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Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:37 PM

The college class on avoiding rape. Please move on, nothing to see here.

There are lots of classes on 'Defensive Driving' they are a very smart addition to the curriculum.
It's not a question of right or wrong, it's a question of recognizing situations that are dangerous and avoiding them.
It's not an outrage that sometimes people are not so dependable. It's a fact of life.

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Reply The college class on avoiding rape. Please move on, nothing to see here. (Original post)
Vox Moi Dec 2012 OP
bettyellen Dec 2012 #1
Vox Moi Dec 2012 #2
bettyellen Dec 2012 #17
CrispyQ Dec 2012 #54
Marrah_G Dec 2012 #5
bettyellen Dec 2012 #18
NYC_SKP Dec 2012 #3
Vox Moi Dec 2012 #7
Kurska Dec 2012 #68
Marrah_G Dec 2012 #4
Gore1FL Dec 2012 #12
Marrah_G Dec 2012 #13
Gore1FL Dec 2012 #38
niyad Dec 2012 #15
Gore1FL Dec 2012 #46
niyad Dec 2012 #47
Gore1FL Dec 2012 #50
niyad Dec 2012 #83
bettyellen Dec 2012 #59
Sheldon Cooper Dec 2012 #21
Gore1FL Dec 2012 #39
Sheldon Cooper Dec 2012 #41
Gore1FL Dec 2012 #44
Sheldon Cooper Dec 2012 #45
niyad Dec 2012 #48
Gore1FL Dec 2012 #51
CTyankee Dec 2012 #73
Gore1FL Dec 2012 #80
CTyankee Dec 2012 #81
Gore1FL Dec 2012 #82
CTyankee Dec 2012 #85
bettyellen Dec 2012 #56
Gore1FL Dec 2012 #60
bettyellen Dec 2012 #62
niyad Dec 2012 #49
bettyellen Dec 2012 #22
Gore1FL Dec 2012 #40
bettyellen Dec 2012 #57
Hestia Dec 2012 #32
Gore1FL Dec 2012 #43
Tsiyu Dec 2012 #33
Gore1FL Dec 2012 #42
NYC_SKP Dec 2012 #6
Vox Moi Dec 2012 #8
NYC_SKP Dec 2012 #10
Vox Moi Dec 2012 #11
bettyellen Dec 2012 #24
bettyellen Dec 2012 #25
RKP5637 Dec 2012 #9
redgreenandblue Dec 2012 #63
CTyankee Dec 2012 #76
niyad Dec 2012 #14
mythology Dec 2012 #26
DirkGently Dec 2012 #86
thucythucy Dec 2012 #16
niyad Dec 2012 #19
thucythucy Dec 2012 #23
Vox Moi Dec 2012 #31
thucythucy Dec 2012 #36
salin Dec 2012 #20
Odin2005 Dec 2012 #29
salin Dec 2012 #30
TheMadMonk Dec 2012 #27
dsc Dec 2012 #28
seabeyond Dec 2012 #71
dsc Dec 2012 #84
Tsiyu Dec 2012 #34
ElboRuum Dec 2012 #55
bettyellen Dec 2012 #58
ElboRuum Dec 2012 #61
bettyellen Dec 2012 #64
ElboRuum Dec 2012 #72
bettyellen Dec 2012 #74
ElboRuum Dec 2012 #78
bettyellen Dec 2012 #79
ElboRuum Dec 2012 #87
Tsiyu Dec 2012 #66
ElboRuum Dec 2012 #69
Tsiyu Dec 2012 #70
NYC Liberal Dec 2012 #35
thucythucy Dec 2012 #37
loyalsister Dec 2012 #52
bettyellen Dec 2012 #65
Prometheus_unbound Dec 2012 #53
bettyellen Dec 2012 #75
Eyes of the World Dec 2012 #67
naaman fletcher Dec 2012 #77

Response to Vox Moi (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:41 PM

1. it should be for both young men and women, and early in HS, the latest.

greater communication and a more solid foundation would come from knowing ALL your peers know the same "rules of the road".





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Response to bettyellen (Reply #1)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:46 PM

2. I second that ...

Even if the content of the class was only precautionary measures for females it would give men a badly needed view of the other side.

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Response to Vox Moi (Reply #2)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:06 PM

17. thinking on it both sexes need to know what the laws are in specific scenarios as well as tips on

both discouraging and preventing rape. Learning behavioral red flags and calling out -in mixed sex classes- what kinds of coercion occur that should not be tolerated would go a long way to empower girls.
Since the perps often play stupid- they couldn't do that anymore if girls knew they had the same class. It would be a lot easier for them to have an honest discussion with peers and parents about things that make them uncomfortable, and deal with it.
And middle school is much more appropriate. Heart breaking to see 30 of under 11 year olds have been raped.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #17)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 01:18 PM

54. This.

The education needs to start at the same time they are taught about reproduction.

My bad. I forgot that some schools have taken sex education out of the curriculum, haven't they?

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #1)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:54 PM

5. I think middle school would be good

To many young men and women think that if the girl gets drunk enough then she has by default consented.

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Response to Marrah_G (Reply #5)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:07 PM

18. you're right. most were saying college before- but it;s obviously way too late.

