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Sat Dec 1, 2012, 04:15 PM

No, I will not feel gender guilt

The discussion on rape has desended into a situation where no matter what; the men of DU should feel male gender guilt.

I'm not having any more of it.

Enough.

118 replies, 10471 views

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Arrow 118 replies Author Time Post
Reply No, I will not feel gender guilt (Original post)
Earth_First Dec 2012 OP
CaliforniaPeggy Dec 2012 #1
WilliamPitt Dec 2012 #2
hlthe2b Dec 2012 #3
Earth_First Dec 2012 #4
bettyellen Dec 2012 #10
TorchTheWitch Dec 2012 #117
myrna minx Dec 2012 #5
salin Dec 2012 #9
WilliamPitt Dec 2012 #22
salin Dec 2012 #29
crazyjoe Dec 2012 #41
Tsiyu Dec 2012 #67
noamnety Dec 2012 #30
salin Dec 2012 #95
Squinch Dec 2012 #87
salin Dec 2012 #97
Squinch Dec 2012 #100
Odin2005 Dec 2012 #94
salin Dec 2012 #101
Confusious Dec 2012 #12
gollygee Dec 2012 #14
bettyellen Dec 2012 #16
Confusious Dec 2012 #24
bettyellen Dec 2012 #27
Confusious Dec 2012 #33
bettyellen Dec 2012 #34
Confusious Dec 2012 #36
bettyellen Dec 2012 #43
Confusious Dec 2012 #50
bettyellen Dec 2012 #51
Confusious Dec 2012 #53
bettyellen Dec 2012 #57
Tsiyu Dec 2012 #65
Confusious Dec 2012 #69
bettyellen Dec 2012 #72
Confusious Dec 2012 #74
Tsiyu Dec 2012 #88
Omaha Steve Dec 2012 #52
Confusious Dec 2012 #58
bettyellen Dec 2012 #76
Confusious Dec 2012 #79
Confusious Dec 2012 #70
Confusious Dec 2012 #17
bettyellen Dec 2012 #19
Confusious Dec 2012 #20
bettyellen Dec 2012 #25
Confusious Dec 2012 #31
bettyellen Dec 2012 #35
Confusious Dec 2012 #37
Tsiyu Dec 2012 #63
gollygee Dec 2012 #23
Confusious Dec 2012 #26
grantcart Dec 2012 #91
redqueen Dec 2012 #15
white_wolf Dec 2012 #28
obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #77
grantcart Dec 2012 #84
Odin2005 Dec 2012 #93
noamnety Dec 2012 #6
La Lioness Priyanka Dec 2012 #40
gollygee Dec 2012 #7
Confusious Dec 2012 #39
gollygee Dec 2012 #59
Confusious Dec 2012 #62
gollygee Dec 2012 #71
Confusious Dec 2012 #73
bettyellen Dec 2012 #75
Confusious Dec 2012 #78
bettyellen Dec 2012 #80
Confusious Dec 2012 #82
antigone382 Dec 2012 #105
bettyellen Dec 2012 #8
Sheldon Cooper Dec 2012 #11
Earth_First Dec 2012 #13
Egalitarian Thug Dec 2012 #18
bettyellen Dec 2012 #21
Squinch Dec 2012 #86
Egalitarian Thug Dec 2012 #116
La Lioness Priyanka Dec 2012 #32
DavidDvorkin Dec 2012 #38
MotherPetrie Dec 2012 #42
On the Road Dec 2012 #44
Marrah_G Dec 2012 #45
Tsiyu Dec 2012 #46
Chemisse Dec 2012 #47
bettyellen Dec 2012 #54
treestar Dec 2012 #64
one_voice Dec 2012 #56
alcibiades_mystery Dec 2012 #48
Kalidurga Dec 2012 #49
mythology Dec 2012 #81
Kalidurga Dec 2012 #90
bettyellen Dec 2012 #110
savebigbird Dec 2012 #55
CrispyQ Dec 2012 #60
savebigbird Dec 2012 #61
malaise Dec 2012 #66
redqueen Dec 2012 #68
JustJoe Dec 2012 #83
99Forever Dec 2012 #85
grantcart Dec 2012 #89
Odin2005 Dec 2012 #92
etherealtruth Dec 2012 #96
Ken Burch Dec 2012 #98
StarryNite Dec 2012 #99
Odin2005 Dec 2012 #102
StarryNite Dec 2012 #104
IDoMath Dec 2012 #103
mercuryblues Dec 2012 #106
Nye Bevan Dec 2012 #107
bettyellen Dec 2012 #108
Democracyinkind Dec 2012 #118
Jamaal510 Dec 2012 #109
cherokeeprogressive Dec 2012 #111
StarryNite Dec 2012 #112
cherish44 Dec 2012 #113
Blue_In_AK Dec 2012 #114
DemocratsForProgress Dec 2012 #115

Response to Earth_First (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 04:19 PM

1. I agree: it is enough. n/t

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Response to Earth_First (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 04:20 PM

2. If that's what you've taken from the discussion,

then I'm even more depressed than I was before.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Reply #2)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 04:21 PM

3. ^^this^^^

Your avatar says it all.... sigh

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Response to WilliamPitt (Reply #2)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 04:23 PM

4. WP you are smarter than that...

You know damn well that this is not the only thing I have taken away from this discussion.

However, you are not being honest with yourself if you do not see that gender guilt is most certainly being introduced into the conversation...

