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Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:23 PM

Rape more Common than Smoking in the US



http://www.significancemagazine.org/details/webexclusive/1424839/Rape-more-common-than-smoking-in-the-US.html


( emphasis mine )


The United States is experiencing an epidemic of sexual violence. New findings from the National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey (NISVS), a study launched by the Center for Disease Control and Prevention in 2010, report that nearly 1 in 5 women are estimated to have been the victims of rape, defined as unwanted completed or attempted sexual penetration, including victims who did not have the capacity to give consent (owing to intoxication, for example). In almost all cases, the perpetrator was someone the victim knew (91.9%) and more than half of the time was their own partner. Young adulthood was the period of highest risk for first sexual victimization. For 80% of female victims, first rape occurred before age 25; for 42%, before age 18.

Although the lifetime prevalence of stalking was surprisingly less than the prevalence of non-consensual sexual contact, incidence estimates for the past year suggest that this trend could be changing as new communication technologies introduce new opportunities for sexual harassment. In 2010, the study estimates that 1.27 million American woman were raped--equivalent to one woman every 29 seconds--and 5.1 million were stalked--equivalent to one woman every 7 seconds.

These are a few of the key findings from the first annual report of what will be an ongoing, nationally representative survey of sexual violence in the US. The NISVS will be a great resource to public health researchers. Using the data collected by the NISVS, investigators will be able to monitor national and state-specific trends in the prevalence of sexual violence and stalking for the first time, to characterize the type of individuals who are at the highest risk of being a victim or a perpetrator of a sexual crime (whether physical or psychological), and to investigate the health consequences of sexual victimization.



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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/roshanak-taghavi/the-invisible-war-documentary_b_1665183.html

Rape on U.S. Military Bases Left Unchecked, Documentary Reveals



"We've had discussions with extremely high-ranking members of the military who actually thanked us for showing them the film because it offered a perspective they hadn't had before," said Mr. Dick. "Before this film, I don't think people understood the systemic nature of rape in the military and the systemic nature of reprisals against those who report it."

In 2010 alone, the military experienced a staggering 19,000 sex crimes. According to Department of Defense statistics, more than one-fifth of all active-duty female soldiers have been sexually assaulted, leaving women who have been raped in the military with a higher rate of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) than that of men in combat.

"For a (sexual) predator," says Brigadier General Loree Sutton, a psychiatrist with the U.S. Army, a relatively closed system like the military is "a prime target-rich environment."

Today, the occurrence of sexual assault in the U.S. military is almost double that of American civilians. These figures are not limited to women. According to the Service Women's Action Network, 46 percent of the roughly 108,000 veterans who experienced Military Sexual Trauma (MST) in 2010 were men. In The Invisible War, Mr. Dick and Ms. Ziering document some of their stories




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http://www.911rape.org/facts-quotes/statistics


Statistics




In a study conducted by the Department of Justice and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, researchers interviewed 8,000 women and 8,000 men. Using a definition of rape that includes forced vaginal, oral, and anal intercourse, the survey found that 1 in 6 women had experienced an attempted rape or a completed rape.


At the time they were raped:

22% were under the age of twelve
54% were under the age of eighteen
83% were under the age of twenty-five

In the same study, 1 in 33 men had experienced a sexual assault.


Prevalence, Incidence, and Consequences of Violence Against Women, U.S. Department of Justice, 1998



In the Rape in America study, 60% of the women who reported being raped were under 18 years old:

29.3% were less than 11 years old
32.3% were between 11 and 17
22.2% were between 18 and 24
7.1% were between 25 and 29
6.1% were older than 29
3.0% age was not available


Rape in America: A Report to the Nation, National Victim Center, 1992



Youths 12-17 are two to three times more likely to be sexually assaulted than adults.


National Crime Victimization Survey, 2000



Acquaintance rape is much more prevalent than stranger rape. In a study published by the Department of Justice, 82% of the victims were raped by someone they knew (acquaintance/friend, intimate, relative) and 18% were raped by a stranger.


From a report on Violence Against Women based on data from the National Crime Victimization Survey, Bureau of Justice Statistics, 1995



In the Rape in America study, 80% of the girls and women who were raped were victimized by someone they knew.


Rape in America: A Report to the Nation, National Victim Center, 1992



In the United States, a rape is reported about once every five minutes.


FBI Uniform Crime Report, 2000



Rape is called "the most underreported violent crime in America." In a large national survey of American women, only 16% of the rapes (approximately one out of every six) had ever been reported to the police.


Rape in America: A Report to the Nation, National Victim Center, 1992



Many surveys have been conducted to determine the prevalence and incidence of rape and sexual assault. The differences in findings across these various surveys are related to how rape and sexual assault are defined, characteristics of the sample selected for the study, screening questions, interviewer training and techniques, and other methodological and procedural issues. However, in virtually every victimization survey conducted, the number of unreported rapes and sexual assaults far exceeds those that are reported to authorities

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http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/rpe/index.html

Rape Prevention and Education (RPE) Program

Background of the Program

Sexual violence is a significant public health problem in the United States (U.S.). According to CDC’s National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey, nearly 1 in 5 women and 1 in 71 men in the United States have been raped at some time in their lives. Additional information on sexual violence is available on-line.

Sexual violence, including rape, is preventable. Recognizing this, Congress passed the Violence Against Women Act in 1994. This landmark legislation established the Rape Prevention and Education (RPE) program at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). The goal of the RPE program is to strengthen sexual violence prevention efforts. It operates in all 50 states, the District of Columbia, Puerto Rico, and six U.S. territories

Program Concepts

Primary prevention is the cornerstone of the RPE program. Program activities are guided by a set of prevention principles that include:
•Preventing first-time perpetration and victimization;
•Reducing modifiable risk factors while enhancing protective factors associated with sexual violence perpetration and victimization;
•Using the best available evidence when planning, implementing, and evaluating prevention programs;
•Incorporating behavior and social change theories into prevention programs;
•Using population-based surveillance to inform program decisions and monitor trends; and
•Evaluating prevention efforts and using the results to improve future program plans.

Prevention requires understanding the circumstances and factors that influence violence. CDC uses a four-level, social ecological model to better explain sexual violence and potential strategies for prevention. This model considers the complex interplay between individual, relationship, community, and societal factors, and allows us to address risk and protective factors from multiple domains



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http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/offenses/violent_crime/forcible_rape.html

Overview
■In 2009, the number of forcible rapes was estimated at 88,097. By comparison, the estimated volume of rapes for 2009 was 2.6 percent lower than the 2008 estimate, 6.6 percent lower than the 2005 number, and 2.3 percent below the 2000 level. (See Tables 1 and 1A.)
■The rate of forcible rapes in 2009 was estimated at 56.6 per 100,000 female inhabitants, a 3.4 percent decrease when compared with the 2008 estimated rate of 58.6.
■Rapes by force comprised 93.0 percent of reported rape offenses in 2009, and attempts or assaults to commit rape accounted for 7.0 percent of reported rapes. (Based on Table 19.)

Expanded forcible rape data

Expanded offense data are the details of the various offenses that the UCR Program collects beyond the count of how many crimes law enforcement agencies report. These details may include the type of weapon used in a crime, type or value of items stolen, and so forth. In addition, expanded data include trends (for example, 2-year comparisons) and rates per 100,000 inhabitants


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http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/context-and-variation/2012/08/20/here-is-some-legitimate-science-on-pregnancy-and-rape/

Here is Some Legitimate Science on Pregnancy and Rape

I don’t like writing about rape. I didn’t like turning my Laser Beam Eyes of Ladybusiness Justice on my Twitter feed today, which was a constant stream of information, reaction to, and anger about Akin and his baseless, stupid comments. Rape reminds me of the ways in which I am powerless, simply by being female. It doesn’t matter how many contact sports I play or muscles I build. It doesn’t matter how big my husband is. Sometimes I look at my life, and see what I’ve built, and how I’ve tried to protect myself. And I wonder what measures other women have taken for the same reasons, measures that ultimately mean little in the face of cultural conditioning to make men happy, of sexual dimorphism in musculature, of a powerful rape culture.

Some legitimate context

Unfortunately, it is rather normal to be a survivor of sexual assault if you are female. One out of six women in the United States have been the victim of rape or attempted rape, and that is using a rather tight definition that does not include many kinds of assault victims can experience. 64,080 women were raped in the US between 2004-2005. Sixty four thousand and eighty. That’s tens of thousands, not just thousands. In one sample of college-aged men, one in sixteen men admitted to raping women they either knew were too intoxicated to give consent, or they used physical force. Among these men who readily admitted to rape but had never been arrested or convicted, they committed an average of six rapes each and proudly described their sexual exploits to the interviewer (Lisak and Miller 2002).

Think of all the illnesses and conditions that make the news regularly. Take gluten intolerance, for example. The incidence for gluten intolerance is somewhere around 1% (more or less, depending on how you define it). Think on how many people you know are gluten intolerant. You know at least one, don’t you?

Now think of the women who have been raped compared to this number – about 17%. There are so many more of us out there who have been affected by sexual assault, unwanted sexual touching, sexual violence, rape and abuse that the number is likely greater than this. And though I display my gluten intolerance every time I ask an annoying, pointed question about a menu item at a restaurant, other ways I and other women identify are not exactly the subject of normal conversation.



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http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-500690_162-5590118.html

Exclusive: Rape in America: Justice Denied

Valerie said she realized she was raped. Reporting it the next day - a classic charge of acquaintance rape. Nearly three years later still no arrest in the case.

"I feel like, I almost fee like they're calling me a liar. That they don't believe me," Valerie said.

Rape in this country is surprisingly easy to get away with. The arrest rate last year was just 25 percent - a fraction of the rate for murder - 79 percent, and aggravated assault - 51 percent.

"When we have talked to victims, they very much so doubt that it was worth it for them to go to the police," said Sarah Tofte, US Program Researcher for Human Rights Watch. "They're incredibly disillusioned with the criminal justice system, and that sends a terrible message."


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http://healthland.time.com/2011/12/15/rape-and-violence-u-s-survey-finds-much-higher-rates-than-thought/

Rape and Violence: U.S. Survey Finds Much Higher Rates Than Thought

By Meredith Melnick


Every minute, 24 Americans suffer sexual or intimate-partner violence, according to an eye-opening new report from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). That adds up to 12 million men and women victimized each year in the United States.

The data come from a new public health surveillance tool launched in 2010 called the National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey (NISVS), which conducted random telephone surveys with 9,000 women and 7,400 men. The NISVS will be an ongoing, annual project aimed at better understanding the frequency of intimate partner violence. It is the first survey to provide national and state-level data on the problem. The results were sobering:

Rape

Nearly 1 in 5 women — or 1.3 million women — reported rape or attempted rape. For 80% of women, attacks first happened before age 25; and for 42%, before age 18. Most women knew their assailants: 51% were raped by a partner, and 48% were raped by an acquaintance. About 35% of women who had been raped as minors were again raped as adults, the survey found.

There were far fewer male rape victims, but among them, 28% said they were first raped before the age of 11. While 52% of men were raped by an acquaintance, just over 15% were attacked by a stranger. Overall, most men and women who reported being raped were victimized by one person


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http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/01/06/10007698-us-broadens-definition-of-rape-includes-male-victims?lite

US broadens definition of rape; includes male victims

The Obama administration on Friday broadened the definition of the crime of rape to include more forms of sexual assaults such as rape of men and oral or anal sex, the first major revision to the definition in more than 80 years.

The new definition will include any gender of the victim and attacker and also assaults in which a victim cannot give consent because the individual has been incapacitated by drugs or alcohol, is under the age of consent, or is mentally or physically incapable of consent, the Justice Department said.

Physical resistance from the victim is not required to demonstrate lack of consent in the new definition, NBC reported.



"This long-awaited change to the definition of rape is a victory for women and men across the country whose suffering has gone unaccounted for over 80 years," Vice President Joe Biden said in a statement.




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http://www.opednews.com/articles/Survivor-of-US-Military-Ra-by-Ann-Wright-120911-756.html


Survivor of US Military Rape in Japan Allowed to Pursue Perpetrator in US Courts
By Ann Wright


After the September 6 hearing, law firm representative Christopher Hanewicz stated, "We are very satisfied with the Judge's decision, which is an important step in holding Mr. Deans accountable for his actions, bringing some sense of closure to Ms. Fisher's ten year ordeal."

After returning to the United States, Deans committed other crimes. According to Wisconsin court records, Deans was sentenced in 2012 to 45 days in jail in Milwaukee County for child neglect. Police found three of his children left alone in his house in a room locked from the outside. A 2-year-old and two 3-year-old twins were covered in their own feces and urine. Deans reportedly has 11 children.

Deans owns nine houses in Milwaukee and receives a military disability pension.

The next stage of Ms. Fisher's journey for justice will be an October 18, 2012 status hearing in Milwaukee in which decisions on a trial date and other aspects of the case will be made.

Rape of Civilian Women in Japan

Thousands of Japanese women and girls have been sexually assaulted or raped by US military personnel since American forces invaded Japan in 1945. On the island of Okinawa, rape of Okinawan girls has happened so frequently and has precipitated massive citizen protests that that the US military is being forced to reduce its presence on the island.




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http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jun/14/culture-coverup-rape-ranks-us-military



A culture of coverup: rape in the ranks of the US military

For men, combat experience is the leading cause of PTSD. For women, it's sexual assault. This is the real 'war on women'


In December 2005, for instance, Kori Cioca was serving in the US Coast Guard, and was raped by a commanding officer. In the assault, her jaw was broken. When she sought to move forward with her case, her own commanding officer told her that if she pursued the issue, she would face court martial for lying; her assailant, who admitted to the assault while denying that rape was part of it, was "punished" by being restricted to the base for 30 days and docked some pay.

Cioca now has PTSD, along with nerve damage to her face. She is fighting the Veterans Administration (VA) to receive approval for surgery she urgently needs; she has also become a plaintiff in a class action civil suit against the Department of Defense.

''He didn't rape me because I was pretty or because he wanted to have sex with me; he raped me because he hated me," she asserts.

The numbers around the level of sex assault in the military are staggering. There is so much of this going on in the US military that women soldiers' advocacy groups have created a new term for it: military sexual trauma or MST. Last year, there were 3,158 cases of sexual assault reported within the military. The Service Women's Action Network notes that rape is always under-reported, and that a military context offers additional hurdles to rape victims: the Department of Defense, they point out, estimates that these numbers are misleading because fewer than 14% of survivors report an assault. The DoD estimates that in 2010 alone, over 19,000 sexual assaults occurred in the military.



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You know, ( some ) DU women, I don't have any idea why you are getting all uppity about the "R" word. Cripes. It's not like it's a big problem, or like it's anything men and women should work together to eradicate.

Jeez, you ladies need to let it go! You're making some of the guys feel really, really bad here and that's far more horrific than the prevalence of rape in the US and in our military!

Dayum why do you women and guys keep caring about this issue? You're hurting people's FEELINGS here!!!!!!


STOP the Rape talk!!!!!! Just SHUT UP about it already!!!!!!










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Response to Tsiyu (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:50 PM

1. K&R



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Response to Tsiyu (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:51 PM

2. Right but one-in-sixteen college men is just an irredeemable sicko.

It isn't like rape has anything to do with the cultural subordination of women, or a longstanding cultural ideology that defines masculinity by the domination of women. Never mind that we can see the blatant cultural factors leading to rape in India, sub-Saharan Africa, and all those...umm...uncivilized places. This is America, and the mere mention that culture has anything at all to do with it, or that men have any role whatsoever to play in acknowledging and changing that culture, is just reverse sexism and trying to say that all men are rapists and being a feminazi.

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Response to antigone382 (Reply #2)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:02 PM

4. + a bajillion



The first step to solve a problem is to identify the problem.

I believe the statistics above make it very clear that we have a problem.

Now, on DU we have no trouble discussing ways to help education, the poor, the working person.

We can wax poetic on the plight of abandoned and abused animals...

But we can't have an intelligent discussion on this issue without it turning into a lie-fest to derail it?

So disgusting.

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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #4)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:08 PM

6. i have one reply for anyone who complains this topic hurts their feelings.

I don't care. Or, see post #4.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #6)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:12 PM

8. You don't care about their feelings?

You care more about the EPIDEMIC of rape in our society and in our military?

Harumph, you need to fix your priorities . There are a lot of wounded guys here, oh the humanity!!!!!


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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #8)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:23 PM

12. Nope. I caught a big case of outrage fatigue, and I don't plan to get over it.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #12)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:27 PM

14. I'm right there with you truthfully

angry and sad that we can all manage to find sympathy for abused animals, but some here cannot summon the same compassion for their fellow human beings...makes DU seem pretty pathetic when we all can't work together to fix this problem.


I appreciate your posts

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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #14)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:36 PM

28. Now that made me tear up. I appreciate this thread.

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Response to freshwest (Reply #28)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:28 PM

50. It's a sad time here

I have been close to heavy tears all day over the frustration and pain of reading a few men say basically "Not my problem."

And worse "You wanting to discuss rape is worse than rape."

That really, really hurts far more than I should let it. I don't know why. I know there are self absorbed assholes in the world, I just don't expect to find them here.

We have much work to do, and I'm the take no pirsoners sort ( dunno if anyone's ever noticed ) so thanks for inspiring me, those few of you who were and are assholes...

Thank you freshwest for sticking around!






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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #50)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:39 PM

56. I think finding all these bizarre responses and

rationalizations around rape posted here on DU can be very re-stimulating to those of us who are survivors. It puts us back--or at any rate it puts ME back--into this feeling that I really don't know who to trust, and that there is no true safe place in this world.

Which makes me appreciate your courage--and Requeen's and Seabeyond's and others'--all the more.

I think there are people who truly admire what you're doing, and the struggle you're in on behalf of all of us. I know because I'm one of them.

But--please--take some time to be good to yourself. Cultural change is never easy, never swift.

Best wishes.

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Response to thucythucy (Reply #56)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:54 PM

63. Your words mean so much



and YOU are worth fighting for!!!!!

Don't worry. I'm an old veteran of these cage matches. My kids will tell you, once you get me riled up, you better know what you're doing. I'm in for the night and have ALL night. And I don't brook no bullshit.

Should be working on the novel or painting or practicing music, but it's Saturday night and I am going to spend it advocating for all victims of rape, for all the friends on DU - male and female - who have been fighting the good fight. I backed off for a while, but they got me PISSED so here I am.

There is right and there is wrong. Fighting for the weak, the powerless, the victimized, the hurting is the RIGHT thing to do, always and everywhere.

I do appreciate your kind words.

Be good to yourself, too



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Response to thucythucy (Reply #56)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:13 PM

69. Yes, '...into this feeling that I really don't know who to trust... there is no true safe place..'

I felt today, that if this is what this place is going to be, I am going elsewhere. Because this is not a safe place. It's beyond what conservative sites would say if I made sure to shut my mouth on sexual matters, like I'm hearing here.

I'd wither inside leaving and not being able to feel any of my fellows had my back to rejoice in pushing progressive and liberal causes, but at least I'd know where I stood.

I felt dehumanized reading this stuff today. I will lock the doors to a great deal of DU, which will be no great loss to anyone. But I'll lock up my heart, just as in any other unsafe place where abuse is expected. I will probably delete this post, too, to avoid the hatred I feel here now.

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Response to freshwest (Reply #69)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 12:46 AM

97. You are so not alone

But remember the "unsafe" posters, those few men who make ugly posts and try to shut down discussion, and the few women who enable them in their own cowardice and dysfunctional need to get approval from the worst sorts of men, are the EXCEPTION on DU.

You can bet there are far more lurkers who agree with you and me and all the other good men and women who care about this issue.

The pigs just squeal really loudly, so there seem to be more of them than there really are here.

But I understand if it triggers bad things.

I really do, and I sometimes have to get out of here, too , so do what you have to do to keep YOU okay.

You are a very valuable member here. Never forget that.

The good folk are in the majority here.

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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #97)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 06:04 PM

250. I can vouch for that, because I was one of the lurkers yesterday.

Re "You can bet there are far more lurkers who agree with you and me and all the other good men and women who care about this issue."

