4
smirkymonkey Dec 2012 #7
TomClash Dec 2012 #11
Scuba Dec 2012 #20
seabeyond Dec 2012 #37
Turborama Dec 2012 #10
Bonobo Dec 2012 #12
Warren Stupidity Dec 2012 #29
Bonobo Dec 2012 #36
Warren Stupidity Dec 2012 #45
Bonobo Dec 2012 #59
sufrommich Dec 2012 #31
seabeyond Dec 2012 #38
EOTE Dec 2012 #116
smirkymonkey Dec 2012 #5
MadrasT Dec 2012 #6
WilliamPitt Dec 2012 #8
Android3.14 Dec 2012 #9
leftstreet Dec 2012 #13
coalition_unwilling Dec 2012 #16
Android3.14 Dec 2012 #18
redqueen Dec 2012 #26
leftstreet Dec 2012 #28
Android3.14 Dec 2012 #50
Eyes of the World Dec 2012 #14
coalition_unwilling Dec 2012 #19
redqueen Dec 2012 #27
TheBlackAdder Dec 2012 #43
Warren DeMontague Dec 2012 #85
redqueen Dec 2012 #89
Warren DeMontague Dec 2012 #109
Whisp Dec 2012 #131
Warren DeMontague Dec 2012 #142
Cerridwen Dec 2012 #133
Warren DeMontague Dec 2012 #140
Violet_Crumble Dec 2012 #147
CTyankee Dec 2012 #22
2theleft Dec 2012 #24
seabeyond Dec 2012 #40
bettyellen Dec 2012 #55
Warren DeMontague Dec 2012 #118
seabeyond Dec 2012 #123
Warren DeMontague Dec 2012 #124
bettyellen Dec 2012 #53
Ken Burch Dec 2012 #67
ismnotwasm Dec 2012 #119
Warren DeMontague Dec 2012 #126
FarCenter Dec 2012 #15
Renew Deal Dec 2012 #17
CTyankee Dec 2012 #25
Renew Deal Dec 2012 #64
Ken Burch Dec 2012 #68
bettyellen Dec 2012 #74
bettyellen Dec 2012 #56
Renew Deal Dec 2012 #63
bettyellen Dec 2012 #71
Chathamization Dec 2012 #86
bettyellen Dec 2012 #90
Chathamization Dec 2012 #91
bettyellen Dec 2012 #93
Chathamization Dec 2012 #105
bettyellen Dec 2012 #117
Chathamization Dec 2012 #122
bettyellen Dec 2012 #135
Chathamization Dec 2012 #136
Ken Burch Dec 2012 #72
randome Dec 2012 #21
Warren Stupidity Dec 2012 #30
FarCenter Dec 2012 #34
Warren Stupidity Dec 2012 #47
randome Dec 2012 #39
Warren Stupidity Dec 2012 #48
randome Dec 2012 #49
Ken Burch Dec 2012 #69
coalition_unwilling Dec 2012 #23
Ken Burch Dec 2012 #70
coalition_unwilling Dec 2012 #84
BlueToTheBone Dec 2012 #32
bemildred Dec 2012 #33
Odin2005 Dec 2012 #35
seabeyond Dec 2012 #41
raccoon Dec 2012 #42
bettyellen Dec 2012 #61
lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #44
bettyellen Dec 2012 #54
Ken Burch Dec 2012 #79
Zorra Dec 2012 #46
jimlup Dec 2012 #51
Ken Burch Dec 2012 #78
jimlup Dec 2012 #88
bettyellen Dec 2012 #94
sufrommich Dec 2012 #95
bettyellen Dec 2012 #96
ismnotwasm Dec 2012 #121
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #97
Marrah_G Dec 2012 #100
bettyellen Dec 2012 #101
sufrommich Dec 2012 #102
seabeyond Dec 2012 #103
sufrommich Dec 2012 #104
lunatica Dec 2012 #106
sufrommich Dec 2012 #108
geek tragedy Dec 2012 #111
Ms. Toad Dec 2012 #112
Democracyinkind Dec 2012 #114
quinnox Dec 2012 #115
Odin2005 Dec 2012 #127
noamnety Dec 2012 #128
CoffeeCat Dec 2012 #130
Heidi Dec 2012 #134
jimlup Dec 2012 #137
yardwork Dec 2012 #139
yardwork Dec 2012 #138
Ken Burch Dec 2012 #143
Tumbulu Dec 2012 #146
geek tragedy Dec 2012 #113
s-cubed Dec 2012 #52
bettyellen Dec 2012 #58
agent46 Dec 2012 #60
Tsiyu Dec 2012 #62
DirkGently Dec 2012 #65
Ken Burch Dec 2012 #66
bettyellen Dec 2012 #73
DirkGently Dec 2012 #75
bettyellen Dec 2012 #80
marions ghost Dec 2012 #87
flvegan Dec 2012 #76
Ken Burch Dec 2012 #77
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #98
Ken Burch Dec 2012 #144
The Traveler Dec 2012 #81
KitSileya Dec 2012 #83
raccoon Dec 2012 #132
tama Dec 2012 #82
cecilfirefox Dec 2012 #92
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #99
lunatica Dec 2012 #107
Shankapotomus Dec 2012 #110
LiberalLoner Dec 2012 #120
lbrtbell Dec 2012 #125
Blue_In_AK Dec 2012 #129
HiPointDem Dec 2012 #141
bettyellen Dec 2012 #145

Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 07:09 AM

1. I have a good place to start. A couple actually.

Throw out the idea, the expectation, the DEMAND that men must be the breadwinners and that their worth as a mate is based on the ability to be the provider.

You can also toss out the idea that it is their duty to protect you personally and as a member of the armed forces.

Men also like the idea, in some cases, of staying at home and raising the kids or cooking or whatever but they don't generally have the luxury to do so unless they are a bit lucky.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #1)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 07:45 AM

2. That's a good one...and it's within the power of men to do it.

Thanks for your post.

Let's keep this going.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #2)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 05:33 PM

57. Ken, you are my hero. I had GREAT and GOOD men in my family on all sides

My grandfather saved me from a child molester. I am not used to men that think of women as kleenex, inferior, submissive vessels of their will, etc. I thank you for a good post. I want all men to be as wonderful as so many I know are.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #1)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 08:22 AM

3. As a guy who has done a lot of things that many would call "manly" while in the military and stuff

I would call a "man" a person who will do anything that needs to get done while treating others with respect and dignity.

I like to think that I'm more "manly" than most out there because of my proven ability to stand up in any situation and take care of what needs to get done. My toddler is sick and throwing up in the night. What does a man like me do? Does a "real man" wake up his wife to get her to deal with it or does he get up, hold his daughter while she is crying and throwing up on his shoulder and chest, clean her up, and fall asleep with her in his arms?

A real "man" doesn't have to prove anything to anyone. Driving a big truck and wearing work boots might present a certain image of toughness, but real toughness and fortitude isn't displayed by looks. A real man doesn't have a frail ego that is damaged when he doesn't get his way.

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Response to Victor_c3 (Reply #3)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 08:30 AM

4. Personally....

I love that definition and your post.

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Response to Victor_c3 (Reply #3)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 08:51 AM

7. I love your definition.

That would be mine as well. I can see right through the macho stances when weakness of charachter is underneath. A strong man has strength of character and does not put his ego before doing the right thing.

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Response to Victor_c3 (Reply #3)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 09:19 AM

11. Great post

I would have written it if you hadn't beaten me to it. Good job.

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Response to Victor_c3 (Reply #3)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 10:16 AM

20. Great post, thanks.

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Response to Victor_c3 (Reply #3)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 11:40 AM

37. love your story. sounds like human to me.

my hubby was so there. always. such a blessing, he is.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #1)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 09:13 AM

10. *Holds hand up as being descibed in paragraphs 1&3*

My wife works full time and is very successful and happy in her profession, and I've been a "stay at home dad" (wish there was a better phrase) for the past 14 months - our delightful daughter is 15 months old but my wife only got 1 month's maternity leave.

