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Sat Dec 1, 2012, 06:08 PM

Graph: College Tuition vs Wages

This speaks volumes.

31 replies, 2762 views

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Arrow 31 replies Author Time Post
Reply Graph: College Tuition vs Wages (Original post)
Ruby the Liberal Dec 2012 OP
postulater Dec 2012 #1
Liberal_in_LA Dec 2012 #2
Viking12 Dec 2012 #4
Egalitarian Thug Dec 2012 #6
Igel Dec 2012 #7
Viking12 Dec 2012 #11
HiPointDem Dec 2012 #12
Viking12 Dec 2012 #13
HiPointDem Dec 2012 #15
Viking12 Dec 2012 #16
HiPointDem Dec 2012 #17
Viking12 Dec 2012 #18
HiPointDem Dec 2012 #19
Viking12 Dec 2012 #20
HiPointDem Dec 2012 #21
Viking12 Dec 2012 #22
Jeff In Milwaukee Dec 2012 #8
geckosfeet Dec 2012 #23
Viking12 Dec 2012 #26
geckosfeet Dec 2012 #28
mythology Dec 2012 #3
Ruby the Liberal Dec 2012 #5
libdem4life Dec 2012 #9
HiPointDem Dec 2012 #14
intheflow Dec 2012 #10
central scrutinizer Dec 2012 #24
Ruby the Liberal Dec 2012 #25
geckosfeet Dec 2012 #29
darkangel218 Dec 2012 #27
AndrewRN Dec 2012 #30
darkangel218 Dec 2012 #31

Response to Ruby the Liberal (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:16 PM

1. That's just great. My daughter is graduating in three weeks

with a civil engineering degree.

Anyone know of a job opening?

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Response to Ruby the Liberal (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:25 PM

2. yep. And more financial aid doesn't seem to help, colleges just increase tuition more

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Response to Liberal_in_LA (Reply #2)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:33 PM

4. please stop with the RW taking points

Tuition rates don't have anything to with the availability financial aid. Tuition goes up as a) operational costs rise and b) states cut funding to the universities.

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Response to Viking12 (Reply #4)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:45 PM

6. Biggest pile of horse dung I've seen today, and I was with 16 horses today. n/t

 

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Response to Viking12 (Reply #4)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:48 PM

7. In general, sure.

But I know specific instances where the school I attended altered the fee structure and argued for making fees mandatory *because* then financial aid would cover them.

In '90 or '91 they instituted mandatory health insurance. It had been optional. The administration wanted it for TAs and RAs (grad student employees), but by making it mandatory for all students then financial aid would cover it and they could include the grad student health insurance under a different class of funding. They'd also increase foot traffic through student health.

Same a few years later with a technology fee. Some courses had such fees, which weren't covered by financial aid (at least not as part of the baseline funding). But by making it mandatory, the university got a lot more money and financial aid covered it.

The big push came in the late '90s, when they went for a high-fee/high-financial aid model. The reasoning was that the wealthy students could afford it. Money would be diverted from the upper 50% of students' fees, whether paid for by loans or parents, to produce grants would cover the neediest.

This conversation was explicit. It was accompanied by spreadsheets and graphs/charts showing the distribution of family incomes for students and subpopulations, projected revenue enhancement and the associated increase in grant money for the poorest students, which were (because of the way they'd reacted to the anti-affirmative-action initiative a couple of years earlier, very disproportionately non-white/non-E Asian). I was at a fair number of the meetings prior to implementation.

In the first two cases, the university managed to make operational costs mandatory instead of optional, which meant financial aid came into play. In the third case, it was neither operational cost nor reduction in state funding. It was a conscious decision to rework the funding/aid strategy implemented by the university.

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Response to Igel (Reply #7)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:05 PM

11. I've been in higher ed for 30 years as a student, employee or both.

I've witnessed the shrinking budgets first hand.

I went to college in the 80s. Health insurance was mandatory then. If you had your own insurance , great. If not you could purchase the University plan. It was a segregated fee. It was covered by aid. Tuition was still cheap. I worked as a grad teaching assistant at 3 different Universities in 3 different states throughout the 90s. Health insurance was always part of my compensation package.

Technology fees became necessary as tech demands and costs increased but state funding failed to keep up.