As I said in a previous post to bettyellen, I was one of those lurkers yesterday. I am not a habitual lurker (I always like to get my two cents in), but in this case I was afraid my temper would get the better of me and I wouldn't be any help to you if I posted. Plus my nerves were already frayed from several hours of an Israel/Palestine debate on another forum. That's the other ever-reliable flamebait.

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Response to Raksha (Reply #250)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 06:40 PM

259. Hey, all the anger you got is welcome here

I was steamed yesterday, but now I see that the DoNothing DUers have mostly slunk away carrying the shreds of their pitiful arguments with them.

You won't hurt this thread or any thread of mine by injecting a little righteous anger here!

But it does bring up the blood pressure, so one must be careful.

Thank you for supporting this thread, and for supporting the past, present and sadly, future victims of rape.


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Response to thucythucy (Reply #56)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 01:44 PM

149. As a two-time attempted-rape survivor, I agree w you completely. And it hurts me to still see

men take offense at simple discussions about rape and rape prevention.

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Response to Nay (Reply #149)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 06:45 PM

261. That's what's so cruel about these handful of cretins

It takes a tremendous amount of courage to come forward and admit to having been raped.

It cuts to some people's very core being. So when callous, sexist, misogynistic men dismiss the topic of rape - or worse, act all offended at the mere word "rape" - and practically taunt and mock rape victims, it really, really pisses me off.

How fucking low can some posters go to prove just what unstable creeps they are? They never fail to keep showing us!




Thank you for being here.

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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #50)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:16 PM

73. i'm trying, really hard. Thanks so much.

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Response to freshwest (Reply #73)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 12:38 AM

96. I always love your posts wherever I see them

I don't always respond on this dialup rig, but I would really miss you if you left for good!

Illigitimi non carborundum or something like that



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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #50)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 06:50 AM

108. The worst perpetrators of this insoucience need to "man up." I mean, really.

If they can't muster the mental energy it takes to think this through, then I really don't want to know them. I have wonderful male Feminists in my family and they include my husband, my son and my sons in law and surely my grandsons when they get older. And guess what? They are happy men in happy marriages. Thank god for them. I can be happy for my 3 granddaughters, having such a terrific father and for my daughters having such great husbands.

Here's a clue: life is one hell of a lot better for MEN who support Feminist ideals! They attract wonderful women and raise fine children and if those aren't the BEST things in life that can happen to you, then you don't know how to live.

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Response to CTyankee (Reply #108)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 01:42 PM

148. This



Any man who gets his sole feeling of manhood oppressing women is a sad man indeed.

As the saying goes, when you hold somebody down, you gotta stay down there with them.

Great post.

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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #148)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 01:51 PM

151. Thanks. I am too damn old to put up with this nonsense.

It's one of the good things about getting old. I get to say what I damn well please...

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Response to CTyankee (Reply #108)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 07:52 PM

287. Thank you, CTyankee...much appreciated.

Re "Here's a clue: life is one hell of a lot better for MEN who support Feminist ideals! They attract wonderful women and raise fine children and if those aren't the BEST things in life that can happen to you, then you don't know how to live."

My husband and certain wonderful male friends of mine would be the first to agree with you, and my two children are living proof.

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Response to Raksha (Reply #287)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 07:58 PM

292. I feel so sorry in a way for these sexist guys who just can't get past it. It is so easy for

the men in my family. They are naturally "with it." And they are happy! My son is a devoted Feminist and he is a tough prosecutor in New York. He has a bunch of tough customers to deal with, believe me. And he is wonderfully feminist! He and his wife are expecting their first child (my FIFTH grandchild) in January! A boy! And I know his child will grow up as he has, as a caring man who supports feminist ideals because his dad and mom live those ideals every day.

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Response to CTyankee (Reply #292)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 10:04 PM

320. Congrats on the new grandchild



And your posts have added a lot of positive vibes to this thread.



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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #320)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 11:35 PM

332. Thanks. I am pretty much blessed or at least I feel that way.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #6)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:30 PM

15. Right there with you.

We're supposed to shut up... because a few men have hurt feelings?

Um... no. Just no.

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Response to MadrasT (Reply #15)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:36 PM

16. a few men want to steer the conversation EXCLUSIVELY to be about their hurt feelings. NEVER AGAIN.

Cool story bro.
Still, I don't care.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #16)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:15 PM

72. hurt feelings vs. altered life after surviving a rape...

the teeter totter per effect on individual life seems to weigh heavily in one direction. I would hope that for most people these would seem like non-comparable situations.

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Response to salin (Reply #72)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:23 PM

77. After giving a few here the benefit of the doubt, I see thread jacking and making it all about them

is their purpose. Not going there with ANY of them. There already exist a few fine pity threads they can join in where they will be OT.

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Response to salin (Reply #72)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 02:45 AM

104. We can hope, but I doubt it'll ever be.

One of the OP of one of these rape threads once argued that men have more to fear because they are more likely to be murdered than women, implying, as I read it, that when men who have a greater chance of getting killed don't let it color their behavior, women shouldn't believe all men are rapists etc. When I pointed out the numbers (ca 14,000 murders, of men and women, and 90,000 *reported* rapes) and said equating the two was disingenuous at best, I got no answer.

Heck, a DoJ report found that 1 out of every 34 female college students experienced a completed rape in any academic year. IOW, every year, 3% of all women in college are raped - and that doesn't count any attempted rapes or sexual assaults that don't qualify as rapes. And they think their poutrage is more important our reality?

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #16)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 09:27 AM

120. That's the hard truth here. What amazed me about one of the recent "hurt feelings"

threads (which I won't identify) was that it produced in me a feeling of disgust with the whininess of it all. The "this is terribly upsetting to me!" whimpering. The taking a subject as serious as rape and turning it into your own personal pity party. The utter "what about ME?" selfishness of it.

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Response to CTyankee (Reply #120)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 12:57 PM

134. it's too common the guy makes it about his feelings - refusing to support the woman involved

Comments below are amazing.


"Step 2: The women speak up about it to their partners.

Step 3: It gets written off as “not a big deal” or “he probably didn’t mean it” or “he’s not a bad guy, really.” Any discussion of the bad behavior must immediately be followed by a complete audit of his better qualities or the sad things he’s suffered in the name of “fairness.” Once the camera has moved in and seen him in closeup as a real, human, suffering person, how can you (the object, always an object, as in “objectified,” as in a disembodied set of tits or orifices, or a Trapper Keeper, or a favorite coffee mug or a pet cat) be so cruel as to want to hold him accountable for his actions? Bitches, man.

Step 4: Everyone is worried about hurting creepy dude’s feelings or making it weird for creepy dude. Better yet, everyone is worried about how the other dudes in the friend group will feel if they are called out for enabling creepy dude. Women are worried that if they push the issue, that the entire friend group will side with creepy dude or that they’ll be blamed for causing “drama.” Look at how LW #323 put it: ”how can I approach this subject with my boyfriend, and make him understand a) how serious this is, and b) that he is not responsible for Ben’s reactions, without making him feel defensive?”

Wouldn’t want someone who covers up for and defends a proto-rapist to have to have SADFEELS, right? (LW, it’s not your fault you’re asking the question this way, it’s just that our culture sucks about this and your boyfriend and his friends have been giving you constant messages that Ben is to be coddled while you are to be shushed in the hopes that it will all blow over)."


http://captainawkward.com/2012/08/07/322-323-my-friend-group-has-a-case-of-the-creepy-dude-how-do-we-clear-that-up/#comment-20894

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #134)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 02:11 PM

156. Ignore that PM

asking you to post this.

I'm on slow speed.

Thanks for this additional link that provides further insight into the "rape culture" that - ahem - IS REAL.


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Response to bettyellen (Reply #6)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 05:49 PM

244. You have NO idea how those words "I don't care" lifted my heart when I read them.

I never thought there could possibly be a context where I'd ever say that. But I spent a couple of hours lurking on that DU thread yesterday, the one where a self-centered and long-winded man wanted to make the discussion ALL about him and his feelings of outrage over the "reverse sexism," and blah blah blah. It was one the more blatant examples of threadjacking I've ever seen. I didn't post anything, but I know exactly what you and Tsiyu went through yesterday, and probably for several days before that.

I didn't dare post anything because I have a short fuse and I know it. I would not have done the DU feminists any favors if I'd lost control of myself, which could have happened very easily.

I DON'T CARE ABOUT YOUR FEELINGS.

In some contexts, those are the most empowering words a woman can say to a man, and I might never have realized that as clearly as I do now if it hadn't been for that long-winded brawl yesterday. There is an unspoken rule in so many discussions between men and women, both in RL and online, that the precious and fragile male ego MUST be protected above all, MUST be mollified and coddled and reassured no matter what.

"No darling, of course I didn't mean ALL men, and of course I didn't mean YOU," etc. And not once, but over and over and over again!

I mean, really...are they babies, that we have to keep wiping their snotty noses no matter how much WE are hurting, no matter how desperately important the issue is to US? What are we, their mommies?

Come to think of it, that's exactly how some of these entitled spoiled brats seem to think.

And NO, that doesn't go for all the men on DU. (I still had to say that.) Fortunately, some of you are adults, and you know who you are. And so do we.

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Response to Raksha (Reply #244)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 05:59 PM

248. Thank you. The issue and our experiences trump the "hurt" of those who obviously don't care about us


It should be obvious, and acceptable- but it's angered a great deal of men. They're coming out of the woodwork.


This tactic is so universal it astounds me. Please check out this advice column post and comments, you'll see all women have this social pressure to be the ONLY person with respect for anyones feelings. It;s pretty mindblowing stuff, this entitlement.

Step 1: A creepy dude does creepy, entitled shit and makes women feel unsafe.

Step 2: The women speak up about it to their partners.

Step 3: It gets written off as “not a big deal” or “he probably didn’t mean it” or “he’s not a bad guy, really.” Any discussion of the bad behavior must immediately be followed by a complete audit of his better qualities or the sad things he’s suffered in the name of “fairness.” Once the camera has moved in and seen him in closeup as a real, human, suffering person, how can you (the object, always an object, as in “objectified,” as in a disembodied set of tits or orifices, or a Trapper Keeper, or a favorite coffee mug or a pet cat) be so cruel as to want to hold him accountable for his actions? Bitches, man.

Step 4: Everyone is worried about hurting creepy dude’s feelings or making it weird for creepy dude. Better yet, everyone is worried about how the other dudes in the friend group will feel if they are called out for enabling creepy dude. Women are worried that if they push the issue, that the entire friend group will side with creepy dude or that they’ll be blamed for causing “drama.” Look at how LW #323 put it: ”how can I approach this subject with my boyfriend, and make him understand a) how serious this is, and b) that he is not responsible for Ben’s reactions, without making him feel defensive?”

Wouldn’t want someone who covers up for and defends a proto-rapist to have to have SADFEELS, right? (LW, it’s not your fault you’re asking the question this way, it’s just that our culture sucks about this and your boyfriend and his friends have been giving you constant messages that Ben is to be coddled while you are to be shushed in the hopes that it will all blow over).




http://captainawkward.com/2012/08/07/322-323-my-friend-group-has-a-case-of-the-creepy-dude-how-do-we-clear-that-up/#comment-20894

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #248)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 07:31 PM

280. Thanks for the link. It's a very long thread and I didn't read all the posts,

but one that I did read and appreciated very much was this world-class rant from "Sheelzebub":

Sheelzebub August 9, 2012 at 9:04 am
You know, I’m getting tired of this trope. I’m going to be harsh with you because I’ve had my fill of this dismissive, belittling, erasing, victim-blaming shit. Your comment is quite like what women run into all. of. the. fucking. time. and it puts us in a position where we cannot win. And I am fucking goddamn sick of it.

These guys aren’t showing interest, they’re being 100% inappropriate. In fact, “inappropriate” is the mildest thing I can say about their behavior.

You do not grope people you are interested in. You do not hit on 16-year-olds (FFS). You do not SEXUALLY ASSAULT people. You do not harass people.

I mean, gosh, I feel so sorry that you’re worried that you’re seen as a creeper, but do you see what you just did there? You mention in passing that one of your women friends said she didn’t feel safe hanging out with your friend alone–and then go on to lecture us about how we MUST be more assertive with these guys, while whining that we have to understand that men feel defensive.

Except, hello, had you read the OP’s and the comments, you’d see that when we ARE assertive, we are dismissed as drama queens, the guy’s defended as socially awkward, and what he did is called no big deal. (Sort of like what ***you just did*** in your comment.) So tell me, how are we supposed to assert ourselves when our supposed friends will get defensive and excuse this shit? What, we’re supposed to coddle the menz who feel intimidated and scared of rejection (because women are never, EVER rejected ever, and socially awkward women apparently don’t exist, pay no attention to any woman who comments here)? We’re supposed to stand up for ourselves but then understand why it’s dismissed, we’re dismissed, and we’re left twisting in the wind when we feel THREATENED AND UNSAFE? And that feeling THREATENED AND UNSAFE is apparently okay since you dudes feel. . .defensive?

Seriously? Listen to yourself. You’re acting like part of the problem.

How about this? Instead of wagging your goddamn finger at women for not doing enough to school you like they’re your goddamn legion of mommies, you recognize that your defensiveness and your closing ranks around guys who violate boundaries and make women feel unsafe is the problem? How about you save your fucking finger wagging for your fellow dudely dudes, who harass women and/or brush it off when their friends do it? How about you keep in mind that awkward women exist and that we’re not given NEARLY the pass you dudes give yourselves? And that in addition to being socially awkward, we’re also now expected to expected to raise GROWN ASS MEN WHO SHOULD FUCKING KNOW BETTER.

You didn’t react to the revelation that women are often made to feel unsafe by saying, “Hey, I’d better step in and have my womens friends’ backs when stuff like this happens.” You chose to put the responsibility on us. That is not cool, and frankly, if a friend of mine pulled that shit with me he’d no longer be a friend.
==================

I can't relate to the specific example given, i.e. men closing ranks around a creepy dude, because my late husband would never have done that. He would have been the first to recognize a creepy dude even before I did, and would have warned me to stay away from him. If he ever had the slightest tendency that way, it lasted until he had a daughter, the acknowledged and overwhelming love of his life. The Goddess (Kali, in this case) help any creepy dude who even looked like he was going to mess with his precious baby!

Unfortunately, he couldn't protect her 24/7. Our daughter was just the kind of adorable little blond girl who is catnip for perverts. By the time she was 12 years old she had been molested about six times, mostly by older boys and men exposing themselves, but sometimes by feeling her up too. On one notable occasion, it happened in the local library when all of us were with her--my husband and her brother and me. But she was in the children's section and we were all distracted in other sections--and that was all it took.

I had to take the precaution of telling her explicitly that if she felt anything (i.e. sexually aroused) if a strange man touched her, that she was not to feel guilty about it; that it was a purely biological response and was NOT the same thing as consent. "It feels good when you touch yourself there, doesn't it?" I said. Fortunately, she was and is a smart girl and she understood.

I don't mean to suggest that my husband was 100% liberated--far from it. For example: he just could not "get it" about date rape when he first heard about it. He seemed genuinely mystified by the whole concept. He told me that when he was in high school, girls were "supposed" to put up at least a token protest against persistent guys--to protect their virtue, I guess. So then the guy was "supposed" to keep trying to push past her boundaries, to test whether NO really meant NO or not.

I went to high school at the same time he did, but I was still kind of flabbergasted when I realized my husband truly didn't understand what date rape was. I mean...what was the girl supposed to do, slap the guy in the face like in the old silent movies? Kick him in the balls? I guess that would make even the most dense guy realize that NO does indeed mean NO.

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Response to Raksha (Reply #280)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 07:39 PM

281. "that feeling THREATENED AND UNSAFE is apparently okay since you dudes feel. . .defensive? " Yep...

this is actually what some men here say. Mostly trolls.
I wonder if they are afraid to react because they think they are supposed to do something macho.... but we're asking for their support here and we get rants about civil liberties and discrimination instead. I dunno.
But there's a ton of great stuff in those comments. Glad to hear from you!

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #281)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 08:10 PM

297. Here's the part of that rant I can really relate to:

How about this? Instead of wagging your goddamn finger at women for not doing enough to school you like they’re your goddamn legion of mommies, you recognize that your defensiveness and your closing ranks around guys who violate boundaries and make women feel unsafe is the problem? How about you save your fucking finger wagging for your fellow dudely dudes, who harass women and/or brush it off when their friends do it? How about you keep in mind that awkward women exist and that we’re not given NEARLY the pass you dudes give yourselves? And that in addition to being socially awkward, we’re also now expected to expected to raise GROWN ASS MEN WHO SHOULD FUCKING KNOW BETTER.


I am SOOOO goddamn fed up with always having to walk on eggshells around the fucking all-important male ego, REGARDLESS of how vitally important the issue might be to me and other women! Yes, the fact that SHE feels unsafe (probably with good reason) is one hell of a lot more important than whether HE feels defensive. Any man who is tempted to go on a whiny pity party over how unfairly he's being "stereotyped" in this kind of discussion would do well to bear that in mind. That attitude just reeks of privilege.

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Response to Raksha (Reply #297)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 10:10 PM

321. I just want to encourage you to keep writing here

Your posts here are excellent.

yeah, it does seem they want us to be the "Mommies" and protect their feelings, but then they want to turn around and tell us how to post, how to title our threads, how to parse everything so they won't pout.

They are like little man children. Can't take them seriously.

Please keep writing, I loved your post above about "I DON'T CARE" Righteous!



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Response to Raksha (Reply #297)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 11:28 PM

331. it takes some serious entitlement to insist we walk on eggshells,and I am NOT enabling that attitude

not for a moment longer. We are on to their bullshit excuses for not having the conversation.
These disruptors are just pretending that they'd be supportive IF only we jumped through hoops first. Decent human beings don't play those games. They are part of the problem, because they want to squelch discusssion and resist any talk about education.
The pity party needs to move elsewhere.

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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #4)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:40 PM

32. The sad part is these people are uninterested in the facts and statistics you present.

The perspectives of women being insufficiently "unbiased" (why the bias of men is never questioned I don't know), they demand facts and figures to back up our complaints. When presented with such facts and figures, they undermine the value of the social sciences which supply them. Never mind that, flawed as sociology and associated disciplines may be, they are the best tool we have for empirically understanding the nature of social problems. The real goal here is not to supply a better mechanism for evaluating, analyzing, and attempting to resolve these problems; it is to use whatever means necessary to deny that male privilege exists, or that its implications are violence and marginalization against women, and against many men who fail for whatever reason to measure up to the ideals of masculinity).

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Response to antigone382 (Reply #32)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:25 PM

49. and they can go on to the pity party their friends are throwing elsewhere on DU but after this week

I'm not entertaining their transparent tread jacking attempts.

This ain't about the boys feelings, we're not here to heal their egos.

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Response to antigone382 (Reply #32)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:36 PM

52. Where this issue is concerned, some Male Duers

act like Republicans.

Suddenly fact-based discussions are derailed over "impressions" and lies.

I think sometimes they must all be trolls, and like bettyellen said they better expect to get called on their shit. This approval of their game-playing is OVER.

Nearly everyone who knows me on this board knows I have a very thick skin and no problem telling you you're full of shit.

Thanks for your contributions to this thread.






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Response to antigone382 (Reply #2)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 05:39 PM

240. Excellent post! I might steal it someday!

If that's ok, of course..

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Response to Tsiyu (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:57 PM

3. Come on, where are all the people

who want to call this an "all men are rapists" post?

( there ARE no posts like that on DU, but some keep pretending there are, so they must be in some fantasy DU. )

Come on folks, fight for your honor!

Fight for the right to not have to do anything about the epidemic of rape!

Fight for the right to not even have to discuss it!

Some men have been seriously wounded by the discussions, and I for one feel far more sympathy for them than for any rape victims!



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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #3)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:09 PM

7. They won't respond here but

two things will happen.

(1) Someone will post a Meta thread about how mean you are, all of those facts and everything...

(2) Your OP will be sent to a jury with the message that it is just not fair that the women are pickin' on the guys again.