I've given up my career to do this, but feel I'm doing the best job in the world.

One quibble, though. I feel blessed, not lucky.

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Response to Turborama (Reply #10)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 09:40 AM

12. I have worked at home for the last 18 years.

I bring in 90% of our family income while my wife teaches at home about 15 hours/week and earns food money for the family basically.

Since she teaches after school lets out, I make dinner 5 times a week, do the bulk of dishes and lots of other house stuff.

I think it is a nice situation and I have been able to be there for all my kids as they grow up. I too feel blessed, but luck has played a role in it as well.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #1)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 10:35 AM

29. Wait, you agree with the op?

Specifically, you agree with this paragraph?

Rape is a product, more than anything else, I think, of the values that society prizes in men...the suppression of all emotions except anger, the fixation with "winning", the importance of asserting dominance at all cost, the refusal to accept "no" as an answer(because to do so would be taken as weakness)...and the way that those values cause corrode already damaged men and drive them to inflicting damage on others(including rape).


Along with agreeing that "rape is a product...of the values that society prizes in men", do you also agree that violence (which rape is a subset of) is a product of the values that society prizes in men?

I'm curious, as you and others seem to reject this notion over in the men's group.

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Response to Warren Stupidity (Reply #29)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 11:27 AM

36. I agree that men need and deserve to not have the restrictions that bind them.

As for the paragraph you cite, it is really not terribly clear wrt the causes of rape and so I cannot unreservedly say that I am in complete agreement with it.

I am not sure what notions you "think" are being rejected in the Men's Group, but it might help if you pointed to specific comments and posters you disagree with for clarity. We are not all of like mind over there despite the fact that it may be easier for you to see the individuals there as a monolithic entity in order to fit your own preconceived notions of "us and them" which enable you to see yourself in the way you choose to.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #36)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 12:08 PM

45. I was quite explicit. The paragraph cited.

You are the one dancing around that paragraph.

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Response to Warren Stupidity (Reply #45)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 06:57 PM

59. If you understand it so well, restate it.

Because I think it is not clear to me what it means.

Ask the question in your own words again.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #1)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 10:48 AM

31. What decade are you living in?

Women comprised 47 percent of the total U.S. labor force.

Women are projected to account for 51 percent of the increase in total labor force growth between 2008 and 2018.

66 million women were employed in the U.S.--73 percent of employed women worked on full-time jobs, while 27 percent worked on a part-time basis.

http://www.dol.gov/wb/factsheets/Qf-laborforce-10.htm#.ULtzDNeumA4

Also, women are willing to serve in the military on the same level as men:http://news.discovery.com/human/women-military-front-120213.html

It's the Pentagon and politicians who are stopping them.

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Response to sufrommich (Reply #31)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 11:42 AM

38. japan.... nt

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #38)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 12:42 PM

116. Japan is a country. NT

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 08:49 AM

5. Thank you Ken for your thoughtful post.

I am interested to see how this thread progresses.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 08:50 AM

6. I love what you wrote.

Thank you.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 08:57 AM

8. Approve.

Well said.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 09:02 AM

9. Unconvinced for two reasons

First off, the broad depiction of an entire gender that you present is as misguided as any description of a group of humanity. Unlike, say, artificial organizations such as political parties, country clubs or unions, there is no "official" definition of what it means to be a man beyond the XY twist in the chromosome.
Second, if rape is a reflection of some general malfunction in the culture of masculinity, then there would be more consistency between countries with similar demographics. For example, Canada has a per-capita occurrence of rape at 1.7 per 1000 compared to 27.3 in the USA or 63.5 in Sweden. Add to that the wide variation in estimates of the incidence of rape in the United States from one study to the next. What is the explanation for these widely varied statistics?
To place the blame at the feet of a gender is overly simplistic, perpetrates a false stereotype as incorrect as women and driving or woman and shoes, and is ultimately useless.
Wikipedia
My own opinion is that rape is actually a problem of violent crime in general, with rape simply being a subclassification of that larger group. Address the roots of violent crime (poverty, wealth disparity, living wage and access to quality education) and the incidence of rape will also fall.

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Response to Android3.14 (Reply #9)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 09:46 AM

13. How would you explain the high statistic in Sweden?

To take your points:

My own opinion is that rape is actually a problem of violent crime in general, with rape simply being a subclassification of that larger group. Address the roots of violent crime (poverty, wealth disparity, living wage and access to quality education) and the incidence of rape will also fall.


For example, Canada has a per-capita occurrence of rape at 1.7 per 1000 compared to 27.3 in the USA or 63.5 in Sweden.



Sweden enjoys great economic equality and has one of the highest standards of living in the world

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Response to leftstreet (Reply #13)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 10:09 AM

16. As British Prime Minister Disraeli once quipped, there are

 

"lies, damned lies, and statistics".

The statistics the poster cites are prefaced with the following qualification (lightly edited for formatting purposes):

This list indicates the number of, and per capita cases of recorded rape. It does not include cases of rape which go unreported, or which are not recorded. Nor does it specify whether recorded means reported, brought to trial, or convicted. Nor does it take the different definition of rape around the world into account.


Having lived in Sweden for extended periods of time (in Stockholm and Malmo back in the 80s and 90s) and the U.S. for the majority of my life, I am reasonably certain that the incidence of rape is actually far higher in the U.S. than in Sweden. But my certainty at this point is based on nothing more than my feelings having lived in both countries.

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Response to leftstreet (Reply #13)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 10:09 AM

18. Exactly.

That's the very reason I included the number.
The situation is more complex than a simple "men are pigs, therefore men should not be pigs" response.
I should have said "My own opinion is that rape in the United States..."

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Response to leftstreet (Reply #13)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 10:24 AM

26. You simply cannot compare these statistics so simplistically.

Police procedures and legal definitions can be extremely different.

In 2005 there was a major reform of sex crime legislation in Sweden. The legal definition was expanded greatly.

In Sweden, they don't laugh at women, they record EVERY case of sexual violence. If a woman reports that her boss sexually harasses her, they record EVERY SINGLE INSTANCE separately. Not one woman, one type of crime, one report for dozens of incidents.

The increases in Sweden are also attributable to the fact that more women bother to report. Guess why.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #26)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 10:28 AM

28. I get that

But the poster was claiming economic equality lessens rape crimes

Just hoping s/he would explain that

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Response to leftstreet (Reply #28)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 02:38 PM

50. I wish people would read

Actually, I said, in my opinion, economic inequality is one of the roots of violent crime, and rape is a subclassification of violent crime.
However, after a brief bit of research, the data backing up something that really ought to be commonsense was easy enough to find. And now for the supporting documentation....
Wikiepedia to get you started.
a study for wiki snobs who distrust all things wiki
And a correlation as it relates to rape specifically.
"The findings also indicate that rape is related to the general level of economic inequality and racial income inequality."
Do I get extra credit?
Let's use some common sense out there folks.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 09:48 AM

14. Rape numbers have dropped every year since internet porn

 

A 44% drop since 1995.

This is not exactly an epidemic, So we don't need to do something SOON.

We need to deal with reality:

Porn is good, because it lowers the numbers of sexual violence.
Men are happy to masturbate to porn and then go to sleep.
Make it more available and sexual assault will decrease more.

Two problems solved: 1) Employment for those who want it -there's a kink for everyone, and 2)Lower levels of rape.

Sorry to those whose feelings are hurt. The Constitution guarantees a lot of things. Freedom from hurt feelings is not one of those things. Get used to it.