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Response to Earth_First (Reply #4)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 04:35 PM

10. What was your other take away from the discussion then?

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Response to Earth_First (Reply #4)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 08:23 AM

117. It's only introduction is by men here

that don't want to bother their "beautiful minds" thinking about rape. After all, it's not something men generally have bothered to think about before seeing as they never had to change their behavior because of it, fear it, nor live their lives according to how prevalent it is. I'm willing to bet though that if you had to live your life that way while knowing that 1 in 5 of your gender would be traumatized by rape you'd be making damn sure that every thread here would be railing about how to stop it.

No one has asked you to feel guilt nor expected you to. If you're feeling it, then perhaps that's a good thing seeing as guilt tends to foster understanding and change outlook. It's about time that men bothered their minds about what life is in a world full of rape for over half the world's population. Had they ever bothered before then we wouldn't be living in such a world, now would we? But that's not something you want to bother your mind about since it's not something that is ever likely to effect you personally for no other reason than the privilege of your gender.


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Response to WilliamPitt (Reply #2)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 04:24 PM

5. +1

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Response to myrna minx (Reply #5)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 04:33 PM

9. can I ask a dumb question?

I have been off line for a number of days. Get back on line and see the plethora of threads about rape - but I have no idea what particular item (was there a news event or just a particularly provocative OP) kicked this all up?

I have read some of the threads, but as a survivor, I found some of the directions within the discussions pulled out some heavy emotions so I backed out. But I am curious as to what I missed.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Reply #22)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 05:09 PM

29. thanks.

context helps.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Reply #22)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 05:40 PM

41. I just peaked at the thread your linking to, how f*in absurd. Really?

 


Do you really think that you can teach people not to rape??? Rape is a violent act, and if your enough of a fuckin animal that you would actually rape someone, I don't think a class on "rape is bad" is going to help.
Do you think they should offer classes on "do not kill people" too? Ya, that will bring down the murder rate.
Just fuckin stupid.

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Response to crazyjoe (Reply #41)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:46 PM

67. So you're saying there is absolutely NOTHING you personally

will or can do to help eradicate rape?

It's a lost cause?

Glad Joe Biden doesn't agree with you...




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Response to salin (Reply #9)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 05:10 PM

30. The basic progression

1. DUer makes unwelcomed and offtopic sexually explicit comments to another DUer.
2. People here get pissed off.
3. DUer responds not with an apology, but instead by running around to different threads posting offensive words until he gets banned.
4. People aligned on different sides of the banning. You know that deal with the Joe Paterno statue being removed from Penn State, and some people being offended by the removal of it? It was like that, but on a miniscale. (harassment, not rape, banning from a website, not jail time.
5. Discussion ensues about rape culture and to what degree acceptance of harassment encourages a rape culture - and also whether rape culture exists.
6. Another DUer steps forward to say yes, it exists, and I know because was guilty of raping drunk women when I was younger, and among my group we didn't acknowledge it was rape.

Now we have people refusing to acknowledge that it is culturally acceptable in some circles (frat boys in that case) to "take advantage of" (i.e. rape) drunk women, others refusing to acknowledge that "taking advantage of" a drunk woman is rape if she's coherent enough to talk, people offended at the idea that we need to work to change the culture instead of focusing all efforts on self-defense techniques for women.

I'm sure I left out a lot.

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Response to noamnety (Reply #30)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:34 PM

95. yikes. Seriously.

Thank you for the summary, and I am glad that I have missed most of it.

But also glad to understand the dynamics of the discussion. The valence of emotions in some of the few threads that I did get pulled into, was interesting, but at times very disturbing. The context you post at least gives it some... er... context.

Thanks and peace,

salin

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Response to salin (Reply #9)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:49 PM

87. There was also a post that was eventually self deleted in which some guy, probably

getting his sick rocks off, told about all the drunk and unconscious women he had had sex with when he was a young man, and he wondered if he was a rapist.

Many of the responses to that post were pretty horrifying in many ways, and I think some of what you are seeing is shell shock that these attitudes are still so rampant.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #87)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:40 PM

97. That was one of the few threads that I first stumbled upon,

and started a response, but got too emotional and clicked the back button - deciding not to engage in the discussion. I found some of it quite disturbing.

Thanks for your response.

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Response to salin (Reply #97)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:45 PM

100. Amazing what crawls around under the surface, isn't it?

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Response to salin (Reply #9)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:28 PM

94. A long-time poster got banned for sexually harassing another poster in the Lounge.

And also using misogynistic language in another lounge thread involving razors. The usual suspects whined about the "Word Police".

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #94)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:46 PM

101. And clearly kicked up a shitstorm that appears to have

a sort of performance art aspect to it per demonstrating a point that was not intentionally trying to be made.

Many years ago I was a lounge lizard. Some very ugly dynamics emerged that spilled out into other areas. Given your report, I will say I have no regrets for not having visited there in a very, very long time. Sounds very ugly.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Reply #2)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 04:38 PM

12. I've learned we live in a "rape culture"

Within feminism, rape culture is a concept used to describe a culture in which rape and sexual violence are common and in which prevalent attitudes, norms, practices, and media normalize, excuse, tolerate, or even condone rape.(direct from Wikipedia)

Which is to say, if it's common, all men rape and all men should feel guilty about it.

Unless you have a different definition of "common" like "always" or "sometimes"

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Response to Confusious (Reply #12)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 04:41 PM

14. Common because it happens often - there are lots of victims

but obviously each rapist has a number of victims. It's a minority of men, but the culture is affected by it because the crime is so common.

Is this really what people have been thinking? I've read over and over again in these threads that it's a minority of men.

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Response to gollygee (Reply #14)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 04:45 PM

16. I've read over and over again in these threads that it's a minority of men, ALSO. OP is BS.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #16)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 05:04 PM

24. Yea, well, like I said

With all the accusations flying and the venom released, it's not the impression I get.