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Response to Vox Moi (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:49 PM

3. I would say to such people who think nothing of a need for radical change to "Go to Hell."

And many would agree with me.

I shouldn't have to fucking explain this motherfucking shit. For fuck sake.





.

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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #3)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:00 PM

7. Please do explain ... what radical change, specifically?

Something that is self-evident to you might need explanations to others.
Not being obtuse ... I want to know.
Was this orientation class restricted to females?
What do you recommend to correct the situation?

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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #3)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 03:21 PM

68. What an idiotic picture, we teach people how to avoid being robbed.

It isn't blaming the victim to say that there are situations where you are more or less likely to be robbed. We also try to teach people that robbing others is horrible and has real consequences.

Why is robbery any different than rape? Education can chew bubblegum and walk at the same time. We need to educated young men on what rape is why it they need not to do it and we need to educate young women on what rape is why and how they can avoid being raped.

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Response to Vox Moi (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:53 PM

4. I think you were missing the point of the picture

The point was that there are classes on how to not be a victim, but none on how not to be a perpetrator, even though studies have shown that alot of girls and boys, men and women don't fully understand where the line of consent is.

Boys ( and girls) need to be taught, they need to understand that getting someone hammered so they won't or can't say no is not okay.

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Response to Marrah_G (Reply #4)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:24 PM

12. The problem with the picture was that it set up a fight rather than a discussion

There was an valid argument to be had about rape awareness education as part of orientation. The picture suggested that as a replacement for a self-defense class. That class is still necessary. Suggesting otherwise further blurs the discussion.

IMO, real feminism would have been to present her concerns to the people who plan freshman orientation. It would have been much more effective than making a strident sign and taking a picture.

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Response to Gore1FL (Reply #12)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:49 PM

13. She was trying to raise awareness to the problem

And I think she's probably been pretty successful at doing so. I am sure we are not the only place it is being discussed.

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Response to Marrah_G (Reply #13)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 08:51 AM

38. Except that she didn't start the discussion one would assume she actually wanted to have.

unless she was trolling.

I suspect she simply torpedoed her otherwise good point.

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Response to Gore1FL (Reply #12)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:53 PM

15. the fact that it set up a fight says far more about the people who are upse with the sign than

the woman who made it. her point is valid. nowhere in any of those "awareness" or self defense classes is anybody saying "DON'T RAPE" .

sounds like the air force's new policy on sexual assault--the "wingman" system. Nothing in their report about saying "DON'T RAPE"

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Response to niyad (Reply #15)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 09:16 AM

46. I am not against the rape awareness class.

I also do not believe rape awareness classes are mutually exclusive to teaching the self-defense class that they currently teach--which is precisely what the picture suggested.



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Response to Gore1FL (Reply #46)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 11:17 AM

47. no, that picture said nothing of the kind--nowhere was there a mention of a self-defense class,

so please show where that was. an orientation class is NOT self-defense. and you are STILL not addressing the main issue., WHEN are they EVER going to stop putting the onus on the victims, and, instead, send the very clear message "DON'T RAPE, NOT NOW, NOT EVER"

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Response to niyad (Reply #47)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 12:34 PM

50. Nevermind.

Despite the fact that I largely agree with you, you don't want a discussion. You want a vitriolic argument. That's not going to happen.

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Response to Gore1FL (Reply #50)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 09:30 PM

83. really? I am simply asking you to show where these things are that you are talking about. nice try,

though.

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Response to niyad (Reply #47)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 02:06 PM

59. it's odd how many posts are angry/ dissaproving about things never said here......

there's tons of nit picky posts like this, complaining women aren;t doing anything right. Men who've barely ever considered the issue, come in with a critique, and get upset if their suggestions aren't taken with immediately gratitude or approval. Very odd.

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Response to Gore1FL (Reply #12)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:28 PM

21. "strident"?

You call that sign "strident"? Wow.

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Response to Sheldon Cooper (Reply #21)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 08:54 AM

39. It attacks rather than discusses.

I outlined it on the thread in question. He is what I said:

Ultimately, As I look on this picture and the discussion is that the picture itself is intentionally provocative in it's wording.

Here are the words:

I need feminism because
My University teaches
"How to Avoid Getting Raped" instead of

"Don't Rape"

At Freshman Orientation



It uses a non-sequitur. It uses false choice. On top of it all, it is suggests relying on the feminie movement for change is a better than simply putting together a reasonable argument to present to the department of the university.

It would be a much more powerful of a statement if it read:

At Freshman Orientation
My University teaches
"How to Avoid Getting Raped"
It should also teach
"Rape Awareness"
I am going to address this with people who plan At Freshman Orientation.
Doing this is feminism in action

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Response to Gore1FL (Reply #39)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 08:57 AM

41. 'Strident'means loud, harsh, grating and is almost always used to refer to women.

I see nothing that is loud, harsh, or grating about that sign. It's interesting that you do.

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Response to Sheldon Cooper (Reply #41)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 09:07 AM

44. I meant that it was used to pick a fight and not have a discussion.

If there is a better word for strident, I will use it as a substitute in the future.

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Response to Gore1FL (Reply #44)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 09:13 AM

45. Well, I disagree about the nature of the sign.

But I appreciate your willingness to consider another word.