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Response to DURHAM D (Reply #7)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:18 PM

10. But, but, but



I'm only standing up for those who can discuss ANY issue but the "R" word.

I feel horrible that they are so put upon by these threads.

More than that, in all seriousness, I feel very sad about the lies being told. I don't know how we can eradicate rape if we cannot even have conversations about what we can all do to stop it.

*****If even one poster can link to a post that says "all men are either rapists or rapist enablers" I will be so happy...then I will know I've not landed in some alternate universe where a lie is treated with the same seriousness as the truth.

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Response to DURHAM D (Reply #7)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:36 PM

17. don't forget to add this one:

 

rape is way down because of internet porn.

them's the facts ma'am, just because some guy says so. Listen up, girl.

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Response to Whisp (Reply #17)


Response to Tsiyu (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:06 PM

5. almost 30% under eleven years of age, horrible. education needs to start early for girls and boys

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #5)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:22 PM

11. I know

I am so glad that my President and Vice President care enough to keep making progress on this issue.

I am very proud of Obama and Biden for taking this issue seriously.

There are more than a few posters here - male and female - who could learn something from the two men they just re-elected.

The sadness is very great tonight. I feel for all of the victims of rape and I hope that many will wake up and try to help rather than pretending "there is no problem so just shut up already."




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Response to Tsiyu (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:13 PM

9. This is a wake up call for many men on DU, sad to say. But it is true.

These results are NOT good news, guys. Trust me, they are NOT. Nobody is indicting the entire male sex (my husband is an example of rape intolerance and feminism). It's time. Give up the defensiveness. Understand the problem. It's not hard, really. It is an easy thing to understand and get your arms around. Just do it.

Just do it.

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Response to CTyankee (Reply #9)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:23 PM

13. Damn but you actually made me tear up here



Thanks....


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Response to CTyankee (Reply #9)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:45 PM

20. "Give up the defensiveness. Understand the problem."

Exactly.

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Response to ProfessionalLeftist (Reply #20)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:02 PM

21. Crossposted from another thread: with edits

Rape is at EPIDEMIC levels in this nation. EPIDEMIC LEVELS. The CDC - hardly a feminist outpost - calls the prevalence of rape a significant public health issue in the US.

Rape in the military is TWICE that of civilian rape, and 46% of the victims being treated for trauma related to military rape are MEN

If you don"t feel compelled to care about women, how about a little compassion for those guys? If everyone was doing all they could, do you think we'd be seeing these horrific statistics?

If everyone is doing ALL they can do - why is rape such a significant problem????

I don't understand why some guys feel like it's not their problem. To me, as Democrat and an American, all significant problems in this nation are MY problems, too.

If 100% of rape victims were male, I would post the very same amount and with an equal measure of compassion and hope that ALL OF US TOGETHER would do our utmost to eradicate rape of males.

Many think they have nothing to offer, they're not part of the problem, we don't live in a culture that promotes rape according to them. One in six women and one in 71 men might disagree.

I am just so glad President Obama and Vice President Biden are taking this issue VERY seriously.



Neither Obama nor Biden has dropped the issue by saying "hey, we're guys and we don't rape so - not our problem."

Thank you President Obama and VP Joe Biden for showing Democrats that it's important to care about rape victims and to do all we can do and then some to make rape as non-existent as we can.




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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #21)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:21 PM

23. I agree that all sexual violence should be stopped

However women are victims of rape more often than men:

http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-victims

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Response to ProfessionalLeftist (Reply #23)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:27 PM

24. Oh yes

one in six women, one in 71 men.

Definitely means women are being victimized in huge, terrifying numbers.

But when 46% of men in the military are being raped, you'd think the reluctant guys would have some compassion and say, OK what can we all do to stop this behavior.

It seems some men don't view women as having very much value; but you'd think even if they hate women, they'd care about their own gender a little more than to just say "I'm not a rapist. Don't mess up my beautiful mind."


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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #24)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:32 PM

26. I agree. I'm really shocked at that military number - 46%. One thing is . . .

. . . I think guys will listen to other guys much more readily than they'll listen to women or some authority (gov't, police, whatever).

Men have an important role to play in stopping this, whether it's perpetrated against other men or against women. Because guys will listen to other guys. They can help educate and discourage the behavior - maybe better than anyone else can. Going all defensive and saying "well I'm not a rapist so why should I care" is not how to help change this problem.

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Response to ProfessionalLeftist (Reply #26)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:04 PM

66. It's really no more than a lazy cop-out


of course, we each only have limited resources and time, but we can all confront the losers who make misogynist comments.

Like you said, some men will only listen to other men. That's why men are so important in this struggle.

We have a long way to go, obviously, but we'll get there someday I sincerely hope.


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Response to Tsiyu (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:44 PM

19. Sexual violence is a human rights epidemic worldwide. One reason it's not considered as such ...

... is that in many places, including the United States, women are STILL not even considered HUMAN. Think about that. It also explains the Republican's extreme anti-woman policies ie: war on women, along with our worldwide rape culture. IMO it's one of the only things that can explain all this. Women are simply not considered human.

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Response to ProfessionalLeftist (Reply #19)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:20 PM

22. So true


The Republicans offered up what, 1000 bills last year trying to get in our uteruses, because we're too fucking stupid to handle our own reproductive lives? Did we see the Republicans offer even one bill trying to control men's genitalia or men's right to their own sexual autonomy? Any bills trying to outlaw condoms or Viagra? NO! Because Republicans think woman are "things."

1000 bills trying to get into our pants! I would love to hear one of these put upon guys on DU tell me how they'd have felt if the Republicans had offered up 1000 bills trying to legislate their penises! But I don't even think they want to imagine what that feels like; maybe because of their status, they CAN'T imagine what that must feel like unless they are gay, bisexual or transexual.

But the truth is, the men who don't want to discuss rape are abandoning their own gender. Men are rape victims as well, so any attempt to fight the prevalence of rape ALSO helps men. It's a win-win.

To be honest, I am so angry that some people want to be coddled here, to pretend this very serious public health issue is just fluff.

I normally don't post in these kinds of threads, but I just have had ENOUGH of seeing women trying to bend over backwards so a few guys don't have to get their little feeling hurt.

And to read a man say that asking him to help solve the rape problem is as VICTIMIZING as being raped, it just horrified me.

I hope none of these guys has daughters. Seriously.




I honestly think there are a lot of guys who just view all of this as a big game they're playing.

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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #22)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:28 PM

25. They're not seeing the whole picture ie: victims of their own gender

and there are a significant number of them. Not quite as many as women but still very significant - and still sexual violence. And male victims of rape have virtually no voice and I guess these overly-defensive guys here and elsewhere don't see fit to help them have one, either.

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Response to ProfessionalLeftist (Reply #25)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:37 PM

30. How can anyone be that cold-hearted toward their fellow humans?

I don't get it at all.

Hiding racism, sexism, homophobia and religious intolerance under the rug so we won't offend anyone has NEVER worked. My dad was going on and on about Susan B. Anthony the other day, praising her courage in the face of so much opposition and hatred.

He is the first feminist I knew! He was telling me about a book he gave my daughter: 1001 Facts about Women's History, I think was the title. He has always encouraged my mom, my neices, my daughter and my sister and I to be strong women.

We're all in this together. Rape is everyone's problem. With the statistics what they are, if a man knows six women, he knows a rape victim.

If you love your country, you want to see it healed from these crimes. Yet we're always being told to just "shut up" and I'm fed up to the point I'm posting about it now.

They've opened Pandora's Box now by completely disgusting me and pissing me off!

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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #30)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 10:54 AM

126. "Rape is everyone's problem"

BINGO!

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Response to ProfessionalLeftist (Reply #19)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 05:21 AM

343. Yup.

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Response to Tsiyu (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:32 PM

27. So taxing tobacco certainly worked

 

Message received. Time to tax the date-rape drug.

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Response to NoOneMan (Reply #27)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:56 PM

64. yeah

because making rape jokes is soooooo funny. Even more so in a thread that discusses how those types of remarks are used by some men to hide behind. Please delete your post.

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Response to mercuryblues (Reply #64)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:10 PM

68. Thanks mercuryblues



Another coward slinks forward to slime another thread.....don't they just make you wonder who the hell raised them? The Taliban?


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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #68)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:16 PM

74. more like

more like the Fred Phelps.

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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #68)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 01:52 AM

101. With all due respect,

 

If you want a serious topic to be treated seriously, don't:

1) Start 5000 redundant threads about it
2) Use a trivial social behavior like smoking or roller-skating to "gague" its occurance
3) "Pile on" people with "coward", "slime", "taliban" comments if they do not high-five your 5000th redundant thread in a pre-approved canned response.

And do realize, the comment I made was not actually directed at the activity of rape, but the manner in which its frequency is being presented. I also have no idea how many people smoke or how often. A more useful headline would of been "a rape happens every X minutes" or "A rape occurs to 1 out of X women". Instead, the title is sensational as it was trivial.

This is the Taliban:


I reported the comment myself. This is my 3rd rape thread post (after seeing the front-page of DU being covered in rape posts for some time). It is my last rape thread post. Good night.

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Response to NoOneMan (Reply #101)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 02:20 AM

102. Oh my what would I have done without your manly, patronizing

Last edited Sun Dec 2, 2012, 03:19 AM - Edit history (3)

advice? I've been lost all this time without you telling me what to do!

You're so goddamned arrogant, you think you've been here two months and you can tell me how to post when I've been here 8 years? Is that it? Cuz yer a guy and us Little Missies need you to tell us how to fucking post a thread? FOR FUCK's SAKE!!!!!

More male self-aggrandizing "authoritai" this board does NOT need.

Some serious FACTS for you after your ridiculous hyperbole:

A) This is my only thread on the topic. Can you say "search function?" Can you COUNT?

B) Your post was callous and sickening and slimy, IMO

C) You think American males don't kill American females in the same cold-blooded manner? The most dangerous time for a woman is when she's pregnant! Yes, American men murder their pregnant partners with relative frequency. And can you say BELCHER just SHOT his girlfriend in cold blood just like your pics?

And I will post as many rape threads as I like, your poutrage notwithstanding. It appears to really piss your type off to have to even see the word "rape" which means the only thing that might cure those of you with that disorder is flooding the board with rape posts.

You minimized the OP title to get a few chuckles from the mouth breathers, but this ain't the godddamned lounge, Buddy.






And one more thing: the title of the OP was from the first article I cited and linked to. But you'd have known that if you bothered to actually READ the OP.

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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #102)


Response to Sparta09 (Reply #106)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 07:36 AM

111. OMG! Are you serious?


And finally, for now, you also have to realize that this situation is mostly of your own making. Men used to defend the honor of women and do a lot more to protect them from rape. It was called "The Patriarchy", and you chose to try get rid of it, so you are responsible for the consequences of that. Now, if you want my help to combat "rape culture", you need to support the restoration of the patriachy, otherwise no deal. You can't make demands of me without offering anything in return, and if you want to be treated like a lady, you have to act like one.

SWOOOSH--- Right over your head. SWOOOOOOOOSH

Your post is exactly what is wrong with this country, this culture. No wonder it totally went over your head.

"if you want to be treated like a lady, you have to act like one"

Look, the D is the big tent, I know - but I have no inclination to be in the same tent as you. The kind of bullshit your peddling here has no place within this community, as long as every voice counts equal, irrespective of gender.

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Response to Democracyinkind (Reply #111)


Response to Sparta09 (Reply #114)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 07:49 AM

115. The only toxic legacy here... Is the one you'll leave after being tombstoned.

I am a man, BTW, and I have not asked you for anything.


Edit: I predicted this troll's demise. But I'm not sure he wouldn't be welcome within a certain segment of posters in this thread.

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Response to Democracyinkind (Reply #115)


Response to Sparta09 (Reply #116)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 07:58 AM

117. The purpose of this thread is to reach such ignorant minds as yours

We can agree on this: Wasted effort, as far as you are concerned.

Luckily you're not the benchmark... Trolls never are...

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Response to Democracyinkind (Reply #117)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 01:30 PM

146. Thanks for holding down the fort

while I was out hunting any patriarchal holdouts with my Magical Ovaries of Patriarchal Destruction.

You da' bomb!

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Response to Sparta09 (Reply #116)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 09:46 AM

124. Oh, I know, I know, it's your party and you'll cry if you want to...

and I would cry too if it happened to me...

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Response to Sparta09 (Reply #116)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 01:28 PM

144. Ooo, you got robes in the closet, too?

Did I singlehandedly destroy racism as well? I am the SHIT!

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Response to Sparta09 (Reply #106)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 01:16 PM

139. Gooody gooody! Such fun when I've been away a bit!

Let's decontruct this lovely illustrative post, shall we? ( I suspect we have another attention-hungry troll here, but do not know this for certain, just a hunch...they're desperate over there )

Personally, this is my first ever post after lurking for a few weeks, but it's already obvious to me that you make any discussion on this issue impossible. You create threads aimed at men, purporting to offer advice about rape and how to prevent it, which naturally will invite men to comment. And yet as soon as they do, they're accused of "making it all about them", of "patronizing" you and "male self-aggrandizing", and other such nonsense, even though it already is about them.


Here, Men and Women of DU, we have another male acting like the male I chastised above, talking to ME as if I am "ALL WOMEN OF DU." You see, to a misogynist, all women are the same, so when he says "you" he means "all you girls" and he is giving me advice as if I will pass it on to all the other women with my magic ovaries. See how that works?

We are one large female amoebic mass and we all move, think, post and respond the same. When the NoMan dude posted, he did the same thing "You post 5000 posts." You see now? He wasn't saying that "I" personally made 5000 posts. He was speaking to all of you other women who made posts - THROUGH me. Misogynists do not view women as individuals, never have , never will. IF either of these guys HAD viewed me as an individual, they wouldn't have made reference to all my threads. I've only posted one thread on rape here. ONE.

So they were preaching to all of us who have made rape posts. We are all the same person to the misogynist. You can kinda trade women like baseball cards, we're all the same.


I'm sorry, but if you're going to make anti-male threads full of misinformation, false allegations, and false assumptions about how men think or behave, then you can't expect it to go unchallenged. Likewise, you don't get to redefine "rape" for your own purposes. I'm aware that the definition of "rape" seems to have been expanded to include pretty much all interaction between men and women these days, but I don't have to accept that, or the absurd and inaccurate rape statistics that a definition like that is inevitably going to produce


Oh, the irony. Sparta the Farta judges ALL women by MY post, and then says I'm assuming how men think or behave. Sure, dude. AS for "redefining rape" can someone show me anywhere here that I redefined rape? President Obama's administration did so, but he's a man, remember? S the F is, again, talking to some unknown female DUer through my magical ovaries.

You also need to realize that dismissing people who don't agree with your every word as "misogynists", "mouth breathers", "slime" and so on and so forth, is unhelpful and doesn't encourage debate, empathy or understanding, it only creates the defensiveness you keep complaining about. That has nothing to do with me being a man or you being a woman, it has to do with your intolerance and hypocrisy.


I've spent 8 years here having a blast, making friends, disagreeing with a lot of folks on DU. Yet a poster who has been here one day feels compelled to explain to me JUST how to do it right! Look Sparta the Farta, if the shoe fits, I'll throw it at you. Got it? There are many men on DU with whom I have disagreed, and there was no wailing or gnashing of teeth and no insult. Probably because they didn't talk to me like I had magical ladyparts that could transmit their messages to all the other women. Probably because they made their point without being condescending, vile, sexist or stupid.

Take the poster bettyellen, for example, who several times in this thread has said that she doesn't care about whose feelings she hurts. Fine, but why should I care about her feelings or anyone elses? Her attitude is counterproductive, and I won't stand back and let her spew her poison and lies all over these threads just because I'm a man. I have the right to confront nonsense like that wherever I see it.


You won't stand back and let her? Oh, My What are ya gonna do about it, Big Boy? Should we armour up our magical Ladyparts? Listen pal, she'll eat you for lunch. And if you ARE such a prolific lurker, you know what precipitated her
comment. Misogynists, as they have done for generations, decided that a discussion of rape hurt their feelings more than rape hurt the rape victim. So, yeah, i'm right with bettyellen. No more tolerance for whiners, obfuscators or men who think they have it worse than rape victims because they are asked to care about ending rape. I don't care about those ignoramus' feelings either. They are self-absorbed, sexist and probably some of them are dangerous. I'll give you a secret from our magical lady SOP manual: The less you care about a sexist narcissists' feelings, the more the Goddess grows in the firmament


And finally, for now, you also have to realize that this situation is mostly of your own making. Men used to defend the honor of women and do a lot more to protect them from rape. It was called "The Patriarchy", and you chose to try get rid of it, so you are responsible for the consequences of that. Now, if you want my help to combat "rape culture", you need to support the restoration of the patriachy, otherwise no deal. You can't make demands of me without offering anything in return, and if you want to be treated like a lady, you have to act like one


Here we go folks. I, personally, have increased the rate of rape in America. It's all my fault. Who the fuck knew? Since I, all on my own, got rid of the Patriarchy ( DAYUM, ain't I all that and a box of tampons! ) men just can't summon any more concern for the wymmins. They are now free to rape us and pillage our homes in violent hordes, free of their chains of Patriarchy! If only I had submitted! If only I had left the Patriarchy in its rightful place oppressing and abusing and restricting and "protecting" wymmins, they wouldn't all have to rape us now. IT'S ALL MY FAULT AND I'm SO SORRY!

Oh, Sparta the Farta, I only wish I could have singlehandedly vanquished the Patriarchy. Instead, I have a gun and six big kids and a bunch of friends who would lay down their lives for me. I don't need your protection. But you see it as open season on women, so goddess help any women near you. if I were your daughter, I'd run like hell as far, far away from you as I could. You are giving yourself permission to rape because you can't control women anymore, and that makes you a sick, sick, sick fuck and I hope you go to prison.

Hope I said that ladylike enough for you.


And as for helping you restore the Patriarchy that I, presonally destroyed: ALL YOUR PATRIARCHY ARE BELONG TO ME!






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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #139)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 01:56 PM

152. This is probably the best post ever on DU.

You win.

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Response to antigone382 (Reply #152)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 02:16 PM

159. Thank you!



I laughed my ass off the entire time I was responding. Sounds like one of my ex husbands lol




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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #139)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 06:11 PM

252. I'm impressed

Really. I have a way with words myself, but dayum! I'm very impressed!

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Response to lunatica (Reply #252)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 06:37 PM

258. Thanks lunatica

That cretin's post was the very first thing I saw when i logged on and clicked on MyPosts.

I honestly was laughing because I didn't think anybody actually talked like Sparta the Farta anymore except the fundies, so I thought it was a joke.

When I realized he was being completely serious, I actually felt sorry for him.

Fun times, if there's any fun to be had in this poo-slinging movement by the lowlifes






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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #139)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 06:55 PM

269. "The less you care about a sexist narcissists' feelings,the more the Goddess grows in the firmament"

I fucking LOVE this!



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Response to redqueen (Reply #269)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 07:07 PM

277. Gotta give the Goddess her props



But can you believe that crap Sparta the Farta was spewing over here? What a TOOL!

Thanks redqueen. right back

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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #277)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 07:18 PM

278. Oh you're darn tootin I can believe it...

those people are all over the manosphere, bellyaching about the good old days.

Have you ever read anything at manboobz.com? He just loves excoriating he dumbest of the dumb.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #278)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 07:48 PM

285. I will definitely check it out

sounds like fun to be had.

I love to read a good smackdown almost as much as I love to pen one myself




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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #285)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 07:53 PM

288. I hope to see many more of your excellent smackdowns in the future here.

Cause damn...

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Response to redqueen (Reply #288)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 10:13 PM

322. I got schooled two years

doing talk radio. Got death threats. I still spoke my mind.

Don't piss me off!

Lord, i wish I was a host today....




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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #139)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 10:32 AM

340. This post...

Made my ovaries tingle. And being post-menopausal, I haven't had that sensation in years. LOL Thank you for taking this sick, sick, sick fuck on.

It was called "The Patriarchy", and you chose to try get rid of it, so you are responsible for the consequences of that.