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Response to Confusious (Reply #24)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 05:08 PM

27. Impression? So the actual words used don't matter- just this fuzzy impression you get?

It appears a lot of men here are posting based on hurt feelings instead of actually reading what people actually post. '

I have never seen so much basic stuff be misquoted and twisted by people who respond to it.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #27)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 05:14 PM

33. I thought you were suppose be understanding about other peoples feelings

Does that not apply because I'm male?

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Response to Confusious (Reply #33)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 05:17 PM

34. Why would I let you off the hook for misrepresenting post made about men? There are about 6-7

posters throwing out false accusations about this, and it's spread to other people.....
Im sorry, this is bullshit, and the bunch of you owe people here an apology for misrepresenting what was posted.
Understand THOSE feelings, okay?

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #34)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 05:23 PM

36. Throwing out what false accusations?

Like what?

Maybe the other people are as sick of this as I am.

Better hurry or you'll loose control Robespierre.

Oh, and I guess the answer is "yes, I can ignore your feelings becuase you are a man."

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Response to Confusious (Reply #36)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 06:02 PM

43. you learned here " all men rape and should feel guilty about it"

what they should feel guilty about is posting bullshit.
What your cohorts feel sick of- at least half of it's based on inflammatory bullshit they post themselves willfully misrepresenting what was said here. It's a pathetic game of telephone where lies and gross exaggerations get posted over and over again.
There's a group here who are addicted to licking their imaginary ego wounds, and it's amusing to watch you all squirm.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #43)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 06:50 PM

50. A. I have no cohorts

B. Something else please, my post doesn't count. I already know about it, and it brought you out of the woodwork.

C. You certainly lived up to your other posts, full of venom.

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Response to Confusious (Reply #50)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 06:56 PM

51. and I'm not one of the "usual suspects" you call out, LOL.

B) yeah- your post was nonsense, didn't count for anything.

C) Thanks! I've gotten so many pats on the back this weekend.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #51)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 06:59 PM

53. Yes you are one of the usual suspects

Like I said, I had you on ignore.

After reading quite a few of your posts, I decided you weren't someone I really wanted to talk to or associate with.

But I'm a nice person, so I give people chances. Yours is over.

I was right the first time.

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Response to Confusious (Reply #53)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:03 PM

57. great, because I'm hoping your cohorts ignore all of us, so we can converse without being misquoted

and you'll be spared so many pity parties. It really is for the best!

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #57)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:43 PM

65. + 1000000000



This OP is a lie.

I am so sick of people derailing the very horrific issue of rape with these lies and pity parties.

It's embarassing to the good guys here to read this crap.

But why do some people do this? I can't figure it out at all. Everyone can read for themselves that NONE of the rape threads said "all men are guilty." They just make up these false accusations out of thin air and LIES.







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Response to Tsiyu (Reply #65)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:49 PM

69. I am one of the good guys

Unless of course you mean only people who agree with you, then I'm not.

It's like sitting through a lecture about everything you know already. You wonder why the person is telling you this over and over again.

Does the person think you're an idiot?

Or maybe, because you happen to be a male, that person must think you do this.

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Response to Confusious (Reply #69)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:10 PM

72. I lectured you about posting lies here, and you knew that you were doing it- really?

and this makes you a good guy how exactly?

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #72)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:11 PM

74. Did someone say something?

It wasn't a reference to you, and I've told no lies.

I told you my opinion, you don't want to accept that.

Not much to do.

If you think one post makes a person, well, that's pretty sad.

Par for the course for you though.

You can respond or not, I don't really care.

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Response to Confusious (Reply #69)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:52 PM

88. Here's a clue from the Clue Wagon




Boldfaced, so you can see it real good:

Rape is at EPIDEMIC levels in this nation. EPIDEMIC LEVELS. The CDC - hardly a feminist outpost - calls the prevalence of rape a significant public health issue in the US.

Rape in the military is TWICE that of civilian rape, and 46% of the victims being treated for trauma related to military rape are MEN


If you don"t feel compelled to care about women, how about a little compassion for those guys? If everyone was doing all they could, do you think we'd be seeing these horrific statistics?

I don't understand why some guys feel like it's not their problem. To me, as Democrat and an American, all significant problems in this nation are MY problems, too.

If 100% of rape victims were male, I would post the very same amount and with an equal measure of compassion and hope that ALL OF US TOGETHER would do our utmost to eradicate rape of males.

Many of you think you have nothing to offer, you're not part of the problem, we don't live in a culture that promotes rape according to you. One in six women and one in 71 men might disagree with you.

I am just so glad President Obama and Vice President Biden are taking this issue VERY seriously.

As I said in my own thread: I wish some of the men and women on DU would follow the lead of these men they re-elected.

Neither Obama nor Biden has dropped the issue by saying "hey, we're guys and we don't rape so - not our problem."

And PLEASE post a link where all men were told to feel guilty over rape. PLEASE.


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Response to bettyellen (Reply #43)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 06:58 PM

52. Have you ever been raped?


You might feel differently about rape if it happened to you! Your attitude sounds kind of like "legitimate rape" way of thinking.

OS

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Response to Omaha Steve (Reply #52)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:05 PM

58. Yea, I guess I knew that was coming

It was either that or "rape apologist"

No, I haven't been raped. I was beaten by my stepmother for 10 years, until I got too big, and then she verbally abused me. Of course I was also picked on and beaten up by pretty much everyone during those years, including teachers. It's not rape, but a violation nonetheless, which, after 30 years, I'm still seeing shrinks for.