Differential tuition was also a response to shrinking state support.

The argument "for making fees mandatory *because* then financial aid would cover them" was to maintain access for mid/low income students. The availability of aid didn't drive the increase tuition and fee rates. The rising tuition and fees drove the demand for aid.

The idea that Universities hike fees just because they can collect more aid is a RW talking point to divert attention away from their failure to properly support public institutions.

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Response to Viking12 (Reply #11)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:11 PM

12. it's not a right-wing talking point. universities indeed do such things.

 

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #12)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:12 PM

13. Wow, such a compelling argument.

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Response to Viking12 (Reply #13)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:14 PM

15. you ignored the argument of the poster above you who actually worked in university

 

administration. I have as well, & my experience was similar to his.

why would i waste my time?

universities are run by the same corporate/finance types that spent the last 20 years defrauding the public. and sad to say, they have been run by those types for a long time, just fewer of them.

if it's one thing universities have added over the last 20 years, it's useless administrators.

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Response to Viking12 (Reply #16)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:27 PM

17. I notice you avoid acknowledging that you actually *ignored* any discussion of the issues.

 

It's so much easier to use the smear.

BTW, "tuition is too high" isn't a right-wing talking point, it's a bipartisan complaint of 90% of the population.

And as we can see from the comparison with wages, it's true. And much of it is going to empire-building and graft rather than instructors' salaries. Most university teaching is actually done by adjuncts, untenured profs and low-paid graduate assistants.

I spent a lot of my life in the university, as student, staff, assistant & instructor -- long enough to see the changes.

So you can stick your low smear tactics where the sun don't shine.

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #17)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:32 PM

18. You could actually try responding to what I wrote

or the link I provided with actual data. Ironic that I actually addressed the previous poster point-by-point and you accuse me of ignoring the issues, yet you can't even comprehend what I wrote.

I didn't say that "tuition is too high" is RW talking point. I said "the access to financial aid has driven the high cost of tuition" is a right-wing talking point. If you actually were an educated person, you'd be able to understand the difference.

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Response to Viking12 (Reply #18)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:35 PM

19. why? you didn't respond to what i wrote. Financial aid *does* help drive tuition increases

 

in the case where 'education' is mixed private/public. It helps drive medical costs in the same way. Just as any subsidy to the private sector does.

I am educated enough not to gratuitiously insult people. Perhaps you missed that class, as well as the one on economics.

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #19)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:39 PM

20. Your saying so, does not make it true.

Provide some evidence of your bald assertion (aka RW talking point).

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Response to Viking12 (Reply #20)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:54 PM

21. my assertion is that not only do you use smear tactics, but you call people names.

 

this discussion is ugly and it's over.

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #21)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:01 PM

22. I never called you any names.

I understand that you want to run away because you can't back up what you assert.

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Response to Viking12 (Reply #4)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:49 PM

8. It's its mostly b)

In some cases, state support for higher education has been cut by more than fifty percent. Politicians run on "cutting taxes" which leaves universities no alternative but to raise tuition to make up the slack. And then those same self-righteous, sanctimonious pieces of human filth stand back and accuse colleges and universities of being irresponsible.

Tuition at private schools has actually be rising at a slower rate than public schools because private school didn't have any taxpayer support to lose -- of course, they cost more to begin with. But it's to the point where with endowed scholarships, it can actually be cheaper to attend a private school than a state school.

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Response to Viking12 (Reply #4)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:30 PM

23. College loans have become the property of the commercial banking and finance industry.

When I went to school it was low interest government loans, and whatever I had to get from a bank was low interest as well. When I say low I mean 2 or 3%. And tuition at the SUNY school I went to was ridiculously affordable. Tuition at these state schools is now on par with private schools.

In any case, loans were readily available through the government, state and federal and the terms were excellent. The goal was getting people educated. Today, college loans are a lucrative business.

If salaries have declined, how are expenses going up? Or are college teachers making that much more these days? Have their salaries increased? Or is it just the banks college loan business that has increased?

The government has turned over the loan business to private industry - read that as privatized it, and the bankers are milking it for all it's worth - and that's a lot.