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Response to Gore1FL (Reply #44)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 11:19 AM

48. how about ACCURATE?

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Response to niyad (Reply #48)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 12:35 PM

51. No. That's not the word either. n/t

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Response to Gore1FL (Reply #44)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 04:11 PM

73. can you tell us what you mean by "rape awareness"?

I'd like to know what young women on campus as freshmen should be aware of that they aren't already aware of.

Can you give us some examples of what the rape awareness class would encompass?

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Response to CTyankee (Reply #73)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 06:12 PM

80. Whatever she meant by "Don't Rape" in her sign.

I figured it would be more in depth than a person simply uttering those words.

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Response to Gore1FL (Reply #80)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 07:14 PM

81. No, I mean what YOU think rape awareness means. What subjects would be considered in

such a course? I just want specifics.

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Response to CTyankee (Reply #81)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 08:26 PM

82. Course design isnot my speciality, but if I were going to design one

I would look at the data available to determine the causes of rape and focus on the key issues where education would do the most good. If the data showed the campus I was involved in had a lot of date rape issues, I would focus more on that. If the rapes were people hiding in the shadows and beating women first, I would aim it at that.

I can only assume law enforcement experts, criminologists, psychologists,etc. have dealt with this before. I would also look at other programs in place and examine their effectiveness. Based on statements made by GOP officials, it is clear that education on this subject is necessary. Obviously communicating that rape is rape and there is no wiggle room in justifying it. Consent means "yes," not the simple absence of a "no." "No" doesn't mean "yes," either.

What would you put in such a class?








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Response to Gore1FL (Reply #82)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 11:33 PM

85. I would center it on what we know about why men rape and how societal norms have

reinforced sexist notions that women are to blame for rape (she was wearing provocative clothes, she drank too much, for example) and simply telling women they shouldn't do those things is not only sexist, it hasn't stopped rape. Your statement about consent is another area I would definitely stress.

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Response to Gore1FL (Reply #39)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 01:42 PM

56. her poster was pithier, stronger voice and more effective-

no need for her to include her plans to address this with anybody... Who puts shit like that on a poster?
What an odd suggestion. The original version was better.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #56)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 02:21 PM

60. If the point is to be pithy you and she win.

I thought the point was to affect change.

I apologize for the confusion.

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Response to Gore1FL (Reply #60)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 02:32 PM

62. i forgive you- everyone gets confused Gore1Fl.... I'm sure you meant to be helpful and had no idea

how condescending you sounded redoing a poster that was so well received here.

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Response to Sheldon Cooper (Reply #21)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 11:19 AM

49. welcome to DU

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Response to Gore1FL (Reply #12)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:28 PM

22. no, it set up a men's pity party and multiple attempts at thread jacking

and attacks at activists, by men telling them they are doing it all wrong- plus it's pointless anyway.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #22)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 08:57 AM

40. This would be an example pof what I was talking about.

You went into attack mode. Based on your post, I can only assume you have no desire to have a discussion, but instead prefer to accuse people of "Thread Jacking," "attacking."

How is this helpful in advancing the discussion?



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Response to Gore1FL (Reply #40)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 01:44 PM

57. I relayed the truth of what happened on that thread. Why would you object?

That's not an attack, that thread WAS attacked.

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Response to Gore1FL (Reply #12)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 01:50 AM

32. The college my niece attends did do this for the young women and it counts as a credit

It is a two-semester course on Self-Defense. Some colleges are paying attention.

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Response to Hestia (Reply #32)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 09:04 AM

43. I think the rape awareness class is a good idea too. n/t

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Response to Gore1FL (Reply #12)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 02:42 AM

33. Did it offend your delicate sensibilities?



I think it spells out the TRUTH about how we deal with rape in our culture.
We try to lay the burden completely on women, and then try to silence them if they don't cry out against the HORRIFIC, TRAUMATIC, PAINFUL and DANGEROUS crime of rape in a manner that doesn't "offend anybody."


Gawd, I just can't get over the way people try to put women in rigid little lock boxes

" you must do it THIS way or else I will stick my fingers in my ears and cover my eyes. Get back to me when I approve of the way you presented your outrage little Missy!" and then they wonder why we get fed the FUCK up.

And I am FED THE FUCK up with this ignorant shit that does anything but speak to the crime of rape.

It's ALWAYS about attacking and criticizing the woman. Fucking ALWAYS!




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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #33)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 09:03 AM

42. This is my point exactly.

You had a potentially awesome thread I saw earlier (rape vs smoking) where you provided stats and links and a great ground work for the discussion. Then you finished the OP in bold sarcasm that derailed your own otherwise good thread.

I didn't bother to post on it because the discussion wasn't the enlightening data, but rather the fight you picked.

The same problem is happening on this thread. When your desire is to have a conversation, I will be happy to participate. I am not inclined or obligated to participate in unneccesary arguments when discussions will do fine.

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Response to Vox Moi (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:59 PM

6. So, should there also be "how to avoid being beaten up for your effeminate behavior" classes?

You should rethink and then self delete this crap OP.

Fact of life my fucking ass.

...