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Response to Confusious (Reply #58)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:20 PM

76. that is truly horrible. I am sorry this happened to you.

and I truly do hope you're healing well. I know it's not an easy journey.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #76)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:27 PM

79. She apologized for both before she died 10 years ago

I still have the letter.

Everyone can change.

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Response to Omaha Steve (Reply #52)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:50 PM

70. I'm waiting for your snappy rejoinder Steve. nt

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Response to gollygee (Reply #14)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 04:46 PM

17. With the number of accusations being thrown around

And the venom unleashed, I figured it was a majority.

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Response to Confusious (Reply #17)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 04:49 PM

19. so you didn't actually read any of the posts, and post w/ out rage based on nothing read here- just

like this OP. Outrage based on nothing posted here. Good going!

You figured wrong, as did the OP.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #19)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 04:59 PM

20. I read the posts, and it was pretty discouraging

Not for the reasons you probably think.

I'm also not going to create another OP, because I'm pretty sick of it all.

Again, not for your reasons.

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Response to Confusious (Reply #20)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 05:04 PM

25. you say you misread the posts- figuring people accused a majority. As did the OP.

Sorry if I confused you two, but that's not nearly as wrong headed as the mistake you BOTH made here.

I guess you have great reasons for not clarifying these "other reasons" but your take so far isnt based on anything that WAS posted, so I guess you can skip it.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #25)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 05:12 PM

31. I never said anything about misreading any posts

I would thank you not to put words in my mouth.

But of course, it's expected you would try. As I said, I read the posts.

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Response to Confusious (Reply #31)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 05:19 PM

35. you "figured it was a majority" = not reading the posts in any detail

otherwise, you'd be posting based on content you read, not what you felt you might have read.
Huge difference.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #35)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 05:26 PM

37. Oh I read the posts

How could I not? Shit, I had you on ignore. You're living up to the posts I read.

With all the misogyny here, it must be true.

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Response to Confusious (Reply #37)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:38 PM

63. ....



Nothing to see here....move along..........

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021913276




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Response to Confusious (Reply #17)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 05:04 PM

23. You figured that despite the opposite being said over and over again?

That must have taken some work.

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Response to gollygee (Reply #23)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 05:06 PM

26. The usual suspects show up

It really isn't that hard. Hell, an OP was created about it.

With all the misogyny on this board, it must be true.

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Response to Confusious (Reply #12)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:13 PM

91. It is appropriate to use the term "rape culture" not because all of the males are complicit but

because all of the perpetrators are male.

If there wasn't something in the culture that would make it in somewhat permissible then you would not find that virtually 100% of those conducting sexual assault as being male:

I don't find focusing on male behavior to be particularly over stated, nor do I feel personally responsible for it although it is somewhat embarrassing when typical male locker room banter is brought out into general discussion under the assumption that it will be warmly received in a non locker room environment.


When women start to account for say 30% of all sexual assaults instead of 99% then I think we could begin to ask folks to stop speculating on general male behavior that might contribute to a 'culture of rape'. Given that it is almost universally a problem of one sex against another it is fair to ask if, among the other problems, language and general use of language doesn't somehow contribute to a culture where sexual assault is more likely likely to be conducted by one sex over another by a factor of 100:1.



http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/SOO.PDF

In 1994 victims reported about 1 rape/sexual assault victimization of a female victim for every 270 females
in the general population; for males, the rate was substantially lower, with about 1 rape/sexual assault of a male
victim for every 5,000 male residents age 12 or older.

Per capita rates of rape/sexual assault were found to be highest among residents age 16 to 19, low-income
residents, and urban residents. There were no significant differences in the rate of rape/sexual assault among racial
groups.

Overall, an estimated 91% of the victims of rape and sexual assault were female. Nearly 99% of the offenders
they described in single-victim incidents were male.




If it wasn't a cultural issue then you could argue that it was entirely biological but you find wildly differing rates of rape, in part due to wildly different cultural acceptance of reporting rape.

But given two culturally very culturally similar countries like Canada and the US it is difficult to understand why the US has rapes at a rate of 30 times that of Canada.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics

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Response to WilliamPitt (Reply #2)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 04:42 PM

15. Welcome to noticing this shit.

It's so much fun.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #15)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 05:09 PM

28. Yeah, it really drives home the old saying about ignorance being bliss.

Of course, if you ignore the problem then it never ends so we can't do that, but god does it get depressing at times. I'm sure it's even worse for women since they actually have to put up with the negative consequences of patriarchy in our society.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Reply #2)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:22 PM

77. Seriously, right?

I don't see male posters being attacked for being male -- they are right in the threads with us!

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Response to WilliamPitt (Reply #2)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:44 PM

84. I am 100% certain that if you would simply prepare a well thought out OP for

Meta that it would provide a transcendent moment for all of DU to engage in quiet self examination and that a spontaneous moment of shared epiphany would spread thru all of the forums on the issue of gender sensitivity and the need for consideration in, among other things, using some particular care in choosing euphemisms for human genitalia.


( just hoping to trigger another fun critique of Meta, although an actual WP thread in Meta would be a bonus )

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Response to WilliamPitt (Reply #2)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:24 PM

93. The misogynists are getting defensive.

It's quite predictable:

Feminist: I think we as a society need to have a discussion about X
Misogynist: Why do you hate men???



It reminds me of a cartoon showing a preacher hitting an Atheist on the head with a cross. The Atheist, getting sick of being hit, grabs the cross and breaks it in half. The outraged preacher then says "Why are you so hateful???". The misogynists are having the same attitude as the preacher, and show the same lack of introspective insight into their own behaviors and motivations.