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Response to Eyes of the World (Reply #14)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 10:13 AM

19. Do you have any source for the numbers you so blithely toss about? - n/t

 

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Reply #19)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 10:26 AM

27. Those numbers are SO popular.

Here's some information about that oh-so-popular myth.

http://www.fightthenewdrug.org/science/articles/PORN-AND-SEXUAL-CRIME/

...

So what’s the catch? Why is there support for both sides? Well, the porn pushers love to talk about these studies because they seem to validate their points. What they don’t like to talk about is how the people who have since reviewed these studies have found some major flaws in the conclusions. It turns out that there are a couple of things that distorted the results.

First of all, at the same time that pornography was legalized in all of those countries, a lot of other sex crimes including peeping, “indecency towards women,” and certain types of incest, were also made legal. So with those things no longer considered a crime, it’s no wonder the crime rates dropped.

Second, Kutchinsky put rape in the same category as less serious sex crimes. That made it easier to hide the fact that serious crimes like rape actually increased after pornography was legalized in Denmark (5).

Porn advocates also don’t like to talk much about the results of studies in Sweden, Great Britain, New Zealand, and Australia, where the number of rapes increased when the constraints on the availability of pornography were lifted. Like how “when South Australia liberalized its laws on pornography and Queensland maintained its conservative policy . . . the number of rapes in Queensland remained at the same low level while South Australia’s showed a six fold increase” over a 13 year period (25).

...

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Response to redqueen (Reply #27)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 12:00 PM

43. This is probably more accurate....

From Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_effects_of_pornography

"The link between pornography and sexual aggression has been the subject of multiple metaanalyses. Metaanalyses conducted in the 1990s suggested to researchers that there might not be an association of any kind between pornography and rape supportive attitudes in non-experimental studies. However, a metaanalysis by Hald, et al (2010) suggests that there is a link between consumption of violent pornography and rape-supportive attitudes in certain populations of men, particularly when moderating variables are taken into consideration."

In other words, if you have rape-supportive attitudes, you're more likely to be influenced by violent porn.

As to the findings of Kutchinsky, they were both subsequently supported and refuted over the years.

I just have a problem with relying on 1970's studies, which mainly rely on a mindset and information from earlier, many of those were found to be questionable now, such a the Rorschach Test MMPI, religious influences, poor data gathering or no adequate data gathering and rigid mindsets. If you go to a Psychologist and they pull out the Rorschach Test, be very wary of them. The inkblots are now disclosed and open for public viewing so anyone can study up on them.

Now, I am all for research and inquiry, but going to a site that is pushing one specific agenda for facts is akin to an 'Agenda 21' researcher going to a Glenn Beck site to post information.

(I am done with this post as there are just to many things that can be said and one stat will refute another. I've had family that were victims of rape and sexual violence and I am trying to keep things in perspective.)

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Response to redqueen (Reply #27)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 04:37 AM

85. "fightthenewdrug" list, among their 'scientific' sources, James Dobson and Donald Hilton.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #85)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 07:34 AM

89. Will you be refuting the information re: the altered definitions of rape?

Or is smearing by association your only comment?

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Response to redqueen (Reply #89)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 12:33 PM

109. According to the DOJ, the forcible rape rate has decreased approx. 25% since the 1992 peak.

That is the rate of incidence per 100,000 people.

http://ucrdatatool.gov/

Is your assertion that the DOJ is lying or otherwise deliberately promoting an agenda?

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #109)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 01:54 PM

131. Forcible rape, are you kidding me?

Isn't that a made up word from the gaping maw of Paul Ryan or one of those filthy creatures?

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Response to Whisp (Reply #131)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 05:35 PM

142. It's from the US Department of Justice. Their wording, not mine.

If you have alternate data that contradicts the USDOJ data, by all means, post it.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #109)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 02:07 PM

133. "the UCR Program changed its definition of rape."

Note: In December 2011, the UCR Program changed its definition of rape. The rape definition change applies only to the traditional Summary Reporting System. The forcible rape statistics on this table-building tool have been reported according to the historical definition. See UCR Offense Definitions. (emphasis added; from the provided above)


From the UCR Offense Definitions

Forcible rape—The carnal knowledge of a female forcibly and against her will. Rapes by force and attempts or assaults to rape, regardless of the age of the victim, are included. Statutory offenses (no force used—victim under age of consent) are excluded.

(please note changes in definitions)

Note: In December 2011, the UCR Program changed its SRS definition of rape: "Penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim." The effect of this definition change will not be seen in reported crime data until after January 2013. Data reported from prior years will not be revised. (emphasis added)






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Response to Cerridwen (Reply #133)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 05:33 PM

140. Right, the definition was changed in 2011. The data reflects the old definition.

Nowhere in the course of the data range I provided, was the definition changed.

So therefore, the trend is valid. The numbers as per the old definition peaked in '92 and have subsequently decreased, to a level at 75% of their 1980 number- again, all under the old definition. The point is, the definition has been consistent throughout the data range.

One could, I suppose, speculate on an opposite trend occurring over those years as per the amended definition, but what would that sort of speculation be based upon?

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Response to redqueen (Reply #89)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 03:52 AM

147. Any article using that leaderu crap as a source is extremely tainted, imo...

It's anti-woman, anti-choice, RW extremism, as far as I'm concerned.

I've been appalled by some posts here over the past few days when it comes to attitudes about rape, but I don't see those attitudes as having anything to do with porn, nor do I find anything in that article persuasive at all when it comes to a link between rape and porn.

Take this bit for instance:

'Porn advocates also don’t like to talk much about the results of studies in Sweden, Great Britain, New Zealand, and Australia, where the number of rapes increased when the constraints on the availability of pornography were lifted. Like how “when South Australia liberalized its laws on pornography and Queensland maintained its conservative policy . . . the number of rapes in Queensland remained at the same low level while South Australia’s showed a six fold increase” over a 13 year period (25).'

I've got no idea over what 13 year period that was, but there's no attempt to show how that increase in South Australia and the low level in Queensland was linked to porn and how other influences couldn't have been responsible. For example, Queensland was for many years home to the most conservative neanderthal RW state government in Australia. It was literally like stepping back into the 1950's, and that would explain a consistantly low rate of reported rapes, because there was an environment where women were discouraged from reporting rape. South Australia had a very liberal government for much of the same time. What else was happening in South Australia over that time to explain the rise? Was it reflected in other states? Porn's always been legal here in the Australian Capital Territory, so if the numbers are low here, doesn't that just throw everything out with that study? Also, once the internet came on the scene with all that free porn, shouldn't the numbers of rapes in places where porn was still illegal gone right through the roof?

I'm off to buy a farm now. I don't know why, but every time I play Farmville2, I get that really strong urge!

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Response to Eyes of the World (Reply #14)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 10:18 AM

22. But rape is an issue about power.

Sexual violence in rape is an assertion of power over women. So your premise is screwed up right at the get go...

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Response to Eyes of the World (Reply #14)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 10:21 AM

24. Interesting theory....but...

I suppose you could make the argument that intenet porn is directly accountable for the decline in rape...I'm not sure I buy it, but would be interested to see studies on it...

I think one thing to keep in mind is that rape is NOT only about sex - some will argue that it is not about sex at all, but I can potentially see where date rape, rape of married woman (or man) etc. could START out as being about sex...maybe...still not sure.... We do know that rape is about control, dominance, and violence. Internet porn will never replace those "needs" in some men.

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Response to 2theleft (Reply #24)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 11:46 AM

40. the decline can also be the concerted effort of police force across the nation to downgrade rapes

not report them, back file them, that we have seen as a HUGE issue.

i can think of ten more reasons for this supposed miracle in drop of numbers

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #40)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 05:27 PM

55. yeah, no one has found a correlation. except for lonely teenaged boys, LOL.

Interesting any of these gimme posts from guys think they are helping.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #40)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 12:47 PM

118. For that to work, statistically, this would have to be a uniform concerted effort that has gotten

Worse in the past 30 years.

