HomeLatest ThreadsGreatest ThreadsForums & GroupsMy SubscriptionsMy Posts
DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Main » General Discussion (Forum) » Winning the fiscal cliff ...
Introducing Discussionist: A new forum by the creators of DU

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 01:45 PM

 

Winning the fiscal cliff battle.

So here we are once again watching as government-by-contrived-crisis takes place. A completely, deliberately, purposefully contrived crisis that involves extension of the Bush/Obama tax cuts, a stimulus package, the debt and deficit, oh and continue the ongoing assault on what was once our social safety net.

The conventional thinking seems to be that if Obama can force House Republicans, at least some of them, to break the all powerful but irrelevant Grover Norquist no tax pledge it will be a win for the President and Democrats at large.

But at what cost? Over the years I've watched as spending on the social safety net, along with spending for the social good in this country in general get cut again and again, then cut some more. In good times or bad, Republican or Democrat, such spending has been the favorite target whenever talk about debt, deficits, and one's personal prosperity has come to the fore. Even before I was born, spending for the public good has been under attack. It is a testament to the popularity and durability of the New Deal to see that it is still standing even after all this time, especially the last forty years.

But once again, in order to gain some sort of political gain, a chit on some meaningless scoreboard in the sky, this sort of spending, our social safety net, is going to be sacrificed some more. Really, do we really have to cut and gut programs that do the public, all of us, good?

I say screw scoring a victory for Obama or the Democrats, let's score a victory for us, the American people. Rather than succumbing to the hysterical hype of this latest contrived crisis, we should embrace it, openly, willingly.

Let's go over the fiscal cliff, let's do a three flip, two and a half Greg Louganis dive right off that cliff. Let's do it, LET'S DO IT!

So, the tax rates for all us will go back to Clinton era levels, big whoop. We can turn around and introduce a bill to reinstate those tax cuts for only the middle class and dare the 'Pugs to vote it down. In fact not only can we, but we should take each of these issues and cuts and conundrums and vote for them individually, with a new, nominally more liberal Congress next year. Wow, no need for government-by-contrived-crisis.

Of course there are those folks out there, running around like their hair's on fire. Sure, of course, and who are those people? Oh, yeah, a lot of folks who would benefit by cutting the social safety net, reduce government spending even if it does turn the screws on the "little people" a little tighter. They don't want to go over this contrived cliff because to do so will hurt their bottom line, or at least not enhance it.

But our bottom line, yours and mine and your neighbor's buddy, our bottom line will be directly impacted if we don't go over the cliff. That social safety net will become a bit more tattered, and more people will fall straight through it. It may not show up now, after all, that's why raising the retirement age is a fave, they think that we're not gullible enough to recognize that raising the retirement age by two years is like stealing two years of money we, you and I, paid into SS. That sort of stuff doesn't show up now, but it does show up, and we all pay.

So let's do the bright thing, the right thing, and let's go right over that totally contrived fiscal cliff. Let us win one, not for Obama or the Democrats, but to win one for us. Otherwise, we're going to lose again.

17 replies, 1037 views

Reply to this thread

Back to top Alert abuse

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread

Response to MadHound (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 01:54 PM

1. We've tried every Keynesian tool and none have worked. What new gimmick does anyone propose for

 

government?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to jody (Reply #1)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 02:05 PM

3. Umm, that's the problem, we haven't done Keynes this recession.

 

The stimuli we've had have largely been made up of tax cuts and tax credits, the least powerful of stimulus measures, bar none. Other measures, such as quantitative easing, mainly benefit the financial class.

Meanwhile, our infrastructure is a joke, and social safety net is in shreds, and they want to cut it more.

Worrying about debt and imposing austerity measures during an economic slowdown is a recipe for disaster. Why not try some real Keynesian solutions instead of these half measures we've been doing? Grow the economy then worry about the debt.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MadHound (Reply #3)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 02:13 PM

5. What haven't done that was Keynes this recession? nt

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to jody (Reply #5)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 02:15 PM

6. Could you kindly restate that question,

 

It isn't making sense to me. Thanks.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MadHound (Reply #6)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 02:17 PM

7. You said "we haven't done Keynes this recession." I asked what haven't we done? nt

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to jody (Reply #7)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 02:43 PM

10. Thanks for the restatement,

 

For one, as I mentioned above, our stimuli legislation isn't really Keynesian in nature. The first stimulus consisted of forty five percent tax cuts and tax credits, the least stimulative tool in the box. The most effective stimulus tool is true public spending on infrastructure and job creation, the government as the consumer of last resort. You don't do that by continuing to cut taxes.

The same has occurred with the other stimulus legislation written during the past four years, a modicum of public spending offset by a large amount of tax cuts. This isn't true Keynesian economics, for that go back and look at the legislation of the New Deal, you won't find much in the way of tax cutting.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MadHound (Reply #10)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 02:47 PM

11. Let's take just one thing. You say "our stimuli legislation isn't really Keynesian in nature".

 

If "stimuli legislation" is not Keynesian then what could Congress do to make it Keynesian?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to jody (Reply #11)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 02:54 PM

12. Take the tax cutting mechanisms out of it.

 

When forty five percent of your 787 million dollar stimulus bill is made up of tax cuts and tax credits, you're not getting the most bang for your buck, 354 million dollars is being wasted on the least effective form of economic stimulus.

These stimulus packages simply haven't been powerful enough. If you wanted to make them truly Keynesian, take out all the tax cuts and tax credits, make it all about spending.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MadHound (Reply #12)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 03:12 PM

14. What you say seems like "degree" rather than making the "stimulus bill" un Keynesian. Problem I

 

have with all proposals based on macro-economics is they are not connected to micro-economics.

In science issues between General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics have not all been resolved so it doesn't surprise me that in a non-science like economics there are conflicts between macro-economics and micro-economics.

IMO the "stimulus bills" we discuss can affect such things as manufacturing either by increasing production or creating new products.

I've never read anything that makes me confident that such things will increase manufacturing except for a few special cases.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MadHound (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 02:03 PM

2. If the Dems get snookered AGAIN...

... by these scumbags, it isn't by accident. Of that, we can be sure.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to 99Forever (Reply #2)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 02:07 PM

4. Oh it's never an accident.

 

These actions have been deliberately plotted out, after all, it is the game of politics. Trouble is, playing politics as a game screws the rest of us.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MadHound (Reply #4)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 02:20 PM

8. Ya mean to tell me...

.. that the screwing we've been getting hasn't all been coming from the all powerful, can't be stopped in any way, shape, or form, evil Republicans?

Shocking I tell ya!


(do I need that sarcasm thingie?)

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MadHound (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 02:35 PM

9. An enthusiastic K&R

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MadHound (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 03:04 PM

13. Obama won - twice - get over it

yup

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to jpak (Reply #13)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 06:18 PM

16. Good, why don't he and the Democrats act like they won,

 

Better yet, why don't they act like actual old school Dems rather than moderate 'Pugs ready to slash and burn in the name of winning?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MadHound (Reply #16)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 06:37 PM

17. We have heard this for the last 4 years

I guess we will have to endure another four....

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MadHound (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 03:56 PM

15. The house republicans will not compromise on anything. They are in full obstruction mode.

Boehner will not work with the President because the teabaggers won't allow him to do anything.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink

Reply to this thread