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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #6)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:05 PM

8. Here's a class: 'Dangerous Situations that we don't cover because we don't think they should exist.'

What would you do to improve the situation?

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Response to Vox Moi (Reply #8)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:09 PM

10. I would have motherfucking zero tolerance for any assault based on sex, gender, or orientation.

I'd probably also ban drugs and alcohol on campus and ask attendees to sign agreements.

I don't think sensitivity classes work for assholes, so I'm not advocating required classes.

And the poster doesn't advocate for that either.

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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #10)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:13 PM

11. Let's make that any assault at all ... and thanks.

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Response to Vox Moi (Reply #11)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:01 PM

24. thanks, but hate crimes and sex crimes are special status for a reason.....

college men pick too many fist fights with their peers while drinking. they'd have to build an on campus jail to deal with it all.
Let's get back OT, thanks.

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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #10)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:05 PM

25. i think peer group sensitivity classes work for kids though... and we sorely need to set higher

standards of behavior towards all peers- and enforce them - early on.
Schools are not safe for kids, and relying on individual kid's parents to guide them is not working. Hell, they learn a lot f this shitty behaviour at home.

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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #6)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:06 PM

9. K&R !!! n/t

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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #6)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 02:37 PM

63. I took one of those.

It was called "Kyokushin Karate".

It did in fact help me avoid getting beat up for my effeminate behavior once or twice.

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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #6)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 04:42 PM

76. I think we should give the poster a chance to describe what he/she means by rape

"awareness." I asked for that here in this thread but haven't heard back yet. Wait and see what is llisted as "awareness." Then we'll have a chance to examine what exactly is being discussed. We can't really know what is meant until we see the words.

So hopefully I'll get a response soon and we can take a look...

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Response to Vox Moi (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:50 PM

14. you missed the point of the sign, apparently. "avoiding dangersous situations"?? sounds a bit

like blaming the victim for being in a dangerous situation. and what about the home invasion rapist--you know, the one who breaks into your home, while you are sleeping? how do we overcome THAT dangerous situation.

how hard is it to say "DON"T RAPE, NOT NOW, NOT EVER"

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Response to niyad (Reply #14)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:32 PM

26. Do you lock the door to your home?

Do you wear your seat belt when you drive? Nobody should be robbed or have a car accident, but they happen. It's not blaming the victim to say that there is a benefit to being aware of surroundings.

Obviously nobody should rape, or rob or commit whatever other crime against another. And being aware won't eliminate the risk, but it can help lower it. Sure you can come up with any situation, where being prepared isn't a foolproof measure.

But you can just as easily think of situations where it would help. For example, when you're going to go on vacation you should probably stop the newspaper and arrange for somebody to pick up your mail. Sure nobody should break into your house, but there's no sense sending out an obvious announcement that you aren't home.

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Response to niyad (Reply #14)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 11:51 PM

86. But rape prevention instruction DOESN'T blame the victim.


Why is it so important to pretend that it does? It's also not true that we don't make it clear that rape is unacceptable. We have a cultural problem with sexual assault, but the problem is not that we offer college students instruction on avoiding rapists.

This is a just dumb meme, period. It doesn't track logically. Rape prevention from a crime-prevention perspective is not a symptom of failing to address the attackers who are at fault.

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Response to Vox Moi (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:53 PM

16. You lost me on the last line:

"It's not an outrage that sometimes people are not so dependable. It's a fact of life."

Really, it's not an outrage that some people rape other people? Did you honestly mean to imply that? That rapists aren't commiting outrages, but are simply "not so dependable?" If not, you better clarify or edit your OP, because on the face of it you sound very much like you're trivializing a very important and painful topic.

You never answered the question posted elsewhere on this thread about gay bashing. Should gay students be taught how to act "less gay" so as to avoid situations where they might be gay bashed? Or should the campus administration declare that homophobia will not be tolerated, and gay bashing will be punished to the fullest extent of the law?

Personally, I think ALL students should be offered a course in how to keep themselves safe, in any and all situations.

But I also think that education about rape and sexual violence needs to move way way beyond simply telling women how to modify their behavior so as not to be raped.

I hope you agree (and I hope you ditch the inference that rape is not an outrage).



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Response to thucythucy (Reply #16)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:10 PM

19. don't forget the sentence above that "it isn't a question of right or wrong".

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Response to niyad (Reply #19)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:41 PM

23. That too.

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Response to thucythucy (Reply #16)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 01:31 AM

31. You are looking for enemies where there are none.

The fact that people do outrageous things, including rape, is not itself an outrage. It's deplorable but it's part of what we are.
Homo Sapiens can be very dangerous animals. People murder, rob, rape and torture each other to death in large numbers. They've been doing so for quite some time now. We are imperfect and the consequences cannot be erased at will by simply saying 'it's wrong'. Is it an outrage that humans are the way they are? What were you expecting?

We do pretty well, I guess, mitigating these tendencies through law and appeals to morality and logic but there are always those times and places when human company may not be so safe. there is no perfect society.

Would you really want me to withhold information about those imperfections that might save you from harm just because you think that the threat is undeserved?

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Response to Vox Moi (Reply #31)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 08:36 AM

36. I have no idea what you think you're trying to do.

So, rape is one of those "outrageous things" that people do, but it's not an outrage?

