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Sat Dec 1, 2012, 12:19 PM

Sexual harassment is not a joke. It's not ok. Playing along DOES NOT HELP.

It may get you rewarded by the overwhelming majority of people who still don't recognize the patriarchy and all its insidious methods of maintaining women's lower status, but that positive feedback still doesn't make it ok.

49 replies, 5198 views

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Reply Sexual harassment is not a joke. It's not ok. Playing along DOES NOT HELP. (Original post)
redqueen Dec 2012 OP
Vox Moi Dec 2012 #1
TeamsterDem Dec 2012 #3
spooky3 Dec 2012 #5
TeamsterDem Dec 2012 #7
Vox Moi Dec 2012 #6
TeamsterDem Dec 2012 #8
left coaster Dec 2012 #10
TeamsterDem Dec 2012 #11
seabeyond Dec 2012 #18
Party Favors Dec 2012 #19
etherealtruth Dec 2012 #34
TeamsterDem Dec 2012 #35
JDPriestly Dec 2012 #9
freshwest Dec 2012 #44
Posteritatis Dec 2012 #27
intaglio Dec 2012 #31
Vox Moi Dec 2012 #41
Sen. Walter Sobchak Dec 2012 #40
seabeyond Dec 2012 #17
discntnt_irny_srcsm Dec 2012 #33
femrap Dec 2012 #22
Marrah_G Dec 2012 #49
Little Star Dec 2012 #2
Brigid Dec 2012 #4
CrispyQ Dec 2012 #13
wryter2000 Dec 2012 #12
seabeyond Dec 2012 #15
Brigid Dec 2012 #20
seabeyond Dec 2012 #14
CrispyQ Dec 2012 #16
pinboy3niner Dec 2012 #21
seabeyond Dec 2012 #24
pinboy3niner Dec 2012 #37
seabeyond Dec 2012 #38
pinboy3niner Dec 2012 #39
freshwest Dec 2012 #48
Chorophyll Dec 2012 #26
Little Star Dec 2012 #28
RKP5637 Dec 2012 #30
Tsiyu Dec 2012 #45
ismnotwasm Dec 2012 #23
Chorophyll Dec 2012 #25
darkangel218 Dec 2012 #29
RKP5637 Dec 2012 #32
Deep13 Dec 2012 #36
Daemonaquila Dec 2012 #42
redqueen Dec 2012 #43
Daemonaquila Dec 2012 #46
redqueen Dec 2012 #47

Response to redqueen (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 12:36 PM

1. Sexual harassment is not exclusive to men

Women do it to men as well, especially in the workplace.
I've been on the receiving end of sexual harassment more than once and I'm a guy.
Just saying.

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Response to Vox Moi (Reply #1)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 12:44 PM

3. It does but not on near the scale nor with near the outcomes that it does against women

It's not any "better" to do it to a man, but it's not really a horse apiece given that it happens to women much more often. Unfortunately.

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #3)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 01:17 PM

5. true, according to EEOC statistics - and also, men are frequently the perps against other men.

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Response to spooky3 (Reply #5)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 01:21 PM

7. I wasn't familiar with that fact but it's interesting regarding male-on-male harassment

A lot of Teamsters and union folks won't agree with me on this but I have always liked well-stated corporate policies on fraternization and harassment because they reduce gray areas and thus what some knuckle-draggers think of as "horse play" when in fact it's not even close to being an innocent thing. No policy will eliminate something like that, but it does go a long way toward removing any doubts as to what the company's policy is ... provided of course that they enforce it, and enforce it equally.

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #3)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 01:21 PM

6. Yes, more often to women but ...

... often enough by women to undermine the characterization of sexual harassment as a problem with males.
People in a position of power: physical or managerial or simply weight of numbers are often guilty of harassment and that harassment can be sexual or racial or some other way of expressing dominance.
The problem is abuse of power. If in today's society men are more often in positions of power then men are more likely to abuse others. To my experience, a woman in a position of power is no exception.
Yes, sexual harassment is rampant and males do it more often than women but I think that to focus on sexual harassment as a problem attributable to men is counterproductive.