Really? Because women today are more independent of men, rape is a consequence of that? The rape threads sure have been an eye-opener.

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Response to Sparta09 (Reply #106)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 02:11 PM

157. A disciple of Daniel Amneus.

Amneus is revered by MRAs as their ideological leader.

Let's read exactly what they consider to be how to treat a woman "like a lady":

"The woman's primary contribution to the marriage is her willingness to share her reproductive life with a man and thereby enable him to have a family. "

"Patriarchal socialization is the system which converts female bitchiness into feminine charm and male violence into the constructive labor which generates the wealth of society."

"Those who have noticed the difficulty women have in speaking about what is most precious to them -- love and sex -- may also suggest that the silence is not cultural but inherent; that women, even when they know what they want, will not speak of it because they are 'secretive' or 'manipulative' or 'tricky.' They not only lack a voice, these explanations imply, they lack much more: a morality; a self; a soul. They lack patriarchal morality, civilized morality, morality which can be the basis of family life."

"Women need reminders of how they benefit from patriarchy. They need to know that breaking the rules will result in economic suffering and cause them to be de-classed"

"This withdrawal of male economic support is the best chance for restoring the male kinship system, patriarchy, and with it civilized living"

"She sees how to use the horror over rape as a means not so much to prevent rape as to undermine patriarchy."

"Until recently in rape prosecutions it was customary for the judge to read Sir Matthew Hale's rule that the jury ought to 'view the woman's testimony with caution. The accusation is one easily made and hard to refute'. No more. Feminists tantrumed at the suggestion that a woman might be untruthful, and the legal system, always their willing hand maiden, removed Sir Matthew Hale's 'commonsense admonition'."

More at:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/6396087/The-War-Against-Patriarchy-by-Dr-Daniel-Amneus

http://antimisandry.com/achievements/daniel-amneus-usa-1919-2003-a-39171.html#axzz2Dv7HWBZo

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Response to musette_sf (Reply #157)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 02:57 PM

170. Ouch

I have a family member who is an MRA, so I've heard some of their talking points, but I haven't read their web sites and didn't know most of those. Ick.

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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #102)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 01:23 PM

142. Righteous! ^5! n/t

 

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Response to Helen Reddy (Reply #142)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 01:32 PM

147. See # 139



Even more fun.

I feel so, i don't know.....POWERFUL!



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Response to NoOneMan (Reply #27)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 05:34 PM

237. alcohol?

Won't people just buy cheaper booze? Or do they already do that?

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Response to Tsiyu (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:36 PM

29. I was told today that my viewpoint re rape discussion was tantamount to an experiment

But, I paraphrase. The exact quote was "If you are so interested in seeing how the mind of a rapist works, I hope you can find some other place for your experimentation."

Was said to me straight away without a thought behind it as to who I am, or what my life experiences might be or are. It was thoughtless, and frankly, it was cruel, given my particular history.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1240174230#post27

I am not a rape apologist; I am a rape survivor. My story is not a secret, and part of it can be found at the link above, if anyone is so inclined.

There needs to be full throated discussion about these issues on DU, from all perspectives, and that includes those that may be personally distasteful. Case in point, the subject of the thread I referenced above:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1240174230#top

I appreciate this thread more than I can express. Thank you Tsiyu. K&R

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Response to Melinda (Reply #29)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:55 PM

37. Oh, I've stayed far away from Meta

so my head doesn't explode.

That's the Romper Room to me, most of the time.

I understand you wanted the OP to stand from NashvilleLefty, and part of me knows we need HONESTY, but I do feel his post was purposefully provocative and that he showed zero sensitivity or concern for the power of the words he chose to use.

NO man "has to stick it in something or he'll go crazy." Masturbation is always an option, unless one has no hands. His justifications seemed shallow and not very heartfelt, although I agree his candid admissions did show that, indeed, rape is seen as a privilege by some very rotten men.

I would have felt better had he told us he had contacted his victims and made amends. Confessing here did not lessen their shame, trauma or pain one iota, but merely was a salve for his own conscience.

My heart goes out to you. I was also a victim of rape, at a far younger age. I was a little girl, to be honest, and though I can't talk about it, I am okay with it now; other violence in my life led to my PTSD. I have no shame, guilt or pain anymore about the rape and for that I am thankful. Other victims are not so lucky. And I will fight for them and ask all to join me.

The comments to you were insensitive, I agree.

Thank you for sharing your story and thanks for your kind words

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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #37)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:15 PM

44. It's not that I wanted Nashville to stay - on a personal level he provoked a visceral reaction...

within me that could be described as 'rage'... however, the work I've done over the years has been oriented towards overcoming the anger long held. It was destructive and turned against myself. I was a cutter for a very long time... and I still pick my skin raw on occasion. Can't help it, just do.

The thing with Nashville is I think his thread presented a learning experience to examine him and his story more completely, the societal norms and mores of his youth, and the attitudes that contributed to his believing as he did then, and what he believes now. What brought him to change? I understand instant rage and the desire to remove the offending thing/object/person, but when we react so violently that we (time for over-the-top analogy) thirst for blood and demand that heads roll, we lose opportunity to learn, grow, and help prevent future violence upon other human beings.

I think there are a lot of fine young minds on DU these days... I read much potential here, but I fear that in haste to make a difference, opportunity becomes mistake, and we all lose.

One thing I keep in mind is that I have been here a very long time, and yet I have a low post count; I read, read, read. And I am most certainly part of a larger company of folks just like me. I've ofttimes left DU for long stretches because of the hateful attitudes expressed on a progressive website... others leave too. And we all lose out when we do.

You and I have more in common that you probably realize... links to my back story are on that thread, if you care to read. Just know that I know, and I care too. Millions and millions of us do.

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Response to Melinda (Reply #44)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:22 PM

76. Hey Melinda



I'm on dialup so this is part of the "Slow Thread Movement" here lol

I agree with you. I think human sexuality is very frightening for many Americans. They can joke about it but have trouble seriously discussing it comfortably.

Child molestation and rape are even more difficult to talk about, because it's one of those things you never want to have to think about.

And with so many people being victims of rape, it can be a trigger for them. Others just don't want to acknowledge it. That's what makes the few men ( and even fewer women ) who are rapists and child molesters get away with their crimes. No one wants to believe "that nice guy" is a sexual predator.

I will read more about your backstory and gladly. I appreciate yourcontributions here. I, too leave this place often. But there are so many good, caring women and men here that I don't let the few trolls and evil ones keep me from having my say. Though I agree a break is often Good Medicine.

a hug back atcha, Melinda





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Response to Melinda (Reply #29)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:05 PM

40. over teh years here, what i really learned, we all uniquely handle this experience. our way. and

each have to respect the others trigger. it is a tricky walk to make. where it was offensive to you, per your experience, you perception was the trigger to her experience.

that is what makes it so hard.

so what i try really hard to do in these situation listening to the stories, hearing each person (some men, mostly women) explain how the perceive it and process it and feel it, that even though i may not feel the same, i GOTTA respect and feel empathy, validate the others experience.

nashville thread literally made me sick, my stomach hurt, and i was shaking, from a physical reaction. how i took the post was different from many others. though i am going to stand strong with what i pulled from the poster (his reason for posting) i respect and understand the other person has equal value in their perception.

but it all bottomlines to respect each and every persons unique experience and take on a devastating issue.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #40)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:22 PM

47. I read your pain, redqueen's pain, others pain on that thread, sea... I hadn't posted, was...

waiting for my pain to subside while I composed my thoughts to Nashville. If there is one thing I know for certain, it's that despite our common experiences, the way we handle them are different for each of us (although you and I share the same perspective in the instant case). I also know that if I ever saw you or anyone else flailing (like THAT will ever happen) within a thread like that, I'd be there in a nanosecond and have your back.

You inspire ME. I hope you know that, seabeyond.

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Response to Melinda (Reply #47)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:38 PM

55. you know.

back atcha. this is the one issue we must have patience with all of us.

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Response to Tsiyu (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:39 PM

31. The decent men, which most are...

should be just as upset about this as are we women. Most men have females in their lives that they care about. It boggles my mind that some of the DU men are throwing themselves a pity party and claiming to be 'victims'.

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Response to StarryNite (Reply #31)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:53 PM

35. I had a friend who was raped.

 


By three guys.

Two of them got paid 'visits'. The third died before I could track him down.

I don't know who's pretending to be victims, but I can name a couple.

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Response to The Doctor. (Reply #35)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:00 PM

39. Well, I applaud your defense of your friend

Rape is such a shaming crime. It shames and demeans and dehumanizes the victim - whether the victim is male or female. One would hope your friend could see justice in the courts, but as my above post shows, justice is only one fourth effective.

Beating up the guys was one response, but rape is so prevalent, we need new solutions to teach - as the CDC suggests - BEFORE it happens

WE all need to do all we can to stop the epidemic of rape.

You did your part then, but there is a lot more work to do.

I hope in the coming year we can have some productive threads about what we can all do, without some people thinking they are being singled out due to their gender.

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Response to The Doctor. (Reply #35)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:12 PM

43. Good for you!

You are a hero in my opinion!

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Response to The Doctor. (Reply #35)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:20 PM

46. great, lets all send assassins in after we are raped, because that helps you feel better about it!

Us.. it doesn't help much at all.

You're the one pretending to be a victim with the "all men are veiwed as rapist" BS down thread.

But guess what- we're not indulging your pity party ever again! I'll send you off to cry in your beer with a big Boo Hoo.
HTH!!

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Response to The Doctor. (Reply #35)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:30 PM

51. I do have to ask how this cool story is more credible than the statistics in the OP. n/t

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Response to antigone382 (Reply #51)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:27 PM

78. I dont find it credible, practical or laudable in any way. Street justice is the answer?

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #78)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 01:00 AM

98. I'm amazed his alleged "friend" didn't accuse him of being a rapist



the way he says "all" the women on DU - and all those dad-blamed statistics - are doing.

Like you said, we don't need street justice, We need law enforcement, legislators and courts to take this crime seriously.

We don't need Bubba going out killing.

And we need education. That poster should be one of the first students.....but the way he acts around here, I suspect he'd just throw spitballs and pull the other classmates' hair.



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Response to The Doctor. (Reply #35)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:01 PM

65. BRAVO!

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Response to The Doctor. (Reply #35)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 07:41 AM

112. Well then, guess we don't need an open discussion of rape

as long as such alpha-males like you and your friend are protecting us?

As a man, and a rape survivor, I find your post moronic. It doesn't help me shit if the guy who raped me is now dead.

What would help me, and countless others (especially the female victims) is addressing the fact that certain subests of our culture condone certain forms of rape and are hell-bent on derailing any honest discussion of it.

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Response to Democracyinkind (Reply #112)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 01:25 PM

143. many rape victim do not report out of fear the men they love will go to jail for doing something

stupid like this.
WTF is wrong here that people are applauding vigilantes? I guess it;s that so many other guys offer no support at all.

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Response to Tsiyu (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:46 PM

33. After having

 

my posts alerted and then hidden, what can I say? So I'll just quote:

"In one sample of college-aged men, one in sixteen men admitted to raping women they either knew were too intoxicated to give consent, or they used physical force. Among these men who readily admitted to rape but had never been arrested or convicted, they committed an average of six rapes each and proudly described their sexual exploits to the interviewer (Lisak and Miller 2002)."

I believe this says it all. I would imagine that the rapist told many of his buddies about how proud he was of being a rapist. Did any of his buddies do ANYTHING?

A few years ago, after reading how 'progressive' males regard the rape of women, I bought a gun. And I have a permit to carry it. I look at this as my attempt to level the playing field.

I am a human being and I deserve to protect myself from rapists and anyone who assaults me. And you'll be glad to know, I haven't had to shoot anyone.

I would be interested in seeing statistics on how many males leave their girlfriends/fiances/wives after these women in their lives were raped.

And just so we all understand the meaning of rape (as Akin made obvious), only women can become pregnant, not the males. So there is, IMHO, a major difference between the rape of a woman and the rape of a male, because of that reason. Never mind that the average male is stronger than the average woman. Are you going to call me a BIGOT AGAIN??? Be my guest. These are facts. Reality.

Thank you, Tsiyu, for an excellent OP. I am sending it to my email address so I can keep it forever and pass it along when someone needs an education regarding RAPE.

I think of all the times when I was young and I didn't go to a party or a movie or simply for a walk because I was afraid of The Rape Culture. And it has gotten so much worse. And no one can tell me that the legalization of pron has not had an affect....it has confirmed most vehemently that women are NOT human....we're just something a male uses to release his tension.

May the patriarchy suffer while it dies.

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Response to femrap (Reply #33)


Response to The Doctor. (Reply #36)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:58 PM

38. A lot of these statistics are from Government funded studies.

Do you have a better and more unbiased set of data? If so deliver; if not, I will go with the best information we have.

Also, please point out where anyone on DU has claimed that all men are rapists.

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Response to The Doctor. (Reply #36)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:10 PM

42. We don't care enough about your hurt feelings to derail this conversation. Go start your own pity

thread. By now!

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Response to The Doctor. (Reply #36)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:19 PM

45. Okay I'm going to get profound here

One thing I know about some people ( often men ) is that they want to "fix" things and they feel frustrated when they can't make things right.

For example, there are some people who, when you tell them about a problem, can't just listen, but feel they have to make it right. They get almost angry when they can't do so.

Are men feeling some guilt over these figures because they feel helpless to stop them? Are they feeling guilt because the problem is far more pervasive than they ever imagined?

I'm just trying to understand why you would claim that statistics turn men into rapists. The statistics pretty well have shown only a small percentage of men commit all these rapes. So don't get pissed at the statistics - that's what Republicans do when faced with global warming, etc. They try to demonize Al Gore and plenty of climate scientists by saying the statistics make it look worse than it is. That's a game for cowards and phonies, not Democrats.

Be pissed at those evil men. Don't be pissed at women. Be pissed at those evil men. Don't be pissed at a discussion of rape. Be pissed at those men.

None of what I posted above says "all men are rapists." How you extrapolate that from these studies, I would love for you to explain....


if you think you can.

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Response to The Doctor. (Reply #36)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:48 PM

59. did anyone say all men

No, even though you are trying to make it sound that way.

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Response to The Doctor. (Reply #36)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:53 PM

62. "Bullshit stats?"

Care to back that up with some stats of your own?

Or are your feelings just too hurt?

Sorry if it's so distasteful for you to have to read statistics on rape.

Then again, considering how many of us are the people, the actual human beings behind those "stats," maybe I'm not so sorry after all.

"What these bullshit stats will do to us."

So it really is all about you then, isn't it?

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Response to femrap (Reply #33)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:09 PM

41. I love you, woman


It does suck to be afraid. Many men don't understand why women must view every strange male in their surroundings as a potential attacker, but then when we are attacked, its: "Why weren't you more cautious?" It's like walking a tightrope while someone's throwing bricks at you. Can't win no matter what you do.

A lot of people wonder why I keep horses when I am so dirt poor. But those two mares out there were two of three mares who protected me from a would-be rapist. It's a long story, but the horses actually made a triangle around me and wouldn't let me go! After that, I said I would keep them til their death or mine even if it meant poverty ( and I had to spend you MO on hay and have been too ashamed to tell you but that's why ) I will do anything to keep them from ever going to to a horrible death. One is dead now, but I know they would protect me again. I'm poor as shit, but I trust those horses more than almost all people.

And I also sleep with a 12 gauge and a pistol, with the door barricaded. Come on in!

It's hard not to get angry about this when so many people try to hide the issue. It's human nature. Far easier to talk about puppies and unicorns and our favorite TV show and how Republicans SUCK. But we absolutely better do something.

The mental and physical health of American women and men depends on it.

You know I love you






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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #41)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:36 PM

53. I love

 

you, too. And you take very good care of those mares!!! Whatever it takes.

I'm still blown away by the misogynists on this site. I alerted on the 'taxing of date rape drugs' and his comments are A-OK according to DU 'people':

YOUR COMMENTS:

Just read it. A newbie....please ban him. Obviously he is a misogynist...or is that OK?

JURY RESULTS

A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Sun Dec 2, 2012, 12:56 PM, and voted 3-3 to LEAVE IT ALONE.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT and said: The post is idiotic. The alerter, unless psychic, doesn't know if the poster is a misogynist or not. Not every idiot hates women!
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Brash, discomfiting and intensely ironic, but not a violation of the standards as I see it.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: It's a weird post but it seems to me it's meant as sarcasm.

Thank you.

#4 and #6 are just priceless....so the post stays. I guess I'll have to be more 'sarcastic' so my posts aren't Hidden.
And people wonder why I have a gun. People think he is being 'sarcastic?' How stupid are 'people.'

I think I'll be taking a respite from DU....the cruelty and stupidity is on the level of repugnants.

Take care.

If you need anything, you have my email, right?

After all the comments about Rape from the Repugnants, I thought women could bring the issue of RAPE to the forefront and possibly get some justice (what an obscure concept) and put some rapists in jail. Well, how wrong could I be??? Gee, maybe we could at least get the DNA Kits tested within a month??? While in that month the rapist walks around free only to rape more.

May the 'people' on this site who think rape is something they don't have to worry about.....Karma is an ass-biter.

good night!

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Response to femrap (Reply #53)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:45 PM

58. He Did have one post hidden - for being a homophobe I guess


Whatever his comment had to do with this thread, cannot fathom.

But that one's an ulcer puffer. I decided to kill him with kindness and understanding lol

Those kind want to get the thread derailed, and as my daughter just informed me "that's one of the most juvenile, sexist posters on all of DU, with almost no redeeming qualities." LOL she made me laugh.

She's smart, that one.

And yes, Karma IS an ass biter.



( Thanks for being so kind to me when nearly no one else was. You know what I mean. )


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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #58)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:32 PM

79. I appreciate and love you, your mares and femrap, too. Thanks.

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Response to freshwest (Reply #79)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:54 PM

87. This calls for a grouphug

and a couple equines



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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #87)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 12:22 AM

93. Perfect! Right back at you!

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Response to femrap (Reply #53)


Response to femrap (Reply #33)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 01:12 PM

138. "May the patriarchy suffer while it dies."

I hope that the increasing rape culture is a last gasp of a dying patriarchy & not a patriarchy increasing in strength. The video in this thread gives me some hope: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021911613

As a woman who takes public transportation & also networks with technical groups that often meet at night, there is always a little bit of . . . fear? No, not quite fear, but a definite discomfort at being out alone at night.

Here's an example. Last week I was going to cross the street at a light to get to my bus stop but I saw a group of three men walking toward that same corner, so I turned right & walked up a block. I crossed the street at the next light & then walked back the direction I'd come. The men had walked on, but I purposely avoided them because I was a woman alone at night.

To all the men who scoff at rape culture, I ask you these questions:


If you were walking alone at night & a group of three women was walking toward you, would you feel concerned for your safety?

If those three women were three men, would your feelings change?

When you see a woman out alone at night, are you aware that she is probably very uncomfortable & maybe even downright afraid?

Would you advise your daughter to assume that the men she encounters are stand up guys?



This is what we live with every day. We don't know which of you are the rapists. I don't understand why some guys are so upset with women about this. It's a few bad apples among yourselves that are making your whole group look bad. Logical behavior to me dictates that you take them to task, not us.

If you're not a rapist, then please, open your eyes to this cesspool we call a culture. Look at the media from a different perspective, not just the perspective of male privilege.

Rape culture is real & it's getting worse.

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Response to CrispyQ (Reply #138)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 01:59 PM

153. Great post....

 

and it was your 15,000th!!!

I think patriarchy is taking its last breath. And we know that when the end is coming, that's when the meanest behavior is exhibited.

Another thing I have never understood....how is rape of a woman by a man not a HATE crime. Or by a hetero man to a gay man??? If I recall, since the young gay man from WY died (I'm sorry I can't remember his name...he was tied to a fence), it was declared a HATE crime. Women are raped and murdered all the time and nothing. All part of patriarchy.

Now go watch this and laugh:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/101783663

DU can be a very depressing place for women. So I watch something funny to feel better. I wonder if the DU dudes have to do that? Hmmmmmmmmmmm.