"Would you want me to withhold information..." Straw man. See my post. Never said anything of the sort. Neither did I (or anyone else on this thread) say that all the "consequences of rape" will "be erased" simply by "declaring it wrong." Another straw man.

"We do pretty well, I guess, mitigating those tendencies through law and appeals..."

In the case of rape, you guess wrong, as is amply demonstrated here.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021913276

In the context of these facts and statistics, and the lived experience of so many people here on DU and out in the real world, your whole OP drips condescension. "Please move on, nothing to see here..." and all the rest of it.

So rape isn't in and of itself an outrage. Right there you demonstrate why it is so many men need to be more educated around this topic.

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Response to Vox Moi (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:23 PM

20. It wouldn't and didn't prevent me from being raped.

If it helps others from not being raped, good. For my situation the prevention would have been: don't allow any friend, who you believe you know and trust well, into your living space if another person isn't present. In other words: live a paranoid life.

I had the self-defense training. It just wasn't effective when I was 100 pounds lighter and a foot shorter, and I didn't recognize the threat until I was physically being drug through the apt., and then having my arms physically pinned down, and my body pinned to the ground.

But, forgive me for changing the tone, I guess being a rape survivor, and knowing that in the decades since it happened that there are millions more, is just a fact of life.

Oddly enough, since the rape, I have taken on a career that puts me in dangerous communities, so yes, I know how to be aware of my surroundings and conditions. But none of that would have prevented my rape. Nor will it prevent a multitude of other rapes. But heck, if we keep the "its just a fact of life" attitude societally, we can keep believing that it is the victims fault, and we just don't have to be inconvenienced into thinking about such an unpleasant issue.

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Response to salin (Reply #20)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:45 PM

29. It especially doesn't work if the woman is physically handicapped...

...like my friend (the result of brain damage from being shaken as a toddler, her handicap is akin to Cerebral Palsy minus the spasms), who was raped by a friend of her BF in her BF's apartment.

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #29)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 12:13 AM

30. Point well taken.

How horrific for your friend. *tears*

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Response to Vox Moi (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:40 PM

27. It is also the method which gets the better overall outcome. /nt

 

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Response to Vox Moi (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:43 PM

28. frankly I think that a class on avoiding being a victim of crime would make sense

Most of the tips one would give for avoiding being attacked or robbed would also be applicable to avoiding rape. Don't leave your drink unattended at a party, don't leave alone at the end of the night, don't pass out at a party, walk in well lit areas, etc. I also think that a class for both genders on what and what doesn't constitute rape would be sensible. Like it or not, there will always be criminals. Some people are just plain evil and no amount of education, cultural norms, or work will change that. Thus vigilance will always be necessary.

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Response to dsc (Reply #28)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 03:51 PM

71. cross the street... right. and we are being attacked in another thread for crossing the street

cause it hurts mens feeling.

i am seeing men say women need to take a class and not address the boys to not rape (or what rape is). and yet, contradict stuff taught in the class like, all men are POTENTIAL (stranger so we do not know them, ergo do not know nice guy) rapist. yet again, another very contentious part of this class we are being told to attend.

it is intersting

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #71)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 11:31 PM

84. I guess you forgot to read the class for both genders part

I mean you wouldn't just make shit up about what I said.

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Response to Vox Moi (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 02:55 AM

34. There also need to be classes for men on HOW NOT TO RAPE

There are more than a few men who never got those lessons at home, and colleges and universities and our military need to get with 2012

Here's what I don't get:

On the one hand some guys are saying "men are responsible creatures" and then on the other hand, they claim that men are too ignorant to learn from a rape awareness class.

So which is it?

Are men incapable of controlling themselves, or can we teach them ways they can be more responsible partners and friends?

Are they wild slaves of their hormones with no chance of stopping themselves from rape if they feel like it, or can we possibly teach college men to acknowledge date rape, to look out for it, to help protect their fellow students?


Which is it?

And what is wrong with saying "Don't Rape?" Is that too offensive for college men?






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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #34)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 01:36 PM

55. No, see, here is where you are missing it, I think.

I've been watching these threads with some interest, and finding myself puzzled with what is actually being argued about. Student safety should be something that should be discussed during orientation, so really, what's the issue here. I think I see the disconnect, finally.

I think the contention of all of this is that some people felt that a "how to avoid rape" portion of orientation is, in and of itself, a sensible thing. So would a "how to avoid the theft of your personal property", "how to avoid a physical attack", etc. However, the picture seemed to convey the message that her safety wasn't her specific responsibility, that the offense exists in that there was a suggestion in having a "how to avoid rape" portion of orientation indicates that somehow the university is prepared to accept rape as a part of campus life.

I think that's what started this whole fracas.

The problem with all of this is, those who say that her registering offense at having the "how to avoid rape" education rather than having the boys take a "Don't Rape" course have a point insofar as misdirected anger. The reason for that is singular.

That reason is that rape is a crime.

And that's where the disconnect is occurring.

The problem is that a rape awareness class conveys no information meaningfully, anymore than a "Don't Steal" class would. We fully expect people to know that theft is a crime, and we certainly wouldn't expect to have to tell a group of incoming freshmen not to steal things under the guise of a "theft awareness" class. People who are not thieves won't steal, and those who are will. A class would therefore be completely useless, conveying no information and having no effect on the amount of campus theft that occurs.