Not to say it never happens- but, again, for that to gel with the USDOJ's own numbers on rape rates, it would have to be a situation that has gotten worse across the board. Deliberately.

In short, that is a very serious, broad-based accusation to make against law enforcement. Do you have a source for it?

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #118)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 01:22 PM

123. yes and you can find documention starting in the 90's. i have provided it so many times

as men will ask for it. then they immediately dismiss without reading. i no longer take the time to provide the info. google is your friend. i have learned to do this, if i feel that i need to know more about the subject.

and yes.... i can think of a good ten other reasons.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #123)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 01:24 PM

124. You have provided it... Where?

Can you at least give a Link to where you've provided it?

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Response to Eyes of the World (Reply #14)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 05:22 PM

53. you don't want to do something about the 25% of your friends and family that will be raped?

Then admit you're so selfish that it;s unlikely that anyone of the many girls you've met will never tell you, because you say publicly you think it;s not a big deal.

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Response to Eyes of the World (Reply #14)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 10:54 PM

67. There's correlation there, but not necessarily causation.

Causation would rest being able to show that rape is a crime of sexual frustration, rather than a crime driven by issues of power relations and the way we process emotion.

And I'm not sure it's appropriate to bring the question of porn into this thread.

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Response to Eyes of the World (Reply #14)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 12:56 PM

119. So we take away porn and men turn into rapists?

Wow.

I take it you don't know what the treatment is for sex offenders is. I'll give you a guess. It's not more porn.

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #119)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 01:33 PM

126. Nope. Porn doesnt prevent rape. Porn also doesnt CAUSE rape.

The original assertion, back in the day, was "porn causes rape, and increased availability of porn is going to translate into sexual assault." This can be traced back to the late 70s and early 80s, promoted by.. Well, I'm sure you are familiar with the names and alliances.

This has been fairly definitively disproven by the fact- and this is coming from the USDOJ- that rape rates have declined. So either the USDOJ is lying, or somehow porn isnt more available than it was 30 years ago (unlikely) or the assertion that porn is somehow implicated in rape is simply not true.

It is disingenuous, however, to turn that around and suggest that any refutation of the porn=rape assertion, somehow tranlates to an argument that "people need porn or they'll rape". Someone may have said that, but its a completely different argument.

What the facts bear out, actually, is that porn and rape dont have anything to do with each other. Either way.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 09:54 AM

15. Historically, the methods for doing so was castration

Eunuchs were created with the objective of providing trustworthy individuals to perform official government functions, serve as assistants to highly-placed women, etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eunuch

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Response to FarCenter (Reply #15)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 10:09 AM

17. People are going to jump on you for pointing this out

Last edited Sun Dec 2, 2012, 11:39 AM - Edit history (1)

But you are correct to do so. If the same type of OP was started about women the witch hunts would be in full force.

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Response to Renew Deal (Reply #17)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 10:21 AM

25. "witch hunts"?

The poster is factually wrong about why men rape. I am certainly not engaged in a witch hunt in pointing that out.

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Response to CTyankee (Reply #25)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 10:15 PM

64. My original message wasn't worded properly

I fixed it. Sorry about the confusion. And I agree with your comment.

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Response to Renew Deal (Reply #64)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 10:57 PM

68. My OP didn't call for a war against men.

It called for men to change masculinity.

Nothing I suggested in the OP would lead to men being persecuted at all...on the contrary, radically changing masculinity
would be liberating for the vast majority of men.

Sorry to hear that you seem to find that idea threatening.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #68)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 11:42 PM

74. But see. these posts are a reaction to crazy ideas in their heads...LOL.. now I'm wanting to deprive

men of civil rights for promoting education.
It's kind of shocking these posters feel entitled to any kind of respectful reply.

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Response to Renew Deal (Reply #17)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 05:31 PM

56. we really cannot escape the fact that rape is 98% done by men. and we won't STFU because this

hurts or embarrasses you. It SHOULD hurt and embarrass you- those are 25% of your female family and friends victimized by this.
Why are they not open to telling you? It starts with this man vs woman thing in your head. We women didn't make it this way.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #56)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 10:14 PM

63. I'm not sure who you are referring to.

Or what you think is in my "head." Those thoughts, assumptions, and feelings are in your head. It's up to you to sort through it all. Now, if you actually want to know something about me, feel free to ask.

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Response to Renew Deal (Reply #63)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 11:01 PM

71. I was referring to the witch hunt bullshit

which is related to the "they blame all us men" straw man....
People do all sorts of shit stirring here, and that is where it started.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #56)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 05:06 AM

86. Here's the problem with that

Talking about 98% is done by men of is highly dismissive of people that have been abused by females. One possibly explanation is underreporting, which is more likely to occur if the victim feels that they're an outlier. I've seen studies showing reports of children abused by women to be far above the conviction rates. Since sexual abuse thrives where it's hidden, we should not, at all, be dismissive of any kind of abuse. It's not like doing so is somehow helpful to women - female offenders prey on females just as male offenders prey on males (and male on male prison rape is probably one of the most normalized types of sexual assault there is).

I suppose some people see this as a kind of competition between men and women, but I'm not terribly interested in a rape competition. I'm interested in doing what we can to rid the world of sexual violence.

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Response to Chathamization (Reply #86)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 10:58 AM

90. You can feel free to advocate for violence against men. BUT

That's NOT what we are talking about. That's the problem with YOUR post- it's off topic and designed to derail the discussion.
That's a violation of the rules here. (I do LOVE education)

Stop trying to derail THIS conversation- because that does nothing to help your cause and only creates that "false competition" you claim to abhor.
Seriously- if it's not your issue- violence against women- that's okay. If you're doing all this great advocacy or research about violence against men feel free to start a thread. Send us links to all the great work you're doing- we'd love to support you.
And we'd love you to support us. You can try and show support here, but we'd rather you drop the effort to make this about your pet issue. Obviously it is not.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #90)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 11:14 AM

91. Sorry, but

the original post says rape. And it's talking about the "rape threads." Not "violence against women." Not "violence against women threads." To act like rape is only by men against women, or that is the only "legitimate rape," is offensive. If you want to start a thread about violence against women, I'm not going to complain that you aren't talking about men (though I would hope that you wouldn't be dismissive of women who have been victims of other women). But to say that rape against men, or against women by women, is somehow off-topic or trying to derail the topic in in a discussion about rape is terrible.

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Response to Chathamization (Reply #91)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 11:31 AM

93. Sorry this OP is about lessening the violence men do. Just as the thread

With the poster was about patriarchy, and that societies default position was to only educate women on the issue, and not cast a wider net by educating all youth about the issue.

Retread the OPs. They aren't about your issue. So yes- you and dozens of people tried to make it about something else and stubbornly try and disrupt the conversation.

You can start another topic anytime, if you are sincere in your efforts to create awareness. Choosing to disrupt this topic instead and referencing some man Vs woman war doesn't make you look like a serious advocate for men who have been raped. It makes you look like you can't comprehend the OP.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #93)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 12:13 PM

105. "My issue"

And here I was thinking that rape was a universal issue.

First, my comment was a response to yours, not the OP. I didn't reply to the OP and say "let's not talk about that, let's talk about other things." I replied to your comment, "we really cannot escape the fact that rape is 98% done by men," and pointed out the problems made by that statement.

Your attitude that your comment is fine to make, but anyone that takes issue with that comment is trying to derail the conversation, smacks more of trying to silence dissent than following the rules.

Second, this sentence:

"Seriously- if it's not your issue- violence against women- that's okay. If you're doing all this great advocacy or research about violence against men feel free to start a thread."

is just wrong, even if you think staying on topic means to not deviate from the OP at all.

Third, I think that the cultural idea of masculinity is a big reason why people tend to be dismissive of rape against men, and it's not insignificant in the issue of female on female rape either.