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Response to Earth_First (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 04:27 PM

6. guilt? No. A recognition of cultural truths, yes.

It's like a white guy with black kids teaching them they need to be extra careful around white police.

The dad isn't saying "all white people suck and I need to feel guilty because I'm white and therefore I suck." He's educating his kids about the reality of race and power dynamics in this country.

I would not have a problem with cops having mandatory training about the law and avoiding racial profiling.

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Response to noamnety (Reply #6)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 05:31 PM

40. yes, group privilege is an understanding that some people are treated unequally

it doesn't mean that all men are bad or rapists or bad people. however i am suspect of those who cannot even have a conversation about discrimination, privilege and cultural bias.


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Response to Earth_First (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 04:28 PM

7. What?

If you haven't raped anyone or aided anyone else in raping someone, you should not feel guilty at all after reading those threads.

How many times did people say that it's a minority of men, that most men don't rape. We say that, over and over, to make it clear that it isn't about all men, and you STILL take it personally? I don't get that.

Why do you take it personally? If it isn't about you, it isn't about you.

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Response to gollygee (Reply #7)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 05:31 PM

39. If you're not a criminal

You should have no problem with the government snooping on you.

Your sentence just reminded me of that.

If you haven't raped anyone or aided anyone else in raping someone, you should not feel guilty at all after reading those threads.

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Response to Confusious (Reply #39)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:17 PM

59. That is not at all parallel

If you are not a criminal, you shouldn't feel guilty when you read about someone else's crimes. THAT is parallel.

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Response to gollygee (Reply #59)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:35 PM

62. Nope, no guilt. Just annoyance.

It's like sitting through a lecture about everything you know already. You wonder why the person is telling you this over and over again.

Does the person think you're an idiot?

Or maybe, because you happen to be a male, that person must think you do this.

Maybe I should start multiple threads to women about not beating their kids. I know that happens from personal experience.

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Response to Confusious (Reply #62)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:02 PM

71. Feel free to start a thread about child abuse

That's an important issue.

We are speaking to a huge group of people, and it was kicked off by people using sexist language, and ended up morphing into discussions about rape. And then, as happens at DU, threads seem to multiply and we end up with a trillion threads about whatever the current Topic of the Week is.

But it isn't meant to be personal to any person in particular, except maybe the one or two people who posted rape apologist threads. But you weren't one of them. Most men don't rape, and beyond that most men would stand up if they saw a woman in danger of rape, and we do recognize that. We of course aren't worried about those people so when we talk about the things we are worried about, that isn't the focus of the discussion. Although it was brought up over and over again that we are well aware that it is a minority of men.

If people (men and women) didn't keep posting that rape jokes or sexist jokes and language aren't a big deal, there probably wouldn't have ended up being so many threads, because every time someone says that, it is going to prompt someone to post a new thread. And obviously the men who feel it's a personal attack against them also post new threads when they see something that bothers them. That's how the threads multiply. They don't multiply because people feel the need to tell you (either you being DU men in general or you specifically) that rape is wrong over and over again. They're just responding to something they read, as the OP of this thread was a response to something the OP read.

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Response to gollygee (Reply #71)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:10 PM

73. Thanks for being nice

It also seems to get pretty nasty and to me, quite discouraging.

I'm pretty sick of it all the way around.

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Response to Confusious (Reply #62)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:16 PM

75. we got more "Not me" or "I raped" threads from men... yet you complain about women lecturing you?

Men posted more self centered bullshit about this subject all the while claiming they don't need to think about, learn anything or rationally discuss it. Makes no sense unless it was merely trolling to disrupt.

And you're fed up?

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #75)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:23 PM

78. Why do we need to learn anything if most men don't do it?

They must understand already.



"rationally discuss it"

You've shown yourself willing to dismiss my opinion, so discuss it with you or listen to you, I think not.

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Response to Confusious (Reply #78)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:31 PM

80. Ergo? Ha ha... BULLSHIT - no one said most men do it-

Because it's NOT a majority of men who do it (merely 1 in 5 women who are victimized) , you think no one should be educated about it?

You call that - (making up FAKE conclusions when people here, including me - said the OPPOSITE) rational?
I'm really sorry you think that your last post is rational or reasoned. You are putting fake words in my mouth, and it;s fucking offensive.
It's nonsense, and you have no standing at all to make these claims. I hate to tell you, this is a just a reflection of your own thought processes, and has no basis in reality. Fucking sad to see here.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #80)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:35 PM

82. Really, like you put in mine?

Is that "fucking offensive" to you?

Like I said, my opinion, you don't want to accept that.

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Response to Confusious (Reply #78)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:22 PM

105. In one study, one in sixteen college men admitted to rape.

That is a large number. I refuse to believe that the percentage of irredeemably sick men in our society is that high, especially when you examine rape in a global context. In India, it is abundantly clear that rape is often a punishment for women who step out of line. In Cambodia, it is abundantly clear that women are regarded as property and can be sold into sex slavery as little girls. In Sub-Saharan Africa, it is abundantly clear that rape is a common part of life for women who are not expected to have any control over their sexual and reproductive lives. If rape is obviously tied to larger social forces and ideologies of gender in these places, why is it so difficult to admit that similar cultural factors are in play here?

And when the rates of rape are still so incredibly high (one in six women, one in thirty-three men), when the context of rape is so frequently someone the victim trusts (between 80 and 90% of all caases), when mechanisms for enforcing that rape are still incredibly low, how can you question the need to learn or understand more? How can you possibly say that we are repeating the message about respect, boundaries, and gender equality too frequently? How can you possibly get impatient with the women who are trying to stop their own victimization by addressing the social factors that contribute to it?