People who don't rape won't rape under any circumstance. They don't need the class. Rapists are fully aware of their criminal behavior and aren't given to caring about their victims. They are a waste of the class.

Of course people can control themselves, and "hormones" aren't nearly the coercive force that some people imagine them to be. That prefrontal cortex can put the kybosh on any undesirable primitive behavior no matter how strong, and a good thing too, otherwise we wouldn't have civilization.

Criminals just don't care to control themselves and care little for or believe that they won't be held accountable for the consequence. Criminals don't care that they hurt, and don't care to be responsible partners and friends.

This is the disconnect. Men aren't remedials. Rape has nothing to do with some mystical "uncontrollable impulse". All men know that rape is a crime. A criminal (rapist) just doesn't care. You aren't going to reduce rape by trying to educate a rapist any more than you are going to reduce murder by educating murderers or reduce theft by educating thieves.

The picture is, to some, a head shaker because of what I've presented here. It shows on the part of the subject a lack of understanding of the cause and effect of the situation. She actually got the best possible outcome by having the "how to avoid rape" tips during orientation.

Whether we choose to accept it or not, crime, not just rape, but all forms of crime, will always be a part of the human experience. The best we CAN do as a society at large is prosecute those who break the law after the fact, and forearm ourselves against becoming victims of said crimes before the fact.

Hope this does a little to clarify things, because quite honestly the amount of vitriolic disagreement and emotional invective with regard to this one picture is quite confounding.

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Response to ElboRuum (Reply #55)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 02:00 PM

58. What is your area of expertise on this that you feel qualified to come "clarify for us"? experts

disagree with you.

Im not going to go into details, but just point out to you that most men's contributions to this thread have been from men who've done no research or reading on the subject, telling women how they are "doing it wrong".

Many were nice, like yours, many were very nasty too. But all feature men, largely brushing concerns aside and telling us to do little to nothing new- like you do. What is your area of expertise on this that you feel qualified to come "clarify for us"?

Men telling us in detail how to express ourselves, or else they say they'll feel free to ignore us because we;re "too strident" ....and thinking this is like helpful?!?! Please read some of this crap and rethink your role in this- we need support not critiques from someone acting superior.

The mind boggles.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #58)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 02:28 PM

61. Why so tense?

I've rarely had any of my posts misconstrued this badly. I usually try to be clear, however, perhaps I wasn't. I'll attempt further clarification.

Firstly, I am not claiming to tell anyone how to express themselves. Nor am I claiming to be superior.

Secondly, I don't think I require any specific "expertise" to comment on what I perceive to be as a disconnect between those actively arguing this point. My clarification was to Tsiyu who seems to be a bit boggled as to what people were not "getting" in this exchange.

And which "experts" disagree with me that people on message boards often misunderstand each other, leading to arguments? I wasn't even aware there were experts on this phenomenon.

We are arguing about nothing here. It is precisely correct to educate students entering college on how to be safe in their new environment and would be expected regardless of the crimes in question. That should be offensive to no one. That it is to some is where the mind boggles.

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Response to ElboRuum (Reply #61)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 02:43 PM

64. wow, calm down dude, LOL. So, you admittedly have NO expertise and yet you shot down

the idea of any education towards men - basically shitting on Tsiyu's post - saying nothing can be done because....
Just a guess off the top of your head, all rapists are irredeemable and nothing can be done culturally to improve things.
You feel empowered to lecture her with your "knowledge" that's based basically on your gut, correct? And you;re not the only one.

And not sure where you go the idea, student safety orientation is NOT a controversy, never was. The fact that it is the ONLY program the school offers is. Before you comment any further you could read up on that, because right now you're flying by the seat of your pants, and so are a dozen other guys, and it;s boring since they are all presenting no more than the same "gut" feelings.


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Response to bettyellen (Reply #64)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 03:58 PM

72. Calm down?

I wasn't aware that I was getting upset. Thanks for the heads-up, I suppose.

I didn't shit on Tsiyu's post. I questioned it and offered some clarity towards the other side of the argument. Big difference. If having discussion about and shitting on have somehow come to mean one and the same thing, I must admit that I missed that particular memorandum. I have as much expertise in discussing issues as you or anyone else here. If a lack of "expertise" were a disqualifying factor in participating in conversations on DU, then DU would go from vibrant message board to abandoned web site in short step. Most people here have opinions which reflect their own personal experiences and exposure to various sources of information, and I don't really have a problem with them sharing them regardless if they have twin PhDs in Bilateral Cromulence and Ectoplasmic Marketecture or not.

Nevertheless appreciating your defense of Tsiyu, unnecessary though it was since I was not attacking, she was kind enough to respond to my post with what I perceived as a measure commensurate with the spirit of civil discourse below. Feel free to peruse that at your leisure, as I think it may illustrate what my original post was trying to accomplish, to whit, discover and if possible address the disconnect between those supporting the statement in that infamous picture and those finding issue with that statement.