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Response to Vox Moi (Reply #6)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 01:23 PM

8. Agreed, it's never acceptable and I didn't intend to disagree with you

Just pointed out which way it's statistically more prevalent, although that doesn't mean one way is "better" than the other. Wrong is wrong in my book.

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #8)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 01:35 PM

10. But the important thing is that Vox M. turned the focus away from the BIGGER problem..

The one that WOMEN face..

Classic.

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Response to left coaster (Reply #10)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 01:40 PM

11. No he didn't. nt

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Response to left coaster (Reply #10)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 01:52 PM

18. yes. i am betting not even a significant number when it is street harassment. almost exclusively

women that are harassed on the street.

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Response to left coaster (Reply #10)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 01:57 PM

19. Thank you for this reply!

I have been on the receiving end of this abuse three times at three different workplaces. I can give my personal testimony as to what happened, and how it played out. Not once was I victimized by another woman.

Did you have a manager "conveniently" not book a room for you while at a sold out convention and retaliated when I wouldn't bunk with his ass? Did you have a manager who couldn't keep his hands to himself and thought my thigh was an appropriate resting place under a conference room table during sales meetings? I could go on and on...

Real life.
Real talk.

The ramifications are no joke.

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Response to left coaster (Reply #10)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 02:55 PM

34. That is the only possible explanation

Minimize, minimize and normalize ....

What the hell has happened to DU?

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Response to etherealtruth (Reply #34)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 02:58 PM

35. It's not the only one, but it's a possible one, yes. Claiming knowledge of someone's intent

is a foolhardy enterprise

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Response to Vox Moi (Reply #6)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 01:33 PM

9. Yes. It is about abuse of power.

The worst is when a man abuses a woman in the workplace, and then the other women working there point a finger at the woman.

I have seen that, been the victim of that. You feel so alone and lost. When one woman is harassed, all women are harassed.

And it is particularly despicable when men pick on very young women. My daughter could hardly walk home from high school without grown men yelling at her. She didn't really understand what it was about and felt terribly ashamed. It caused her to be even shyer than she was.

It's simply bullying. It is cruel.

Don't touch women's legs. Don't grab their arms and shoulders. Just because a woman is a foot shorter than you does not mean that she wants your arm around her or your knees next to hers.

It's a power trip. That's all it is. And we women need to work together to remind men that it doesn't gain them respect or power to harass women. Same for the harassment of men. It's just a power trip. (And men do get harassed.)

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #9)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 12:00 AM

44. I got into fights with my co-workers who thought it was okay to yell lewd remarks to little girls...

Girls in elementary school as we drove through their neighborhood and they were walking to their homes from the school bus stop. They said it was just fun as the little girls ran away.

I yelled at them how would it feel if it was their daughter. Well, that just made it all different for a minute. There is always a lot more history. Oh, the stories I could tell.

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Response to Vox Moi (Reply #6)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 02:40 PM

27. "This damned sprained ankle's just as bad as your severed arm!" (nt)

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Response to Vox Moi (Reply #6)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 02:54 PM

31. You sound a bit of an apologist

"... often enough by women ..." "... males do it more often than women ..." what sort of proportions are we talking here? One woman for every 100 men? One for every 1,000? One for every 100,000? What are you trying to imply? You should be saying "... rarely by women ..." and "... males do it overwhelmingly more often than women ..." if you are to be in accord with reality. I suspect you might be willing to say something like "someone I knew worked in a garment factory/kitchen/electronics assembly line and the women harassed him mercilessly," if you do cite the factory otherwise you might be taking MRA bullshit seriously.

"People in a position of power: physical or managerial or simply weight of numbers are often guilty of harassment and that harassment can be sexual or racial or some other way of expressing dominance ..." Funny I do not see many women in positions of power, physical or managerial although your weight of numbers criteria might be valid, but as noted above - citation needed.