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Response to geckosfeet (Reply #23)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:55 PM

26. Exactly the opposite

The Federal Govt issues almost 90% of all student loans. Less than 15% of outstanding student loan debt is from private student loans.

http://www.fastweb.com/financial-aid/articles/3613-government-report-reviews-private-student-loans-and-recommends-statutory-changes

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Response to Viking12 (Reply #26)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 12:17 AM

28. Sort of. The federal government underwrites the loans to the loan "servicers".

Private or federal - in this case it is a distinction without a difference.

This process seems similar to taking out a mortgage. You apply for a mortgage at a bank and they go to an underwriter to get the cash. In this case, school financial aid offices can facilitate (no surprise there - same as it was in my day - they are plugged into the money stream) and/or you can apply online.

Federal Student Aid

In any case, the servicers of the loan set the terms and collect the debt. There are probably some federal regulatory guidelines regarding interest etc. that have been tilted further and further in favor of the servicers over the years.

A loan servicer will help you manage the repayment of your federal student loans

Sallie Mae is one such servicer.

  • Variable interest rates from 2.25% APR to 9.37% APR1

  • Fixed interest rates from 5.74% APR to 11.85% APR1


Nice.

These are in essence privatized loans. The federal government simply underwrites.

Also, from your link,

As noted by US Secretary of Education Arne Duncan, borrowing to pay for college may previously have been the exception, but now it is the rule.

Government Report Reviews Private Student Loans and Recommends Statutory Changes



ibid:

Borrowers often get confused about the differences between federal and private student loans. This may be less of a problem since July 1, 2010, when private lenders were no longer allowed to make new federal education loans. Previously, private lenders could offer both federal and private student loans. Nevertheless, several private lenders act as contractors in the federal Direct Loan program, servicing the federal loans throughout repayment.



Frankly I see these as privatized loans.

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Response to Ruby the Liberal (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:28 PM

3. Here's another one



Education may be expensive, but it sure seems to pay off in the long run economically.

http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_chart_001.htm

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Response to mythology (Reply #3)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:44 PM

5. And that $1,053 average is going a LONG way

in repaying $150,000+ in debt right out of the gate (at STATE schools), now isn't it.

$150k @ 6.5% for 10 years is $1097.75 a month.

Lets take off taxes @ 25% and say insurance is $175 a month. That $1,053 weekly gross just became $2,984 monthly net - and the student loan repayment is 36.8% of net pay.

You can't get mortgage approval for 36.8% of net pay.

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Response to Ruby the Liberal (Reply #5)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:50 PM

9. In my family, a 3rd Year Intern and a MS in engineering are struggling to pay off only the MD debts.

and barely making it. I paid off my NDEA loan with 5 years teaching. It's terrible today...don't know how they do it.

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Response to mythology (Reply #3)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:12 PM

14. "average". 40% of people working for minimum retail wages have some college, too.

 

40 years ago it was closer to 10%.

no, eduction doesn't always pay.

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Response to Ruby the Liberal (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:03 PM

10. Depressing as hell. n/t

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Response to Ruby the Liberal (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:50 PM

24. what are the units on the y-axis?

that graph is really misleading. Looks like something you would see in USA Today or Fox News.

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Response to central scrutinizer (Reply #24)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:04 PM

25. If you don't know what you are looking at, how can you call it misleading?

The vertical axis is a baseline, using the year 2000 from starting point 100. Just like it says.

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Response to central scrutinizer (Reply #24)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 12:34 AM

29. Looks like relative percentage normalized to 100 at the x axis.

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Response to Ruby the Liberal (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:24 PM

27. Ugh this is scary

I'm going to be 40k in debt when I finish my nursing school

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Response to darkangel218 (Reply #27)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 04:17 AM

30. Only 9K for me...

I was lucky to get into my local CC's nursing program my first try due to my very high GPA. Plus it was (what I consider nowdays) very reasonable. Borrowed $9000 for the 2 years to complete the program and now paying it back $100 a month for 10 years. Going to try to pay it off much sooner then that but as long as I can pay the $100 a month I will be ok. I think my interest rate was around 5.5% if I remember correctly.

I know that some private schools can get you in right away - but will cost a small fortune. I couldn't imagine going 50K+ in debt for a degree.

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Response to AndrewRN (Reply #30)

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