I'm not going to further attempt to justify my right to participate in conversations about topics of interest to me here on DU. If the mere fact of my participation bothers you in any way, expressing this displeasure to me is not likely to result in resolution of any sort satisfactory to you. I vehemently assert my right of participation, whether you recognize and respect it as such is your prerogative but your choice in that matter does not diminish that right in any way.

Be well.

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Response to ElboRuum (Reply #72)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 04:32 PM

74. Calm down-you seem really agitated.

See- you don;t like it either!

It's nice to know you learned something from this thread- your insulting demeanor and this emphatic statement:

"You aren't going to reduce rape by trying to educate a rapist any more than you are going to reduce murder by educating murderers or reduce theft by educating thieves. "


Made me believe you were a lost cause. If you hadn't included demeaning analysis of my temperament as you did, I wouldn't have written you off so easily. But you talked down to me, and I wasn't about to treat you with respect you did not earn by insulting me like that. You get what you give.

It's terrific you could be disabused of this notion. Too many guys here actually think this means we want to send every man to reeducation camp. Where these paranoid fantasies come from is beyond me. #1 paranoid fantasy- we think every man is a rapist or rape enabler, and we need to apologize for this. Crazy shit- not even worth addressing again..but this is what's passing for critical thinking around here.











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Response to bettyellen (Reply #74)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 05:27 PM

78. bettyellen...

I've tried to engage you in conversation twice now and somehow you've managed to read some sort of excitable emotional response in each encounter. I assure you that no such emotion exists.

My statement still applies if the criminal is aware that his behavior is criminal and engages in it with malice aforethought. Criminals willfully engage in their behaviors even in the face of consequence and damage to others. However, as per my conversation with Tsiyu, the picture becomes less clear when, as I am under the increasing suspicion, our educational system is failing at the secondary level to properly educate young people on rape and its direct consequence. It is quite another thing to say you can educate someone who has not yet been or has been poorly educated in something. My statement was made from a presumption that this education was happening effectively at this level (as it had for people of my age cohort and before) where that may no longer be the case.

No man on this board thinks that feminists want to send him to a re-education camp. They support women's issues, they may self-identify as feminists of whatever stripe they may wear, but they are obviously going to have their own personal concerns they may want to address. And there is precisely nothing wrong with that.

They were responding to an inartful implication of the statement made in the "famous picture", and from what I saw, the concern was to address this implication, not to throw water on the main message. Your mileage may vary. Really don't feel that further discussion of that will lead to any more uncharted ground being covered.

Look, no hard feelings. I've been on this board long enough to know that with certain topics tempers can flare and emotions can run high, which is why I choose to approach those topics from more of a rationalist standpoint. I feel there is more room for discussion and less opportunity for flameouts if I disconnect my emotion chip for these.

Have a good one.

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Response to ElboRuum (Reply #78)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 05:52 PM

79. I wasn't any more excitable than you, seriously....

but you chose to do the "calm down little lady" thing. You didn't even realize I was throwing it back at you? Ooops. I thought it was pretty funny. Now that you see it bothers you, maybe you'll think twice about that patronizing attitude if you'd like to have respectful discourse. Just saying, you were totally projecting on that one. I was told yesterday I was angry and mean because I don't give a shit about someones feelings. Let me tell you, I don't have to be one bit angry not to care about someone I don;t know, who's peddling nonsense.

You've missed a lot of crazy posts from men- including fear of civil rights infringement because we supposedly want to force education on every man. And hundred of posts saying we are claiming we're saying all men are rapists and we're stereotyping them and this is sooooo much more important than the conversation we're attempting to have. You may have missed it, but it's there.

A lot of men want to steer the conversation to be all about their paranoid fears and hurt feelings. They litter every thread with nonsense. You may not care, but there is something very wrong with that if it's your conversation being thread jacked again and again . And I think the phenomenon of these men;s resistance- as ugly as it is- can tell us something about our culture.
Just food for thought.







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Response to bettyellen (Reply #79)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 06:43 PM

87. I will accept any critique...

...of my posting style, the words I use, et al.

...provided that critique holds water.

However, I did not do the "calm down little lady" thing. If you think disagreement with or questioning of a post is somehow attacking, or responding to a grotesque overreaction on your part patronizing, well I just don't know what to tell you. You completely missed the point to my post to Tsiyu, attacked me, and rather than attack back in kind and I was attempting to clarify that for you. Since then you've seen fit to throw in the "see how you like it" crap twice now, when it was completely unnecessary the first time because I was patronizing neither Tsiyu or you.

You don't seem to want to let this subthread die on a good note, since you seem to like respond to each of my "well, that's it for now" posts with a bit more unnecessary criticism. Fine. I've tried to get an understanding and maintain the quality of the conversation. I've done the due diligence, for what little good it has served, and wasted far too much time responding to a person whose basic reading comprehension seems to be on strike.

Have a good day.

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Response to ElboRuum (Reply #55)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 03:07 PM

66. You are wrong in a very profound way

The fact is, many young men DO NOT think that rape is wrong. The surveys - some in my OP - show that many young men have very misguided ideas about rape and when it is "okay."