I'm sorry this is like sitting in a boring classroom for you. That classroom is every woman's daily life, and the lecture never ends.

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Response to Earth_First (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 04:29 PM

8. Link?

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Response to Earth_First (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 04:35 PM

11. LOL

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Response to Earth_First (Original post)


Response to Earth_First (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 04:46 PM

18. I remember hearing this from my great grandfather talking about black people.

 

Just sad.

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #18)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 05:01 PM

21. I remember my cousin saying this about his future wife, LOL.

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #18)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:45 PM

86. THAT is a pretty profound observation. Of course you are right, and it puts the

"it has nothing to do with me" comments into the right perspective.

Yes, we are all part of the culture that contributes to the mistreatment of women. (I am a woman.)

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Response to Squinch (Reply #86)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 04:22 AM

116. It just makes me sad that in issue after issue, decade after decade, we have to re-fight

 

the same battles over and over and over.

"Well of course that was wrong, but this is completely different!"

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Response to Earth_First (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 05:12 PM

32. lol

such crap

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Response to Earth_First (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 05:27 PM

38. Exactly.

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Response to Earth_First (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 06:01 PM

42. Well, aren't you courageous!

 

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Response to Earth_First (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 06:02 PM

44. After Dipping into a Couple of Those Threads

I have stayed away from the whole issue. Nothing good comes out of that kind of 'discussion.'

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Response to Earth_First (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 06:07 PM

45. I'm sorry that is all you have gotten from the conversation.

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Response to Earth_First (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 06:17 PM

46. If you feel guilt ask yourself why

it must be self-inflicted, because nowhere in any post have I heard anyone say "all men should feel guilty about rape."

What I did read was a blog post, written by a man, which posited that men can help reduce the frequency of rape by drawing a firm line in the sand when it comes to confronting demeaning and violence-tinged comments and behaviors toward women. The blog also made it clear that only a very small percentage of men rape. Not "all men are guilty."

That was it.

The sum total.

And yet the male-penned blog was deemed sexist Guess the guy who wrote it hates men?

I guess asking for men's help is really going out on a limb, huh? Asking for a little more awareness, a little more vigilance, a little more standing up for what's right is gender bashing? Who knew?

I thought it was putting confidence in men that they would be helpful; never did I imagine asking for help would be termed an insult to some men.

I realize rape is a tough subject for many - men and women. But making false accusations like the one in your OP only derail the conversation to personal pity parties that are unfounded and very, very sad.

I agree with those who say that a "help us combat rape" post turning into another reason to lie about women's attitudes on DU is really pathetic and makes me sad.

I will NOT be told to "shut up about rape- you're making me uncomfortable." There is no reason for a decent man to feel any discomfort over this topic. Decent men WANT to discuss ways they can help.

The rest of you "offended men" would rather strain at a gnat and swallow a camel, IMO


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Response to Earth_First (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 06:41 PM

47. Any time the topic degrades into 'men this' and 'women that' it is uncomfortable and divisive.

Both men and women care about equality between the genders (granted, not all men, and not all women, for that matter, but most).

Imagine how people would feel if someone here said 'a lot of black people are rapists' and 'how do you know what your black friends do when you are not around?' and 'Black people rape a lot more than you think.'

We would all be outraged by such racist remarks, and yet people here have said the same things about men.

It is divisive to treat one gender like the enemy; it does not further our goal of equality between genders. In fact, by widening the gap between us, it brings us a step backward.

So I sympathize with the OP and wish people here would refrain from insulting male DU members by assuming they are casual about the seriousness of rape.

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Response to Chemisse (Reply #47)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:00 PM

54. it was some men here, who refused to hear ANY discussion without insisting they were being accused

of either being rapist or rapists' friends.... nothing could be further from the truth.
sorry, they were misquoting people left and right and posting inflammatory bullshit. the problems emanate from a very small but vocal group of (mostly) men.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #54)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:38 PM

64. agree, there are those willing to jump right to that conclusion

as soon as any such subject comes up. There is a pre-determined stance there.

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Response to Chemisse (Reply #47)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:01 PM

56. Nice.

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Response to Earth_First (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 06:43 PM

48. So fucking dumb

Ugh.

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Response to Earth_First (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 06:45 PM

49. I would so unrec this if I could.

But, since I can't I will get out my teeny tiny violin. You aren't a victim here and acting like you are is actually kind of disgusting. It isn't up to other people to avoid hurting your feelings when discussing a serious topic. If you feel guilty perhaps you have issues you don't want to think about or talk about. I haven't seen one person say that men should feel guilty or that men are collectively responsible for rape. Yet, women are collectively told that they need to be responsible for their safety and if something happens anyway, the bar of responsibility just gets higher. Most rapes are done by someone the woman know and has possibly even dated. Do you suggest women don't ever talk to men to avoid knowing any that might rape her?

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Response to Kalidurga (Reply #49)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:31 PM

81. Except there isn't room for discussion on this according to a number of people

Look at who is tossing out name calling in this discussion. I see a lot of people saying anybody who isn't getting the pitchforks and torches being called misogynists or rape apologists. If the insults stop, perhaps a reasonable discussion can occur.

I will agree that nobody has specifically said that men are collectively responsible for rape. But that's the obvious implication of all the posts saying that men allow a rape culture to go on, or that men need to stop other men from raping. To me, that is absolutely saying that as a whole men are responsible for rape. I can't think of another possible explanation for saying that men need to stop rape culture if we aren't the cause.