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Response to femrap (Reply #153)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 01:16 PM

341. I hope you're right about it being the patriarchy's last breath.

It certainly is ugly. Hopefully someone somewhere will take away some good from these threads.

Thanks for the Lewis Black! That was good!

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Response to CrispyQ (Reply #138)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 02:00 PM

154. Awesome Post CrispyQ

And great questions.

I just can't understand why any DECENT man would not want to help eradicate rape.

The ones who say they shouldnt have to do anything are like frickin' toddlers.

But from the troll's post above, I suppose they are some of the Patriarchal holdouts ( whom I personally conquered with my majical ladyparts see post 139 ) ...so they are sulking and pouting because they can't CONTROL wymmins, but we're asking them to PROTECT us?

How dare we! See, we trade our autonomy and freedom for protection. To these guys, either we submit or they rape us.

Sick fucks.

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Response to femrap (Reply #33)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 06:59 PM

272. "May the patriarchy suffer while it dies."

Amen.

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Response to Tsiyu (Original post)


Response to Tsiyu (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:23 PM

48. It should be us against them...

All of us. All of us regardless of gender who are not rapists should be against rapists. This is not anti-men, it's anti-rapist. And if you've never raped anyone, you should be jumping on board with us not feeling sorry for yourself because that is insulting to rape victims.

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Response to StarryNite (Reply #48)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:35 PM

82. Hear hear! ( or here here, can never remember )



I just heard the sound of a hammer hitting a nail on the head!

If someone thinks their discomfort over the discussion of rape is more of a tragedy than that suffered by rape victims - they are what we call narcissists, huh?

Thanks for your post.


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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #82)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 02:32 AM

103. Thank you

for this thread! Yes, there is seriously something wrong with a person who would try to twist this all around the way some people have done.

Right back atcha with that hug.

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Response to Tsiyu (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:37 PM

54. What I do not understand is why any man who is not a rapist

is immediately defensive whenever the subject is broached. Maybe it's because this very sensitive, painful and personal subject puts
many men in an uncomfortabe position. Rather than learining from people who have researched the subject of rape and those who
have unselfishly shared personal and painful stories, it's easier for them go into denial. If that is the case, they can and perhaps
should refrain from entering the discussion rather blundering into the conversation and making indefensible assertions. Seeing an
issue from another's perspective is the beginning of understanding that issue. If one refuses to do that, they will never understand or
have empathy for that person.

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Response to UtahLib (Reply #54)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:51 PM

61. or...

 

Maybe folks don't like being accused - via implication - of a horrific crime.

Also, using the "you have to be with us, or you are as bad as THEM" is a guilt-trip game.

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Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #61)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:14 PM

70. we don't care about your feelings about what you imagine is implied. Not enough to get OT for.

We're here to discuss OUR concerns (staying OT) without having the conversation revolve around men who dislike the conversation.

The vast majority of these threads are hijacked by men.
We'd like to remind you, this thread is not about men who don't like to discuss what this thread is about. Because that only serves to derail the conversation - a violation of DU rules, so please stop. Thanks!!

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #70)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 09:33 AM

121. someone asked why some men

 

"are so defensive about the subjects, if they are innocent..."

I was merely replying.

The chip on your shoulder must be heavy.

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Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #121)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 12:08 PM

127. dozens of men come to these threads, only wanting to talk about their feelings

instead of the topic at hand.

Do a search and see. How many threads did they derail?
Then maybe you'll get why I don't care about guys who think their icky feelings are more worthy of discussion.
They are cowards. They make this all about themselves. They are part of the problem.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #127)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 12:27 PM

129. O-kay then...

 

It's starting to sound like you're okay with presumed guilt, as opposed to presumed innocence. That's a dangerous route to go down.

Also, the idea that men (in general) need some sort of "don't rape" course is fairly insulting. It presumes that "Men" are either too dumb to know any better, or we are naturally rapacious. That's stereotyping.

The whole "You have to join our cause, or you are as bad as THEM" guarantees that many WON'T join your cause. It doesn't mean they support the abusers, it could mean instead that they don't like being hectored by pushy people.

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Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #129)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 01:04 PM

135. Oh Bob- was this ever NOT ABOUT YOU in your mind? Because I'm not hear to make you feel better

about life on planet earth. And that's a completely bullshit expectation for you to have. Because you are telling me your feelings are more important than women's health and safety. You have publicly stated your ego is paramount here. Yes, you did.

Go to one of the pity party threads where you can commiserate with other men who want to derail the conversation. Your feelings are OT and unwelcome.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #135)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 01:08 PM

136. so...

 

If a person speaks up about potential mob action, they are saying their feelings are hurt? You seem to have the black/white fallacy down to a "T." Also, I'll ask you to stop trying to put words in my mouth.

They're right, you ARE in attack mode.

As this is a general thread, I believe that I'm allowed to speak my mind.

It's a bullshit expectation for you to think someone would help you, given your attitudes.

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Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #136)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 01:18 PM

140. To you- Not putting YOUR feelings FIRST is ATTACKING? Don't you see how screwed up that is? G'Bye.


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Response to bettyellen (Reply #140)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 01:21 PM

141. right...

 

Bettyellen... May I politely suggest that you don't want conversations/discussions, you just want scratching posts.

When you denigrate people, they generally won't go out of their way to help you.

I hope you can find peace in your life...

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Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #141)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 01:30 PM

145. Bob, when someone is trying to discuss an issue important to THEM, why is your first reaction about

YOU, and not at all the subject at hand.

I'm not losing anything by gaining your disapproval, you put yourself as above me from the get go.
Just clearing the worthless clutter.

Please go away. Because this thread is NOT about YOUR feelings. Deal with it without imposing your unhelpful, unwelcome presence on us.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #145)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 01:47 PM

150. sigh...

 

When someone is discussing an issue important to THEM, they should also watch out for charges of defamation.

This is a public thread, "ma'am," and we all have the same rights.

From your continued commentary to me and others, I feel positively ennobled by your showing of disapproval.

You are clearly in an attack mode. Why is that?

It seems like you feel that YOUR feelings are more worthy to discuss than OTHER's feelings. Shades of Animal Farm, yes?

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Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #150)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 02:07 PM

155. Rape is more common than Smoking in the US Bob, how do you feel about that?

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #155)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 02:19 PM

160. If true, I think that's horrific...

 

1.) I haven't seen the reliability and concurrent validity of these studies. For that matter, I have no idea how many people currently smoke (Also, Smoke what?)
2.) Doing the "this horrible thing is happening" is a step in Monroe's Motivated Sequence, a well known propaganda tool.
3.) Holding "don't rape" classes presupposes men are either Dumb or naturally evil. That's stereotyping. Why would someone want to help a group that presupposes that they are dumb or evil? If you state you think that someone is a thief, why should they help you catch a thief?

Witch Hunts are ugly things...

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Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #160)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 02:26 PM

161. Bob, the horrible thing ARE happening- tks for confirming you offer no support, just criticism,

and whining about your little hurt feelings.
If you recall, Bob, I just can't put your feelings about this as a priority. That would be foolish- you obviously don;t care to listen or believe in what women are telling you.
And stats, all of a sudden aren;t good enough, LOL. This is where you DO become part of the problem.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #161)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 02:44 PM

165. Like I said...

 

1.) I'd want confirmation in re rapes above smoking. That's called fact-checking. (I'd want confirmation as I CAN'T shank that many people... someone would notice a pattern...)
2.) You keep trying to make this about little ole you facing against the bad ole overly sensitive men-folk, who obviously are all about the keeping the secret.
3.) Your rhetoric structure is essentially: "I have and am broadcasting the true knowledge! Any objection to any part of my message is not to be listened to! I shall fight it!" In Pagan circles, we call that the Pagan Hierophant Problem. It's pretty much an emergent behavior for most high energy groups. By basically talking about ME (A Geek Named Bob), you are calling attention to YOU (the brave little oppressed person, bravely fighting the nasty thing).
4.) Your current message of "Don't Rape" is pretty much guaranteed to alienate your target audience. Instead of trying to hector your audience, How about a diverse group moving a message of "Real Men wait until yes." Otherwise, you run into the instinct of Non Serviam.

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Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #165)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 02:55 PM

168. It's cute how you're suggesting "fun" man friendly slogans so I don't alienate the "target" ...

And yet you don;t see how you've made this about catering to you in particular and men in general the whole time. LOL.
You don't find ANY irony in this patriarchal bullshit?

it's not about your feelings,me, or your pagans Bob.
No one wants your lectures. A I will not google stats for you- you should be doing that instead of lecturing womens how to sweeting up to attract male attention. Moronic regressive crap.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #168)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 03:06 PM

173. you miss the point...again...

 

you are trying to get a message across. No one has to listen to you, other than to obey consent.

If YOU want a group to listen, YOU have to tailor your message.

Otherwise, they are just going to point and laugh.

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Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #173)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 03:39 PM

182. I don't have to soften my message for real men, Bob, just for the ones like you who demand pity.

and demand I do more research. Stop pretending you ever gave a fuck about anything about your delicate sensitivities.
It's bullshit that you demand we show you it;s a huge problem, then soften the message to something positive and happy that has man appeal. You're not a child we're peddling chocolate milk to, stop acting like one.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #182)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 03:49 PM

186. May I suggest that you're projecting a tad...

 

YOU are the one who demands message conformity. That's childish.
YOU are the one trying to shift blame for propaganda tactics. That's childish.
YOU are the one demanding other's do your bidding. That's childish.

I obviously struck a nerve there...

No one has to listen to Bettyellen, unless it involves a consent transaction...

frightening, isn't it?

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Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #160)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 05:23 PM

231. We tell people not to drive drunk

or to let their friends drive drunk, and I have NEVER heard complaints about how such messages are stereotyping all drivers or holding them out to be "Dumb or evil." Certainly no one has ever suggested that spreading the mantra "don't drive drunk" is somehow demeaning to those who might hear it.

But when we tell men a) not to rape and b) not to tolerate those who do, all of a sudden we get all these guys telling us how hurt they are, how horrible it is to be stereotyped, how turned off they are by this simple admonition. Hell, if we simply post statistics on rape, we get the same response. I wonder--if I started an OP about drunk driving statistics, do you think I'd get push back from drivers offended at being stereotyped as drunks?

Interesting side-bar to that: we tell people--"don't drive drunk." The emphasis is on stopping the individual who might commit the crime. We don't tell them, "Here's what you should do to avoid getting hit by a drunk driver" at least not with anything like the same intensity. Contrast that with what usually passes for "rape awareness education."

"Witch hunts are ugly things."

Not nearly as ugly as rape in real life.

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Response to thucythucy (Reply #231)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 05:40 PM

242. so we are playing one ugly-ship?

 

Driving drunk doesn't presuppose the listener is an evil beast, or likely to be one. Suggesting that all men need to take a course to stop rape is:

1.) Stereotyping. Would you say all folks in the American South should be required to take a class in modern urban black poets? Should all Italians take a class on avoiding being in the Mafia?
2.) Inspires a complete loss of trust among young men. That message basically presupposes college aged men are too dumb to understand the background laws of this country, or that - somehow - a great evil (rape) can be averted via a good rhetorical argument spoken in an assertive voice. If you distrust people, they will descend to your expectations.
3.) It begs the question of Agency. Why does someone have the right to steer men's (as a gender, in classes, or even individually) education? This is Civil Rights territory.
4.) The Bandwagon mob-appeal gets easy to attach others classes. "This issue is too important to argue over personal agency" is the motto of many a totalitarian.

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Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #242)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 04:34 PM

342. Ah me, where to begin?

"Driving drunk doesn't presuppose the listener is an evil beast, or likely to be one."

I'm not even sure what that sentence means. Driving drunk doesn't "presuppose" anything of any "listener." It's a crime, which used to be treated far more casually than it is today. After thousands of people had been killed and tens of thousands maimed by drunk drivers, a grassroots campaign (remember Mothers Against Drunk Driving?) began pushing for harsher penalties, more stringent enforcement, and a public media campaign--including mandatory presentations at high schools and colleges--on how drunk driving is illegal, and how friends and peers needed to act to stop it. In fact, you can still find PSAs with just this message all over the airwaves. "Friends don't let friends drive drunk." Never did I hear anyone express outrage that those receiving this message were being characterized as "dumb or evil," that to broadcast such a message, or to require teens to attend a lecture on the topic, somehow presupposed that all viewers and all teens are drunks. Not ever.

If, on the other hand, what you meant to say is "drunk driving isn't held in the same odium as rape" you may be right, although--knowing people with a family member killed by a drunk driver, and knowing other people disabled for life by them--I'd hardly say that drunk drivers are on any body's top ten most wonderful people in the world list. Certainly, a DUI conviction is generally not considered prime material for one's vitae. Would YOU want to be known in your community as a drunk driver?

How on earth you get to southerners (presumably white--though there ARE African-American southerners, you know? A bit of stereotyping there on your part?) being forced to read "urban Black poetry" is beyond me. Really, a total non sequitur.

"Should all Italians take a class on avoiding being in the Mafia?" Actually, the Italian government and Italian volunteers do run programs to educate Italian youth--especially in Sicily--on the destructive impact of the Mafia on young lives. This I suppose is roughly equivalent to programs we have here for urban youth on avoiding gang life. I suppose you object to these as well. Really, there's no end to what you'll find objectionable, once you begin arguing that men shouldn't be given information on what rape is, and told not to do it.

"It begs the question of Agency. Why does someone have the right to steer men's (as a gender, in classes, or even individually) education? This is Civil Rights territory." First off, I would have no problem having a similar session conducted for women as well--since sexual crimes can and are also committed by women (though the overwhelming majority are committed by men). As for having the "right" to steer people individually or as group into classes, orientation sessions, or what have you--please. In undergraduate school I was required to attend a three day orientation session (including a session on "responsible drinking"). As a grad student I had to attend a lecture on ethics in research, and another one on plagiarism--what it is, and what the penalties would be if one were caught. I suppose I should have walked out in a huff, right? "Oh my God, graduate students are all being stereotyped as plagiarists! Lordy Lordy Lordy, you're telling me I have no ethics! And undergraduates are all being categorized as binge drinkers!!!"

Finally, your attempt to link rape education to totalitarianism is simply extraordinary. Yeah, telling people--men in particular-not to rape, requiring them to attend a lecture on rape and sexual assault, all this is just one step away from Stalinism. What's next, a reference to "feminazis"?

Here's my take on what's been happening on so many of these threads. Men mostly don't think about rape, certainly not the way women are forced to. They don't generally plan their schedules, their socializing, their lives with the thought of rape at the back of their mind. To NOT have to think about rape is in fact a form of male privilege. And what we're asking is for you to give up that privilege, which of course you'd rather not do. So instead of honestly engaging the issue, you throw up all this crap about your hurt feelings and all this quasi-Libertarian nonsense about "Agency" with a capital A.

Living your life as a rape survivor, or having to constantly, on some level, be aware that you are a potential target of rape, is its own form of totalitarianism. Except, unlike your hyperbolic rhetorical flourish, this tyranny exists in the here and now, and impacts the lives of millions of girls and women in real life, in real time.

Put your hurt feelings aside for a moment, and consider what that means to the women in your life.

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Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #141)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 02:28 PM

162. Awww let me get out my violin



What you are saying is that some anonymous posters asking you to care about the EPIDEMIC of rape are hurting your little bitty feelings that are deep down inside you.

Even just mentioning rape in a thread is accusing all men of being rapists. How illogical! How sociopathic! How absolutley mind-boggling. But you provide an example to all the other DUers of how issues important to women have been shut down for generations. Demonize the messenger, make it all about you, and then maybe nobody will discuss THE ACTUAL TOPIC OF OUR NATIONAL RAPE EPIDEMIC!

Nobody is asking you to read any of these threads. If they hurt your delicate sensibilities and make you feel like a rapist, trash the threads.

BECAUSE THIS DISCUSSION IS NOT ABOUT YOU.

You want to MAKE it about you, but it IS NOT ABOUT YOU.



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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #162)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 02:53 PM

167. STRUCTURE TRANSLATION

 

attempt at snark
attempt at cover, redirecting earlier implied statement
false equivalency
return to Monroe's point number two (Repeat problem message)
projection of actions on others

There you go, fixed it for you...

I don't believe you have the right to create the conditions for a witch hunt.

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Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #167)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 02:58 PM

171. Translation? Bob: "Boo hoo, I don't like what this implies about men in general" Me: "Tough shit"

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #171)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 03:07 PM

174. no... I won't help with with that last nail, bettyellen-christ...

 

You aren't very good at this propaganda thing, are you...

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Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #174)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 03:34 PM

179. you deny anything can be done, and toss out helpful slogan rewrites to appeal to men...

and then you throw in a demand that I research MORE stats for you, because you're not sure there is a problem.
it's pretty transparent you don't feel like engaging, and you'd like to blame women for that.

Please don't kid yourself that you were in any way open minded or helpful.
You came here to lick your wounds and were disturbed not to find any comfort from me. Men here hate me because I don't indulge their sadness. Men who don't give a single fuck about this issue coming in droves, asking for pity. It's hilarious.
We're on to your bullshit.




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Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #167)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 03:24 PM

177. A male poster above made the patriarchy comment

and yes, when you whine, pout and stomp around these threads claiming YOU are the victim, I will snark at you,

You don't care about the topic one bit. You care about derailing the topic.

I think that is sickening and sad.

You've got nothing to back up your claims. It is necessary to educate men - because obviously from the studies showing young men's horrific attitudes about rape, it's pretty well proven that all you great guys have not seemed to teach a great many of them that rape is always wrong.

We need to educate young men especially, so that they don't have any "murky" ideas and so that they feel emboldened to speak up when other men are being demeaning to others. We need to educate men on how to protect one another and women.

Saying this in no way says they are all potential criminals nor does it say they are criminal enablers.

It says that we all have a long way to go and we must use every tool in our arsenal to combat the epidemic of rape.

I am amazed at the people who think their fellow males are all stupid tools who can't learn anything, and more amazed at the ones who think all men already know it all.

I believe men are the same as women. They can use as much education as we can develop. I have a lot more faith in men than you do, obviously.

And if all men already "know the right thing to do" why is rape growing and becoming more insidious?

One in 16 college men has admitted to committing date rape and you don't think that's a big enough percentage to develop some education programs for young men? We had a poster admit to this behavior this week, and HE now knows it was wrong. Imagine if he'd had some classes back when he was a young man? Might have saved a lot of his victims a while lot of pain. But you think men are too stupid to grow up and that's an indication of your disdain for your own gender.

It is you who appears to have no confidence in men's ability to learn, and you are basically saying you're willing to live with men acting like animals because there's "nothing we can do about it."

I call bullshit.

We fight with all we've got to end rape if we REALLY CARE.

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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #177)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 03:36 PM

180. Yeah, offering to rewirte the poster or snippy new slogans...all while giving the stats the fish eye

demanding we hand over more info before they care. Who do they think they are fooling?

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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #177)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 03:42 PM

183. and there it is...

 

Social engineering via "education..."

Who are you to decide what I "should" learn? I'm over the age of majority, and judge competent by local, state, and federal authorities. Who are you to usurp my agency, so long as I obey laws and consent?

and there's that "if we REALLY CARE" we'll all do (insert name of action) without dissent."

There's where the witch hunt really gets rolling.

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Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #183)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 03:48 PM

185. Ha ha, asking you to support advocacy usurps your civil rights now, does it? Hilarious stuff.

But hardly new to rape advocacy activists. you guys, you have a million reasons not to help... and three million suggestions o how not to hurt your feelings while you're not helping. We're not your Mommy, Bob.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #185)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 04:04 PM

192. yup...

 

Bandwagon approach with attached pop-psych pieces...

broad-brush stereotype of others...

More propaganda.

Shame on you.

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Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #183)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 03:50 PM

187. Witch hunt....really? Jeez Louise

I think your attitude is defeatist, I think you resent being asked to do anything to educate yourself, and I think the fact that you reference yourself as if you are some sort of "victim" by being asked to help society out shows that you are perhaps a narcissist.

However, you are completely entitled to your opinion.

I just happen to think your opinion is bullshit, and that's my right.