It is clear that it is up to us as a society to pick up the slack that bad or absent parenting dropped. Educating men IS key here. Not only to help them identify those "murky" areas that society has enabled, but to encourage and teach them about the prevalence of date rape, how to protect the women and men they know, how to identify male students who may be rapists, how to report rape, how to respond to demeaning, violent talk and behaviors toward women.

To act like young men are a "lost cause" and not worth educating means one thinks young men are so stupid they can't be enlightened, or that they already know everything.

With rape at epidemic levels in colleges, universities and the m ilitary, I would say that whatever knowledge men have is NOT enough to keep rape from being a growing scourge.

You attack a disease with everything you've got.

Educate the women AND the men.

How this frightens men I do not know, but one would think any DECENT man would have no problem fighting the epidemic of rape with everything at our disposal.

Why are classes for men such a frightening concept to some guys? I don't get it. I suppose ignorance really is bliss, but not for the victims of rape.

Sad

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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #66)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 03:37 PM

69. I am willing to accept the idea that I am wrong.

And to take to your first point, you state that "many young men DO NOT think that rape is wrong". However, when you say that they have very misguided ideas about rape and when it is okay, then that indicates to me not so much that they don't think that rape is wrong, but are unaware of what constitutes rape. If this is a challenge to be overcome then I am in full agreement that we should ABSOLUTELY be doing a better job of making people understand that there are no exceptions to the rule that states "If there is no consent, and sex happened, it is rape."

However, I can say that in my time in school, and this was back in the 80s, a very clear definition of what rape is was a part of the general health curriculum. Moreover, such curricula seemed to be prevalent, because as I entered college in the late 80s, you didn't have to explain to men what rape was. However, if this is what kids going into college today are evincing as their "knowledge" of rape, then I think a good case can be made to suggest that modern curricula in this regard are failing quite miserably.

I think I know why it is "frightening". I quote that as such, because I think that's a misconstruation of "insulting", which I think is a better read of the emotion you are encountering. And that's just it. It WOULD be insulting to someone who DID have an actual, effective life skills/drug awareness/sex education program as part of their precollegiate curriculum, something we USED to have in this country before abstinence-ed and chastity pledging started taking the place of it in our schools. Given the demographics of DU, I would expect that most, if not all, men on DU were fortunate enough to have gotten through the educational system of this country before this sort of ass-backwards experimentation with that curricula started happening.

Don't get me wrong, if this truly IS the state of secondary education in this country such that a freshman in college can't supply a definition of rape commensurate with its legal gravity and understanding that it is utterly reprehensible, then YES you are correct that this education is precisely necessary.

However, I do think that such a thing might be beyond the resource capabilities of freshmen orientation, since these are generally volunteer programs handled by upperclassmen, unless that has also changed since I was in school. Might need to be a full semester course, or at least a mandatory seminar.

I appreciate your response greatly.

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Response to ElboRuum (Reply #69)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 03:42 PM

70. Thank you. You just made my day



Think about this: the cost of one rape victim's lawsuit against a university would cover the cost of any rape prevention classes aimed at men.

Thanks again for helping us work through this topic.

It's a sludge through a lot of pain, fear, misinformation and misogyny, but it's the ugly journey we must all take to eradicate rape in our culture.

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Response to Vox Moi (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 03:01 AM

35. Which do we hear more often: "don't drink and drive" or "avoid drunk drivers"?

Which do we hear more often: "don't rape" or "avoid getting raped"?

Think about it.

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Response to NYC Liberal (Reply #35)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 08:43 AM

37. Excellent point!

I'll be quoting this elsewhere. Thank you so much for stating the issue so well.

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Response to NYC Liberal (Reply #35)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 12:43 PM

52. common sense tips

taking keys away and not getting in the car with someone who has been drinking are pretty well understood principles. They are rules people affected have passed around so thoroughly that it is pretty common practice.

And, perpetrators (at least in my area) go to driving school school. And get checked out for potential alcoholism.
I think the frequent campaigns against drunk driving along with cautionary tales what we see are pretty good social schooling for both with the most emphasis on the perpetrator is appropriate for that offense

Unlike drunk driver, when it comes to rape it is most often impossible to identify a rapist ahead of time.
There are some rules about rape prevention that have been passed around. At the same time, some women whose experience with men has been limited to male family members, teachers and others who have only had positive influence, may benefit from a class on avoidance. BUT these women are very very rare, and learning from other women, as the sign indicates, has much more value.

I believe without a doubt young men could benefit significantly from a class that focuses on what rape is, as well as some facts about women and dating that their boys club doesn't teach.

After all, we do have driver's Ed....

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Response to NYC Liberal (Reply #35)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 02:47 PM

65. good point- and most stats say people do NOT understand the law, it needs to be clarified in detail

people shld be put on notice that boys and girls both got the same info on what should not happen.

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Response to Vox Moi (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 12:58 PM

53. Do it

As long as they explain that the dangers to be avoided are male relatives, friends, husbands, boyfriends and dates. That is the kind of people that can rape you. Being raped by strangers is not nearly as common.

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Response to Prometheus_unbound (Reply #53)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 04:41 PM

75. This is an important part of it, yes.

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Response to Vox Moi (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 03:12 PM

67. How about this?

 

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Response to Vox Moi (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 04:47 PM

77. Stop talking reason

 

There is a witch hunt going on here!

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