What you seem to miss, or try to excuse, is that the type of harassment is almost exclusively male on female. It happens on the street, in clubs and pubs, at work and on holiday. The demeaning of women as only being worthy of admiration for their looks and sexuality is so common we hardly notice it.

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Response to intaglio (Reply #31)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:40 PM

41. No Apology at all. Just sayin' that RedQueen's post was counterproductive.

The post introduces the video of a particular set of offensive behaviors as a problem exclusive attributable to males (not true).
The post fails to explain exactly what 'sexual harassment' refers to. Just the scenarios on the video? Other behaviors?
I don't think the video pretended to be an all-encompassing representation of what sexual harassment is, but what subset is RedQueen referring to?
-------------
The term 'sexual harassment', used without qualification, leads to the impression that sexual harassment is something that only men do.
I'm not saying RedQueen meant that, it reads that way to me.
I am saying that it's hard to have productive discussions on this if the opening premise is 'Your Fault".

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Response to TeamsterDem (Reply #3)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 05:54 PM

40. Comparing notes with other thirty-something unmarried men...

I think there is a whole lot more of it that anyone would guess.

All of us had multiple experiences with extremely aggressive women in the workplace. There are a handful of women I dread traveling with for this reason since that seems to be when they get their confidence up, or just really drunk.

But the only cases I can think of in my career where things really busted open was when a wife or girlfriend decided that a parking lot confrontation with their mans admirer was a good idea. Otherwise everything stays hushed because at best you're going to be laughed at for complaining, assumed to be lying or... well I think Michael Crichton covered it nicely in "Disclosure".

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Response to Vox Moi (Reply #1)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 01:50 PM

17. fine.... i absolutely support any man being harassed. wrong is wrong. nt

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #17)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 02:54 PM

33. +1 :)

Fair is fair. Bravo.

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Response to Vox Moi (Reply #1)


Response to Vox Moi (Reply #1)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 12:57 PM

49. It's wrong which ever gender is doing it

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 12:37 PM

2. Playing along DOES NOT HELP it encourages egregious behavior and...

Some people push boundaries when others play along. In other words, playing along equals enabling.

I wish people could understand the role they play when they enable other's bad behavior. HH had a lot of help getting himself ppr'd, he had many enablers. Will the lesson be learned or will the enablers keep on enabling?

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 12:52 PM

4. A few months ago,

I posted a thread about a minor harassment incident I experienced at a bus stop. I got some criticism for dealing with the situation by shutting down the creep immediately. I still think that is the right thing to do.

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Response to Brigid (Reply #4)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 01:47 PM

13. Oh you can tell the creeps on the bus.

They gauge every woman who gets on & as they look about the bus they never look at men. Lot of creeps in cars driving by, too, as they ogle a woman standing at a bus stop. Some days I'd like to stand there with my middle finger up.

You were absolutely correct to shut it down.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 01:43 PM

12. I love those guys!

I want to date every one of them.

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Response to wryter2000 (Reply #12)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 01:49 PM

15. lol. i love 'em also, they are the cutest. for real. nt

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Response to wryter2000 (Reply #12)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 02:00 PM

20. I love these guys too!

Most excellent PSA.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 01:49 PM

14. one of my very favorite videos on womens issues. nt

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 01:50 PM

16. I love them all!

This is what real men sound like.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 02:03 PM

21. We had a discussion here about a cartoon a while back

And some still didn't get it.

The cartoon:

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Response to pinboy3niner (Reply #21)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 02:33 PM

24. and this... is one of my favorite cartoons about this issue. thanks. nt

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #24)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 03:09 PM

37. I had to save that cartoon, sb. It was just too good.

We--men and women together--shall overcome.