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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #187)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 03:58 PM

190. but he offered tips on how to appeal to men! LOL.

so helpful!

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #190)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 04:05 PM

193. Pretty amazing



the level of FAILSAUCE in those arguments.

It's brimming over and dripping all over the posts. LOL

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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #187)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 04:06 PM

195. being told you "should" take an extra class is hardly a small insult...

 

and you still haven't explained why YOU think you have control over MY agency. That's a key question.

I think we've got a mutual non-admiration society...

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Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #195)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 04:12 PM

198. Wow, Bob. You still think this is all about YOU, huh? Pegged you right from the first post.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #198)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 04:16 PM

202. As I pegged you, dear...

 

YOU seem to think that YOU have the right to control other people's actions. That makes YOU dangerous.

You seem to believe that, after keeping consent laws active, YOU have the right to control another person's actions.

You really seem to want to tell others what to do, and then are surprised when they laugh at you.

bluntly, you are childish and have but a small bag of rhetorical tricks. Shame on you.

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Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #202)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 04:34 PM

207. Again, supporting advocacy has NADA to do with these paranoid fantasies of yours.

Women making suggestions is equal to wanting to control YOU. LOL... no wonder you came here looking for pity.
You got it, but not for the reason you wanted.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #207)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 04:50 PM

214. oh good... some pity by a person who can't argue her point.

 

Advocating the "necessity" of classes would suggest you're willing to abrogate rights. Such as the right to say "NO" to said classes. The whole "Mere feelings on the part of any one male member isn't as important as them hearing US" is the start of theocracies and witch hunts. Civil Rights are important...

As long as you are going to talk via bad logic structures...

tell me, oh muse...
-How shall I file my next flight plan?
-Can I carry over a loss from a previous year to an adjacent year?
-What about shielding material for protective suits, when I build that safety suit? Thoughts?

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Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #195)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 04:29 PM

206. Poor wounded you. It's totally about you



All about you, you, you.

Nobody told you personally that you had to do shit and you know it.

Someone expressed an opinion about the necessity of classes for men, and all of a sudden you're imagining the feminists breaking down your door with a battering ram, forcing you out of your home and MAKING you take a class?

Is that a BIIIIIIIIIG stretch or what?

Get over yourself. taking things that personally is a sign of severe narcissism.


( But when the mandatory classes form soon, we will be knocking down your door. We are legion. Expect us )

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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #206)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 04:46 PM

212. Schopenhauer's argument style number 8 (I believe)

 

Blow up what your opponent said to completely ridiculous proportions.

"necessity of classes for men" is pretty much saying that they shouldn't have the right to say "NO" to those classes.

Civil Rights and the rules of evidence are the only things keeping away the lynch mobs.

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Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #212)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 04:54 PM

215. Has congress introduced a bill or something?

You blew the argument to ridiculous proportions, not I.

Acting like an opinion that one man holds and that many of us agree with - that men need classes on rape - means that somehow soon you'll be forced to do anything is just pure unadulterated HYPERBOLE, poutrage and beneath the sensibilites of anyone who wants to pass themselves off as some sort of "intellectual."

It's just dumb.

And why didn;t I see any posts from you on the 1000 BILLS CONGRESS INTRODUCED LAST YEAR TRYING TO TELL me and every other woman WHAT TO DO with OUR VAGINAS? Not your problem as long as it's wymmins losing their rights to control their reproductive organs?

No concern for that, just as you have no concern for rape victims, who are also MALES in some cases?

Not your problem, I guess, as I've been told enough times.


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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #215)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 04:58 PM

217. seriously unhinged selfish shit. Is this Libertarian Underground where education = poison? LOL

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #217)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 05:03 PM

221. no...

 

Just a place where civil rights seem to be highly malleable...

WHO are YOU to determine what I MUST learn? That's kind of a critical question for agency.

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Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #221)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 05:13 PM

225. calm down Bob, most here think education is a good thing.

And I totally get it, your bruised ego and paranoid fantasies about a loss of liberty (through education) are a great concern to you.
It's just that the rest of us don;t give a fuck about either of those things.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #225)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 05:20 PM

227. Getting an education is great, I recommend it

 

Having one FORCED on you, with presumptions of social guilt, is indoctrination.

Not cool

I understand... you want to run things, and you're insecure about just announcing it.

The question isn't if education is a good thing, it's why YOU should be allowed to make educational choices for ME, regardless of my wishes? That's YOU asking for a captive audience. That violates civil rights.

Why should I be forced to listen to your course, when I could be learning EE?

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Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #221)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 05:21 PM

228. Once again, Bob

all about YOU.

Don't you ever get tired of yourself?

You seem to fascinate yourself.

The rest of us are rather bored with your self-absorbed crap.

Please link to anyone saying they will force you, personally to do anything.

If you can't then you are just trying to again, derail discussion

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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #228)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 05:25 PM

232. Necessity...

 

ne·ces·si·ty/nəˈsesətē/
Noun:

The fact of being required or indispensable: "the necessity for law and order".
Unavoidability: "the necessity of growing old".

required past participle, past tense of re·quire (Verb)
Verb:

Need for a particular purpose; depend on for success or survival.


That would suggest that you aren't advocating for an OPTIONAL course.

That IS central to the discussion. When discussing choice issues, Civil Rights is always an issue.

Why do YOU have the right to tell men what to learn? That's a Civil Rights issue.

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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #215)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 05:00 PM

220. yup...

 

Black or white fallacy... It's "You're with US or Against US." Shame on you.

Now you're attaching other articles on other issues, and implying that I'm FOR the laws trying to control women. Shame on you for doubling down on the Black/White fallacy.

As to my intellectual capability, it's fine. Thank you for asking.

What you are expressing abrogates the very IDEA of presumed innocence (the basic law of the USA.) Shame on you.

Then you go on about my having no concern for victims of rape. Shame on you.

You engage in transparent rhetoric. Shame on you.

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Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #220)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 05:27 PM

234. No, shame on you

Link to a post that advocates forcing you, Bob, to do anything.


Show me the Link Bob.

I wanna see what all your poutrage is about.


And you didn't speak up about those issues. You know it, I know it.

My problem with this is not that I think you actually support those bills about vaginas, but that you are trying to equate AN OPINION BY A MAN ADVOCATING CLASSES FOR MEN as the SAME THING those evil 1000 bills were all about - namely taking away personal freedom. CLASSIC FALSE EQUIVALENCE

Link to a post by any woman, anywhere on DU who is trying to take away your personal freedom in the same way that Congress introduced 1000 bills trying to take away my freedom.

Do it, Bob.

Do it for yourself, for all of us,

POst a goddamned link so we can all know what your outrage is really all about.

If you can do it, I'll share some of my golden tampon points with you


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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #234)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 05:43 PM

243. http://sync.democraticunderground.com/10021911263#post11

 

post 16 18 25 etc.

Saying that something is a necessity means it's not optional. Air is a necessity. High quality speakers are optional.

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Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #61)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:17 PM

75. So

any time someone at DU is discussing the subject of rape, you perceive that as a personal attack? That seems incomprehensible and a bit paranoid to me. I believe I stated in my previous comment that if the subject is so distasteful to you, no one is forcing you to join in the conversation. Why do you feel compelled to do so?

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Response to UtahLib (Reply #75)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:40 PM

84. Thank you

Don;t think you'll get a cogent answer, but thanks for trying.

I like both your posts.


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Response to UtahLib (Reply #75)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 09:34 AM

122. I was pointing out what looked like the makings of a witch hunt... n/t

 

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Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #122)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 02:52 PM

166. You have destroyed your own arguments here

You - who cannot seem to deal with the topic of rape without at first putting the little missies - in their place can provide ZERO links to any post claiming that "all men are rapists" or "all men are rape enablers."

You are poutraged that anyone might ask some men to take some classes on rape awareness ( I would say there is some serious fear and terror of discussing this issue if you are offended by being asked to educate yourself. Are you also a man who has a sad because the "patriarchy was conquered? Or are you in need of counseling to get over your dread of rape as a topic of discussion? )

Provide a link to back up any of your outrageous statements you've made here.

Otherwise you are merely another terror-filled human fabricating straw men and trying to derail a very important discussion.

LINKS LINKS LINKS You ain't got none then you're basically full of hot air.

And once again: THIS DISCUSSION IS NOT ABOUT YOU PERSONALLY


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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #166)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 03:03 PM

172. the quick version

 

All of your conversations with TeamsterDem can serve as your implied rhetoric, including that of Bettyellen. Unless you use a qualifier, a term implies a general case. That's how English works. To state otherwise suggest a certain passive-aggressiveness on your part. Your shift from your general case, to then later state that SOME men should take a class. If you are now going to now restrict this class to only SOME men, what is your selection criteria? Who are you to accuse someone of a pre-crime? Quite frankly, I'd sue a school for defamation of character, should they try that.

and your responses of "Patriarchy was conquered" and "terror-filled" conforms ringingly with the Sokal-humanities debates of the 90's. (The "patriarchy was conquered" pretty much gives away the entire subtext of your argument. You are looking to win some goal, instead of fixing a problem.)

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Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #172)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 03:12 PM

176. Like I said

You got nothing.

NOTHING.

But thanks for playing and NO THANKS for not CARING

You should be ashamed, really

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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #176)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 03:28 PM

178. Here we Go...

 

http://sync.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1912064

There's that whole thread, and the responses en toto to teamsterdem.

Your response "NOTHING" demonstrates you are willfully ignorant or in denial of the phrase "the whole response towards teamstedem serves as my link." Shame on you.

Your snide response shows that you are going for cheap political points. Shame on you.

Your attempts at guilt tripping "NO THANKS for not CARING" plays off as a black/white fallacy. Shame on you.

It's pretty clear that some folks here are trying for propaganda and cheap political points, instead of trying to solve a problem.

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Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #178)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 03:36 PM

181. So why not just admit you believe all your fellow men are too stupid

to learn anything from a class?

You want to continue that pity party here, and that just shows your priorities.

TeamsterDem made a fool out of himself, he made the very serious subject of rape all about him.

This is what misogynists have done for generations. You're not a Special Snowflake. This shit is as common as Oxycontin.

You'd rather strain at a gnat and swallow a camel.

ie: It seems You'd rather leave a rape victim lying bloody on the side of the road because some guy nearby was lumped in with other men and you just can't summon the courage to care about that rape victim until SOMEONE apologizes for your friend's perceived slight. You must rush to the defense of the offended male. The rape victim can rot.

How cruel can you get?

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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #181)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 03:46 PM

184. And here we go...

 

Who are you to determine what I MUST learn? If YOU determine that I NEED to take a special class, you have defamed my character.

You keep trying to use propaganda tactics. Pretty obviously, you are trying to score political points. That's rather sad.



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Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #184)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 03:57 PM

189. I'm collecting golden tampon points

I'm into menopause now, but if I get enough tampon points I can trade them in for a new toaster! Come on! Help me out here!





I was talking about young men specifically - most especially college-aged men.

They seem to have a problem understanding what constitutes rape.

I have full faith and confidence that they can be educated and that education will make a difference.

No one on any thread has posited that we should FORCE any man to do anything.

The blog you reference, that advocated these "awful, horrible, terrible" classes for men was WRITTEN BY A MAN


Why don't you get on that blog and attack him for harming your delicate sensibilities? because he's a MAN?

Or because you think it's far more fun to derail these threads?




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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #189)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 04:13 PM

199. okay... I have no idea what you mean by

 

golden tampon points.

You may have "full faith and confidence that they can be educated and that education will make a difference.." But what gives YOU the right to determine that they MUST take a class? You're stereotyping. College Aged (in general, as there are merit exceptions) over the age of majority (18 years of age in most places) means they can make legal decisions, barring alcohol, and enter contractual obligations.

Whether or not the article was written by a man doesn't really matter. The whole idea basically assumes guilt before judgement. That's violating civil rights. Hey! there's a Mexican kid in a jeep. Better give them a "don't sell drugs and kill people" course. Same stereotyping. WHO are YOU to determine what someone else MUST learn?

You're engaging in witch hunts. Shame on you.

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Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #199)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 04:23 PM

203. You never answered my questions

But you sure are pitching a big ole fit.

Far worse to be asked to take a class than it is to be raped.

I'm engaging in no such thing and you know it.

i am just glad that your kind is the exception rather than the rule on DU.

You speak only for a handful. The men who get it outnumber you, and you're even making a lot of them sick to their stomachs with your immature rants.
Take your cause up with the MAN who advocated these classes if you think you're brave enough. I happen to agree with him, and actually hadn't given the idea much thought until I saw some people whining about it.

I agree with Thomans, the author of the blog. Guess he's conducting a witch hunt, too, because he wants to eradicate rape in our culture.

You are projecting. It is you and your ilk who are engaging in witch hunts on these threads, trying to derail the conversation to always bring it back around to YOURSELF. In every one of your posts practically, you have expressed you wounded and insulted you are.

You seem to honestly believe your personal sense of poutrage is as damaging to society as rape is.

That is the definition of a narcissist, not a witch.

But i appreciate your providing this board with an example to others of just what many women have had to face from many men for generations.

I am fighting for rape victims. You are only fighting for your own bruised ego, it appears.

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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #203)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 04:42 PM

211. yup...

 

You and others seem to believe that you should be allowed to violate civil rights. Poor you.

Other than following personal consent and other laws, no one HAS to listen to you.

At the moment, your message is very similar to a bush-ism: "If you're not with us, you're with the terrorists..."

Civil rights and rules of evidence are the ONLY things keeping away mass lynch mobs.

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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #181)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 04:07 PM

196. I think it's lack of concern for anything but their own primitive feelings on the issue

But there seems to be two conflicting things going on- they like to come in and tell the little ladies they have a better idea how to fix things, then they minimize the problem and or say it's hopeless. And somehow, after that, they;re pissed we;re not grateful for their ignorance based "contributions". It boggles the mind.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #196)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 04:39 PM

210. I think there is a lot of "small mind" syndrome going on

There are a lot of narrow minded men out there - who feel they have given up enough rights to wymmins.

They want to force US to 'Obey' and sice they've lost that privilege except in their own domiciles of hell ( goddess, I feel sorry for the women in their lives ) they are beside themselves. And now someone is of the opinion that our society might benefit from educating MEN?

How DARE WE! They are supposed to be the ones who force US UPPITY WYMMINS to do things, not the other way around. Dammit! What happened to Happy Sparkly Fun Patriarchy Land!

The key is this: I have never seen even one of these whiney, pathetic goons show even a smidge of concern for the 1000 bills Congress introduced last year trying to fit government into our vaginas. NOT A GODDAMNED PEEP from the lot of them.

That tells you all you need to know about their opinions on the allocation of "rights."

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Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #61)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:38 PM

83. Those straw men are HUGE

How did you ever get them into this little thread?

Did you strain your back?

Please link to a post that proves your statements are anything else but a dude made of dry wheat stalks.

I'll be wating

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Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #61)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 06:55 PM

268. The problem is the average woman on the street...

...cannot know that you are not a rapist. That you are not actually a rapist does not matter, despite the gender-based stereotypes, women cannot read other people's minds and thus err on the side of caution.

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #268)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 07:04 PM

276. Actually, there's a fair bit of research on "warning sign" behavior...

 

explaining that a stereotype is "okay" doesn't avoid the stereotype.

And stating that men MUST take a course in "not raping" presumes stupidity, bestial nature, or some sort of inevitability. It also pretty much tears apart the idea of innocence until proven guilty. I think we ought to be careful throwing that one away...

and what are the penalties for NOT taking this course? OP speaks of "necessity." That would suggest that you HAVE to take the course.

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Response to UtahLib (Reply #54)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 04:25 PM

204. I haven't been able to figure that out, either

I'm a man, I've certainly never raped anyone, and statistics do not make me uncomfortable at all. They're clearly not speaking about me (though I do see 'em as a message to me, as should anyone else) so what reason is there to take personal umbrage?

Wish I could figure out why some other guys get their boxers in such a twist over it.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #204)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 04:46 PM

213. It is puzzling, isn't it?

But thankfully, you and all the other enlightened, progressive, egalitarian men on this forum are the rule.

i am glad to be a member of a forum with so many great guys here.

Rape is such an evil thing, and it destroys souls as well as futures, and sometimes even the ability to bear children.

It causes trauma, and often lifelong feelings of anguish and fear.

How can any man be so petty as to act like an opinion on classes for men harms them more than rape harms the rape victim?

I really feel sad for the women in their lives.


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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #213)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 08:01 PM

295. I'm thinking that it may just be a perpetuation of our culture's standards

Where the onus of rape is on the victim; not necessarily the blame (some still think that way but I think by and large our culture readily blames the rapist rather than the victim) but rather the notion that it is the problem of just the victim, and in large, it is a "women's issue," that should only be addressed as each individual occurrence.

That is, rape is "someone else's problem," and not a problem of the culture. It's sort of like how at work, your manager might call the group together to discuss an "issue" that everyone there knows is really only an issue for one member of the group.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #295)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 08:26 PM

300. Rugged Individualism

As if the individual is left to his or her own devices to deal with the crime.

In the case of some men who refuse to help with the issue, who instead become outraged at the mere mention of it, I honestly believe they must be rapists or must have enabled some. Now I am certainly not saying this about a single DUer - I want to make that clear - rather about men in our society who balk at having anything to do with toughening sentencing or other penalties.

For example, legislators, law enforcement and judges who are male might fight against any reform because they, themselves are guilty of rape.

On DU, I've come to the conclusion that the most vocal misogynists here are very bitter because they had a bad relationship they can't get over. They are truly men in pain, men who need counseling and help working through their bitterness.

Rather than recognizing that their inner rage against women is holding them - and us - back, they just keep attacking women to make up for the wounds some woman or women inflicted on them.

I can't think of any other reason why these few posters are so full of hostility toward benign discussion that aren't about them personally.



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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #204)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 12:09 AM

335. Thank you

I'm not here to post as often as I'd like. I've only just read the various diatribes of Geek Bob. All I can say is that he seems unable to clear his mind of the clutter it has accumulated through the years. In that case, he will never be able to focus on the subject at hand but only the injustice he perceives as being directed toward him personally.

I believe the world is a better place for having such clear minded men as yourself. Thank you, again.

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Response to Tsiyu (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:41 PM

57. Thank you! K&R!!!!!

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Response to boston bean (Reply #57)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:45 PM

85. Thank you, bb

thanks for also fighting the good fight here




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Response to Tsiyu (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:50 PM

60. The Obama administration changes were unable to stop a CT court from setting a rapist free, see:

Court Requires Disabled Rape Victim To Prove She Resisted, Calls For Evidence Of ‘Biting, Kicking, Scratching’

By Zack Beauchamp on Oct 3, 2012

In a 4-3 ruling Tuesday afternoon, the Connecticut State Supreme Court overturned the sexual assault conviction of a man who had sex with a woman who “has severe cerebral palsy, has the intellectual functional equivalent of a 3-year-old and cannot verbally communicate.” The Court held that, because Connecticut statutes define physical incapacity for the purpose of sexual assault as “unconscious or for any other reason. . . physically unable to communicate unwillingness to an act,” the defendant could not be convicted if there was any chance that the victim could have communicated her lack of consent. Since the victim in this case was capable of “biting, kicking, scratching, screeching, groaning or gesturing,” the Court ruled that that victim could have communicated lack of consent despite her serious mental deficiencies:

When we consider this evidence in the light most favorable to sustaining the verdict, and in a manner that is consistent with the state’s theory of guilt at trial, we, like the Appellate Court, ‘are not persuaded that the state produced any credible evidence that the was either unconscious or so uncommunicative that she was physically incapable of manifesting to the defendant her lack of consent to sexual intercourse at the time of the alleged sexual assault.’

According to the Rape, Abuse, and Incest National Network (RAINN), lack of physical resistance is not evidence of consent, as “many victims make the good judgment that physical resistance would cause the attacker to become more violent.” RAINN also notes that lack of consent is implicit “if you were under the statutory age of consent, or if you had a mental defect” as the victim did in this case.