And I should point out, once again, that though you think this is "my issue," I had no interest in bringing this up with the OP. My comment was a responsive to what seemed to be a dismissive comment in your post, which I felt was important to point out.

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Response to Chathamization (Reply #105)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 12:46 PM

117. You're issue was we're unfair to the small percentage of men who are victims because we

Are talking about violence against women.
By your own measure, we're also very unfair to baby seals. Just because we refuse to switch focus to suit you.

Start your own topic about women who abuse, because this very clearly is not OT.
It's not about you! Stop disrupting please.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #117)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 12:58 PM

122. I took issue with your statement

That doesn't make it "my issue." And no, the OP did not specify violence against women. In fact, he says:

"In addition to trying to change the way men treat women(and each other), what I'm talking about is trying to liberate men from the constraints we impose on ourselves in the name of "masculinity" and "macho"."

The way men treat women, the way they treat each other, and the constraints imposed by masculinity. Even if you want to pretend that I wasn't responding to a comment that you made and was responding to the OP instead, not only does the OP not specify that this is about violence against women, he makes it explicitly clear in that quote he's not just talking about violence against women.

As you say, "we refuse to switch focus to suit you." I really don't know why it bothers you so much that this isn't an issue exclusively about violence against women by men. But it's not. If you want to start a topic about that, go ahead, but that's not what this is.

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Response to Chathamization (Reply #122)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 02:58 PM

135. You'd like to talk instead about women abusing men and its OT

So are a million other things (mostly) guys bring up to disrupt or attempt to delegitimize the conversation.

Sorry, but it is incredibly off topic and I'm not going to entertain your "concerns".
If it really mattered to you, you'd start a conversation instead of disrupting this thread.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #135)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 03:26 PM

136. No.

This is easy. I'm not saying we should talk instead about women abusing men. I'm saying the problem with the statement you made is that it's dismissive of some forms of rape. The fact that you've continued to be dismissive of other forms of rape in your followups underscores this. I'm not even saying that we should be talking about other forms of rape here (though I do think several would be on topic), I'm saying we shouldn't make dismissive comments about certain kinds of rape in a topic about rape. And I don't think that comment should require a new topic. I'm not going to start a new topic just to say that I have a problem with a comment you made.

If you think that's disruptive, delegitimizes the conversation, or is incredibly off topic - well, we'll just have to disagree.

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Response to Renew Deal (Reply #17)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 11:04 PM

72. The original "witch hunts" actually led to men(often churchmen) having women burned to death.

Are you really sure you want to invoke that image to make whatever point you're trying to make?

Also, nothing I talked about equated to waging war against men-In addition to trying to change the way men treat women(and each other), what I'm talking about is trying to liberate men from the constraints we impose on ourselves in the name of "masculinity" and "macho".

How do you get a call for gender persecution out of THAT?

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 10:18 AM

21. There have never been 'revolutionary' changes in human behavior.

People are stubborn unto Death. I agree we can and should work toward a more intelligent and caring society but it won't happen overnight.

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Response to randome (Reply #21)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 10:40 AM

30. Women were essentially property until the end of the 19th century.

African Americans were de jure property until after the civil war, and many existed in a de facto condition of serfdom until the Great Depression, WWII, the mechanization of agriculture, and the civil rights movement ended the Jim Crow era in the south.

Revolutionary, sweeping change is indeed possible.

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Response to Warren Stupidity (Reply #30)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 10:54 AM

34. Women still are property in a significant part of the world, and they rely on men elsewhere

Women still require the support and protection of men in a large part of the world. See news stories about the Lake Region in Africa, for instance.

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Response to FarCenter (Reply #34)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 12:10 PM

47. Oh absolutely, and in many areas women's rights are diminishing.

I was referring specifically to the united states and to the assertion, basically, that nothing can change, despite the historical fact that there have been periods of sweeping social change in this country, including for example right now with respect to LGBTQ rights.

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Response to Warren Stupidity (Reply #30)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 11:43 AM

39. I meant 'revolutionary' in the sense of speed.

Over time, yes, change occurs. Women and other minorities are still not where they want to be.

If we can speed up the process of change, so much the better. It just won't happen quickly enough. I think it's important to acknowledge that.

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Response to randome (Reply #39)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 12:14 PM

48. The period of time: 1950-1980 not fast enough?

That would be approximately the sweeping changes of the civil rights era and the 20th century woman's rights movement, both of which ran their course until the Reagan counter-revolution. A period of broad sweeping social change.

We are in another period of sweeping social change, the 'culture war' initiated by the Reagan counter revolution has run its course, and the LGBTQ rights movement is leading a renewal of progressive social change, sweeping progressive social change, that is again transforming our society.

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Response to Warren Stupidity (Reply #48)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 12:38 PM

49. Thirty years is fast enough in an historical context.

But I would argue that civil rights was simply an extension of the abolition of slavery so I think it's fair to say it's been more than a hundred years for the vestiges of that to disappear, and we're not quite there yet.

As for women, they had voting rights since the 1920s. They should have had equal rights in all other areas at the same time.

Our society's awareness of the ill treatment of women and minorities goes back much further.

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Response to randome (Reply #21)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 10:58 PM

69. "revolutionary" doesn't have to mean instant.

Most of the world's revolutions were decades, even centuries in coming.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 10:20 AM

23. Ken, at the risk of sounding like one of those doctrinaire Soviets, I would argue that

 

the economic system of exploitation and plunder partially determines the status of gender relations.

Our current economic system preaches and is built around the idea that is is perfectly acceptable, neigh even 'moral,' for one person to profit off the labor of another and, in that type of system, all sorts of horrors will express themselves in the cultural superstructure that arises.

This doctrinaire Marxist-Leninst says, "Change the substructure and the superstructure must follow."

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Reply #23)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 11:00 PM

70. Changing masculinity can, in fact, be part of the process of changing the system of exploitation.

You can create the conditions for changing the economic system by changing the people trapped within it...by each of us, in short, making our own lives a "liberated zone" and, in so doing, giving each other the strength to make that change to.

It's a way of both "being the change" and spreading the change.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #70)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 02:30 AM

84. A beautiful and evocative description of dialectics (where superstructure

 

exists in creative tension with substructure and is not simply over-determined by it).

Marx (and Lenin) would no doubt approve

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 10:48 AM

32. I think that it needs to be EVOLUTIONARY, ie

make change by a large leap.

You are right on KB, but revolutionary seems to me to be on the same path of revolting, not changing. Semantics to be sure, but I think that maybe it's important distinction.

Thanks for knowing the need.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 10:50 AM

33. Agree.

You have to learn to control yourself before you presume to try to tell other people what to do. Relationships must be negotiated by mutual consent. Nobody gets an automatic right to give orders or be catered to.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 11:06 AM

35. K&R!

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 11:49 AM

41. love your post. it is easy in the parenting. no one looses. it is win, win, win

win for man. win for woman. win for society.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 11:55 AM

42. Great post, especially this:


Rape is a product, more than anything else, I think, of the values that society prizes in men...the suppression of all emotions except anger, the fixation with "winning", the importance of asserting dominance at all cost, the refusal to accept "no" as an answer(because to do so would be taken as weakness)...and the way that those values cause corrode already damaged men and drive them to inflicting damage on others(including rape).


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Response to raccoon (Reply #42)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 07:20 PM

61. the fixation with winning and dominance at any cost is displayed in most posts attempting to quell

discussion here. I can't help to conclude there's a subconscious empathy with men's anger in a lot of these posters.
I've seen a lot of the anger first hand, simply for not validating the poor me bullshit they peddle.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 12:05 PM

44. "It's on us men"? Okay, well here's the starting point: award child custody to fathers.