As for your contention that women shouldn't have to be responsible for their safety, I don't expect to get into a car accident when I drive, but I still put my seatbelt on because if I do get into an accident it could save my life. I don't expect to have my stuff stolen, but I don't leave my computer sitting on the front porch either. I don't think it's offensive to say that people should be aware of their surroundings no matter the circumstances. I think it's prudent, and I disagree vehemently that it's blaming the victim. But if I say that, I will be labeled a misogynist.

And of course most rapes are committed by people known to the victim. As far as I know all crime is more likely to be committed by people known to the victim. Most crimes are one of opportunity. People known to the victim will have more opportunities.

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Response to mythology (Reply #81)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:03 PM

90. How not to get raped.

1. Make sure you aren't born to a man who will rape you.

2. Make sure your mother doesn't remarry a man who will rape you.

3. Make sure your neighbor isn't a man who rapes girls.

4. Don't date a rapist.

5. Don't go out at night even if you work at night.

6. Don't drink.

7. Make sure when you see a male to glare at him, so he knows you aren't his next victim.

8. Don't live in an apartment building.

9. Don't live in a house alone or ever be in a house alone. Especially if there is a man in that house.

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Response to mythology (Reply #81)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:52 PM

110. men are denying a rape culture exists, claim their pain (at merely being asked to acknowledge it)

is somehow MORE valid than the discussion about rape- and they thread jack and turn it into a discussion of THEIR HURT FEEELINGS.
Sorry, but the ones that do that are self centered assholes and I don;t care one whit about their hurt feelings.
They can deal with the implications they and you imagine on their own from now on.
There is room to discuss this at DU- like here, their pity party thread.
But should it disrupt every single *solution oriented* thread - post denying it's an issue of discussion? No, it's deliberately disruptive OT bullshit.

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Response to Earth_First (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:00 PM

55. I'm sorry that you feel as though males have been demonized through all of this,

but it is EVERYONE'S issue. We're all victims when basic human rights are violated.

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Response to savebigbird (Reply #55)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:18 PM

60. That was the most reasoned response on this thread.

Welcome to DU, savebigbird!

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Response to CrispyQ (Reply #60)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:25 PM

61. *Cyber Wave*

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Response to Earth_First (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:45 PM

66. You have my support and I am female

Rape is a horrible crime but there are hundreds of millions of men who have never raped anyone.

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Response to malaise (Reply #66)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:48 PM

68. Shocking. nt

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Response to Earth_First (Original post)


Response to Earth_First (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:44 PM

85. Personally...

... I also have had my fill of the subject.


Trash This thread is your friend.

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Response to Earth_First (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:02 PM

89. Given that the incidence of females rapeing males is virtually nonexistent,

I don't find focusing on male behavior to be particularly over stated, nor do I feel personally responsible for it although it is somewhat embarassing when typical male locker room banter is brought out into general discussion under the assumption that it will be warmly received in a non locker room environment.


When women start to account for say 30% of all sexual assaults instead of 99% then I think we could begin to ask folks to stop speculating on general male behavior that might contribute to a 'culture of rape'. Given that it is almost universally a problem of one sex against another it is fair to ask if, among the other problems, language and general use of language doesn't somehow contribute to a culture where sexual assault is more likely likely to be conducted by one sex over another by a factor of 100:1.



http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/SOO.PDF

In 1994 victims reported about 1 rape/sexual assault victimization of a female victim for every 270 females
in the general population; for males, the rate was substantially lower, with about 1 rape/sexual assault of a male
victim for every 5,000 male residents age 12 or older.

Per capita rates of rape/sexual assault were found to be highest among residents age 16 to 19, low-income
residents, and urban residents. There were no significant differences in the rate of rape/sexual assault among racial
groups.

Overall, an estimated 91% of the victims of rape and sexual assault were female. Nearly 99% of the offenders
they described in single-victim incidents were male.

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Response to Earth_First (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:17 PM

92. I had the same attitude, then a friend of mine got raped.

It took that to make me engage in the introspection necessary to see the misogyny in the attitudes I had.

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Response to Earth_First (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:36 PM

96. Is this a feeble attempt at a joke?

I refuse to believe a sentient being would take this away from the conversations.

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Response to Earth_First (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:42 PM

98. Not guilt..responsibility...responsibility to step up and act.

n/t.

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Response to Earth_First (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:43 PM

99. Are you a rapist?

If your answer is no, then why are you so defensive about this very serious topic of rape?

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Response to StarryNite (Reply #99)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:54 PM

102. Exactly.

What are they so defensive about? I wonder...

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #102)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:08 PM

104. Yeah...

makes you wonder. When there is something in the news about a woman that does a horrific deed, I sure don't defend her. I'm outraged by it.

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Response to Earth_First (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:59 PM

103. I just asked my wife

 

what I should take from this discussion and how I should feel about it.

She replied "nothing".

I long ago learned to accept my wife's guidance on all things regarding feminism.

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Response to Earth_First (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:42 PM

106. Where

was it said that ALL men of DU should feel gender guilt? Great way to show you aren't having anymore of it, by creating a whole thread about it.

You don't want to have anymore of it, fine. Don't read threads, comment on threads or start your OWN thread on the subject. It really is that easy.

If you don't want to be part of the solution, get out of the way for those that do.

Sorry your feelings are hurt. As we (by we I do not mean every single person) all know your feeling are what is truly important in rape discussions.

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Response to Earth_First (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:43 PM

107. Men in general are not responsible for the crimes of people like Julian Assange

any more than women in general are responsible for the crimes of people like Casey Anthony.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #107)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:34 PM

108. was there EVER a post here that said that? It's like Bigfoot.. all talk about mythical crap.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #108)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 09:21 AM

118. But we have to put up strawmen, dear bettyellen


Or we would have to discuss the actual topic! Imagine the horrors of that!

