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Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:09 AM

Will the Ivy League schools make it through the on-line education scams?

With the success of education in a box schemes and for-profit diploma mills, I wonder if the !% instutions like Harvard, Yale, and Princeton have exceeded their sell by date and be around in 5 yrs.

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Reply Will the Ivy League schools make it through the on-line education scams? (Original post)
CK_John Dec 2012 OP
Earth_First Dec 2012 #1
pipoman Dec 2012 #2
CK_John Dec 2012 #3
no_hypocrisy Dec 2012 #4
CK_John Dec 2012 #5
no_hypocrisy Dec 2012 #13
Nikia Dec 2012 #16
Renew Deal Dec 2012 #9
pipoman Dec 2012 #10
WilmywoodNCparalegal Dec 2012 #6
CK_John Dec 2012 #8
TM99 Dec 2012 #11
HiPointDem Dec 2012 #17
TM99 Dec 2012 #19
HiPointDem Dec 2012 #20
TM99 Dec 2012 #23
HiPointDem Dec 2012 #24
TM99 Dec 2012 #25
HiPointDem Dec 2012 #26
TM99 Dec 2012 #27
HiPointDem Dec 2012 #28
jwirr Dec 2012 #15
aandegoons Dec 2012 #7
yardwork Dec 2012 #12
Barack_America Dec 2012 #14
white_wolf Dec 2012 #18
amandabeech Dec 2012 #21
white_wolf Dec 2012 #22
amandabeech Dec 2012 #29

Response to CK_John (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:15 AM

1. These places are much more than an education to the top elite...

It's a lifestyle.

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Response to CK_John (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:20 AM

2. Why would you wonder that?

Ivy League schools will be the last effected by online coarses. People who go to Ivy League schools go because they are Ivy League schools. Further, to characterize online coarses as "scams" is nonsense. Unless you are talking about some non-accredited actual scams, most online coarses/classes these days are offered by fully accredited colleges and universities.

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Response to pipoman (Reply #2)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:30 AM

3. Why not?

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Response to pipoman (Reply #2)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:39 AM

4. Students also go there for lifelong associations through clubs and fraternities/sororities.

Success in the business world is often dependent upon with whom you've gone to school.

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Response to no_hypocrisy (Reply #4)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:45 AM

5. Only if you have a job and when 50% of college grads are unemployed

I begin to wonder about necessity of these institutions.

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Response to CK_John (Reply #5)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:05 AM

13. Here's the thing. If you're at Harvard or Yale,

your buddies will try to bring you into their business or ventures on a lifelong basis. You aren't likely to be unemployed if you're with a certain clique.

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Response to CK_John (Reply #5)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 03:23 PM

16. It's not 50% for those from top universities

If they are unemployed for more than a few months, they are probably not using all their resources or being flexible enough. If you go to a good college, participate in extracurricula activities,have several friends or more there, develop a good relationship with professor(s), visit the college career center throughout your college career, get internship(s) and/or useful volunteer work, and be willing to relocate you will have a greater than 99% chance of finding employment within a few months of graduation. If one or more of those things is not true, your chances will go down. If none is true, you probably are better with an online degree.
I do think that bottom quartile colleges could be in trouble, but top colleges will probably be immune.

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Response to pipoman (Reply #2)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:08 AM

9. SUNY in NY runs a large online program.

So do many others.

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Response to Renew Deal (Reply #9)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:11 AM

10. Exactly, Kansas state institutions

almost all offer online degrees. Both KU and K State are respected institutions whose degrees are anything but scams.

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Response to CK_John (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 08:57 AM

6. There's a huge difference between U of Phoenix-type classes and legitimate online

programs offered by accredited universities or colleges.

While there are a lot of negatives to be had with the diploma mills, I have nothing but good things to say about online education offered by Coursera. Coursera, in case you don't know, offers free classes from top universities (Vanderbilt, Stanford, Duke, etc.) in a variety of subjects ranging from computing to health care.

Some of its courses are under consideration for actually being able to grant credit. For example, I am taking a class from Coursera in reasoning and arguing. Though I've taken classes like this before, it is an excellent refresher course and in fact has given me a few more tidbits of information. This class alone has over 170,000 students worldwide.