The father in the home is a protective factor for all forms of violence for kids, improves educational outcomes and is particularly effective at instilling a moral code in boys. Unfortunately, one third of kids live in a home with an alienated father.

http://www.childwelfare.gov/pubs/usermanuals/fatherhood/chaptertwo.cfm
http://www.fatherhood.org/media/consequences-of-father-absence-statistics

The problem isn't masculinity, the problem is in the form idealized in popular entertainment. My dad was a real man, he could regularly carry a #100 pound sack of cement on each shoulder. My neighbor was a real man, he could diagnose and fix anything. My HS english teacher was a real man, he could inspire people through word and deed and although shorter than many of his students, wouldn't put up with kids bullying one another at all. My son's gay best friend is a real man, he's about 6" taller than me and weight about 270#. He's gentle to a fault and works 70 hours a week driving truck to support him and his partner.

The definition of masculinity is flexible enough to encompass all four. I don't see any compelling need to make them conform to your masculine archetype. At any rate, rape isn't a masculine attribute.

If your intent was to make an lecture OP directed exclusively at men, it might have been useful to post it in the men's group. If your intent was to troll for recommends, then you made the better choice.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #44)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 05:24 PM

54. why are all the man posts advocating for more for them, LOL. Porn, custody rights...

Interesting.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #44)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 12:12 AM

79. Are you saying award full custody to fathers? In all cases?

What parameters are you setting for your proposal there?

There may be times when a father is simply not the model of manhood a young boy needs.

I wasn't trolling for recommends.

And I think I'll go ahead now and actually cross-post the OP in the Men's Group.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 12:10 PM

46. Great post!

"As truth is gathered, I rearrange...inside out, outside in, perpetual change"
(From the song Perpetual Change, by Yes)

We women have much work to do on our collective perspective and identities as well.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 03:02 PM

51. At risk of being called misygonist

I think we should be careful in analyzing the alleged data. For example - my son was (falsely) accused of rape. I'm sure that if asked the young woman would answer that "she has been raped". Yet if anyone was rapped that night it was my son not her yet it cost me several thousand dollars to establish his innocence. She was then told by the police that if she continued to pursue charges they would charge her. I should have sued her but my son wouldn't let me. Sure she's suffering from a psychological disconnect but that isn't the fault of "men".

This is personal to me and I don't accept knee jerk answers. Rape is obviously a horrible thing. So is a false accusation of the same.

I would accept a reassessment of "manhood" if women would agree that they should do the same for womanhood. For such thoughts I'm labeled a misygonist.

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Response to jimlup (Reply #51)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 12:08 AM

78. The question of why false accusations of rape are occasionally made

should have a thread of its own.

Sorry for your personal bad experience with this, but I'm not sure how it ties into the theme of the thread.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #78)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 07:29 AM

88. Trust me it does

The raw fact (if you bother to investigate) is that "false accusations" are not all that "rare". Thus I tend to give a very skeptical eye to studies that say X% of women were raped in such and such circumstance. I question the bias of the researchers asking the question. That is all.

As a matter of fact, my wife was "raped" way back in the first few months when I first knew her. She absolutely was by all of the definitions anyone would consider yet she got over it and I doubt that she would even remember it if you asked her in a survey if she had ever been "raped". Some women obsess about this issue. I know that from lots of personal experience. Take my information and dismiss it or consider it part of the narrative, your choice.

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Response to jimlup (Reply #88)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 11:34 AM

94. Wow- you suggest women who were raped should "get over it" because your wife did?

Are you fucking serious. I feel sorry for your wife, but not why you'd guess.

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Response to jimlup (Reply #88)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 11:39 AM

95. my wife was "raped"

Putting the word rape in quotation marks is the height of nastiness. Shame on you,my sympathies to your wife, although not for the reasons you mentioned.

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Response to sufrommich (Reply #95)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 11:40 AM

96. Repulsive to suggest women should get over it

Poor wife, indeed.

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Response to sufrommich (Reply #95)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 12:57 PM

121. God

Unbelievable.

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Response to jimlup (Reply #88)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 11:45 AM

97. You put "rape" in scare quotes

And also tell women who have been raped to get over it, and also think a girl who accused your son of raping her was a liar?

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Response to jimlup (Reply #88)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 11:49 AM

100. There is so much wrong with this post that I don't know where to begin.

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Response to Marrah_G (Reply #100)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 11:57 AM

101. But it's not a TOS violation because misogynistic crap

Is allowed here- especially if the poster wraps it in a "personal anecdote"

This site has become a sewer for rape apologists. There's no other way to read that post.

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Response to Marrah_G (Reply #100)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 12:02 PM

102. I alerted, it was allowed to stand 4-2.

I wasn't the first to alert as I got this back:

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)

YOUR COMMENTS:

Minimizing rape by putting it in quotation marks and telling victims to get over it.Sickening.

JURY RESULTS

A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Mon Dec 3, 2012, 10:46 AM, and voted 2-4 to LEAVE IT ALONE.

Thank you.

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Response to jimlup (Reply #88)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 12:03 PM

103. MRA buddy, damn straight the MRA will tell us women false claim rape 45-75%, those.... right?

Last edited Mon Dec 3, 2012, 03:10 PM - Edit history (1)

we should only listen to MRA to tell you how horrible these women are, that abuse you. hey, fbi and the counter in england say 2-3%. but, they have an agenda, right? MRA though, they would be the honest info. no agenda there.

and the little woman. well hell, with you telling women how they are suppose process their rape, damn well bet she would NEVER discuss it with you.

good job, showing us exactly where you are coming from.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #103)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 12:08 PM

104. + 100000. nt

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Response to jimlup (Reply #88)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 12:18 PM

106. I was sexually molested when I was six

Should I "get over it"?

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Response to lunatica (Reply #106)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 12:21 PM

108. I just feel like crying right now.

Where the hell are the admins?

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Response to jimlup (Reply #88)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 12:35 PM

111. Todd Akin posts at DU apparently, hence the "legitimate rape"

language being used here.

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Response to jimlup (Reply #88)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 12:35 PM

112. Trust me, if you have been raped you don't forget it,

unless it was so traumatic that you blocked all memory of it as a self-protective mechanism.

Just from your few posts in this thread, I suspect that it will be a cold day in hell before she mentions its real impact on her life to you because according to you she was only "raped," not raped - and she knows how you feel about all those lyin' women, and those women who don't just get over it and pull themselves up by their bootstraps.

I'm one of the lucky ones - I was not physically injured, aside from the forced sex acts, I never blamed myself, and it has very little impact on my day to day life, and hasn't since the first couple of years after the rape. I have minor PTSD - mostly in connection with phone calls and where I sit in a restaurant. No one interacting with me in real life would ever know I had been raped - and many people in my life don't know that is part of my history. But even as completely and quickly as I thought I recovered, there were pieces of my recovery my psyche was not ready to deal with until about the 20th anniversary of the date I was raped - and I had to go through recovery all over again (albeit at an accelerated pace). I talk about it here because other survivors need to know they are not alone - and women like your wife whose significant others' think they don't even remember it - need to know that there are people who understand and care.

I find your commentary about false reporting offensive - discussions of other crimes are virtually never accompanied by commentary about false reporting in an attempt to discredit the reality of those crimes, despite the false reports being (on average) is roughly the same.

But it is your use of your wife, and your denial of the reality of her experience, that I find beyond the pale. I hope you will self delete at least that portion of your commentary. You almost certainly have it wrong and, bottom line, it is her story to tell, not yours.

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Response to jimlup (Reply #88)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 12:39 PM

114. Cool story, bro

my wife was "raped" way back in the first few months when I first knew her. She absolutely was by all of the definitions anyone would consider yet she got over it and I doubt that she would even remember it if you asked her in a survey if she had ever been "raped". Some women obsess about this issue.



But if most rapes are only alleged in your world, and most people forget that they were raped because it is not such a big deal after all, and therefore respond with "no" on such surveys, that kind of cancels each other out, right? Then the statistics are true after all ... I know.. I just totally blew your mind.