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Response to Earth_First (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:46 PM

109. I don't feel gender guilt.

But I do feel gender RAGE towards backwards-minded numbskulls (not you) who want to control people's sex lives and call it "liberty".

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Response to Earth_First (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 01:37 AM

111. I don't think it's about feeling guilty for being a man.

I don't believe I have the capacity to feel guilty for something I have neither done, condoned, or allowed to happen. It's just not in me.

I've been seeing all this talk about "the culture of rape" and can't help but think to myself (and to DU now) this phrase is somehow flawed in its context. To me, culture is something that's handed down from one generation to the next. To a large extent, culture is something that is to be celebrated. There is Rock and Roll culture... Hip Hop culture, Southern culture, Biker culture, and a whole host of other things participated in by large groups of people that can all be considered to be "culture". I don't think rape fits into this category. Rapists hide. They do their thing in private HOPING no one will find out.

I ride a Harley Davidson. Does that make me a "Biker"? Only in the broadest sense. Me? I'm just a guy who rides an iconic motorcycle because he likes the way it looks, feels, and sounds. Conversely, since I've never raped, condoned rape, or allowed a rape to happen; I can't see myself as part of the "rape culture" some people seem to think exists.

I do not know (I THINK) anyone who has ever raped a woman or girl for that matter. I can tell you this; If I ever meet one, or come to understand that someone I know IS one, he won't brag to anyone about his acquaintence with me. If a woman (or girl) were to confide in me that she'd been a victim of rape, I'd be the first to call for the organization of a pitchfork and torch party. We'll sort out guilt or innocence later and if the accusation were proven to be false I'd do whatever it took to make amends to the accused.

There's a post in GD that asks a question about getting by in an insane world. I didn't post in it because I couldn't add anything that hadn't already been said. I get by by considering my place in the Grand Scheme of Things and understanding my ability to influence the direction of Things one way or the other. I'm just a tiny piece in an inconceivably large puzzle; I can only influence the complete puzzle by the way I interact with the pieces nearest to me.

I hate rape to the depths of my soul. My ex-wife is probably the most beautiful, kind, generous woman I've had the good fortune to mingle souls with. She was raped by her own father. I didn't find out about this until our marriage was over after 10 years, and the night I found out I wound up driving into his front yard at about 2 in the morning and calling him out in front of his whole neighborhood AND my Wife's mother. I was still yelling at him when the Deputy pushed my head down to put me in the back seat of his cruiser. That was the only thing I could do in the context of interacting with the puzzle pieces closest to me in the Grand Scheme of Things.

It's not about feeling guilty. It's about understanding that victims of this horrible act have understandably lost trust in humanity as a whole, and men in general. I was forced to come to that understanding by circumstances I had no control over. I wasn't feeling guilty, I was ANGRY.

Don't feel guilty. I don't think anyone is asking you to. I think what we see here is an attempt to make us as men understand that maybe we as men can make a difference by interacting with those closest to us in a way so as to make our counterparts understand how bad the problem is and possibly influence those close to us in a lasting way that will expand like the ripples a raindrop makes in a small pond.

Fuck. I read this and it sounds like a post about ME. That's not my intent. I can only hope whoever reads it will understand that...

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Reply #111)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 02:38 AM

112. You were feeling angry and rightly so.

I would think there would be complete outrage here over that crime. It's surprising and disappointing that some of the men try to turn this around into being an attack on all men. That's ludicrous. Rape leaves a lot of victims in it's wake. Of course the person who was raped has it by far the worst but it also hurts the people who care about them.

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Response to Earth_First (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 03:08 AM

113. I don't think men should feel gender guilt about rape

But education should be early and often about respecting women as human beings. There is often a time in lots of men's lives, especially when they are young, that they do go through a women as "bitches" and "hos" type of thing (especially when they're in a group of other young males). Most grow out of it. I remember going to a screening of the movie "The Accused" in college. All college aged kids there. A group of guys started cheering during that disturbing rape scene. (Yeah they were kicked out). But it left me and several other of my friends (even some of my guy friends who were there) VERY upset and pissed off. These weren't uneducated yokels, these were COLLEGE students. And when I was in college there were enough incidents of campus rape that there were guys who would volunteer to escort any female who needed to go somewhere on campus after dark...you know walking back to your dorm at night from the library, that type of thing. But the fact that this was necessary is scary and hopefully educating boys and young men at an early age about respecting women will go a long way.

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Response to Earth_First (Original post)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 03:59 AM

114. I don't think anyone here is asking you to feel guilty for being a man.

All anyone is asking (I think) is that men try to understand why women are sensitive about this topic, why we may be leery of striking up conversations or making eye contact. Why we may generally be distrustful. I doubt there are many women here who haven't been creeped out at some point or another in their lives, to varying degrees, by a man -- whether a stranger, an acquaintance or family member or a spouse. I myself have been flashed on more than one occasion by strange men, I've had more than one close encounter with dangerous-feeling strangers. Only my sixth sense kept me from being victimized by a serial rapist stalking Northern California. I had so many dates with grabby-handed guys, I can't even count them. I had a 17-year marriage to a much-loved man who nevertheless abused me.

All that is behind me now and my life is at peace, but I still feel nervous going out alone at night, I tend to avert my eyes when I pass a strange man on the street or especially on a trail. It's just an instinct now.

So I think that all I and the other women here are asking from you is that you not belittle the issue. Stop it when you see it.

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Response to Blue_In_AK (Reply #114)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 04:07 AM

115. Well said and thank you n/t

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