That's the 3-paragraph limit. I'm disenheartened that a court would do this. If anyone knows or has family members in this condition, resistance is not what is going to happen. It makes me too sick to say anymore, but you guys judge. More at link:


http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/10/03/947981/court-requires-disabled-rape-victim-to-prove-she-fought-back-calls-for-evidence-of-biting-kicking-scratching/

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=edit&forum=1002&thread=1474289

Think Progress UPDATE:

An astute reader pointed out that the prosecution appears to have made an egregious error in the trial. Instead of prosecuting the sexual assault on grounds that the victim was “mentally defective” (subsection 2 of this code), they charged that sexual assault took place because the victim was “physically helpless” (subsection 3). Without the subsection 2 evidence, the Court could not consider the mental capacity of the victim and hence ruled only on physical helplessness, perhaps wrongly. As noted above, disability rights advocates still have major concerns about the majority’s holding on subsection 3 grounds, as it appears to set a higher standard of proof of “physical helplessness” for disabled victims relative to able-bodied ones.


The Obama administration legal change made months before, and likely taken into account when he was convicted. But with double jeopardy, he can't be charged twice.

Anyone who knows people with CP knows they are physically helpless, and can be mentally defective or not. But she was no more able to resist than an unconscious person such as the Obama change specifies, as well.

From the OP and about the Obama change:

Physical resistance from the victim is not required to demonstrate lack of consent in the new definition, NBC reported.


I think it fits well within the law. Yet the CT Supreme Court still let him go free.


The thread has some very good comments.



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Response to freshwest (Reply #60)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:51 PM

86. That is pathetic

Hey Connecticut Supreme Court: YOU ARE PIGS.

Bless that child. makes me so angry.

I'm glad the Obama admin made that change, and so sad the CT Supreme Court let the rapist go free. To have to go through the entire trial only to know that slimebucket went free makes me so sick.

I will try to catch up on that thread when I have more time.

Thank you so much for adding it to this thread. We MUST do a better job of protecting our most vulnerable from predators.

I'm just sick now.

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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #86)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 12:21 AM

92. Sorry. I just meant to show how it is. I've known a lot of CP kids and have friend whose daughter is

CP and most likely just like this woman. Her greatest fear is when she dies that this will happen to her daughter. Her health is failing and she cannot trust anyone with her.

Most of her family and her husband are gone and the other part of family is not interested. She has at times thought of killing her daughter and committing suicide because of this. So those of us who know her try to keep her together, but this is a danger for all disabled. A number of them, male and female, are raped.

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Response to freshwest (Reply #92)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 12:35 AM

95. What a mental torture that is

( and never feel you should apologize for any post, even if it hurts. I want to read of others' experiences even if it makes me sick. )

Knowledge is power.

Hell, there are creeps who rape old women in nursing homes. Maybe we need Jocelyn Elders back! She was the one, I beleive, who advocating teaching kids about masturbation to help them cope with their sexual energy.

She was spot on. Now what we have is sick freaks masturbating into anything that's got flesh. No ethics, no remorse, no concern for the pain and anguish they cause others.

I hope there is a good solution for your friend. I really do. So sad.




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Response to Tsiyu (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:05 PM

67. K&R!!!!!!!!!!

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #67)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 12:06 AM

90. Thank Odin



We have a long way to go, but I take those few derailers' manipulations as a challenge.

Don't like discussing rape?

Then we'll just talk about it even more!

Now that I know it pisses off the trolls, it's Game On.

Lesson to trolls: never reveal those things that get you defensive and dishonest.




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Response to Tsiyu (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:15 PM

71. And the Repukes do nothing...excerpt from my post

If Republicans have been chastened by losing the women’s vote last week by the widest margin in modern history, they have a funny way of showing it.

House GOP leaders aren’t yielding to a bipartisan coalition of Senate leaders demanding they extend the protections of the Violence Against Women Act — an anti-domestic abuse bill that was first passed with broad support in 1994 but hit a brick wall of Republican opposition earlier this year.
Snip>

“Domestic violence protections for all women shouldn’t be a Democratic or a Republican issue,” Sen. Patty Murray (D-WA), the party’s point person for the issue, said in a statement. “A six month delay is inexcusable. One day is inexcusable. As we enter the final days of this Congress, it is time for House Republicans to look beyond ideology and partisan politics. Their obstruction is taking a toll on women across this country.”

Failing to extend funding would reduce available resources for state and local governments to combat domestic violence. As things stand, the stalemate shows no signs of ending.

Asked if she believes House Republicans will come around, Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-CA), a leading advocate for VAWA, told TPM on Thursday, “I have no idea.”

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/11/23/buenos-aires-art-exhibit-combats-violence-against-women/#.ULFOZhM7ePQ.email

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021877501

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #71)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 12:09 AM

91. Republicans want to reword the Violence Against Women Act

so that it makes it MANDATORY to use violence against women.


They might have some friends here, it seems.

I hope this Congress has more smarts and concern for this nation than the last one.

Than ks for adding it to the thread.


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Response to Tsiyu (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:35 PM

81. Since culture, including "rape culture" is created equally by women...

Culture is the sum of total of the learned behavior of a group of people that are generally considered to be the tradition of that people and are transmitted from generation to generation.

Let's agree that America is a "rape culture". We should then also agree that it is created as much by women, who have always done the lion's share of raising and educating children, as it is by men.

So now that we agree, how do we get women (and men) to change the culture they have created?

And if any women are offended by the suggestion that you have raised your children to be rapists, let me remind you that if you have not raised your child to be a rapist, passively encouraged your father or brothers or uncles to be rapists, then I am not speaking to you and you should in no way be offended.

You have to start by admitting that mothers (and fathers too), in general, have raised a lot of children to be rapists. Admitting it is the way to start changing it.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #81)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:56 PM

88. Sure, to the same extent that other oppressed groups create the culture that oppresses them.

I'd think the majority of us are quite are aware that women play a role in shaping the culture. Many of us know stories of mothers, sisters, friends, etc. who blamed rape victims for what was done to them--or who ignored, excused, or justified the predatory behaviors of the men in their lives.

However, it would also be nice if the oppression of women (about which there is an ASTOUNDING amount of statistical data) would be acknowledged for what it is. Just as I as a white, straight, able-bodied member of an industrialized society have to acknowledge the incredible privilege to which I was born (and the incredible oppression of non-white, non-straight, disabled, and/or nonresidents of industrialized societies must endure for me to maintain that privilege), it would be nice if more of the men on DU would acknowledge that in *some* ways their gender confers an overall statistical advantage.

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Response to antigone382 (Reply #88)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 05:28 AM

107. Privilege

 

I'm sorry, but as a white, straight man, you don't speak for me or for white, straight men in general. The reality is that women have always been the privileged class; women were not "oppressed", they were protected. They were placed on a pedestal, whereas men have always been considered expendable. That in itself doesn't bother me, I consider it my duty and responsibility as a man. All I ask is that women fulfill their duty and responsiblity in return for the sacrifices that men make for them.

I'll also add that the white male privilege myths are getting tiresome. The truth is that the entire system is stacked against white males. White males are the scapegoat and punching bags of the world, we're supposed to take the blame for other people's failures in life. No, I don't accept that. I worked hard for everything I have in life (including having to overcome the hurdles of institutional discrimination that affect white males), and if anyone refuses to do the same, that's their responsibility, not mine.

Incidentally, it's amusing that feminists love to blame white males for everything that's wrong with the world, considering that nobody has done more to advance the cause of women's rights than white males. Women's rights are pretty much a white male invention. After all, "nations of color" are hardly bastions of feminism.

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Response to Sparta09 (Reply #107)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 06:58 AM

109. "The reality is that women have always been the privileged class"--WHAT??!!?


"Privileged"--women in the US couldn't vote until 1920!

they couldn't serve on juries in many states until around the 1950's.

And so on.

what planet are you living on?


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Response to raccoon (Reply #109)


Response to Sparta09 (Reply #110)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 07:48 AM

113. You should peddle this bullshit on FR /Jury results

Some people there might still fall for it, 50 years after the last sane person would even listen to such arguments.

jury:

A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Sun Dec 2, 2012, 07:55 AM, and voted 5-1 to HIDE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Nothing wrong with a difference of opinion on DU. I suggest rather than banning the post, the objector reply with arguments that counter the points.
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT and said: Oh for Pete's sake. This is just misogyny.
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT and said: Troll.
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT and said: This member needs to be shown the door.
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT and said: Oh boy! Degrading minorities and women?! Think this one may be lost...

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Response to Sparta09 (Reply #107)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 12:31 PM

130. ROFL

is this performance art?
If not, someone show this ass the door.

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Response to Sparta09 (Reply #107)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 02:14 PM

158. Interesting thing about the "expendability" of men in warfare...

Your premise ignores a few realities--the biggest victims of warfare are often the women and children who are viewed as prizes for the conquering army. Also of note, men are frequently honored for their sacrifice with medals, statues, healthcare for the rest of their lives, and grants for educational and business opportunities after their service. That is not to say that war is not a horrific thing to put any human being through, nor is it to say that military personnel are adequately compensated. The fact is that your very example highlights the existence of privilege--to the extent that "expendability" exists, it is primarily for the poor and for ethnic minorities, as evidenced by the proportions of poor and minority individuals in the military relative to the general population. It is disproportionately poor and minority men who are injured and killed in battle.

Having said that, where are the statues for the victims of mass rape in the Congo? Where are the state medals awarded to the "comfort women" (a soft and squishy phrase for prisoners and victims of horrific rapes) provided to Japanese soldiers? Where are their state benefits and their honor for the sacrifices asked of them in the interest of warfare? Where are the noble stories of women caught in the Hindu/Muslim conflicts in India who are routinely raped in a retaliatory game to determine which group of men can best "protect" the honor of their own women, while most adequately destroying the honor of their foes' women? There are none--in fact they must continually combat shame for having been violated. India is a much more patriarchal place than the U.S. and its women are not "protected..." and prior to the institution of increased rights and freedoms for women in the U.S., neither were we.

Now, having highlighted the sexual violence in other cultures, let's tear down your point that feminism was a white male invention. The reality is that many Native American cultures had incredible equality between the sexes (and even for third genders) long before white people realized that might be a good idea. In fact in a great many cultures, while their particular mode of gender relations might not have been my personal ideal of gender equity, there were options available to women, who had some autonomy and certain roles that gave them power. It was very often colonialism, and the enforcement of a European model of gender relations, that destroyed those paths to power for women and left them to the mercy of the men in their lives--men who, for all their power and all their supposed ideals of "protecting" their women, had very few qualms about beating, enslaving, or abandoning them.

Your entire premise is historically and sociologically ignorant. Unfortunately I don't think that you are interested in being educated.

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Response to antigone382 (Reply #158)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 02:39 PM

163. +10000000

I believe our misogynist, racist cave dweller has been shown to door.

Sparta the Farta is a PRIME example of the kinds of men women and minorities have to deal with. He is the type of man who thinks he's entitled to first place because he's Caucasian.

Never mind that the Iroquois gave women the vote circa 1500. Only White men have cared about us wymmins! That's why there were 1000 bills introduced last year in Congress by White guys to keep our uteruses from RULING THE WORLD Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!



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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #163)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 02:41 PM

164. Poor dude, now if you'll excuse me,

I need to go throw tampons at men who open doors for women.

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Response to antigone382 (Reply #164)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 02:56 PM

169. ROFL



Take your pink Ruger

And some bear spray.

According to this poster, you're free game if you won't let them put you on a pedestal!


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Response to Bonobo (Reply #81)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 12:02 AM

89. I don't think ANY social scientists would say women are nearly as influential, but that said....

Chick flicks (and lit) are the worst at putting crazy ideas about men in their head.
Since Twilight and The Gray series has come out, some young girls think controlling and stalkerish behavior is desirable.
There's always been a bit of that weirdness from gals who watch soap operas, but they mistake compulsive control freaky shit for intense love. Texting compulsively about your whereabouts is also something that promotes this phenomenon.
When I was young, guys would at least try to pretend they weren't stalking. And you'd be creeped out if you caught him.
Today, it appears to go totally unremarked upon.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #81)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 12:28 AM

94. It's a fight we all must join

All of us.

But look at Penn State. Did the victims create the environment of molestation?

I do agree women often give tacit approval of rape, for example we have all heard stories of mothers allowing their boyfriends/dealers/husbands to rape their own children.

And too many parents have no clue how to talk to any of their kids.

We need comprehensive sex ed/rape ed classes in middle AND high school. We need police departments to process rape kits and to spend some of their drug confiscation lucre on training more officers in sensitively and effectively investigating and prosecuting rape.

We need all college fraternities to be monitored. When one in 16 college men admits to date rape, it's clear colleges and universities are complicit in rape culture. There should be monitors during ANY party to make sure college men and women are safe from rape. We need colleges to do far, far more to hold students accountable and to educate them about rape.

We need networks like CBS to stop fetishizing rape on their crime dramas. CBS goes out of its way to make the "sexy" dead victim just an aside, an amusement, and not the horrific tragedy that any person's rape and death is.

I remember workplace sexism, and Anita Hill, and I can honestly say that most workplaces ( except kitchen work which is like working with the Mongol Hordes to quote another DUer ) are free of sexual harassment in my experience. Many good men realize that you don't harrass your co-workers, and I feel that is a very good development. ( Pay could be more equitable of course. ) Others may have different experiences, but I see that as a step in the right direction when I think back to all the lawsuits I could have won years ago if the laws were the same then as now.

We also need celebrities to get some courage and speak up about rape. make PSAs. If we reach kids - through education - early, we can prevent rape from happening in the first place.

The work is not specific to gender. We are all responsible. We are all needed in the fight.

Great post, Bonobo



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Response to Tsiyu (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 01:07 AM

99. k&r

 

It's domestic terrorism.

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Response to Starry Messenger (Reply #99)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 01:31 AM

100. The crazy thing is, it's only a small percentage of men

doing most of the raping. Seems like we should have no problem identifying and prosecuting these cretins, yet rape continues to get worse.

I can only assume this is because law enforcement, the courts and the legislators do not care that people are raped. It just doesn't matter. The military practically encourages rape, although the film in my second OP link has led to some changes.

Maybe if we confiscated rapists' property, took their vehicles, their homes, etc, like we do those who are convicted of drug crimes, we could use the forfeitures to pay for better law enforcement and education.

It's certainly far worse a crime to rape someone else than it is to have possession of drugs, or even to be selling some drugs. But the drug dealers get all their shit confiscated, while the legislators ignore any real punishment for rapists and child molesters.

Maybe they think it wlll never happen to their kids; maybe they just don't care.

But if rape continues to be ignored, and continues to escalate, a lot of the posters here who think it will never happen in their happy little world, as well as legislators and judges, are going to become victims themselves - or they will see their daughters, wives, mothers, sons become victims.

Maybe then they will care.


It's terrorism indeed. And we need to keep talking about it until we all work toward ending it

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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #100)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 09:54 AM

125. Yes, it's a larger percentage protecting them, protecting the system.

 

Probably most won't care until we make the legal pain threshold higher for rape and sexual assault. Think of all the outrage over Sandusky, protesting his innocence. And that was little children, boys, having their lives destroyed over and over. All those people protected him.

We live in a society that protects the powerful, this attitude trickles right down the line. The most vulnerable are being kept in line by the most heinous violence.

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Response to Starry Messenger (Reply #125)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 12:26 PM

128. Here is how *DOZENS OF WOMEN* say they've seen exactly that

Hit the link, and hear dozens of gals describe how their guy friends didn't support them because it's too icky for them to deal with.
Again- guys putting their "uncomfortable feelings" before the safety and health of women.


"Step 1: A creepy dude does creepy, entitled shit and makes women feel unsafe.

Step 2: The women speak up about it to their partners.

Step 3: It gets written off as “not a big deal” or “he probably didn’t mean it” or “he’s not a bad guy, really.” Any discussion of the bad behavior must immediately be followed by a complete audit of his better qualities or the sad things he’s suffered in the name of “fairness.” Once the camera has moved in and seen him in closeup as a real, human, suffering person, how can you (the object, always an object, as in “objectified,” as in a disembodied set of tits or orifices, or a Trapper Keeper, or a favorite coffee mug or a pet cat) be so cruel as to want to hold him accountable for his actions? Bitches, man.

Step 4: Everyone is worried about hurting creepy dude’s feelings or making it weird for creepy dude. Better yet, everyone is worried about how the other dudes in the friend group will feel if they are called out for enabling creepy dude. Women are worried that if they push the issue, that the entire friend group will side with creepy dude or that they’ll be blamed for causing “drama.” Look at how LW #323 put it: ”how can I approach this subject with my boyfriend, and make him understand a) how serious this is, and b) that he is not responsible for Ben’s reactions, without making him feel defensive?”

Wouldn’t want someone who covers up for and defends a proto-rapist to have to have SADFEELS, right? (LW, it’s not your fault you’re asking the question this way, it’s just that our culture sucks about this and your boyfriend and his friends have been giving you constant messages that Ben is to be coddled while you are to be shushed in the hopes that it will all blow over).

Step 5: Creepy dude creeps on with his creepy self. He’s learned that there are no real (i.e. “disapproval & pushback from dudes and dude society”) consequences to his actions. Women feel creeped out and unsafe.Some of them decide to take a firm stand against creeping and not come to parties anymore. They slowly slide out of the friend group. Some of the woman decide to just quietly put up with it, because they’ve learned that no one will really side with them and it’s easier to go along than to lose one’s entire community. The whole group works around this missing stair.

Possible Step 6: Creepy dude rapes someone. If he does, there’s a less than 50% chance that the woman will report it. Why?

Could it be that all the people who surround her have taught her that if she speaks up nothing will really come of it anyway? Could it be that she doesn’t trust her friends and the people who love her to have her back on this? I CAN’T IMAGINE WHY. They couldn’t even kick this dude off their weekly trivia team."

http://captainawkward.com/2012/08/07/322-323-my-friend-group-has-a-case-of-the-creepy-dude-how-do-we-clear-that-up/#comment-20894

http://captainawkward.com/2012/08/07/322-323-my-friend-group-has-a-case-of-the-creepy-dude-how-do-we-clear-that-up/#comment-20894

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #128)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 12:50 PM

133. Oh holy crap, yes. That brings back memories.

 

"The Friend From Middle School"--this must be a powerful time in a young man's life.

Giving up that "friend" is like trying to get them off coke. Not my partner, but a friend of his has a best friend that is such a fucking lizard and living illustration of this. "Aww, he means well".

Thank you for that blog...I followed his link to the blog on "manpain" and I'm DLing the video right now. This should be rich.

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Response to Starry Messenger (Reply #133)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 01:10 PM

137. interesting comments- guys complaining they can't support because women didn't complain about it

in a way that completely suited these guys. Giving tips to women's about how to talk to them about sexual abuse.
Same shit as here.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #137)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 08:55 PM

305. I get the same tired shit from my "progressive" boyfriend.

If I use the wrong language to talk with him about rape, sexual assault, street harassment, misogyny, or god forbid "feminism" or any other such thing, he gets all hostile and tells me I need to phrase it differently because my language is "alienating".

Fucking hell.

I am continually alienated by the way women are treated in our society, and he is bitching about the language I use to talk about it because it makes him feel "uncomfortable"???



He has no idea what "uncomfortable" actually feels like.

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Response to MadrasT (Reply #305)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 10:18 PM

323. See post #255



What IS the deal with some guys being unable or unwilling to listen unless somethng is presented to them all wrapped in pretty paper with a goddamned bow on top?

Are these guys THAT fucking FRAGILE?

Just listen, guys. Just listen! That's all you're being asked to do!

After you listen and think about it, you can help us come up with solutions.




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Response to MadrasT (Reply #305)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 11:22 PM

330. Wow. And these are guys who THINK they are being supportive! My favorite cousin blew me off years

ago when I told him a friend had attacked me. Last week, many years later, that family came up in conversation... and I brought it up- you know, I had to hit him on the head to stop him from ripping my clothes off when I was 15. He believed me immediately this time- because the guy's been in and out of jail for the last ten years. He didn't even remember me telling him this years ago, and him totallly blowing me off. Pushed it out of his head, because it didn't suit him to think about it. And he's one of the good ones. It ain't easy.