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Response to jimlup (Reply #88)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 12:40 PM

115. how come no response to all the replies??

 

Come on, you sound like a tough guy and that you have a strong opinion on the subject. Surely, you aren't cowardly enough to avoid discussing this further and responding to all the replies?

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Response to jimlup (Reply #88)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 01:40 PM

127. What a repulsive post.

With an attitude like yours I have to reason to believe the woman your son raped is lying. The apple does fall far from the tree.

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Response to jimlup (Reply #88)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 01:49 PM

128. There are not "good" rape victims and "bad" rape victims.

Nobody thinks your wife "should" have PTSD.

But it's highly offensive to suggest that those who DO have PTSD as a result of being raped are drama queens who are "obsessing" over it, or that somehow those victims aren't "doing it right."

This is as offensive as suggesting that soldiers returning from war who have PTSD should just get over it.

That is not the only thing offensive about your post, but it is one of them.

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Response to jimlup (Reply #88)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 01:51 PM

130. Your wife must be in hell. You make me want to puke out my lungs.

You have a wife who was raped, and the first thing you do--is talk about all of the false accusations that women make about rape--which is a tactic that people with an agenda--use to demonize and discredit rape, sexual assault and child-molestation victims.

Why are you married to a rape victim and simultaneously carrying water for the rape-discreditation brigade?

And to suggest that your wife wouldn't answer in the affirmative, if someone taking a survey, asked her if she was raped--leads me to believe that you are full of shit.

Your story is so full of revolting malarkey and contradictions--that I don't even believe it's true. I think you posted to demonize rapists and that you also made up the story about your wife being raped. Oh excuse me, "raped."

You're nonsense--and so is the bizarre notion that false accusations are rare. Ninety percent of women who are raped or sexually abused as children--never tell. Sexual abuse is an epidemic in this country.

So before you post your bullshit, just know that many of us see through the bullshit and are no longer putting up with it.
This isn't the 1970's honey.

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Response to jimlup (Reply #88)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 02:40 PM

134. Why on Earth should we "trust" you and your "personal experience"?

Please convince me.

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Response to jimlup (Reply #88)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 03:28 PM

137. As I expected... I've been accused of Misgyony simple for expression my position.

Not a big surprise. I've seen it on here before.

Obviously there is a spectrum of "rapes". Human behavior is not a binary operation. Sorry, I know I'm way out numbered and have no hope of discussing this calmly with anyone here because no one here is capable of listening to what I have to say.

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Response to jimlup (Reply #137)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 05:29 PM

139. Oh no. You're guilty of much worse than misogyny.

I don't even know how to characterize that post.

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Response to jimlup (Reply #88)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 05:28 PM

138. This is one of the worst things I've read on DU. Really?

Your wife was "raped" - which you put in scare quotes even though you state that it "absolutely was by all the definitions" rape, and yet you state that she "got over it" and you actually think that she would not even remember it????!!!

Really. Really?

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Response to jimlup (Reply #88)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 06:29 PM

143. It's disturbing that you put the word "raped" in quote marks.

Anytime that's done to a word, it implies that there's some reason the person reading the word should question its truthfulness.

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Response to jimlup (Reply #88)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 01:00 AM

146. Your post is an outrage and I alerted on it

and turns out a jury already rules that it was OK. What is going on with DU?

I ask that you self delete it.

Shame on you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Response to jimlup (Reply #51)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 12:36 PM

113. No, you get labeled a misogynist because you are a Todd Akin-style

caveman and rape apologist.

And a fucking misogynist.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 05:03 PM

52. Perhaps, as a woman,

I should not comment here, but I will.

I have been married to the same wonderful man since 1967 . That means we stayed married while I discovered the women 's movement and explored what it meant for me to be a woman. The movement had its fits and starts, (for example, women who worked outside the home being pitted against those who worked at home) but few would dispute that American women have changed dramatically since 1967. And yes, we've learned that true freedom means being able to make your own choices, not have choices dictated to you have sociatal "norms".

As women have changed, so have many men. But many men have been left clinging to the world they once knew. My husband is not the same man I married: he is a much better person. We raised our son to be more flexible about gender roles. At 36 , he is employed as an engineer, is married to a lovely woman who works part time, and who takes care of their two babies. But he also does most of the cooking and is very involved in caring for the children.

During my time with the women's movement, we had discussions about how men would also need to change. The wiser ones realized we could not change men: men would have to change themselves. It seems that that is what underlies the thoughtful OP. Some men, like my husband, have navigated the changing roles fairly well. But there are many others who perhaps need help with the introspection needed to define themselves as men in a very different world.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 06:13 PM

58. super enlightening comments after this blog post about how difficult friends and SOs can find it

to actually listen and support women in their lives who have serious fears or concerns about men in their social group. It's incredibly familiar to me, but I think for a lot of men, it will be an eye opener how very difficult getting any support can be.

The comments at the bottom are heartbreaking, scary, funny and priceless.


"Step 1: A creepy dude does creepy, entitled shit and makes women feel unsafe.

Step 2: The women speak up about it to their partners.

Step 3: It gets written off as “not a big deal” or “he probably didn’t mean it” or “he’s not a bad guy, really.” Any discussion of the bad behavior must immediately be followed by a complete audit of his better qualities or the sad things he’s suffered in the name of “fairness.” Once the camera has moved in and seen him in closeup as a real, human, suffering person, how can you (the object, always an object, as in “objectified,” as in a disembodied set of tits or orifices, or a Trapper Keeper, or a favorite coffee mug or a pet cat) be so cruel as to want to hold him accountable for his actions? Bitches, man.

Step 4: Everyone is worried about hurting creepy dude’s feelings or making it weird for creepy dude. Better yet, everyone is worried about how the other dudes in the friend group will feel if they are called out for enabling creepy dude. Women are worried that if they push the issue, that the entire friend group will side with creepy dude or that they’ll be blamed for causing “drama.” Look at how LW #323 put it: ”how can I approach this subject with my boyfriend, and make him understand a) how serious this is, and b) that he is not responsible for Ben’s reactions, without making him feel defensive?”

Wouldn’t want someone who covers up for and defends a proto-rapist to have to have SADFEELS, right? (LW, it’s not your fault you’re asking the question this way, it’s just that our culture sucks about this and your boyfriend and his friends have been giving you constant messages that Ben is to be coddled while you are to be shushed in the hopes that it will all blow over)."

http://captainawkward.com/2012/08/07/322-323-my-friend-group-has-a-case-of-the-creepy-dude-how-do-we-clear-that-up/#comment-20894

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 07:02 PM

60. I agree

Maybe it's time for an androgynous model of personhood that transcends gender idendity politics.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 07:41 PM

62. Not a man here either but K&R






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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 10:36 PM

65. We can get at the cultural norm where "strength" = "ruthless brutality."

We can attack the Ayn Randian idea that single-minded selfishness and a disregard for the well-being of others is a moral imperative. This nonsense has become the core of the Republican Party and a significant portion of Christian political movements,

We can call out weakness and fear claiming to be strength, calling itself patriotism, or extraordinary rendition, or war.

We can insist that diminishing women's reproductive rights is not something that just "women voters" will not tolerate.

We can take the position that men value women, for their own sake, in a specific way of our own that does not consist of sexual attraction.

We can do all of this, and that stupid fucking poster that kicked off all this crap, again, will still be a dishonest meme conflating crime prevention with victim blaming and "men" with "rapists."