Not everyone can afford or meets the eligibility criteria for the Ivies or other top 10 schools. Everyone, however, should be afforded a good education. Considering that many of the students at the Ivies or other top 10 schools are there not because of merit but because of 'legacy' or money, Coursera is one small way to get a top-level education - even if there are no credits.

But the class does require some work. There is a textbook, there are video lectures, there are quizzes, and discussion groups with fellow students as well. At the end of the course, whoever finishes and completes all assignments satisfactorily will receive a certificate from the instructors.

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Response to WilmywoodNCparalegal (Reply #6)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:07 AM

8. I think you are mixing education with making a buck. When guys like

Murdock says there is billions to made in education. I worry. This can only be done by removing brick and mortar institutions.

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Response to WilmywoodNCparalegal (Reply #6)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:28 AM

11. Misinformation

Yes, I get that many, including myself, are upset about how private institutions (and state ones for that matter) are more concerned with money than with education these days. And don't get me started on the private banks and the student loan scandal of our time.

However, with that said, the University of Phoenix is an accredited institution that offers legitimate online and offline courses and degrees. It is not a diploma mill.

My undergraduate degree was from a small private liberal arts college on the US News & World Reports top schools. I then got my first Masters at an Ivy League institution. A few years after that I earned two degrees from the University of Phoenix, one in clinical mental health counseling and the other an MBA with a concentration in entrepreneurship. I went straight into an excellent state university's Doctoral program in psychology where I finished my professional training. I have also done several online programs with certs in various subjects including electronics and computer programming.

The University of Phoenix was, at the time I did my studies, the only stand-alone terminal Masters at a private institution with CACREP accreditation which it has maintained in good standing to the present day. I was able to start a private practice in psychotherapy with that degree well before finishing a Doctorate. That gave me an opportunity to start supervision in the therapeutic schools that normally would have required waiting until I had finished my Doctorate.

I had bad teachers and good teachers at all of these institutions. I ran into good and bad administrative decisions as well at all of these institutions. Each had their strengths and their weakness. For someone as self-motivated as I have always been, the adult education model at the UoP was ideal for me while I worked and played gigs.

Other than correcting this bit of misinformation, I agree with the bulk of your response. The key to a good education is solely with the student. Online education can be excellent but it does depend upon the student's learning style. Are they self-directed? Do they mind not having actual face-to-face contact? If they intend to go further with graduate or post-graduate work, they have to make sure that their online program is regionally accredited by the DOE.

Coursera is excellent. Have you also checked out The Saylor Foundation? It is completely open-source material with full 'majors' in various subjects. Check it out.

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Response to TM99 (Reply #11)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 05:09 PM

17. it's a diploma mill funded with taxpayer dollars in the form of student loans.

 

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #17)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:41 PM

19. It is not a diploma mill....period.

A diploma mill actually does mean something. It is an unaccredited institution. Often there is not a physical location just a PO Box. It often does not require classes but merely accepts cash directly for a degree based on 'life experience' or a short paper on a topic. There are hundreds of these online ranging from Bible colleges to 'alternative' health programs like the now defunct Clayton College.

The University of Phoenix is NOT a diploma mill. I paid for real classes which I attended for several years. I had approved internships at places as diverse as the Arizona State Mental Hospital to Jewish Family & Children Services. I had professors from a variety of settings and educational backgrounds depending upon the degree. From a psychologist who specialized in CBT and was educated at UCLA to an economics professor who was educated at Northwestern and also taught at Thunderbird.

Being CACREP accredited, I had no problems after my coursework with passing the National Clinical Mental Health Counseling Examination . My degree was as valid as any others regionally accredited degree, and with my 3.98 GPA, internship references, and Certified Clinical Mental Health Counselor (CCMHC) credentials, I had no problems getting in to a competitive doctoral program, completing my coursework, internships, and getting licensed.

So, if you want to argue that it like just about every other college & university in the last decade now provides diplomas with outrageous levels of taxpayer funded student loans, then sure, let's talk about that. If you want to discuss howl the sociopathy of corporate America has taken over education at the undergraduate and graduate levels, then sure, let's talk about that. I received my degrees almost 30 years ago, and much has changed since then.