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Response to Tsiyu (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 03:56 AM

105. K & R.

And bookmarked. A very important post.

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Response to Tsiyu (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 08:03 AM

118. Some men in this thread belong on FR


The thing about statistics - and science in general - is that it's true no matter how you may feel about it.

Is anyone else reminded of FR in how people are offended by statistics? Change rape to climate change, and this thread offers an illuminating take on how some people just cannot deal with reality. It's very Foxish, to say the least.

This party, and this forum, still have a very long way to go. I used to fancy that we we're so much more evolved, here, in our little community. But we aren't. We're still much nearer to the Tea Party in our discussion of these topics than we like to think.

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Response to Democracyinkind (Reply #118)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 05:55 PM

247. I appreciate your comments

Honestly, I believe most men on this board are in agreement that we have to something serious to stem this tide of sexual assaults.

there are a handful who live to derail discussion, to make every post about themselves, to create an adversarial environment where we're bogged down in semantics and pettiness so that we make no progress.

They'd make great Republican Congresspeople, dontcha think?

The DoNothing DUers.....perpetually poutraged and chronically childish.






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Response to Tsiyu (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 08:50 AM

119. Thanks for posting the stats

The epidemic of rape must be addressed. The ramifications for society as a whole are profound.

A rape culture affects all of us--even people who have never been sexually assaulted or raped. (Most women have experienced some form of sexual harassment). All young girls (& boys) should have self-defense, taught in schools. All should have training in what constitutes rape and how to avoid it.

Not only does it affect interactions between the sexes, but a rape culture is linked to predation of all kinds.

The state of being physically and psychologically victimized--the injustice of one sex having "power over" another--is incredibly destructive.

Most girls in this culture today grow up knowing they have a target on their backs. They feel the hatred and
domination that is behind every rape--the subjugation of women in general that rape culture promotes.

EVERY woman, young or old, feels this.

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Response to marions ghost (Reply #119)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 07:01 PM

275. You're welcome and so, so spot on

Many times rape victims are held back in life because they feel worthless, and vulnerable even years after the rape.

They don't live life to its fullest, don't reach their full potential, because they fear certain situations or they are so busy trying to do the work of recovering and coping, they don't want to take any risks; they avoid any situation that might lead to further assault.

The cost, medically is also phenomenal.

With PTSD, certain things will trigger a panic attack or flashback. It can be a smell, a song, a part of town. It can be absolutely debilitating.

I have wanted to do a post like this for a while, but I stayed out of it until after the election. I have been waiting for a chance to put the misogynists on this board in their place.

They opened the door; they asked for these statistics because they don't care enough to look them up for themselves. They just run around here bloviating and flinging poo and expecting us all to put up with their sophomoric, ignorant shit.

But I hope the posters in thee and some of the other rape threads have shown rape survivrs on DU that there are an abundance of really good people on this site - both male and female.


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Response to Tsiyu (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 09:46 AM

123. My wife tells me she read somewhere that on average 3 women per day

 

Last edited Sun Dec 2, 2012, 11:10 AM - Edit history (1)

die violently at the hands of a mate in the U.S. Thus your statistic that 91% of rapes occur when the victim knows the perpetrator does not surprise me unduly.

I mention this statistic because it (sexual violence) is a HUGE problem and one sign of a deeply dysfunctional and sick culture. I do not know what the treatment or cure for the disease is, but I know that it will only get worse if left undiscussed and untreated.

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Reply #123)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 12:38 PM

131. Thanks for this post.

I definitely agree that it won't get better unaddressed.

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Reply #123)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 05:39 PM

241. When I was a younger women

I started cutting out all the articles in the Atlanta Journal about women murdered by partners. I filled a drawer full in a few months. I wanted to write something about how horrific this was, how it was like domestic terrorism.

My own abusive husband put a stop to that by destroying my typewriter. My dad got me a new typewriter and he killed that one too.

If people only understood, they would see that women are engaged in domestic combat all over this nation.......




in their own homes.


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Response to Tsiyu (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 12:48 PM

132. It deeply saddens me that thirty years later...

a substantial number of women are likely to be raped within their lifetime. The discussion is still stifled by many.

When I started recovering after becoming a rape survivor I had hoped that this would change for future generations of women.

Thanks for posting this.

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Response to salin (Reply #132)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 05:49 PM

245. Thank you

and I'm sorry for what happened to you. I think being victimized often silences a person. Some avoid discussions of this sort, even though they have much to offer, because it triggers awful memories, panic attacks, etc.

So I am so thankful for those women and men who work through it to post about their experiences. If one in 5 or 6 women has been raped in their lifetime, that means one in five DU women are statistically likely to have been victims of rape. If one in 71 men has been raped ( and I have heard the number is far higher than this ) then statistically, one in 71 DU men is a rape survivor.

Don't know about you, but I have reached my tipping point on DU.

Every decent American should want to protect our children, our mothers and fathers, our sisters and brothers, our neighbors. Any of us can become a victim of rape.

I am disgusted with those on this board who play games rather than show any desire to take the epidemic of rape seriously.

ENOUGH.


Thanks for joining my thread; I appreciate your comments.

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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #245)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 07:55 PM

289. This is an important discussion

thank you for starting it (hugs). Also know that this has spurred other conversations - among survivors and their loved-ones and friends.

I have read a few very disturbing posts through the series of thread. But the ratio of disturbing to insightful/affirmative has been: very small: very large/broad. That is encouraging.

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Response to salin (Reply #289)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 10:01 PM

319. I think all of these threads

have been instrumental in

A) showing DU what the feminists have had to deal with for years

B) showed the misogynists that the good men of DU outnumber them and do not approve of their shit

C) gave people support so that they could share their stories

D) Started a conversation that will continue for I hope a long time

I hope that these threads have helped and not hurt rape survivors too much.




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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #319)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 10:27 PM

324. only a single survivor speaking here.

I can't say that it helped me. And I don't see how it could have helped others. Surviving is step one, healing (which involves *good* therapy is another) is a different thing altogether. These discussions contribute nothing to that.

However, for most of us - we want to see this cycle end. We want to see the number of victims decrease and the number of people who have to work through both survival and healing decrease. That is where this discussion has been both terribly disturbing (stirring up very deep-seeded emotions with some of the disturbing posts - that both serve as reminders of that initial violation - and of the fact that the situation still volatile for current and future generations.) and then - encouraging - given the ratio of supportive:defensive:dismissive posters. I don't know that the ratio would have been the same when I first came to DU more than a decade ago. I *know* the ratio would have been different two decades ago.

Point is - this doesn't help healing. I have had off line conversations with other survivors. This has been a very upsetting and disturbing set of days. Triggers have been sent off from so many directions. However, at least for those of us whose healing has been long underway - the discomfort hasn't been like scabs being pulled off (just general sick feelings). The shaking came not from being back in the throes of the rape - but in the waves of disgust that so many younger people will still at the same level of risk - and still had to face these life-altering circumstances. The utter frustration and dismay at that reality.

Then - as the threads emerged and discussions occured - there is hopefulness. Not for me, not for other survivors (though a greater societal understanding of what survival means is good), but for our collective and protective hope for the next generations. THAT has been productive - and has smoothed over all of the earlier jitteriness and ill feelings that emerged in some of us survivors when these discussions began.

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Response to salin (Reply #324)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 11:16 PM

328. Thank you for your honesty

I honestly didn't hold out much hope for this thread.

Figured it would sink like a stone. but it was my attempt at a "class" for those people who didn't seem to understand the extent to which rape has become a public epidemic. For all those guys outraged that we should suggest such a terrifying thing as a class HORRORS - they sure showed up here, though I doubt they read the OP

You and I both know that years ago, a thread like this would probably have been locked. The derailers then, as the derailers now, used every trick in the book to get posts about women's issues locked and they nearly always succeeded. There were many times I had to just leave DU.

Every time I come back, it's a little better.

This has been exhausting, truthfully. And I've only been at it for two days this run. My accolades to many of you who have been fighting these battles all along. The bullies have not worn any of us to silence. I really don't know how you all have kept going here, but I applaud you.

Please, I am sorry for those whom this thread may have hurt or triggered bad memories. I am so, so sorry. I guess I really agree with you, I don;t think a thread can "heal" per se, but part of my healing has come from hearing other people's stories, from not feeling like a freak, from not feeling alone. As a rape survivor myself, and a survivor of horrible abuse, I do understand. I could tell so many horrific tales about what I've been through if I was able to speak about a lot of it. I deal with a lot of things by just not remembering unless a nightmare or a trigger forces the issue. I lie myself to sleep. And these threads have not triggered anything from my rape - by a babysitter when I was a small kid - but they have triggered more than a bit from other horrific experiences. Yesterday I shook and ate nothing and went to bed with my heart racing like crazy. Like many you describe, it was the faux outrage, the "I don't care," the "I already know all there is to know about rape." NO dude, you DON'T fucking know! You notice I have tried to skirt the subthreads here on child rape. I cannot go there....I say I'm over it, but one never really is, is one?

It's physically exhausting to have these conversations, and emotionally painful to read the worst responses and I am sorry for those who have had a rough time coping with this. But, like you, I am encouraged by the slow, slow change I see taking place. The tipping point has been reached for many of us. There will be no turning back.

I thought that this would end up a train wreck, derailed by fools, and I knew I would be attacked. Didn't hold out much hope for any of these threads, but I think we are making slow and steady progress. PLease send my condolences to those suffering. I am in tears right at this moment thinking I may have hurt someone in any way who is coping with this, but I guess I know we all have a little bit to be grateful for and we'll hold on to that until we can find a way to progress past the STOP sign the derailers always place in our paths.

The truth is, we're not any safer. We still have to face a society where we must be afraid.

And we must keep trying to make it safer for all those here now, and all those who will be here long after we are gone.

Again, I am sorry if I hurt you or anyone in any way. I have been at this for 10 hours now, on dialup, and I think i am going to get away now, but thank you again so much for the honesty and your contributions to this thread.

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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #328)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 11:42 PM

334. (Tsiyu) your thread didn't set the triggers.

I think that your thread responded to those that did, or to those posts on other treads that did.

You presented information that indicates that the problem hasn't changed in 30 years. It gave hard data to what survivors can only give as anecdotal.

I deeply appreciate this thread and the discussion. I just wanted to be clear that this doesn't help "healing." However, for many rape survivors, who form an informal underground of support for one another. Along with our healing - from the early days of grasping with surviving - we WISH to prevent this for others. It is a horrific-life altering experience that we want no others to experience. Your thread invites conversation that just maybe... might convince non participants that the conditions are just as bad today as they were one, two and three decades ago. But there are many more people who are willing to engage in the conversation.

You need offer no apologies. Your contribution is valid, important, and hopeful in that it might reach others and start many more offline discussions. I greatly appreciate what you have said, and how you have nurtured the thread into a true conversation.

That said. I have to get up to go to work in a few hours, and have a long week ahead of me. I think I need to sign off for a bit. But I want you to know before I do, that I appreciate this thread and your voice. Again - no apologies needed. You didn't set off triggers. Others set those off earlier. Your thread responded to those OPs and/or posts that set them off.

Peace and thank you.

salin

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Response to Tsiyu (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 03:08 PM

175. How can you even hurt my feelings?

The overwhelming majority of rapists are men. We men have a responsibility to stop other men from hurting women....a responsibility that we shed or ignore if we constantly try to turn attention from the REAL issues to some dumbass whine about how not all of us are rapists.

I know I'm not a rapist. I will try to never, ever even put a women in a situation where she has to be scared of my intentions (hell, if a women is walking in front of me and looks even the least bit nervous, I will cross the street or put more distance between us). I have never had to pressure a women to have sex with me.

And I don't care if you don't believe me or distrust me because IT's NOT IMPORTANT. I'd rather you don't trust me, and keep yourself safe then take needless chances. I'm sorry that we have to live in a world where you have to be so careful around me, because in reality no women is safer on the street than one who has me walking behind her. But that's the price I'm willing to pay. And I hate that women have to live with this reality.

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Response to Evoman (Reply #175)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 03:56 PM

188. Thank you for not putting your ego first, Evo. That we should be soothing egos before we're allowed

to even discuss the issue is an all too common expectation of men.
I seem to have upset many by my pledge to not comfort their hurt feelings over this. Do they realize we can see they are showing us, don't give a damn about our feelings? Yet they expect to coddled.
















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Response to Evoman (Reply #175)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 04:02 PM

191. Thank you so much for this post

Seriously tearing up here because I so needed this post to reaffirm what I believe: most men truly DO care, and most men see this faux outrage on DU as exactly the sort of thing that keeps us from moving forward, from eradicating rape in our culture.


The truth is, I raised five great sons. My best friend is male. I put a lot of confidence in men to do the right thing when they are asked to help.

And I salute you for speaking for so many men who may not post what you did, but who feel the same as you.





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Response to Evoman (Reply #175)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 04:15 PM

201. Thank you.

So much.

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Response to Evoman (Reply #175)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 05:11 PM

224. Thank you. Great post. n/t

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Response to Tsiyu (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 04:05 PM

194. Hey Tsiyu, I realize that the title is not yours but

it is the most widely illogical and/or inaccurate title I have ever seen on DU. Do you have any explanation for what it means?

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Response to rock (Reply #194)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 04:10 PM

197. hey Rock- it;s the title of an article that explains it, third paragraph.....

"The first NISVS report has already made national headlines because of the high prevalence of forced sex that was found. To give some perspective, the study's figures, if true, indicate that number of American women who have been raped is greater than the number who are current smokers."

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #197)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 04:55 PM

216. Then let me try to parrot it back

We're not comparing events versus events but doers (smokers) versus those that are done to (raped) - pardon the syntax. I would estimate that women that are smokers (or have been smokers) would be about 25%. So the number of women raped is greater than 25%? This just does not sound possible! Am I still not understanding (I'm easily confused - really). Thanks

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Response to rock (Reply #216)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 05:06 PM

222. Sorry I posted that wrong MY BAD

The number of women who have been raped in TOTAL equals the number of current smokers.

From the link, it is estimated that a woman is raped every 29 seconds in the US.

I will fix my above post and thanks for pointing out my mispost.



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Response to rock (Reply #216)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 05:11 PM

223. yes, 25% is actually a low ball estimate. estimates on rapist are 4-8% of the population, so....

you can understand why women feel like we ALL know some of these assholes who get away with it , and need to grow up and realize thee guys walk among us. We all know women who did not report this shit. Let;s ask ourselves why they don't.

It happens between and among people we all know. We don't have to wonder if, but rather who.

I think over 80% of that is acquaintance rape, which is more vastly underreported because women are afraid if they were ever nice to the guy, he's going to say it was consensual, and she will be nothing but ostracized and "causing drama" for family or peers for going to the police.

This is the reality we face, and we just need guys to think about it and support us when we say it happens. A lot of men have a problem dealing with it. A lot of women say nothing because their afraid their men will react with violence and they'll lose them too.
Complicated stuff.

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Response to rock (Reply #194)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 04:14 PM

200. Um...click on the link in the OP

Last edited Sun Dec 2, 2012, 05:10 PM - Edit history (1)

and it explains it.

The gist of it if I read it correctly: the number of total rape victims in the US now tops the number of people who smoke tobacco.

THIS IS AN EDIT: I read through it hastily. It is now saying that the number of rape victims exceeds the number of smokers, so that the victims of these horrific crimes now outnumber the total number who smoke.

It's a way to illustrate the prevalence of rape, and remember that all of these rape victims carry the wounds of their assault for a lifetime, so it's a real issue.

This is from the CDC's research, I believe.

It was the first link I found in my research and I thought it was a compelling enough title to raise some eyebrows and help us all realize the extent of rape and the destruction rape does to our culture.

YMMV, but it got you to click on the thread, eh?






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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #200)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 04:38 PM

209. below here someone thinks its cigarettes, not smokers, LOL. No one reads, but they comment anyway.

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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #200)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 04:58 PM

218. Got it

I'm making progress, but it still sounds like dramatically complicated way to make the point. Thanks.

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Response to rock (Reply #218)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 05:16 PM

226. Well, we have to do something dramatic

and showing just how many women are walking around out there who have been sexually assaulted is one step.

I suppose the article used the smoking figure because they view rape as a public health issue much like smoking.

An aside, sort of, there's a school near here in Whitwell that has a train car that was used to take Jews to the concentration camps in Germany during the Holocaust. The students filled it with paperclips each representing a Holocaust victim. It was a school project and people from all over the world sent them paperclips until they had one for every victim.

It is a sober reminder of the horror humans do.

This is just another way to help people wrap their minds around the outrageous number of rape victims who are our friends, co-workers, neighbors.


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Response to Tsiyu (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 04:28 PM

205. yeah

 

I was out at the bar last night. There were about 50 people smoking. IN JUST THIS ONE BAR IN OKLAHOMA CITY. This was repeated a thousand or more times across the state.

There were therefore at least 100,000 rapes in Oklahoma last nigh.

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Response to naaman fletcher (Reply #205)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 04:37 PM

208. so you'd prefer to post ignorant anecdotal stuff instead of reading the article, GEE THANKS!

Awesome story bro.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #208)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 05:23 PM

230. It's called responding to a sensationalist headline with absurdity. nt.

 

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Response to naaman fletcher (Reply #230)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 06:03 PM

249. um, you read smoker and thought it said cigarette, and think it's clever? Because you read wrong?

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #249)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 06:23 PM

254. I didn't read anything wrong

 

There is no way, under any meaningful statistical sense, that rape is more common than smoking. Smoking is something that a massive percentage of the population does multiple times every single day.

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Response to naaman fletcher (Reply #254)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 06:46 PM

262. smoking is something some people do 1-2X a week, some 60X a day. It was smokers, not cigarettes

smoked by individuals in some dump bar in Oklahoma.

An your wild guess is that it's not as common as studies have shown for 30 years. Y\

Oh yeah, convincing. Brilliant.

Ask yourself why you're so invested in miminimizing the issue to the point where you are nasty to total strangers only bcause they cite statistics. What the fuck are your issues that you'd like to shut up strangers talking about problems they face?
You should work on that shit.




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Response to bettyellen (Reply #262)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 06:52 PM

265. by any standard

 

Its a bullshit, sensationalist headline. Sensationalist headlines are counter-productive.

That is why I am interested in it.

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Response to naaman fletcher (Reply #265)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 06:57 PM

270. Sad that one of those 30% of under 11 year olds is probably someone you know.

She'd be so proud of you.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #270)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 07:40 PM

282. what are you talking about

 

I am the one supporting effective communication.

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Response to naaman fletcher (Reply #265)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 07:00 PM

273. I'm beginning to believe that there is a set process for this kind of thing...

 

a definite set of steps, to rouse the crowd.

GET their attention
SHOW a "need" that needs to be addressed/a problem that isn't going to go away
GIVE a solution of your own
EXPLAIN why other options won't work
CALL to action

If called on any of these steps, call moral and/or intellectual/"emotional" superiority, repeat previous step, and continue.

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Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #273)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 07:41 PM

283. or

 

Accuse them of being pro-rape or whatever.

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Response to naaman fletcher (Reply #283)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 07:59 PM

293. and then they repeat the last completed step, and continue...

 

I've seen it in multiple threads here at DU.

These "necessary" classes are pretty obvious...

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Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #293)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 08:02 PM

296. Please post a link where someone on DU

has said that you, personally, will be forced to attend a class

Thanks

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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #296)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 08:27 PM

301. gee...

 

Could it be that you are agreeing that those classes are a "necessity?" That would suggest you think there should be no option in those courses. Males would HAVE to attend. That takes away their free agency. Not cool. Shame on you.

Schopenhauer argument number 15 (I believe) that states something like "try and force your opponent into a tightly focused specific case." Shame on you.

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Response to a geek named Bob (Reply #301)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 08:55 PM

306. I might believe they are a necessity


but no where did I or any other poster claim that we would support a law forcing such classes.

Decent men don't have to be forced to do what's right for society.

Oh, I get that you wouldn't lower yourself to take such a class, and that you already know all there is to know about rape and, anyway, you're not a rapist. Do I have all your talking points straight?

I believe handwashing is a nec