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Response to pinboy3niner (Reply #37)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 03:14 PM

38. ahhh

you are the best.



and it is naptime, lol.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #38)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 04:00 PM

39. Sleep well, sweet Princess. :) nt

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Response to pinboy3niner (Reply #37)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 12:53 PM

48. Pinboy, thanks for that. From someone who's been there.

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Response to pinboy3niner (Reply #21)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 02:39 PM

26. That's awesome. Thank you for it.

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Response to pinboy3niner (Reply #21)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 02:48 PM

28. Bingo

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Response to pinboy3niner (Reply #21)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 02:53 PM

30. Excellent!!! n/t

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Response to pinboy3niner (Reply #21)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 02:12 AM

45. Yeah, that is the best, reminds me of fear

I remember walking into a bar looking for a friend I was supposed to pick up. It was at the beach on a street with a few bars, and I wasn't sure in which one he'd be.

I walked in and scanned the room, and not seeing him, walked back out.

"Well FUCK you then!!!!" several guys yelled in a rage.

It really frightened me at the time. Didn't make my day, as I was afraid they would follow me out and attack me they were so enraged.

We women ( and many men ) have so many stories of this kind of ugliness.

But "good girls" play along to get along, right?...........NOT


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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 02:11 PM

23. I love this

Thank you

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 02:38 PM

25. Thanks redqueen.

The rape-culture trollery going on here over the last few days is one of the most depressing things I've ever witnessed.

A fine bunch of progressives.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 02:49 PM

29. Thanks for posting this.

Nothing will ever change if we allow assholes act the way they want. All women should stand up for themselves and not tolerate any kind of abuse. Like redqueen said, playing along doesn't help, only validated their behaviour and encourages them to do it again.
The same of course stands for men who are being bullied or abused by others. No one should put up with it, we live in a free country, we have rights and we have the possibility to start over again , if we must leave an abusive partner.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 02:54 PM

32. K&R !!! n/t

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 03:03 PM

36. No, it's not. nt

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:57 PM

42. Except one woman's definition of harassment is another's definition of friendly banter.

I've been in the receiving end of this nonsense. A male former-prof of mine was joking around with me at a conference. A female friend decided to take umbrage over it later, casting me somehow as a victim. I was appalled. There are things that dear friends and colleagues get to joke about - sexual harassment requires context, and I'm sick of some other women reacting to any damned thing with sexual content or overtones.

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Response to Daemonaquila (Reply #42)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:26 PM

43. Was she within earshot?

If she heard the story from you, and she was offended, I don't know why you think that translates to her "casting you somehow as a victim".

If she was within earshot when the "friendly banter" was going on, and she was offended, then he needs to be more careful about who he "banters" with.

I'm sick of some women making men think whatever they consider "friendly banter" is ok with all women, just because they know a woman who doesn't mind it. Or doesn't seem to mind it, because a lot of women just put up with it without saying anything, despite not being ok with it.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #43)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 02:05 PM

46. Get. Over. It.

Of course she heard it herself.

A person doesn't appreciate an overheard conversation that doesn't involve anything regarding them personally? Tough. The rest of the world has no obligation to spare her or his widdle feelings. Expecting people to self-censor to that level is nuts - and downright offensive. Unless the comments are full-out hate speech ("n****r" etc.), there is no basis for anyone to do more than make a personal judgment about whether they'd like to hang around with the speaker in the future.

Speech regarding sexual topics is no different than political, religious, or other speech. Right-wing freaks in the office spouting hate against liberals, LGBT, etc. are no more or less obnoxious than sexual harassers. I'm far more likely to care about someone spouting Limbaugh around me, than I am if someone comments about my ass. That goes for most of the women I hang out with - feminists who are self-confident enough that we don't consider a few blue comments worth remarking on. We have no interest in living in a giant safe space.

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Response to Daemonaquila (Reply #46)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 03:06 PM

47. Whatever you and your friends think, fewer and fewer women are willing to tolerate male chauvinist

pigs.

So enjoy their unfettered bloviations while you still can.

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