Educational expenses have grown to be outrageous. Student Loan policies and procedures are draconian and a new form of usury. And with the rise of the internet, there are, as I said, a lot of real diploma mills not worth a damn. For more information on this, go here:

http://www2.ed.gov/students/prep/college/diplomamills/diploma-mills.html

But please stop muddying a legitimate discussion about the problems with higher education in the US right now and discussions about online education with emotional hyperbole and inaccurate information.

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Response to TM99 (Reply #19)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 12:51 AM

20. we'll agree to disagree.

 

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #20)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 02:02 AM

23. Afraid not

I won't agree to disagree.

Yours is an erroneous opinion. Mine is a statement of fact based on proper definitions and actual experience.

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Response to TM99 (Reply #23)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 02:28 AM

24. I disagree. But you can keep your belief in my erroneousness while agreeing to disagree.

 

and i can keep my belief in your erroneousness.

I take your point about accredited v. non-accredited, but I have reasons for continuing to call UP a diploma mill and rather than get into a discussion that would be acrimonious I'll keep them to myself.

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #24)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 04:47 AM

25. It is not belief

if you are unwilling to discuss freely why you stated what you did.

Fine, I have no problem respecting your decision not to discuss it further, however, please don't go around stating untruths, half-truths, or out-right errors concerning the University of Phoenix and diploma mills if you are not willing to share the reasons and be open to discussion & even counter-arguments.

I am not blindly defending the University of Phoenix as I do know as an alum the very real issues that have developed there in the last decade in particular. But having been educated at a variety of different institutions ranging from ones like UoP to an Ivy League, there are problems today that are far bigger than any one single institution that all face and that negatively impact learners today.

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Response to TM99 (Reply #25)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 04:58 AM

26. it is a belief, just as belief in gravity. the belief may be true, may be false, but it's a belief.

 

agreeing to disagree has nothing to do with truth value of either party's beliefs.

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #26)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 05:19 AM

27. Semantic bullshit at this point

If you aren't willing to actually discuss or argue your points, then yes, you are asking me and others to take on 'faith' that your 'beliefs' are factual true and mine are factual false.

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Response to TM99 (Reply #27)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 07:23 AM

28. not asking you to do anything. i don't care if you agree with me, just trying to end

 

the conversation civilly. not sure why you can't drop it.

so bye.

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Response to WilmywoodNCparalegal (Reply #6)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:28 AM

15. We have a system of local state colleges that offer many quality on-line classes that give many

rural students access to education.

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Response to CK_John (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 09:03 AM

7. I have on child who is an ivy league student.

And another who went to a top ten. There is so much more to those schools than some piece of paper.

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Response to CK_John (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:30 AM

12. lol!

I think they'll be fine. The 1%ers have no intention of giving their kids diploma mill degrees. That's for the little people.

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Response to CK_John (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 11:07 AM

14. They're starting their own on-line degree programs.

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Response to CK_John (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 05:11 PM

18. Yes they will. Because people would sell their souls to get in.

A law degree from Harvard opens up a lot more doors than even a degree from other similarly ranked institutions. NYU is a great law school, but Harvard is still much more impressive on a resume. Especially when you are trying for that first job.

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Response to white_wolf (Reply #18)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 01:42 AM

21. NYU is a very good school. I've known several NYU Law grads,

and they're all very bright, very competent attorneys.

Harvard opens up more doors than NYU, but there are a couple of other law schools at that level. Harvard's rivals, Yale and Stanford are equally good. On the West Coast, Stanford has a phenomenal reputation and opens as many doors as Harvard, perhaps more. Yale is probably better than any other school for those students who intend to teach or go into non-profits or government service, for what I've seen. Columbia is also very good, and almost always in the top 5.

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Response to amandabeech (Reply #21)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 01:50 AM

22. NYU's my dream law school.

I really want to work in New York so it would be great for me, but I'm not sure I'll have the numbers for it. However, I hope to have the numbers to get into one of the top 14 which would still allow me to work in New York. I have heard Yale is the best for public interest work. This is just hearsay, but I've heard Harvard is better for getting jobs in "biglaw."

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Response to white_wolf (Reply #22)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 11:55 PM

29. Believe me, Yalies get all the "big law" that they want. n/t

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