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Response to DirkGently (Reply #65)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 10:51 PM

66. I never actually read the original post that seems to have started all this.

please send me a link to it in a pm.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #66)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 11:10 PM

73. some mens got upset that we feel more than the victims need education....

but both young women and men.
Apparently, many men here feel insulted by idea of cultural problems, and really angry anyone would think more education is a possible solution.
I don't see anyone saying anywhere all men are rapists or their friends, but many here have extrapolated that this is what it means when you ask for more awareness.
And their feelings are very very hurt by this- to the extent they feel completely entitled to disrupt every conversation here i a bid for pity. And to stop talking about rape, because hey- those stats are probably inflated anyway. And trying to educate men deprives them of their civil rights. But mostly their afraid of what people think of them.
Because this broadbrushing / sterotyping of men (in their heads, not here, mind you) is really so much more important than the 29.3% of victims that are under the age of 11.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1902170

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #73)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 11:59 PM

75. I just think the meme is based on a dishonest premise.


Granted, this time around, it's not as blatantly ugly as the one last time around that suggested a list of "rape-prevention tips for men," that included such enlightening thoughts as "Don't rape a woman in an elevator."

But the logical shortcut is still pretty silly. We aren't failing to address the cultural problem with sexual assault BECAUSE we teach rape-prevention to women. We teach people to lock their doors despite the fact that if we taught everyone not to steal, we wouldn't need to.

I don't know how deep the shit-flinging got in all those threads, because I wasn't there, but it is shit-flinging for its own sake, and it draws the same flies every time.

Why not just argue in good faith? No one thinks the onus of rape prevention should be on women. We teach college-aged women how to avoid rapists because the rapists aren't listening.

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Response to DirkGently (Reply #75)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 12:15 AM

80. Um... plenty here think "the onus of rape prevention should be on women" but you missed all that.

they also think somewhere someone here accused all men of being rapists. Lots of crazy disruptive stuff, and you know why?
Ego. They admittedly have little knowledge at all on the subject, totally distrust all the stats....but they have tons of knee jerk reactions and hurt feelings to share because those are super valuable.
Their biggest concern is women stereotyping them. But if they go around talking over everybody like this is real life, it's really no wonder they have big problems with women.

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Response to DirkGently (Reply #65)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 06:08 AM

87. Well said

A better society = a new definition of masculinity. The RethugliCon model for both men and women has to go.

Yep.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 12:00 AM

76. Rape is an emotional response.

It's not a product of whatever crap you're selling above (sorry, but I'm beyond what you're preaching already). Rape is "I want" and it's ego. Nothing more, nothing less.

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Response to flvegan (Reply #76)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 12:06 AM

77. I think it's also a reaction to a sense of powerlessness, among other things

And the abuse of power and power relations also contributes to it.

BTW, what, exactly do you mean by "I'm beyond what you're preaching already"?

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #77)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 11:47 AM

98. No it isn't -- that is blaming the victim

It is what Flvegan said. It is also about sociopaths.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #98)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 06:36 PM

144. Not blaming the victim at all...it's wrong to victimize anyone.

It's about why some become victimizers.

I would never blame the victim...the whole point of this thread was to reject that idea.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 12:44 AM

81. Sorry ... I think your are missing the point

This (the subject of rape) has nothing to do with deep psychological men's issues stuff.

It has everything to do with evil. Rape is evil. Evil men rape. Honor can be taught ... and so can evil. So part of the solution is teaching and valuing honor ... which means teaching discipline and duty and strength. Let's put it another way ... female empowerment has nothing to do with male dis empowerment. Rather, the challenge for men is to find ways to correctly express and exercise male power. "Correctly express" ... that will vary from individual to individual. A one size fits all solution will never be appropriate.

I have no problem with guys who want to be Mr. Mom. One my of best buds made that choice ... and he is a decorated veteran and literally a kung fu master. I can assure you the kids are well protected, and I laugh at anyone who questions his manhood. But that choice would not have worked for me, nor for a great many of his other friends. And solving this problem has nothing to do with choices of that sort ... it has to do with other choices. Like, will you be decent or will you be vile?

Good natured men confident of their strength neither fear nor resent the power of women and are thus unlikely to rape. Evil men will abuse their strength to gratify their egos. We can reduce rape somewhat by strengthening men ... but, let's face it, most rapists are just plain evil. Evil must be confronted and defeated. The issue is, I feel, best regarded from that viewpoint. Just my opinion.


Trav

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Response to The Traveler (Reply #81)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 02:23 AM

83. Actually, you're missing the point.

I think anyone who's been raped can testify that rape is evil, but the great heartbreak is that it isn't just "evil men" who rape. Many, many women, and men know that. It's your brother's best friend. It's your father, brother, uncle, cousin. It's your boss, your co-worker. It's your husband, boyfriend, date. All these have friends, family, co-workers, acquaintances who'd testify that these guys are great, that these guys helped them in a tight spot, that these guys are good fathers, that they can't believe these guys would do something like that.

The majority of rapes are perpetrated by someone the victim knows. The majority are not perpetrated behind bushes/in a dark parking lot/alley/park. It's perpetrated in beds and on couches, either the victim's or perpetrator's own, or the one she is put into at a party when she's drunk....and so on.

Most of these guys who rape (and it's 98% guys) do it because they see the chance, because they feel entitled to it, because they want it.

The majority of men? They don't rape. The majority of men never hold a woman down and force her. The majority of men would stop a rapist in a parking lot in a second, even at the risk of their own safety. What many of them would do if their best friend joked that he wouldn't mind "tapping that", or "she needs to be taught a lesson" or "she just hasn't been with a proper man yet, that's why she's a 'dyke'" - that's what these past few days on DU has been all about.

When you claim that rapists are just plain evil, you make them 'other', not proper men, but the sad fact is, most rapists are ordinary men, living ordinary lives, who cannot be spotted because of the horns on their foreheads and goat feet. We know they are rapists when they rape, not before.

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Response to KitSileya (Reply #83)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 02:04 PM

132. Great post. nt

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 02:11 AM

82. Very good

 

Let's start from recognizing that "male identity" is a social construct and as such open to change. And if so, so is also feminine identity.

"Masculinity" and "femininity" is dialectical codependent opposition and creative polarity, not unlike Yin and Yang. Open to exploring and experiencing both internally and in social relations.

Power relations of sexual domination cannot be separated from domination structures of social hierarchies.

Dunno if those sentences help in any way, but felt the urge to say something...

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 11:17 AM

92. Rape is the fault and responsibility of white cis gender hetrosexuals!! nt

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 11:48 AM

99. Sociopaths rape

Sociopaths excuse the rapist and blame the victim. It is NOT about male identity.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 12:20 PM

107. Thanks for posting this subject

I'm impressed.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 12:34 PM

110. kicking to read

and contribute later.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 12:56 PM

120. This is such a great post that really speaks the truth. I wish I could recommend it a million times

Thank you Ken Burch for posting this.

Both men and women are harmed by all of this stuff. We all suffer. Don't all of us want better than this for ourselves, for the young people who are coming after us when our time is done?

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 01:25 PM

125. Men are victims of anti-feminism too

They just don't know it.

As you say, men are forced into this bullshit role that they're supposed to take. Always win! Don't show emotions! That's women's work! (Even if you like it--don't do it because you're a man.)

And the sad thing is, all this anti-feminist men are too brainwashed to realize that they're victimizing themselves by living a lie.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 01:50 PM

129. Excellent post, Ken.

Everything you said is especially relevant here in Alaska where "We're number one" in sexual assaults.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 05:34 PM

141. society doesn't prize those things only in men, it prizes them *period,* in all things.

 

society doesn't change because individual people 'work on' their individual issues.

society will continue to prize bullies & winners regardless of your self-introspection, & violence will increase. it's not a matter of the 'bad ideas' of individuals, it's a matter of the pressure points of an economic organization that works to concentrate income, wealth and power in the hands of a few.

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #141)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 09:04 PM

145. Society prizes agressive women? I just peed myself!!!!

That's incredibly off base. And the qualities society prize in men and women differ greatly from culture to culture and evolve through time.
It's it static or hopeless, as you suggest.
But to assert that our current culture prizes agressive women as they do men is a complete load of horseshit. Do some research, will you?

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